Turkey Expresses Outrage at Reports of Routine Spying by Germany, a NATO Ally

[iandhr]

Last edited Tue Aug 19, 2014, 03:05 PM - Edit history (1)

Source: NY TIMES

BERLIN — After angrily insisting for months that “friends don’t spy,” the German government struggled Monday to respond to news media reports that its intelligence services routinely spy on Turkey, a NATO ally, and inadvertently captured at least one conversation each involving Hillary Rodham Clinton when she was secretary of state and her successor, John Kerry.

While officials in Berlin sought to play down the reports, Turkey summoned the German ambassador to demand an immediate investigation. “If there is even a bit of truth in these allegations, this is a grave situation that requires an explanation by Germany,” Turkey’s Foreign Ministry said in a statement.

In a tone of outrage heard repeatedly from politicians in Berlin over the past year when addressing widespread allegations of spying by the United States’ National Security Agency, the Turkish government demanded that German authorities “present an official and satisfactory explanation to the allegations,” adding that “if true, these practices should be terminated at once.”

Turkey remains on a list of countries targeted by Germany’s foreign intelligence service that was drawn up in 2009 and remains relevant today, the German magazine Der Spiegel reported on Monday, attributing the information to documents leaked to the Central Intelligence Agency. The magazine also reported that the German foreign intelligence service, known by its initials, BND, had captured individual conversations of Mrs. Clinton and Mr. Kerry while they were in the Middle East.

Read more: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/19/world/europe/turkey-outraged-at-reports-of-german-spying.html?ref=world&_r=0

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I think it is clear that everyone spies on everyone. Germany complained about spying and they clearly do the same thing.


Or to put it another way.

[Historic NY]

1. Its all the rage amongst, Frenemies.

The outrage when it was discovered the US was doing it...well hello guess what.

[Blue_Tires]

2. k+r

Don't worry...I didn't get any action when I posted this story, either...

Told DUers a year ago that everybody spies on everybody and nobody has clean hands, but they couldn't hear me above the sensationalized Greenwald/Snowden-fueled blind outrage...

[iandhr]

18. Never thought I would say it...

…. but a Mets fan is talking sense.

[gcomeau]

3. Oh shock of shocks...

"While officials in Berlin sought to play down the reports, Turkey summoned the German ambassador to demand an immediate investigation. “If there is even a bit of truth in these allegations, this is a grave situation that requires an explanation by Germany,” Turkey’s Foreign Ministry said in a statement. "

...while undoubtedly betting on Turkey's intelligence activities against Germany, which most certainly also exist, don't come to light. At least while he's still the one who would have to deal with it.


I wonder if all the "OMG the US spied on other countries!!!!" crowd are getting the picture yet?

[Tarheel_Dem]

4. "I wonder if all the "OMG the US spied on other countries!!!!" crowd are getting the picture yet?"

They already got it, but they'll never admit it.

[JDPriestly]

9. Friends ask friends questions. When you start spying on your so-called friends, you are no longer

friends or allies. The conclusion I draw from the spying going on within the NATO alliance is that the alliance is falling apart. When allies no longer trust each other. when they feel they have to spy and can no longer simply ask questions and get an honest answer, they are no longer allies. They are merely waiting for the opportunity to break the alliance. They are trying to find some sneaky thing the other party is doing so that they can justify breaking their alliance.

Allies don't spy on each other because they are allies. They rely on each other. That means they know they can rely on each other's word.

[Tarheel_Dem]

14. You think Russia doesn't spy on China, and vice-versa? China spies on everybody.

[newthinking]

16. Sounds a bit like "everyone else does it"?

I think the point is that the system of surveilance is out of control. Sure there is a "status quo" thing going on, but does that mean it is a good thing?

I am always unfortunately a little surprised at the people on this site that want to protect the status quo rather than use opportunities (like the extent on spying coming to light), to find ways to progress against such practices and move toward a better world.

[gcomeau]

17. It's exactly like "everyone else does it"

And whether it's a good thing or a bad thing is beside the point if you can't influence the decision of other nations to do it. Which you can't.

So the choice is do it also to maintain a level playing field... or don't and get outmaneuvered.


No responsible head of state is going to choose the latter option out of some general principle that "spying is bad".

I am always unfortunately a little surprised at the people on this site that want to protect the status quo rather than use opportunities (like the extent on spying coming to light), to find ways to progress against such practices and move toward a better world.

If you can describe any such opportunity that has ever been presented I'm all ears. How exactly do we tell Putin or the party leadership in China or any number of other state actors to just stop spying so we can too and make it stick in any meaningful way? What opportunity to do that do you think has *ever* been presented?

