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kpete

(71,961 posts)
Sat Jul 6, 2013, 10:46 PM Jul 2013

In Secret, Court Vastly Broadens Powers of N.S.A. ("almost a parallel Supreme Court")

Source: New York TImes

In Secret, Court Vastly Broadens Powers of N.S.A.
By ERIC LICHTBLAU
Published: July 6, 2013 10 Comments


WASHINGTON — In more than a dozen classified rulings, the nation’s surveillance court has created a secret body of law giving the National Security Agency the power to amass vast collections of data on Americans while pursuing not only terrorism suspects, but also people possibly involved in nuclear proliferation, espionage and cyberattacks, officials say.

The rulings, some nearly 100 pages long, reveal that the court has taken on a much more expansive role by regularly assessing broad constitutional questions and establishing important judicial precedents, with almost no public scrutiny, according to current and former officials familiar with the court’s classified decisions.

The 11-member Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court, known as the FISA court, was once mostly focused on approving case-by-case wiretapping orders. But since major changes in legislation and greater judicial oversight of intelligence operations were instituted six years ago, it has quietly become almost a parallel Supreme Court, serving as the ultimate arbiter on surveillance issues and delivering opinions that will most likely shape intelligence practices for years to come, the officials said.

Last month, a former National Security Agency contractor, Edward J. Snowden, leaked a classified order from the FISA court, which authorized the collection of all phone-tracing data from Verizon business customers. But the court’s still-secret decisions go far beyond any single surveillance order, the officials said.

Read more: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/07/us/in-secret-court-vastly-broadens-powers-of-nsa.html?hpw



add this (from a couple of days ago):
Chief Justice Roberts Is Awesome Power Behind FISA Court
By Ezra Klein Jul 2, 2013 11:23 AM PT


"The 11 FISA judges, chosen from throughout the federal bench for seven-year terms, are all appointed by the chief justice. In fact, every FISA judge currently serving was appointed by Chief Justice John Roberts, who will continue making such appointments until he retires or dies. FISA judges don’t need confirmation -- by Congress or anyone else.
http://www.bloo
mberg.com/news/2013-07-02/chief-justice-roberts-is-awesome-power-behind-fisa-court.html


