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Mon Jun 3, 2013, 02:15 PM

Mary Elizabeth Williams, Salon: "The grossest part of Michael Douglas’ cancer brag"

Monday, Jun 3, 2013 08:35 AM PST
The grossest part of Michael Douglas’ cancer brag
He says oral sex caused his illness -- but that's not the worst part
By Mary Elizabeth Williams



http://www.salon.com/2013/06/03/the_worst_part_of_michael_douglas_cancer_brag/

“Stage 4 cancer and a shit-pot of chemo and radiation,” he admitted, “that’s a rough ride. That can really take it out of you. Plus, the amount of chemo I was getting, it zaps all the good stuff too. It made me very weak.”

But when writer Xan Brooks asked the actor, who in 1992 did a stint in rehab for drug and alcohol dependence, if he felt his hard living had contributed to his cancer, Douglas demurred. “No,” he said. “No. Because, without wanting to get too specific, this particular cancer is caused by HPV , which actually comes about from cunnilingus.”

****

But what’s truly most astonishing about the whole Douglas admission isn’t the sexual boasting — it’s that he found himself in a position to do it in the first place. You know what people who’ve had Stage 4 cancer shouldn’t have to account for? How they got their cancer. They shouldn’t be expected to turn their illness into an exercise in rationalization – I’m not a loser who got cancer from smoking; I’m a bad-ass who got it from servicing Catherine Zeta-Jones!

The implication, that far too many of us who’ve had cancer have firsthand experience with, is that there’s a hierarchy of our disease — that some people deserve it, and that the person with the cancer owes the world an explanation for How This Happened, so that others can go about their lives feeling blameless and pure. So yeah, ultimately, the Douglas interview was pretty gross. But it wasn’t the answer that made it so. It was the question.

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Reply Mary Elizabeth Williams, Salon: "The grossest part of Michael Douglas’ cancer brag" (Original post)
Amerigo Vespucci Jun 2013 OP
Happyhippychick Jun 2013 #1
AtheistCrusader Jun 2013 #18
SharonAnn Jun 2013 #76
Arkansas Granny Jun 2013 #2
Myrina Jun 2013 #15
sinkingfeeling Jun 2013 #3
hlthe2b Jun 2013 #4
backscatter712 Jun 2013 #6
elleng Jun 2013 #9
sinkingfeeling Jun 2013 #11
elleng Jun 2013 #17
still_one Jun 2013 #27
unblock Jun 2013 #5
MFM008 Jun 2013 #7
Just Saying Jun 2013 #8
sinkingfeeling Jun 2013 #12
Just Saying Jun 2013 #19
sinkingfeeling Jun 2013 #22
Just Saying Jun 2013 #28
sinkingfeeling Jun 2013 #30
Hulk Jun 2013 #10
Heather MC Jun 2013 #13
sinkingfeeling Jun 2013 #14
Myrina Jun 2013 #16
sinkingfeeling Jun 2013 #23
Myrina Jun 2013 #55
sinkingfeeling Jun 2013 #60
still_one Jun 2013 #29
Myrina Jun 2013 #56
still_one Jun 2013 #62
colorado_ufo Jun 2013 #32
Myrina Jun 2013 #54
Nitram Jun 2013 #41
tinrobot Jun 2013 #20
silvershadow Jun 2013 #21
sinkingfeeling Jun 2013 #24
silvershadow Jun 2013 #36
Nitram Jun 2013 #42
silvershadow Jun 2013 #45
Myrina Jun 2013 #58
sinkingfeeling Jun 2013 #43
silvershadow Jun 2013 #46
Eric J in MN Jun 2013 #25
still_one Jun 2013 #26
ReRe Jun 2013 #31
Myrina Jun 2013 #59
MADem Jun 2013 #65
MADem Jun 2013 #33
sinkingfeeling Jun 2013 #44
MADem Jun 2013 #47
sinkingfeeling Jun 2013 #51
MADem Jun 2013 #57
sinkingfeeling Jun 2013 #61
MADem Jun 2013 #64
sinkingfeeling Jun 2013 #68
MADem Jun 2013 #69
sinkingfeeling Jun 2013 #70
MADem Jun 2013 #71
sinkingfeeling Jun 2013 #72
MADem Jun 2013 #73
sinkingfeeling Jun 2013 #74
AsahinaKimi Jun 2013 #34
Bennyboy Jun 2013 #35
ZombieHorde Jun 2013 #37
elleng Jun 2013 #38
nomorenomore08 Jun 2013 #39
MADem Jun 2013 #48
Jim Lane Jun 2013 #40
MADem Jun 2013 #50
sinkingfeeling Jun 2013 #52
MADem Jun 2013 #53
still_one Jun 2013 #63
ArtiChoke Jun 2013 #49
LuvNewcastle Jun 2013 #66
Lars39 Jun 2013 #67
Lone_Star_Dem Jun 2013 #75
marshall Jun 2013 #77

Response to Amerigo Vespucci (Original post)

Mon Jun 3, 2013, 02:19 PM

1. "Without wanting to get too specific"

Sounded pretty specific to me.

