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Tue Dec 17, 2013, 09:55 AM

Francis Dumps U.S. Cardinal Who Is Outspoken Critic Of Abortion, Gay Marriage

Source: Associated Press

Pope Francis announced changes in the influential Vatican office that evaluates and nominates candidates for bishop around the world.

....

Some members of the congregation were very conspicuously not retained. Cardinal Raymond Burke, former Archbishop of St. Louis, will no longer serve in the office.

Burke is considered an outspoken critic of abortion and same-sex marriage and a favorite of conservative Catholics. He has also been publicly critical of Francis's changes in the direction of the church. Burke retains his position as the head of the Vatican high court, the Apostolic Signatura.

Burke drew attention in the U.S. in 2004 when he said he would deny Communion to Democratic presidential nominee John Kerry, a Roman Catholic who supports abortion rights.

Read more: http://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/francis-dumps-u-s-cardinal-who-is-outspoken-critic-of-abortion-gay-marriage



Hopefully Dolan is next.

95 replies, 6681 views

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Reply Francis Dumps U.S. Cardinal Who Is Outspoken Critic Of Abortion, Gay Marriage (Original post)
Capt. Obvious Dec 2013 OP
antigop Dec 2013 #1
warrant46 Dec 2013 #8
Myrina Dec 2013 #67
warrant46 Dec 2013 #68
MBS Dec 2013 #93
Borchkins Dec 2013 #2
Katashi_itto Dec 2013 #3
loudsue Dec 2013 #66
Hekate Dec 2013 #79
happyslug Dec 2013 #89
Laurian Dec 2013 #4
rivegauche Dec 2013 #39
spiderpig Dec 2013 #90
allan01 Dec 2013 #5
AllyCat Dec 2013 #10
mountain grammy Dec 2013 #6
deurbano Dec 2013 #55
KamaAina Dec 2013 #64
Squinch Dec 2013 #73
PearliePoo2 Dec 2013 #7
loyalsister Dec 2013 #19
niyad Dec 2013 #9
RKP5637 Dec 2013 #11
Bluenorthwest Dec 2013 #12
mountain grammy Dec 2013 #17
Bluenorthwest Dec 2013 #20
Bonhomme Richard Dec 2013 #23
mountain grammy Dec 2013 #40
daleanime Dec 2013 #58
Bluenorthwest Dec 2013 #63
mountain grammy Dec 2013 #88
Katashi_itto Dec 2013 #47
Warren Stupidity Dec 2013 #75
Vashta Nerada Dec 2013 #26
Fortinbras Armstrong Dec 2013 #84
durablend Dec 2013 #13
Beacool Dec 2013 #14
DeSwiss Dec 2013 #15
Le Taz Hot Dec 2013 #16
Rozlee Dec 2013 #30
Plucketeer Dec 2013 #32
Saviolo Dec 2013 #18
rustbeltvoice Dec 2013 #21
calimary Dec 2013 #56
rustbeltvoice Dec 2013 #59
HurricaneWarning Dec 2013 #72
calimary Dec 2013 #92
Hekate Dec 2013 #80
Bonhomme Richard Dec 2013 #22
closeupready Dec 2013 #49
bluedigger Dec 2013 #24
eShirl Dec 2013 #25
Vashta Nerada Dec 2013 #27
rustbeltvoice Dec 2013 #29
Vashta Nerada Dec 2013 #31
Plucketeer Dec 2013 #35
Vashta Nerada Dec 2013 #42
cleanhippie Dec 2013 #43
Fortinbras Armstrong Dec 2013 #86
rpannier Dec 2013 #78
lostincalifornia Dec 2013 #28
SummerSnow Dec 2013 #33
2banon Dec 2013 #34
Plucketeer Dec 2013 #37
2banon Dec 2013 #50
Plucketeer Dec 2013 #70
yurbud Dec 2013 #48
2banon Dec 2013 #51
AtheistCrusader Dec 2013 #36
Android3.14 Dec 2013 #44
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Android3.14 Dec 2013 #83
HockeyMom Dec 2013 #38
cleanhippie Dec 2013 #41
reformist2 Dec 2013 #46
cleanhippie Dec 2013 #65
PearliePoo2 Dec 2013 #45
DonCoquixote Dec 2013 #52
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sandyshoes17 Dec 2013 #62
skepticscott Dec 2013 #69
theHandpuppet Dec 2013 #82
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theHandpuppet Dec 2013 #91
Cha Dec 2013 #71
chungking34 Dec 2013 #74
Gore1FL Dec 2013 #76
anasv Dec 2013 #95
liberal_at_heart Dec 2013 #77
mdbl Dec 2013 #81
Puzzledtraveller Dec 2013 #85
Orsino Dec 2013 #94

Response to Capt. Obvious (Original post)

Tue Dec 17, 2013, 09:57 AM

1. YES!!!!!!! nt

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Response to antigop (Reply #1)

Tue Dec 17, 2013, 10:19 AM

8. Burke is a homophobe

And an evil human being

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Response to warrant46 (Reply #8)

Tue Dec 17, 2013, 05:44 PM

67. More likely he's far, far in the closet & projecting self-hate he learned ...

at home, at school & in seminary ...

