Israel-Gaza conflict: Israeli military ‘using flechette rounds in Gaza Strip’

[Rapillion]

Source: Independent (UK)

The Israeli military is reportedly using flechette shells in its offensive in Gaza, weapons described as illegal under “rules of humanitarian law” by an Israeli human rights organisation.

Generally fired by a tank and described as an “imprecise weapon” ill-suited to combat in a built-up area, flechette shells explode in the air above a target, sending out a cone of thousands of tiny steel darts each no more than 4cm (1.57 ins) long.

According to the Palestinian Centre for Human Rights (PCHR), six such shells were fired towards the village of Khuzaa in the Gaza Strip on 17 July, the Guardian reported.

The PCHR was described as saying that a woman, 37-year-old Nahla Khalil Najjar, suffered injuries to her chest in the flechette shelling, and pictures purporting to show the ammunition were passed on by a PCHR fieldworker.

When approached by the newspaper, the Israeli military did not deny using the shells in the conflict, saying that it only deploys weapons “determined lawful under international law”.

Read more: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israelgaza-conflict-israeli-military-using-flechette-rounds-in-gaza-strip-9617480.html

[mbperrin]

1. They're using white phosphorous, so why would they be bothered by flechette rounds?

I hate it, and even more when I realize how many US tax dollars bought all that shit.

[BillZBubb]

2. It is a war crime to use such weapons in a civilian area.

Hopefully, those responsible will be brought to justice. (But I won't hold my breath!)

[alcibiades_mystery]

3. Wise not to hold your breath

Plenty of people have been hanged for less, to be sure.

[AtheistCrusader]

4. This is not illegal.

The US and Israel and probably Russia too, maintain these weapons in inventory.

The only thing about it that might be illegal is if it can be proven they are knowingly fired at civilians, but the illegal part would be the act of doing so, not the weapon type, whether flechette, HE, WP, or what have you.

There is no explicit prohibition on flechettes in any humanitarian law Israel is a treaty party to.


That said, this sucks, it's like swinging an axe at one person in a crowded room. Highly likely to injure, maim, or kill a bystander.

[BillZBubb]

7. It is against International Law to use such weapons when the possibility of

civilian casualties is high. It is a war crime.

[Recursion]

8. The point is the legal status of flechettes isn't different from other weapons

Firing any weapon with disregard for non-combatant safety is a war crime. The flechettes don't change anything. Same thing with WP, DU, or whatever the weapon people are fixating on on a given day is.

[AtheistCrusader]

32. +1 That's the distinction.

It's the act, not the weapon, in this case. (Some other weapons are, indeed, against treaty and convention, but not this one.)

[cheapdate]

9. Agree. Flechette rounds are common inventory for combat soldiers.

Same for white phosphorus and other incendiaries. The crime would be targeting civilians, or in broader perspective, the whole of Israeli actions in provoking the Palestinians can be seen as a crime.

The latest round of violence began when Israel launched “Operation Brother’s Keeper” on June 14. Hundreds or more IDF troops entered the West Bank to search for some missing teenagers that they probably knew were already dead, and whose kidnapping and murder were not carried out by Hamas. Thousands of buildings (churches, schools, offices, homes) were raided, hundreds arrested, homes demolished, buildings damaged, millions of dollars worth of property confiscated, civilians killed included children. The first of the Hamas missiles came on July 1—a full 17 days into the Israeli campaign.

[cpwm17]

13. No, you're wrong

History only starts from the last rocket attack from any Palestinian.

Israel reminds me of my brother. When I was a kid I was walking with a friend through some fields near our house. My brother and his friend start bombarding us with rocks without provocation. Finally I threw just one rock in return. My aim happened to be much better than his aim and I nailed his shin. He was pissed. He was genuinely angry. He claimed that he had stopped throwing the rocks: bull.

History for him started when I threw that rock. Not surprisingly he's a right-wing authoritarian now.

[7962]

16. What?? Rockets have been fired at Israel for YEARS from Gaza.

Just more at some times than others.
And Israel told everyone to get out of that part of Gaza a week ago. So knowing the attack was coming, why would civilians STAY there?

