U.S.: Satellite Imagery Shows Russians Shelling Eastern Ukraine

[Purveyor]

Source: TIME

Sam Frizell @Sam_Frizell
11:39 AM ET

als released satellite images Sunday they say offer proof that Russian forces have been shelling eastern Ukraine in a campaign to assist rebel groups fighting Ukraine’s government in Kiev. Obama administration officials said as early as last week that the Russians were launching attacks in eastern Ukraine.

The U.S. Office of the Director of National Intelligence, which released the civilian-taken satellite images Sunday, said they show visual evidence that Russia has been firing shells across the border at Ukrainian military forces. Officials also said the images show that Russia-backed separatists have used heavy artillery, provided by Russia, in attacks on Ukrainian forces from inside Ukraine.

One image dated July 25/26 shows what DNI claims is “ground scarring” on the Russian side of the border from artillery aimed at Ukrainian military units in Ukraine, as well as the resultant ground craters on the Ukrainian side of the border:

?w=560

A slide from a day earlier is said to show self-propelled artillery on the Russian side of the border oriented toward Ukraine, with impact areas near Ukrainian military units:

Read more: http://time.com/3042640/satellite-russian-ukraine-shelling/

[cosmicone]

1. Vivid Memories.....

Any lie for policy advancement ... complete with pictures!

[Mika]

4. How Both Bushes Attacked Iraq - Fake Satellite Photos

How Both Bushes Attacked Iraq - Fake Satellite Photos

http://www.hermes-press.com/like_son.htm

[MattSh]

9. Fast Forward 11 years...

[yurbud]

39. Sadly, Netanyahoo did a real one as stupid to "prove" Iran almost has nukes:

I expected him to say this diagram proves Iran is an existential threat to moose and squirrel.

[Scootaloo]

51. They're still printing cartoons

That's their justification for this:


It's rather staggering, isn't it?

[yurbud]

60. that reminds me of the caves of Tora Bora that looked like something out of James Bond

but when our troops got there, they mostly found the shallow caves that you would expect in a mountainous area like that, not a terrorist Maginot Line.

[Scootaloo]

61. Wasn't that awesome?

Like they're the fucking X-men or something.

Hydroelectric power!

[Hugabear]

63. That photo was obviously fake

They forgot to add in the underground swimming pool and rec area.

[yurbud]

65. And the opening mountaintop that reveals the death ray

[candelista]

11. Also, "Babies thrown from incubators" in Kuwait.

[yurbud]

38. because when you are looting an oil rich country with jewelry, electronics, and gold laying around

the first thing a soldier thinks of stealing is...incubators.

What the hell would soldiers do with them anyway?

Use them as hot dog warmers?

[WatermelonRat]

18. Yes, because Bush lied about Iraq, every aerial/satellite photo ever is fake.

I can only imagine your response if, somewhere in the world, our satellites picked up something like this:
[img][/img]

[Hugabear]

64. Ok fine, I'll play your game

Let's use the photo you posted. How would anyone looking at that photo be able to gather all that information? Were there giant labels on top of each building, "Men's Camp", "Hungarian Camp", etc?

It's like nowadays when you see satellite photos of North Korean labor camps, with everything labeled. Not many people are going to deny that North Korean labor camps exist, but how can one tell so much detail and be able to identify everything they see just from a satellite photo?

[Adrahil]

20. Well....

1) Obama ain't Bush

2) Is there any evidence you would accept as proof, or will you reject all of it as fakes and lies?

[awoke_in_2003]

24. Yes, but the people interpreting the photos...

are the same people. I am not saying these are fake, in fact I would bet money they aren't, but just because we have a different president doesn't mean the entire apparatus is different. All this being said, if they indeed came from Russia there isn't a damn thing we can do about it.

[cstanleytech]

28. Oh there is plenty we could do in theory including sending in troops but

I dont believe obama would do that, someone like cruz though probably would which is why we need to keep nutjobs like him out of office.

[geek tragedy]

2. Of course they are.

Question is what does Putin do if/when Ukraine retakes Donetsk and sends Putin's gangsters scurrying back to Mother Russia.

[Igel]

6. Reports are that there's a mopping up operation for remnants of rebel forces in Shakhtars'k.

Ukr troops are claimed to be on the outskirts of Snizhne and to have entered Torez. Google maps "torez, donets'k oblast, ukraine" pulls up Torez, Snizhne is due east and Shakhtars'k is due west.