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Response to Myrina (Reply #67)

Tue Dec 17, 2013, 06:32 PM

68. His reign has been characterized by hateful words and deeds

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Response to antigop (Reply #1)

Thu Dec 19, 2013, 06:22 AM

93. you took the words right out of my mouth : )

I still have a personal beef about his denying John Kerry communion in the 2004 campaign.
He's the worst of the worst.

Pope Francis and Nelson Mandela both serve as shining examples of a truth that's easy to forget in politically frustrating times: yes, a single person CAN and DOES make a difference.

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Response to Capt. Obvious (Original post)

Tue Dec 17, 2013, 10:02 AM

2. buh-bye!

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Response to Capt. Obvious (Original post)

Tue Dec 17, 2013, 10:10 AM

3. Cue the Anti-Pope crowd in 3...2...

This is awesome, I figured it was only a matter of time before he begins to work on the American Right Wing Church. God knows he's got his hands full with just the Vatican cleanup alone

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Response to Katashi_itto (Reply #3)

Tue Dec 17, 2013, 04:22 PM

66. The American right wing church includes Scalia, Thomas and Alito.

The Pope needs to purge the Catholic church of Opus Dei.

In fact, burning at the stake should take place here.

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Response to loudsue (Reply #66)

Wed Dec 18, 2013, 03:52 AM

79. There are no doubt a few exploding SCOTUS heads at the moment

I'm loving it.

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Response to loudsue (Reply #66)

Wed Dec 18, 2013, 11:31 AM

89. Opus Die and the Jesuits have NEVER liked each other.

And Pope Francis is a Jesuit. Let quote Wikipedia:

Based on reports from Spain, the Superior-General of the Society of Jesus, Fr. Wlodimir Ledochowski (1866–1942), told the Vatican he considered Opus Dei "very dangerous for the Church in Spain." He described it as having a "secretive character" and saw "signs in it of a covert inclination to dominate the world with a form of Christian Masonry." These allegations against Opus Dei from within well-regarded ecclesiastical circles ("the opposition by good people," as Escrivá called it), which happened time and again in its history, are considered to be some of the roots of present-day accusations coming from the most varied quarters. This is the conclusion of some writers, including John L. Allen, Jr., CNN's Vatican analyst.

According to John Allen, one of the original sources of criticism of Opus Dei are some members of the Society of Jesus who did not understand the big difference between Opus Dei and the religious orders. Opus Dei is composed of ordinary lay Christians who are taking their baptism-based calling to become holy, as the first Christians did without in any way being externally distinguished from other citizens of the Roman Empire, as Escriva explained.

Aside from this full-blown campaign in the 1940s, there were other attacks from Jesuits in the 1950s who told some Italian parents of members of Opus Dei that their sons were being led to damnation. Another Jesuit writing against Opus Dei was Michael Walsh, who later left the Society of Jesus.
Messori also blames the Jesuits and perceivedly-liberal sectors of the church for the "myth" that Opus Dei supported fascism. From its early association with the far-right Franco regime in Spain, Opus Dei has been associated with ultra-right wing regimes.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controversies_about_Opus_Dei

Jesuits and liberal Catholics
Also, these critics were concerned that Opus Dei would take away vocations from the religious orders.
Allen talks about a rivalry between the Jesuits and Opus Dei. Intellectual Richard John Neuhaus said the following: "The opposition to Opus Dei cannot be explained without at least some reference to jealousy. Competition and jealousy among religious movements in the Catholic Church is nothing new, and some Opus Dei members are not hesitant to suggest that theirs is now the role in the Church once played by the Jesuits. The Jesuits, who were once viewed as the elite corps of the papacy, have in recent decades had a sharply attenuated relationship to the hierarchical leadership of the Church. The famous "fourth vow" of allegiance to the pope is now frequently understood by Jesuits as a vow to the papacy in general—meaning the papacy as they think it ought to be."

"Nothing attracts criticism like success," says Robert Royal, author of several books and president of the Faith and Reason Institute in Washington D.C. "In the seventy years since its founding, the Work has grown to almost eighty thousand members, over half in Europe, another third in the Americas, and the rest scattered throughout the world. As Vittorio Messori notes, this movement, which was once thought of as a pre-Vatican II fossil by progressives, has not only survived the heyday of progressive Catholic movements, but continues growing while the left in general, religious and lay, is shrinking."
According to Time Magazine, "church liberals, once riding high, have understood for decades that Rome does not incline their way. They feel abandoned, says Allen, 'and whenever you feel that way, there's a natural desire to find someone to blame.'"

The animosity from within the Church derives from the conflicting views of the role of the Church following Vatican II. At the time, the superior of the Jesuits, Pedro Arrupe, "symbolised the new post-Vatican II ethos, calling his Jesuits to be 'men for others', which in practice sometimes meant joining movements for peace and justice," while "Escrivá walked another path, insisting on the primacy of traditional forms of prayer, devotion, and the sacramental life." Making Opus Dei a "personal prelature" and Escrivá a saint "seemed like a clampdown on the Jesuits - almost as if a torch was being passed." As Allen points out, some of Opus Dei's harshest critics were once Jesuit priests."

According to Vittorio Messori, a major source of hostility towards Opus Dei is the application of political categories to a religious phenomenon such as Opus Dei. These groups against Opus Dei, he says, see everything happening in the world only with the prism of power-seeking, that is, of political spectrums of people in the left versus people on the right. Since Opus Dei is one of the major religious groups, the application of politically motivated campaigns against it is even stronger.

