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Thu Aug 30, 2012, 06:46 PM

Why You’ll Never Convince Ryan Supporters His "Facts" Are Wrong - Eliot Spitzer

http://www.slate.com/blogs/spitzer/2012/08/30/paul_ryan_convention_speech_his_facts_about_medicare_the_debt_ceiling_and_almost_everything_else_were_wrong_.html


Thinking folks who listened to Paul Ryan’s speech last night may feel as though they are stuck inside a bottle, screaming louder and louder and still not being heard. Ryan’s big lies keep resonating with the public. We keep saying that if that public only heard the truth, they would turn against him and Mitt Romney. If only it were so easy.


Of course—as is now well-documented—Ryan’s distortions about everything from the auto plant to Medicare are fundamental and horrendous. But we all should have learned by now that people understand the facts, or what is alleged to be factual, in a way that will conform to their pre-existing worldview. So the odds of convincing any significant number of voters who believe the Ryan-Romney myths that those myths are false are pretty slim. This is a divided electorate with virtually no undecided voters remaining. Passion, not logic, will determine the victor. Turnout will decide the election. Hence, the Ryan-Romney strategy is to show no doubt, raise the decibel level, and keep pounding. Facts, as they have admitted, will not be the guiding force in their campaign.


Paul Ryan’s bleating about a credit downgrade that resulted from his own party’s obstinacy about the debt ceiling is no better than Tea Party seniors on Medicare screaming: “Get government out of my Medicare.” But this hypocrisy won’t change, and we should stop expecting it to.


We have a binary choice ahead of us: a theologically driven Republican ticket that denies science, reason, logic, and fact, or a president who was too willing to negotiate for no gain, but at least is now fighting the fight. So while we will never stop trying to convert the probably unconvertible, let’s make sure we focus on getting those on our side of the aisle to take the election seriously and turn out to vote.

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Arrow 27 replies Author Time Post
Reply Why You’ll Never Convince Ryan Supporters His "Facts" Are Wrong - Eliot Spitzer (Original post)
Bill USA Aug 2012 OP
lastlib Aug 2012 #1
Bill USA Aug 2012 #2
NavyDavy Aug 2012 #6
JudyM Sep 2012 #22
steve2470 Aug 2012 #3
Baitball Blogger Aug 2012 #4
gateley Aug 2012 #5
Major Nikon Aug 2012 #7
progressivebydesign Aug 2012 #8
Bill USA Aug 2012 #10
Spitfire of ATJ Aug 2012 #9
Cha Aug 2012 #11
Bernardo de La Paz Aug 2012 #12
Cha Aug 2012 #14
Fuddnik Aug 2012 #15
proverbialwisdom Aug 2012 #17
fascisthunter Aug 2012 #13
Curmudgeoness Aug 2012 #16
proverbialwisdom Aug 2012 #18
Curmudgeoness Aug 2012 #20
awoke_in_2003 Aug 2012 #19
ddavis195600 Aug 2012 #21
Grammy23 Sep 2012 #23
mikki35 Sep 2012 #24
meow2u3 Sep 2012 #25
hue Sep 2012 #26
Herlong Sep 2012 #27

Response to Bill USA (Original post)

Thu Aug 30, 2012, 06:51 PM

1. Worth a K &R if only for that last paragraph!

Aweome line!!

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Response to lastlib (Reply #1)

Thu Aug 30, 2012, 07:04 PM

2. Obama's biggest challenge is motivating Democrats to vote, if not for him at least to save the USA

from Rmoney and the Republican Bonfire of the Insanities (anybody for another Trickle Down Deregulation Disaster???).

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Response to Bill USA (Reply #2)

Thu Aug 30, 2012, 07:44 PM

6. well all the people I have talked to on the phone and door knocking are motivated here

in Southern NM anyway........

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Response to lastlib (Reply #1)

Sat Sep 1, 2012, 10:56 AM

22. K&R It is going to be about passion. Hopefully all DUers who can, will work on GOTV efforts

especially in the swing states. Here in VA it is neck-and-neck, we gotta get on it! The on the ground efforts are seeming a little more organized this time around, too, so I'm hoping we get more volunteers registering voters and canvassing!