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Response to Happyhippychick (Reply #1)

Mon Jun 3, 2013, 03:39 PM

18. Well, he didn't identify who.

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Response to Happyhippychick (Reply #1)

Fri Jun 7, 2013, 04:21 PM

76. He got HPV from a woman who got it from a man. He probably gave it to one or more women.

Where's the disease vector point of "men" mentioned in here? It's as if it's women "giving it" to men.

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Response to Amerigo Vespucci (Original post)

Mon Jun 3, 2013, 02:23 PM

2. I think most people are unaware that you can contract the disease this way.

I think he was probably trying to provide info, not boast.

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Response to Arkansas Granny (Reply #2)

Mon Jun 3, 2013, 03:35 PM

15. Then why did he go on to say " Cunnilingus is also the best way to cure it"

C'mon man, TMI ... really.

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Response to Amerigo Vespucci (Original post)

Mon Jun 3, 2013, 02:23 PM

3. Gross??? You, Ms. Williams, should be ashamed of yourself. I also have

survived Stage IV throat cancer. The stupid-ass public better be waking up to the fact that HPV is directly the cause of the rapid increase in the number of throat cancers. This type of cancer has increased 28% since 1988.

Gross, Ms. Williams, is discovering you have a Stage IV cancer that nobody suspected was there. Gross is having your saliva glands, your taste buds, and maybe even your jaw bones be destroyed by radiation treatments. Gross is knowing that not only can the cancer return, but you could also lose your ability to swallow or have your jaw bones crumble 10 or more years down the pike.

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Response to sinkingfeeling (Reply #3)

Mon Jun 3, 2013, 02:29 PM

4. ^^This^^

Some folks really need to realize that what is important is education snd public health preventive care that will SAVE LIVES!

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Response to sinkingfeeling (Reply #3)

Mon Jun 3, 2013, 03:01 PM

6. +10,000 n/t

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Response to sinkingfeeling (Reply #3)

Mon Jun 3, 2013, 03:20 PM

9. Yes and thanks, sinking.

My husband just passed from /neck/throat cancer.

I do think people should be made aware of 'toxic' side-effects of radiation treatments. You describe/list some of the symptoms he experienced, and he just had a p.e.g. inserted/implanted so he could obtain SOME nutrition. He passed about 10 days later.

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Response to elleng (Reply #9)

Mon Jun 3, 2013, 03:27 PM

11. I'm so sorry to hear of your loss. I could have listed some of the

really gross things we dealt with, but I didn't want to gross out anyone. May I ask, why they think the cancer took him? Was it just too far advanced? I have one man in my support group who has had squamous cell 5 different times, from the base of the tongue to his jaw. What he's been through is incredible.

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Response to sinkingfeeling (Reply #11)

Mon Jun 3, 2013, 03:38 PM

17. Wish I had a better answer for you,

but I didn't even KNOW he had 'developed' throat cancer; he didn't tell me, even tho his MD had apparently suggested hospice recently. The same MD supported inserting p.e.g. Doc told medical examiner that doc had 'expected his death, even while encouraging and helping with the p.e.g.

2/3 of his tongue had been removed 16 years ago, had radiation, and 'lived' with consequences re: saliva + speech + teeth since then.

I don't know what was actual/immediate cause of death, but I found him in living room rocking chair 24? hours after I had expected to hear from him. (We've been separated about 8 years, but getting along better recently, so I don't know everything about his whereabouts.)

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Response to sinkingfeeling (Reply #3)

Mon Jun 3, 2013, 04:16 PM

27. +1

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Response to Amerigo Vespucci (Original post)

Mon Jun 3, 2013, 02:57 PM

5. yeah, not with her on this one. public knowledge about disease prevention is a good thing.

i agree that there should be no stigma or hierarchy about how anyone got whatever ailment they may have.

but the public should be educated about how to avoid such diseases, so, for example, discussion about how condoms (presumably not applicable in michael douglas's case) can reduce the spread of various stds is certainly a good thing, even if mary elizabeth williams would see such discussion as "gross".

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Response to Amerigo Vespucci (Original post)

Mon Jun 3, 2013, 03:02 PM

7. It did take a lot of him

I think Kirk looks better.

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Response to Amerigo Vespucci (Original post)

Mon Jun 3, 2013, 03:18 PM

8. Okay, but

Michael also smokes.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-2021259/Michael-Douglas-Catherine-Zeta-Jones-smoking-7-months-beat-thoat-cancer.html

It seems to me the OP's point is that someone who gets cancer smoking doesn't deserve to be judged and he seems to be using sex with his beautiful wife to cover other causes because of the stigma.

If he wants to educate he should be factually accurate. Does he know that his cancer was caused only by HPV? Did smoking play a part?

Truly it's none of our business but again I believe that's the OP's point- no one should have to explain how they got cancer or be judged for it. People shouldn't have to make excuses for having a deadly disease.

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Response to Just Saying (Reply #8)

Mon Jun 3, 2013, 03:28 PM

12. No, he didn't say his was HPV caused. And if you don't think people should

be judged for it, then why bring up smoking?

