Ferguson officials: Where was the National Guard?
Source: St. Louis Post Dispatch
FERGUSON • As ruins of about a dozen businesses here smoldered today, an "extremely frustrated" Mayor James Knowles III was asking what happened to onetime plans to shield vulnerable businesses with a protective line of Missouri National Guard members.
"The National Guard was not deployed in enough time to save all our businesses," he said in a press conference just after 2 p.m., calling the delay "deeply disturbing."
Earlier, in an interview, the mayor said: “What should have happened last night? They should have had National Guard troops protecting the hard targets in Ferguson and allowed law enforcement to pursue a very mobile crowd of looters and arsonists. That’s the problem. They (the police) could not secure the commercial districts.”
...
St. Louis city officials said they requested 400 Guard troops, which were deployed by Police Chief Sam Dotson to protect government buildings and businesses. They delivered what a mayor's aide said was a good result.
Read more: http://www.stltoday.com/news/article_343a2224-4d61-54fb-b5ac-a13ea99951f7.html#.VHTy6ZSDuhQ.twitter
Gov. Nixon just has a presser where he stated that there was 700 Guardsmen "in the area" last night. And about 150 were deployed to the Ferguson police station/command center later on last night - that was the only Ferguson commitment of Guardsmen.
If 400 were deployed in the city of St. Louis proper (not Ferguson), then there were not enough Guardsmen to protect structures in Ferguson itself.
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NoJusticeNoPeace
(5,018 posts)Resources to be destroyed
underpants
(182,603 posts)The burning shows up better on the TV at night too
phil89
(1,043 posts)The people taking part in that should be in jail. Utterly despicable behavior.
KeepItReal
(7,769 posts)Or a police officer.
There was a plan to protect these businesses that was discarded.
That is the issue.
belzabubba333
(1,237 posts)cause violence never solved anything.
the utterly despicable thing was the grand jury charade
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)no one tried to stop it, either...
KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)Lurks Often
(5,455 posts)Presuming worst case scenario, the MO National Guard opens fire with M-16A2 rifles or M-4 carbines (depending on what is standard issue for the units involved) and you get a repeat of Kent State or even worse. Magnify the pressure for criminal charges to be brought in such a case by about a 1000.
It's entirely possible the leadership AND the rank and file in the MO National Guard units complied to the bare minimum required to actually obey what the Governor ordered without exposing themselves to undue risk.
happyslug
(14,779 posts)Last edited Fri Nov 28, 2014, 12:13 AM - Edit history (3)
Billy clubs MAY be issued, any firing of weapons will be by a Police Officer working with the Guard OR a designated "Shooter" under the direction of the officer in charge (And then only when in full riot guard, in a riot line).
Thus protecting buildings is something such Guardsmen could do, equipped with Riot shields and batons, but NO weapons. Such National Guardsmen would be under their own Officers but acted as Riot Police in a Riot Line with Riot equipment. They could contain any rioters to one part of town, or deny them access to another part of town by forming Police Riot lines to make sure no one goes where they do not want people to go. Thus they can contain the riot or prevent the rioters from hitting a part of town no one wants the rioters to go to.
Now, some National Guardsmen would be put under the command of Police Officers. These Officers would would retain the right to open fire, but the guardsmen would NOT have that right (and no weapons). Such Guardsmen would be under the command of the Police Officers and do what he wants them to do. Form a line, guard prisoners, guard buildings etc. All under the command of what ever Police Officer the Guardsmen are assigned to. This the Guardsmen act as force force multipliers, they increase the number of people around a police officer, so each police officer can operate against a large group of people. i.e. the Police Officer directs any National Guardsmen attached to to the Officer, so the Officer can do what the Officer is trained to do to put down the riot.
In simple terms, no Guardsmen are given firearms in such situation, unless we have reports of actually gun fire from the rioters and so far we have NOT had any such reports in Furguson. Rumors and stories of gun fire are NOT Reports, something more is needed them someone saying he or she heard gunfire.