[cheapdate]

20. You've lost me.

I wasn't talking about rockets fired years ago. I was talking about the immediate chronology of the present situation.

Regarding your question about why the tens of thousands of people and families living in areas under Israeli military fire have "stayed" there, I can only say that your question implies that actual, realistic alternatives exist, which they don't.

Gaza comprises 139 square miles of land with a population of roughly 1.8 million people. The strip is about 24 miles long and 4 miles wide. It's surrounded by double-wire fence with watchtowers on one side, and a naval blockade on the other side. Israeli rockets, artillery, mortars, tanks, naval fire, air-strikes, etc. have struck hundreds of places in Gaza.

Even if it was realistic to imagine the entire population of a densely populated urban area to pack up and leave, where exactly would tens of thousands of Gaza families evacuate to? The beach where four young children were killed last week while playing soccer?

[7962]

21. Before July, nearly 200 rockets and mortars have been fired. Thats consistent shelling all year.

And its happened EVERY year. A for the people leaving, Israel didnt say leave all of Gaza, just that area. No different than when a hurricanes coming. I'm sorry, but if I KNEW bombs were about to rain down on my city, I'd go to ANOTHER city. Of course they have alternatives, they can go to the other end of Gaza for that matter. Go to Egypt.

[cheapdate]

23. The border with Egypt is closed.

I don't think that you understand the physical geography or the nature of the political borders around Gaza. There is no place to go. There is no realistic option for the families in Gaza to go anywhere else in any meaningful numbers. As I said earlier, Gaza occupies 139 square miles. That's less than one-half the area inside the city-limits of Memphis, Tennessee. It's slightly larger than the city-limits of Cincinnati, Ohio -- with a population roughly six-times greater.

There is no leaving Gaza by land, sea, or air. It's surrounded by a double-wire fence with watchtowers on the Israel side, the small border with Egypt is closed, and any exit by sea is guarded by an Israeli naval blockade.

Israeli weapons hit targets anywhere and everywhere inside the 20-mile Gaza strip.

[7962]

25. I know the border is closed; I actually wanted to make that point

Why has the border been closed? Why wouldnt Egypt help their fellow Arabs? They should allow them to seek refuge. But they ae tiring of Hamas, as are other Arab countries. We see bigger protests in Paris (no surprise) than in the Arab world. They're getting fed up with the whole palestinian problem. When Hamas loses support from the other Arabs, if they dont seek peace it will be over for them.
So stop firing the damn rockets.

[cheapdate]

29. What kind of argument is that?

The Egyptian military's decision to close the border says that they want no part of the dispute.

"Why wouldnt Egypt help their fellow Arabs?" Huh? Egypt is not Palestine. It's a different country with a different culture, history, and politics. You might be surprised to learn that the Arabic speaking world is made up of different people, cultures, and nations, each with their own history and outlook.

That's about as meaningful as asking "Why did Canada withdraw it's support for the war in Iraq?" or "Why wouldn't Macedonia help their fellow Christians from Serbia?" They have their reasons. If you support their reasons, great. If not, so be it. Egypt is not the final arbiter of right and wrong.

You and I aren't going to solve this, so I bid you good night.

[7962]

31. You're right. None of them care a whit about the palestinians.

But things would change if THEY changed. But when you elect terrorists to run your country, you reap what you sow.

[Recursion]

38. It worked for Sinn Fein and the ANC

This notion that "terrorism never works" has been given the lie several times in the past several decades, actually...

[7962]

40. Neither of those examples are the same as whats going on here.

As a matter of fact, Sinn Fein realized that military action was actually hurting their goals and began to try political solutions. Many disagreed with that strategy, but it ended up working. I dont recall SF calling for the total destruction of England; nor the ANC with their respective struggle.
The problem with the palestinians is that they have hitched their horse to Hamas, and even the Arab world is getting tired of them. Israel will not give in to them; they have no need to. The palestinians have two choices; they can renounce Hamas, accept Israel and stop attacking them, or they can keep trying to get sympathy from everyone else and continue living a destitute life while they try to prove their "point".
Terrorism only works when you dont stand up to it.

