IAF Pilot calls off strike on Gaza target after spotting children nearby
Source: ynetnews
The IDF Spokesperson's Unit often releases videos documenting aerial strikes carried out by the Israeli Air Force that culminate in a powerful blast, but a recent video distributed by the army shows a different resolution: an IAF pilot that was sent on Thursday to attack a terrorist target in the Gaza Strip called off the operation after spotting children approaching the target. There are people close to our target, the pilot is heard saying on the radio. It looks like there are people, possibly children, in our targeted area.
A military official is then heard responding: We are not going to strike this target now, lets move on. A similar incident was reported by foreign media outlets a week earlier, when the IDF called off an attack after citizens climbed onto the roof of a targeted apartment, acting as human shields.
(snip)
At the same time, the IDF is taking extensive steps to reduce civilian casualties, including the "Knock on the roof procedure, in which forces fire a small mortar at the target to indicate the imminent attack, and distribute leaflets (dropped from planes) regarding the attack. On Saturday, the army warned Palestinian residents of the northern Gaza Strip to evacuate the area at noon Sunday ahead of planned military operations in the area, and according to a spokesperson for UNRWA in Gaza, some 4,000 Palestinians had evacuated their homes and headed for UN facilities and shelters in the Gaza Strip.
However, Hamas, that seeks to continue to use civilians as human shields, called on residents of the northern Strip to "immediately return" to their home. "You must follow the directives of the Interior Ministry. This is psychological warfare, random messages to instill panic in people," the ministry statement said.
Read more: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4542857,00.html
1monster
(11,012 posts)After a blast like that "knock on the roof" action, I don't see anyone being capable of leaving the premises. The blast most likely "knocked" (stunned) them out for the one-minute count.
Orrex
(63,084 posts)A vastly superior military power with a famously effective missile shield simply has no moral credibility to persist in a bombing campaign when civilians are known to be in harm's way.
Still, props to the pilot who opted not to kill children.
IronGate
(2,186 posts)quits firing rockets into Israel.
Orrex
(63,084 posts)Great recipe for peace.
How many Israelis have died from Hamas rocket fire? 64, as of Nov 2012
How many Palestians have died from Israeli attacks? At least 162 in the past 6 days. Hmm...
It seems like the actual answer is that the grotesquely overwhelming military force should exercise restraint.
another_liberal
(8,821 posts)Exactly.
COLGATE4
(14,732 posts)you believe israel should "exercise restraint" against rockets fired into Israel from Palestinian territory? Ten years? Twenty? Thirty? Forever?
Orrex
(63,084 posts)They should exercise restraint for as long as they are the overwhelming military power, or at least until they vow to stop bombing the shit out of Palestinian civilians while blaming Hamas for using them as human shields.
If they can't execute a military campaign without killing hundreds of civilians, perhaps they should hold off on executing a military campaign.
PCIntern
(25,342 posts)and that says something. These Hamas COWARDS hide behind women and children and shoot rockets at Israelis and you are defending them. Aren't you a stand-up individual?
Frigging COWARDS.
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)Orrex
(63,084 posts)Orrex
(63,084 posts)You make it sound like Israel has no choice but to bomb them, that Israel is the victim every time it kills an innocent Palestinian civilian.
No one is forcing Israel to drop those bombs or build those settlements.
It's curious that the militarily weaker power has suffered far greater civilian deaths. At what point do we stop blaming the victim and instead require Israel to account for these deaths?
melm00se
(4,973 posts)no one is forcing Hamas to fire missiles into Israel.
Orrex
(63,084 posts)Israel is disrupting commerce and restricting access to water, medicine and building supplies, placing Palestinians in an increasingly desperate situation unlike anything that Israel is facing.
This, coupled with the fact that Israel has a vastly stronger arsenal and the full backing of the world's most powerful military, eliminates any talk of equivalency between the two sides in this conflict.
Israel has a great many options that don't involve killing civilians. Palestinians have far fewer choices.
melm00se
(4,973 posts)the violent one is acceptable?
it takes two to tango.
Orrex
(63,084 posts)COLGATE4
(14,732 posts)of any country that they should passively accept daily rocket attacks because they are more dominant militarily. As far as that goes, why did we make such a fuss about going into Afghanistan just because a handful of idiots hijacked a couple of planes and dropped a couple of buildings in New York? We clearly should have exercised restraint, or at a minimum have vowed to stop bombing the shit out of Afghanistan while blaming Al Qaeda.
