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ellisonz

(27,706 posts)
Fri Feb 17, 2012, 06:46 AM Feb 2012

'No More Weapons!' billboard placed on US border

Last edited Fri Feb 17, 2012, 03:50 PM - Edit history (1)

By RICARDO CHAVEZ | Associated Press – 5 hrs ago

CIUDAD JUAREZ, Mexico (AP) — President Felipe Calderon on Thursday unveiled a "No More Weapons!" billboard made with crushed firearms and placed near the U.S. border. He urged the United States to stop the flow of weapons into Mexico.

The billboard, which is in English and weighs 3 tons, was placed near an international bridge in Ciudad Juarez and can be seen from the United States.

Calderon said the billboard's letters were made with weapons seized by local, state and federal authorities.

---------

Before unveiling the billboard, Calderon supervised the destruction of more than 7,500 automatic rifles and handguns at a military base in Ciudad Juarez.

More: http://news.yahoo.com/no-more-weapons-billboard-placed-us-border-053553960.html

(Note to hosts, I think this constitutes "really big news" and is of national interest because it involves the President of Mexico and the U.S. border)
122 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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'No More Weapons!' billboard placed on US border (Original Post) ellisonz Feb 2012 OP
Tell them to quit buying them ?? OneTenthofOnePercent Feb 2012 #1
Typical NRA talking points; greiner3 Feb 2012 #6
NRA talking points? OneTenthofOnePercent Feb 2012 #9
"And I live I Ohio" sudopod Feb 2012 #16
The fastest way to deal with both problems... krispos42 Feb 2012 #21
Yes, this IS sound reasoning duhneece Feb 2012 #43
Oh, yeah, that's sound reasoning. harmonicon Feb 2012 #7
Let me clarify.. OneTenthofOnePercent Feb 2012 #11
Do you even read what you write? izquierdista Feb 2012 #13
+1 madokie Feb 2012 #65
Speaking of logic... is there a gun law on the books that we have not begun to enforce? aikoaiko Feb 2012 #67
"...Calderon supervised the destruction of more than 7,500 automatic rifles and handguns..." PavePusher Feb 2012 #2
Language fail. boppers Feb 2012 #58
Sorry, but in the technical (and legally VERY specific) language for firearms... PavePusher Feb 2012 #72
Pregnant. boppers Feb 2012 #76
I'm starting to think you are being intentionally obtuse and disingenuous. PavePusher Feb 2012 #78
Well there is some linguistic game play afoot. boppers Feb 2012 #84
No, in the legal sense of the BATFE, who take a very dim view of unregistered automatic firearms. PavePusher Feb 2012 #86
There is no such thing as an "automatic semi-auto"???? boppers Feb 2012 #88
Your post does not even address my statement. PavePusher Feb 2012 #89
From that link: boppers Feb 2012 #102
You specifically mentioned hand-cranks. A hand-crank activated firearm is not classified... PavePusher Feb 2012 #107
Sure, put a person who lost their hand, and now has an "assist" arm, at the crank. boppers Feb 2012 #110
You are correct on the the "many" vs. "more than one"... PavePusher Feb 2012 #113
It's pretty much the same point as the AWB rules. boppers Feb 2012 #116
This message was self-deleted by its author AlecBGreen Feb 2012 #94
Well, that was an amusing mental jump. boppers Feb 2012 #109
"(Not to hosts, I think this constitutes "really big news"" PavePusher Feb 2012 #3
Facsinating how such "really big news" couldn't be bothered to have a picture. PavePusher Feb 2012 #4
The El Paso Times has a picture of the billboard happyslug Feb 2012 #5
Thank you. ellisonz Feb 2012 #33
I'll have to go see it duhneece Feb 2012 #44
We even got a picture of the sign/guns in the tulsa world newspaper this morning madokie Feb 2012 #66
This ongoing tragedy lies at the feet of the weapons industry, the weapons lobby, baldguy Feb 2012 #8
The last time I checked the US had over 20,000 gun laws.n/t Johnson20 Feb 2012 #22
Which "responsable gun owners" can avoid by simply crossing an imaginary line on a map. baldguy Feb 2012 #30
Explain this claim, please. n/t PavePusher Feb 2012 #35
57 hours, no response. Figures. n/t PavePusher Feb 2012 #91
Automatic weapons have been highly regulated for decades Taitertots Feb 2012 #36
I can buy one at Wal-Mart. boppers Feb 2012 #59
You can't buy automatic weapons at Walmart Taitertots Feb 2012 #64
You can buy automatic weapons of the semi automatic variety. eom boppers Feb 2012 #74
Semi-automatic =/= Automatic, your statement is non-sequitur Taitertots Feb 2012 #79
Semiautomatics "are highly regulated in the US"? boppers Feb 2012 #105
FBI background checks, 1968 GCA, prohibited people, import restrictions, sales restrictions..... Taitertots Feb 2012 #118
What an silly statement to make. Oh well, yeah can't fix stupid.n/t Johnson20 Feb 2012 #81
freedictionary.com is your friend AlecBGreen Feb 2012 #95
3 shot burst = full automatic, legally boppers Feb 2012 #103
"Interpreting the sign as an indication of shortage, US manufacturers raced to meet demand...." Robb Feb 2012 #10
LOL - DUZY right there! n/t OneTenthofOnePercent Feb 2012 #12
hahahaha... Good job! octothorpe Feb 2012 #80
How are these weapons getting across the border? Lasher Feb 2012 #14
7,500 automatic rifles could not possibly have been smuggled from the US into Mexico slackmaster Feb 2012 #18
Why not? Incitatus Feb 2012 #26
Maybe you don't know it minavasht Feb 2012 #29
Wrong. boppers Feb 2012 #61
My friend minavasht Feb 2012 #82
You are not a gunsmith, are you? boppers Feb 2012 #85
As a matter of fact I am minavasht Feb 2012 #99
