Joseph Stiglitz Sees Terrifying Future for America If We Don't Reverse Inequality
Last edited Mon Jun 25, 2012, 09:24 AM - Edit history (1)
AlterNet / By Lynn ParramoreExclusive Interview: Joseph Stiglitz Sees Terrifying Future for America If We Don't Reverse Inequality
What will life look like down the road if we don't reverse economic inequality? We must see through the myths of capitalism and build a mass movement if we are to save ourselves.
.....(snip).....
Lynn Parramore: It appears that for most of us, 20 years of economic progress just went up in smoke. But the super-rich are doing very well. What happened there?
Joseph Stiglitz: It's the peculiar nature of the American economy, which is that's it's a very powerful machine that is working for a very few people, and has not been delivering for most Americans. If you had an economic machine that worked the way it was supposed to, everybody would be getting better. And an economy that's normally growing, say, 3 percent, even over a 20-year period. Steady accumulation would lead to their wealth more than doubling in that period. And it clearly hasn't happened. And adjusted for inflation, it would have even increased even before, unadjusted for inflation, would have increased it even more. And that clearly hasn't happened.
LP: There's a persistent myth that America is the land of opportunity. Why is that myth so prevalent, even in the face of so much evidence to the contrary?
JS: Well, there are two reasons for this. One of them is that the myth is so much part of our sense of identity as Americans that it is devastating for us to give it up -- for us to say we are less of a land of opportunity than old ossified Europe. It was one of the things we were most proud of, and clearly, it's not true. When you have something that's so inconsistent with your self image, it's really, really hard to face the facts.
The second reason has to do with the nature of evidence. Everybody know examples of people who make it from the bottom or the middle-bottom to the top. And our press talks about them. The media calls attention to the successes. But when they call attention to successes they don't say this is one of a million or one of a thousand. In fact, the reason they write about it is because they are so unusual. If most people did it, it wouldn't be an unusual story. So, in a sense that's how our media works. It encourages us to think of the exceptions as the norm. .................(more)
The complete piece is at: http://www.alternet.org/economy/155918/exclusive_interview%3A_joseph_stiglitz_sees_terrifying_future_for_america_if_we_don%27t_reverse_inequality/
xchrom
(108,903 posts)closeupready
(29,503 posts)the man is a genius. K&R
Baitball Blogger
(46,532 posts)Beverly Weaver
(2 posts)Fuddnik
(8,846 posts)raouldukelives
(5,178 posts)Inspiring to read a piece that mirrors the way you've been thinking. Helps one to overcome the internal conflict on if they are seeing things correctly or are slightly bonkers. That book is a definite reader.
TahitiNut
(71,611 posts)In my view, the die is cast. We're facing a generation or more of economic Armageddon ... and the only question remaining is how the rebuild will happen. I'm not even optimistic about that. I've been a Cassandra about the implacable decimation of the working middle class for nearly 20 years. Every political and business institution controlling this country's course is under the control of banksters/fraudsters -- the day of the craftsman (people with expertise in OPERATION instead of MONEY) has gone in America. As long as we're in thrall of the MBA -- "I don't have to know how to DO anything ... I can HIRE those ... I just need to make decisions that make MONEY!" -- we'll NEVER reestablish a society in which LABOR is honored. We're a Banana Republic ... a corporate colony in which labor exists SOLELY to enrich the already-wealthy. The GOP/right are totally dedicated to the notion that labor must be CHEAP ... and it's a global race to the BOTTOM. A "nation" now exists solely to facilitate capitalism. We no longer place our NATION and the welfare of ALL The People at a higher priority than, say, the stock market. Corporations have TRILLIONS in reserve, are laying off Americans in favor of Slave-State Labor ... and they STILL want MORE.
Fuck it. I'm glad I don't have children.
Flatulo
(5,005 posts)I used to be somewhat optimistic, but that's gone now, replaced only by a sense of dread, and waiting for the inevitable tipping point to occur.
Blanks
(4,835 posts)I think we still have the capability of being great again.
I believe our biggest problem is that a small group of people have defined for all of us; the only thing of value: money.
I get emails from democrats all the time saying "we're losing, send money". All that means is that the other side has more money.
We have accepted that the only thing that has any value is money. A piece of real estate is only valuable if it has the ability to produce money. It's like mass hypnosis. If you're hungry; you need food. If you're cold; you need shelter (or clothing, or a blanket).
Not here: if you're hungry,you need money, thirsty; money. Cold; money. To get elected; you need money.
Obviously, if the solution to all of your problems is money; whoever controls the money, controls you.