Orrex
(63,084 posts)You know, the way Israel is doing in Gaza and then blaming Hamas?
You won't convince anyone of anything by appealing to the dubious righteousness of the Afghan war. It's nonsensical even to bring it up here.
In your view it's unreasonable to expect Israeli citizens to act with restraint while Hamas continues its blind-fired peashooter attacks from across the border, but somehow Palestinians are expected to rise up and seize control from Hamas while Israel plots a massive land invasion.
Why is Israel not held to the same standard as Palestinians?
COLGATE4
(14,732 posts)without responding. Attempting to cutely minimize the lethal intent of the Palestinians doesn't change the fact that their intent is to indiscriminately kill as many Israelis - men, women and children as possible using whatever armaments they have at their disposal. As they acquire more Iranian missles the death toll in Israel will continue to rise. Hardly a justification to say that one side should exercise 'restraint' because the other doesn't have accurate weaponry in large amounts - yet.
Orrex
(63,084 posts)Israel's attacks proceed apace, killing scores of civilians, yet you expect Hamas to exercise restraint when Israel can't? Are you reading what you're writing? What can possibly justify this double standard?
Whatever rationalization you favor, Israel is executing a grossly disproportionate military response against civilians when its conflict is nominally with Hamas. Why do you accept this form of collective punishment by Israel while you condemn Hamas' much less widespread, much less effective, and much less lethal campaign?
COLGATE4
(14,732 posts)"Intent" does not need to be specifically stated in order to be proved. It can be inferred from the actions of a person or persons. The actions of militant Palestinians over the years beginning with the charming suicide bombers attacking all sorts of clearly civilian targets - buses, shopping malls, restaurants, etc. clearly demonstrate that intent. Using rockets of doubtful accuracy with the potential for killing whatever is nearby when they land is another clear indication of that intent. There is no reliable evidence that rockets launched from Palestinian controlled areas are targeted only at Israeli military objectives. They just let the damned things fly in the general direction of wherever any group of Israels may be found while yelling "Death to the Yahood" and hope that it explodes and kills a whole bunch of them.
Orrex
(63,084 posts)You are creating an imaginary, extremist goal and assigning it to Hamas, and then you're condemning Hamas for the goal that you imagined. And then you accuse me of playing games? Puh-leeze!
Israel, in stark contrast, is deliberately and repeatedly attacking civilian targets, but somehow you're fine with this. Why?
I will ask you plainly: what violent action by Israel would you deem to be too severe to justify?
COLGATE4
(14,732 posts)to crush Hamas once and for all it would be too much. Unfortunately.
Orrex
(63,084 posts)I asked for an example of what you would consider an unacceptably extreme action by Israel, and you identified the complete destruction of a neighboring government.
Does Israel have carte blanche up to that point, or do you see some limit to the number of civilians they can kill, or the number of encroaching settlements they can build, or the volume of food, water, medicine and commerce they can deny Palestinians?
COLGATE4
(14,732 posts)doing right now I'm fine with it.
Orrex
(63,084 posts)Israel has killed close to 200 Palestinians in the past week, many of them civilians, and this is fine with you?
COLGATE4
(14,732 posts)chooses. Until it does so, the blood is on its hands. I personally think the Israelis have shown commendable restraint.
Orrex
(63,084 posts)Killing 200 people in a week--mostly civilians--is hardly a demonstration of restraint. The fact that you paint it as such is horrifying.
Why do you blame Hamas for the deaths of Palestinians? What act did Hamas commit that left Israel no other possible option than to kill 200 Palestinians so far?
How many Palestinian civilians killed by Israel would qualify as a lack of restraint, in your view?
COLGATE4
(14,732 posts)'restraint' with a straight face is to keep advancing the now old and tired argument that the party whose armament is technologically inferior is demonstrating 'restraint' because they are unable to kill as many of the people they are attacking as they would like. Restraint is Israel with all the sophisticated weaponry it has has only killed a small number of Palestinians and only in response to unprovoked attacks. If Israel wished to it could certainly kill a whole not more without half trying and, in doing so might even be able to rid the Palestinians from the monstrous creature called Hamas. That is what's called restraint -vnot shouting "Praise me for showing restraint because my weaponry doesn't work as well as it should".
Orrex
(63,084 posts)Your assertion of them as such is an attempt to catapult the propaganda.