...Then you should know about selective fire systems. boppers Feb 2012 #104
They're tightly regulated, registered, and the supply is very limited slackmaster Feb 2012 #40
You're talking about machine guns. boppers Feb 2012 #62
Using the term "automatic" to describe a semi-automatic rifle is a cheap propaganda ploy slackmaster Feb 2012 #69
Using the term "automatic" to describe only a full-automatic rifle is a cheap propaganda ploy boppers Feb 2012 #75
So it becomes clear minavasht Feb 2012 #83
I own rifles and pistols. boppers Feb 2012 #87
Do they even make 3-round clips for Garands? PavePusher Feb 2012 #90
This is not an answer to my question. minavasht Feb 2012 #100
No-if-you-limit-reload-times-instead boppers Feb 2012 #101
Illumination trumps obfuscation slackmaster Feb 2012 #96
For one thing it would represent about 75 MILLION dollars worth of firearms. Atypical Liberal Feb 2012 #47
"Auto" or "Semi-Auto" -- makes little difference. One can kill a lot of folks with either. Hoyt Feb 2012 #48
+1 ellisonz Feb 2012 #49
Actually it makes a world of difference if you're talking about where the weapons came from. Kurska Feb 2012 #51
It does when the narcos here are using full auto, grenades and rockrt launchers.nt expatriate2mex Feb 2012 #54
I beg your pardon but there is a huge distinction between semi-auto and full auto. Lasher Feb 2012 #55
I beg yours. You can kill plenty of innocent folks with semi-auto. Hoyt Feb 2012 #57
And you can kill plenty of innocent folks with a car. Is a car a machine gun? Lasher Feb 2012 #60
It indicates ignorance or deceit on the part of the reporter. Atypical Liberal Feb 2012 #77
Hanlon's Razor. eom boppers Feb 2012 #106
Except we know that this confusion has been intentionally fostered. Atypical Liberal Feb 2012 #120
Sounds like a jobs killing bid DUIC Feb 2012 #15
Please tell me you are being sarcastic Kolesar Feb 2012 #17
Partially DUIC Feb 2012 #19
And of course... ellisonz Feb 2012 #34
It sounds and looks cool minavasht Feb 2012 #20
but...but...but we have been told by Gun Luvers that thar ain't no gun running to Mexico jpak Feb 2012 #23
'Argument from authority' is acceptable if you agree with the authority? friendly_iconoclast Feb 2012 #27
The fact of "guns in Mexico" montanto Feb 2012 #38
Yeah - them traceable serial numbers that go back to Texas gun shops is a gummit conspiracy! jpak Feb 2012 #39
or - more likely - the traceable serial numbers that go back to the Mexican military and police DUIC Feb 2012 #42
Bingo!!!! They are using full auto weapons plus grenades and rocket launchers here. expatriate2mex Feb 2012 #53
Some came stolen from the Mexican authorities...but EX500rider Feb 2012 #70
Sure, I am sure some are coming from south of us. Full autos, expatriate2mex Feb 2012 #71
The weapons in question are automatic, there is no way in hell the majority of them came from Kurska Feb 2012 #50
More important than the price, you require a Federal Firearms License to buy or own one. Lasher Feb 2012 #56
Again with the qualifiers. boppers Feb 2012 #63
And then see my response to it. n/t PavePusher Feb 2012 #73
Not true. We've been saying that gun restrictionists are fibbing about the amount of gun running. aikoaiko Feb 2012 #68
Should we put up a "No More Drugs" sign opposite theirs? Incitatus Feb 2012 #24
You mean things entering into Mexico, illegally, are causing issues down there? Dreamer Tatum Feb 2012 #25
Stop sending us drugs then. Kurska Feb 2012 #28
What a pendejo! To do what he asks would mean to stop arming his Policía Federal. aikoaiko Feb 2012 #31
Or smuggled over by the ATF!!! Johnson20 Feb 2012 #46
Mexico would be a crime-free utopia if it weren't for the U.S Dr_Scholl Feb 2012 #32
Perhaps Mexico could have provided a list of make/model/serial numbers of those guns..... PavePusher Feb 2012 #37
+1000. Show me the serial #s as well or stfu. Johnson20 Feb 2012 #41
We should put up one that says, "No More Drugs!" Atypical Liberal Feb 2012 #45
I can tell you right now that the weapons expatriate2mex Feb 2012 #52
That's funny, I thought guns were supposed to make society SAFER Hugabear Feb 2012 #92
Crime levels are lower in the U.S. and have trended that way for some time. PavePusher Feb 2012 #93
How diifficult is it to convert a semi-automatic AK-47 knock-off to full auto? Comrade Grumpy Feb 2012 #97
Very hard hack89 Feb 2012 #98
Very hard... how? boppers Feb 2012 #111
Automatic rifles are regulated at the component level hack89 Feb 2012 #112
A whole.... day! You don't say. boppers Feb 2012 #115
By a skilled machinest. With expensive tools hack89 Feb 2012 #117
Have you ever read one of those manuals? Dr_Scholl Feb 2012 #121
63K, over how many years? I'd bet more cars get taken over illegally. n/t PavePusher Feb 2012 #108
I'm not sure over how many years, whether it's since 2005 or 2007 or what. Comrade Grumpy Feb 2012 #114
Not all those weapons were seized from cartel affiliates. PavePusher Feb 2012 #119
I imagine a sign reading "No more weapons" would indeed LanternWaste Feb 2012 #122
 

OneTenthofOnePercent

(6,268 posts)
1. Tell them to quit buying them ??
Fri Feb 17, 2012, 08:13 AM
Feb 2012


It'd be like America saying, "Quit sending us weed." It's not the country exporting undesirable/illegal goods is the one to blame. If there was no one on the other end paying for the ilegal stuff... there'd be no reason to supply it. Besides, neither country is condoning the export of their illegal contraband and it's already against the law. How do you get crmiinals to respect the laws!?!