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Response to sinkingfeeling (Reply #12)

Mon Jun 3, 2013, 03:40 PM

19. I read the entire article

Sure seems like he said that!

Furthermore my point at bringing it up is that people say he did so to educate yet he's not being honest. Can't have it both ways! If he chooses to discuss the why then he should tell the whole story. I'm reiterating what the OP is saying about making excuses for cancer-Mr. Douglas wasn't honest for that reason very reason.

The OP asserts its gross because the question shouldn't even be asked because of the stigma.

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Response to Just Saying (Reply #19)

Mon Jun 3, 2013, 03:58 PM

22. How is he 'not being honest'? I've had the same cancer and know that

it's only been in the last two years where they run the test to determine if the cancer is caused by HPV.

No person has to make 'excuses' for cancer. Cancer is a disease.

By the way, his reps are denying The Guardian's headline.



Douglas' representatives denied The Guardian's headline stating that oral sex caused the actor's cancer on Monday morning, telling USA Today: "Michael Douglas did not say cunnilingus was the cause of his cancer. It was discussed that oral sex is a suspected cause of certain oral cancers as doctor's in the article point out but he did not say it was the specific cause of his personal cancer."

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-204_162-57587350/oral-sex-and-throat-cancer-michael-douglas-hpv-report-spotlights-epidemic/

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Response to sinkingfeeling (Reply #22)

Mon Jun 3, 2013, 04:17 PM

28. Because he was asked if his fast lifestyle caught up

With him (meAning how he got cancer) and he claimed it was oral sex/hpv. I'm not disputing it may be a cause just that he's not being honest about the many issues that may have led to his illness. Is he denying smoking because there's a stigma?

And the articles original point wasn't that it was gross that he brought up oral sex but that a reporter thought it was ok to ask in the first place. I agree with the writer and you-he shouldn't have to explain. I just think if he's going to he should be truthful.

Yes I saw the update but seems like they're trying to clarify. Who knows? And again not really our business anyway.

Article also brings up the irony of hpv being a socially acceptable reason to have cancer when the vaccine has been used by certain groups to shame women. They've faught vaccinating girls because it can be sexually transmitted and you know that would be giving young girls permission to have sex.

I hope that you're well!

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Response to Just Saying (Reply #28)

Mon Jun 3, 2013, 04:22 PM

30. Thank you. But the writer is an idiot. He didn't 'boast'. I smoked for 40 years, but

the odds of it being caused by HPV are just as great.

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Response to Amerigo Vespucci (Original post)

Mon Jun 3, 2013, 03:22 PM

10. Maybe it's just that sinister smirk on his face that makes you think he's boasting..

The guy's an actor. Who knows what is behind his statement. Information to the public to prevent further cancer stories? Boasting that he's the #1 oral sex maniac in his graduating class? Who knows.
I had NO idea you could contract cancer from oral sex. I'm still not certain if this is a hoax or for real. But if I learn that it is for real, I'm not going to be apt to go places where I'm gonna die from going.

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Response to Hulk (Reply #10)

Mon Jun 3, 2013, 03:31 PM

14. Then you'd better be reading up on HPV-induced cancers.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-204_162-57587350/oral-sex-and-throat-cancer-michael-douglas-hpv-report-spotlights-epidemic/

"HPV is an STD transmitted by oral and genital sex.

The 2013 "Annual Report to the Nation on the Status of Cancer" found about 13,000 new cases of oropharyngeal in both men and women linked to HPV in 2009 (the last year of available data), more than 10,500 of which were in men. More than 60 percent of oropharyngeal cancers are caused by HPV, according to the National Cancer Institute, which was an author in the report.

From 2000 to 2009, incidence rates increased for HPV-associated cancer of the oropharynx among white men and women, the report also found.

Previous research found HPV fueled a 28 percent rise in oropharyngeal cancer cases since 1988, amounting for an additional 10,000 U.S. cases each year.

Genden said HPV-related throat cancers are now more common in men than cervical cancer -- which is caused by the same virus -- in women. These cancers are also more commonly found in younger populations, adults between ages 40 and 65, a group typically younger than those affected by smoking-related throat cancers.

People who are developing throat cancer now likely had gotten HPV more than 10 or 15 years earlier, Genden pointed out.

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Response to Hulk (Reply #10)

Mon Jun 3, 2013, 03:37 PM

16. And how does that make Mrs. Douglas feel?

"My husband just went on international media and told the world my dirty cooch is responsible for him almost dying".

Thanks, Mike. Thanks alot!

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Response to Myrina (Reply #16)

Mon Jun 3, 2013, 03:59 PM

23. Oh for heavens sake, grow up!!!

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Response to sinkingfeeling (Reply #23)

Tue Jun 4, 2013, 02:31 PM

55. It wouldn't bother you if your spouse outed something like that in the national news?

Especially if you weren't the one that gave it to him, and now you've most likely got it too?


"Grow up" ... yes grandma. Sure.