Also, I haven't asserted that Hamas has acted with restraint, so I don't have to defend that claim. Instead, I have observed that the burden of restraint is on the (vastly) stronger military power. What you identify as "Israeli restraint," I recognize as the casual murder of hundreds of civilians.
Why do you go to such lengths to whitewash, propagandize and excuse those civilian deaths, when you are so quick to condemn the much smaller number of deaths caused by Hamas?
Why does Israel get a free pass, and when does that free pass expire?
COLGATE4
(14,732 posts)stipulates that "the burden of restraint is on the stronger military power". A curious concept, to be sure. One that fits your personal ideology but not something that most would agree with.
Orrex
(63,084 posts)I find that vile and obscene, and I can't possibly respect someone who holds that barbaric view.
You will now likely claim that I am misrepresenting your view. I don't agree, but you are free to make that claim.
I certainly don't care to be instructed in morality by someone who finds it ok to murder 200 civilians in the space of a week while claiming that the murderers are the victims.
You can respond (or not) however you wish. I'm done with you.
COLGATE4
(14,732 posts)When someone gets on their hobby horse and starts unleashing pious dicta ("The more powerful military is required to use retraint" I am curious to learn the authority for that pronouncement. From your non-answer it is clear that the only authority for this dictum is you. Sorry if I don't find those pronouncements particularly persuasive.
Calista241
(5,584 posts)They've dropped how many bombs on the most populated area in the world, and have only killed 200 people? Modern explosives are exceptionally lethal, and 200 casualties is barely a drop in the bucket to what Israel could have done.
Ash_F
(5,861 posts)Open the border and let them out of that tiny ghetto.
GoneFishin
(5,217 posts)Then saying cynically afterward "we warned them to get out".
It's gibberish for consumption by the gullible.
redwitch
(14,933 posts)COLGATE4
(14,732 posts)to the Egyptians. I'm sure they'll act on it immediately.
Ash_F
(5,861 posts)Shouldn't you be down in Texas, watching the border right now?
COLGATE4
(14,732 posts)a moment, doesn't it strike you as strange that neither their Egyptian, Jordanian, Syrian or Lebanese brethren and co-religionists have shown any interest in receiving the Palestinians? Must be the Israelis' fault.
Ash_F
(5,861 posts)COLGATE4
(14,732 posts)JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)Three sides of the Gazan rectangle are under Israeli control. Egypt unfortunately allies with Israel (usually) in this intentional starvation of the million-plus prisoners. You know damn well that whenever Egypt opens the borders, Israel and the U.S. start to howl at and bully Cairo.
COLGATE4
(14,732 posts)(and I understand that, with your mindset you won't), no Arabs have warmly welcomed their Palestinian brethren, either before and certainly not after the creation of Israel. You don't see a whole lot of interest in Egypt regaining the Gaza, nor Jordan the West Bank. In short, the adjoining Arab states are thrilled to be rid of the problem and also thrilled because they can use it politically to make it Israel's problem.
GoneFishin
(5,217 posts)to their folding to US and israeli will.
Allowing medical supplies, construction materials, food and clothing through the border would be no burden on Egypt at all. Funny how they happen to enforce exactly the policy of israel which is to blockade any tiny bits of creature comfort that might slip in.
COLGATE4
(14,732 posts)medical supplies, construction materials, etc. etc. have in the past been allowed in to Gaza. Their importation was restricted only when it became apparent that much what was being brought in was armaments instead of civilian items which could be used for the peoples' good. Most of the Palestinians' suffering is directly attributable to their own corrupt and morally bankrupt leadership which has grafted millions of dollars in aid without doing much of anything to alleviate the peoples' problems. But now it's Israel and Egypt's fault.
GoneFishin
(5,217 posts)independent sources? Convenient isn't it? It's bullshit that they can't tell a box of band-aids from a box of bullets.
Whatever corruption exists, it sure as hell doesn't excuse bulldozing families' homes, destroying their crops, or shooting their children.
It is crystal clear that this is all about creating a harsh, inhospitable environment with the long game of depopulating and re-settling every inch of the occupied territories. A glance at a couple of maps from the past, and today, make that undeniable.
COLGATE4
(14,732 posts)You can't be serious.
question everything
(47,264 posts)Go to the I/P forum and you will find that many of the sources are from Israel. None is from any Arab country. I suppose Al Jazerra reports from Egypt - when the reporters are not arrested.