By the way, I don't see how the destruction of 7500 automatic weapons is relevent. You can't walk into gunstores and just buy cheap automatic weapons. It's been ILLEGAL for Americans to buy new automatic assault rifles or machine guns since 1986. If tey're dealing with machine guns and assault rifles... they either came from another country or were taken from US/Mexican military bases.
 

greiner3

(5,214 posts)
6. Typical NRA talking points;
Fri Feb 17, 2012, 09:08 AM
Feb 2012

I tend to agree if there is a market someone will buy the arms.

However, the flow of illegal guns into Mexico is not as simple NOR as deadly as "Quit sending us weed." (slogans which show just how callous NRA members are).

The violence in Cuidad Juarez is horrific. It has begun spilling over into El Paso (the US if you did not pass high school geography).

After rereading your post I began to wonder if you too are profiting from the sale of illegal and mass importation of illegal weapons into Mexico.

 

OneTenthofOnePercent

(6,268 posts)
9. NRA talking points?
Fri Feb 17, 2012, 09:27 AM
Feb 2012

Firstly, I'm not a member of the NRA. I'm unaware of their talking points.
And I live I Ohio... boy, that illegal mexican arms trade is just booming up here.
Thus far, you're 0-2 with your assumptions.

Secondly, dismissing a point by associating it with an (apparently undesirable) organization else hardly refutes it. The fact still remains (aside from such association) that it is illegal to export firearms to another country without proper government licenses and it is illegal to sell a firearm to a forign citizen. Furthermore, as referenced in the OP article, "automatic rifles" are likely no coming fro US gun shops. All of these things Calderon is complaining about are already against the law... what more does he expect? Write more laws an the criminals will just be breaking more laws.

And it really is no different than the mexican drug trade. One country selling illegal goods to another country via the black market. The best any country can do is effectively police it's own side of the border. Which is what my original reply title suggests: "Tell them to quit buying them."

krispos42

(49,445 posts)
21. The fastest way to deal with both problems...
Fri Feb 17, 2012, 01:41 PM
Feb 2012

...is to legalize weed and coke.

The benefits would begin immediately and be far more effective than any other method that I can think of.

duhneece

(4,093 posts)
43. Yes, this IS sound reasoning
Fri Feb 17, 2012, 05:08 PM
Feb 2012

The vast majority of violence of our alcohol prohibiton ended when we ended alcohol prohibition. The reason you don't see Bud and Coors producers and distributers shooting it out and killing each other is because of well-designed regulations.

Drugs are bad, but the drug war is worse.

Nations that don't simply criminalize drug users have nations with reduced drug use rates. See Portugal and the Netherlands drug use policies for two options.

harmonicon

(12,008 posts)
7. Oh, yeah, that's sound reasoning.
Fri Feb 17, 2012, 09:15 AM
Feb 2012

Are hit men not responsible for murders they commit? They wouldn't have done it if there weren't a market for it, so they're completely innocent, right?

And why do we have child labour laws? If kids don't want to work, they shouldn't apply for the jobs, right?

 

OneTenthofOnePercent

(6,268 posts)
11. Let me clarify..
Fri Feb 17, 2012, 09:35 AM
Feb 2012

I'm just saying that it is illegal to export firearms to another country without proper government licenses and it is illegal to sell a firearm to a foreign citizen. Furthermore, as referenced in the OP article, "automatic rifles" are likely no coming fro US gun shops. All of these things Calderon is complaining about are already against the law here in America... what more does he expect? Write more laws an the criminals will just be breaking more laws.

The best any country can do is effectively police it's own side of the border. Which is what my original reply title suggests: "Tell them to quit buying them." I'm not saying that the people committing these crimes are not to blame... I'm just pointing out that Calderon seems all to eager to pass the buck on this issue when he should be focusing o his side of the fence. It's not America's fault that Calderon's police and government are some of the most corrupt organizations on the planet.

 

izquierdista

(11,689 posts)
13. Do you even read what you write?
Fri Feb 17, 2012, 10:05 AM
Feb 2012

Read the first sentence from your first paragraph. Then read the first sentence from your second paragraph. Now connect them with a logical deduction like "Yes, the U.S. should start enforcing the laws that are on the books."

Once you get the idea of logical deduction down, we'll move on to distinguishing contractions from the possessive.

aikoaiko

(34,113 posts)
67. Speaking of logic... is there a gun law on the books that we have not begun to enforce?
Sat Feb 18, 2012, 10:16 AM
Feb 2012

I don't know of a single gun law that we haven't started to enforce. Is that all you wish? To start enforcing a law? Which law?

I would think that we need to enforce the laws more, completely, or in every incident possible. But hey, you are the master of logic and grammar, or the master of something else.


 

PavePusher

(15,374 posts)
2. "...Calderon supervised the destruction of more than 7,500 automatic rifles and handguns..."
Fri Feb 17, 2012, 08:40 AM
Feb 2012

If the rest of the article is as factual as this, it's not even worthy as low-grade bovine extract agricultural supplement.

Phale.

boppers

(16,588 posts)
58. Language fail.
Sat Feb 18, 2012, 02:45 AM
Feb 2012

Were these bolt weapons? Revolvers? No.

They were automatics. Many were probably semi-automatics, some may have been full automatics, but almost all were likely automatic weapons.

 

PavePusher

(15,374 posts)
72. Sorry, but in the technical (and legally VERY specific) language for firearms...
Sat Feb 18, 2012, 03:57 PM
Feb 2012

"automatic"=/="semi-automatic".

And the legal penalties for conflating the two even momentarily IRL are quite severe.

