Video & Multimedia
Related: About this forumSHOCK VIDEO: CA touchscreen machine gives Sanders vote to another candidate
Computer malfunction or intentional software shenanigans? Either way, we need to fix America's infrastructure, starting with voting machines!
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="
Faux pas
(14,644 posts)and
pnwmom
(108,955 posts)On the county elections website, you can see a demonstration of their optical scanning system here. (The second video, where it says "Voting System Demonstration."
http://www.acgov.org/rov/videos.htm
And here you can see Alameda employees getting training on this machine -- in 2011.
billhicks76
(5,082 posts)Trust me...flipping a vote doesn't just happen. When was the last time your ATM flipped numbers incorrectly. The machines are very similar and made by the same companies. Banks never have errors unless human eror but voting machines always do??? By the way CA Sec Of State said there are 1.25 million uncounted votes still. Thats amazing. Bernie was down by 400,000 when it was said.
pnwmom
(108,955 posts)The machine shown next to the "Alameda county" mail-in box isn't an optical scanner.
So I think that little scene was staged.
On the county elections website, you can see a demonstration of their optical scanning system here. (The second video, where it says "Voting System Demonstration."
http://www.acgov.org/rov/videos.htm
billhicks76
(5,082 posts)JimDandy
(7,318 posts)certified and or stored. A state I used to live in would radomly pull voting equipment from the counties right before an election, and check them for calibration problems.
I'm not sure what this video is attempting to prove (calibration error? deliberate stealing of votes?), but it's doubful this is an actual voter on election day, as the setting looks off and most jurisdictions prohibit voters from using cameras to take screenshots of their vote. Deliberate vote switching or not, this video instantly conveys the real problem our country has gotten itself into by trusting our elections to hackable, problematic electronic voting machines, instead of verifiable paper ballots.
Could Alameda County be using optical scanners for the mail in ballots and electronic voting machines on election day?
pnwmom
(108,955 posts)has a link to a demo showing what voters will encounter when they go to the polls -- paper ballots that they will mark themselves and then insert into the optical scanner.
Here is a link to the demo:
http://www.acgov.org/rov/votingsystemdemo.htm
Here is a link to the elections website that connects to the above link:
http://www.acgov.org/rov/videos.htm
JimDandy
(7,318 posts)ETA: I see now the link was in your first post, but I somehow missed it.
DetlefK
(16,423 posts)Semiconductor-electronics age because of diffusion of the doping-atoms, magnetically stored data becomes corrupted from thermal noise, the glue holding the glass of the touchscreen deteriorates and leads to uneven contacts...
Do you know how old those touchscreens are? I bet, 5 years minimum.
Have you ever used a 10-year-old touchscreen? A 10-year-old computer?
billhicks76
(5,082 posts)I guess they just aren't maintained like ATMs ?
DetlefK
(16,423 posts)And there is only so much you can maintain without professional help from the company. You can handle data-corruption, but aging will always happen unless you solder in new microchips and glue in new glass-sheets for the touchscreen.
billhicks76
(5,082 posts)DetlefK
(16,423 posts)+ very fast
+ can hold data for long time
- Ages not with time but depending on how much it's actually in use. Bad for situations where you regularly write and delete huge amounts of data.
- expensive
billhicks76
(5,082 posts)JimDandy
(7,318 posts)The failure rate for touchscreen election machine was unacceptably high in the 2000s when I was involved with their use. Both jurisdictions where I lived back then ended up dumping them in favor of optically scanned paper ballots
missingthebigdog
(1,233 posts)If this were a widespread issue, it seems Mr. Steinberg would have made a considerably better showing.
notadmblnd
(23,720 posts)that just happened to screw Sanders and help Hillary.
missingthebigdog
(1,233 posts)notadmblnd
(23,720 posts)that Sanders should/would have received.
Response to notadmblnd (Reply #3)
Post removed
missingthebigdog
(1,233 posts)I am REALLY going to miss that after the 16th.
phazed0
(745 posts)Change your handle if you don't like it.
missingthebigdog
(1,233 posts)Think I'll keep it.
phazed0
(745 posts)Or are you just going to drop your juvenile finger pointing?
PatrynXX
(5,668 posts)it was a Joke. I've been name called. That wasn't name calling. Besides us bullied people tended to crack jokes over it and not tape the bully's mouth shut . Hey 4 eyes. Oh ahem sorry you didn't notice I have 6. Bifocals. Now we have no lines I'm a fly Shut them up real fast Don't have any idea why that was hidden but I've given up on the jury system. It's nothing but kids. It works about 50/50 of the time.
