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Tue Apr 16, 2013, 02:35 PM

US won't accept Venezuela election result, says full recount still needed

Source: strib

The Obama administration is refusing to accept the official results of Venezuela's weekend presidential election, which gave victory to the protege of the country's late leftist leader Hugo Chavez.

The State Department said Tuesday that a full recount of the vote and an investigation into alleged irregularities were needed, given the close tally that almost evenly divided the country. On Monday, the U.S. had called for a full recount before results were certified but the election commission went ahead with certification without one.

The State Department said it was "difficult to understand" why the commission certified ruling party candidate Nicolas Maduro as the winner in the absence of a recount, which challenger Henrique Capriles is demanding.


Read more: http://www.startribune.com/nation/203241981.html

156 replies, 14015 views

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Reply US won't accept Venezuela election result, says full recount still needed (Original post)
azurnoir Apr 2013 OP
Common Sense Party Apr 2013 #1
cartach Apr 2013 #44
tblue Apr 2013 #56
hifiguy Apr 2013 #117
kelliekat44 Apr 2013 #150
Daniel537 Apr 2013 #91
Common Sense Party Apr 2013 #93
Daniel537 Apr 2013 #94
Fumesucker Apr 2013 #128
Ken Burch Apr 2013 #120
Common Sense Party Apr 2013 #126
Ken Burch Apr 2013 #143
wordpix Apr 2013 #148
wordpix Apr 2013 #152
killbotfactory Apr 2013 #154
dipsydoodle Apr 2013 #2
Tarheel_Dem Apr 2013 #6
Mika Apr 2013 #9
mecherosegarden Apr 2013 #55
joshcryer Apr 2013 #69
dipsydoodle Apr 2013 #14
Common Sense Party Apr 2013 #17
LanternWaste Apr 2013 #106
Common Sense Party Apr 2013 #107
joshcryer Apr 2013 #70
Bradical79 Apr 2013 #95
Ken Burch Apr 2013 #119
Tarheel_Dem Apr 2013 #122
Ken Burch Apr 2013 #123
Tarheel_Dem Apr 2013 #125
Ken Burch Apr 2013 #145
wordpix Apr 2013 #149
Orsino Apr 2013 #96
freshwest Apr 2013 #133
DiverDave Apr 2013 #3
Tom Rinaldo Apr 2013 #4
GETPLANING Apr 2013 #5
Tarheel_Dem Apr 2013 #7
ronnie624 Apr 2013 #66
Judi Lynn Apr 2013 #18
PufPuf23 Apr 2013 #25
Comrade Grumpy Apr 2013 #28
joshcryer Apr 2013 #82
Coyotl Apr 2013 #77
joshcryer Apr 2013 #81
bitchkitty Apr 2013 #99
idwiyo Apr 2013 #102
bitchkitty Apr 2013 #115
joshcryer Apr 2013 #116
Champion Jack Apr 2013 #8
JustAnotherGen Apr 2013 #11