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Response to Myrina (Reply #55)

Tue Jun 4, 2013, 02:54 PM

60. 'Outed what? That he has a cancer caused by HPV-16. So what?

He said, "Ah, without getting too specific, this cancer is caused by something called HPV, which actually comes about from cunnilingus."

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/gossip/michael-douglas-oral-sex-caused-cancer-guardian-article-1.1362610#ixzz2VH2gV18k

"This particular cancer", the same as what I had, is formally called squamous cell carcinoma and about 60% of it is caused by HPV-16 transmitted through oral sex.

The cancer isn't transmitted, but the HPV is and is present in over 70 million Americans.

Do you really think oral sex is so awful that only a few people have ever participated in it?

Oral sex is less "ageless." Nearly 60 percent of the participants under 65 years old said they had engaged in oral sex in the previous 12 months, compared with 31 percent for the over-75s.
It's estimated more than 1/3 of all ninth graders have experienced oral sex and over 40% of college students.

http://www.students.uni-marburg.de/~Nauj/downloads/02.%20Semester/sozpsy/sex-referat/oral%20sex%20-%20varied%20behaviors%20and%20perceptions%20in%20a%20college%20population.pdf

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/15/AR2005091500915.htm

http://www.livescience.com/9524-senior-sex-swell-survey.html

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/115/4/845.full

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Response to Myrina (Reply #16)

Mon Jun 3, 2013, 04:18 PM

29. That isn't what he said, but let mis-characterize it like the media is doing so we will lose focus

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Response to still_one (Reply #29)

Tue Jun 4, 2013, 02:32 PM

56. So, if he didn't get it FROM her, then he got it FROM SOMEONE ELSE & likely gave it TO her.

That wouldn't be something I personally would want on the news. Ya know?

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Response to Myrina (Reply #56)

Tue Jun 4, 2013, 04:34 PM

62. Now we are jumping to more assumptions.

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Response to Myrina (Reply #16)

Mon Jun 3, 2013, 04:33 PM

32. Why blame his wife?

Does anyone think Douglas was a virgin before he married Catherine Zeta-Jones?

BTW, this lady needs to take her own health seriously and get checked regularly, as she could have gotten it from HIM.

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Response to colorado_ufo (Reply #32)

Tue Jun 4, 2013, 02:30 PM

54. Ok, well how would that make YOU feel if someone else shared their virus?

To find out your spouse had been servicing someone with ... well, someone who's been around the block ... either before you, or at the same time as you, and that now YOU probably have HPV too, because of it?


Any way you look at it, I'm sorry, but if I was C Z-J I'd be all kinds of pissed off.

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Response to Myrina (Reply #16)

Tue Jun 4, 2013, 08:41 AM

41. Myrina

The fact that Douglas engaged in oral sex with his wife is nothing to be ashamed of. And the idea it means she has a "dirty cooch" is pathetic. Grow up. We're talking about cancer, not cooties, and no one is being blamed.

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Response to Hulk (Reply #10)

Mon Jun 3, 2013, 03:44 PM

20. Was the image taken at the moment he made that statement?

...or was it chosen to suit the narrative of the article?

I suspect the latter.

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Response to Amerigo Vespucci (Original post)

Mon Jun 3, 2013, 03:50 PM

21. He is such a douche. Seriously.

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Response to silvershadow (Reply #21)

Mon Jun 3, 2013, 04:00 PM

24. How so? Seriously.

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Response to sinkingfeeling (Reply #24)

Mon Jun 3, 2013, 06:16 PM

36. To have that whole exchange, bring his wife and such a private thing out in public. Just douche-y.

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Response to silvershadow (Reply #36)

Tue Jun 4, 2013, 08:42 AM

42. Why are you prudes

so embarrassed by a reference to oral sex? In a medical context.

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Response to Nitram (Reply #42)

Tue Jun 4, 2013, 12:34 PM

45. If that douche was actually concerned about preventing disease and educating people, that is one

thing. I doubt he was. Gotta love the internet- you can find a snap judgement based on absolutely nothing in every corner.

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Response to Nitram (Reply #42)

Tue Jun 4, 2013, 02:34 PM

58. It's not being prudish, its showing some respect for your spouse.

Jesus, would you want the whole world thinking you gave your spouse something like that?
Or finding out via the news that your husband was servicing other women (HOPEFULLY before you married him) that gave him HPV?
Oh and by the way, if you didn't have it before, you probably do now. Wanna find that out via E! News?


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Response to silvershadow (Reply #36)

Tue Jun 4, 2013, 08:49 AM

43. Really, so we shouldn't tell people how diseases are transmitted? What about

HIV/AIDS, should we just shut up about it? BTW, show me where he said anything at all about his wife. It's now predicted that the rate of throat cancers caused by HPV will explode by 2030 as younger people have had more oral sex than older generations.

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Response to sinkingfeeling (Reply #43)

Tue Jun 4, 2013, 12:39 PM

46. That is all wonderful stuff. Apparently I missed the bulk of his dissertation. The only part I saw

was the rather sensationalized sound bite, which he did in a very theatrical way. By all means, carry on. I meant no offense. I see that even long-timers have been offended by my rather off-the-cuff remark about Mr. Douglas' crude remark. Nevertheless, I have been scolded, and I am reminded why it took me 12+ years to rack up a whopping 1500 post count. Do carry on.