Wikipedia has an extensive report on Kent State but then adds to its report that there has been improvements in Riot Control since Kent State do to Kent State. That is a bunch of malucky. The techniques used at Kent State were the same tactics they used in the 1960s civil rights riots and the same techniques they use today. You have some improvement in equipment, such as Tasers, but we do today, what I was trained to do in the 1980s and my Father in 1941. If you are using your rifle, you put your bayonet on its tip but keep the scabbard on the bayonet until ordered to remove it (an order rarely given).
If you have access to body armor, you wear it (something my father did not have, but I had, through mine, which I used in the 1980s was Ballistic Nylon not Kevlar which the modern body armor is made of). The Body Armor I was issued for Riot Control had been purchased in the 1960s for use in Vietnam, when used in a riot it was to protect you from any rock being thrown. Face shields were also common by the 1960s, I was issued one in the 1980s. The Police at Kent State had Body Armor (Ballistic Nylon) and Face shields. The Guard had their M17 Protective Masks which could be used for the same effect (No armor no face shields but they did have SOME protection for the face). Everyone had helmets.
I bring this up, for while you have more armor and shields today then in the the 1960s, the tactics remain about the same. You use group of men in a riot line to direct and control the "rioters". They main defence is the man standing next to you in line NOT the body armor, Helmet or face shield. It is acting as one that is the most effective riot control mechanism not anything else.
Side note: Kent State:
Kent State was a HUGE mistake (and more than one). The Guard had been issued their M1s to guard bridges alone the Interstates during a Trucker strike, and when moved from the Strike to Kent State retained their arms. This was the first and second mistakes, First sending in troops that had had little rest while they guarded bridges, and second NOT taking away their M1 rifles. Batons would have been a better choice. Batons and Riot Shields. Both relatively cheap even then.
The third mistake was to issue ammunition. There was NO need to issue any ammo. No one had open fired on anyone (unlike the earlier trucker strike where shots had been fired). Now they were rumors of radicals heading for Kent State, but you always have such rumors, there was NO solid evidence of anything occurring other than a riot (and yes, I understand the Students said it was nothing more then a protest, which turned out to the the truth, but I am going by what the National Guard was hearing and it was that a "Riot" was occurring and what the National Guard did based on that report which had some credibility to it, unlike the reports of radicals heading for Kent State and snipers at Kent State both "rumors" had no credibility at all).
In such situations, you sent in the National Guard equipped for Riot Control. Either billy clubs and riot gear (how I was trained in an Urban Pennsylvania National Guard unit) or with Bayonets on the rifle but with their covers still on them (how I was trained in a Rural Texas National Guard unit). In the case of Kent State they went in with Bayonets and M1 rifles. That was NOT a problem. Proper technique is to go in as a riot line with such rifles and drive any rioters away from you by pointing the bayonet at them. People suddenly realized they have an important date somewhere else when they see men doing a bayonet charge at them (And if the charge is a slow half step stomp, they have time to remember that important appointment). In many ways to this day a bayonet charge (while staying in formation at half step) is the most effective way to move people from where you do not want them to be.
In the case where such tactics face people with firearms, conventional infantry tactics are called for, but at Kent State no firearms were reported being used against the Police of the Guard. Thus traditional line riot control lines were all that was needed even if the Students were in a full riot mode.
Now to the reports of radical heading for Kent State, all you do in such situation is watch who is turning off the Interstate and control who is entering the town. You arrest such outsiders and see if they have any weapons. No weapons, tell them they should leave. If you find weapons make an arrest. As to the actual Riot line you still do NOT give the troops ammunition, instead you have one man in the unit designated a "Marksmen" who is given ammunition but stays behind the Riot line along with the officer in charge. The Officer decides if someone needs to be shot and points out the target to the Marksmen. The men on the Riot Line stay in their line, it is the job of the marksmen to open fire and then only when told. Thus if someone did open fire, the unit can respond to it but the riot line even if equipped with rifles and bayonets stay in line. The men on the line leave the people with the right to open fire (the Police or the designated marksmen under the command of an officer). The job of the men in the line is to hold the line.