Ernesto Apr 2013 #12
WCGreen Apr 2013 #23
Freddie Stubbs Apr 2013 #34
ronnie624 Apr 2013 #67
roody Apr 2013 #10
Vincardog Apr 2013 #32
Solly Mack Apr 2013 #13
demwing Apr 2013 #15
Stewland Apr 2013 #16
BadtotheboneBob Apr 2013 #19
Judi Lynn Apr 2013 #20
tblue Apr 2013 #57
jsr Apr 2013 #74
Daniel537 Apr 2013 #92
frylock Apr 2013 #21
Coyotl Apr 2013 #76
OKNancy Apr 2013 #22
bahrbearian Apr 2013 #45
Jefferson23 Apr 2013 #129
ronnie624 Apr 2013 #68
joshcryer Apr 2013 #71
reorg Apr 2013 #24
go west young man Apr 2013 #26
La Lioness Priyanka Apr 2013 #29
Judi Lynn Apr 2013 #30
msongs Apr 2013 #27
Puzzledtraveller Apr 2013 #142
Mnpaul Apr 2013 #31
Judi Lynn Apr 2013 #35
Carolina Apr 2013 #109
bl968 Apr 2013 #33
SamKnause Apr 2013 #36
november3rd Apr 2013 #37
retread Apr 2013 #38
Mnpaul Apr 2013 #40
olddad56 Apr 2013 #39
Downwinder Apr 2013 #41
Mnpaul Apr 2013 #49
Carolina Apr 2013 #112
Carolina Apr 2013 #113
bitchkitty Apr 2013 #134
Doctor_J Apr 2013 #42
Spitfire of ATJ Apr 2013 #43
Bacchus4.0 Apr 2013 #46
Doctor_J Apr 2013 #62
joshcryer Apr 2013 #73
Doctor_J Apr 2013 #85
joshcryer Apr 2013 #87
idwiyo Apr 2013 #104
Blue_Tires Apr 2013 #47
arikara Apr 2013 #48
adieu Apr 2013 #50
malthaussen Apr 2013 #51
Zorra Apr 2013 #52
Taverner Apr 2013 #53
Smilo Apr 2013 #54
PSPS Apr 2013 #58
2ndAmForComputers Apr 2013 #59
The Wizard Apr 2013 #60
bitchkitty Apr 2013 #61
Pterodactyl Apr 2013 #63
roody Apr 2013 #89
Peace Patriot Apr 2013 #64
joshcryer Apr 2013 #72
reorg Apr 2013 #79
joshcryer Apr 2013 #80
reorg Apr 2013 #83
joshcryer Apr 2013 #84
Carolina Apr 2013 #111
byeya Apr 2013 #144
Incitatus Apr 2013 #65
Carolina Apr 2013 #110
Coyotl Apr 2013 #75
Daniel537 Apr 2013 #90
Mr_Jefferson_24 Apr 2013 #78
DainBramaged Apr 2013 #86
City Lights Apr 2013 #88
Catherina Apr 2013 #97
idwiyo Apr 2013 #100
dipsydoodle Apr 2013 #101
Catherina Apr 2013 #103
dipsydoodle Apr 2013 #105
octothorpe Apr 2013 #98
Carolina Apr 2013 #108
Catherina Apr 2013 #114
Ken Burch Apr 2013 #118
Enrique Apr 2013 #121
ForgoTheConsequence Apr 2013 #130
Ken Burch Apr 2013 #124
Catherina Apr 2013 #127
2ndAmForComputers Apr 2013 #132
Catherina Apr 2013 #137
Puglover Apr 2013 #140
Jefferson23 Apr 2013 #131
fujiyama Apr 2013 #135
Nihil Apr 2013 #138
Catherina Apr 2013 #136
Judi Lynn Apr 2013 #147
Catherina Apr 2013 #139
azurnoir Apr 2013 #141
joshcryer Apr 2013 #146
killbotfactory Apr 2013 #151
Rex Apr 2013 #153
Judi Lynn May 2013 #155
ozone_man May 2013 #156