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Response to Amerigo Vespucci (Original post)

Mon Jun 3, 2013, 04:11 PM

25. God forbid he talked about his cancer.

That's "boasting" (sarcasm).

Seriously, Michael Douglas probably said that he got cancer from performing oral sex because that's what his doctor told him, not to boast.

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Response to Amerigo Vespucci (Original post)

Mon Jun 3, 2013, 04:15 PM

26. Bullshit. It makes people aware of a risk they may not be aware of. As far as I know he did NOT

say who he got it from. In fact, his life style was promiscuous, so it could have been anyone.

People better grow, he wasn't "boasting", he was informing

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Response to Amerigo Vespucci (Original post)

Mon Jun 3, 2013, 04:24 PM

31. I recently heard that Catherine Zeta-Jones....

... had checked in somewhere for a breakdown of some sort, don't know if it was alcohol or perscription drug related issues or not. I wondered what was up. Have always been fond of her as an actress and as a caring human being, in spite of her beauty. And now I think I know why, i.e. that Michael was going to reveal the "source" of his throat cancer.
Hell, I didn't even know that cancer was communicable! HIV, yes, but that's not HPV. I just thought that HPV was an indication of cervical cancer. BUT, when you look at it, think. Viruses are communicable. Virus is the key word.
Boy, oh boy, does this open a can of worms. I'm left with a gazillion questions about this. I'm going to run and read some American Cancer Society. What comes first, the chicken or the egg? Like Martha Plimpton said, this is the human papiloma virus, not the "ladies" papiloma virus.

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Response to ReRe (Reply #31)

Tue Jun 4, 2013, 02:37 PM

59. She's Bi-polar. Well documented.

Lest the "Legion of the Perpetually Aghast" here at DU assuse me (again) of 'snap judgments' or 'inferences' or WTF-ever they want to gnash their pearls about today.

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Response to Myrina (Reply #59)

Tue Jun 4, 2013, 04:59 PM

65. She is--no secret. Well controlled by medication, ordinarily.

She's had a slip or two--it happens.

I have an in-law with the same condition; it's easily managed with attention to a medical protocol.

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Response to Amerigo Vespucci (Original post)

Mon Jun 3, 2013, 04:38 PM

33. The latest....

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2334749/Michael-Douglas-Oral-sex-caused-cancer.html

The headline summary:

Now Michael Douglas says he DOESN’T blame oral sex for his throat cancer as doctors question his ‘dubious’ claims
Actor believed it was years of smoking and drinking that caused disease
Then said he discovered his cancer stemmed from human papilloma virus which is commonly spread via oral sex
British doctor says impossible to pinpoint cause to one factor
Now Mr Douglas has retracted his claim oral sex was to blame


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Response to MADem (Reply #33)

Tue Jun 4, 2013, 08:58 AM

44. The Dailymail is full of it. The American Cancer Society and SPOHNC both

have published research. Anybody today being diagnosed will have pathology report on whether there is evidence of HPV. Currently HPV is responsible for 60% of all throat/mouth cancers.

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Response to sinkingfeeling (Reply #44)

Tue Jun 4, 2013, 01:06 PM

47. Well, just because there is "evidence" of HPV does not follow that HPV caused the cancer.

That's faulty logic. There could be evidence of gum disease, or halitosis, that doesn't mean those caused the cancer, either. He could have gotten the cancer first, and the HPV right after.

We don't have his medical record; we just don't know.

Frankly, I think the whole thing is more than a bit of TMI.

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Response to MADem (Reply #47)

Tue Jun 4, 2013, 02:04 PM

51. It's called pathology. Would like to see mine where they looked for HPV-16 when

they analyzed my squamous cell tonsillar Stage IV cancer?

If you don't believe in science, what can I tell you? Or try this Google search: hpv cancer oropharyngeal

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HPV-positive_oropharyngeal_cancer

Human papillomavirus (HPV)-positive oropharyngeal cancer (OPC) also known as HPV16+ oropharyngeal cancer or HPV+ OPC is a recognized subtype of Oropharyngeal squamous cell carcinomas (OSCC), associated with the HPV type 16 virus.

Although evidence suggests that HPV16 is the main cause of OPC between non-smokers and non-drinkers, the degree to which tobacco and/or alcohol use may contribute to increase the risk of HPV+ OPC is unclear.

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Response to sinkingfeeling (Reply #51)

Tue Jun 4, 2013, 02:32 PM

57. Are you telling me that a person can't get cancer from smoking/drinking, and then, later,

acquire HPV? That this is an impossible scenario?

Your quote does not suggest a "one follows the other" relationship. It's not a question of disbelieving science, it's a question of not assuming that science is saying more than it is actually saying. When science says "definitive proof" and "conclusive evidence" and "direct causative relationship" then we're talking scientific proof. But no one "believes" in science--they require proof from it.