Thus giving out ammunition was a HUGE mistake. Should NOT have been done and I have to disagree with the Wikipedia Post on Kent State, they knew that at that time. Someone with the rank of Colonel or above should have been court martialed for ordering the issuing the ammunition when it was NOT needed. The reports of snipers had NO merit, and their knew this from previous riots when Snipers were extremely rare (if any did occur, an example of reports of snipers can be seen in the British report snipers fired on them on Bloody Sunday, it later turn out the report was an out and out lie which is typical of such reports, rumors and stories of people hearing but no one can find an eyewitness, a sniper or even an victim of the sniper, on Bloody Sunday you ended up with 14 dead from Army rifle fire).
More on Bloody Sunday:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Sunday_%281972%29
Now, the issuing of ammunition was bad, but then further mistakes occurred. All of these mistakes were failures at the officer's level, officers who should have been court martialed but the State of Ohio tried to put the blame on the enlisted ranks instead (Thus the tape recording shows an order was given, but in a way that is weird, more below).
I would like to say the officer's mistakes ended with the issuing of the Ammunition, but it did not. On the day of the shooting, the Officers of the National Guard made two more mistakes,. First they decided to "Clear" an area of the campus that students used as a meeting place AND it was how many students went from one class to the next. It was like closing a major highway, and wondering why traffic is all tied up.
The next mistake was HOW the above was carried out. The Guard moved in and pushed out the "Rioters", up and over a hill and clearing the area. The Soldiers involved number 77 men, but were from different Guard Units, Some were from Company A of 1st Battalion of the 145th Infantry. The rest were from Troop G of the 2nd Battalion of the 107th Armored Cavalry. Thus these soldiers were not even from the same BATTALION let alone Company. What a mess.
Side Note: Units work best when they have worked together in the past, thus having two companies from two different battalion is a big no no. It is like throwing a game where you pick 11 men off the street against the local Collage football team, you are going to lose no matter how good are the 11 men you pick, you will lose even if the 11 men are all all pro bowl men from the NFL, i.e you have 11 individuals against an actual TEAM).
Side Note: Troop is the name for a Company of Cavalry, armor tends to view itself as Cavalry thus tend to retain the use of the word "Troop" instead of "Company" but in most cases the formation is the same. Cavalry can be mechanized infantry or armor in today's Army (Through most Cavalry formation are Tank Formations). I suspect in the 1970s Troop G was a National Guard Armored (Tank) unit but I can NOT confirm that. Tanks have less men then infantry units (Five men to a tank,instead of the 12 men to a leg infantry Squad).
I bring up the above two side notes to point out you had a mess of a command structure on top of the unit moving to far. At Kent State you had two units acting as one, and one of those units were acting as dismounted Infantry when they were trained to be tankers. Some how you ended up with 77 men (to small for an Infantry Company, to large for a Tank Company of dismounted Tankers) from two units. You thus had people shoulder to shoulder who have NEVER worked together before as a unit. I suspect they had followed orders, but it was clear they had to retreat, but no one knew who to give the order (or who to call on the radio for permission to withdraw) for the line of command was unclear.
Now combined units have work well when the line of command is clear, but I suspect the line of Command was NOT clear at Kent State thus the confusion and the ten minute discussion of what to do (no one wanted to give the order to retreat, but that is what the Guard had to do).
This was the final mistake and in many ways the Fatal Mistake.
According to some reports the unit sat they for about 10 minutes while some guardsmen gathered together and argue what to do (Probably the NCOs getting together to decide what to do) Then the unit started to retreat, but after just a few minutes some soldiers turned and opened fire.
Other reports said the retreat had not yet begun when the men opened fire. For this discussion which occur is moot, the guards opened fire while out flanked and had not retreated to a safe position.
Now, it such situation the enlisted ranks would have quickly saw they were outflanked, and that was BAD for them, it did not take a military genius to determine that. Scared, in a bad situation, the guardsmen opened fire. This was a mistake, but it is at least understandable for it was result of the mistakes made BEFORE the troops even started this maneuver. I can understand WHY the men opened fire, the real crime was the incompetence of how those troops ended up on that hill).