Response to azurnoir (Original post)

Tue Apr 16, 2013, 02:36 PM

1. Count every vote

Every vote counts!

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Response to Common Sense Party (Reply #1)

Tue Apr 16, 2013, 04:54 PM

44. Here we go again.

Interfering with another country when we disagree with them. Maybe some other country should have interfered in the US election results when Bush rigged them to win with the help of Florida and the Supreme Court. There was a lot more evidence of wrongdoing then than there is in this case. The US can't even accept a close election result. It would seem that with all else that is happening that the Obama administration has taken up the full Republican agenda.

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Response to Common Sense Party (Reply #1)

Tue Apr 16, 2013, 07:09 PM

56. Fix America first.

I know we are trying to finally get Venezuela's vast oil reserves handed over to our multinational oil baron friends, but how can we dare tell anyone to count every vote when we don't and we know it?

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Response to tblue (Reply #56)

Wed Apr 17, 2013, 04:14 PM

117. This.

A thousand times this.

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Response to hifiguy (Reply #117)

Fri Apr 19, 2013, 02:35 PM

150. We just never learn, do we? I am ashamed of my President on this issue. nt

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Response to Common Sense Party (Reply #1)

Wed Apr 17, 2013, 10:08 AM

91. Agreed. We should count every vote in our elections.

Venezuela is not our colony.

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Response to Daniel537 (Reply #91)

Wed Apr 17, 2013, 10:12 AM

93. Correct. So they should not have fair and honest elections.

Since we don't, they shouldn't, either. Got it.

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Response to Common Sense Party (Reply #93)

Wed Apr 17, 2013, 10:17 AM

94. Cute spin.

First off there's no evidence the election wasn't fair and honest. But even if they weren't, how is it different from "elections" in Saudi Arabia, Kazakhstan or Uzbekistan? And those are some of our best buddies. Point being, we have no right to be micro-managing every country with domestic issues. You want to take up the neo-con mantle, that's your problem.

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Response to Common Sense Party (Reply #93)

Wed Apr 17, 2013, 10:00 PM

128. Since we don't have honest and fair elections

It behooves us to keep our yaps shut about the level of honesty and fairness in elections elsewhere.

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Response to Common Sense Party (Reply #1)

Wed Apr 17, 2013, 04:22 PM

120. There weren't any problems with the vote.

It's just that Capriles can't accept that the people don't want him.

Given that he has nothing special to offer, why would he be surprised that he didn't win?

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #120)

Wed Apr 17, 2013, 07:10 PM

126. Aren't you surprised that only 51% of the people wanted Maduro?

Maybe.

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Response to Common Sense Party (Reply #126)

Thu Apr 18, 2013, 05:29 PM

143. No. I'd heard he was a cruddy campaigner and that his lead was dwindling

Last edited Thu Apr 18, 2013, 06:09 PM - Edit history (1)

I was actually prepared for the possibility that Capriles might win. As was the case in Nicaragua in 1990, it was always clear that the Left government of the day would behave honorably in defeat(though the U.S. still pretends that the Sandinistas didn't behave honorably in that event).

But the closeness of the result doesn't always mean the result is in question.

This is as I predicted...any result other than a Capriles landslide would not be accepted by the U.S. propaganda machine.

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #143)

Fri Apr 19, 2013, 08:40 AM

148. are you in Venez now? If not, you do not know what's happening. BTW, Capriles has lots of support

I don't have a horse in this race but did hear from my Venez. friends that some ballots had been burned. I guess that shouldn't be looked into, either.

And yes, my Venez. friends were IN Venez. during the voting.

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #120)

Fri Apr 19, 2013, 03:45 PM

152. I heard from a Venezuelan the gov. was burning votes

but it's hard to know what's going on from 3000 mi away

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Response to wordpix (Reply #152)

Fri Apr 19, 2013, 03:54 PM

154. Votes are recorded electronically, with paper printed out for backup

when the vote is audited they compare paper ballots with the electronic ones.

burning votes would not cause them to disappear, and would be found out in an audit.

there was a picture of a military guy burning ballots that's been making the rounds on social media among opposition activists, but it was a three year old picture of a guy getting rid of old ballots.

http://www.noticias24.com/actualidad/noticia/172888/en-fotos-incineradas-25-toneladas-de-material-electoral-usado-en-2006-y-2008/

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Response to azurnoir (Original post)

Tue Apr 16, 2013, 02:41 PM

2. What's Spanish for

just deal with it. I'm sure Venezuela is concerned with what the US State Dept. thinks - not.

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Response to dipsydoodle (Reply #2)

Tue Apr 16, 2013, 02:42 PM

6. So you're in favor of not counting the votes? Where have I heard that before?

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Response to Tarheel_Dem (Reply #6)

Tue Apr 16, 2013, 02:46 PM

9. The results do not cross the threshold for a recount...

.. due to the accuracy of Venezuela's election systems. The threshold for a recount wasn't achieved by the opposition.



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Response to Mika (Reply #9)

Tue Apr 16, 2013, 06:49 PM

55. It was achieved by the opposition.

Numbers were shown on national television. Maduro said that he was going to accept the recount and then he say he wouldn't. They are not respecting the constitution.

