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Thu Feb 23, 2012, 01:29 PM

Barack Obama apology to Afghanistan over Koran burning

President Barack Obama has apologised to the Afghan people for the burning of Korans by American troops at a US base.

In a letter to President Hamid Karzai, Mr Obama expressed his "deep regret" and said the incident earlier this week was a genuine mistake.

Demonstrations against the desecration have continued for a third day across northern and eastern Afghanistan.

Two US soldiers and two Afghans were killed in an attack on a military base. Elsewhere there were four other deaths.

full: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-17144726

95 replies, 10137 views

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Arrow 95 replies Author Time Post
Reply Barack Obama apology to Afghanistan over Koran burning (Original post)
alp227 Feb 2012 OP
msongs Feb 2012 #1
LostinRed Feb 2012 #27
leftynyc Feb 2012 #2
BigDemVoter Feb 2012 #46
leftynyc Feb 2012 #47
JonLP24 Feb 2012 #88
librechik Feb 2012 #3
sinkingfeeling Feb 2012 #4
didact Feb 2012 #42
sinkingfeeling Feb 2012 #44
slackmaster Feb 2012 #5
Fortran Feb 2012 #14
Mosby Feb 2012 #50
Fortran Feb 2012 #65
lunatica Feb 2012 #76
Fortran Feb 2012 #82
lunatica Feb 2012 #84
Fortran Feb 2012 #85
lunatica Feb 2012 #86
SemperEadem Feb 2012 #6
chrisa Feb 2012 #7
totodeinhere Feb 2012 #9
SemperEadem Feb 2012 #48
demosincebirth Feb 2012 #19
leftynyc Feb 2012 #10
uppityperson Feb 2012 #22
leftynyc Feb 2012 #25
Douglas Carpenter Feb 2012 #30
leftynyc Feb 2012 #90
Douglas Carpenter Feb 2012 #91
leftynyc Feb 2012 #94
AndySipowicz Feb 2012 #79
totodeinhere Feb 2012 #60
cstanleytech Feb 2012 #92
Drunken Irishman Feb 2012 #8
still_one Feb 2012 #11
drynberg Feb 2012 #12
uppityperson Feb 2012 #21
Fortran Feb 2012 #68
uppityperson Feb 2012 #71
Fortran Feb 2012 #83
uppityperson Feb 2012 #87
alp227 Feb 2012 #35
hugo_from_TN Feb 2012 #55
Odin2005 Feb 2012 #74
PavePusher Feb 2012 #78
Monty22001 Feb 2012 #13
Fortran Feb 2012 #15
CrawlingChaos Feb 2012 #18
christx30 Feb 2012 #61
Fortran Feb 2012 #69
Tx4obama Feb 2012 #16
Robb Feb 2012 #17
Beacool Feb 2012 #20
Arkana Feb 2012 #49
Beacool Feb 2012 #62
Comrade Grumpy Feb 2012 #63
Beacool Feb 2012 #64
Douglas Carpenter Feb 2012 #23
Douglas Carpenter Feb 2012 #24
leftynyc Feb 2012 #26
Douglas Carpenter Feb 2012 #29
leftynyc Feb 2012 #31
Douglas Carpenter Feb 2012 #32
leftynyc Feb 2012 #33
Douglas Carpenter Feb 2012 #34
leftynyc Feb 2012 #37
Douglas Carpenter Feb 2012 #39
leftynyc Feb 2012 #40
Douglas Carpenter Feb 2012 #41
leftynyc Feb 2012 #45
Douglas Carpenter Feb 2012 #53
leftynyc Feb 2012 #57
alp227 Feb 2012 #36
leftynyc Feb 2012 #38
alp227 Feb 2012 #51
leftynyc Feb 2012 #52
alp227 Feb 2012 #56
leftynyc Feb 2012 #59
krshnbrn Feb 2012 #54
leftynyc Feb 2012 #58
avebury Feb 2012 #28
slackmaster Feb 2012 #43
Fortran Feb 2012 #70
uranus is my home Feb 2012 #66
boppers Feb 2012 #72
loyalsister Feb 2012 #67
Odin2005 Feb 2012 #73
knowledgeispwr Feb 2012 #75
AndySipowicz Feb 2012 #80
Fortran Feb 2012 #77
AndySipowicz Feb 2012 #81
BadtotheboneBob Feb 2012 #89
noel711 Feb 2012 #93
Amaril Feb 2012 #95

Response to alp227 (Original post)

Thu Feb 23, 2012, 01:45 PM

1. religious bullies insecure in their own beliefs; religion is so wonderful eh? nt

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Response to msongs (Reply #1)

Fri Feb 24, 2012, 05:34 AM

27. yup it's great n/t

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Response to alp227 (Original post)

Thu Feb 23, 2012, 01:54 PM

2. Murder over a freeking book

Insanity.