[Recursion]

46. Nope. The Palestinians rejected violence in the '90s and got fuck-all for it.

Nice try, but the Palestinians have fallen for that one before, and I doubt they will again. The PLO renounced violence, recognized Israel's right to exist, and in return saw the settlement process accelerate. Unfortunately Israel has managed to convince the Palestinians that the only language Israel understands is force.

[7962]

48. And unfortunately for them, the Arab countries are tired of them.

As evidenced by the tiny number of protests in any of their countries. There is more protesting going on in Paris than in Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Jordan, etc. Why? Because they're tired of hitching their wagon to a losing cause. Egypt made peace with Israel and got back the Sinai. The palestinians get in bed with Hamas and they get the shaft. And now Hamas is refusing to let people leave the attack area because they WANT civilian casualties.

[Recursion]

51. Why should "the Arab countries" care?

Seriously, I'm tired of that. Talking about "Arabs" is like talking about "Jews".

[7962]

53. Palestinians are Arabs. So why SHOULDNT they care?

[appal_jack]

52. I recall the PLO rejecting the Clinton Peace Plan.

Last edited Tue Jul 22, 2014, 05:10 PM - Edit history (1)

I recall the PLO rejecting the Clinton Peace Plan.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_Camp_David_Summit

100% of Gaza and 92% of the West Bank, plus sacred sites such as the Al Aqsa Mosque were on the table; all the Palestinians had to do was say yes and do their part to work for peace. Israel also offered monetary compensation in lieu of a right of return to lands within Israel. Instead, Arafat and the PLO held out for more.

If I were an Israeli negotiator, I would never offer this much again. The Palestinians had their chance. History has moved on since then. Settlements have been built. The wall is up. Them's the breaks.

-app

[7962]

54. I've already been told that deal was a crock of crap. Revisionist history. Israel bad.

I could find the reply to my post somewhere, but thats pretty much the gist of it.
Just like now, Israel has offered 3 different cease fire deals. Hamas has turned all of them down.

[Orrex]

5. You can see how Israel is the real victim in all of this.

[Sienna86]

6. Just watched news from Al Jazeera

Horrific. Children, babies, kids, old folks...civilians. Fuck Israel.

[stuarttman63]

10. Mowing the Grass

About a week ago, I saw a news program in which one of the commentators was discussing the endless cycle of violence in Israel/Palestine. He mentioned the two previous wars in the last four years and a new term I hadn't heard before: mowing the grass. Apparently, the right-wing Likud bloc believes that every couple of years it's necessary to have a short, bloody(at least for the Palestinians) war in Gaza or the West Bank to cull out the number of "terrorists". In reality, it seems to be a far more apt term for the indiscriminate bloodletting that is going on in Gaza right now. When you mow your lawn, you are not differentiating between weeds, crabgrass and ordinary grass; you're mowing it all down indiscriminately and that is certainly what Israel is doing in Gaza right now. They're making no distinction between members of HAMAS and the rest of the population. They're bombing and shelling indiscriminately, just as so many other occupiers have done to people they claim to control.

[KoKo]

27. Recommend....

[Major Hogwash]

47. 500 so far.

Most of them are probably neither terrorists or members of Hamas.

[Comrade Grumpy]

11. Rogue state. Governed by war criminals.

[7962]

17. You're right. The Palestinians should toss out Hamas.

[7962]

39. So just sit by and allow hundreds of missiles to be fired into your country day after day;

and do nothing about it.
Its already come to us, and it likely will again.

[RobertEarl]

42. Those are just fireworks

The iron dome is doing its job.

People are setting up lawn chairs in Israel to watch Gaza go up in flames.

They are not being hurt by the imaginary missiles.

it is all a sad joke Israel is playing on the world and they have so many just loving war, it makes me sick. I no longer support Israel. I can't, I have to much morality to support their war on innocents.

[LTX]

44. "Imaginary missiles."