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Response to Mika (Reply #9)

Wed Apr 17, 2013, 02:10 AM

69. There's no conditional threshold in Venezuela.

The CNE decides whether to recount and citizens are allowed to petition for a recount.

http://globovision.com/articulo/conozca-los-procedimientos-necesarios-para-realizar-una-denuncia-electoral

It's fairly uncontroversial, except Tibi has already effectively said they won't be recounting, even though it was suggested before a formal request. The formal request, then, if rejected, would show bias on behalf of the CNE head. You don't come out, before, and say what you're going to do. That's Katherine Harris stuff right there.

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Response to Tarheel_Dem (Reply #6)

Tue Apr 16, 2013, 02:55 PM

14. They were passed by the election commission

and international observers were present. The only surprise was that Maduro didn't win by an even bigger margin.

" in favor of not counting the vote " ? I'm UK and we still use pieces of paper and pencils with all votes counted locally in plain sight. We leave Micky Mouse voting systems to the children.

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Response to dipsydoodle (Reply #14)

Tue Apr 16, 2013, 03:03 PM

17. Yes, I'm surprised Maduro didn't end up with 105% of the vote.

It's a travesty.

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Response to Common Sense Party (Reply #17)

Wed Apr 17, 2013, 01:26 PM

106. Might be advantageous to all concerned if you lodge your surprise with 140+ international observers

Might be advantageous to all concerned if you lodge your surprise with 140+ international observers who weren't in fact, surprised...

I can only imagine that common sense and parties do not in fact, deny subjective interpretation to better validate a presupposed premise.

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Response to LanternWaste (Reply #106)

Wed Apr 17, 2013, 01:37 PM

107. If the elections there are so fair and clean, they shouldn't be opposed to a recount.

Why not open the boxes?

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Response to dipsydoodle (Reply #14)

Wed Apr 17, 2013, 02:12 AM

70. The election commission has not observed the formal complaint.

And any language saying that there won't be a recount without seeing the formal complaints is a direct affront to legitimacy, and those saying it should be fired.

It's literally Katherine Harris all over again.

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Response to Tarheel_Dem (Reply #6)

Wed Apr 17, 2013, 10:29 AM

95. What votes weren't counted? -nt

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Response to Tarheel_Dem (Reply #6)

Wed Apr 17, 2013, 04:20 PM

119. The votes were already counted. The result is legitimate.

And it figures that you'd favor the conservative candidate.

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #119)

Wed Apr 17, 2013, 06:08 PM

122. One can only imagine where you'd come down had the results been reversed. I can imagine you....

blaming the US, the CIA, Pres. Obama for interference if Capriles had been declared the winner. You guys are such fakes. I don't trust your judgement any more than that of the people who had actually believe that Pres. Obama gave Chavez cancer.

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Response to Tarheel_Dem (Reply #122)

Wed Apr 17, 2013, 06:32 PM

123. No I wouldn't...considering that the results were counted by the Venezuelan government

I'd have accepted a Capriles win under those circumstances. Wouldn't have been happy about it, but would have accepted it.

I accepted the right-wing win in Nicaragua in 1990, after all, even though that result was caused by a group of U.S.-funded and invented-death squads called the Contras...you might remember them.

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #123)

Wed Apr 17, 2013, 06:58 PM

125. I could care less who "governs" Venezuela, but this was really close based on pre-election polling.

Of course, Maduro may wish Capriles had been declared the winner, considering the economic tsunami about to engulf the country.
Apparently, oil revenues are dropping precipitously, and guess who's gonna take the fall when the money runs out?


An Economic Crisis of Historic Proportions

Moisés Naím, a scholar at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, is a syndicated columnist and author......

......explained that unless the government supplies more dollars to pay for imports, shortages -- from food to medicine -- would be inevitable. "What we will give Fedecámaras is not more dollars but more headaches," replied acting president Nicolas Maduro, the heir apparent to the Chavista regime (and Hugo Chávez's vice president).