If only the penalties for shit reporting were as harsh.....

boppers

(16,588 posts)
76. Pregnant.
Sun Feb 19, 2012, 06:52 AM
Feb 2012

Semi-pregnant.
Full-pregnant.

Both are pregnant.

Either it is somehow an automatic weapon, or not. Most semi's are automated in some way. No manual reload, no levers to pull, no chamber to clear manually between each shot.

 

PavePusher

(15,374 posts)
78. I'm starting to think you are being intentionally obtuse and disingenuous.
Sun Feb 19, 2012, 11:46 AM
Feb 2012

In legal and colloquial terms, an "automatic" firearm is one that is "fully automatic", i.e. it continues to fire as long as the trigger remains actuated and there is ammunition to feed.

"semi-automatic" means the gun will fire one, and only one, round of ammunition for any activation of the trigger.

Conflating the two in any way is legally dangerous and ethically/morally dishonest. Doing so intentionally can only be intended to get someone detained by the government for long periods of time and have them deprived of financial and material property and/or to confuse people not educated on the subject, in order to dishonestly bias their opinions.

What are your motives for your conflation and why are you doing it here?

boppers

(16,588 posts)
84. Well there is some linguistic game play afoot.
Mon Feb 20, 2012, 12:20 AM
Feb 2012

In *your* legal and colloquial terms, an "automatic" firearm is one that is "fully automatic".

"Doing so intentionally can only be intended to get someone detained by the government for long periods of time and have them deprived of financial and material property and/or to confuse people not educated on the subject, in order to dishonestly bias their opinions. "

Uhm, no. But maybe a tinfoil hat will help.

 

PavePusher

(15,374 posts)
86. No, in the legal sense of the BATFE, who take a very dim view of unregistered automatic firearms.
Mon Feb 20, 2012, 12:31 AM
Feb 2012

If by "linguistic game play", you mean risk of a federal prison sentence, we ain't playin', chum.

There is no such thing as an "automatic semi-auto". Unless you can cite to a reputable source outside your own creation.

boppers

(16,588 posts)
88. There is no such thing as an "automatic semi-auto"????
Mon Feb 20, 2012, 12:39 AM
Feb 2012

Wow, did you know that the first Gatling guns were crank based? Did you know you can buy crank triggers for any "semi"?

I am guessing that you are not ignorant, and know full well that the distinction is an artificiality.

 

PavePusher

(15,374 posts)
89. Your post does not even address my statement.
Mon Feb 20, 2012, 12:42 AM
Feb 2012

I suggest you do some reading here: http://www.atf.gov/firearms/guides/importation-verification/firearms-verification-nfa-machinegun.html

Hand-crank Gatlings are not considered "automatic" firearms under the law and are not regulated as such.

boppers

(16,588 posts)
102. From that link:
Tue Feb 21, 2012, 07:44 AM
Feb 2012

"a comprehensive examination of the firearm and/or its component parts is required to correctly determine its classification"

Modern Gatling guns use electrical motors to crank.

 

PavePusher

(15,374 posts)
107. You specifically mentioned hand-cranks. A hand-crank activated firearm is not classified...
Tue Feb 21, 2012, 08:43 AM
Feb 2012

as a machine gun. Unless you can find an example of one. The portion of the quote you left off: "Due to the similarity in appearance and general configuration of semiautomatic firearms,..." A hand-crank gatling can't be readily confused with any other semi-auto firearm, or any full-auto firearm. You are attempting to move the goal posts. Put 'em down and rest your back a bit.

Yes, an electrically operated gatling qualifies as a machine gun, please refer back to the single-trigger-activation/many-rounds determination.

And, for the record, I used to help maintain them on combat aircraft.

boppers

(16,588 posts)
110. Sure, put a person who lost their hand, and now has an "assist" arm, at the crank.
Tue Feb 21, 2012, 09:13 AM
Feb 2012

When your "arm" is electronic, the boundaries get messy. It was based on (I forget the wording) something like individual human action. Automate humans, though, and a new question needs to be resolved.

Human/machine is the wrong place to manage the boundaries, as humans become more and more machine....

And yes, we (the US) seem to have drawn the line, legally, not at "many" rounds, but "more than one" per trigger pull. Two rounds per pull=machine gun. One round per pull, but automating a pull: Not a machine gun. (And don't even get me started about double trigger, double barrel, shotguns, which are one looong pull).

It's the wrong place to draw a line. Two .22 bitty slugs are not the same as two .50 cal thumpers. Rounds per pull is totally non-sensical.

 

PavePusher

(15,374 posts)
113. You are correct on the the "many" vs. "more than one"...
Tue Feb 21, 2012, 10:51 AM
Feb 2012

I got a little sloppy with my own wording there.

As far as a prosthetic arm.... you're really... ummmm... streching... the point here. ba-da boomp.

boppers

(16,588 posts)
116. It's pretty much the same point as the AWB rules.
Tue Feb 21, 2012, 03:11 PM
Feb 2012

Rules made for the sake of the rules are silly... legislate firepower, not mechanisms, not aesthetics

Response to boppers (Reply #84)

boppers

(16,588 posts)
109. Well, that was an amusing mental jump.
Tue Feb 21, 2012, 08:59 AM
Feb 2012

So, is a burst fire weapon automatic? Your definition says no.

Is a rechambering weapon... automatic in some way?

"In legal and colloquial terms" in your head, and in my head, are different places. They are also different places in the law.

"can only be intended to get someone detained by the government"

Well, that's a mighty limited view of the world. Perhaps thinking about one's use of words, and the history of weapon design, and ways of evading laws about weapon design, are possibilities you had not considered.

Do you know what a "Hellfire" is?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellfire_trigger

I get it, really, I do.

