5 dead in shooting at health spa outside Atlanta

Just another night in America

At least the stats say so.

I don't believe it's happening less and less. That kind of story no longer shocks anyone.

Now, pretty much all of them make the nightly news. Because, well, they actually fit now. The numbers have been trending down for some time now.

I'll bet not one of you recalls the story of Brenda Spencer, who in 1979 opened fire on a San Diego schoolyard, killing two and wounding five. "I don't like Mondays," she later explained.

A story like that today would have been broadcast twenty-four hours a day for a week and seared into our national conscience.

In 1979, it made the middle pages of the A section for one day.

The story was, however, carried in international papers through UPI, where the Boomtown Rats read about it and wrote a song about the incident.

the bit about "carried in international papers", anyway; Bob Geldof was in the studio at WRAS in Atlanta...the student radio station of Georgia State University...when the story came in over the teletype, and he sat down and wrote the song then and there.

having someone write a song about you that is played endlessly and forever on pop radio will keep you forever in the public mind

the killers of today don't stop and think that they are just "me too's" and that no one gives a damn enough to sing about them

spencer i thought killed 5 people and got famous, the spa dude kills 5 people and will be forgotten tomorrow because there will be a new and more colorful killer tomorrow and every day thereafter and forever after that!

mass murder is no longer interesting, charles whitman, brenda spencer and the rest got in on the ground floor...the wanna-be's are just pathetic no matter how many they kill on the road to fame

how many did that guy at virginia tech kill? 30 or 40 and yet who remembers his name now? there have been too many mass killers, who bothers to remember their names any more, we've turned off that functionality

early adopters get the glory even if they're fuck-ups like spencer, but if you get in on the game too late it doesn't matter if you're the high achiever -- the funny thing is, you are probably right that she only succeeded in killing 2, her claim to fame is not being a great mass murderer but that she did it while it was still cool instead of something that some bored no-hoper loser did every day of the week...killing is for losers now, any glory attached to it is long gone

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/preliminary-annual-ucr-jan-jun-2011/data-tables/table-3



These are actual crime stats from the DoJ. All crime has been trending down for some time. Thats why I said I can understand how it seems that its happening more, when in fact it is happening less. Its just being publicized more.

Being aware of the factual situation helps prevent the passage of unnecessary and dangerous laws. We should strive to legislate on facts, not emotion.

Guns in the hands of the public.

Bad, bad idea.

Seems like a good idea, but it's not.

For several years now and are at the lowest levels in decades. Take into account that gun ownership has skyrocketed during the same time, the facts disagree with your premise.

Tell that to their families.

It really doesn't matter how "low" the "gun crime stats" are when you or a family member or loved one is lying in the morgue.

Of course, any compassion for the innocents that found themselves at the business end of someone else's gun is considered weak or "collateral damage" to the NRA/gun nuts here.

because they had access to legal guns for personal defense.


It may not matter to the families of these people, but the stats DO matter when creating legislation that affects EVERYONE, and as the crime rate, and homicide rates are dropping like rocks in water, MORE restrictive gun laws are obviously NOT what is working.

But you go ahead and cling to your emotional response, ignore reality, and keep beating that special pleading fallacy that the Brady/gun grabbers love so much.


Reality, facts, and logical responses. You should try it some time.

Considering the fact we know that there was someone present with a firearm at at least two of the largest spree shootings of the past several years (Columbine, Arizona,) your insistence that the dead were "saved" is a joke.

>keep beating that special pleading fallacy that the Brady/gun grabbers love so much.<

You seem to have a special affinity for RW/NRA talking points, don't you? Color me SHOCKED.

>Reality, facts, and logical responses. You should try it some time.<

Here's some "reality, facts, and logical responses" for you. Five people are now dead that weren't 24 hours ago, because of someone's deadly little toy. Two people were shot to death in a parking lot in Seattle's Central District last night as well. They join the male that was shot to death by Woodland Park Zoo in Seattle the night before.

Reality: They're dead. Fact: They're dead because someone else chose to solve their "problems" at gunpoint. Logical response: To the gun nuts/NRA supporters, they (and the grief of their family members and friends) are nothing more than collateral damage.

It's an odd thing Stalin once wrote: "One death is a tragedy, one million deaths is a statistic" as it seems to be both valid and applicable. There appear to be so many who will cite statistics as though they are precious salt for the wounds of the victims.

I can only agree with you that in the here and now, your implication that personal tragedies are little more than collateral damage is the only relevant truth for far too many.

The CPL holder in Arizona wasn't within viewing distance of the shooting. It was over by the time he got out of the store. If he'd been in the front row of the audience, things may have turned out differently. That's just random chance.

Don't act stupid. You know this fact as well as I do. They chased Klebold and Harris, and could not manage to bring them down.

Bullshit on your insistence that "things may have turned out differently" if your precious CPL holder was in the "front row" at Arizona. Even more people would have gotten shot.

I have never before heard the claim that two police officers tried to engage Harris or Klebold inside the school, prior to their suicide.


On your contention about Arizona, I can cite incidents where such scenarios occurred, and the non-law-enforcement CPL holder returned fire WITHOUT hitting anyone else. You show me yours, and I'll show you mine.

The fact there were two armed LEO in Columbine High School during Klebold and Harris' rampage, and the officers in question failed to bring them down, was widely reported in mass media.

Believe it or not. I really don't give a shit. Mostly, I'm sick of the same bullshit arguments about "CPL/CCW carriers" and their miraculous abilities to "return fire" without anyone else getting hurt.