According to Allen, Opus Dei became the lightning rod for the attacks of liberals in the culture wars when John Paul II, perceived to be a conservative by the liberals, granted several favorable things to Opus Dei such as beatification, canonization of the founder, and personal prelature status.

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Response to Capt. Obvious (Original post)

Tue Dec 17, 2013, 10:10 AM

4. Wow. I am so encouraged by this Pope's priorities.

His emphasis on combating poverty and inequality rather than railing against abortion and gay rights is refreshing and helps balance my jaded view of religion to some extent.

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Response to Laurian (Reply #4)

Tue Dec 17, 2013, 11:50 AM

39. I completely agree! nt

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Response to rivegauche (Reply #39)

Wed Dec 18, 2013, 12:16 PM

90. Me too n/t

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Response to Capt. Obvious (Original post)

Tue Dec 17, 2013, 10:12 AM

5. so long and thanks for all the fish


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Response to allan01 (Reply #5)

Tue Dec 17, 2013, 10:25 AM

10. +1

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Response to Capt. Obvious (Original post)

Tue Dec 17, 2013, 10:14 AM

6. Yes, please! Dolan next!

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Response to mountain grammy (Reply #6)

Tue Dec 17, 2013, 12:38 PM

55. Yes! (From your mouth to the pope's ear...)

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Response to mountain grammy (Reply #6)

Tue Dec 17, 2013, 03:06 PM

64. San Francisco's Cordileone is no prize either.

He doesn't reflect the values of Bay Area Catholics at all.

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Response to mountain grammy (Reply #6)

Tue Dec 17, 2013, 09:44 PM

73. I know little about Dolan, but every time I see him, he creeps me out.

And I can't put my finger on exactly why, but there is a scandal brewing behind all that manufactured sincerity.

Don't know his past or what he stands for.

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Response to Capt. Obvious (Original post)

Tue Dec 17, 2013, 10:17 AM

7. This Pope is stirring it up in a big way.

Now...next go after the filthy pedophiles and the disgusting creeps who hid and protected them.

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Response to PearliePoo2 (Reply #7)

Tue Dec 17, 2013, 10:56 AM

19. No doubt!

He may be a force for a major worldwide cultural shift. Making liberal Catholics feel welcome could be a catalyst for major reforms. As a friend put it, he may bring the Catholic church back to Christianity.

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Response to Capt. Obvious (Original post)

Tue Dec 17, 2013, 10:20 AM

9. burke is still head of the apostolic signatura, so not overly impressed.

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Response to Capt. Obvious (Original post)

Tue Dec 17, 2013, 10:27 AM

11. Out with the haters! Clean up the church! n/t

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Response to Capt. Obvious (Original post)

Tue Dec 17, 2013, 10:38 AM

12. "Burke retains his position as the head of the Vatican high court, the Apostolic Signatura."

How is a man heading the high court a man 'dumped'? Answer, he's not dumped but it feels good to some to claim that he is. Similar to Cardinal Law, who was not 'dumped' after his crimes but rather moved to live at the Vatican in luxury and splendor as reward for what he did.
Dolan, bigoted hate speech purveyor, sexist homophobe and owner of more NYC real estate than any other person, still controls all of that wealth and still holds his office, which he holds at Francis' pleasure. He is still there because Francis lets him be there.
Archbishops in Illinois recently held 'exorcism' of marriage equality, carried on in Medieval and hate soaked rants of pure ignorance and they retain their offices.
Yawn. Same old thing. Tired of hearing that a man given an important high office in the Vatican was 'dumped' so that certain quarters can excuse the hate mongering against gay people. Hard to imagine a less honest or more deceitful tactic.
Burke retains his position as the head of the Vatican high court, the Apostolic Signatura.
The Supreme Tribunal of the Apostolic Signatura is the highest judicial authority in the Catholic Church apart from the Pope himself, also it oversees the administration of justice in the Church. He who heads this court is second to the Pope in authority and administration of what they call 'justice'. Dumped indeed. We should all be so 'dumped'.

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Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #12)

Tue Dec 17, 2013, 10:54 AM

17. One step at a time. Oh please, let's have a tiny bit of patience

for a pope who is finally pissing off the "right" people.
Now it's not just "crazy old librul Pat (me)" saying stuff. It's the pope! I will not rain on this parade just yet.

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Response to mountain grammy (Reply #17)

Tue Dec 17, 2013, 11:06 AM

20. He is retained as second authority to the Pope, not 'dumped'.

And dozens of raving homophobes are still holding offices just as he is still holding office. There is no 'parade' to rain on. I have no patience for those who say my family is a product of Satan, why do you think that I should? Please answer in detail what you would do if your family was so attacked by folks you don't know, don't care about and whom you have never wronged in any way? Be specific as to how accepting you are of virulent attacks on your household and loved ones, give examples of your actions when called horrific names.
It is easy to cheer for the man with the stick when it is not you being beaten. You got yours, eh Pat? No one is attacking YOUR house so all is well? Is that anything like the Golden Rule or any other Christian command, to say 'if it is the other being harmed, urge them to accept that harm with grace'? I thought standing up for the least powerful against the powerful was the Jesus ideal. You say the powerful should be allowed to attack until they tire of it?