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #2)

Fri Feb 24, 2012, 11:12 AM

46. Agreed 100%

Admittedly this is an inflammatory action, but where is the outrage from the Afghans when honor killing of little girls and women take place along with genital mutilation?

I'm certainly NOT advocating burning Korans, nor am I Islamaphobic, but damn-- all this for a book?

Nonetheless, we'll be paying for this one way or another. . .

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Response to BigDemVoter (Reply #46)

Fri Feb 24, 2012, 11:29 AM

47. And I agree with your thoughts 100%

It wasn't done purposefully to inflame, the President has offered an apology and they're still rioting - if it wasn't this, it would be something else.

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #47)

Sun Feb 26, 2012, 08:06 PM

88. I look at it like this

Our situation is probably not comparable as in general we value the bible far less, I don't even know if there is a proper way to dispose of the bible. You have this foreign military occupying their country, probably instances where they lost friends/family, probably for reasons they don't understand as a poll at one time showed that a great number of them were completely unaware of 9/11, they are so poor-apology probably hasn't reached many Afghanis, may not have internet access to read articles reading that this wasn't done intentionally, or they could have trust issues considering the times our military, CIA, improperly killed civilians and whitewashed it(we've been there how long and we make a mistake like this?), etc. Then this occupying force does something they find completely disrespectful. I have no idea what they generally consider to be rude/respect/disrespect but in Iraq some things are completely different. Sitting with your ankle on your knee and your shoe facing somebody is somewhat the equivalent of an FU or middle finger. The guy that threw that shoe Bush was like an ultra F U. If someone there offers you something, you say no, they offer it to you again, they consider it rude if you don't accept.

Point is, if we were in a similar situation w/ everything but the book burning, I imagine some aspect would drive some of us crazy. We have some religious fanatics ourselves.

In general I agree with you because I see it as crazy behavior for something that is just book in my view. However, I didn't grow up being taught how important it is and surrounding by other people that view it as equally important and proper disposal being highly valued.

I have no idea, just sharing what I've been thinking about a lot(which keeps changing) ever since my initial reaction which is exactly like yours. I just know, any culture has some shit that is really important that some other culture couldn't care less about. You are probably 100% correct.

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Response to alp227 (Original post)

Thu Feb 23, 2012, 02:02 PM

3. RW will use this as ammunition

Obama apologizes again--who knows why (blink blink)

Until Freepers can admit our role in the violence, we are condemned to repeat it.

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Response to alp227 (Original post)

Thu Feb 23, 2012, 02:06 PM

4. If we're ever to have a civilized world, apologies should be more common.

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Response to sinkingfeeling (Reply #4)

Fri Feb 24, 2012, 10:02 AM

42. I'm sorry you feel that way...

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Response to didact (Reply #42)

Fri Feb 24, 2012, 10:44 AM

44. And I'm terribly sorry that you don't.

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Response to alp227 (Original post)

Thu Feb 23, 2012, 02:36 PM

5. I wish he'd told them to lighten up instead

 

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #5)

Thu Feb 23, 2012, 05:55 PM

14. I wish he'd told them to shove it. Or just ignored the whole thing.

 

Reminds me of the crap over "Satanic Verses". The damn books are just damn books, no intelligent Christian would engineer a Jihad over somebody burning a bible. Some people just live to be outraged at something.

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Response to Fortran (Reply #14)

Fri Feb 24, 2012, 12:49 PM

50. Someone at a much lower level should have apologized

Having the POTUS apologize about a burned book is just going to encourage extreme over reactions in the future.

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Response to Mosby (Reply #50)

Sat Feb 25, 2012, 05:01 PM

65. And it (legitimately) gives ammuniton to the wingnuts who claim the Prez appeases terrorists.

 

I know it's not something he does regularly like Limbo and his ilk are wont to suggest but it sure is one data point we could live without.