FACT: I have never known a person with a CCW that could not resist showing off the gun/brandishing the gun/using it to frighten or intimidate. We avoid them like the plague.

"Two LEO were inside the building at Columbine
Don't act stupid. You know this fact as well as I do. They chased Klebold and Harris, and could not manage to bring them down."


No, actually, SRO Neil Gardner exchanged gunfire with Harris outside the building (by the by, hitting no bystanders) and did not pursue him inside the school. Gardner was eating lunch in his patrol car, at the far end of the building when it started. That was one of the main, problematic findings of the governor's report on the whole mess: they set up a perimeter, and did not engage and pursue the shooters. The main force of non-SWAT officers arrived minutes later, none of them pursuing the suspects into the building until after the two suspects were already dead.

When you fire a fucking pistol, from 60 yards away, at a person shooting back at you, you are pretty damn likely to miss.

Likewise for Deputy Paul Smoker and two other Denver officers that fired at the pair FROM OUTSIDE the building, while the suspects returned fire from a window.

Maybe you should calm down a bit and check your facts, before you go off on someone, when you are wrong. The SRO's didn't go inside, and didn't pursue. Their only contact with the shooters was at range that you pretty much can't expect a hit with a pistol anyway, under combat conditions. Most people are hard pressed to score a lethal hit on a FULL SIZED human silouette at 25 yards. These officers had a slight advantage over the CPL holder in Arizona, in that they could SEE someone to shoot at, but they did not pursue, as it was against department policy, they didn't hit their targets, didn't go inside after them, and also, contrary to your assumption, didn't hit any bystanders, even though they opened fire on suspects who were standing in front of an inhabited school.

http://www.state.co.us/columbine/Columbine_20Report_WEB.pdf

Now that we've cleared that up.

I promised you two CPL holder's saving lives.

Mark Allen Wilson, armed only with a handgun, engaged a shooter with a rifle on the Tyler, Tx courthouse steps. He stopped the shooter from murdering his own son. Unfortunately the shooter was wearing a bullet proof vest and flak jacket, so he was not killed. He returned fire at Wilson, and the two were engaged long enough for more officers to arrive on scene. Wilson was killed. One life, or more, saved. (Posthumous congressional commendation)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyler_courthouse_shooting

A local (for me) shooting at the Tacoma mall. Brandon Mckown confronted the shooter, Maldonado, with his pistol at low-ready, and ordered him to drop his rifle. (McKown probably should have just shot him on sight, he was behind the curve already, with a pistol against a rifle) Maldonado opted to gun down Mckown instead, having the advantage of not giving a shit about human life, and just blazing away. The encounter delayed Maldonado, no one else was shot during the rampage, after McKown opposed him. Another CPL holder was in the mall as well, but did not fire, because he didn't have a clear shot.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacoma_mall_shooting

By all means, proffer up some supporting evidence for your bullshit meme of CPL holders gunning down innocents in returning fire. I'll wait.

I don't know what CPL holders you know 'intimidating' or 'brandishing' as you claim, I don't know a single license holder that doesn't know damn well that we are held to a higher standard than joe citizen, and we don't fuck around playing show and tell. As you can see from my above examples, we can and have had positive impacts on active shooter situations, rarely if ever make the situation worse, and some have paid the ultimate price doing it.

There are of course, better examples of active shooters being reduced to room temp by CPL holders, but I think these two examples really put the lie to your meme about empty bravado, recklessness, etc. These guys went up against very bad odds, likely to lose, and one dead, the other crippled for life, they still made a very positive impact on the situation.

You'll be waiting a long time as the poster you're responding to had a post hidden below and so literally can't respond.

While you're waiting though:



Enjoy.

BTW: "and we don't fuck around playing show and tell." - that girl who was shot in the head in a church in Florida by a licensed CCW holder showing off his gun in a small room next door: http://www.tampabay.com/news/publicsafety/young-woman-shot-in-head-at-st-petersburg-church-dies/1216059 -

Nor does a hidden message in the thread prevent response to my post, unless there is something new in DU3 that I haven't noticed yet.

Yeah, actually it does prevent response.

(I presume CleanHippie responded to MissVixen downthread before his upthread post was hidden?)

It's unfortunate you don't recognize any other "facts" besides your own.



By the way, which part of my facts are "emotional"? The fact five people are dead in Georgia, due to being shot with a gun? There are three more dead people in Seattle in the past 72 hours, due to being shot by a gun?

Go ahead. I can't wait to hear your justification.

The FBI UCR stats ARE facts. Indisputable facts.

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/preliminary-annual-ucr-jan-jun-2011/data-tables/table-3


Fell free to post your own facts, but do try and refrain from referring to anecdotal evidence as proof of anything.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anecdotal_evidence#Anecdotal_evidence_and_faulty_logic

This is probably 3 miles from my house. I am out of town right now or I would give you a first person account of the incidence.

It's not a workout type place, per the net reviews, anyway.

At least according to YELP, for what that is worth: http://www.yelp.com/biz/sujung-beauty-health-and-sauna-norcross

Su Jung Health Sauna.

Su Jung?

How Jung are they?

http://www.cruisinggays.com/norcross/bathhouses/39241-su-jung-beauty-spa/

People are dead because of some madman with a gun, and you and others have to focus on this?

Even if it is a "happy ending" massage place - what bearing does that have on the story? Do those who frequent these types of establishments somehow bring it upon themselves?

Organized crime, human trafficking, and the potential for violence (if it is an HE place).

We are going to drown in euphemisms.

It ain't exactly the Girl Scouts...I'm not saying it's mob related, but it is a relevant question...

It is not an "Asian Massage" place.