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Response to Bill USA (Original post)

Thu Aug 30, 2012, 07:05 PM

3. k&r nt

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Response to Bill USA (Original post)

Thu Aug 30, 2012, 07:12 PM

4. I really don't listen to Paul Ryan.

Is he resorting to the, "tell them what they want to hear" philosophy?

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Response to Bill USA (Original post)

Thu Aug 30, 2012, 07:43 PM

5. I love Spitzer -- and totally agree.

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Response to Bill USA (Original post)

Thu Aug 30, 2012, 07:56 PM

7. Once the hard core religious nuts crawled in bed with the GOP, reason and facts are now irrelevant

Once people are convinced that god is on their side, nothing you can say to them is ever going to make a difference. That's what belief is. It's knowing something is true regardless of fact or reason, and these people are conditioned to believe that anyone who dares challenge them is a tool of the devil.

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Response to Bill USA (Original post)

Thu Aug 30, 2012, 08:16 PM

8. They have been brainwashed, literally, in a fashion we haven't seen since the 1930s in Europe.

Not hyperbole in the least. Never has there been a time when a large sector of the media engaged in full on psych ops brainwashing, as they have been since the inception of Rush and Fox News, et al. Most of the folks who believe every word they hear from Glenn Beck or Fox News, grew up in a time when the media was trusted -- when we had systems in place to ensure that there was some honesty in reporting. Those are gone.

Fox News has graphics now that say the ONLY fair and balanced news source. The "only" is bolded and underlined. They are neither fair nor balanced, they are the antithesis of that. And these viewers truly DO believe that what they hear on the "news" is actually true.. otherwise, why would it be on the news? And they accuse CNN of being liberal and biased, because they're being told this.

It's not that people have suddenly become stupid at that age. They have been curated, and groomed, and well.. brainwashed, by experts. I'm sure it's common knowledge to us that Fox employs psych ops people, and others trained in managing behaviors in others. And the NewsCorp has been exposed for tapping phone lines, spying, and other egregious non "news" crimes, and yet there seems to be no backlash among their viewers.

I know people who absolutely believe every lie their hear on Fox, etc. And if they're directed to the truth, they become upset and say that a "liberal" has manipulated that to make their guy look bad. They are simply being brainwashed into being unable to discern truth from fiction. And it's truly no different than the propagandists of our darkest hours in the World's history.

Until someone starts breaking up the media monopolies, until they bring back the Fairness Doctrine, and takes on the corporate media behemoth, the truth tellers will be outnumbered as people will continue to believe lies over truth, and vote for the very people that will harm them.. again and again.

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Response to progressivebydesign (Reply #8)

Thu Aug 30, 2012, 08:28 PM

10. check out what Mike Lofgren, former GOP Cngressional staffer said about the GOP

http://www.democraticunderground.com/101640146


"It should have been evident to clear-eyed observers that the Republican Party is becoming less and less like a traditional political party in a representative democracy and becoming more like an apocalyptic cult, or one of the intensely ideological authoritarian parties of 20th century Europe. This trend has several implications, none of them pleasant."

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Response to Bill USA (Original post)

Thu Aug 30, 2012, 08:26 PM

9. Obviously these people speculating haven't watched FOX "News"

If they had, they would know EVERYTHING Ryan said comes right out of that bubble.

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Response to Bill USA (Original post)

Thu Aug 30, 2012, 08:29 PM

11. Whatever, Elliot..we had you as our Governor

and you fucking blew it.

No, mention of what all President Obama did Accomplish these last 4 years..

"What has Obama Done? Here Are 200 Accomplishments! With Citations!"

http://pleasecutthecrap.typepad.com/main/what-has-obama-done-since-january-20-2009.html

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Response to Cha (Reply #11)

Thu Aug 30, 2012, 08:48 PM

12. You don't like the message, and can't refute it, so shoot the messenger.

Deal with the message.

Pretend somebody else wrote it.

Nobody has to list Obama's accomplishments in every post.

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Response to Bernardo de La Paz (Reply #12)

Thu Aug 30, 2012, 09:20 PM

14. I can list President Obama's Accomplishments

anywhere I feel it's needed. I just refuted Elliot's "message" .. I didn't shoot him..he shot himself.

