Russia blames Ukraine for violence, urges West not to support Kiev

[another_liberal]

Source: Reuters

(Reuters) - Russia blamed Kiev on Monday for a surge in violence in southeastern Ukraine and urged the West not to show its support with actions such as imposing new sanctions on Moscow.

Pro-Moscow separatists, backed by what NATO says is the open participation of Russian troops, have launched an offensive in eastern and south-eastern Ukraine and Kiev said on Saturday 30 civilians had been killed in shelling of the city of Mariupol. Russia has denied sending arms and troops to back the rebels and Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said the separatists were responding to attacks by Ukrainian government forces.

"We see attempts to derail the peace process and attempts again and again by the Kiev leadership to solve the problem by using force to suppress the southeast. These attempts lead nowhere," Lavrov told a news conference. "We expect our Western partners ... not to do anything that gives the Kiev authorities the impression that all their actions automatically will win support in the West."

He urged the West not to whip up anti-Russia hysteria and said it would have been naive to believe the separatists would accept being shelled by government forces without responding.

(snip)



Read more: http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/01/26/us-urkaine-crisis-russia-lavrov-idUSKBN0KZ0VS20150126

---

The Foreign Minister has a point in regard to the tragedy in Mariupol. Instead of lashing out reflexively at our favorite whipping boy (the Russian Federation) perhaps it might be a good idea to investigate the incident and see you is really responsible first. If we are supporting the kind of people who would stage an attack on civilians in a cynical effort to then shift the blame and gain international backing, wouldn't it be best we are at least aware that is the case?

[bemildred]

1. Germany urges pro-Russian separatists to halt offensive on Mariupol

Jan 26 (Reuters) - Angela Merkel's spokesman said on Monday the German chancellor had urged pro-Russian separatists to halt their offensive on the east Ukrainian port city of Mariupol, and asked Russia's Vladimir Putin in a call on Sunday to use his influence over them.

"If we want to get out of this spiral of escalation and give diplomacy a chance, then it is absolutely crucial that above all the pro-Russian separatists finally respect the cease fire," Merkel's spokesman Steffen Seibert told a press conference.

Germany reiterated there was a real threat of an escalation of violence in eastern Ukraine without the implementation of the Minsk peace accord, and urged Russia to ensure separatists withdraw heavy weapons as previously agreed.

Asked about possible further sanctions against Moscow, a foreign ministry spokesman said European foreign ministers would meet on Thursday and decide how to react.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/01/26/ukraine-crisis-germany-idUSB4N0T201W20150126?rpc=401

[another_liberal]

2. Good for Chancellor Merkel, at least she isn't complacent about the dangers . . .

She is right that Russia needs to convince the Separatists to cease their attacks. She also needs to convince her allies to stop encouraging the Kiev government that it can win everything just by using enough military force. She particularly needs to do something about the neo-fascist volunteers who repeatedly broke the ceasefire by disobeying Kiev's orders to halt fighting. Those groups currently have it in their seemingly independent power to scuttle any new ceasefire whenever they choose to.

[DetlefK]

4. And Russia needs to realize that Ukraine is a sovereign nation. As is Georgia.

Russia is meddling in Ukraine because it wants some kind of vassal-state as a buffer at the border. That's their geopolitical strategy. Ukraine no longer serves that purpose since the voters are increasingly torn towards the West. So Russia now tries to build a Novorossija-state at the border.

And what about Georgia? Ethnic tensions near the border, Russia invades Georgia in 2008, baddabing-baddabum, two brand-new vassal-states at the russian border on what used to territory of the nation of Georgia.

[another_liberal]

13. Eastern Ukraine is largely populated by ethnic Russians . . .

Russia is not, therefore, merely "meddling" in eastern Ukraine.

As to Georgia: See my reply #11 on this comment string.

[DetlefK]

18. Ethnic Russians that are ukrainian citizens and lived on ukrainian territory for decades.

If they want to be part of Russia, they shall move to Russia. Seems like they don't have any bonds to the Ukraine anyway.