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Response to Fortran (Reply #65)

Sun Feb 26, 2012, 08:46 AM

76. How exactly does it "legitimately" give ammunition to the Idiocrats?

And since when do they need anything even remotely approaching legitimacy to criticize President Obama for? They're crazed Idiocratic banshees who have no idea what diplomacy is about. The only language they understand is Bush's Shock and Awe policies. And look how well that policy worked out.

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Response to lunatica (Reply #76)

Sun Feb 26, 2012, 04:50 PM

82. It is legitimate in the precise same way that facts are.

 

I'm simply saying we don't need to be adding real reasons to all their imaginary ones. I like Obama...quite a bit, but I'm not going to be dissuaded from criticizing him when I think it's deserved.

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Response to Fortran (Reply #82)

Sun Feb 26, 2012, 05:23 PM

84. Why should Obama be afraid of facts?

You can criticize all you want. Who's dissuading you?

And why should he be afraid of being criticized either?

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Response to lunatica (Reply #84)

Sun Feb 26, 2012, 05:32 PM

85. Pabst Blue Ribbon. Varp ent slorp. I now understand your username.

 


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Response to Fortran (Reply #85)

Sun Feb 26, 2012, 05:37 PM

86. My username is quite clear

Most people get it right away.

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Response to alp227 (Original post)

Thu Feb 23, 2012, 02:50 PM

6. so when the american flag and the bible get burned

I'd better not hear a peep out of any of those who cheer this shit on.

after all, it's just a piece of cloth and a book.

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Response to SemperEadem (Reply #6)

Thu Feb 23, 2012, 03:21 PM

7. I would hope we would be sane enough to realize it's just a book.

It's made by a book publisher, which was made out of trees that were cut down from some rain forest somewhere. I think burning the American flag is disrespectful to it, but that is also just a piece of cloth, probably made in China.

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Response to chrisa (Reply #7)

Thu Feb 23, 2012, 03:32 PM

9. I would also hope that the people in Afghanistan would also realize that the

Qur'an is just a book. But apparently many of them don't. That's one reason why I wish we could just get out of there now. There are too many kooks over there.

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Response to totodeinhere (Reply #9)

Fri Feb 24, 2012, 11:57 AM

48. well they don't--and that is square one here.

anyone with any awareness of 2012 knows that the people there do not have the same outlook on life as people in the Western Hemisphere do and they resist being dragged into the present.

There are plenty of kooks over here too--like the fundamental xtians trying to turn all women into second class citizens.

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Response to chrisa (Reply #7)

Thu Feb 23, 2012, 10:15 PM

19. We? don't you mean them?

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Response to SemperEadem (Reply #6)

Thu Feb 23, 2012, 03:36 PM

10. Who is cheering?

And please do point me to where Americans rioted and murdered over a the Bible or the flag. Even the people who are upset by it aren't this moronic.

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #10)

Thu Feb 23, 2012, 10:47 PM

22. If you read all the replies in this thread, you will find those cheering this on.

Cultural sensitivity seems beyond some people.

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Response to uppityperson (Reply #22)

Fri Feb 24, 2012, 05:09 AM

25. I don't see anyone cheering the burning

What I see (and agree with) is the absurdity of the riots and murdering over a stupid book and being in the position of having to apologize for it. It's like the perpetual outrage of the republicans.....if it wasn't this, it would be something else so why apologize. As far as I'm concerned, fuck the apology, it's not going to change the perpetual outrage cuz some people just look to be outraged.

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #25)

Fri Feb 24, 2012, 08:30 AM

30. right, if the people of New York City were occupied by a foreign power and drones rained down upon

wedding parties - they would be so grateful. At least we wouldn't see all of this perpetural outrage by people just looking for excuses to get upset. But I guess that comparison is not fair. Because America would never attack another country.

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Response to Douglas Carpenter (Reply #30)

Mon Feb 27, 2012, 05:22 AM

90. Spare me the martyr routine

or perhaps ask Salman Rushdie about how it takes bombs and occupation to make some Muslims go crazy over a book.

