Barack Obama apology to Afghanistan over Koran burning

Insanity.

Admittedly this is an inflammatory action, but where is the outrage from the Afghans when honor killing of little girls and women take place along with genital mutilation?

I'm certainly NOT advocating burning Korans, nor am I Islamaphobic, but damn-- all this for a book?

Nonetheless, we'll be paying for this one way or another. . .

It wasn't done purposefully to inflame, the President has offered an apology and they're still rioting - if it wasn't this, it would be something else.

Our situation is probably not comparable as in general we value the bible far less, I don't even know if there is a proper way to dispose of the bible. You have this foreign military occupying their country, probably instances where they lost friends/family, probably for reasons they don't understand as a poll at one time showed that a great number of them were completely unaware of 9/11, they are so poor-apology probably hasn't reached many Afghanis, may not have internet access to read articles reading that this wasn't done intentionally, or they could have trust issues considering the times our military, CIA, improperly killed civilians and whitewashed it(we've been there how long and we make a mistake like this?), etc. Then this occupying force does something they find completely disrespectful. I have no idea what they generally consider to be rude/respect/disrespect but in Iraq some things are completely different. Sitting with your ankle on your knee and your shoe facing somebody is somewhat the equivalent of an FU or middle finger. The guy that threw that shoe Bush was like an ultra F U. If someone there offers you something, you say no, they offer it to you again, they consider it rude if you don't accept.

Point is, if we were in a similar situation w/ everything but the book burning, I imagine some aspect would drive some of us crazy. We have some religious fanatics ourselves.

In general I agree with you because I see it as crazy behavior for something that is just book in my view. However, I didn't grow up being taught how important it is and surrounding by other people that view it as equally important and proper disposal being highly valued.

I have no idea, just sharing what I've been thinking about a lot(which keeps changing) ever since my initial reaction which is exactly like yours. I just know, any culture has some shit that is really important that some other culture couldn't care less about. You are probably 100% correct.

Obama apologizes again--who knows why (blink blink)

Until Freepers can admit our role in the violence, we are condemned to repeat it.

Reminds me of the crap over "Satanic Verses". The damn books are just damn books, no intelligent Christian would engineer a Jihad over somebody burning a bible. Some people just live to be outraged at something.

Having the POTUS apologize about a burned book is just going to encourage extreme over reactions in the future.

I know it's not something he does regularly like Limbo and his ilk are wont to suggest but it sure is one data point we could live without.

And since when do they need anything even remotely approaching legitimacy to criticize President Obama for? They're crazed Idiocratic banshees who have no idea what diplomacy is about. The only language they understand is Bush's Shock and Awe policies. And look how well that policy worked out.

I'm simply saying we don't need to be adding real reasons to all their imaginary ones. I like Obama...quite a bit, but I'm not going to be dissuaded from criticizing him when I think it's deserved.

You can criticize all you want. Who's dissuading you?

And why should he be afraid of being criticized either?

Most people get it right away.

I'd better not hear a peep out of any of those who cheer this shit on.

after all, it's just a piece of cloth and a book.

It's made by a book publisher, which was made out of trees that were cut down from some rain forest somewhere. I think burning the American flag is disrespectful to it, but that is also just a piece of cloth, probably made in China.

Qur'an is just a book. But apparently many of them don't. That's one reason why I wish we could just get out of there now. There are too many kooks over there.

anyone with any awareness of 2012 knows that the people there do not have the same outlook on life as people in the Western Hemisphere do and they resist being dragged into the present.

There are plenty of kooks over here too--like the fundamental xtians trying to turn all women into second class citizens.

And please do point me to where Americans rioted and murdered over a the Bible or the flag. Even the people who are upset by it aren't this moronic.

Cultural sensitivity seems beyond some people.