Where was their desire to secede from Ukraine as long as Yanukovicz was in power? There was none. The civil war erupted when Russia portrayed the uprising in Kiev as orchestrated by the West and ukrainian Nazis. Russia stoked the fears, Russia put forth the propaganda, Russia whipped up this war, and the Ukrainians bleed.

[another_liberal]

22. If their families have lived where they are for generations, why should they leave?

For the Kiev government to try forcing them to leave would, of course, be what international law calls "Ethnic Cleansing." Is that what you are suggesting? If so, be aware it is considered a serious "War Crime" and "Crime Against Humanity."

Also, do bear in mind that none of this fighting, dying and destruction would have happened if the United States had not decided it was a great idea to destabilize the democratically elected government of Ukraine and to replace it with our hand-picked flunkies. That is where the lion's share of blame for all of this tragedy truly resides.

[DetlefK]

23. Please enlighten me.

That rumor again that it's all the Great Satan's fault.
Someone chooses to side with the US over someone else? OMG, it's all part of a big plan for US world-domination!!!

- The Ukraine had to decide where to go: closer to EU or closer to Russia. Russia said: "Hey, why not both?" The EU said: "Nope, exclusively us or no deal." - - Ukraine picked Russia+EU, but the people in the Kiev-region didn't want any closer relationship to Russia (standards of living, civil rights... the usual). So they started to rebel in the capital and eventually ousted Janukovicz (or whatever his name is written in roman letters).
- The people in Eastern Ukraine would have liked a closer relationship with Russia. (Ukraine has a pretty clean split when you look at the electorate geographically: East-vs-West) They also got afraid of the ukrainian Neonazis because they thought now discrimination would come.
- And before this could be settled with words, the secessionists picked up their arms.

And where exactly did the US come into that mix? Joining NATO was briefly an issue when Timoshenko was President of Ukraine, but that plan never got much support in the Ukraine and NATO was careful because it would have angered Russia anyways.

Where is your evidence?
At what point do you say "This couldn't possibly have happened by itself. This was orchestrated. And not by the EU, but by the US." ?

[another_liberal]

24. You are entitled to your own opinion . . .

I am only saying what actually happened. If you choose to accept an altered version, that is entirely your prerogative.

[DetlefK]

25. Go on. What made you reach YOUR opinion? Is there something I have missed?

[another_liberal]

29. If we warn a government we don't like to not use its police on violent street demonstrations . . .

And when that foreign government then falls to the demonstrators, we encourage the new government we do like to use all of its military might against opposition protesters, I tend to get very suspicious. The rest is just a matter of reading widely and carefully.

[DetlefK]

30. So... you don't remember how you got that idea that the US is to blame in Ukraine???

Come on! Gimme something to work with!

[another_liberal]

31. It was very clear to anyone who was paying attention, with an open mind . . .

We financed and helped organize the increasingly violent street demonstrations in Kiev. We threatened the democratically elected government with sanctions if they used police force to control the rioters (even after they built barricades, set buildings on fire and shot at the police). When the government fell due to our efforts, we made sure our hand-picked flunkies seized power (also with the help of violent protesters) and when some eastern regions tried to break away from what they saw as an illegal government in Kiev, we encouraged our newly installed puppets to use the Ukrainian military against its own citizens.

That this was all done in the service of our hugely greedy Western mega-bankers and energy corporations kind of goes without saying; after all, that's who our international aggressions always serve.

[DetlefK]

32. Pics or it didn't happen.

[another_liberal]

33. Oh, it happened alright . . .

And you and I get to pay for it, in more ways than one.

[DetlefK]

36. For fuck's sake!!! WHAT EVIDENCE IS YOUR OPINION BASED ON???

You keep arguing that you are right and that I am wrong WITHOUT DELIVERING A SHRED OF EVIDENCE.

You complain that I would share your opinion if I had read/seen what you have read/seen.

WHAT. INFO. IS. YOUR. OPINION. BASED. ON. AND. WHERE. CAN. I. FIND. IT?