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #90)

Mon Feb 27, 2012, 06:40 AM

91. I thought we were talking about Afgahanistan and this particular incident in Afghanistan

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Response to Douglas Carpenter (Reply #91)

Mon Feb 27, 2012, 08:30 AM

94. Yes, we were

until you thought it was all about the occupation that made some Muslims go nuts for a book. I pointed out, with an example, that was a fallacy. So they've gotten their apology, several of them in fact, for an inadvertant act and you still want to play this stupid game that it's about the koran? I assume you want us to immediately leave there - without giving any concern for the women who are going to have to live like slaves again? Just as long as the Americans aren't there.

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #25)

Sun Feb 26, 2012, 02:22 PM

79. agree

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Response to uppityperson (Reply #22)

Fri Feb 24, 2012, 01:51 PM

60. Cultural sensitivity should be a two way street. I don't see much of it over on their side

either. And Cultural sensitivity should not extend to turning a blind eye to violence committed over the mere burning of a book, any book.

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Response to totodeinhere (Reply #60)

Mon Feb 27, 2012, 07:14 AM

92. Agreed. nt

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Response to alp227 (Original post)

Thu Feb 23, 2012, 03:26 PM

8. Good for him. I'm sure the GOP will trash him, but he did the right thing...

...like he normally does.

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Response to alp227 (Original post)

Thu Feb 23, 2012, 04:01 PM

11. It is time for us to get out of Afghanistan. bin laden is gone /nt

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Response to alp227 (Original post)

Thu Feb 23, 2012, 04:05 PM

12. The "Koran" is NOT just a BOOK, it is HOLY

You see, this is another culture and the Koran is in fact seen as the word of God. It doesn't mean we have to agree, but to burn it with garbage is just stupidly rude, beyond insensitive. You must remember the RW preacher in FL who burned a Koran? And the outcomes...Now, if these Holy Korans were being used to pass secrets of the prisoners, then yes they could have been removed without burning them. You know, lock 'em in a file cabinet or closet. Just another way our nation is being seen as rude, ugly and totally uncaring. Last I heard, 58 members of our USA armed services have died at the hands of Afghan soldiers on purpose. OMG this is so very bad...

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Response to drynberg (Reply #12)

Thu Feb 23, 2012, 10:45 PM

21. Indeed and thank you for your post.

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Response to uppityperson (Reply #21)

Sat Feb 25, 2012, 08:44 PM

68. In light of your signature line, I find it amazing that you're defending a religion that says gay

 

people need beheading.
(I consider contemporary Christianism to be equally vile and disgusting, just to be clear and equitable)

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Response to Fortran (Reply #68)

Sat Feb 25, 2012, 08:59 PM

71. If that is your view, I am glad you are shaking in fear.

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Response to uppityperson (Reply #71)

Sun Feb 26, 2012, 04:52 PM

83. Why would you imagine I'm shaking in fear? I'm not afraid of imaginary deities...

 

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Response to Fortran (Reply #83)

Sun Feb 26, 2012, 05:41 PM

87. because you chose the smilie of shaking in fear, the "scared"one.

This one, see?

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Response to drynberg (Reply #12)

Fri Feb 24, 2012, 09:10 AM

35. There's no such thing as anti religious bigotry unless people are the target.

But I do wish the military kept the burning secret.

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Response to drynberg (Reply #12)

Fri Feb 24, 2012, 01:27 PM

55. Isn't it disrespectful to use the book to pass messages to one another instead of religious study?

Are any Afgans outraged by the prisoner's actions?

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Response to drynberg (Reply #12)

Sat Feb 25, 2012, 10:23 PM

74. A cross-cultural mistake does not justify homicidal raging mobs.

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Response to drynberg (Reply #12)

Sun Feb 26, 2012, 10:53 AM

78. So, we can use burning of Christian bibles as an excuse to kill Afghanis?

 

Because that's exactly the behavior you just became an apologist for.

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Response to alp227 (Original post)


Response to Monty22001 (Reply #13)

Thu Feb 23, 2012, 05:57 PM

15. Zackly. The only thing in this goofy world that actually is holy is

 

Swiss Cheese.

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Response to Monty22001 (Reply #13)

Thu Feb 23, 2012, 09:57 PM

18. what a disgusting post

Don't you have a Klan meeting to attend somewhere? Spare us your hateful garbage.