JimDandy
(7,318 posts)Fuddnik
(8,846 posts)This place needs a control tower.
JimDandy
(7,318 posts)highprincipleswork
(3,111 posts)Tortmaster
(382 posts)Well, then the game is afoot! Grab your revolver, Watson, we're needed in California!
alain2112
(25 posts)A conspiracy so vast, encompassing hundreds of thousands if not millions of people, not one of whom has ever divulged his terrible secret, yet foiled by the discovery and release of this video. I tremble for the future of America, nay for the entire Free World. BradBlog! O, BradBlog! Come save us, Mighty BradBlog!
notadmblnd
(23,720 posts)As I said just one more coincidence in a long line of coincidences. If HIllary wasn't rich, I'd tell her to buy lottery tickets, she's that damn lucky.
Omaha Steve
(99,494 posts)Maybe to somebody else...
missingthebigdog
(1,233 posts)Perhaps this machine had a glitch and was taken out of service.
Perhaps voters are smart enough to call somebody's attention to the fact that a machine is broken.
Interesting that there was no attempt by whomever made this video to attempt any of the other candidates to see what would happen.
Omaha Steve
(99,494 posts)Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)And it keeps getting dismissed as nothing.
I wonder, if the same machines take votes from Clinton in November, and deliver them to, I dunno, Gary Johnson, will you be as dismissive and accepting of the problem? Oh. Just a glitch.
Fort a moment, get over the candidates. These machiense and hteir perpetual "glitches" are a real problem for our democracy, regardless of who you support.
JimDandy
(7,318 posts)JohnnyRingo
(18,618 posts)First of all, the voter walked up to the machine and immediately began voting without inserting an activation card. Presumably he could have voted on all the machines. He had his iPhone ready to record the act for some reason. Second, anyone with half a brain and one eye would have noticed that the vote was recorded incorrectly and report it. You're right that he oddly didn't try any other options.
This was staged for entertainment purposes and hi-jacked by Bernie people as "proof" that Sanders won in California. I'd wonder who'd fall for this obvious prank, but you know...
pnwmom
(108,955 posts)the orange box for the mail-in ballots says this was in Alameda County. But Alameda County's website says they use paper ballots and optical scanners -- which makes sense because mail-in ballots and voting-day ballots can then both be scanned on the same machine.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)I'd say the same people that fell for this: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=2164332
See this: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=2166263
hopemountain
(3,919 posts)precincts and counties. less traceable.
also, the misinformed volunteer workers who insisted on only giving out provisional ballots to voters who brought in their mail in ballots to exchange for vote in person.
they are wiley - those coyotes.
OldRedneck
(1,397 posts)I'm a member of the electoral board in a rural Virginia county.
If someone shows up with an absentee/mail-in ballot at our polls and wants to cast a live ballot, claiming they did not mail in their ballot, our poll workers are instructed to give them a provisional . . . because . . . HOW DO I KNOW THE ABSENTEE/MAIL-IN BALLOT YOU HAVE IS YOURS? HOW DO I KNOW YOU DID NOT CAST YOUR ABSENTEE/MAIL-IN BALLOT?
You cast a provisional. The day after the election, the registrar now has a record of who received absentee/mail-in ballots, who returned them, and who has them still outstanding. If yours is one of those still outstanding, we count you provisional. If your absentee/mail-in ballot has been cast, we toss your provisional.
This situation happens 2-3 times in our county at every election.
hopemountain
(3,919 posts)my post is specifically in reference to the voting machine in yesterday's primary. and the report of provisional ballots being given to person's who brought in their mail in no party or independent ballots and wanted to exchange for a party specific primary ballot. poll workers were supposed to have been instructed to exchange per the request of the voter.
when someone brings in a ballot - obviously, they have not yet voted. unless someone was mailed duplicate ballots - does this happen?
no? did not think so.
seriously, how would it even be possible for someone to bring in their ballot and somehow have already sent it in and voted?
JimDandy
(7,318 posts)in their ballot along with the mail-back envelope having their name on it, they could spoil the ballot and receive a new regular ballot.
Response to hopemountain (Reply #88)
JohnnyRingo This message was self-deleted by its author.
JohnnyRingo
(18,618 posts)Do you think all the other Bernie voters are too stupid to see this obvious alignment problem and report it?
I don't.
Omaha Steve
(99,494 posts)rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)How about this one: http://www.gregpalast.com/california-stolen-sanders-right-nowspecial-bulletin-greg-palast/
And here's what Pres Carter had to say: "In the context of the Carter Centres work monitoring electoral processes around the globe, Carter also disclosed his opinion that in the US we have one of the worst election processes in the world, and its almost entirely because of the excessive influx of money, he said referring to lack of controls over private campaign donations."