[another_liberal]

38. I am not going back to November, 2013, just to bring you up to speed . . .

Look through my Journal entries from then until now. That should give you plenty to work with.

[DetlefK]

39. "Read those 31 pages in my journal and everything will be clear."

I refuse to waste my time with articles about Syria, gas-prices and domestic US-policy.

You could have posted links to one or two articles and this would be settled. "Read hundreds of articles from my journal" is an evasive maneuver because you cannot be bothered to remember what riled you up.

[another_liberal]

40. You wanted to know what I was basing my opinion on . . .

The articles I referenced in those journal pages are a fair sampling of what I have based my opinion on. I am not, unlike some others, just offering my "gut feelings" about what is happening in Ukraine. See what I mean?

[DeSwiss]

34. I didn't think there were any left.

You know, the blind ones who can never see how their own government sticks its dick into anything and everybody on the whole fucking planet -- and then dares them to complain about it -- but these same ones go around complaining about how some other countries are horning in on their act.

- Yeah, I thought they were all gone. Who knew there were some left?

[DetlefK]

37. So... US citizens have no right to complain about the actions of a foreign government?

(I'm not a US citizen btw.)

[allan01]

3. no: i blame you russia. get out of ukrane , which u dont own never have , never will

[iandhr]

5. I am pretty sure a nation state...

… is allowed to defend it's boarders. This will shock the RT people here.

[Adrahil]

6. They'll argue that Novorossiya oops, I mean the Donbass..

... was always part of Russia, and this is just the correction of a past error!

Seriously... newthinking posting that same kind of rationale for the annexation of Crimea.

[another_liberal]

8. So the people don't matter much then . . .

The "borders" have to be protected, and the people can just get blown to pieces in their dozens or be left to freeze to death in their hundreds while those oh so important borders are being violently defended?

The truth is that Ukraine is making war on its own population, and we are giving them the means to do so.

[iandhr]

14. No

Russia is invading the sovereign territory of Ukraine. If Russia wasn't trying to take something that doesn't belong to them these people wouldn't we suffering.

[another_liberal]

15. Is there actually proof, "Russia is invading the sovereign territory of Ukraine?"

Despite so many people saying it's so, I have yet to see any proof of what they are talking about. What evidence, exactly, are you relying on?

[elias49]

19. No evidence. It's a talking point. nt

[DetlefK]

26. Actually, there is, but you like to dismiss proof without saying why.

Russian tank, a model exclusive to the russian army, sighted in Ukraine.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/10/23/us-ukraine-crisis-tanks-exclusive-idUSKCN0IC1GE20141023
"Neither the rebels nor the Ukrainian forces have white circles as their permanent recognized emblem. But another local resident, who gave her name only as Nina for fear of retribution, said she had been told the meaning of the white circles in conversations with passing soldiers who identified themselves as Russian.

"One of them told me: white circles mean this is Russians," she said. "He came to the last house for some water to drink and I asked how you can tell the difference between a Ukrainian or Russian. He said that if it's us, there are white circles on the tanks.""


Russian TV-crew accidentally films soldier with insignia of russian Marines unit in Donetsk.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1017239486


Russia silences russian org that demands answers whether Russia has troops in Ukraine
http://www.rferl.org/content/detention-bogatenkova-soldiers-mothers-russia-ukraine/26643664.html

[bonniebgood]

7. sounds pretty much like the Iraqis trying to kill american troops

on IRAQ LAND so the american snipers troops had to defend themselves. DUH

[another_liberal]

9. We need to stop financing and encouraging these little wars everywhere . . .

Before long, one of them is going to suddenly get a whole lot bigger than we bargained for, and we'll be the ones who feel the resulting concussion.

[LanternWaste]

10. Moscow also blamed Georgia and the Crimea for the violence of the Russian invasion too.

Moscow also blamed Georgia and the Crimea for the violence of the Russian invasion too.

[another_liberal]

11. Except that Georgia invaded South Ossetia first . . .

At the urging of the George W. Bush White House, Georgian troops invaded South Ossetia at the beginning of August, 2008, intending to force their country's claim to that disputed territory. Russia only got involved after American-trained Gerogian troops were already in the South Ossetian regional capital of Tskhinvali. That is an undeniable fact of quite recent history.