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Response to CrawlingChaos (Reply #18)

Fri Feb 24, 2012, 02:19 PM

61. Monty does kind of

Have a point. They are murdering people over a book. But none of them, not even Karzi, our supposed ally, and the man we put into power, are apologizing over that. It's like someone ramming your house with their and demanding you pay for the damage to their car. Where is the sensitivity to OUR culture? To the lives that were ended? If the Korans contained secret messages, they should have been studied, then flown back in secret for disposal. But this was not cultural insensitivity. The people that weaponized the Koran were the insensitive ones. You put guns in a church, we have to attack the church to protect human life.

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Response to CrawlingChaos (Reply #18)

Sat Feb 25, 2012, 08:45 PM

69. It was not disgusting, it was prescient and intelligent.

 

...

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Response to alp227 (Original post)

Thu Feb 23, 2012, 09:34 PM

16. WH Press Secy Jay Carney points out Bush Press Secy Dana Perino also apologized for Quran abuse...


Andrea Mitchell ‏ @mitchellreports
White House Press Secy Jay Carney points out Bush Press Secy Dana Perino also apologized for Quran abuse to protect U.S troops
https://twitter.com/mitchellreports/status/172869317011046400

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Response to Tx4obama (Reply #16)

Thu Feb 23, 2012, 09:36 PM

17. Lest we forget, there was also the Letter of the Two Sorries. (nt)

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Response to alp227 (Original post)

Thu Feb 23, 2012, 10:19 PM

20. Did they apologize for the two American soldiers they killed?

Plus the two Afghans who were also killed?



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Response to Beacool (Reply #20)

Fri Feb 24, 2012, 12:29 PM

49. No, but we're supposed to be better than the fundamentalists.

That's why we apologize for this kind of inexcusable shit, even if they don't.

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Response to Arkana (Reply #49)

Fri Feb 24, 2012, 02:30 PM

62. I have no problem with Obama's apology.

Last edited Fri Feb 24, 2012, 09:01 PM - Edit history (1)

The Korans should never have been burned. On the other hand, I'm sick and tired of Muslim fundamentalists using religion as an excuse to butcher their fellow humans.

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Response to Beacool (Reply #20)

Fri Feb 24, 2012, 02:41 PM

63. The US soldiers were killed by an Afghan soldier. I don't think the rioters killed anybody.

Instead, they are being shot and killed by Afghan security forces.

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Response to Comrade Grumpy (Reply #63)

Fri Feb 24, 2012, 04:53 PM

64. Oh, OK.

Thanks for the clarification.

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Response to alp227 (Original post)

Fri Feb 24, 2012, 04:03 AM

23. Gingrich blasts Obama’s apology to Afghan president



Republican White House hopeful Newt Gingrich has angrily denounced President Obama's apology to Afghan President Hamid Karzai over the burning of Korans at a U.S. military base.

The former speaker took to his Twitter feed to condemn Obama's letter to Karzai, saying: "It is an outrage that on the day an Afghan soldier murders two American troops, Pres. Obama is the one apologizing."

The incident at Bagram Air Base triggered a violent response from Afghans, with 14 dead over three days of protests. Two American soldiers were shot dead when an Afghan soldier turned his weapon on them at their base in Khogyani in eastern Nangarhar province, district governor Mohammad Hassan told AFP.

Obama's apology mirrored that given by then-President George W. Bush in April after an American sniper in Afghanistan shot a Koran, peppering the Muslim holy book with bullet holes. At the time, White House spokeswoman Dana Perino had emphasized that it was important to show that the US president "knew that this was wrong."


Ahead of Gingrich's vitriolic comment, Obama spokesman Jay Carney told reporters aboard Air Force One that the apology was "wholly appropriate, given the sensitivities to this issue, the understandable sensitivities."

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/gingrich-blasts-obama-apology-karzai-230630584.html

.

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Response to alp227 (Original post)

Fri Feb 24, 2012, 04:07 AM

24. I guess the Afghanistan people should be more grateful for all the wonderful things we are doing

Some of the comments on this thread sound exactly like comments one would find in freeperville.

Damn, if we are going to wage war on much of the Islamic world, surround them with our militaries, tell their governments what to do and control their resources - we can at least show a little respect.