What I see (and agree with) is the absurdity of the riots and murdering over a stupid book and being in the position of having to apologize for it. It's like the perpetual outrage of the republicans.....if it wasn't this, it would be something else so why apologize. As far as I'm concerned, fuck the apology, it's not going to change the perpetual outrage cuz some people just look to be outraged.

wedding parties - they would be so grateful. At least we wouldn't see all of this perpetural outrage by people just looking for excuses to get upset. But I guess that comparison is not fair. Because America would never attack another country.

or perhaps ask Salman Rushdie about how it takes bombs and occupation to make some Muslims go crazy over a book.

until you thought it was all about the occupation that made some Muslims go nuts for a book. I pointed out, with an example, that was a fallacy. So they've gotten their apology, several of them in fact, for an inadvertant act and you still want to play this stupid game that it's about the koran? I assume you want us to immediately leave there - without giving any concern for the women who are going to have to live like slaves again? Just as long as the Americans aren't there.

either. And Cultural sensitivity should not extend to turning a blind eye to violence committed over the mere burning of a book, any book.

...like he normally does.

You see, this is another culture and the Koran is in fact seen as the word of God. It doesn't mean we have to agree, but to burn it with garbage is just stupidly rude, beyond insensitive. You must remember the RW preacher in FL who burned a Koran? And the outcomes...Now, if these Holy Korans were being used to pass secrets of the prisoners, then yes they could have been removed without burning them. You know, lock 'em in a file cabinet or closet. Just another way our nation is being seen as rude, ugly and totally uncaring. Last I heard, 58 members of our USA armed services have died at the hands of Afghan soldiers on purpose. OMG this is so very bad...

people need beheading.
(I consider contemporary Christianism to be equally vile and disgusting, just to be clear and equitable)

http://www.godisimaginary.com

This one, see?

But I do wish the military kept the burning secret.

Are any Afgans outraged by the prisoner's actions?

Because that's exactly the behavior you just became an apologist for.

Swiss Cheese.

Don't you have a Klan meeting to attend somewhere? Spare us your hateful garbage.

Have a point. They are murdering people over a book. But none of them, not even Karzi, our supposed ally, and the man we put into power, are apologizing over that. It's like someone ramming your house with their and demanding you pay for the damage to their car. Where is the sensitivity to OUR culture? To the lives that were ended? If the Korans contained secret messages, they should have been studied, then flown back in secret for disposal. But this was not cultural insensitivity. The people that weaponized the Koran were the insensitive ones. You put guns in a church, we have to attack the church to protect human life.

...

Andrea Mitchell ‏ @mitchellreports
White House Press Secy Jay Carney points out Bush Press Secy Dana Perino also apologized for Quran abuse to protect U.S troops
https://twitter.com/mitchellreports/status/172869317011046400

Plus the two Afghans who were also killed?

That's why we apologize for this kind of inexcusable shit, even if they don't.

The Korans should never have been burned. On the other hand, I'm sick and tired of Muslim fundamentalists using religion as an excuse to butcher their fellow humans.

Instead, they are being shot and killed by Afghan security forces.

Thanks for the clarification.

Some of the comments on this thread sound exactly like comments one would find in freeperville.

Damn, if we are going to wage war on much of the Islamic world, surround them with our militaries, tell their governments what to do and control their resources - we can at least show a little respect.

But not Afghanistan - their government was sheltering the same people who tried to blow up the US Cole and the group that brought about 9/11. We asked for bin laden and they refused. Almost 3000 Americans were killed that day. Should we have done nothing? Should we have let bin laden live his life out in Afghanistan? I think not. To go further, I would have been fine for attacking the taliban simply for the way they treated women..they behaved like animals.

If anything it helps the remnants of the Taliban and the most reactonary elements in Afghanistan. Here we are 10 years after the fall of Kabul and the Al Qaida barely exist in Afghanistan anymore. Yet drones still rain down upon civilians, their country occupied and an upopular government completely dependent upon U.S. power is still in place. If one cannot understand the simmering resentment on several levels..

I would be totally for getting every American military person out of Afghanistan - if we could take all the women with us. The sad reality is that the very second we leave, their lives will, once again, become one of bleak servitude to the men so I'm very torn on the issue.

