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Fri Apr 13, 2012, 11:59 PM

Christians are being persecuted, says former archbishop of Canterbury

Source: Guardian

Christians are being "persecuted" and "driven underground" while the courts fail to protect their religious values, a former archbishop of Canterbury has claimed.

Lord Carey said Christians were excluded from many sectors of employment because of their beliefs, "vilified by state bodies" and left in fear of arrest for expressing their views.

The former archbishop's claims are part of a written submission to the European court of human rights, seen by the Daily Telegraph, before a landmark case on religious freedom.

The hearing will deal with the cases of two workers forced out of their jobs after wearing visible crosses, a Relate therapist sacked for saying he was not comfortable giving sex counselling to gay couples, and a Christian registrar who refused to conduct civil partnership ceremonies.

The British Airways worker Nadia Eweida, a Pentecostal Christian, received widespread publicity when she was sent home in 2006 after refusing to remove a necklace with a cross or hide it from sight.

Read more: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/apr/14/christians-persecuted-archbishop-canterbury-carey?CMP=twt_fd

52 replies, 6068 views

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Reply Christians are being persecuted, says former archbishop of Canterbury (Original post)
MindMover Apr 2012 OP
Humanist_Activist Apr 2012 #1
rayofreason Apr 2012 #18
Humanist_Activist Apr 2012 #25
rayofreason Apr 2012 #31
whathehell Apr 2012 #22
Humanist_Activist Apr 2012 #24
Ken Burch Apr 2012 #26
leftynyc Apr 2012 #34
The Magistrate Apr 2012 #35
leftynyc Apr 2012 #41
The Magistrate Apr 2012 #43
leftynyc Apr 2012 #45
muriel_volestrangler Apr 2012 #47
leftynyc Apr 2012 #48
muriel_volestrangler Apr 2012 #49
The Magistrate Apr 2012 #50
Ken Burch Apr 2012 #51
Ken Burch Apr 2012 #40
leftynyc Apr 2012 #42
The Magistrate Apr 2012 #44
leftynyc Apr 2012 #46
muriel_volestrangler Apr 2012 #27
The Magistrate Apr 2012 #29
Permanut Apr 2012 #2
Prophet 451 Apr 2012 #3
Moostache Apr 2012 #10
bluedigger Apr 2012 #4
msongs Apr 2012 #5
AlbertCat Apr 2012 #6
Joe Bacon Apr 2012 #7
Anarcho-Socialist Apr 2012 #8
The Magistrate Apr 2012 #32
siligut Apr 2012 #9
Posteritatis Apr 2012 #11
kwassa Apr 2012 #12
sarcasmo Apr 2012 #13
whathehell Apr 2012 #23
sarcasmo Apr 2012 #33
dmallind Apr 2012 #38
NoodleyAppendage Apr 2012 #14
whathehell Apr 2012 #21
sarcasmo Apr 2012 #39
nanabugg Apr 2012 #15
Ruby the Liberal Apr 2012 #16
philosopherdog Apr 2012 #17
JNelson6563 Apr 2012 #37
LeftishBrit Apr 2012 #19
muriel_volestrangler Apr 2012 #28
grantcart Apr 2012 #20
treestar Apr 2012 #30
crunch60 Apr 2012 #52
truebrit71 Apr 2012 #36

Response to MindMover (Original post)

Sat Apr 14, 2012, 12:02 AM

1. Its not the courts job, nor the government, to protect religious values of hatred and bigotry.

And companies can regulate the appearance of workers on the clock.

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Response to Humanist_Activist (Reply #1)

Sun Apr 15, 2012, 12:57 PM

18. Do you support the Hijab ban? n/t

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Response to rayofreason (Reply #18)

Sun Apr 15, 2012, 02:00 PM

25. Only if it interferes with a dress code for a business and/or safety issues...

a public ban isn't necessary and is too restrictive on personal expression.

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Response to Humanist_Activist (Reply #25)

Sun Apr 15, 2012, 09:41 PM

31. I agree with you on the public ban...

..what someone does off the clock is no one's business.