Smug gun owners complain about "ignorance", and claim that a source is bad if it does not use the boutique phrasing found in gun culture. So, since I'm spanning both cultures, let me explain it to you, as the non-gun folks, that I know, see it:
Non-automatic weapon: Each round is loaded separately, manually. Rate of fire is maybe 2-3 per second at maximum, as slow as 3 per minute with revolutionary war weapons, as fast as five in three seconds with a bolt action weapon, and single-action revolvers (in the hand of speed shooters) push the limits.
Automatic weapon: Rounds are automatically loaded. Rate of fire is easily 10 per second up to 300/500 per second with gunpowder, and a metalstorm can send 1800 rounds downrange in a single second.

This is not just a terminology debate, it's an awareness debate. It's not just "Ha ha, people who don't know guns used a word differently", it's also "Dayum, I am superior to these people, because of the way I use a word" issue.

A semi-automatic is, in part, automatic. It's in the word pairing.

 

PavePusher

(15,374 posts)
4. Facsinating how such "really big news" couldn't be bothered to have a picture.
Fri Feb 17, 2012, 08:43 AM
Feb 2012

Par for the course for crap reporting, I suppose.

 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
5. The El Paso Times has a picture of the billboard
Fri Feb 17, 2012, 08:51 AM
Feb 2012
http://www.elpasotimes.com/news/ci_19983474?source=rss



All the other news sources seem to be citing AP, AP seems to have cited the El Paso Times, but did not copy the photo so no one but El Paso times has the Photo.

duhneece

(4,093 posts)
44. I'll have to go see it
Fri Feb 17, 2012, 05:12 PM
Feb 2012

I wish I'd known about this. Next week is another forum/border conference in El Paso. Any DU
'ers going?

madokie

(51,076 posts)
66. We even got a picture of the sign/guns in the tulsa world newspaper this morning
Sat Feb 18, 2012, 09:45 AM
Feb 2012

Personally I don't like guns and don't own any but I'm tolerant of those who do and I have no intention of ever siding with the anti gun crowd. Early in my adult life I seen what GUNs can do to People and Things and when I got home mostly in one piece I decided that I don't want anything more to do with guns. Plus I'm a guy while in high school used to design gun stocks and built a few for some friends but those days are gone.

 

baldguy

(36,649 posts)
8. This ongoing tragedy lies at the feet of the weapons industry, the weapons lobby,
Fri Feb 17, 2012, 09:23 AM
Feb 2012

and irresponsible gun owners who demand that the US has inadequate or non-existent gun control laws.

 

Taitertots

(7,745 posts)
36. Automatic weapons have been highly regulated for decades
Fri Feb 17, 2012, 03:48 PM
Feb 2012

Owning and selling guns has been highly regulated for decades.

 

Taitertots

(7,745 posts)
64. You can't buy automatic weapons at Walmart
Sat Feb 18, 2012, 09:14 AM
Feb 2012

The sale of semi-automatic weapons by Walmart is highly regulated. Your post is more or less a non-sequitur response to my post.

 

Taitertots

(7,745 posts)
79. Semi-automatic =/= Automatic, your statement is non-sequitur
Sun Feb 19, 2012, 12:51 PM
Feb 2012

Semiautomatic is not a variety of automatic.

Either way, both are highly regulated in the US.

boppers

(16,588 posts)
105. Semiautomatics "are highly regulated in the US"?
Tue Feb 21, 2012, 08:00 AM
Feb 2012


Let me know when it's harder to get a driver's license. There is no proficiency test in most western states to acquire a firearm, and no regular testing to verify ongoing legal awareness.
 

Taitertots

(7,745 posts)
118. FBI background checks, 1968 GCA, prohibited people, import restrictions, sales restrictions.....
Tue Feb 21, 2012, 07:36 PM
Feb 2012

"Let me know when it's harder to get a driver's license. There is no proficiency test in most western states to acquire a firearm, and no regular testing to verify ongoing legal awareness."
Ok, that doesn't mean they are not highly regulated. Proficiency test =/= highly regulated. There are hundreds of regulations of the sale and/or ownership of semi-automatic firearms. They are highly regulated.

AlecBGreen

(3,874 posts)
95. freedictionary.com is your friend
Mon Feb 20, 2012, 11:46 AM
Feb 2012

"automatic gun - a firearm that reloads itself and keeps firing until the trigger is released"

"semiautomatic firearm - an autoloader that fires only one shot at each pull of the trigger"

boppers

(16,588 posts)
103. 3 shot burst = full automatic, legally
Tue Feb 21, 2012, 07:49 AM
Feb 2012

However, it does not &quot keep) firing until the trigger is released"...

And when the trigger is a crank control, things get legally touchy.

 

slackmaster

(60,567 posts)
18. 7,500 automatic rifles could not possibly have been smuggled from the US into Mexico
Fri Feb 17, 2012, 11:56 AM
Feb 2012

They were either sold by the US government to the Mexican government, or imported illegally from somewhere other than the USA.

Incitatus

(5,317 posts)
26. Why not?
Fri Feb 17, 2012, 02:01 PM
Feb 2012

Not every vehicle/vessel going into Mexico from the US is searched.

The cartels can also be very persuasive when it comes to getting the compliance of authorities, especially in Mexico. They have a phrase "silver or lead". The meaning is self-explanatory.

minavasht

(413 posts)
29. Maybe you don't know it
Fri Feb 17, 2012, 02:22 PM
Feb 2012

but no new automatic weapons have been sold to civilians since 1986.

It is not an issue of controlling the border, it is a matter of availability.

There are about 250 000 machine guns owned by civilians in USA. They are very expensive - just for reference, a M16 runs around 20K - and very well guarded by their owners.

Trafficking semi-automatic guns from USA into Mexico is a problem, about 12-15% of the guns seized over there come from USA.
Trafficking full auto machine guns from USA into Mexico is not an issue.

boppers

(16,588 posts)
61. Wrong.
Sat Feb 18, 2012, 02:50 AM
Feb 2012

Wal-Mart, sells automatic weapons, baby. See #58.