Granted, we have built our entire American culture around affordable energy; this causes us problems because now a huge number of people who can't even get to work, or buy food at the store; without buying gasoline. If you dont mow your lawn; most places will fine you. How many of you would complain if your neighbor went all summer without mowing his/her lawn? If you complain; you're part of the problem. With that one act (complaining) you are joining the masses in saying: you WILL consume the products of the oil companies, or I will make you.
We aren't going to get out of this by marching lock step politically, and we aren't going to get out of this by picketing (at least not exclusively). We are only going to get out of this if we evaluate every action that we take, and see how we can change the world by making changes. A lot of the changes can be small changes.
Ride a bike (if it's realistic), plant food where you can, get a milk producing goat to mow your lawn, or use a non-powered mower (you could probably use the exercise anyway). Any action that you take isn't going to change the world, but it begins to open your mind to just how dependent we are on money. Which is odd because we send things to the landfill that have intrinsic value every day. Money, however, has no intrinsic value.
I have the utmost respect for this administration because they (or at least the first lady) have their own vegetable garden. We should take this and use it as an example of what the future could look like. There is nothing dirty or degrading about growing your own food. This isn't something only the lowest peasants do. This is what people do when they want to eat, especially those who want to eat healthy.
If more people were locavores; Wal-mart would lose its edge. Oil companies would sell less gasoline/diesel and everyone would be healthier. That's a lot of fighting back against big corporations for just one little action by a few people.
TahitiNut
(71,611 posts)"We" believe in the Lone Ranger. "We" believe in 'Let George Do It.' "We" NEVER make such choices for ourselves as long as we're TOLD whom is to blame... and then we spawn snipers. "We" worship a Jesus "who died for our sins." "We" merely look around for the next sucker to die. "We" protest 'war' ... as long as there's draft. After that, we get more upset about a $0.10/gallon price increase in gasoline than 1,000 deaths fighting to make our corporations safe in countries filled with brown people.
"Do It Yourself" has become "Who Can I Screw?" At some point, we'll blame the smokers.
Blanks
(4,835 posts)and they'll do it again. Among the first thing that the occupiers wanted: money.
You can't run an army without resources, and since this is the only resource we recognize.... There you have it.
I gave the local occupiers my farm fresh eggs (and a huge bag of pecans) on a couple of occasions, they seemed to appreciate it and all, but they really seemed to lack direction IMHO.
'We' are never going to get anywhere without a plan to hurt 'them'. This long running unemployment coupled with
Obama's threat to eliminate oil company subsidies; has that group on the offensive.
That's what it looks like when you hurt them. They get ugly, and are somehow able to rally every redneck in this country to bitch about the president. The cost of gasoline is down at the pump, and it coincided with an action by the president. Remember 2008 prices. Hillary Clinton said the president could do something about gas prices; Bush did nothing, Obama took a stance.
When he stands up to a huge industry like that; we should be more supportive. We should remind the rednecks that he's on the job; trying to keep a day on the local (government owned) fishing hole still within their financial reach.
tex-wyo-dem
(3,190 posts)Your quote: "the only thing of value: money." Sums up what fuels capitalism. And this idea is entirely fueled by a very destructive tendency buried deep in our lizard-brain human psyche...that being greed.
There is a reason why greed is one of the seven deadly sins, why greed is lamented in all ancient spiritual texts...in the long run, greed leads to nothing but destruction, suffering and death.
Brigid
(17,621 posts)I wasn't able to; I had to content myself with adopting cats. I used to be sad about that. Not anymore. I fear for my nieces and nephews.
NRaleighLiberal
(59,922 posts)climate change, income inequality, pretty much everything. So many people are just disconnected from reality - to our nation's peril. We are on a very steep slippery slope with little chance of putting on the brakes.
Ichingcarpenter
(36,988 posts)Inequality makes everyone unhappy, the poor most of all, and that is well within the remit of the state. More money gives less extra happiness the richer we get, yet we are addicted to earning and spending more every year. But it is also clear that left entirely untouched by public policy, the capitalist system will produce more inequality than is socially healthy or than is necessary for maximum efficiency. A nation that continues year after year to spend more money on military defense than on programs of social uplift is approaching spiritual doom.
nashville_brook
(20,958 posts)Ghost of Huey Long
(322 posts)"A nation that continues year after year to spend more money on military defense than on programs of social uplift is approaching spiritual doom. " MLK
calimary
(80,521 posts)Nobody cares. Spiritual doom is something that happens to somebody else. Nobody even knows, or cares, what it even is.
I hope that changes, but I'm not terribly optimistic.
Delphinus
(11,796 posts)*so much* for this read!
Cary
(11,746 posts)1. Strong pro-union legislation;
2. Strong regulation, especially in the banking industry; and
3. Progressive taxes.
Simply go back to Teddy Roosevelt, who has become perhaps more relevant today than he was in his own day, and you will see that what we are facing in terms of this concentration of wealth is nothing new.