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Response to Douglas Carpenter (Reply #24)

Fri Feb 24, 2012, 05:17 AM

26. When it comes to Iraq, I agree with you

But not Afghanistan - their government was sheltering the same people who tried to blow up the US Cole and the group that brought about 9/11. We asked for bin laden and they refused. Almost 3000 Americans were killed that day. Should we have done nothing? Should we have let bin laden live his life out in Afghanistan? I think not. To go further, I would have been fine for attacking the taliban simply for the way they treated women..they behaved like animals.

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #26)

Fri Feb 24, 2012, 08:09 AM

29. I just don't see how disrepecting the Afghanistan people helps Afghanistan's women or anyone else

If anything it helps the remnants of the Taliban and the most reactonary elements in Afghanistan. Here we are 10 years after the fall of Kabul and the Al Qaida barely exist in Afghanistan anymore. Yet drones still rain down upon civilians, their country occupied and an upopular government completely dependent upon U.S. power is still in place. If one cannot understand the simmering resentment on several levels..

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Response to Douglas Carpenter (Reply #29)

Fri Feb 24, 2012, 08:31 AM

31. That's a whole different topic

I would be totally for getting every American military person out of Afghanistan - if we could take all the women with us. The sad reality is that the very second we leave, their lives will, once again, become one of bleak servitude to the men so I'm very torn on the issue.

That doesn't change the fact that I have nothing but contempt for those rioting and murdering because of a freeking book. NOTHING BUT CONTEMPT and have no desire to see their point of view because it's bullshit and I have no reason to honor it and neither does any other civilized person.

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #31)

Fri Feb 24, 2012, 08:35 AM

32. it is not just the people who are rioting or murdering who are offended. If one cares the least bit

about the women or anyone else in Afghanistan - then the last thing we want to do whether we go or whether we stay is turn the whole country and a lot of other people against us with total insensitivity while we occupy their country.

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Response to Douglas Carpenter (Reply #32)

Fri Feb 24, 2012, 08:40 AM

33. Again, they're offended by a book burning

One that has already gotten an apology from the President (and as I suspected, has done no good because if it wasn't this it would be something else for many of the rioters http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/02/24/afghanistan-protests-quran-burnings_n_1298512.html?ref=world

I maintain that if what these people are worried about is a book being burned, they have bigger problems than having Americans in their country. Many of them want us to leave so they can go back to making their women slaves. Not all cultures are created equal - some of them are backward and wretched.

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #33)

Fri Feb 24, 2012, 08:52 AM

34. it is hardly a secret that almost all people in Afghanistan are deeply offended by burning the Koran

. Even people who might otherwise not be hostile. When it is a country we are also military occupying - it makes matters even worse. No doubt the culture is not very advanced. But we are not going to enlighten them by treating them with a contemptuous attitude. It is hardly a secret that things like this makes matters much worse for those more symathetic to a more western point of view. Unless one's goal is to make matters much worse. Even George W. Bush understood some of these sensitivities

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Response to Douglas Carpenter (Reply #34)

Fri Feb 24, 2012, 09:20 AM

37. Respectfully disagree

Maybe the men are deeply offended (and I'm not even sure of that - I maintain they're looking for something to be outraged about) - I suspect the women are more concerned about not being slaves to their fathers/brothers/husbands - they want to raise their children and live their lives.

The President has apologized and it's still not enough. For some who are just waiting for us to leave so they can return to the 9th century, nothing will be enough so I have my troubles in caring about a book being burned. Before we got there, women couldn't leave their homes, couldn't go to school, couldn't work, couldn't even go to a doctor without some man's permission. You'll have to excuse me for not giving a shit about the men who want to return to that without the interference of the west.

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #37)

Fri Feb 24, 2012, 09:25 AM

39. I would be very surprised if you found a single Muslim Afghanistan women or Muslim women from

anywhere -even the most liberated and very westernized one's who do not find burning the Koran deeply offensive. If the goal is to further destabalize Afghanistan and make life worse for the women - then burning the Koran and not apologizing for it makes perfect sense. If one's goal is to help the women of Afghanistan than having cultural sensitivities about matters like this is the rational thing to do.

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Response to Douglas Carpenter (Reply #39)

Fri Feb 24, 2012, 09:31 AM

40. But we did apologize

So I'm not sure where you're going with this. And I think if you ask the women which upset them more - a burning book or having acid thrown in their faces for the way they're dressed, you'll find a burning book waaaaay down on the list of things to be concerned about.

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #40)

Fri Feb 24, 2012, 09:39 AM

41. yes and apologizing was the right thing to do, wasn't it?