Notice that even in your own post you differentiate between "automatic" and, "semi-automatic", and "full automatic".

minavasht

(413 posts)
82. My friend
Sun Feb 19, 2012, 06:23 PM
Feb 2012

It is evident that you don't understand what you are talking about.

Automatic weapons = full auto = machine guns. With one pull of the trigger they keep shooting until the magazine is empty. Those things in Walmart you can't buy.
Like previously mentioned, they are very expensive, and there are very few of them.

Semi-automatic weapons on the other hand require pilling the trigger for every shot.

There is a very big difference that you seem to miss entirely.

Have a nice day.

boppers

(16,588 posts)
85. You are not a gunsmith, are you?
Mon Feb 20, 2012, 12:28 AM
Feb 2012

I'm not sure what "pilling" is either.

Of course, if you were a gunsmith, you would know about self loading, about paper cartridges, about brass loading, and about what makes "automation" over the last 100 years.

boppers

(16,588 posts)
104. ...Then you should know about selective fire systems.
Tue Feb 21, 2012, 07:57 AM
Feb 2012

"With one pull of the trigger they keep shooting until the magazine is empty."

No, burst fire weapons do not work this way. They automate chambering, and firing, of one or more rounds, usually 1 round, three rounds, or as many as you have in the clip, for a trigger pull.

Not available at Wal-Mart, though.

 

slackmaster

(60,567 posts)
40. They're tightly regulated, registered, and the supply is very limited
Fri Feb 17, 2012, 04:27 PM
Feb 2012

Not a single new transferrable one has been sold in the USA since 1986.

 

slackmaster

(60,567 posts)
69. Using the term "automatic" to describe a semi-automatic rifle is a cheap propaganda ploy
Sat Feb 18, 2012, 11:21 AM
Feb 2012

Used by people who want to ban semi-automatic rifles.

boppers

(16,588 posts)
75. Using the term "automatic" to describe only a full-automatic rifle is a cheap propaganda ploy
Sun Feb 19, 2012, 06:46 AM
Feb 2012

Used by people who want to avoid bans on semi-automatic rifles.

boppers

(16,588 posts)
87. I own rifles and pistols.
Mon Feb 20, 2012, 12:32 AM
Feb 2012

I am in favor of a 3 shot clip.

Revolver, rifle, whatever...

3 shots.

Aim Well.

 

PavePusher

(15,374 posts)
90. Do they even make 3-round clips for Garands?
Mon Feb 20, 2012, 12:44 AM
Feb 2012

I'm pretty sure they don't for any other rifle I'm aware of.

There are some restricted-capacity magazines intended to comply with hunting laws for a variety of removeable-magazine-fed rifles.

And yes, the semantics are quite important in the eyes of the law.

minavasht

(413 posts)
100. This is not an answer to my question.
Tue Feb 21, 2012, 04:49 AM
Feb 2012

One more time, slowly:
D-o y-o-u w-a-n-t t-o b-a-n s-e-m-i-a-u-t-o r-i-f-l-e-s?

boppers

(16,588 posts)
101. No-if-you-limit-reload-times-instead
Tue Feb 21, 2012, 07:40 AM
Feb 2012

Last edited Tue Feb 21, 2012, 09:21 AM - Edit history (1)

It's not about the mechanics, it's about the speed of delivering lethal force. A modern semi is faster than a original Gatling gun.

So, don't ban based on the mechanics used, ban based on lethality, regardless of the machining used to get there. Focus on DPS (Damage Per Second, for non-gamers).

 

Atypical Liberal

(5,412 posts)
47. For one thing it would represent about 75 MILLION dollars worth of firearms.
Fri Feb 17, 2012, 05:41 PM
Feb 2012

If they really did crush 7,500 automatic weapons, which I doubt, then those are machine guns.

The cheapest machine gun you can legally purchase as a civilian in the United States costs about $10,000.

So assuming they were all the cheapest, you are talking about $75 million dollars worth of firearms.

This is pretty unlikely.

More likely the news article says "automatic" weapons when in fact they were probably semi-automatic weapons.

Kurska

(5,739 posts)
51. Actually it makes a world of difference if you're talking about where the weapons came from.
Fri Feb 17, 2012, 05:58 PM
Feb 2012

Which is what this article is about.

Lasher

(27,472 posts)
55. I beg your pardon but there is a huge distinction between semi-auto and full auto.
Sat Feb 18, 2012, 12:44 AM
Feb 2012

One can kill a lot of folks with an airplane too. That doesn't mean there is little difference between an airplane and a fully automatic machine gun.

Please don't try to justify the hyperbole.

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
57. I beg yours. You can kill plenty of innocent folks with semi-auto.
Sat Feb 18, 2012, 01:18 AM
Feb 2012

Maybe not enough for some, but plenty.

Lasher

(27,472 posts)
60. And you can kill plenty of innocent folks with a car. Is a car a machine gun?
Sat Feb 18, 2012, 02:49 AM
Feb 2012

But hyperbole away as you insist. 'Machine gun' certainly sounds scarier than 'semi-automatic rifle'. Why don't you just call them all grenade launchers? After all you can kill a lot of people with a grenade launcher.

Do you know the primary sources for grenade launchers and fragmentation grenades that are being smuggled into Mexico? I'll give you a hint: The US is not one of them. Do you know the primary sources for actual full-automatic machine guns being smuggled into Mexico? The US is not one of those primary suppliers either.

 

Atypical Liberal

(5,412 posts)
77. It indicates ignorance or deceit on the part of the reporter.
Sun Feb 19, 2012, 08:18 AM
Feb 2012

Neither option does much for credibility.

 

Atypical Liberal

(5,412 posts)
120. Except we know that this confusion has been intentionally fostered.
Wed Feb 22, 2012, 11:54 AM
Feb 2012

It would be easier to believe in ignorance if it were not for the admitted intentional deception of the gun-control crowd.