And yes, it is pernicious. The ability of the oligarchs to sell their agenda to the dumbasses is utterly amazing.
Flatulo
(5,005 posts)We had a system that worked reasonably well 50 years ago. All we have to do is roll back to where we were in the 50s and 60s.
Cary
(11,746 posts)It's funny how "conservatives" slam them without naming names, except FDR of course.
If you want to have some fun ask a "conservative" to explain how FDR managed to win 523 electoral votes in 1936.
Flatulo
(5,005 posts)There was definitely a stronger sense of community and not so much unbridled greed.
Cary
(11,746 posts)We had a common enemy that we overcame together. And then after the war we had Stalin and communism.
But we also had red baiting, terrible racism, and basically a highly repressive decade or so that then unleashed the '60s.
These things are cyclical.
Blanks
(4,835 posts)People just don't realize how damaging Fox "News" has been since it went on the air. I watch Rachel Maddow and feel smarter. I catch merely a short clip of, say, Sean Hannity, and feel like I need an immediate shower.
Brigid
(17,621 posts)It was a couple of years before he died, I think. He said, "We used to be able to get things done in this country. What happened?" Our ancestors just a generation or two ago did know some things.
Kaleko
(4,986 posts)If agreed to worldwide, this would immediately help to curb purely speculative high frequency trading and put the global economy well on its way to recovery.
Cary
(11,746 posts)We used to have that tax too. It would not really affect small traders. The average time these computer traders hold a stock is like 11 seconds. This tax would curb that a little and get it more under control.
Good point Kaleko.
moondust
(19,896 posts)when "they" created a system that allows/encourages some people (CEOs/investors) to become obscenely wealthy at the expense of large numbers of others (working people)?
Duh.
snot
(10,475 posts)the total immersion of most American minds in the right-wing brain-washing machine.
Most American minds are immersed in their own little worlds. In this respect "conservatives" have an advantage. Being unconstrained by reality means that "conservatives" are free to manufacture talking points that appeal to prejudices and misconceptions. While economic conditions are not so favorable the appeal of lies is disconcerting.
But when economic conditions are more favorable "conservatives" have a more difficult time selling their lies. The best example of this are the lies they tried to sell about the Clintons.
This is no reason for us to throw our hands in the air and give up. Quite the contrary, it is all the more reason to fight the oligarchs and to beat them despite their advantages.
They want us to give up. They want us to condemn everyone, and throw our hands in the air in disgust.
snot
(10,475 posts)I believe we've allowed conservatives to take over most of the keys to controlling pretty much everything the financial system, the media, the elections system, and they're fast taking over education.
And I think we've got to understand that big picture and realize that we need systemic reforms in all those areas, or any other gains we make won't last long.
The right-wing media echo chamber is an incredibly powerful tool, and over the years, I've found that, for all the DU'er complaints about it, few actually join in efforts to reform it. I can't help wanting to continue to raise awareness of it.
PS: I think maybe it's Huey P. Long that needs the "don't give up" msg.
Cary
(11,746 posts)I can see how you might interpret my post that way. Sorry.
Most important to understand is that it starts in our own heads.
As much as I allow and listen to discouraging thoughts, not to
mention propagate them to others, the wrong side is winning.
Nobody knows how it will all turn out. Life is full of huge surprises
good and bad. But one thing is certain. If I am apathetic, if I
stand aside and judge, if I am excessively and unproductively
caught up in blame and outrage; if I give up on hope itself,
the wrong side is winning.
I remain hopeful. I don't want anybody else inside my head,
only me & my own conscience telling me what to do, what to
think, how to proceed.
For anyone who may misunderstand the point: this isn't
about non-action, or about overlooking all the overt crimes
taking place.
But recognizing which of my own thoughts are productive, vs
which are discouraging and undermining me, allows me
to choose to be on the right team. Team Hope, and I'm
sticking with it. Go for what is good, leave the crap behind.
Much of it will self destruct anyway, or just fade away, if
not given attention. (for example, polls and trolls, and
feeling bad, that dizzy awful sense of mad)
dotymed
(5,610 posts)propagandized America. IMO, that is where the majority of fault lies. Our MSM, the great equalizer, is now owned by a very few corporations. As we know, their survival and increasing profits rely on lies.
It is unbelievable that in a few decades they (the elite) have been able to legally trash all of the regulations that helped to protect our citizenry from the monopolistic monsters that have been loosed on our nation.
After all of the "puppet regimes" that our CIA has installed throughout the world, it seems they were just dress rehearsals for the enslavement of America. GHWB as vice President after his tenure as the head of the CIA knew all of the tricks to take over a nation. He wasted no time in applying those tricks to America. It has been downhill from there...