Where did this "anything to win" mentality for Democrats come from?
GoneFishin
(5,217 posts)Tortmaster
(382 posts)... so don't tell me they're not hiding aliens, too!
w4rma
(31,700 posts)In my county we use paper ballots and the paper ballots are scanned, and proofed for errors, as they are dropped into a ballot box. I can't think of a better system than the one used in my county (Henrico, VA).
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)The sad part, many Americans live in a bubble of denial.
desmiller
(747 posts)zeemike
(18,998 posts)And no matter how many times it is exposed it just goes on and on.
And no one in positions of power will say a word about it much less do something.
RufusTFirefly
(8,812 posts)Face it, folks. It's a One Percent thing.
Voting is fine. It pacifies the masses into believing we still have a democracy.
But it can never threaten the goals and wealth of the billionaire class.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)Angry Dragon
(36,693 posts)bbgrunt
(5,281 posts)rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)and they will attack you.
valerief
(53,235 posts)SammyWinstonJack
(44,129 posts)jg10003
(975 posts)is used to determine the outcome. The paper ballots are only checked in the event of a recount. It's the same system used here in Broward County, Fla. The best system is to use a touch screen to print a clear unambiguous paper ballot. The paper ballots are then counted. The touch screen doesn't record any votes, it just prints a ballot unencumbered by bad handwriting, over-voting, under-voting, confusing layouts (i.e. butterfly ballots), etc.
pnwmom
(108,955 posts)named on that orange box in the photo.
So there's something strange about the photo.
This is the Alameda county elections website. See the second video, where it says "Voting System Demonstration."
http://www.acgov.org/rov/videos.htm
bvar22
(39,909 posts)The most vulnerable point in you election system is not the optical scanner (or BBV i other places), but at the tabulators which are out public sight... and so are the paper ballots by that time.
To rig a vote at the individual BBV level would take thousands of rigged boxes, and many people in on the scam. To rig a few tabulators takes only one person, and that would be enough to flip a close election.
packman
(16,296 posts)"It's not the people who vote that count. It's the people who count the votes"
felix_numinous
(5,198 posts)Pretend for a second Clinton votes were changed to Trump with these same tactics. I keep hoping people will wake up to the problem, but I don't expect it at this point.
notadmblnd
(23,720 posts)They'll be wailing and accusing Donald Trump of election fraud
FailureToCommunicate
(14,007 posts)MattP
(3,304 posts)It's like any old touchscreen they suck
w4rma
(31,700 posts)And, yes, touchscreens do suck and shouldn't be used.
In my county we use paper ballots and the paper ballots are scanned, and proofed for errors, as they are dropped into a ballot box. I can't think of a better system than the one used in my county (Henrico, VA).
DawgHouse
(4,019 posts)when you say the ballot is proofed for errors?
w4rma
(31,700 posts)It won't let invalid ballots into the ballot box and cuts down on voter error.
DawgHouse
(4,019 posts)Ours is the same.
w4rma
(31,700 posts)DawgHouse
(4,019 posts)w4rma
(31,700 posts)I don't know if the system keeps a record of timestamps for ballots inserted, but that little bit of code, would make the system even more secure than it already is.
Even without ballot timestamps, it's still the best, most secure, system - I think.
zeemike
(18,998 posts)And you have no idea if it puts them in the right place, and no one does...Only the computer programer knows for sure...that is the beauty of it.
Only an audit of the actual ballots will uncover it...and that is difficult to obtain, and if you do they will only do a few precincts not the whole thing.
The computer whether it is a touch screen or a scanner makes election fraud child's play.
w4rma
(31,700 posts)The scanner allows for speed and immediate results. The paper ballots allow for accurate, verifiable results.
Since the scanner checks for voter errors on ballots, too, the paper ballots should be well-organized, practically error free, and easily read and counted.
zeemike
(18,998 posts)And you will need a court order to do that...and probable cause.
The scanner may check for errors on the ballot but no one checks for "errors" in the program that counts and totals the vote.
And any programer could write a program to say something like, if candidate A is less than candidate B, add vote A to B and when percentage reaches X stop.
And if you can't look at the code no one would ever know.
If fast is what you want then you will get it, but it don't mean it is not rigged.
w4rma
(31,700 posts)the counting. If you want a law to make counting the paper ballots, required, in all elections, I'm fine with that. And the computer tally would *still* be there for redundancy.
downeastdaniel
(497 posts)w4rma
(31,700 posts)And I say this from the perspective of a computer engineer.
notadmblnd
(23,720 posts)kadaholo
(304 posts)Sad commentary for voting in our "democracy."