62 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
In Secret, Court Vastly Broadens Powers of N.S.A. ("almost a parallel Supreme Court") (Original Post) kpete Jul 2013 OP
Thank You For Sharing - This Only Gets Worse As We Begin To Learn More cantbeserious Jul 2013 #1
Why does that sound familiar... Arctic Dave Jul 2013 #2
My first thought too daleo Jul 2013 #25
TRUST US. We wouldn't lie to you, blkmusclmachine Jul 2013 #50
Drip drip nineteen50 Jul 2013 #3
those are some big drips! G_j Jul 2013 #32
Stop the neo-cons, neo-liberals and the corporate court nineteen50 Jul 2013 #33
No wonder, FISA has been stacked with John Roberts' henchmen AZ Progressive Jul 2013 #4
Bushmen, to be exact. Coyotl Jul 2013 #21
Chimp Men warrant46 Jul 2013 #61
No argument there Coyotl Jul 2013 #62
insoc. nt Javaman Jul 2013 #5
The NYT is clearly a bunch of racist Paul-bots Newsjock Jul 2013 #6
Maybe the NYTimes also is suddenly developing "Libertarian leanings." 99th_Monkey Jul 2013 #9
And you're extremely naive if you didn't know everybody has been doing this Celefin Jul 2013 #16
Psst... DeSwiss Jul 2013 #22
Psst... Celefin Jul 2013 #57
.... DeSwiss Jul 2013 #60
Has anyone checked yet for pornography connections? nt DRoseDARs Jul 2013 #54
K&R MotherPetrie Jul 2013 #7
K&R nt Mnemosyne Jul 2013 #8
Why is this court allowed to issue decisions in secret? JDPriestly Jul 2013 #10
United States of Police. Welcome to the American Fascism. Nanjing to Seoul Jul 2013 #11
WTF is the nation's surveillence court? olddad56 Jul 2013 #12
Not to correct you on this, Alkene Jul 2013 #55
Here's the members of the FISA court: AnotherMcIntosh Jul 2013 #13
Or are they judges who found favorably for the defense when BC, HRC and BO could have elehhhhna Jul 2013 #31
My gawd, how did you find that!?! Major Hogwash Jul 2013 #53
Not compatible with democracy. AzDar Jul 2013 #14
This is not democracy! Enthusiast Jul 2013 #15
Secret law is not law at all, it's arbitrary power exercised arbitrarily. nt bemildred Jul 2013 #17
This Mockery Must Stop! Demeter Jul 2013 #18
The hits just keep on coming don't they? DeSwiss Jul 2013 #19
Two words: Bush Junta! Coyotl Jul 2013 #20
Four Letters Octafish Jul 2013 #23
Less than 100 pgs in 34 years = "almost a parallel Supreme Court"? lulz. nt ucrdem Jul 2013 #24
Secret courts tend not to be wordy daleo Jul 2013 #26
Of course. Next up: Obamacare secret death panels. ucrdem Jul 2013 #27
Funny you should use a picture of Palin as you defend your inability to read for comprehension. JoeyT Jul 2013 #36
If I were YOU, bvar22 Jul 2013 #44
"The rulings, some nearly 100 pages long" HooptieWagon Jul 2013 #30
Deliberate. ForgoTheConsequence Jul 2013 #39
It follows their pattern of deception, no? HooptieWagon Jul 2013 #40
Exactly. ForgoTheConsequence Jul 2013 #41
Drat, foiled again. ucrdem Jul 2013 #42
Are you admitting you were wrong/lied? ForgoTheConsequence Jul 2013 #45
What I'm doing right now is hiding this thread. Later. nt ucrdem Jul 2013 #46
Lol. ForgoTheConsequence Jul 2013 #47
But they got the "lulz. nt." in MNBrewer Jul 2013 #51
If it's not one, it's another! Dyedinthewoolliberal Jul 2013 #28
So........ as long as Roberts is on the court he will appoint judges who are like minded... Gin Jul 2013 #29
Kicked and recommended. Uncle Joe Jul 2013 #34
It's in fundamental opposition to the template of the Constitution Yo_Mama Jul 2013 #35
Message auto-removed Name removed Jul 2013 #37
"the court’s still-secret decisions go far beyond any single surveillance order, the officials said" allin99 Jul 2013 #38
Catch 22 there though with the whole not requiring confirmation for appointments cstanleytech Jul 2013 #43
Gee. I guess he isn't going to be the "Transparency President" after all. bvar22 Jul 2013 #48
We're all Germans now. blkmusclmachine Jul 2013 #49
K&R pscot Jul 2013 #52
Kick Kick Kick! truebluegreen Jul 2013 #56
If you ever read Gulag Archipelago.. Javaman Jul 2013 #58
How do they know then? treestar Jul 2013 #59

nineteen50

(1,187 posts)
33. Stop the neo-cons, neo-liberals and the corporate court
Sun Jul 7, 2013, 12:15 PM
Jul 2013

Karl Rove (Neo-con) said in 2008 to Ron Suskind
"Guys like you are in--what we call--'the reality-based community'. You believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality." "That's not the way the world really works anymore. We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality—judiciously, as you will—we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors…and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do."

AZ Progressive

(3,411 posts)
4. No wonder, FISA has been stacked with John Roberts' henchmen
Sat Jul 6, 2013, 11:06 PM
Jul 2013

The tyranny of the Supreme Court Conservatives continues...

Newsjock

(11,733 posts)
6. The NYT is clearly a bunch of racist Paul-bots
Sat Jul 6, 2013, 11:20 PM
Jul 2013

Just getting that said before someone comes in here and actually means it. You're welcome.

 

99th_Monkey

(19,326 posts)
9. Maybe the NYTimes also is suddenly developing "Libertarian leanings."
Sun Jul 7, 2013, 12:05 AM
Jul 2013

.. "Libertarian leanings", just like Greenwald does not have, yet Naomi Wolf
apparently does actually have, and has had ever since 2008 (same year Obama
was elected ?? hmm??), at which time she hooked up with Lew Rockwell.

Now Wolf is trying to cast suspicion on Snowden as a walking single-handed NSA
"false flag" psyop, while Greenwald is unequivacal in his support for Snowden.