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Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #20)

Tue Dec 17, 2013, 11:13 AM

23. What's the saying? Keep your enemies closer. n/t

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Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #20)

Tue Dec 17, 2013, 11:52 AM

40. I can understand your rage, for reasons I will not give you an "answer in detail"

because I don't think it's productive, but I cannot agree with you.
Please remember the world just buried Nelson Mandela this week. He didn't retain his rage like you have, and his struggles for equality against massive and violent resistance make yours look, well, kind of not so much. He embraced his tormentors and saved his nation. They have a long way to go, but they're still there.
I could say the same for Martin Luther King and other African American leaders who continue to move forward despite massive and violent resistance until, slowly, and while many more died for the cause, effected change that is still happening today. No progress is possible if every change in power ends with revenge.

You attack me personally without knowing anything about me, which tells me so much about you.

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Response to mountain grammy (Reply #40)

Tue Dec 17, 2013, 12:46 PM

58. ........

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Response to mountain grammy (Reply #40)

Tue Dec 17, 2013, 02:36 PM

63. You got personal first and also refused to answer questions asked of you, dismissed all I said

and urged me to be patient and not rain on your Pope's parade with honesty. Do you think you have the right to lecture like that? I asked you specific questions which you ignored. I asked how a man can be said to have been dumped when he retains his primary posting as Head of the Vatican court, second in legal authority only to the Pope? Is dumped honest wording in your opinion, that was the question I asked. You did not answer, but rather lectured. Is it polite to ignore what is said to you and instead chide your peers? Do you treat those you see as equals like that? I doubt it.
He was 'dumped' although he is still holding the very high office as head of the court. Dumped. I don't see that as honest. Also the OP shows no evidence his alteration in duties has to do with his attitudes, which are the same as the Pope's, about abortion and gay equality. This man retains his primary posting as head of the Vatican's court, his only superior is the Pope himself. To call that 'dumped' and to ascribe exploitative fantasy reasons for it is in my opinion highly dishonest and creepy.

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Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #63)

Wed Dec 18, 2013, 11:15 AM

88. Ok, against my better judgement, I'll respond

I carefully read your post and thought about what you said so I responded. I agree with much of your post, I just think it's time to look ahead and appreciate every step forward this pope takes, it's been too long. I would love to see him excommunicate these homophobes but it's not going to happen.

I think you overreacted to my post and you may have good reason for doing so, but I did not mean to offend or attack you in any way and apologize if you think I did.

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Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #20)

Tue Dec 17, 2013, 12:00 PM

47. Serious broken record. Perhaps we should have just kept the former Pope Ratzo

Would that have made you happy? He assisted the whole corruption.

Personally after reading dozens of your identical posts, I don't care if you've no patience.

A billion plus Catholics also look to what happening. It's not just about your rage.

Reform will move as it is moving, on it own terms and not yours.

Your rage merits you nothing, well except high blood pressure.

Seriously take up Tai Chi or Yoga or something.

Will do your inner issues some good.

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Response to Katashi_itto (Reply #47)

Tue Dec 17, 2013, 10:30 PM

75. We don't have any say at all.

The Catholic Church is an authoritarian institution. Catholic people have no say at all on who is pope or who will be pope.

There has been no change at all in official church policy with respect to women's reproductive rights or to marriage equality.

Cheer all you want, but the church remains homophobic and misogynist.

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Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #12)

Tue Dec 17, 2013, 11:15 AM

26. Yep.

 

This story is a bunch of crap.

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Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #12)

Wed Dec 18, 2013, 09:35 AM

84. You are wrong on at least one thing

You say

Archbishops in Illinois recently held 'exorcism' of marriage equality, carried on in Medieval and hate soaked rants of pure ignorance and they retain their offices.


First, there is exactly one archbishop in Illinois, the Archbishop of Chicago, Cardinal George. The only bishop to hold an exorcism rite after the passage of the gay marriage law in Illinois was the Bishop of Springfield, Thomas Paprocki. Bishop Paprocki was generally ridiculed for doing it.

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Response to Capt. Obvious (Original post)

Tue Dec 17, 2013, 10:40 AM

13. Rush will be INCENSED!

"DAMN MARXIST DESTROYING THE PLANET!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

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Response to Capt. Obvious (Original post)

Tue Dec 17, 2013, 10:45 AM

14. Now he did it!!

Limpballs will be on attack mode today on his show.



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Response to Capt. Obvious (Original post)

Tue Dec 17, 2013, 10:47 AM

15. Nice shot across the bow there Francis!

- That should pucker-up a few important butts!

K&R

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Response to Capt. Obvious (Original post)

Tue Dec 17, 2013, 10:52 AM

16. I know the critics on this board aren't going to be impressed

but given the glacial speed in which the Vatican usually moves, I think this is sending a CLEAR signal to all the religious misogynist homophobes out there. As a wholly unreligious person, I'm impressed as hell by this Pope -- both his reforms and the speed in which he's carrying them out.

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Response to Le Taz Hot (Reply #16)

Tue Dec 17, 2013, 11:29 AM

30. Well, yeah.

This is kind of the papal equivalent of going in gangbusters. I'm an atheist and critic of the Church myself, but even I'm surprised at the Francis blitzkrieg. It's not exactly a scorched earth policy since he's still keeping the Church's stance on discrimination against women, gays and the ban on artificial contraceptives, but it's a clear gauntlet slapped across the faces of the old guard.