I don't suppose you stop to think about the irony - people come to Israel freely and report as they see and hear. Nothing like that can be done in any Arab country. But, hey complain about "reports that cannot be verified."
question everything
(47,264 posts)Egypt closed the border at Rafah, which is the main gate of Gaza to the world. And... Hamas wants this gate to be opened as a condition to stop firing rockets.
Think about it: Hamas is mad at Egypt so it bombards Israel!
And DUers applaud this "logic."
Ash_F
(5,861 posts)question everything
(47,264 posts)and... Israel provides electricity to Gaza. Electricity that Hamas damaged to... why not make like even more miserable?
I am not sure whether Hamas is refusing Israel's assistance or Israel is saying F**ck you (as it should).
Ash_F
(5,861 posts)That is kind of focusing international discussion on the Israeli government at the moment.
cali
(114,904 posts)Iron Dome has over a 90% effectiveness rate.
Rhinodawg
(2,219 posts)January
In January, Palestinian Militants launched 22 rockets and four mortar shell at Israel in 19 separate attacks. Two of the rockets were launched from Sinai.[6][7]
January 13
Two rockets were launched to the Northern Negev desert, near Sderot. There were no injuries or damage reported[8]
January 16
At 2am, five rockets were fired into Israel. The Iron Dome eliminated all rockets, as they would have hit Ashkelon. No injuries or damage were reported.[8]
January 30
A rocket exploded in a non-inhabited area of Sdot Negeb Regional Council. No injuries or damage were reported.[9]
January 31
From the Sinai Peninsula a rocket was launched towards Eilat. The Iron Dome intercepted the rocket. The radical Salafi organization Ansar Bait al-Maqdis took responsibility for the launch.[10]
February
In February, Palestinian Militants launched nine rockets at Israel in seven separate attacks.[7]
February 6
A Color Red siren alerting residents of a rocket launch from Gaza has been sounded in Ashkelon, followed by an explosion.[11]
A further rocket launched from the Gaza Strip exploded in the Eshkol Regional Council. No injuries or damage were reported.[12]
February 8
A red alert siren sounded in Sha'ar Hanegev and Sdot Negev Regional Councils. A rocket hit an open area in Sha'ar HaNegev. No injuries or damages were reported.[13]
February 10
Palestinians fired a rocket into the Ashkelon Coast Regional Council, triggering sirens. After nightfall, a second rocket was launched into the same area. No injuries or damage were reported. Israel responded with an air strike on an underground rocket launcher in the central Gaza Strip.[14][15]
February 14
In the evening, Palestinian Militants launched two rockets into Israel. One landed in the Ashkelon Coast Regional Council, the other in the Eshkol Regional Council. No injuries or damage were reported.[16]
March
In March, Palestinians launched 65 rockets and mortar shell, in 23 attacks.[17]
March 1
In the night on Mount Hermon were heard loud blasts. The IDF checked the area and found the remains of two rockets near an IDF outpost. No injuries or damage were reported.[18]
March 3
Mosaab Zaaneen, a 25-year-old militant from Palestinian Islamic Jihad, was killed in an Israeli air strike as he was attempting to launch rockets from Beit Hanoun in the northern Gaza Strip. The Israel Defense Forces stated that the strike "was carried out in order to eliminate an imminent attack targeting civilian communities of southern Israel".[19]
March 5
Palestinians fired a rocket towards the Sha'ar Hanegev Regional Council, triggering sirens in local communities. The projectile landed within the Gaza Strip. Later, after nightfall, a second rocket was fired at Sderot. No injuries or damage were reported in either attack.[20]
March 11
After nightfall, Palestinians fired a rocket into the Sha'ar Hanegev Regional Council. The projectile landed in an open area, causing no injuries or damage.[21]
March 1214
Palestinian Islamic Jihad Militants fired at least 60 rockets at Israeli cities and towns, in the heaviest barrage since 2012. No direct injuries were reported, but a 57-year-old woman was lightly injured while taking cover in Sderot. At least eight rockets fell within communities, with one exploding near a gas station and another near a public library. Explosions rocked the cities of Sderot and Netivot, and sirens sounded as far away as Beersheba.[22][23]
April
In April, There were 19 rockets and 5 motar shell in 14 attacks towards Israel.[24]
April 1
Residents heard massive detonations. Three rockets were fired at Eilat, which were intercepted by the Iron Dome.[25]
April 3
The "Code Red" siren was heard 3 times in a row in the evening. No rocket landing were identified, therefore the rockets came down within Gaza.[26]
April 4