I also agree with your statement

"And companies can regulate the appearance of workers on the clock."

Companies should be free to regulate employee appearance in order to further the aims of the business. So a weight loss clinic should be free to hire only slim people to work reception, for example. And if a company wants to ban the display of religious symbols in the workplace because they think that there might be some clients who take offense at the display of such symbols, that is the right of the employer.

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Response to Humanist_Activist (Reply #1)

Sun Apr 15, 2012, 01:41 PM

22. So it's only "Christians" who have "religious values of 'hatred and bigotry'"?

Check out the record on "honor killings" some time.

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Response to whathehell (Reply #22)

Sun Apr 15, 2012, 01:59 PM

24. Did I restrict it to Christians only? n/t

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Response to whathehell (Reply #22)

Sun Apr 15, 2012, 03:10 PM

26. "honor killings" aren't the fault of ANY religion

they're a cultural thing...and will probably die out on their own.

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #26)

Mon Apr 16, 2012, 11:27 AM

34. So should we just wait

until these cultures decide to get civilized? Or are we just being colonialists for mentioning how abhorant and loathsome they and the cultures that practice and support them are?

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #34)

Mon Apr 16, 2012, 11:34 AM

35. Of Course They Should Be Denounced, Sir, And They Are Denounced Here, Routinely

The fact that they occur, however, has no bearing on the fact that any claim Christians are subject to persecution in England, or for that matter in the United States, is delusional nonesense.

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Response to The Magistrate (Reply #35)

Tue Apr 17, 2012, 08:55 AM

41. I made no such claim

I was responding to a specific post about honor killings.

P.S. I'm a woman

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #41)

Tue Apr 17, 2012, 09:36 AM

43. In This Context, Ma'am, There Is No Other Reason For Bringing The Topic Up

A Christian clergyman made the ludicrous claim that Christians are persecuted in England, and a Christian apologist here trotted up to endorse this claim, offering as proof a claim that people on this forum do not attack Moslems for honor killings. You waded in in support of his claim.

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Response to The Magistrate (Reply #43)

Tue Apr 17, 2012, 10:50 AM

45. Then take it up with the person

that brought it up. That wasn't me. But to say that Islam doesn't get a pass on this board is putting your head in the sand.

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #45)

Tue Apr 17, 2012, 11:03 AM

47. I don't think Islam 'gets a pass' on DU

I'd like you to show me examples of it, please. There's criticism, for instance, here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/121820489

in which some Muslims, embodied by Mohammed, are called hypocritical when attacking science one moment, and embracing it the next when they think it would suit their prejudices.

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #47)

Tue Apr 17, 2012, 12:58 PM

48. Oh please

You've been here a long time - almost as long as I have. If I hear one more claim about cultural relativism or how we have no right to impose our belief system as we are imperialists, I just may scream (and have on many threads). If you haven't seen it, you haven't been looking for it or are dismissive of it. It gets complained about (certainly by women) plenty. Their stance on science is the least of it.

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #48)

Tue Apr 17, 2012, 02:05 PM

49. "It gets complained about (certainly by women) plenty"

So what's you problem? We complain about it.

No, we can't impose a belief system - because that requires force. That's what's "imposing" is about. You yourself have denied wanting to use force, so "we can't impose a belief system" is your attitude as well.

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #49)

Tue Apr 17, 2012, 02:07 PM

50. A good Point, Sir

Not for nothing has it been said 'The willingness to see violence done is the test of sincerity in human affairs."

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #48)

Wed Apr 18, 2012, 07:41 PM

51. Nobody was saying that other cultures could NEVER be criticized.

It's more about what is done in the name of changing bad things within other cultures. What you are running into is a deep well of fully justified suspicion about this country taking up the "We have a civilizing mission" mindset. That mindset always puts us on a slippery slope to imperial conquest.

Also, if you remember early 20th Century European countries, you would recognize that "honor killings" are the equivalent to the way that rhetoric about the alleged bayonetting of Belgian infants by Imperial German troops was used to whip up fervor for British and then U.S. involvement in World War One.
Every demagogue in American politics that wants even bloodier U.S. involvement in Iran and other Middle East countries references honor killings to get people baying for blood.