That doesn't change the fact that I have nothing but contempt for those rioting and murdering because of a freeking book. NOTHING BUT CONTEMPT and have no desire to see their point of view because it's bullshit and I have no reason to honor it and neither does any other civilized person.

about the women or anyone else in Afghanistan - then the last thing we want to do whether we go or whether we stay is turn the whole country and a lot of other people against us with total insensitivity while we occupy their country.

One that has already gotten an apology from the President (and as I suspected, has done no good because if it wasn't this it would be something else for many of the rioters http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/02/24/afghanistan-protests-quran-burnings_n_1298512.html?ref=world

I maintain that if what these people are worried about is a book being burned, they have bigger problems than having Americans in their country. Many of them want us to leave so they can go back to making their women slaves. Not all cultures are created equal - some of them are backward and wretched.

. Even people who might otherwise not be hostile. When it is a country we are also military occupying - it makes matters even worse. No doubt the culture is not very advanced. But we are not going to enlighten them by treating them with a contemptuous attitude. It is hardly a secret that things like this makes matters much worse for those more symathetic to a more western point of view. Unless one's goal is to make matters much worse. Even George W. Bush understood some of these sensitivities

Maybe the men are deeply offended (and I'm not even sure of that - I maintain they're looking for something to be outraged about) - I suspect the women are more concerned about not being slaves to their fathers/brothers/husbands - they want to raise their children and live their lives.

The President has apologized and it's still not enough. For some who are just waiting for us to leave so they can return to the 9th century, nothing will be enough so I have my troubles in caring about a book being burned. Before we got there, women couldn't leave their homes, couldn't go to school, couldn't work, couldn't even go to a doctor without some man's permission. You'll have to excuse me for not giving a shit about the men who want to return to that without the interference of the west.

anywhere -even the most liberated and very westernized one's who do not find burning the Koran deeply offensive. If the goal is to further destabalize Afghanistan and make life worse for the women - then burning the Koran and not apologizing for it makes perfect sense. If one's goal is to help the women of Afghanistan than having cultural sensitivities about matters like this is the rational thing to do.

So I'm not sure where you're going with this. And I think if you ask the women which upset them more - a burning book or having acid thrown in their faces for the way they're dressed, you'll find a burning book waaaaay down on the list of things to be concerned about.

If western people want to influence Afghanistan or anyone else toward a more enlightened society where women don't get acid thrown in their face - things like burning the Koran and other acts of disrespect that upsets Muslim women too - are about the last thing we want to do. It makes matters only worse. What society in the world is going to listen to people who look down on them as subhumans?
American military power cannot restructure male-female relationships in Afghanistan.

Just wait for the barbarians to realize they're human? I'm all for trying to reason with people - it will not work with some. Like I said before and will not apologize for thinking - some cultures are backwards, barbaric and are in no way deserving of respect. Since we know people don't give up their power over others cuz they're asked to nicely, what do you suggest we do to help the women (who are the only ones I really care about and will not apologize for)?

And impose by force a total social order on them and attempt to forcibly restructure their entire society - and even then it probably won't work. Social evolution is unfortunately a slow process. It took the West thousands of years to get to where it is. And even then it has been within my lifetime that women developed any real sense of independent control over their lives at all. So we are left with promoting human rights organizations and humanitarian organizations that have developed inroads with the women of Afghanistan.

Most of the world - the vast majority of humanity - is full of absolutely deplorable conditions. Drive through any major third world city and you will see thousands of little children living on the streets with little or no hope for a brighter future. Most of the world is like that. Military power has almost no ability to deal with even a fraction of most of the world's wretched conditions.