In the Hof Ashkelon Regional Council a rocket exploded in the open area, close to the border fence. No injuries or damage were reported.[27]
April 5
Militants in Gaza fired a rocket into Israel. No injuries or damage were reported.[28]
April 6
In the Sha'ar HaNegev Regional Council, near a kibbuz, was heard an explosion of a mortar shell. No red alert siren sounded before. No one was hurt, no damage reported.[29]
April 7
A mortar shell launched from Syria landed in the border fence area in the center of the Golan Heights. There were no reports of casualties or material damage. The mortar shell was not intended to hit Israel, but rather an unintended consequence from the Syrian Civil War. [30]
April 9
In the early afternoon a Color Red siren alerting residents of a rocket launch from Gaza has been sounded in Hof Ashkelon Regional Council. The rocket came down within the Gaza strip.[31] Later in the evening a mortar rocket hit a kibbutz in the Sha'ar Hanegev Regional Council. It caused material damage, but no one was injured. No Red Siren sounded prior to the rockets landing.[32]
April 13
Very early in the morning a mortar shell exploded close to the security fence in the open field, prior to a "red alert".[33] In the late night two more mortars were launched targeting Israeli soldiers, operating at the security fence in the Southern Gaza area. No one got injured.[34]
April 16
In the night, Militants launched several rockets at Southern Israel. No injuries or damage were reported.[35]
April 21
Militants in Gaza fired seven rockets into Israel during the last day of the Passover holiday. The first three projectiles struck uninhabited areas in the Sha'ar Hanegev Regional Council, activating "Code Red" sirens. No damage was reported in the attack. Another two rockets caused light damage in Sderot. Israel responded by striking three terrorist targets in the Gaza Strip.[36]
April 23
3 rockets were fired from Gaza at the Hof Ashkelon and Sha'ar HaNegev Regional Councils, after rocket alert sirens sounded. No injuries were reported.[37]
April 24
A mortar shell exploded near the fence in Southern Gaza.[38] Later in the day explosive device explodes near IDF force at the Northern Gaza border.[39] No injuries or damage were reported
May
Throughout May 4 rockets and 3 mortar shells were launched from Gaza in 5 attacks towards Israel.[40]
May 1
A rocket hit an open area in Eshkol. No one war hurt, no damage was reported.[41]
May 21
Lots of mortar shells were fired at IDF forces on the Gaza boarder. No injuries, damages in attack.[42]
May 23
A rocket exploded in open field in Sha'ar HaNegev Regional Council. No reports of damages or injuries.[43]
May 31
In the Golan heights' area sirens were heard in several towns followed by explosions. It was assumed, that these rockets were not targeted to Israel but a result of the Syrian Civil War.[44]
June
Burning factory in Sderot, which was hit by a rocket from Gaza on June 28June 1
A rocket was fired early Sunday morning at the Eshkol region. The rocket landed in a field and no casualties were reported. [45]
June 11
A rocket fired from Gaza narrowly missed a main artery in southern Israel as it landed in a nearby dirt field without causing any injuries.[46]
June 14
2 of 3 rockets fired from Gaza fell in the Hof Ashkelon regional council in the afternoon. No injuries or damage were reported.[47]
June 15
In Ashkelon a series of explosions were heard in the evening. 4 rockets were fired from Gaza, 2 of them were intercepted by the Iron Dome. Fragments of the rockets fell across the city. There were no reports of injuries or material damages.[48]
June 16
A rocket from Gaza landed in an open area in the Ashkelon area. No damage or injuries.[49]
June 18
2 rockets fired from Gaza hit into a Sha'ar Hanegev Regional Council community and caused light damage to a structure.[50]
June 19
In the evening a rocket was fired from Gaza. It struck an open field near Sderot.[51] Later again a rocket was fired at the city of Ashkelon. It was successfully intercepted by Iron Dome.[52]
June 20
A Color Red siren alerting residents of a rocket launch from Gaza has been sounded in the Hof Ashkelon area, but the rocket didn't make it outside of the Gaza strip.[53]
June 21
Gaza Militants fired a rocket into direction of Hof Ashkelon Regional Council in southern Israel. No injuries, but damage caused to a road in Hof Ashkelon. In the evening three rockets were fired at the Sdot Negev and Sha'ar HaNegev Regional Councils. All rockets exploded in the open area. No damages or injuries were reported.[54]
June 24
In the early evening Gaza Militants fired several rockets into Southern Israel. Two of the rockets were intercepted by the Iron Dome Missile Defense System, as the rockets would have hit inhabited areas. Targets have been Ashkelon and Shaar Hanegev Regional Council.[55] Again a rocket landed in the South, in the Sdot Negev Regional Council. There were light damage, but no injuries were reported.[56]