Their are so many layers of irony here it gets mind-boggling; which all
point pretty much in the same direction, i.e. we're slip sliding away, into a
high-tech tyrannical abyss. ... unless enough of us wake up in time to prevent it.

From TruthOut.com:
http://www.truth-out.org/archive/item/88767:naomi-wolf-tea-parties-help-fight-fascism

From Ron Paul's website:
http://www.dailypaul.com/71136/lew-rockwell-interviews-naomi-wolf-turning-libertarian

Celefin

(532 posts)
16. And you're extremely naive if you didn't know everybody has been doing this
Sun Jul 7, 2013, 04:33 AM
Jul 2013

...like, forever.
I mean, star chambers and secret constitutional courts have a long tradition.
And spying has been on this massive scale ever since it began.
Oh, and it's OK. Because everybody does it.

Nothing to see here, I've learned that on DU.

 

DeSwiss

(27,137 posts)
22. Psst...
Sun Jul 7, 2013, 09:50 AM
Jul 2013

...it was sarcasm.

- Of course you're right to chastise them for it. Because only 100% Pure and Unadulterated True Cynics like me can get away with that kind of statement without having to use one of these:

Celefin

(532 posts)
57. Psst...
Mon Jul 8, 2013, 08:30 AM
Jul 2013

...so was my post. Should I have used ?

I trust in pure and unadulterated true cynicism. I do.
*bows*

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
10. Why is this court allowed to issue decisions in secret?
Sun Jul 7, 2013, 12:12 AM
Jul 2013

What is the point?

That deprives them and us all of the benefit of a wide range of input into the processes they oversee.

We are entitled to public trials. Why would a secret court be compatible with the promise of public trials for those accused of crimes?

Is the argument that they do not decide criminal matters?

What pedantry.

We are supposed to be a democracy. Secret courts, regardless their purpose, are not consistent with democratic government.

Secret diplomacy? Yes, when necessary. Secret military preparations? As rarely as possible.

But not secret courts.

olddad56

(5,732 posts)
12. WTF is the nation's surveillence court?
Sun Jul 7, 2013, 12:21 AM
Jul 2013

It is just weird living in this country that has always prided itself on freedom and liberty and then you find out you only have it figuratively.

Alkene

(752 posts)
55. Not to correct you on this,
Sun Jul 7, 2013, 06:55 PM
Jul 2013

but instead of, "nation's," one might say, Homeland's. As in, Der Homeland.

 

AnotherMcIntosh

(11,064 posts)
13. Here's the members of the FISA court:
Sun Jul 7, 2013, 12:28 AM
Jul 2013

Judge Reggie Walton (presiding) -- District of Columbia
Judge Rosemary M. Collyer -- District of Columbia
Judge Raymond J. Dearie -- Eastern District of New York
Judge Claire Eagan -- Northern District of Oklahoma
Judge Martin L.C. Feldman -- Eastern District of Louisiana
Judge Thomas Hogan -- District of Columbia
Judge Mary A. McLaughlin -- Eastern District of Pennsylvania
Judge Michael W. Mosman -- District of Oregon
Judge F. Dennis Saylor IV -- District of Massachusetts
Judge Susan Webber Wright -- Eastern District of Arkansas
Judge James Zagel -- Northern District of Illinois

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Foreign_Intelligence_Surveillance_Court

Do they have to be exceptional judges? Or just judges that are willing to disregard the Fourth Amendment and rubber stamp whatever is put in front of them?

 

elehhhhna

(32,076 posts)
31. Or are they judges who found favorably for the defense when BC, HRC and BO could have
Sun Jul 7, 2013, 11:49 AM
Jul 2013

had a mess on their hands if they found otherwise? Only looked at two bios and that's what I found.


we're screwn.

 

Demeter

(85,373 posts)
18. This Mockery Must Stop!
Sun Jul 7, 2013, 09:26 AM
Jul 2013

This isn't justice, this isn't law, this isn't democracy, this is BULLSHIT!

 

DeSwiss

(27,137 posts)
19. The hits just keep on coming don't they?
Sun Jul 7, 2013, 09:46 AM
Jul 2013
- I can only imagine the level of denial that would be necessary to pretend not to understand the implications of all this. Those suffering from denial, please get help.