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Response to Le Taz Hot (Reply #16)

Tue Dec 17, 2013, 11:36 AM

32. I'm with you!

I don't waste a single breath on some fantasy deity who supposedly owns my ass. That said, I do full well realize that the crazies that DO bask in their perceive subordination, have influence upon the society I live in. So I DO find it heartening to see this new pontiff light candles under the backsides of these "anti-Christ" luminaries.

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Response to Capt. Obvious (Original post)

Tue Dec 17, 2013, 10:55 AM

18. And he's doubling down on his attack on trickle-down

When he was responding to Rush's "Marxist" comments:

“Marxist ideology is wrong. But I have met many Marxists in my life who are good people, so I don’t feel offended,” he said. “There is nothing in the Exhortation that cannot be found in the social Doctrine of the Church.”

He argued that he wasn’t speaking from a technical standpoint, but rather he was trying to “give a picture of what is going on.”

“The only specific quote I used was the one regarding the ‘trickle-down theories’ which assume that economic growth, encouraged by a free market, will inevitably succeed in bringing about greater justice and social inclusiveness in the world. The promise was that when the glass was full, it would overflow, benefiting the poor. But what happens instead, is that when the glass is full, it magically gets bigger nothing ever comes out for the poor,” he said.


Definitely an interesting fellow!

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Response to Capt. Obvious (Original post)

Tue Dec 17, 2013, 11:07 AM

21. ¡Viva el Papa!

¡Viva el Papa! As i said in another thread, "Burke pegged the meter"

In some analog meters, there is a needle behind glass; to the left is '0', and the gradations continued to the right, at the end of the scale there is a measurable limit value. At times, the input could be so strong that the meter is destroyed. Raymond Burke pegged the meter in several categories. Politically, he was very active in promoting the Republican Party and attacking the Democratic Party. This went outside any pastoral activity. Within the church, he was an "Americaniser", by this i mean, he wanted to control the diocese as a corporate capitalist and tyrant. The bishop was a Leviathan. Burke was an enemy to the nationality parishes, they were only a source of income; only the bishop's opinion mattered in all matters. This country has many such bishops, Burke was the most flamboyant in the display and presentation of his person. He dressed himself in the most extreme, and extravagant regalia. How could that alone not suggest how ill suited he is to be a priest?

Pope Francis is addressing an internal problem of the church in this country. There is an extreme imbalance between the ordinary (the presiding bishop) and the People of God. Here in Cleveland, we have an horrible bishop in this regard. Richard Lennon has caused much disharmony, and ill feeling. His chief endeavor was the reduction of parishes in a cold, calculated, vicious way. People are quite parochial, they can not see much outside of their parish. And there is the great problem of church governance, which the local press would never allow to be discussed, and few parishioners would speak on.

Burke was such an extremist. With his removal from this curial position, such individuals such as himself, and Lennon, and other tyrants will not become bishops. The problem is these individuals. They act as pharoa of old, they consider themselves the only Catholic in the diocese.

So a basic question of polity is what constitutes the church in an area, what is the unit? The diocese (a political sub geographic borrowed from the Roman empire), or the parish (constituted by Jesus, when he speaks of "two or three gathered together in my name").

The average Catholic only relates to his parish. The sacramental, and communal life is done within the parish. He has little interest or concern of another parish. So the parishes are not in the practice of joining together to challenge a power (and money) grabbing bishop.

We, in Cleveland and Akron, successfully appealed to Rome (and Rome with a stacked curia, not very receptive to parishioners) and had eleven of eleven appeals against Bishop Lennon's non-canonical suppressions upheld. Lennon was even too much for the church structure to bear. We are still stuck with him, but he has little respect here, and in Rome.

With this humbling of Burke, and his loss of influence, future supreme jerks may not be inflicted upon people. These incidents are lessons for the learning.

¡Viva el Papa!

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Response to rustbeltvoice (Reply #21)

Tue Dec 17, 2013, 12:40 PM

56. Welcome to DU, rustbeltvoice!

Glad you're here! Thanks for interpreting some of this. Lifelong Catholic here and I still don't know or understand all the ins and outs of the Vatican hierarchy. I just know a bad smell when I smell one. I hope this housecleaning continues. All these hard-ass bishops and their meddling in politics are doing is turning many of us away. I'm a very alienated Catholic. I hope to God (pardon the pun) that Pope Francis keeps it up. While his policies on women (majority of the world population and a HUGE untapped and ignored talent pool) generally aren't what I'd hope for, he still represents a huge breath of fresh air, and hope that the Church can find its way back to the people - ALL the people, not just the political hardliners!

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Response to calimary (Reply #56)

Tue Dec 17, 2013, 01:27 PM

59. Gaudete-Rejoice

I read the news yesterday, but i saw something was dated 15 December. That was Sunday, the third Sunday in Advent, Gaudete Sunday. The introit for the Mass begins, "Gaudete in Domino semper: iterum dico, gaudete". "Rejoice in the Lord always: again I say, rejoice".

Yes, Rejoice. Perhaps, our Pope has a sense of humour. I remember at Mass, at St. Stanislaus Cleveland, Father William Gulas speaking about the rose garment. There are only two days on the church calendar which the vestments can be pink (rose, is the liturgical term). The one is Gaudete Sunday, and it is not required to refrain from the more somber violet, where rose is the option. Fr. Willie, as he enjoyed being called, was not particularly enthusiastic about the pink threads. He said the ladies in the parish enjoyed it, and they found it in the attic. And it was an old vestment, of old rose, and not bright pink. Well, Burke enjoys expensive and extravagant dress up (click).