Duval
(4,280 posts)I wish the Revolution happened yesterday!
zentrum
(9,865 posts)downeastdaniel
(497 posts)Answer: Both Parties act like there's no problem, and of course there is and it has disastrous results...we need to change the system...
Amimnoch
(4,558 posts)That gives you what? A 0.25 delagate gain?
You know the story about the boy who cried wolf? If Hillary really has the super powers to swing elections, I guess there's nothing for ya'll to worry about with regards to her winning in November.
AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)Yes, it's all just a big joke, isn't it?
When the Hill's in the house.... we can all go back to our complacency. She's got this! Even if she was voted "most untrustworthy".
Amimnoch
(4,558 posts)Worse, it cheapens actual disenfranchisement like Arizona and Brooklyn.
LiberalFighter
(50,783 posts)renate
(13,776 posts)Of course mistakes due to touch-screens are worse the more often they happen, but it's completely unacceptable that it happens at all. And that's not even addressing the susceptibility of vote-counting to hacking. It's just absurd that the United States of America, a country that thinks it's entitled to get all judgy about other countries' elections, can't get it right.
And this has been going on for YEARS. There has been plenty of time to either get rid of this kind of voting or get it right. It's completely unacceptable in a country where "one person, one vote" is (supposed to be) a bedrock of our society.
Use the absentee ballot...no standing in line...no computer muck-ups....
Just get it in before Election Day.
renate
(13,776 posts)Voting literally could not be easier--the ballot comes in the mail, you go over the voter's pamphlet at your leisure, and mail the ballot in or drop it off. I really wish everybody was as fortunate as we are here.
hughee99
(16,113 posts)It's a republican who benefits from this.
Cheese Sandwich
(9,086 posts)AzDar
(14,023 posts)PatrickforO
(14,558 posts)The AP announcement on the eve of the CA primary, for instance.
But our guy is going to meet with Obama tomorrow. As much a gentleman as he's been, I fully expect that he'll get behind Clinton and add a powerful voice to President Obama and Senator Elizabeth Warren.
See, as bummed as I am about Bernie losing, we did not lose. These politicians are now discussing how to mitigate wealth inequality, relieving student debt, improving healthcare, and other things that would genuinely make our lives better. Obama just came out with the idea we should EXPAND Social Security! He WAS ready to put it on the table for the so-called 'grand bargain.'
Bernie's really done some good.
LibDemAlways
(15,139 posts)as welcome at the platform committee as telemarketer calls at dinnertime.
PatrickforO
(14,558 posts)But thanks to Bernie (and all of us), they'll be making that call anyway.
PatrynXX
(5,668 posts)Hey we warned you in March on forward. If you didn't listen we can't help that.
Angry Dragon
(36,693 posts)Major Nikon
(36,818 posts)SmittynMo
(3,544 posts)Odds are the machine was serviced and the screen was not re-calibrated. Very easy oversight, but then if testing was done, they certainly would have caught this.
still_one
(92,061 posts)service.
kadaholo
(304 posts)...the programmer forgot the last command on this machine which would have hidden all flipping from the voter. LOL!
SusanCalvin
(6,592 posts)HAVA was a scam.
Paper ballots, hand counted at the precinct level, with a webcam watching. Results posted on the door, and a photo of same posted on the web, before the ballot box leaves.
JimDandy
(7,318 posts)valerief
(53,235 posts)voting.
blackspade
(10,056 posts)Rafale
(291 posts)I mean who would hack them. Computers are completely secure. Well except for OPM, oh and United Airlines. And Target, and the Federal Reserve. Oh and. Ugh. Never mind. Gotta pee. This could take all night listing exceptions.
SusanCalvin
(6,592 posts)pnwmom
(108,955 posts)See the orange box that says "Alameda County"? You can see a demonstration of Alameda County's optical scanning system on its election's website here. (The second video, where it says "Voting System Demonstration."
http://www.acgov.org/rov/videos.htm
It looks nothing like the touchscreen device shown in the video.
And this is a 2011 video showing Alameda employees getting training on the machine.
So this doesn't make sense.
still_one
(92,061 posts)they don't want to hear it. However, let's assume the machine was used.
The video doesn't show what happened if you try to select Hillary Clinton. Would touching Hillary's name have selected Fuente?
It's possible the touch screen was not calibrated properly and the same would probably happen to each candidate you try to select. However, it could also be a defective machine. Was the machine taking out of service? Was the problem reported by the voter?