June 27
In the morning a mortar shell exploded near the border fence between Gaza and Israel. No one was hurt. A military vehicle operating in the area was lightly damaged.[57] In the evening 6 rockets were launched from the Gaza strip. Sirens were heard in many areas to warn for incoming fire. 4 rockets fell in the open field. 2 were intercepted by the Iron Dome anti-missile system, as these rockets would have landed in populated areas of Ashekelon.[58]
June 28
In the evening several rockets were fired from the Gaza strip. 2 rockets struck an industrial factory in Sderot, causing a fire. No one was hurt from any of the rockets, but the factory was burned to the ground. All other rockets exploded in the open area in Sdot Negev.[59]
June 29
4 rockets were fired from Gaza into the South of Israel in the evening. 2 were intercepted by the Iron Dome. 2 fell in open area near the border fence. Simultaneously a Palestinian opened fire at soldiers near the security fence.[60]
June 30
All night the "Code Red" siren was heard. 16 rockets were launched from Gaza in the early morning hours. Most of the rockets landed in open areas of the Eshkol Regional Council region. Some went down in the Sedot Negev Regional Council community. One rocket caused light damage to a home. No people were thought to have been hurt.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel,_2014
I'd say warning leaflets and warning shots is restraint. And I suppose Hamas asking civilians to go into harms way is restraint? The blood of those civilians is on Hamas's hands. Just curious, how many Israeli civilians need to be killed before the IDF can respond? 100? 1000? 10,000?
Orrex
(63,084 posts)**Not if those leaflets and "warning shots" are closely followed by destructive airstrikes on civilian targets.**
Do you know how "closely" the airstrike followed the warning?
**Restraint, in this context, would be for the overwhelmingly superior military power to refrain from bombing targets known to be stuffed full of civilians. **
The mission of the IDF is to protect Israeli citizens. Restraint is doing this with the fewest civilian casualties. It isn't to let Hamas bomb whenever they want, as often as they want. Name a time when Hamas called off a rocket launch because it might kill civilians. In fact, their goal is to kill as many civilians (Palestinian and Israeli) as possible. So you are defending Hamas who intentionally kills innocent civilians and you condemn the IDF that attempts to minimize civilian casualties and still carry out its mission?
**If that means that a few ineffectual rockets get launched into Israel, then that's a reasonable trade-off, especially considering the historically dismal success rate of those rockets.**
Really? Do you think the families of those killed in the rocket attacks agree with you that they are "ineffectual"? So your point is Israel should tell Hamas that if you don't kill more then 10 or so Israelis a week we will not respond? Hamas can kill a few innocent civilians a week and not face any consequences? That make so sense to me.
**I'll answer that question after you tell me how many Palestinian civilians Israel gets to kill before it's held accountable for those deaths.**
And who, other than Israel, has held Hamas accountable for intentionally killing innocent civilians?
Orrex
(63,084 posts)Last edited Mon Jul 14, 2014, 12:38 PM - Edit history (1)
More Palestinian civilians have been killed in the past week than Israeli civilians have died from rocket attacks in the past 20 years. You find this morally equivalent?
What act by Israel could possibly be excessive or unjustified? You're fine with killing hundreds of civilians, so what would it take for you to say "hey Israel, wait just a second" in this situation?
tjl148
(185 posts)Strange you would open your message with that when you answered none of my questions.
One side intentionally targets civilians, one side attempts to minimize civilian casualties. Do you find that morally equivalent? Trying to equate number of killed on one side to number of killed on another and saying because you killed more people you are more in the wrong is like saying homicide and killing in self defense are morally the same. They are not.
If Israel is defending civilians against an enemy that is intentionally targeting civilians and Israel attempts to minimize civilian casualties in its response while accomplishing the mission, I'd say nothing. If Israel intentionally targeted civilians, like Hamas does, I'd say wait a second. Maybe the world should be saying that to Hamas now.
Ok, your turn. Answer my questions from both my posts.