If western people want to influence Afghanistan or anyone else toward a more enlightened society where women don't get acid thrown in their face - things like burning the Koran and other acts of disrespect that upsets Muslim women too - are about the last thing we want to do. It makes matters only worse. What society in the world is going to listen to people who look down on them as subhumans?
American military power cannot restructure male-female relationships in Afghanistan.

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Response to Douglas Carpenter (Reply #41)

Fri Feb 24, 2012, 10:56 AM

45. So how do we help the women?

Just wait for the barbarians to realize they're human? I'm all for trying to reason with people - it will not work with some. Like I said before and will not apologize for thinking - some cultures are backwards, barbaric and are in no way deserving of respect. Since we know people don't give up their power over others cuz they're asked to nicely, what do you suggest we do to help the women (who are the only ones I really care about and will not apologize for)?

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #45)

Fri Feb 24, 2012, 01:12 PM

53. unless we are going to position at least a million troops in the country for the next hundred years


And impose by force a total social order on them and attempt to forcibly restructure their entire society - and even then it probably won't work. Social evolution is unfortunately a slow process. It took the West thousands of years to get to where it is. And even then it has been within my lifetime that women developed any real sense of independent control over their lives at all. So we are left with promoting human rights organizations and humanitarian organizations that have developed inroads with the women of Afghanistan.

Most of the world - the vast majority of humanity - is full of absolutely deplorable conditions. Drive through any major third world city and you will see thousands of little children living on the streets with little or no hope for a brighter future. Most of the world is like that. Military power has almost no ability to deal with even a fraction of most of the world's wretched conditions.

But when Western arrogance and imperialist adventurism is completely insensitive - we usually - almost always - produce a reactionary backlash. If we go back 40 years - extremist political Islamic fundamentalism was a marginal movement in most the Islamic world including Afghanistan and Pakistan. Most popular political expression was socialist or nationalist - sometimes pro-Soviet - but overwhelmingly secularist. When these forces were defeated largely with the help of western power and thus could not achieve a better life for their people. Western - American-style capitalist forces were not producing a better life for their people either. That is when we saw the rise of extremist, radical political Islamic fundamentalism - frequently, but not always aided and abetted by the United States.

There is no magic cure to improve the lives of women and children who live in terrible conditions in much of the world. But military power cannot do it. So, again we are left with promoting human rights organizations and humanitarian organizations that have developed inroads with the women of Afghanistan. It is not much in the big picture. But is better than alienating the people through militarism and provoking reactionary backlash.

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Response to Douglas Carpenter (Reply #53)

Fri Feb 24, 2012, 01:35 PM

57. Sigh - unfortunately, I think you are right

We have poverty right here in the US and answer is ALWAYS education. While I agree that military action will not accomplish what I want, the thought of leaving the women of Afghanistan to the barbarians makes me sick.

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Response to alp227 (Reply #36)

Fri Feb 24, 2012, 09:25 AM

38. That was AFTER we had already

gone there (according to the Guardian article - sorry I put counterpunch on the same level of the washington times when it comes to reporting and wont click there). These offers are often made to get the side "winning" to stop so they can regroup. They had their chance before we got there and decided continuing to protect bin laden was the way to go. No sympathy from this New Yorker.

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #38)

Fri Feb 24, 2012, 01:05 PM

51. so that must be why military action directed by Clinton never got OBL.

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Response to alp227 (Reply #51)

Fri Feb 24, 2012, 01:10 PM

52. Sorry - I have no idea

of what point you're trying to make.

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #52)

Fri Feb 24, 2012, 01:31 PM

56. your point was that Afghanistan was shielding OBL

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osama_bin_Laden#Clinton_administration

"Shortly after the September 11 attacks it was revealed that President Clinton had signed a directive authorizing the CIA (and specifically their elite Special Activities Division) to apprehend bin Laden and bring him to the United States to stand trial after the 1998 United States embassy bombings in Africa; if taking bin Laden alive was deemed impossible, then deadly force was authorized."

But none of Clinton's military actions captured OBL.