[Blue_Tires]

5. And just to hammer home my point once and for goddamned all...

Since DUers (who have clearly never worked in the industry) still gang up on me whenever I point out that Glenn Greenwald is closer to a media relations shill than an actual journalist:



Because Der Spiegel is a professional, well-respected organization with a long history of high journalistic standards, they are interested in reporting the WHOLE story without favoritism or prejudice (or at least to the best of their ability), and let their readership make up their own minds...Ergo, because they have no premade narratives or agendas to color their reporting, they have the freedom to go wherever the facts lead them, and report extensively on both the NSA "scandal" *AND* when the BND is caught snooping allies...

On the flipside of the coin, because Glenn Greenwald openly champions his bias (under the marketing buzzword of "adversarial journalism&quot against President Obama, U.S. foreign policy, Israel, etc., not only is he restricted to telling only the facts of the story which fit his tunnel-vision narrative; but when stories like this come out he has to remain silent lest more people wake up to the reality that he is arguably one of the most brazen, shameless and pathologically hypocritical writers of the modern era...



Are there any questions? I have tried to lay this out as simply and logically as I possibly could, and hope it finally brings some closure to the matter...

[JDPriestly]

7. Of what relevance is that?

If you are trying to suggest that since you don't consider Greenwald to be a journalist, he is not protected by the First Amendment's safeguard of the freedom of the press, please note that the Constitution does not limit the First Amendment protection to journalists, but rather guarantees the innate right of the PRESS to freedom.

Whether you consider Glenn Greenwald to be a journalist or not, he is protected by the Freedom of the Press as are we all when we publish information on the internet.

[Blue_Tires]

10. Because Greenwald hasn't said shit about it

and he's re-made himself as some global icon of investigative reporting in matters of intelligence agencies overstepping their boundaries...That's why it's relevant...

Because DU had a bunch of 200+ post outrage threads when it came out that Merkel's cellphone was being tapped (of course it came out later that Merkel was ignoring her advisors' suggestions to switch to a secure phone, and the U.S. was only ONE of at least SIX counties listening in, and Greenwald didn't say shit because it would fuck up his "USA is the great satan" -storyline)...That's why it's relevant...


I could go on, but you get the point -- All I'm asking for is some consistency...If XYZ is universally criticized for being immoral and illegal in one situation, the same amount of outrage needs to apply across the board...

[Tarheel_Dem]

15. May I applaud this?

"On the flipside of the coin, because Glenn Greenwald openly champions his bias (under the marketing buzzword of "adversarial journalism&quot against President Obama, U.S. foreign policy, Israel, etc., not only is he restricted to telling only the facts of the story which fit his tunnel-vision narrative; but when stories like this come out he has to remain silent lest more people wake up to the reality that he is arguably one of the most brazen, shameless and pathologically hypocritical writers of the modern era..."

[JDPriestly]

6. And I think that it is clear from this spying within the NATO alliance that the alliance is falling

apart. Friends don't spy on friends. That remains true regardless of who is spying on whom.

Friends ask friends questions. They don't need to spy on each other because they are honest and open with each other because they are genuinely on the same side.

You spy on others because you don't trust them.

All the whitewash in the world won't change the fact that something is very wrong in the NATO alliance when its members don't trust each other to the point that they have to spy on each other rather than simply speak honestly and openly about what they are doing.

[gcomeau]

8. Then it's been "falling" since it was formed.

This *has always happened*. How do people still not get that?

[JDPriestly]

11. How do you define spying?

If you listen in on the confidential electronic communications of others, you are breaching their privacy. You are not allies. You are not trusting the other party to tell you the truth or to answer your questions. If that has always been going on, then the NATO "alliance" is not really an alliance. During WWII, we trusted the British and to a lesser extent, the French. We worked together with them. We were allies.

That members of NATO are spying on each other is not a good sign no matter how long it has been going on. It means that members are not truthful with each other. Of at least that members think that certain other members are not truthful with them.

If the Germans are spying on Turkey it is because the Germans do not trust Turkey.

If we spy on Germany it is because we do not trust Germany.

[gcomeau]

12. Pretty much the same as everyone else does.

"If you listen in on the confidential electronic communications of others, you are breaching their privacy."

Yup.

And basically EVERY GOVERNMENT HAS ALWAYS DONE IT TO OTHER GOVERNMENTS.

Allies or not.

You can wring your hands about the trust issues that entails all year long, doesn't change the reality.

[Blue_Tires]

13. "Friends don't spy on friends..."

I love you JD, but that's kind of naïve since allies have spied on allies since the evolution of society, politics and war...

[Blue_Tires]

19. This deserves a kick

there are dozens of "usual suspects" out there who have yet to make an appearance in this thread...Yeah, they can certainly dish it out, but are AWOL when it comes time for them to eat a little themselves...