Maduro is correct. Crushing headaches will soon be inevitable across the country, including within the private sector but especially among the poor. President Chávez has bequeathed the nation an economic crisis of historic proportions. Venezuela is consuming more than it is producing. This is due to enormous government spending, mounting foreign debt and the mismanagement of its oil industry.

The crisis includes a fiscal deficit approaching 20 percent of the economy (in the cliff-panicking United States it is 7 percent), a black market where a U.S. dollar costs four times more than the government-determined exchange rate, one of the world's highest inflation rates, a swollen number of public sector jobs, debt 10 times larger than it was in 2003, a fragile banking system and the free fall of the state-controlled oil industry, the country's main source of revenue.

Oil-exporting countries rarely face hard currency shortages, but the Chávez regime may be the exception. Mismanagement and lack of investment have decreased oil production. Meanwhile oil revenue is compromised partly because of Chávez’s decision to supply Venezuelans with the country's most valuable resource at heavily subsidized prices. Thus a large and growing share of locally produced oil is sold domestically at the lowest prices in the world (in Venezuela it costs 25 cents to fill the tank of a mid-sized car).

http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2013/01/03/venezuela-post-chavez/chavez-will-leave-behind-an-economic-crisis


What Chavez did for the poor is to be admired, but there should have been a way to do that without demonizing & chasing away the scholars, the medical professionals, and the high tech talent. What you're left with is a poor and un/under-educated class, totally dependent upon the government for its existence. We're about to see what happens when the good times end, and I have a feeling Venezuelans know this, and it's the reason this election was razor thin.

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Response to Tarheel_Dem (Reply #125)

Thu Apr 18, 2013, 05:35 PM

145. There wasn't going to be any way to be "pro-business" and still help the poor

Unless you think Chavez should have reduced himself to being the Bill Clinton of Venezuela.
And how did Chavez ever demonize scholars?

One thing we do know...austerity and tax cuts for the wealthy are never good for the workers and the poor, and never help any society anywhere.

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #123)

Fri Apr 19, 2013, 08:43 AM

149. Venez. gov. is bought & owned by the former dictator & his people want to stay in power

nuff said

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Response to dipsydoodle (Reply #2)

Wed Apr 17, 2013, 10:36 AM

96. What's Spanish for "projection"? n/t

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Response to dipsydoodle (Reply #2)

Wed Apr 17, 2013, 11:01 PM

133. Or Spanish for 'Mind Your Own Business'? We've got plenty to do right here.

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Response to azurnoir (Original post)

Tue Apr 16, 2013, 02:41 PM

3. OH, BS

we don't like the result, so it HAS to be fraud...sheesh, big stick still, I guess.

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Response to azurnoir (Original post)

Tue Apr 16, 2013, 02:42 PM

4. Ummm, Florida 2000?

"The State Department said it was "difficult to understand" why the commission certified ruling party candidate Nicolas Maduro as the winner in the absence of a recount"

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Response to azurnoir (Original post)

Tue Apr 16, 2013, 02:42 PM

5. The Washington Consensus Doesn't Like The Outcome

But when an American election has not only "irregularities," but clear evidence of fraud and theft, it's just a conspiracy theory, so just get over it.

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Response to GETPLANING (Reply #5)

Tue Apr 16, 2013, 02:44 PM

7. And everyone who does "like the outcome" aren't at all prone to conspiracies, right?

Re-read your post.

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Response to Tarheel_Dem (Reply #7)

Wed Apr 17, 2013, 01:01 AM

66. I've re-read yours several times, and it makes no sense, at all. n/t

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Response to GETPLANING (Reply #5)

Tue Apr 16, 2013, 03:03 PM

18. See this interesting contrast in US reaction to a "close" election:

~snip~
Let's face it. In 2006, there was an election in Mexico where Calderon won by 0.6 percent, about a third of the margin that Maduro had. And what did the U.S. government do? They congratulated him before there was any kind of even announcement or official announcement that he won. And then they organized an international campaign to legitimate his election.

And they supported them when they not only refused a recount, but refused to even divulge ...


RAY SUAREZ: Absent American congratulations or not, what does Venezuelan law say about whether or not Capriles can get a recount? Is he likely to get one?