Since January 2012, more than 2,530 rockets and mortars fired from Gaza have hit Israeli civilian areas.

[7962]

45. Watch the videos showing people running for shelters when the sirens go off

Not everyone thinks no missiles will hit them. Like I said, I guess Israel shouldnt respond because they have a missile defense system that, so far, works pretty well. More dead Israelis would make some here happy, it seems?
What a crock.
They drop leaflets, send text messages, phone calls, etc, TELLING the people where they are going to strike. And they CHOOSE not to leave because they know their deaths will serve Hamas.
The majority of the Arab world is aligning against Iran and by extension, Hamas. Soon, Israel will be working WITH several of these countries. And who will be left out in the cold?? The palestinians are going down the tubes because of their own ignorance.

[countryjake]

14. Vicious shrapnel

https://twitter.com/Mogaza/status/489741100957978624/photo/1

Since Omer first posted this photo last week, now, every time I see the sad pictures of the many wounded and slain Palestinians, I note the tiny holes on their bodies and wonder...flechettes.

[NealK]

15. This whole thing is making me sick.

[mwrguy]

18. War Crime of the Day, brought to you by Israel

They will never stop.

[SnakeEyes]

19. They will when Hamas stops firing rockets at them

[7962]

22. Funny how simple that works, aint it?

[chwaliszewski]

24. Israel will stop...

when all of Gaza does as it is told. How dare they protest, in their own violent way, their ghetto-esque treatment by Israel. [s/]

[7962]

26. Each time Israel relaxes restrictions, they regret it. Its time for Palestinians to accept Israel.

They vote in Hamas; hows that working for them? Not so good. throw them out, tell Israel no more rocket fire and things will improve. Otherwise, more of the same and Israel can do this all century long if they need to.

[AtheistCrusader]

33. And the settlements and the bulldozing? And the import restrictions on 'dual purpose' items, like

concrete?

[7962]

41. They could've had a country years ago. They choose not to.

[AtheistCrusader]

43. Yes, a tiny shadow of a country.

[SnakeEyes]

49. what?

elaborate

[AtheistCrusader]

50. The ever-shrinking borders of what could be palestine.

I don't believe for a minute Israel would pull back to pre-67 borders, for instance. Not a chance. They've been working too hard to annex much more than that, there's no going back.

All the deals I've seen offered are either hopelessly non-serious, or shittier and shittier over time.

I am not 100% invested in the accuracy of this graph, but it looks pretty close to me.

[7962]

55. You are right to be a bit skeptical. Look at this one.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel#mediaviewer/File:Kingdom_of_Israel_1020_map.svg
This map is more historical.
Your map states "Palestinian & Jewish land" but the map says "Palestine". There was no state of Palestine at that time.
Also notice that the map you posted doesnt show Jordan at all. If there is talk of Israel giving up land for a new state, then Jordan should also have to give up land. They were formed at the same time, so why not? It also makes no mention that Jordan seized the West Bank after the partition. Israel then took the West Bank from Jordan in the war, and gave it back to the palestinians later.

[Baconeater]

56. Map is nonsense

It assumes that land not owned by Jews is Palestinian land by default. Problem is that at the time of the partition, Jews owned 8% of the land, Arabs 4%, Absentee Arab owners another 17-18%. Most of the land was state land, and Arabs were not in control (at the time the Brits were, before that the Turks). Israel was not sovereign until 1948.

This map is better reflective of the situation
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=720807857931037&set=a.720806884597801.1073741831.602703939741430&type=3&l=4bf2915cad&theater

[SnakeEyes]

28. The anti-israel propaganda continues

There are nice areas and bad areas of gaza like any other place.

But again, this was started because Hamas started firing rockets indiscriminately into Israel. It will end when they stop.

[quadrature]

30. Hague Convention does not prohibit flechettes ...

as far as I know.

[NickB79]

34. Flechette shotgun shells were common munitions in Vietnam by US troops

They cut through foliage more efficiently than buckshot, apparently.

[Roy Serohz]

37. Bibi don't Care

It's really that simple.