K&R

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
23. Four Letters
Sun Jul 7, 2013, 10:27 AM
Jul 2013

B.F.E.E.

John Roberts was there helpin' Smirko steal Florida in 2000. Money's trumped peace Big Time ever since.

JoeyT

(6,785 posts)
36. Funny you should use a picture of Palin as you defend your inability to read for comprehension.
Sun Jul 7, 2013, 02:52 PM
Jul 2013

The rulings are nearly 100 pages long. Not nearly 100 pages of rulings.

You really shouldn't need the difference explained.

bvar22

(39,909 posts)
44. If I were YOU,
Sun Jul 7, 2013, 05:13 PM
Jul 2013

I would go back and delete the last few EMBARRASSING posts
before too many DUers have a chance to read them.

The rulings are nearly 100 pages long. Not nearly 100 pages of rulings.

Your *** is hanging out,
and it belongs up there next to Sarah Palin.

No Charge.
 

HooptieWagon

(17,064 posts)
30. "The rulings, some nearly 100 pages long"
Sun Jul 7, 2013, 11:19 AM
Jul 2013

Did you fail to read the post, or are you deliberately misstating it?

Gin

(7,212 posts)
29. So........ as long as Roberts is on the court he will appoint judges who are like minded...
Sun Jul 7, 2013, 11:18 AM
Jul 2013

Each day new ways of spying on all of us are exposed.....

.I don't like it....and it will only get worse....but....what can we do about it?

These programs have layers so even if they say it will stop, there is no doubt it will continue..as in TIA...it never went away...just underground and spread its tentacles to all of us everywhere.

What can we citizens do about this?


Gin

Yo_Mama

(8,303 posts)
35. It's in fundamental opposition to the template of the Constitution
Sun Jul 7, 2013, 01:31 PM
Jul 2013

Which never envisioned such an obscured concentration of power, and indeed was written to prevent it.

But we have it anyway, and the only way to change this is to lobby Congress. This is shameful.

Response to kpete (Original post)

allin99

(894 posts)
38. "the court’s still-secret decisions go far beyond any single surveillance order, the officials said"
Sun Jul 7, 2013, 03:42 PM
Jul 2013

You know it's bad when officials say it's even beyond recent revelations....

wtf do we do about this?

cstanleytech

(26,236 posts)
43. Catch 22 there though with the whole not requiring confirmation for appointments
Sun Jul 7, 2013, 04:57 PM
Jul 2013

to the FISA court because if they required it with this congress controlled by the republicans you wont get anyone confirmed but on the other hand I really dont like that its Roberts and Roberts alone whos appointing them.
Perhaps they should change it so 3 are appointed by the Chief Justice for 7 years, 3 appointed by congress for 6 years, 3 from the senate for 5 years and 2 by the president for 4 years.
That way no one branch has to much control over the FISA courts.

Javaman

(62,503 posts)
58. If you ever read Gulag Archipelago..
Mon Jul 8, 2013, 08:54 AM
Jul 2013

You would see the frightening similarities.

We aren't quite at that point just yet, but but we are getting there.

in the book there was a think called "article 58" which was a blanket "law" that allowed the soviet authorities to jail you for just about anything they wanted and then used it as an excuse for something you did against the soviet state.

leading to a slippery slope? Ha, that's a laugh, we are on our stomachs sliding head first into the pit, all the while, the people of this nation are kept divided and the talking heads on the news discuss semantics while the politics take away our rights at the behest of their corporate masters.

I'm middle aged, I'll live experience some of the full on effect, but the next generation, who still have a echo of a faded image of what our actual freedoms are, will be thumbed down so that their children won't know any difference.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
59. How do they know then?
Mon Jul 8, 2013, 09:20 AM
Jul 2013

Obviously it is not completely secret.

http://www.lawfareblog.com/2013/06/dni-statement-on-facts-on-the-collection-of-intelligence-pursuant-to-section-702-of-the-foreign-intelligence-surveillance-act/

Some information on what oversight there is.

Of course we could abolish the FISA and go back to the President doing whatever he/she wants, like in Nixon's day.

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