All your quote says is that they often go together (associated, may contribute), and that "the evidence suggests" that if you do not smoke or drink, HPV is "suggested" to be the main cause. Your quote does not say there is a direct, positive, no-bullshit causative relationship.

Michael Douglas smoked like a chimney and drank like a fish and did a shitload of drugs. For YEARS.

He also had a lot of extramarital relationships.

So, which came first, the cancer or the HPV? Or did they show up at the same time?

Who REALLY knows, here? His doctors, perhaps. But not us! And Michael Douglas's PR team is determined to obfuscate the matter!

Unless you are Michael Douglas, your pathology results aren't really operative, here--but I do hope you're recovering and will have no further recurrences of illness.

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Response to MADem (Reply #57)

Tue Jun 4, 2013, 03:24 PM

61. Basically the exposure to HPV takes place decades before the cancer develops.

It takes decades for HPV infections to manifest into cancers.

And he said, "....this particular cancer", not "my cancer". To me, "This particular cancer" would be the squamous cell carcinoma.

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/how-hpv-causes-oral-cancer-2013-6#ixzz2VHCJYJ5i

I really don't know how much scientific proof you need, but there are thousands of studies that show a completely different etiology between cancers caused by HPV-16 and those that develop due to smoking or heavy drinking.

There is a distinctive difference between the pathology of HPV-16 cancers and others.

The Head and Neck Pathology Consultation Service at the The Johns Hopkins Hospital now provides a very reliable test to detect the presence HPV-16, the most common HPV subtype to cause cancers of the head and neck. The powerful HPV-16 in situ hybridization catalyzed signal amplification method (DAKO) is highly sensitive, is applicable to formalin-fixed paraffin-embedded clinical samples, and permits direct visualization of viral sequences within tissues.


"It has now been established that the path that brings people to oral cancer contains at least two distinct etiologies; one through tobacco and alcohol, and another via the HPV virus, particularly version 16, though other versions of the virus might be implicated as the research unravels further, though any others identified as of today are considered research data artifacts and not actual causative agents. The anatomical malignancy sites associated with each pathway appear to also be different from each other. In the broadest terms they can be differentiated into these areas; HPV related cancers appear to occur on the tonsillar area, the base of the tongue and the oropharynx, and non-HPV positive tumors tend to involve the anterior tongue, floor of the mouth, the mucosa that covers the inside of the cheeks and alveolar ridges (the ridge area in which the teeth reside). The data on these two distinct etiologies is coming out of researchers more rapidly now, and there are further definitions that seem to be apparent between the two."

http://www.oralcancerfoundation.org/hpv/


"Human papillomavirus (HPV)-positive oropharyngeal cancer (OPC) also known as HPV16+ oropharyngeal cancer or HPV+ OPC is a recognized subtype of Oropharyngeal squamous cell carcinomas (OSCC), associated with the HPV type 16 virus."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HPV-positive_oropharyngeal_cancer


HPV doesn't cause all oral cancers, but it is becoming a bigger and bigger cause of them. In the 1980s about 16% of all oral cancers were HPV-related, but in the early 2000s, that number was 72%, according to researchers at the National Institutes Of Health

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/how-hpv-causes-oral-cancer-2013-6#ixzz2VHCbZSkY

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Response to sinkingfeeling (Reply #61)

Tue Jun 4, 2013, 04:54 PM

64. But maybe it doesn't...

You aren't giving me proof, you are giving me "some correlation" which is not "proof."

Your very link says it's one thing...or the other:

the path that brings people to oral cancer contains at least two distinct etiologies; one through tobacco and alcohol, and another via the HPV virus....


I'm not Michael Douglas, so I can't tell you what his doctor told him. If I had to speculate about what caused his cancer, it was probably one of those two distinct etiologies. Or maybe some other one they haven't identified yet, like too many dental xrays.

We don't know, unless we're him...or his doctor.

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Response to MADem (Reply #64)

Wed Jun 5, 2013, 12:06 PM

68. Wow, I guess you know more than the American Cancer Society and

John Hopkins' pathologists who sure the hell think they can tell the difference.

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Response to sinkingfeeling (Reply #68)

Wed Jun 5, 2013, 12:39 PM

69. I am basing "what I know" on the links YOU gave me. nt

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Response to MADem (Reply #69)

Wed Jun 5, 2013, 12:57 PM

70. However, via pathology, one who knows what they're looking at can identify

various subgroups of SSC. Here's a link of some of the SSC subtypes:


Papillary carcinoma (Code 8050/3)
Verrucous squamous cell carcinoma (Code 8051/3)
Papillary squamous cell carcinoma (Code 8052/3)
Squamous cell carcinoma (Code 8270/3)
Large cell keratinizing squamous cell carcinoma (Code 8071/3)
Large cell nonkeratinizing squamous cell carcinoma (Code 8072/3)
Small cell keratinizing squamous cell carcinoma (Code 8073/3)
Spindle cell squamous cell carcinoma (Code 8074/3)
Adenoid/pseudoglandular squamous cell carcinoma (Code 8075/3)
Intraepidermal squamous cell carcinoma (Code 8081/3)
Lymphoepithelial carcinoma (Code 8082/3)
Other variants of squamous cell carcinoma are recognized under other systems, such as:
Basaloid squamous cell carcinoma
Clear-cell squamous-cell carcinoma
Keratoacanthoma
Signet-ring-cell squamous-cell carcinoma


And my link states:

Human papillomavirus (HPV)-positive oropharyngeal cancer (OPC) also known as HPV16+ oropharyngeal cancer or HPV+ OPC is a recognized subtype of Oropharyngeal squamous cell carcinomas (OSCC), associated with the HPV type 16 virus.