In 2010 a recording of the shooting was analysis and it records someone ordering the Guardsmen to prepare to fire (but the word Fire is NOT heard on the tape).
a male voice yells "Guard!" Several seconds pass.
Then, "All right, prepare to fire!"
"Get down!," someone shouts urgently, presumably in the crowd.
Finally, "Guard! ... " followed two seconds later by a long, booming volley of gunshots.
The entire spoken sequence lasts 17 seconds. Further analysis of the audiotape revealed that four pistol shots and a violent confrontation occurred approximately 70 seconds before the National Guard opened fire.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings
http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2010/05/new_analysis_of_40-year-old_re.html
The actual recording:
http://www.cleveland.com/science/index.ssf/2010/10/analysis_of_kent_state_audio_t.html
More recordings of the shooting:
http://www.kentstate1970.org//timeline/may4th1970/shooting
My father, an old National Guardsmen like myself made the comment why open fire? The M1s come with a bayonet, a bayonet charge would have been better in disbursing the crowd. My father and I were both trained to use the Bayonet in such situations i.e. with the SCABBARD still on the rifle and doing a stomping type march to move people.
Now, my father died before the audio report showing someone fired something 70 seconds before the guard opened fire. That is a minute and 10 seconds before the Guard opened fire. That is MUCH to long to respond to someone firing given it is clear, according to the tape, that the Soldiers were ORDERED to open fire (Remember the order sequence took only 17 seconds). Thus someone was firing 53 seconds before the guard open fire (This is consistent with reports that a person working for the FBI, but NOT an agent, was taking picture and was later found to have had on him a five shot 38 caliber revolver).
The Audio report indicate it is NOT the shots heard 70 second before the M1s open up had NOT been from the .45 auto fired by a National Guard Sergeant (Those all occurred during the firing of the M1s). The people doing the analysis, using KGB developed techniques to improve quality of recordings, show orders were given, but by who and why and what were fired before the M1s open fire was not determined by the people analyzing the tape.
One problem with the tape is the words "Guard" being used. In a firing sequence, it is load, aim and fire, you do NOT use the term Guard before such orders. The report sites another officer in the Company, but not the unit that opened fire, that he never heard of the use of the word "Guard" before giving an order, any order let alone one to open fire. It is just plan weird. The best explanation is someone in command of a squad had developed this "system" for his squad and used it. Given this was a combined unit, it may have been something the Tankers had adopted (the 45 caliber is consistent with Tankers weapons, Infantry units rarely carry the .45. If an infantry unit had a .45 it was held by the Captain of the Company and many company commanders opt for the rifle they men carried instead of the .45. The ,45 fired at Kent State was fired by a Sergeant who was a member of the cavalry/Tank unit. When I drove a M113A1 I was issued a .45 pistol, for my job was to drive the M113 NOT to fight. Every one else on my M113 carried an M16 (and this included the track Commander).
All that a Sergeant had a ,45 pistol shows, that you had tankers among the 77 men who were in the unit that opened fire.
As to the factual iring, on the tape it follows the above orders. Others when they heard the firing also opened fire. 67 to 69 rounds were fire. It was later determined that 29 soldiers had opened fire. Given that the M1 held an eight(8) round clip, most soldiers did NOT fire their entire clip of ammunition. The shooting took only 13 seconds, and that is more than enough time to shoot all 8 rounds in a M1 (M1s can do 30 rounds per minute, or one round every 2 seconds, but that includes reloading the weapon thus one round a second is possible if the shooter is NOT re-loading the weapon between 8 round clips).
I bring up Kent State for it shows NOT what to do. First unless extensive Gun Fire has occurred, do NOT issue rifles or ammunition. Second, keep men of the same unit together. Third, tell the National Guard, that they are there to contain the riot, thus just stand still and support the police. Fourth, do NOT do anything with the Guard that does NOT include using them as units. i.e. leave the Guard Surround an area or block a street. Use the Police to clear the Street. If it is decided to use the Guard to clear an area, make sure they work with the police and if any actual shooting occur, the police get to handle it. Fifth, if the Guard is used to clear an area, make sure they flanks are covered, i.e. move in the form of a company or battalion not an understrength company (Companies generally have 100 or more men) or reinforced platoon (Platoons have anywhere from 20-44 men, three platoons to a Company).