Also, to much of the American public that is regarding this news about Burke only note his positions on the pelvic issues. Burke has recently gone on EWTN and criticised the pope. Burke is a favorite of those whom approve of the term "culture warrior". But Burke is an ecclesiastical tyrant, that enjoys the theatre of being the center of his own autocratic imperial court.

And to-day, is the 17th of December. Pope Francis is 77 years old. To-day is the birthday of Ludwig Beethoven. Beethoven wrote a choral symphony on Schiller's Ode to Joy. " target="_blank">click, and " target="_blank">click

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Response to rustbeltvoice (Reply #59)

Tue Dec 17, 2013, 09:40 PM

72. Thanks

I've been looking for the link to Burke's clothing costs all day. The fact that Burke has been demoted makes me smile.

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Response to rustbeltvoice (Reply #59)

Thu Dec 19, 2013, 02:06 AM

92. You know, rustbeltvoice, I'd heard about "Cardinal Bling" but - pardon the pun -

JEEEEEZUS!!!! That is extravagantly OBSCENE, if you ask me. I had no idea how bad it was. I'm stunned to look at those photos. The fancy shoes. The gold and jewel-studded bishop's mitre. The extravagant matching gloves. Holy CRAP!!!! That's just a flat-out disgrace! It's a SIN! A cardinal sin, if you'll pardon the pun! Greed, and pride, as well, are two of the Seven Deadlies, after all. When I was in Catholic school, we heard a lot about the vows of poverty, chastity, and obedience. Maybe that was only for the nuns and not the priests. But I also saw a lot of mercenary motivations displayed among even some of the nuns, especially the principal. But that Burke dude - SHEESH!!! Since when is he supposed to parade around in garb better than the Shah of Iran or the Queen of England in full royal regalia and crown jewels?!?!?!?!?!??!???! Excuse me?????????? I'd like to see him try to fit through the eye of the proverbial needle!

Just a DISGRACE!!!! Burke is a diamond-studded disgrace!

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Response to rustbeltvoice (Reply #21)

Wed Dec 18, 2013, 04:06 AM

80. Welcome to DU, rustbeltvoice

Your post is most informative, and I look foreword to seeing you around.

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Response to Capt. Obvious (Original post)

Tue Dec 17, 2013, 11:12 AM

22. I am speechless. Burke was the final straw for me when he........

denied Kerry communion.

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Response to Bonhomme Richard (Reply #22)

Tue Dec 17, 2013, 12:05 PM

49. +1.

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Response to Capt. Obvious (Original post)

Tue Dec 17, 2013, 11:14 AM

24. Pope Francis is showing some political savvy.

By liberalizing the selection of the Churches' hierarchy he is strengthening his position and looking to the future. If he has enough time I think he is going to be the most influential Pope of my generation.

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Response to Capt. Obvious (Original post)

Tue Dec 17, 2013, 11:14 AM

25. yet again, this pope ain't kiddin' around

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Response to Capt. Obvious (Original post)

Tue Dec 17, 2013, 11:16 AM

27. Burke is dumped from what, exactly?

 

From the article:

Burke retains his position as the head of the Vatican high court, the Apostolic Signatura.

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Response to Vashta Nerada (Reply #27)

Tue Dec 17, 2013, 11:25 AM

29. from the Congregation for Bishops

The Congregation for Bishops (Congregatio pro Episcopis) is the department of the Roman Curia involved in the selection of most bishops.

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Response to rustbeltvoice (Reply #29)

Tue Dec 17, 2013, 11:35 AM

31. But he's still the head of the Vatican's high court.

 

And nowhere in the article does it mention that Francis dumped Burke because of his conservative views or because of his outspoken views against him.

Misleading article.

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Response to Vashta Nerada (Reply #31)

Tue Dec 17, 2013, 11:40 AM

35. What's that old axiom about actions speaking LOUDER than words?

See, bein' he's pope, he don't have to explain himself - unless he wants to, of course.

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Response to Plucketeer (Reply #35)

Tue Dec 17, 2013, 11:53 AM

42. That's what you're going with?

 

Really?

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Response to Plucketeer (Reply #35)

Tue Dec 17, 2013, 11:55 AM

43. The point is he wast fired for being anti-gay and abortion.

Because the pipe is also anti-gay and anti-abortion.

That is all speculation by the writer. Unsupported speculation.

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Response to Vashta Nerada (Reply #31)

Wed Dec 18, 2013, 10:26 AM

86. Yes, Burke is still head of the highest court of appeals

But that is nowhere near as significant as being in the Congregation of Bishops. Relatively few cases ever reach the Apostolic Signatura, and most of them are fairly technical in nature. Besides which, the overwhelming majority of cases in the Catholic system have to do with marriage annulments. Burke's former post in the Congregation of Bishops had him directly involved in choosing who is to be a bishop and where, which is an extremely important thing in Church governance.

Basically, Pope Francis did not completely humiliate Burke; but he did take away the really meaningful post that he had. Think of it as the equivalent of kicking him upstairs.