You keep saying there's no proof that one can identify if a cancer is caused by HPV-16 or not. There is plenty of it just like we can identify a certain subtype of cancer via its pathology.

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Response to sinkingfeeling (Reply #70)

Wed Jun 5, 2013, 02:44 PM

71. When Michael Douglas's pathology report is released to the public, we can continue this discussion.

It is entirely unclear as to what he meant, thanks to his PR team.

Your link says there are "at least" a couple of ways people can get oral cancer. Smoking/drinking, or HPV are the two biggies. Smokeless tobacco can cause problems as well. The American Cancer Society says "early sun exposure" is a risk factor, too.

http://www.webmd.com/oral-health/guide/oral-cancer

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Response to MADem (Reply #71)

Wed Jun 5, 2013, 02:47 PM

72. OK, you're stuck on just Mike Douglas and I'm stuck on people being aware

that HPV-16 subtype SCC is a deadly, growing threat to health, already the cause of from 60-72% of all oral and throat cancers. That 'particular' cancer is caused by sexual contact.

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Response to sinkingfeeling (Reply #72)

Wed Jun 5, 2013, 02:55 PM

73. I'm stuck on the guy who is the subject of the OP, yeah.

I don't disagree with your comments about HPV, but we don't know what MD's history -- sexual, suntanning, smoking, drinking, dipping, etc. is. And he's the guy named in the OP, and he made some comments, and then his PR team made some more comments--and there we are.

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Response to MADem (Reply #73)

Wed Jun 5, 2013, 03:01 PM

74. This is my last comment, I promise. The point of the OP article was that

people who experience cancer shouldn't have to explain how or why they got it. To me, MD's a hero because he has spoken out about oral cancers and made millions aware of the HPV-cause of so many of them. I wrote when he first announced he had it and asked him if he wanted to come to one of our SPOHNC meetings.

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Response to Amerigo Vespucci (Original post)

Mon Jun 3, 2013, 04:50 PM

34. I met him once...

Here in San Francisco at the Museum of Modern Art. Later, I moved down to Santa Barbara, California where I worked for an answering service. Guess who had an account? Yes, he did. He was always charming to me.. Sorry to hear of this illness.

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Response to Amerigo Vespucci (Original post)

Mon Jun 3, 2013, 04:59 PM

35. Wow, man hate much?

 

Seriously. I think he did the world a huge favor by telling us this. At least he did me. And, if you read the otehr thread on this, this happens an awful lot.

Good for Michale Douglas to tell us.

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Response to Amerigo Vespucci (Original post)

Mon Jun 3, 2013, 07:00 PM

37. I don't see how an older adult saying they performed

oral sex is a brag. Isn't oral sex extremely common? This is like saying eating a home-cooked meal is bragging. "Servicing" your spouse is what adults do.

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Response to ZombieHorde (Reply #37)

Mon Jun 3, 2013, 10:32 PM

38. Yes. Coming up on Lawrence show.

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Response to ZombieHorde (Reply #37)

Tue Jun 4, 2013, 01:09 AM

39. Best post of the thread!

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Response to ZombieHorde (Reply #37)

Tue Jun 4, 2013, 01:18 PM

48. It might not have been "his spouse" anyway that gave him the HPV that may or may not have caused the

cancer, per the latest reports.

He screwed around MASSIVELY in his younger years; from the Streets of San Francisco days forward. He had a number of "girlfriends," he's had more than one wife, and he was no stranger to what used to be called, quaintly, the One Night Stand.

And, we know he didn't get it from his ex-wife, (who was a teen when he married her back in 1977) at least according to her: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/03/michael-douglas-oral-sex-_0_n_3380751.html

On the heels of Michael Douglas' admission that his throat cancer may have been caused by the human papillomavirus (HPV), which can be transmitted by oral and genital sex, his ex-wife, Diandra Douglas, told TMZ that she does not have the sexually transmitted infection.


But we do know he has a history of infidelity, as well as a resolved drug/alcohol problem. I believe there's an infidelity clause in his pre-nup with CZJ....if he cheats, he pays.

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Response to Amerigo Vespucci (Original post)

Tue Jun 4, 2013, 02:15 AM

40. I'm reminded of how DU reacts when a conservative has cancer.

Some folks in this thread say that people with cancer shouldn't be excoriated as if it were their fault. I agree. Let an Ari Fleischer or a Robert Novak get cancer, though, and you can count on hearing some cackling about "karma" right here on this progressive website.