And again, honor killings have nothing to do with Islam. They have appeared in cultures around the world(including the cultures of some "Christian" nations-and they predate the arrival of Islam in what is now the "Islamic" world, which means they were happening when those countries were Christian(that was the majority religion in most Near East countries at one point)and that the Christian authorities in those countries must have done nothing to even try to stop the practice.

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #34)

Tue Apr 17, 2012, 01:59 AM

40. What do you want?...we can't relaunch the Crusades.

And the United States has no moral standing to change any other culture by force anyway. To even try to do so would automatically be reactionary. We never just do good things after an invasion and leave it at that. Our leaders always end up exacting a price.

Only the people in those cultures can legitimately change them. People from "the West" can support those people and encourage them in their work, but we can't impose those changes on a culture that doesn't want them. To do that is to guarantee that everyone within those cultures will resist us.

It's about boundaries, and avoiding self-righteous arrogance. And it's about recognizing what this country is and is NOT entitled to do in this world. If you cease to recognize that, if you buy into the "civilizing mission" bullshit, you cannot avoid ending up in Bush/Cheney territory, and once you've gone there...you no longer have any humanity.

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #40)

Tue Apr 17, 2012, 08:56 AM

42. I don't see anyone (certainly not me)

saying anything about using force so your whole strawman argument is nothing but a waste of time and space.

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #42)

Tue Apr 17, 2012, 09:40 AM

44. Actually, Ma'am

On reading this " So should we just wait until these cultures decide to get civilized? Or are we just being colonialists for mentioning how abhorant and loathsome they and the cultures that practice and support them are?" many people would reasonably feel they were in the presence of a call for action, which did not necessarily scruple at violence....

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Response to The Magistrate (Reply #44)

Tue Apr 17, 2012, 10:53 AM

46. "not necessarily"

No - you don't get away with that claim. It was in no way a call for violence - merely for speaking out when we see things that are wrong. If you interpret that any other way, the problem is yours.

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Response to whathehell (Reply #22)

Sun Apr 15, 2012, 05:03 PM

27. Western courts and governments don't support 'honour killings'

and no-one is going to court to try to make them do so; so I can't see why you bring them up.

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #27)

Sun Apr 15, 2012, 05:11 PM

29. It Is A Sort Of A Two-Fer, Sir

He can pose as an opponent of bigotry, while at the same time invoking bigotry....

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Response to MindMover (Original post)

Sat Apr 14, 2012, 12:15 AM

2. So let's see...

This clown is sort of like the thumpers on this side of the pond, and argues that he, and all other persons who pass his litmus test of beliefs, can stick their stuff in my face, and if I don't like that, then I'm interfering with their rights - "persecuting" them. Okay, got it.

You'd think someone that far up in the heirarchy would be able to distinguish between beliefs and behavior.

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Response to Permanut (Reply #2)

Sat Apr 14, 2012, 12:30 AM

3. Pretty much

Thumpers aren't all that common here but we do have a few and he's become one of them in his old age.

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Response to Permanut (Reply #2)

Sat Apr 14, 2012, 12:48 PM

10. Help, help I'm being repressed!

Now we see the violence inherent in the system!!!

[link:|

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Response to MindMover (Original post)

Sat Apr 14, 2012, 01:11 AM

4. It was inevitable, wasn't it?



How long did they expect for the lions to leave them alone?

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Response to MindMover (Original post)

Sat Apr 14, 2012, 01:28 AM

5. I bet 90% of all my co workers and employers are or were xtians. persecution must pay off lol nt

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Response to MindMover (Original post)

Sat Apr 14, 2012, 02:11 AM

6. Awwwwww....

They can't wear their crosses at work....in a very few instances...

But there's a church on every other street corner.

They get fired for not doing their jobs.

That never happens to anybody else!


Poor, poor, put upon Christians!

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Response to MindMover (Original post)

Sat Apr 14, 2012, 08:39 AM

7. So here are a bunch of people answering that idiot's call to arms

Yesiree, Onward, Christian Soldiers!