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Response to Vashta Nerada (Reply #27)

Wed Dec 18, 2013, 01:55 AM

78. Burke has lost the ability to choose the new Bishops and Cardinals for the US

That job is now Wuerle's (D.C.)
By having only one U.S. cardinal that means almost all new appointees will be chosen by him.
Burke's appointees have been Cardinals in San Francisco, Portland and Hartford. All horrible choices.
It's also been said that Burke regularly consulted Cardinal Law, formerly of Boston. Law also loses his input from his cushy spot in the Vatican

The short term ramifications may seem small, but the longer term will likely be felt for years.
Wuerle is much harsher on the child molestation cases. He did work with authorities about the molestations.
With Burke being gone, the investigation of the nuns will likely come to zip.
Burke can sit as prelate, but as far as I can tell from checking various sources the Apostolic Signatura is similar to a weaker version of the Supreme Court. Most Church matters are not decided by them. And the Pope can always overrule and ignore tham

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Response to Capt. Obvious (Original post)

Tue Dec 17, 2013, 11:21 AM

28. I wonder what hard right elements in the Church will do? hopefully, nothing. This is the first

glimmer of light in the Catholic Church since Pope John the 23rd

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Response to Capt. Obvious (Original post)

Tue Dec 17, 2013, 11:39 AM

33. Cardinal Raymond Burke will soon be on Fox news crying. lol

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Response to Capt. Obvious (Original post)

Tue Dec 17, 2013, 11:39 AM

34. Ok. So help me out here. Burke "retains" his position but he will no longer serve office?

is there a grammatical error, or is this journalistic double speak? or what am I not getting?

Some members of the congregation were very conspicuously not retained. Cardinal Raymond Burke, former Archbishop of St. Louis, will no longer serve in the office


Yet in the last sentence of 3rd excerpt the opposite seems to be stated:

Burke retains his position as the head of the Vatican high court, the Apostolic Signatura.


and yes, I agree let's see Dolan and a number of others given the boot.

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Response to 2banon (Reply #34)

Tue Dec 17, 2013, 11:46 AM

37. C'mon

Even I - a totally non-religious sort - recognize there's TWO different offices (jobs) that this Cardinal serves in. The pope has stopped him from having his slanted views involved - kinda like our presidents slanting the courts by their choices of judges. Yet the Cardinal IS left to serve (for now) as a judge on the vatican's high court.

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Response to Plucketeer (Reply #37)

Tue Dec 17, 2013, 12:08 PM

50. So then he wasn't actually "dumped" after all.

No, the Vatican/Church bureaucracy isn't widely understood or clear. You can take your condescending, snarky remarks somewhere else.

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Response to 2banon (Reply #50)

Tue Dec 17, 2013, 07:07 PM

70. I'm sorry

If my comments come across as snarky and condescending, it's because you can't comprehend them - best I can figure.

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Response to 2banon (Reply #34)

Tue Dec 17, 2013, 12:02 PM

48. sounds like a different job like Congressmen who sit on more than one committee

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Response to yurbud (Reply #48)

Tue Dec 17, 2013, 12:09 PM

51. I see, thanks. eom

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Response to Capt. Obvious (Original post)

Tue Dec 17, 2013, 11:42 AM

36. Soo... Francis would have... fired himself, if he'd been Pope 6 years ago?

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #36)

Tue Dec 17, 2013, 11:56 AM

44. What an odd response for an atheist

It sounds as if you (incorrectly) assume the Pope shuffled him around because the cardinal was a critic of abortion, homosexuality, etc. Speaking as an agnostic observer, it is obvious the Pope did this because the guy is critical of the Pope, antithetical to the Pope's stated goals, and the cardinal had power over choosing bishops.

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Response to Android3.14 (Reply #44)

Tue Dec 17, 2013, 12:18 PM

54. The TPM article kinda sideways infers that to be the case.

Otherwise, why bring it up? Maybe just a shoddy piece of journalism.

If that WAS a prime motivator, then Francis's public comments in Argentina would suggest a level of hypocrisy. That was the point of my comment.

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #54)

Wed Dec 18, 2013, 06:58 AM

83. Yup.

The headline does imply that. The editor usually writes a headline, which is meant to capture attention. The article itself is straightforward and doesn't bring up the conservative stances of the cardinal until mid-article.
While I am happy with the new Pope's rhetoric, and enjoy watching these bigoted priests lose power, I'm still waiting for this Pope to order some of their treasure sold to feed the poor.

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Response to Capt. Obvious (Original post)

Tue Dec 17, 2013, 11:48 AM

38. Getting back to the basics

Caring for the poor, the sick, and the elderly. No wonder the Repubs are having a hissy fit.

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Response to Capt. Obvious (Original post)

Tue Dec 17, 2013, 11:53 AM

41. Was it because of his opposition to abortion and gays? Because the Pope's position is the same.

Not sure why he would fire a person for holding the exact same views he does.



Must be a different reason for being fired.

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #41)

Tue Dec 17, 2013, 11:59 AM

46. One gets the sense the Pope wants to change the tone, the emphasis.


This pope really has taken the spirit of Vatican II to heart, he may be first one to do so.

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Response to reformist2 (Reply #46)

Tue Dec 17, 2013, 03:07 PM

65. Considering that the Popes views on abjection and gays is exactly the same

It's unlikely he was fired for holding those views.

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Response to Capt. Obvious (Original post)

Tue Dec 17, 2013, 11:59 AM

45. A comment at the TPM link:

"His food taster better quit!"
I don't think Francis is done stirring some shit either.