[LanternWaste]

16. Fantastic pace of expansionism for Moscow these days, regardless of how you rationalize it.

Fantastic pace of expansionism for Moscow these days, regardless of how you rationalize it.

[DetlefK]

17. And what was Russia's business invading Georgia in retaliation?

If Russia had no selfish motives, why didn't they make this a matter of multilateral diplomacy?

[Elmer S. E. Dump]

12. ho boy

[Nye Bevan]

20. Sounds like Russia is setting up a pretext for a full-blown invasion (nt)

[Igel]

21. They've been working on it.

Other places, too: Latvia issued a recommendation that Latvian be used in the workplace in Latvia, esp. government agencies.

Russia said the order was blatant anti-Russian discrimination.

Notice the switcheroo: Latvia calls it a "recommendation," and, indeed, it has no legal consequences associated with it. Russia reinterprets it as some sort of governmental "order." Speaks much about the Putinian mindset that a recommendation is automatically perceived as an order.

[Duckhunter935]

28. Yep, Russia is saying that same thing

about many eastern European countries. That is the same excuse they have used in Georgia, Moldova, Crimea and Ukraine. If I were those countries, I would be afraid also as Putin has a history of invading other countries.

[Duckhunter935]

27. Russia needs to end this and stop suppying the

"pro-Russians" It is amazing in the last couple of months they have more grads, artillery, trucks and munitions than Ukraine has had even before this started. It takes a lot to maintain a constant offensive along that long of a line of contact. They also have an awesome resupply as they never seem to run low on munitions or military equipment now.

so far at least two international agencies have said the "pro-Russians" killed the people in Mariupol.

Evidence indicates that separatist forces were responsible for this attack: the Grad rockets struck government-controlled territory, the craters and rocket remnants stuck in the ground clearly indicate that the rockets came from due east, the direction of the frontline, and a rebel leader announced today that the rebel attack on Mariupol has begun in revenge for an attack Thursday that killed 13 people in a trolleybus in rebel-controlled Donetsk.

http://www.hrw.org/news/2015/01/24/dispatches-rebels-likely-behind-deadly-rocket-attacks-mariupol

The SMM conducted a crater analysis and its initial assessment showed that the impacts were caused by Grad and Uragan rockets. According to the impact analysis, the Grad rockets originated from a north-easterly direction, in the area of Oktyabr (19 km north-east of Olimpiiska Street), and the Uragan rockets from an easterly direction, in the area of Zaichenko (15 km east of Olimpiiska Street), both controlled by the “Donetsk People’s Republic” (“DPR”).

http://www.osce.org/ukraine-smm/136061

and here is another UN satement

24 January 2015 – United Nations Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon has strongly condemned today's rocket attack in the eastern Ukrainian city of Mariupol which reportedly killed dozens of civilians and left another one hundred injured.

In a statement released by his spokesperson late this evening, Mr. Ban noted that the rocket attack appeared to have been launched indiscriminately into civilian areas, constituting a violation of international humanitarian law.

The Secretary-General also denounced the 23 January unilateral withdrawal from the ceasefire by the rebel leadership and, in particular, the group's “provocative statements” about claiming further territory, adding that this constituted “a violation of their commitments under the Minsk accords.”

http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=49900#.VMWGYZ6uWHs

"unilateral withdrawal from the ceasefire by the rebel leadership and, in particular, the group's “provocative statements” about claiming further territory, adding that this constituted “a violation of their commitments under the Minsk accords."

This is not a good thing and both sides need to ratchet this down. Russia can do this in a minute by pulling his tens of thousands of troops away from the Ukrainian border. Ukraine is in no shape to attack as it's military has been neglected for 20+ years and it can not even hold the ground it has. Ukraine should try a pullback from certain areas as a test and request UN peacekeepers as buffer. They have already lost that portion of the country.

[DeSwiss]

35. K&R

- What this dog needs is a cat.