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Response to MindMover (Original post)

Sat Apr 14, 2012, 09:10 AM

8. He means that he feels persecuted because he can't legally persecute others

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Response to Anarcho-Socialist (Reply #8)

Mon Apr 16, 2012, 10:59 AM

32. That Is It In a Nut-Shell, Sir

These people are so used to a playing field tilted in their favor that they perceive a level one as being tilted against them.

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Response to MindMover (Original post)

Sat Apr 14, 2012, 10:40 AM

9. He is not looking for equality at all, he wants special exceptions for Christians.

He said there was a "drive to remove Judeo-Christian values from the public square" and argued that UK courts had "consistently applied equality law to discriminate against Christians" as they showed a "crude" misunderstanding of the faith by treating some worshippers as "bigots".


He is a bigot plain and simple.

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Response to MindMover (Original post)

Sat Apr 14, 2012, 01:24 PM

11. The current archbishop's certainly an upgrade from this dolt. (nt)

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Response to MindMover (Original post)

Sat Apr 14, 2012, 02:03 PM

12. Lord Carey is a right-wing nutjob.

The Church of England is really in need of a good leader; the current ABC Rowan Williams isn't it, either, and he is retiring, fortunately.

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Response to MindMover (Original post)

Sat Apr 14, 2012, 07:01 PM

13. The headline makes me laugh every time.

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Response to sarcasmo (Reply #13)

Sun Apr 15, 2012, 01:45 PM

23. Do you laugh when you hear about "muslim persecution" or "honor" killings?

Nah...I didn't think so.

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Response to whathehell (Reply #23)

Mon Apr 16, 2012, 11:02 AM

33. Religion is all a joke, not just chrisitanity.

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Response to whathehell (Reply #23)

Mon Apr 16, 2012, 12:36 PM

38. When Muslims claim to be persecuted in countries where they are the majority yes I do

I'm sure Christian persecution is quite real in some places too. England however is not one of them.

Persecution is a bit more than being stopped from oppressing, bullying and demeaning others, which SLIGHTLY reduced opportunity in the last decade or two is the sole reason for this priest's turbulence.

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Response to MindMover (Original post)

Sat Apr 14, 2012, 07:20 PM

14. Good. It should be socially embarrassing in the 21st century to believe in fairyland.

It's high time that the tide shifted back towards the Enlightenment. It's personal freedom to believe in fairyland stuff, but don't expect to do well in a global economy where Dark Ages thought is anachronistic.

J

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Response to NoodleyAppendage (Reply #14)


Response to NoodleyAppendage (Reply #14)

Mon Apr 16, 2012, 08:02 PM

39. +1

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Response to MindMover (Original post)

Sat Apr 14, 2012, 11:30 PM

15. Isn't that what Christians should want? "Blessed are they that are persecuted for my sake..." nt

 

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Response to nanabugg (Reply #15)

Sat Apr 14, 2012, 11:34 PM

16. It is widely held that this refers to people who are actually

persecuted for their beliefs, not this crap this dude is peddling, and I say this as a Christian.

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Response to MindMover (Original post)

Sun Apr 15, 2012, 12:43 PM

17. All worshipers of the One True God

All worshipers of the One True God need not fret about what the secular world thinks or does about how or why they (we) worship. The problem is that to be an honest and sincere believer, one must first realize that God is within and so we must look inward to find God. The unbelievers will always feel threatened by the believers and this has been ongoing since the beginning of time I can only imagine, however, to put some light on the subject, God worship is to be subordinate and lowly, humble and divine. We are to "pray" for the leaders and not "contend" with policy, or try to control how the world works.

All believers work better as underground operatives stepping out into the frey only to snatch an innocent victim from being the means to someone else's end. We knock them out and drag them back underground with us and show them what it really and truly means to be a human. When they are strong enough we set them free by showing them the way back to society where we leave them with a warning not to expose themselves to evil or to them who practice evil things.

The end is always near to them who practice vile things but eternity is always with them who pray.