No confirmation from rebels, they are often a day late in reporting things. The best they're reporting that I've seen is "fighting on outskirts of Shakhtyorsk." From time to time the Ukr forces claim "mopping up" prematurely. The rebel press and some anti-war groups have managed to take the ambiguity of "zakhistka" or "zachistka" (depending if you're doing Ukrainian or Russian), which can also mean "cleansing" or "purge" to mean "levelling." So Donbass-SOS says there's a
"zachistka" and that means everybody should head immediately to the bomb shelters to escape the death that's going to be raining down from the sky--the city's going to be levelled.

There's also a report that Stozhkovo (also Donets'k oblast, Ukraine) has had Ukr tanks roll into it.

This matters for two reasons.

The last supply route from the east (or the south) to Donets'k (the town) would be cut if the fighting in Debal'tseve really does mean Ukr forces have control over it (the shelling of the town is by the rebels). And cut pretty much along the Luhans'k/Donets'k oblast border. This would relieve pressure along the southern flank as well, without subjecting Ukr troops to the Russian artillery/Grad fire that is reported to be suppressing troop activities there and making resupply very difficult. There have been desertions from this flank, some showing up in anti-war protests in the West and some moving across the border for various reasons into Russia (none of which are reported reliably, IMHO, since their motives are filtered through the rebel/Russian press and are good PR opportunities for them).

Moreover, the claim from the government spokesperson is that they intend to secure the MH17 crash scene. Their reasoning is this is necessary since the rebels continue to make life difficult for experts on the ground and there are reports of plane bits being moved and altered, bodies still there unclaimed, repeated reports of personal possessions being taken (from a girl who allegedly was using some of the make-up, to Strelkov's alleged ukase directing anything valuable be turned in to the Donetsk military support fund), and the usual plausible but probably hysterical claims of the scene being contaminated with planted missile parts and even Ukraine soldiers' bodies. Meanwhile the DPR spokesperson says that the scene has been secured the entire time and nothing has been moved or removed without explicit permission from "experts." You'd think that the turning over of the black boxes--removed from the scene without explicit permission from the experts--would trounce this bit of agitprop.

[Berlin Expat]

7. If the pro-Russian

forces in Ukraine attempt to scurry back to Russia, Putin will simply have them wiped out. They would be a menace to Russia, and I'm quite sure Putin is well aware of this.

Stone dead hath no fellow - a favorite saying of Stalin's; the closest English equivalent is one we're all familiar with.

Dead men tell no tales.

[geek tragedy]

8. the pro-Russian forces are actually just Russian forces

They'll put their Russian uniforms on, or go back to their jobs at the FSB, etc.

[lark]

3. Yep, Bush was right when he looked in Putin's eyes and saw a kindred soul.

Both are evil, arrogant, murderers, pandering to the right wing militants in their countries to enrich the MIC and oil barons.

[bemildred]

5. Stick with the evidence from twitter. nt

[MattSh]

53. Yep...

If this evidence is such a "slam-dunk," then why release it via social media early on a Sunday morning, east coast time?

Sounds like someone is just throwing out everything including the kitchen sink and seeing if anything sticks.

[bemildred]

55. Yeah, they must think we are all goobers.

We should just provide the military with a connection to Google Earth and skip all this intelligence collecting and spying.

[ColesCountyDem]

10. Some times it is what it is, folks.

To paraphrase Abraham Lincoln, Crimea was not taken with "...elder-stalk squirts, charged with rose water", and neither are the pro-Russian rebels prosecuting their secessionist attempts without Russian arms-- and possibly personnel.

[Adrahil]

21. Don't bother. To certain folks, no evidence will be good enough. Russia Good. USA BAD. NT

[ColesCountyDem]

30. Oh, I've noticed. LOL!

[Purveyor]

31. Bad Russia and Bad USA in my book. Look at the clusterfuck 'we' created in

the middle east. Actually, we are much worse than Russia as of the last 10-11 years when it comes to stirring up shit on foreign soil.

[jakeXT]

33. Maybe Dempsey needs a refresher

You’ve got a Russian government that has made a conscious decision to use its military force inside another sovereign nation to achieve its objectives. It’s the first time since 1939 or so that that’s been the case,” Dempsey said. “They clearly are on a path to assert themselves differently not just in Eastern Europe, but Europe in the main, and towards the United States.”

http://www.commondreams.org/news/2014/07/25/gen-dempsey-were-pulling-out-our-cold-war-military-plans-over-ukraine

[MattSh]

52. Reminds me of this...

“It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.”