MARK WEISBROT: Oh, he doesn't have any entitlement to a recount.

And you already have -- the Venezuelan system is very secure. That's why Jimmy Carter called it the best in the -- electoral process in the world. They already audited 54 percent of the votes. Statistically, they do that right there. They take -- you know, there's two copies of every vote. You push a touch-screen. You get a receipt. You get to look at it. You put it in a ballot box.

So, unlike our system, where we don't really know who won when it's a close election, they know. They have 50 -- I mean, they take a random selection of 54 percent for an audit. And they look at the machine and they make sure it counts up with the ballot and they do it in front of the opposition witnesses. And that's already been done.

That's done at the election. You know, the difference between 100 percent and a 54 percent random sample in this situation is statistically not really that much. It's almost trivial.


More:
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/latin_america/jan-june13/venezuela2_04-15.html

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Response to Judi Lynn (Reply #18)

Tue Apr 16, 2013, 03:16 PM

25. Thanks for the perspective.

The USA has no moral nor legal standing to comment on any Venezuelan election.

Congratulations Mr. President Nicolas Maduro.

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Response to Judi Lynn (Reply #18)

Tue Apr 16, 2013, 03:22 PM

28. Most excellent post, Judy. It glaringly highlights the hypocrisy of the State Department.

And shows its "concern" for what it really is: Unhappiness that the socialist won.

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Response to Comrade Grumpy (Reply #28)

Wed Apr 17, 2013, 06:17 AM

82. What the US says or doesn't say is irrelevant.

Whether the rule of law and democratic principles are upheld is what is important.

Weisbrot thinks chavistas counting votes is less important than snubbing the US. Really, that's precisely what he said.

They know very well that their call for a 100 percent audit will, if it has any influence, make it less likely that the Venezuelan government would support such an audit.


He said that. Really.

Taking odious to an entirely new level.

The US would prefer Venezuela in a state of division for years so that chavismo loses more strength. If the CNE would do proper investigations and audits and accept the fraud allegations seriously, the chavistas would have a chance to come out on top and prove themselves capable of fully respecting democracy. There is no rational reason for them to not do it. But I don't expect them to do it precisely because they are irrational.

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Response to Judi Lynn (Reply #18)

Wed Apr 17, 2013, 02:53 AM

77. Exactly. The facts really do matter.

Especially when the Bullshit gets spread this thick.

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Response to Judi Lynn (Reply #18)

Wed Apr 17, 2013, 06:12 AM

81. Weisbrot is wrong about the count.

What Weisbrot doesn't get is that the 54% recount only allows the campaigners at the polling station to verify that the machine vote matches the actas (vote tally sheets). It ends there. It does not get magically transmitted anywhere. It is a polling station and machine verification audit. The actas are where the truth is, but the opposition doesn't have 100% of the actas. If the opposition was, in theory, winning in the polling stations where they had 90% of the actas, a full recount is necessary to get the rest of the data.

It has been alleged, for example, that in one voting station the actas said that there were 500 votes while the CNE results page says there were 700 votes. Such discrepancies must be looked at severely. Weisbrot is not looking at the actual discrepancies, he's just making supposition based upon a process which, if in theory done perfectly, would fit the narrative. The allegations are it wasn't done perfectly and that in fact there were widespread acts of fraud.

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Response to joshcryer (Reply #81)

Wed Apr 17, 2013, 12:45 PM

99. It has been alleged?

It has been alleged, for example, that in one voting station the actas said that there were 500 votes while the CNE results page says there were 700 votes.


Alleged by whom?

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Response to bitchkitty (Reply #99)

Wed Apr 17, 2013, 01:03 PM

102. By Very Sore Loser & Co (tm). See post #97 for the answers to BS allegations.

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Response to idwiyo (Reply #102)

Wed Apr 17, 2013, 03:38 PM

115. Yea, I know - I was just trying to get

him to post his RIGHT WING source. He does that a lot.