But when Western arrogance and imperialist adventurism is completely insensitive - we usually - almost always - produce a reactionary backlash. If we go back 40 years - extremist political Islamic fundamentalism was a marginal movement in most the Islamic world including Afghanistan and Pakistan. Most popular political expression was socialist or nationalist - sometimes pro-Soviet - but overwhelmingly secularist. When these forces were defeated largely with the help of western power and thus could not achieve a better life for their people. Western - American-style capitalist forces were not producing a better life for their people either. That is when we saw the rise of extremist, radical political Islamic fundamentalism - frequently, but not always aided and abetted by the United States.

There is no magic cure to improve the lives of women and children who live in terrible conditions in much of the world. But military power cannot do it. So, again we are left with promoting human rights organizations and humanitarian organizations that have developed inroads with the women of Afghanistan. It is not much in the big picture. But is better than alienating the people through militarism and provoking reactionary backlash.

We have poverty right here in the US and answer is ALWAYS education. While I agree that military action will not accomplish what I want, the thought of leaving the women of Afghanistan to the barbarians makes me sick.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2001/oct/14/afghanistan.terrorism5

http://www.counterpunch.org/2004/11/01/how-bush-was-offered-bin-laden-and-blew-it/

gone there (according to the Guardian article - sorry I put counterpunch on the same level of the washington times when it comes to reporting and wont click there). These offers are often made to get the side "winning" to stop so they can regroup. They had their chance before we got there and decided continuing to protect bin laden was the way to go. No sympathy from this New Yorker.

of what point you're trying to make.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osama_bin_Laden#Clinton_administration

"Shortly after the September 11 attacks it was revealed that President Clinton had signed a directive authorizing the CIA (and specifically their elite Special Activities Division) to apprehend bin Laden and bring him to the United States to stand trial after the 1998 United States embassy bombings in Africa; if taking bin Laden alive was deemed impossible, then deadly force was authorized."

But none of Clinton's military actions captured OBL.

Nations asked for Kissenger and we refused. Gander/goose

to go and get him - and I'm glad we did.

the Koran burnin would be spitting mad if Islamists (or anyone else) started burning the bible. Talk about hypocrites.
.

The US military burned a bunch of bibles that were sent unsolicited to soldiers in 2009, and amazingly enough there were no riots and nobody died as a result.

second of sleep if someone had burned one or one million bibles. I consider all "holy" books to be shit.

Why would they have to burn the books? That nonsense about the hidden messages was a joke.

Also, HOW did the Afghans find out about the burning?

This was done intentionally, either to distract from the other bullshit we're doing or to make Muslims look uncivilized and deserving of what we're doing! Bastards!

"Why would they have to burn the books? "

Because unwanted trash gets burned. The books were considered trash.

"HOW did the Afghans find out about the burning? "

Afghan contractors who were doing the burning recognized the books, pulled them out of the fire, and made the issue public.

Books, flags, and swastikas....
If I am going to call flying the confederate flag and donning a swastika extremely offensive, why is it so unreasonable to accept that the symbolism attached to a religious text is important enough to some people as to inspire rage?

This shouldn't be so difficult. Words are symbols and most of us don't drop F bombs around grandma.
Obama did the right thing by recognizing that an important symbol should be respected. For some in a country that has been at war for decades either with us directly or because of us it may be the only security to cling to.

I'm sure most Americans would throw away a damaged bible without a second thought. This was a cross-cultural screw-up being twisted by Islamists in order to stir up mobs.

A screw up, yes, but the reaction has been over the top. And it being a cultural difference doesn't make it right.

I'd be surprised if the didn't riot.

they have virtually 100% correlation.

The faster we leave that cesspool the better.

Sorry... Couldn't resist...

Either you repugs are screaming that Obama's not Christian enough....

or you're insensed because he's doing something that reeks of Christian doctrine:
i.e., seeking forgiveness for offending another person, even if it was unintentional.

Do you want him tough and demanding, and unforgiving?

Or do you want him prostrate on the floor under the weight of
christian confession?

This is getting more and more ridiculous.

Our fundies go beserk because the President stated (in effect) that a woman's right to healthcare trumps religious dogma.



Can't help but think that the world would be much better off without fundies of any stripe.