JimDandy
(7,318 posts)(and vice-versa) so her posts are probably just not being seen. I took all the Clintonians off ignore just 2 or 3 weeks ago. It may take many SBS supporters a lot longer to do so, if at all.
still_one
(92,061 posts)OldRedneck
(1,397 posts)I'm on the electoral board of a rural Virginia county.
We got rid of our touch-screen machines last year. However, while we were still using them, at every election, we always had a problem with at least one machine -- either the machine would not accept a vote, or, it would do what this one is doing.
Every time a machine did something like this, the voter IMMEDIATELY called it to the attention of one of our poll workers. We call the machine out of action, issue the voter a paper ballot, seal the machine, and remove it from the polling.
After the election, when the techs check out the bad machine, we always found it was either:
-- slipped out of calibration
-- user error (long fingernail hits the button above your choice; voter doesn't firmly touch button, punches screen again, this time missing the button for their choice; voter drags their finger across the screen instead of tapping the button).
I have another question about the video. Why is the VOTE BY MAIL BALLOTS ballot box sitting on the floor next to the machine? Why wouldn't vote-by-mail ballots go to the registrar's office by mail? Do people bring their vote-by-mail ballots to the polling place for deposit? If so, it seems to me proper polling place layout would have that box located somewhere else, so you don't have people voting at the machine while someone else is elbowing their way past to cast a mail-in ballot.
Something's fishy here and it's more than the performance of the machine.
pnwmom
(108,955 posts)The vote-by-mail ballots in that county -- Alameda co, as identified by the box on the floor -- are processed by optical scan machines.
The same machines that the county elections website says is what they use in their elections.
See the second video, where it says "Voting System Demonstration."
http://www.acgov.org/rov/videos.htm
still_one
(92,061 posts)If the machine was defective, or the touch screen not calibrated properly, was this reported, and the machine taken out of service? None of this is made cleared.
All your points are excellent.
JimDandy
(7,318 posts)and drop them in the box. This might be a warehouse that CA state uses to check election equipment from various counties or a distribution center. It is almost certainly not a voter on election day in this video.
Gomez163
(2,039 posts)JohnnyRingo
(18,618 posts)I know you don't mean it, but that's funny.
I think the video is a scam anyway. It's just too perfect how he walks up to the machine, cell phone in hand, and twice pushes for Bernie. Obviously it's a misaligned screen that would have been caught immediately by anyone with half a brain and one eye.
To imagine this would have fooled thousands upon thousands of voters really sells Sanders' voters short on intellectual awareness.
pnwmom
(108,955 posts)And that county's website says it uses paper ballots and optical scanner machines.
On the county elections website, you can see a demonstration of their optical scanning system here. (The second video, where it says "Voting System Demonstration."
http://www.acgov.org/rov/videos.htm
DetlefK
(16,423 posts)You never had that problem? Seriously? This is a well-known issue with aged touchscreens.
So, if you tip on Bernie, the mark goes to the candidate above Bernie. Why didn't this imbecile try tipping on the guy BELOW Bernie and see what happens?
"Oh No! The touchscreen falsely alocates votes to Bernie Sanders!"
This whole video is so ridiculous, words fail.
progressoid
(49,945 posts)Had a hell of a time getting the 'period' to work.
And it looks like this one has already been pulled from use.
JohnnyRingo
(18,618 posts)...is that some here think thousands would not have noticed and cast their ballot anyway. It's a pretty obvious glitch and unless someone were texting and checking their email while looking around the room they would have caught it and alerted the poll workers. If they didn't the next person would have.
Anyone who didn't see such a stark error probably didn't care who they voted for anyway.
This was probably just a poll worker checking a malfunctioning screen on a machine that was already out of service... Or what many call widespread fraud by Hillary. hahaha
Gamecock Lefty
(700 posts)When Bernie loses a state he said he was going to win (and there are lots) there were voting machine shenanigans but when he wins hey, all these voting machines performed perfectly?
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)You can't hack a caucus.
pnwmom
(108,955 posts)over the Iowa caucuses.
And all the screams over the Nevada caucuses.
And in my Washington caucus, the Bernie poll-watcher was so sure there would be fraud, he was telling everyone to take a photo of our ballots on our phones.
I hate caucuses because they require hours of time, are non-representative, and non-inclusive.
jimlup
(7,968 posts)I would assume there is a calibration proceedure. Not trying to defend Ms. Clinton here but I suspect other votes would have been missed by this machine. The correct procedure would be to immediately draw it to the poll worker's attention.