From the VPC:

http://www.vpc.org/studies/awaconc.htm

"Assault weapons - just like armor-piercing bullets, machine guns, and plastic firearms - are a new topic. The weapons' menacing looks, coupled with the public's confusion over fully automatic machine guns versus semi-automatic assault weapons - anything that looks like a machine gun is assumed to be a machine gun - can only increase the chance of public support for restrictions on these weapons."

 

DUIC

(167 posts)
15. Sounds like a jobs killing bid
Fri Feb 17, 2012, 11:21 AM
Feb 2012

Gun manufacturing is good-paying blue collar work for many Americans. Would Calderon prefer that the guns were manufactured in Mexico?

Kolesar

(31,182 posts)
17. Please tell me you are being sarcastic
Fri Feb 17, 2012, 11:54 AM
Feb 2012

It would fit the milieu of this forum if it was sarcastic.

 

DUIC

(167 posts)
19. Partially
Fri Feb 17, 2012, 12:22 PM
Feb 2012

Calderon smashes 7,500 weapons with an even bigger weapon, the tank. He has clearly demonstrated that he is pro-weapon.

minavasht

(413 posts)
20. It sounds and looks cool
Fri Feb 17, 2012, 01:14 PM
Feb 2012

but it doesn't offer any real solutions.
In 2008 the Mexican government sent the information of 7000 of the 30 000 seized guns to ATF. 4000 of those were traced back to USA. The rest (about 85%) apparently came from somewhere else.
Illegal trafficking of guns across the border is just that, illegal. Making it more illegal will not change a thing.
Now, the only thing that can possibly stop the illegal import of guns in Mexico is controlling the border. You see, it goes both ways - mexicans and drugs cross the border in USA, guns go the other way.
Since it will never going to happen, the sign will be just that - a cool sign.

jpak

(41,724 posts)
23. but...but...but we have been told by Gun Luvers that thar ain't no gun running to Mexico
Fri Feb 17, 2012, 01:54 PM
Feb 2012

never mind

yup

montanto

(2,966 posts)
38. The fact of "guns in Mexico"
Fri Feb 17, 2012, 04:01 PM
Feb 2012

is in no way proof, all by itself, of "gun running from the U.S. to Mexico." Most of us Gun Luvers would like to know serial numbers, makes, and models of fully automatic weapons that they crushed. Fully automatic weapons aren't available on every grocery-store shelf in the U.S., contrary to popular belief. Unnumbered weapons could have come from anywhere, including Mexico. Some of us would like more information before we take aim at innocent and law abiding gun owners here in the states.

yup

jpak

(41,724 posts)
39. Yeah - them traceable serial numbers that go back to Texas gun shops is a gummit conspiracy!
Fri Feb 17, 2012, 04:10 PM
Feb 2012

yup

 

DUIC

(167 posts)
42. or - more likely - the traceable serial numbers that go back to the Mexican military and police
Fri Feb 17, 2012, 04:56 PM
Feb 2012
 

expatriate2mex

(148 posts)
53. Bingo!!!! They are using full auto weapons plus grenades and rocket launchers here.
Fri Feb 17, 2012, 07:53 PM
Feb 2012

Mexican military and police have to be providing them. See post 52, they destroyed grenades and rocket launchers also.



EX500rider

(10,448 posts)
70. Some came stolen from the Mexican authorities...but
Sat Feb 18, 2012, 12:07 PM
Feb 2012

remember we are talking about well established smuggling operations with millions of $ at their disposal. They can come from anywhere. (except the US where full auto is hard to come by) I would bet Africa and other Central/South American countries supply a large number also.

 

expatriate2mex

(148 posts)
71. Sure, I am sure some are coming from south of us. Full autos,
Sat Feb 18, 2012, 02:01 PM
Feb 2012

Last edited Sat Feb 18, 2012, 03:11 PM - Edit history (1)

grenades and rocket launchers are not being smuggled across the border. The point is that our illustrious hypocrite, calderon, needs to clean up our own back yard first. Not to mention most who cross the border this way rarely even interact with a human unless they want to claim something. The military mainly just bothers the honest people after something happens.....unless another group of narcos pays them to bust their competition.

There's a media bias also. In the canadian and mexican links I posted below they mention the grenades and rocket launchers, the us articles that I have seen do not.

Kurska

(5,739 posts)
50. The weapons in question are automatic, there is no way in hell the majority of them came from
Fri Feb 17, 2012, 05:56 PM
Feb 2012

texas gun shops. Fully automatic weapons in the united states are several thousand dollars for legal purchases.

Lasher

(27,472 posts)
56. More important than the price, you require a Federal Firearms License to buy or own one.
Sat Feb 18, 2012, 12:58 AM
Feb 2012

FFL obligations are not trivial. The feds frequently show up unannounced to see if fully automatic machine gun there where it is supposed to be. If it is not, they will lock you up and throw away the key.

boppers

(16,588 posts)
63. Again with the qualifiers.
Sat Feb 18, 2012, 02:57 AM
Feb 2012

They said 7,500 "automatic" weapons.

Not 7,500 "fully automatic" weapons.

See the difference?

See #58.

aikoaiko

(34,113 posts)
68. Not true. We've been saying that gun restrictionists are fibbing about the amount of gun running.
Sat Feb 18, 2012, 10:21 AM
Feb 2012

The amount and proportion of guns being bought at US gun stores with NICS checks is only a fraction of the total guns being smuggled into Mexico.

The truth doesn't help the cause for keeping guns out of the hands of law abiding folks in the US.

Dreamer Tatum

(10,926 posts)
25. You mean things entering into Mexico, illegally, are causing issues down there?
Fri Feb 17, 2012, 01:58 PM
Feb 2012

And we need to address that?