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Response to alp227 (Reply #56)

Fri Feb 24, 2012, 01:38 PM

59. And? (n/t)

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #26)

Fri Feb 24, 2012, 01:23 PM

54. We asked for bin laden and they refused.

Nations asked for Kissenger and we refused. Gander/goose

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Response to krshnbrn (Reply #54)

Fri Feb 24, 2012, 01:37 PM

58. Shrug - we had the power

to go and get him - and I'm glad we did.

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Response to alp227 (Original post)

Fri Feb 24, 2012, 06:32 AM

28. The same people who are screaming over Obama apologizing over

the Koran burnin would be spitting mad if Islamists (or anyone else) started burning the bible. Talk about hypocrites.
.

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Response to avebury (Reply #28)

Fri Feb 24, 2012, 10:06 AM

43. Google burned bibles afghanistan if you want to see what actually happened

 

The US military burned a bunch of bibles that were sent unsolicited to soldiers in 2009, and amazingly enough there were no riots and nobody died as a result.

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Response to avebury (Reply #28)

Sat Feb 25, 2012, 08:48 PM

70. You are 100% wrong. I don't think Obama should have apologized, and I wouldn't have lost one

 

second of sleep if someone had burned one or one million bibles. I consider all "holy" books to be shit.

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Response to alp227 (Original post)

Sat Feb 25, 2012, 05:33 PM

66. Riddle me this:

 

Why would they have to burn the books? That nonsense about the hidden messages was a joke.

Also, HOW did the Afghans find out about the burning?

This was done intentionally, either to distract from the other bullshit we're doing or to make Muslims look uncivilized and deserving of what we're doing! Bastards!

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Response to uranus is my home (Reply #66)

Sat Feb 25, 2012, 09:42 PM

72. Answers:

"Why would they have to burn the books? "

Because unwanted trash gets burned. The books were considered trash.

"HOW did the Afghans find out about the burning? "

Afghan contractors who were doing the burning recognized the books, pulled them out of the fire, and made the issue public.

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Response to alp227 (Original post)

Sat Feb 25, 2012, 05:53 PM

67. Symbols

Books, flags, and swastikas....
If I am going to call flying the confederate flag and donning a swastika extremely offensive, why is it so unreasonable to accept that the symbolism attached to a religious text is important enough to some people as to inspire rage?

This shouldn't be so difficult. Words are symbols and most of us don't drop F bombs around grandma.
Obama did the right thing by recognizing that an important symbol should be respected. For some in a country that has been at war for decades either with us directly or because of us it may be the only security to cling to.

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Response to alp227 (Original post)

Sat Feb 25, 2012, 10:21 PM

73. I find these anti-American assumptions of bad intent disgusting.

I'm sure most Americans would throw away a damaged bible without a second thought. This was a cross-cultural screw-up being twisted by Islamists in order to stir up mobs.

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Response to Odin2005 (Reply #73)

Sun Feb 26, 2012, 08:36 AM

75. I completely agree.

A screw up, yes, but the reaction has been over the top. And it being a cultural difference doesn't make it right.

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Response to knowledgeispwr (Reply #75)

Sun Feb 26, 2012, 02:23 PM

80. true

I'd be surprised if the didn't riot.

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Response to Odin2005 (Reply #73)

Sun Feb 26, 2012, 10:11 AM

77. It's impossible to tell whether fanatical religion is a cause -or a result- of insanity but

 

they have virtually 100% correlation.

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Response to alp227 (Original post)

Sun Feb 26, 2012, 02:25 PM

81. ugh

The faster we leave that cesspool the better.

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Response to AndySipowicz (Reply #81)

Sun Feb 26, 2012, 08:50 PM

89. Amen (LOL)

Sorry... Couldn't resist...

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Response to alp227 (Original post)

Mon Feb 27, 2012, 08:01 AM

93. This is bullshit you creeps... you can't have it both ways...

Either you repugs are screaming that Obama's not Christian enough....

or you're insensed because he's doing something that reeks of Christian doctrine:
i.e., seeking forgiveness for offending another person, even if it was unintentional.

Do you want him tough and demanding, and unforgiving?

Or do you want him prostrate on the floor under the weight of
christian confession?

This is getting more and more ridiculous.

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Response to alp227 (Original post)

Mon Feb 27, 2012, 01:55 PM

95. Their fundies go beserk because we burn a book

Our fundies go beserk because the President stated (in effect) that a woman's right to healthcare trumps religious dogma.



Can't help but think that the world would be much better off without fundies of any stripe.

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