― Upton Sinclair

[bemildred]

56. Henry Miller:

For the man in the paddock, whose duty it is to sweep up manure, the supreme terror is the possibility of a world without horses.
-- Henry Miller in Tropic of Cancer"

[Adrahil]

58. Hey I won;t deny that U.S. International meddling has screwed up a LOT.

But that doesn't change the fact that Vladimir Putin is attempting to construct a Russian-centered empire again. And he's lying to the world about Russian involvement in Ukraine. Whatever "bad" the U.S. has done there doesn't change any of that.

[bemildred]

59. Putin's fuckups are Russian's problem, our government's fuckups are ours.

"It's your shit, you clean it up."

[Roy Serohz]

12. Ah, the fond memories

[KoKo]

13. Have to say I agree with the skeptics who posted reminders

on this thread. As George Bush infamously said: "Fool Me Once...ummm.. fool..me.. well won't get fooled again..." I probably messed up that quote but he messed it up so bad that it makes sense in the short version.

Anyway to those who are skeptics until more verification is available.

[jakeXT]

14. Why are they so scared of releasing NRO/NGA images, both Russia/China were forced to for MH370/MH17?

[cosmicone]

15. because no images exist that show any Russian involvement

People are being sold another war.

[jakeXT]

16. The chocolate oligarch just needs a couple of US troops for his border

Ukraine leader calls for ‘larger' US response

Poroshenko also asked for U.S. military advisors to deploy quickly to Ukraine to safeguard the borders and “unwind the insurgency with minimal violence.”

Washington could also help build up the Ukranian financial, energy and agricultural sectors, he wrote, as well as clamp down on corruption.

Read more: http://thehill.com/policy/international/213421-ukrainian-president-calls-for-larger-response-from-west

[cosmicone]

17. Ukraine will be a much bigger hell than Vietnam or Iraq

We just don't learn from our (colossal) mistakes.

[Adrahil]

22. No one sane is suggesting U.S. troops.

I think U.S. Stategy is to embarrass Putin into backing off, and forcing our rather timid European allies to grow a backbone.

[cosmicone]

23. so it is okay to lie and release fake stories?

Like we embarrassed Saddam Hussein with babies thrown from incubators and made him back off?

[cstanleytech]

29. How about we focus on the story under discussion?

Now do you have anything that proves that this specific story is a fake or not?

[cosmicone]

34. People aren't buying it. See post #26 n/t

[NickB79]

19. I think you might be in need of a Q-tip

It seems as though something's stuck in your ears:

[cosmicone]

27. I think you may be in need of a seeing guide...

[NickB79]

48. Clearly, the Russians were just making campfires

Why, if you zoom in, you can even see them roasting marshmallows and telling ghost stories!

[ReRe]

49. You forgot their vodkay

[awoke_in_2003]

25. You may be right or wrong...

either way, there is nothing we can do about it. The warpigs aren't going to get into it with someone that can punch back hard.

[JackRiddler]

26. This "Russian shelling" story is bullshit on its own terms.

I don't need to question the source or authenticity of the image itself, or use past examples of deception as though these necessitate deception in this case. (Although certainly, with the exception of the reason for entering World War II, there has never been any matter of war and peace, under Democrats or Republicans, on which the U.S. government has not lied systematically to the American people.)

Here's all I need to do:

They're the DNI! Why are they presenting images obtained from a civilian source?!

What's with the interpretative past tense? We are told the images show that there had been fire, due to "ground scarring" on the Russian side. All that ground scarring proves is that the Russians have a lot of heavy military gear that they move around, including near the Ukrainian border during a confrontation with the West over the Ukraine. In their routine maneuvers and excercises, one would expect them to track units on the Ukrainian side and target these, but not to shoot. (Something that all forces would do!)

And what do impacts on the Ukrainian side show, without proof of where the fire comes from? That there's a war happening there? Really?

If the Russians really are shelling into Ukraine from over the border, DNI/NRO could easily train military satellites on these areas 24/7 and get definitive proof of the firing. That DNI presents such weak and circumstantial evidence speaks volumes.

This is not serious. It is also not pitched at an international audience (sort of like the U.S. weekly version of the old Soviet encyclopedia, TIME). People outside the U.S. and outside the reflexively pro-Kiev bubble are not going to take it seriously. It is 100% for true believers and suckers among the American people, to shore up support for the new cold war with Russia.