Gee...

aikoaiko

(34,113 posts)
31. What a pendejo! To do what he asks would mean to stop arming his Policía Federal.
Fri Feb 17, 2012, 02:40 PM
Feb 2012

Only a minority of the weapons seized at Mexican gun crimes were bought at US gun stores (FFLs), smuggled over the border and purchased by Mexicans.
 

PavePusher

(15,374 posts)
37. Perhaps Mexico could have provided a list of make/model/serial numbers of those guns.....
Fri Feb 17, 2012, 03:49 PM
Feb 2012

so we would actually be able to tell where they came from.

Until they do, Calderon is a lying sack of shit.

 

expatriate2mex

(148 posts)
52. I can tell you right now that the weapons
Fri Feb 17, 2012, 07:38 PM
Feb 2012

narcos are getting caught with right now are full auto, grenades and rocket launchers. These are only coming through a military, our (mexican) military and from south of us. Many of these ARE traceable to the us, but they sold them to our military. Calderon is leaving that part out.

Sure some are coming across illegally, but these guys have long graduated from semi auto carbines.

I notice this article says nothing about the grenades and rocket launchers.

"Shortly before Calderon's speech in Mexico's most violent city, military authorities destroyed thousands of weapons — including dozens of grenades and rocket launchers — seized from drug traffickers in Mexico during 2011.

http://www.canada.com/news/Mexico+calls+halt+flow+weapons+gangs/6166460/story.html

"El ejército mexicano destruyó en Ciudad Juárez (norte) miles armas, granadas y lanza cohetes decomisados a narcotraficantes en 2011


http://nuevaya.com.ni/?p=19887


Hugabear

(10,340 posts)
92. That's funny, I thought guns were supposed to make society SAFER
Mon Feb 20, 2012, 02:37 AM
Feb 2012

After all, if guns are readily available, shouldn't crime be LOWER?

Seems to me that Mexico needs MORE guns! EVERYONE in Mexico should have guns!

 

PavePusher

(15,374 posts)
93. Crime levels are lower in the U.S. and have trended that way for some time.
Mon Feb 20, 2012, 11:08 AM
Feb 2012

Mexico has never had a very effective government, at least in the non-corrupt and law-enforcement aspects. That may have something to do with their problems.

 

Comrade Grumpy

(13,184 posts)
97. How diifficult is it to convert a semi-automatic AK-47 knock-off to full auto?
Mon Feb 20, 2012, 01:28 PM
Feb 2012

In his book, "El Narco," journalist Ioan Grillo says the cartels love the AK-47, that they buy the knock-offs in the US, and convert them to full auto.

He also says the ATF had traced 63,000 weapons seized in Mexico back to the US. That's a lot of guns.

I think some of our 2nd Amendment types are being disingenuous on this issue.

hack89

(39,171 posts)
98. Very hard
Mon Feb 20, 2012, 08:47 PM
Feb 2012

by Federal law, any weapon that can easily be converted to full auto is regulated as an automatic weapon.

Semi-automac knock offs only look like the real thing from the outside - the internal workings are completely different.

The world is awash with real AK-47s - they don't need to overpay for semi-auto knockoffs and them take time and money to convert them.

hack89

(39,171 posts)
112. Automatic rifles are regulated at the component level
Tue Feb 21, 2012, 10:01 AM
Feb 2012

that full auto parts kit is also highly regulated. You just can't order it on line.

And did you look at those instructions? It would take a skilled machinist with access to a well equipped machine shop nearly a day to do all that work. Full auto receivers are machined to pretty high tolerances - it requires a skilled worker to do this.

The point is that many seem to think that all it takes to convert an AK to full auto is to swap out a few part in a matter of minutes. As you have proven, it is actually very hard to do it.

hack89

(39,171 posts)
117. By a skilled machinest. With expensive tools
Tue Feb 21, 2012, 03:16 PM
Feb 2012

my only point is that there is a common misconception that an untrained guy on the street can order a kit and by swapping out a few parts, have a fully automatic AK.

The current situation is perfectly acceptable to me. Rifles are the least likely murder weapon in common use. Baseball bats kill many more annually. Full auto AKs are not making the news so I don't think it is worth fussing over.

 

Dr_Scholl

(212 posts)
121. Have you ever read one of those manuals?
Wed Feb 22, 2012, 12:39 PM
Feb 2012

The instructions are sketchy at best, plus the machinery and equipment required run over $10,000.

 

Comrade Grumpy

(13,184 posts)
114. I'm not sure over how many years, whether it's since 2005 or 2007 or what.
Tue Feb 21, 2012, 02:34 PM
Feb 2012

It's still 63,000 weapons seized from criminals or at crime scenes in Mexico--63,000 weapons that came from the US. I really don't understand the need for some people to deny this is happening or to try to minimize it.

Which is not to say that the cartels are not getting weapons from other sources, too. Some have been traced back to the Mexican military, some to Central American military stockpiles left over from the '80s (Thanks, Reagan).

 

PavePusher

(15,374 posts)
119. Not all those weapons were seized from cartel affiliates.
Wed Feb 22, 2012, 09:08 AM
Feb 2012

The problem is that we don't know the break-down. (Or at least I am unaware if a reliable break-down is available.) How many came from drug gangs? How many were seized from people who were actually trying to defend themselves from the drug gangs, or corrupt police, but couldn't legally buy guns under Mexico's really fucktarded gun laws?

There are way too many unknowns in the equation to get any meaningful answers. And yes, that's actually a very small number of guns in the big picture.

 

LanternWaste

(37,748 posts)
122. I imagine a sign reading "No more weapons" would indeed
Wed Feb 22, 2012, 02:00 PM
Feb 2012

I imagine a sign reading "No more weapons" would indeed, in and of itself, incite the ire of many people. Very sad.

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