Orrex
(63,084 posts)You identify the "targeting of civilians" as worse than the actual deaths of actual civilians, which I find preposterous and offensive. You also don't acknowledge the fact that, while Israel claims not to "target civilians" per se, it certainly does target and bomb locations lnown to house civilians. Do you think this victim-blaming is okay, simply because Israel declares that it's not intentional?
If we're dealing strictly in numbers, I'd say that enough Israelis have died already, and their killers should be held accountable.
Of course, since Israel has killed hundreds and hundreds of Palestinian civilians--and continues to do so--I'd say that the greater and more immediate imperative is to stop Israel and hold them accountable.
We are just going to disagree on some points. I identify "targeting of civilians" as worse then trying to minimize casualties. Do you not? How would you compare *a Just war* with terrorism? Yes, the death of all civilians is tragic, so why would Hamas make them targets? I guess I don't get how you can make Hamas the victim when they try to maximize civilian casualties? Should that not be condemned in the strongest possible way?
To your last point. How can you expect Israel to stop if Hamas doesn't? Do you really think any country would allow someone to fire rockets at its civilians and not try and stop it? If you want the Israel to stop then get Hamas to stop.
Orrex
(63,084 posts)1. Maybe you don't think Israel is showing restraint; I do. You don't know it is a last minute order.
2. I was asking a general question. However, Hamas is also guilty of mass punishment.
3. Easy for Hamas to show restraint, they stop firing rockets into Israel. I do hold Israel to the same standard as Hamas. I don't see Hamas as the victim. The Israeli and Palestinian civilians are the victims. Hamas, in my opinion, is the aggressor.
4. It is not a handful of rockets and why should Israel wait for deaths? The job of the IDF is to prevent that. The protracted bombing campaign is against military targets Hamas hides in civilian areas. So yes, if that is what it takes to take out Hamas, Israel has the right to do it. It is a war crime Hamas is willing to sacrifice 200 Palestinian civilians for propaganda purposes.
Question - how many Israeli death would it take before you would fire back?
If my platoon is taking enemy fire and casualties, I'm ordering return fire until my men are safe.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)And Hamas should be tried and convicted of doing that.
So should Israel.
Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)don't lie as the dead pile up all on one side.
A few dozen children are already dead when the compassionate and brave pilots did drop the bombs from their comfy perches.
bossy22
(3,547 posts)to make a it more fair?
People often forget a key factor in this...the IDF isn't some rogue militia group, it's the fighting force of an entire civilian population The IDF actions are the will of their democratic electorate. Put it this way, if you were were constantly having to run into bomb shelters everyday due to rockets being lobbed at your neighborhood, wouldn't you want your government to take action to stop them?
PCIntern
(25,342 posts)Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)PCIntern
(25,342 posts)Jews are supposed to watch their teenagers murdered and just take it, right? You think the Israelis want all this? Did they not immediately make peace with Egypt and Jordan? I mean, WTF are you saying that Israelis are warmongers and the rest of these folks are just peace-loving pacifists who wouldn't have harmed an insect crawling in their kitchens? What would be enough for you? Really?
Orrex
(63,084 posts)Last edited Mon Jul 14, 2014, 12:40 PM - Edit history (1)
Can we possibly settle for fewer dead Palestinian civilians?
Or should Israel continue with the United States' famous "bombing their hearts and minds" policy?
JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)Stop parroting the excuses. This murder and terror against the million-plus helpless people imprisoned in the occupied territory, who are mostly children, is for the consumption of Israel's growing domestic extremist faction, nothing more. Hamas (which I do not support) kept the ceasefire right up until IDF began the new terror bombing. For shame!
christx30
(6,241 posts)Palestinian people to start killing Hamas members.
If I'm at a peaceful protest, and some asshole near me starts throwing rocks at police, I'm going to punch his lights out and flag down a cop to turn him in. Because I know once the cops figure out where the rocks are coming from, their retaliation is going to end up in either my arrest or my death.
Palestinians are not human shields. They are hostages.
another_liberal
(8,821 posts)Do you really think the Palestinians in Gaza see Hamas as their biggest danger?
You're kidding, right?
christx30
(6,241 posts)causing the trouble, and there won't be any more trouble. Take away Israel's reason to attack, and they won't.
Punch the guy that is throwing the rocks. The cops won't kill you.
another_liberal
(8,821 posts)Within sight of the land your grandfathers and great grandfathers owned, land that is rightfully your home?
Would you do that?
GoneFishin
(5,217 posts)So then no more olive groves will be destroyed?
No more land will be stolen?
No more withholding of water and medical supplies?