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Response to philosopherdog (Reply #17)

Mon Apr 16, 2012, 12:18 PM

37. Wow.

Last edited Mon Apr 16, 2012, 06:39 PM - Edit history (1)

The unbelievers will always feel threatened by the believers and this has been ongoing since the beginning of time...

While there was a time where it was commonplace to be burned at the stake for being an unbeliever, establishing good cause to feel threatened, for the most part we unbelievers are free to go about our unbelieving ways.


I can only imagine, however, to put some light on the subject, God worship is to be subordinate and lowly, humble and divine. We are to "pray" for the leaders and not "contend" with policy, or try to control how the world works.

Good idea, keep far away from Government. We agree on that point at least.

This really knocked my socks off though....

All believers work better as underground operatives stepping out into the frey only to snatch an innocent victim from being the means to someone else's end. We knock them out and drag them back underground with us and show them what it really and truly means to be a human. When they are strong enough we set them free by showing them the way back to society where we leave them with a warning not to expose themselves to evil or to them who practice evil things.

Astounding! You abduct people, hold them captive until they see things your way and then you set them free when they are conditioned enough to avoid what you teach them is evil. Wow!

And you show them what it "really and truly means to be human"?? So if someone doesn't believe as you do, does that make them sub-human or what?

"The end is always near to them who practice vile things but eternity is always with them who pray."

Interesting, reading this post from you has felt rather like an eternity.

Julie

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Response to MindMover (Original post)

Sun Apr 15, 2012, 01:03 PM

19. Carey is very untypical of British Christians or indeed clergy

He was appointed Archbishop by Thatcher, and is currently into promoting the right-wing viewpoint, e.g.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2091331/Welfare-reform-Ex-Archbishop-Canterbury-Lord-Carey-blasts-clerics-oppose-benefits-cap.html#ixzz1kYRVlL7d

There were very few people involved in the legal cases quoted here. Though I do think that the demands on people to remove crosses are examples of 'jobsworth'-ism run mad, they were in the context of forbidding any jewellery or pendants. As regards the registrar: surely it's a registrar's job to conduct any marriage/partnership ceremony - and as I doubt that she was also refusing to conduct second marriages of divorced people, for example, it sounds as though she was targeting gays specifically, rather than all ceremonies that went against strict Biblical principles.

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Response to LeftishBrit (Reply #19)

Sun Apr 15, 2012, 05:10 PM

28. Carey is the only public figure I've had a rude email from

I wrote him an email saying a speech he made was scare-mongering, when he misrepresented the bill to allow churches that wanted to to perform civil partnerships (he claimed it would force all churches to, when it explicitly said it was up to each church); and his reply was both dismissive and rude. Not what I'd expected from a clergyman, especially a senior one.

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Response to MindMover (Original post)

Sun Apr 15, 2012, 01:27 PM

20. Those Christians who manufacture complaints about being persecuted while being members of the single


wealthiest, most powerful religious group on earth bring more disrespect to the memory of the brave followers of Christ who were tortured and killed en masse in the first two centuries than any non believer ever could.

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Response to MindMover (Original post)

Sun Apr 15, 2012, 05:14 PM

30. It is not persecution to have to wear a work uniform

She is free to practice her religion.

These people never realize that what they are saying is that the most important part of their religion is something like this. She can go to church, be active in the church, pray, etc., but it's all nothing if she can't wear that cross with her work uniform.

It's like those who melt down over the idea of taking "In God We Trust" off of US money. You can still go to church, be active, pray, proselytize, but darn if your country's money doesn't refer to God, you are persecuted!

It's admitting to us that their religion is shallow.

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Response to treestar (Reply #30)

Wed Apr 18, 2012, 09:21 PM

52. Although I am an ex-catholic, I still wear a cross. When I was at work

 

it was hidden under my t-shirt. I am still the same spiritual person regardless
of where my cross is on my body. Still free to practice my beliefs. I did not feel persecuted in any way obeying the dress code of the company.

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Response to MindMover (Original post)

Mon Apr 16, 2012, 11:54 AM

36. What a load of bollocks.

..

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