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Response to Cha (Reply #14)

Thu Aug 30, 2012, 09:37 PM

15. You just proved his point.

"As long as it conforms to their pre-existing worldview".

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Response to Cha (Reply #11)

Thu Aug 30, 2012, 10:35 PM

17. Stand down? No thanks!

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Response to Bill USA (Original post)

Thu Aug 30, 2012, 08:54 PM

13. Fanaticism

They are fanatics... they are the people who would push us to extinction without batting an eyelid. They are the fuckers who build a fire with the very wood on a life boat.

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Response to Bill USA (Original post)

Thu Aug 30, 2012, 09:46 PM

16. "We will never stop trying to convert the probably unconvertible"

is a concept that baffles me-----and I do it too. What is it that makes us keep trying? The only thing I get out of it is frustrated.

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Response to Curmudgeoness (Reply #16)

Thu Aug 30, 2012, 10:37 PM

18. Ah, but many are convertible; witness the desperate lying at the RNC to win those votes.

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Response to proverbialwisdom (Reply #18)

Fri Aug 31, 2012, 06:19 PM

20. They definitely are trying to win votes,

but they are not worried about the die-hards who will vote for a Republican no matter what. And those are the ones that I keep beating myself up with. They hate Obama with a passion that is frightening. They believe every lie, no matter how many times they are proven wrong. These are not the votes they are worried about.....unless (maybe) they admit that Satan has endorsed them. And probably that wouldn't matter to those voters.

It is the reasonable voter who is not sure which way to vote, or has not made up their minds, or who are thinking of voting for Romney but can be swayed that we (and the GOP) are focussed on.

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Response to Bill USA (Original post)

Thu Aug 30, 2012, 11:04 PM

19. Marking to read later. nt

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Response to Bill USA (Original post)

Fri Aug 31, 2012, 06:28 PM

21. great article

 

explains everything, really

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Response to Bill USA (Original post)

Sun Sep 2, 2012, 12:14 AM

23. They also comfort themselves when confronted with the lies....

That "both sides do it". And that is all it takes for them to stick by their candidates. And yes, the brainwashing is real. I have thought about this a lot lately and it really frightens me, especially since I have close relatives who have come under the spell of these evil, nasty people. And that message is even reinforced by their church. It horrifies me and I've done what I could to try to get an alternative message to them to see if I can break through the propaganda. It has been fruitless thus far and almost caused a serious rift in our family. So I have let up for now.

I'm counting on the relentless drum beat of evidence to mount against Romney/Ryan or a huge scandal.....he finally releases his tax returns and there is plenty to embarrass him and bring a shi*tload of questions to be unloaded on him. Oh, please....fingers crossed! But it is going to take a huge thing to turn around these zombies. And I know that many will never be convinced that their men are so terrible. They will cling to the idea that they are "good upstanding Christians" until they have their noses rubbed in the evidence. Sad, but true.....

And the thing that really, really chaps my ass is that if these evil men get elected, ALL of us will pay for that. Not just the ones who voted for them. It will be too late then when all the chickens come home to roost and saying "I told ya so" will be small comfort.

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Response to Bill USA (Original post)

Mon Sep 3, 2012, 11:25 AM

24. Scary, but true

I have a brother whose IQ is ridiculously high - but he has always been weak in subtle, and not-so-subtle ways - tendency towards extreme selfishness, alcoholism, serial marriages, has 2 kids he hasn't seen in many years. He is his own worst enemy, and he's diehard Republican. Won't listen to reason, truth, logic, nothing. Last posting on fb was to hype the 'you didn't build that' bs before I blocked him. He's plenty smart enough to see through the inanity and outrageous cherry-picking, but just can't seem to stop himself.
So, yep, Eliot's got it right, unfortunately. As long as nothing big happens between now and election day - turnout will be the decider. My strong suspicion? Something really big IS going to be a game-changer. Too much money and power-gamesmanship, too many nihilistic egomaniacs, too little transparency, too much instability across the globe...

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Response to Bill USA (Original post)

Mon Sep 3, 2012, 01:58 PM

25. Three words: Right Wing Authoritarianism

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Response to Bill USA (Original post)

Mon Sep 3, 2012, 02:09 PM

26. K&R!!!

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