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Response to Capt. Obvious (Original post)

Tue Dec 17, 2013, 12:15 PM

52. I hate to be a downer

But until certain people are force out, and not "I still am head of the apostolic curia" it does not matter how many republicans are angry, the badguys still are in power.

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Response to Capt. Obvious (Original post)

Tue Dec 17, 2013, 12:16 PM

53. Pope Francis strikes again. I really like this pope. n/t

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Response to Capt. Obvious (Original post)

Tue Dec 17, 2013, 12:41 PM

57. Ok, this atheist ex-Catholic is starting to warm to this pope

I am now cautiously optimistic.

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Response to Capt. Obvious (Original post)

Tue Dec 17, 2013, 01:54 PM

60. Burke should be defrocked.

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Response to Capt. Obvious (Original post)

Tue Dec 17, 2013, 02:30 PM

61. I have been critical of the Pope's comments,

by saying, talk is cheap. The Pope can say all sorts of things that sound like things people want to hear, but unless he acted on his words, it is only words.

This is a real positive action! Kudos to Pope Francis!

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Response to Capt. Obvious (Original post)

Tue Dec 17, 2013, 02:35 PM

62. He's taking steps in the right direction

And each day it seems he takes another. I like him, he has been moving forward since he took this position. I know he's not doing it all, but is moving in a direction I like. He is slowly moving to the left, more than I can say about a lot of our reps, who have slowly been moving us to the right. Sometimes you have to move slowly and steadily to get better progress. He seems to be in line with Elizabeth Warren, the message is in the right direction and at a perfect time. If our politicians won't move us more left maybe he can. I don't care where it comes from

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Response to Capt. Obvious (Original post)

Tue Dec 17, 2013, 06:43 PM

69. Does anyone here actually believe that Burke was not retained because

he was against abortion and same-sex marriage? Seriously? Have DU Catholics been that blinded? The whole damn Vatican is vehemently against abortion and same sex marriage, for pity's sake! Including the pope. If he was removed for any reason, it was the "outspoken" part, because the pope doesn't want people around who will call too much media attention to the Catholic Church's bigoted teachings (which have not changed one whit, and will not). And does anyone….ANYONE think that the pope will replace this guy with someone who has different positions on these issues? Please.

So let's recap. The pope is replacing one guy who feels adamantly that abortion and same-sex marriage should be illegal with another guy who….wait for it….feels adamantly that abortion and same-sex marriage should be illegal. And DUers are celebrating about this? Really?

How sad is that?

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Response to skepticscott (Reply #69)

Wed Dec 18, 2013, 06:23 AM

82. Don't expect logic on this subject

I attempted it trying to reconcile the love for an unabashed homophobic misogynist on a progressive democratic forum.

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Response to theHandpuppet (Reply #82)

Wed Dec 18, 2013, 11:12 AM

87. I don't

Not where religion is concerned. It really is amazing how the same people who immediately recognize Republican PR campaigns as the bullshit they are swallow the Vatican's PR nonsense hook, line and sinker. I can only assume that there are a lot of DUers who are grabbing at any excuse, any lame justification, to continue to support the Catholic Church in all of its bigotry and corruption, while still telling themselves that they're progressives worthy of the name. They have somehow convinced themselves that a pope who thinks same-sex marriage is fundamentally evil is a reason to stop being embarrassed to support the RCC.

As I said, truly sad.

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Response to skepticscott (Reply #87)

Wed Dec 18, 2013, 12:31 PM

91. Look at it this way...

If Francis were an unapologetic racist, would so may people on DU be cheering him on? But since he's "just" a misogynist and homophobe, well, they can look past that. Really? The cognitive dissonance is astounding.

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Response to Capt. Obvious (Original post)

Tue Dec 17, 2013, 09:01 PM

71. Good.

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Response to Capt. Obvious (Original post)

Tue Dec 17, 2013, 09:46 PM

74. Wow, that's quite big of him

 

Now if only he would do something about the rampant child sex abuses so prevalent in his church. Though it's more likely that pigs will fly before something is done about that.

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Response to Capt. Obvious (Original post)

Tue Dec 17, 2013, 11:14 PM

76. That guy sucks!

I'm not Catholic. I don't know the ins and outs of the policies and politics. All I know is that guy was always making headlines being a douchebag.

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Response to Gore1FL (Reply #76)

Thu Dec 19, 2013, 08:22 AM

95. Tobin in RI is simliar

 

During Mandela's funeral he was blathering away about how Mandela was not that great because he supported abortion rights. Tobin, always on the wrong side of issues. He gets press in RI because it's such a Catholic state, but whenever I see his name in the news, I want to say, shut up.

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Response to Capt. Obvious (Original post)

Wed Dec 18, 2013, 12:08 AM

77. I wish Obama would fire some of his cabinet members, Arne Duncan especially.

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Response to Capt. Obvious (Original post)

Wed Dec 18, 2013, 05:38 AM

81. Burke is just an example

of someone who needs sex. He's always irritated, explosive and cranky. Kinda like most right wing talk radio and tv commentators.

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Response to Capt. Obvious (Original post)

Wed Dec 18, 2013, 09:57 AM

85. Of all the things, the papal lovefest on DU is the strangest

Some dissonance has to be at play here.

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Response to Capt. Obvious (Original post)

Thu Dec 19, 2013, 07:06 AM

94. Can Donohue be next?

A bit of dissociation there would go a long way.

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