I am sure the "plan" was in effect long before the Reagan/Bush years. GHWB was on the scene in Dallas when JFK was assassinated.
snot
(10,475 posts)Huey P. Long
(1,932 posts)They have it all now. There is no recourse. The decent is assured. Wake the fuck up.
Auntie Bush
(17,528 posts)I say , never give up. Work harder and get a Dem majority in all of congress plus a Dem President and change the damn laws to favor the middle class. Raise the taxes on the rich! If we have money and can buy things the corporations will have plenty of business and profits. Maybe they will even move there business back to the states as this is this is where all the action is!
Huey P. Long
(1,932 posts)"work harder" ,hahaha, yeah, thats all that seems to be happening on every front. 'work harder'.
I say again, prepare for hell on earth. Nothing can stop them now.
nashville_brook
(20,958 posts)this has been going on for 30 years. Obama was supposed to be the game changer, and we were told to "hope" for that. well, we did. and here we are.
folks come by their pessimism honestly.
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)DeSwiss
(27,137 posts)...but I'm afraid that this is the trajectory of Capitalism. Once the lawmakers are purchased, they are never returned. Neither is fairness, justice or equality. One cannot use a corrupted system to achieve in-corruption, nor to remove the corrupted from office. Thus leaving only revolution (not necessarily violent) as the only means to defeat it.
- Capitalism is a form of societal cancer. If not cut out it always kills its host. Period.
K&R
. . . as {the usurer} fed on insolvency and controlled legislation, the laws were as ingeniously contrived for creating debt, as for making it profitable when contracted. . . As the capitalists owned the courts and administered justice, they had the means at hand of ruining any plebeian whose property was tempting.
Nor was Adams perception of the nature of law confined to ancient Rome. He was able to see, clearer than his contemporaries, that it is no mere coincidence, nor a lex naturae, that the modern legal system is concerned mostly with the protection of property rights:
Abstract justice is, of course, impossible. Law is merely the expression of the will of the strongest for the time being, and therefore laws have no fixity, but shift from generation to generation. As competition sharpens . . . religious ritual is supplanted by civil codes for the enforcement of contracts and the protection of the creditor class.
The more society consolidates, the more legislation is controlled by the wealthy, and at length the representatives of the moneyed class acquire that absolute power once wielded by the Roman proconsul, and now exercised by the modern magistrate. Thus the modern legal system is infinitely subtle, and its enforcing officers equally efficient, in punishing those forms of theft which are not practiced by the ruling class; but robbery in the market-place is governed by primitive controls which lag far behind the sophisticated mechanisms which company lawyers contrive to circumvent them. One measure of a society is the problems it chooses to solve.
Romes ruling class was unable to restrain its rapacity, even in its own ultimate interest. Adams saw what liberals are rarely willing to admitnamely, that a system based on corrupt practice cannot be saved merely by tinkering with it. The stronghold of usury lay in the fiscal system, which down to the fall of the Empire was an engine for working bankruptcy. Romes policy was to farm the taxes; that is to say, after assessment, to sell them to a publican, who collected what he could. The business was profitable in proportion as it was extortionate, and the country was subjected to a levy, unregulated by law, and conducted to enrich speculators.
MORE: The Economics of Human Energy in Brooks Adams, Ezra Pound, and Robert Theobald - by John Whiting, London University
w0nderer
(1,937 posts)tpsbmam
(3,927 posts)terrifying and infuriating! The book is excellent. The Price of Inequality (Link is to B&N) It's one of the few times I've bought a book when it first comes out.....I usually wait for cheaper versions, second hand books, etc. Splurged on this -- it's worth it.
K&R
The Jungle 1
(4,552 posts)No society at any time in history has been successful with all the wealth at the top.
Citizen United has erected a solid road block. However if Americans ever come to understand that 70% of our economy is based on consumer spending we can end run Citizen United. Boycotts are the answer. There is no reason to buy anything the Koch brothers sell. Just say NO.
tex-wyo-dem
(3,190 posts)Our perception of "the American dream" and exceptionalism is based largely on pure myth pushed by the media. Their anecdotal rags-to-riches stories they like to market are presented with absolutely no context that these examples are very much the exception (no matter how hard we work, most of us now languish in stagnation or fall down the ladder while the already wealthy benefit mightily). The old-timers (those who lived there formative years in the 50s - 70s) also help push the myth since the system actually worked for a majority of people back then.
American capitalism is now largely a massive ponsi scheme that sucks the life out of the once strong and healthy middle/working-class, and it just keeps getting worse.
Skittles
(152,918 posts)it's full steam ahead now
clang1
(884 posts)Uncle Joe
(58,029 posts)Thanks for the thread, marmar.