There will be no more collective punishments for voting the wrong way in a "free" election?
I think you should call the White House with your solution.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)snooper2
(30,151 posts)kelliekat44
(7,759 posts)robbing of land and resources. They spotted children nearby this time...did they even look before? How about the children sleeping in their beds at night?
RufusTFirefly
(8,812 posts)Er, gee, I wonder why.
RufusTFirefly
(8,812 posts)In 2011, while law enforcement was literally busting the heads of Occupy in Oakland, that was the photo that got a lot of mainstream exposure.
mallard
(568 posts)... who sees a handy propaganda piece for what it is. For the most part, IDF pilots seem to have no apparent problems with mass death on the opposing side. This is a 'nice' way to put some makeup on an old and familiar face and spread the word.
People here piling the pressure on any and all wanting to call Israel on its latest breaking war crimes are obviously quite an important part of the formula for ... more of same. Israel has its own unique breed of loyalists, highly adapted to fending off criticism of an organized ethnic cleansing machine. It's not really war between these two sides.
Ironic, to say the least, is the extent to which Israel's own inception and indeed right to exist were [and thus still are] linked to the world's recogintion of a campaign of ethnic cleaning against them, to have granted this abode on coditions the local population not be adversely affected.
Palestinians continue to deserve national identity regardless of opinions they maintain over thr right of Israel to have robbed them of their formerly civilized any peaceful home territory.
Response to question everything (Original post)
1000words This message was self-deleted by its author.
another_liberal
(8,821 posts)There are Palestinian children all over Gaza. If we don't want to hurt any of them, after all, it's past time to demand that the Israeli government end its illegal collective punishment of the population in Gaza entirely.
Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)Terrible human shields they are, those shield get blown to smithereens so easily.
RufusTFirefly
(8,812 posts)Pillage is prohibited.
Reprisals against persons and their property are prohibited.
another_liberal
(8,821 posts)There can be no doubt about it's meaning.
that Hamas is guilty of breaking Article 33 numerous times and should be held accountable for their unlawful actions.
another_liberal
(8,821 posts)First the chief war criminals in this situation, the war-mongers running Israel, must be made to pay for their crimes. There can be little doubt who has been responsible for by far the greatest amount of innocent blood which has been shed in Palestine today.
tjl148
(185 posts)Whoever is a war criminal gets tried. Doesn't matter which side they are on.
Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)Purveyor
(29,876 posts)The CBS stunt with the israeli envoy's smartphone siren going off during the interview was rich and laughable.
Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Even as I'm disgusted by the death-loving cretins here and elsewhere who want to use him as cover for the dozens more pilots who show no such pangs of conscience.
tjl148
(185 posts)even as I am disgusted by the death-loving cretins here who want to defend human shields as a cover for Hamas who show no such pangs of conscience. Where is an example of a Hamas member having a conscience like that pilot?
Unmenacing Dennis
(50 posts)The pilot and his CO acted compassionately, given the adrenalized situation. They deserve at least some credit!
Tetris_Iguana
(501 posts)in the inflexible minds of ideologues, it seems.
red dog 1
(27,647 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)A Simple Game
(9,214 posts)Think about it, they send warning mortars onto the roof of the building before they bomb it or fire a missile into it? If mortars are that precise why waste money on a jet firing a missile or dropping a bomb? A mortar shell must be many multiple times cheaper and apparently just as precise.
As for the pilot seeing the children; don't they drop the bombs from too high or shoot the missile from too far away to even see people? Or do they make a dry pass first and if so don't they worry about surface to air missiles? I'm not sure does anyone have any expertise in this field?
And what good would warning notes do? Wouldn't that warn the people shooting the missiles along with the civilians? I think the warnings are more of a diversion than a true warning. Drop the flyers over here and bomb over there?
It all just sounds like obvious attempt for some good PR to me.
riverwalker
(8,694 posts)been hearing it for years. Israelis still deluding themselves and it's still a disgusting, cowardly bullcrap denial of reality.
bemildred
(90,061 posts)Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)Response to question everything (Original post)
Name removed Message auto-removed
Evergreen Emerald
(13,069 posts)and I have trouble believing this was not staged.
kelliekat44
(7,759 posts)randys1
(16,286 posts)Rhinodawg
(2,219 posts)But I don't think Jordan would take them in again...that whole Black September thing and all.
burrowowl
(17,606 posts)quadrature
(2,049 posts)OK,
who believes any of this?