This is also why it's being presented by the PR front for all intel agencies, the DNI, rather than a real agency like CIA/State Department. If it were Kerry talking this, it would be a very bad sign about what's coming next. DNI, whatevs.

[joshcryer]

35. Huh? The "ground scaring" proves direction and usage.

What other reasonable explanation is there? That Russia was shooting blanks and it just so happened there were craters in the same direction of the fire?

Why would the US release higher quality imagery when the civilian photos are good enough to show what's going on?

Please, explain to me how higher resolution photos would change the evidence. All it would do is make it more compelling, which of course the US does not want to do because the US doesn't want actual intervention here. If the US was serious they'd 1) release super high resolution photos of Russian troop movements and 2) put 100% sanctions on Russia for invading another country. Instead the US is playing the PR game with Russia and just prodding and saying "we know what's up." That's it. The blood of Ukrainians is immaterial when EU needs Russian gas.

[JackRiddler]

40. Movements are not shelling, as you should know.

The photos - from a civilian source, why? - are not proof of shelling by the Russians into Ukraine. As any proper reading of the DNI statement shows.

The photos are mere "proof" of movements on the Russian side, which is a trivial and routine thing that is interpreted (without proof) as evidence that shells were fired, although this is not said definitively, not has the DNI provided the proof (which they could do, if it really happened).

Shells did explode on the Ukrainian side, but again, without proof these were fired from the Russian side. Of course, both sides inside Ukraine are firing shells daily.

Thus your question of whether "Russia was shooting blanks" seems disingenuous. Once again, no proof is provided that Russian forces shot anything over the border. This DNI presentation is a puppet show for true believers (such as you seem to be) and low-information patsies (as the American people are taken to be). If it had the least substance, or if they were planning to turn it into a pretext for escalation, it would have come from a real agency like your apparent favorite, the CIA-State hybrid.

[joshcryer]

45. What reasonable "movements" make ground scars like that?

[NickB79]

47. Do tank movements leave scorch marks on the ground?

Visible from space?

[Duckhunter935]

54. how do you explain the ground scarring

this is from backblast of the rockets and the launchers are pointed at Ukraine. Amazing that in Ukraine there are impact crators on that same line those launchers are pointing.

I am sure the Russians were just practicing on their own border posts

[EX500rider]

46. The ground scarring is back blast from rocket launches.

[TwilightGardener]

32. And yet, everyone believes Russia's claim that Ukraine shelled over Russia's

border and allegedly killed someone? Why is THAT believable, but this is not? Russophiles?

[bemildred]

57. No, we don't believe them either. They lie too. nt

[joshcryer]

36. Reconstruction of this event and MH17 trajectory:

It's plain as day, people. Yes, social media is good. And Russia trying to discredit social media is a joke.

[ensemble]

42. disagree....

Social media can be spoofed. Using it as military intelligence is a joke.

[joshcryer]

43. You have to wade through the cruft.

But the geolocation abilities of social media are unparalleled.

[yurbud]

37. even if true, therefore what? If US thought a foreign power was installing a hostile gov't in Mexico

we would do a lot worse than that to our cousins south of the border.

[joshcryer]

41. Nothing. It's just a PR game.

But it's important to know how much Russia is helping the separatists. Just as it was important to know how much the US was helping Syrian rebels.

[yurbud]

44. that's true

[TT_Progress]

50. The same day Ukraine shot more than 40 shells at a Russian village

http://en.itar-tass.com/world/742358


Who shot first? I know there were several people killed by Ukraine shells in a Russian village a week or two ago? Russia said it would retaliate.

The primary mistake in this case, if indeed this image is accurate, Russia should just state that they will return fire when Ukraine shells Russian villages. But then again, in a media environment where everything reported on non mass media is rejected that may also be turned around on them.

What is really important about events in the last few years is that we are entering the age of information wars that cloud and make resolution much more difficult.

[yurbud]

66. Like the run up to the Iraq War...

I wondered why no one in Congress asked some very obvious questions, but after a fair amount of digging, I found out several of them DID, but apart from the Congressional record, it was damn hard to find.

[Hugabear]

62. It's amazing how much one can tell from satellite photos

Unless they have higher resolution photos they're not showing anyone, I really don't see how anyone could really get all that information just by looking at these photos.