Sidenote: Prior to WWI, a Platoon was 20 men and they was five platoon to every Company (total 100 men, through at times you had only four platoons, thus 80 man companies). You had 10 to 12 Companies to a regiment (1000-1200 men). During WWI and WWII the number of men in each unit expanded. During WWII a infantry company had 180 men, a platoon had 44 men. A platoon consisted of three 12 man squads (total 36), the eight other men were the platoon commander, the platoon sergeant, radio operator, a machine gun team of two men and a Bazooka team of two men plus a jeep driver. Companies and Platoons have stayed close to those numbers every since, with some variation (mostly do to the need for smaller squads given the hauling capacity of the M113 and later the M2 Bradley Infantry Combat vehicle).
Thus the more I look into the details of Kent State all I see is one screw up after another. Officers should have been count martialed for incompetency.
Just a comment on what Wikipedia say about the affect of Kent State.
dixiegrrrrl
(60,010 posts)I really appreciate you taking the time to share all this info. 
4139
(1,893 posts)Why would u post most the guardsmen there???
4139
(1,893 posts)KeepItReal
(7,769 posts)Don't know of any mayhem in St. Louis proper before last night.
Wellstone ruled
(34,661 posts)Do we have a bunch of Politicians trying to create a plausible scenario? Is this a sinister slap at Mr. Obama and Holder? Do realize their are Politicians who would go out of their way to get their face on Faux Noise.
damnedifIknow
(3,183 posts)We know what happened we are out of here.
TexasMommaWithAHat
(3,212 posts)After such a strong militaristic presence when the protests first began, everyone was asking for the police to stand down. I don't think they know how to handle this.
olegramps
(8,200 posts)Why didn't they wait until say 10::AM the next morning instead of early in the nighttime. What was their intention? I will have to wait for a plausible reason before passing final judgment, but at this venture I believe that at best it was because of faulty reasoning and at worst it resulted in the intended consequences. The handling of this entire matter has been a disaster from the onset. It cannot be denied that law enforcement has attracted a unseemly number of outright psychotics to their ranks.
TexasMommaWithAHat
(3,212 posts)but I don't think those reasons were strong enough to delay.
They were waiting for businesses to close, employees to get home including commuters who pass through Ferguson, waiting for kids to be at home and not roaming around, time to get to the grocery store to stock up. Anyone out would be intentionally out and not as likely to get caught up accidentally in violence.
I think the powers that be should have stated the night before to prepare for a release of the decision at 9:00 a.m. the next morning.
NeoConsSuck
(2,544 posts)GeorgeGist
(25,311 posts)Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)the NG only objective was to make sure the unrest didn't spread past a certain geographic boundary...They could have given less that a shit about maintaining order and safety....
Baclava
(12,047 posts)if they sent in the National Guard last night there could have been shootings, and the riots thus spread across the nation
the local stuff was a sacrificial lamb, and they played up the slaughter
Munificence
(493 posts)step further and say:
As long as they were confined to and only looted and destroyed facilities in African-American communities and not white communities they chose to let it play out without intervention of the guard.
Just another example of the racism in our society and government.
Brigid
(17,621 posts)That was the excuse Bull Connor gave back in 1961 in Birmingham when asked why the police took 15 minutes to arrive at the Greyhound station when Klan members were there to "greet" the Freedom Riders. At least it really was Mother's Day. 
madokie
(51,076 posts)did you ever stop to think that maybe a pool of hundreds of jurist are right that this was a travesty of justice and that they want to see a reversal of this whitewash of a grand jury decision. That maybe just maybe, more likely as not, that officer Wilson is a cold blooded murderer
Naw you don't think that way do you mayor? You think that cops can kill people of color with impunity now don't you, you piece of shit mayor anyway. Fuck off