Sometime in the future, there'll be another report of cancer striking a prominent conservative. When that happens, let's remember what we said in this thread.

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Response to Jim Lane (Reply #40)

Tue Jun 4, 2013, 01:54 PM

50. Well, Michael Douglas was cured of his cancer.

So if there's any karma or deity or other magical absolution happening with regard to cancer (though I rather doubt there is), somebody up there evidently LIKES him.

And funny, you may be "reminded how DU reacts when a conservative has cancer" but I haven't seen that shit happen much if at all. In fact, what I see is that MOST DUers are both decent and compassionate even when a complete asshole gets cancer. Sure, the usual low post count trolls with some iteration of 'liberal' or 'left' in their user names will come in with a zinger, but we know where they come from and you just have to consider the source.

I don't see a "kick him when he's down" theme in this thread, for example:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014266303

and look at the "piling on" after this cancer news:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7650073

Cancer doesn't give a shit what your politics are. I think most people here understand that. Who here hasn't been affected by cancer? I don't know anyone who doesn't have a family member or friend who battled that disease--or who had to deal with it themselves.

Even when a jerk dies, most people can separate the politics and the stances the deceased took from the disease that killed him or her (save those low post count trolls)--and it's not realistic to pretend that a jerk was a saint just because they died of this ailment or that.

I also don't think "pre-emptive scoldings" work very well in this community. You're tarring people with collective guilt ahead of any event, and all that does is make people resentful that you are casting aspersions upon their characters without any reason. Wait until you have your cancer victim from the right wing, wait until someone says something shitty, and THEN speak your peace--to that person who says the crappy thing, not with a great big soppy broad brush to all and sundry. Don't anticipate lousy behavior before it even happens.

IMO, anyway.

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Response to MADem (Reply #50)

Tue Jun 4, 2013, 02:11 PM

52. No, Michael Douglas was not cured of his cancer. He's remained cancer free for

over two years, like I've remained cancer free for the last 4. Squamous cell carcinoma often re-occurs. I have a man in my support group who has been hit with it 5 times!

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11593178

Patterns of spread in recurrent head and neck squamous cell carcinoma.

Of 128 patients, 40 (32%) had recurrent disease, 22 (17%) died without disease, and 66 (51%) are disease free.

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Response to sinkingfeeling (Reply #52)

Tue Jun 4, 2013, 02:15 PM

53. I stand corrected. What we do know is that he was able to play Liberace to Matt Damon's

Scott, and he's not in imminent danger of death by it anytime soon. He can work, live, enjoy life, sun himself on the Riviera, and get regular check ups. The odds are with him, so the magical, mystical Karma/deity that may or may not exist is "on his side." So far, anyway.

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Response to Jim Lane (Reply #40)

Tue Jun 4, 2013, 04:36 PM

63. First of all I don't think Douglas is a Conservative. As far as your main point, disease strikes

anyone regardless of their political beliefs

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Response to Amerigo Vespucci (Original post)

Tue Jun 4, 2013, 01:29 PM

49. "The War of the Roses"

And he's still not answered for that vulgarity.

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Response to Amerigo Vespucci (Original post)

Wed Jun 5, 2013, 06:25 AM

66. It's sickening that some people feel the need to

ask others if they deserve the disease they contracted. People still do it with AIDS. If a child gets it, they're full of compassion, but if a gay person or a drug user contracts it, people shrug their shoulders and go on their merry way. I thought it was pathetic that many people didn't give a shit about people with AIDS until Ryan White got it. It took Ryan White's sickness to get a lot of people to work up a little sympathy. Everyone suffers more or less equally from a disease, no matter how they got it.

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Response to Amerigo Vespucci (Original post)

Wed Jun 5, 2013, 10:51 AM

67. I agree with Ms. Williams.

I've had breast cancer. I've had the intrusive questions of how, the slurs about why, the comments about if. The surprise of those when told that the cause was most probably environmental and not from an abortion, that it wasn't caused from my sinning. And these remarks have come from family and healthcare providers. The conversations that have been started because of the Michael Douglas interview have done much to educate people about cancer. Long overdue to get rid of the victim blaming of cancer patients. The stigma of cancer still exists and an educational public discourse will do much to eradicate the ignorance.

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Response to Amerigo Vespucci (Original post)

Thu Jun 6, 2013, 12:18 PM

75. I'll never understand the mentality that a person has "earned" their cancer.

It's never alright to assume you know the cause of a persons cancer, and above all else it's never acceptable to ask a person if their cancer was caused by such-and-such.

Not all cervical cancer is caused by HPV, and not all lung cancer is caused by smoking, etc. Don't ask, if they want you to know, they'll mention it.

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Response to Amerigo Vespucci (Original post)

Sat Jun 8, 2013, 01:13 PM

77. It gave him the chance to reassert his heterosexuality

He just played Liberace. You will often see rests notices about actors' girlfriends when they play gay in a movie. Heath Ledger even found it necessary to knock up his costar in Brokeback Mountain.

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