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Response to bitchkitty (Reply #99)

Wed Apr 17, 2013, 03:53 PM

116. Capriles.

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Response to azurnoir (Original post)

Tue Apr 16, 2013, 02:45 PM

8. Why the fuck would Venezuela care what we say?

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Response to Champion Jack (Reply #8)

Tue Apr 16, 2013, 02:50 PM

11. +1

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Response to Champion Jack (Reply #8)

Tue Apr 16, 2013, 02:51 PM

12. Bingo.... nt

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Response to Champion Jack (Reply #8)

Tue Apr 16, 2013, 03:12 PM

23. Yep!

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Response to Champion Jack (Reply #8)

Tue Apr 16, 2013, 03:51 PM

34. Because we'll infect Maduro with cancer just like we did with Chavez

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Response to Freddie Stubbs (Reply #34)

Wed Apr 17, 2013, 01:05 AM

67. We'll definitely interfere in their political process.

That is a certainty.

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Response to azurnoir (Original post)

Tue Apr 16, 2013, 02:50 PM

10. The hypocrisy is hilarious. nt

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Response to roody (Reply #10)

Tue Apr 16, 2013, 03:38 PM

32. +oo

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Response to azurnoir (Original post)

Tue Apr 16, 2013, 02:54 PM

13. Damn

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Response to azurnoir (Original post)

Tue Apr 16, 2013, 02:57 PM

15. If Venezuela isn't careful

Well just have our Supreme Court call the recount in favor of George W. Bush.

That'll teach 'em...

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Response to azurnoir (Original post)

Tue Apr 16, 2013, 02:58 PM

16. Obama disappoints

 

To think that this man is a socialist or Marxist is just ridiculous. That he is a willing puppet for the American military industrial complex speaks volumns about just how compromised he is. He works to promote the interests of the 1 percent and has thrown those who worked to elect him under the bus.

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Response to Stewland (Reply #16)

Tue Apr 16, 2013, 03:10 PM

19. And everybody on this board, myself too, voted for him.

Somehow the phrase, "Becareful what you wish for... You just may get it", comes to mind.

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Response to Stewland (Reply #16)

Tue Apr 16, 2013, 03:12 PM

20. Getting a little crowded under the bus, as well as mashed! n/t

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Response to Judi Lynn (Reply #20)

Tue Apr 16, 2013, 07:13 PM

57. Yeah but it's lively

and rowdy. So much richer than quiet and standing down. For me anyway.

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Response to Stewland (Reply #16)

Wed Apr 17, 2013, 02:46 AM

74. One can learn to enjoy the view of the exhaust pipe

as well as the complex flavors of catfood. It teaches personal responsibility and builds character.

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Response to Stewland (Reply #16)

Wed Apr 17, 2013, 10:10 AM

92. He's been really bad on Latin America policy.

What the fuck happened to "i'll meet with all leaders without preconditions"? He was opposed to the Cuba embargo in 2004, now he supports it, lol.

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Response to azurnoir (Original post)

Tue Apr 16, 2013, 03:12 PM

21. this just in from the "you've got to be fucking shitting me" desk

in other news, pot calls kettle black. film at 11.

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Response to frylock (Reply #21)

Wed Apr 17, 2013, 02:50 AM

76. ^^^^^^ THIS ^^^^^^^ +1000000000000000

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Response to azurnoir (Original post)

Tue Apr 16, 2013, 03:12 PM

22. The election was very close, why not do a full recount? n/t

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Response to OKNancy (Reply #22)

Tue Apr 16, 2013, 04:59 PM

45. Why not let our supreme court decide ?

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Response to bahrbearian (Reply #45)

Wed Apr 17, 2013, 10:49 PM

129. lol

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Response to OKNancy (Reply #22)

Wed Apr 17, 2013, 01:09 AM

68. Because, obviously, it didn't achieve the threshold required.

Why not respect the Venezuelan peoples' sovereignty?

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Response to ronnie624 (Reply #68)

Wed Apr 17, 2013, 02:14 AM

71. What "threshold required"?

Maduro won by less votes than López Obrador lost by in Mexico in 2006.

López Obrador still got an investigation of fraud and a recount in the alleged centers.

He didn't get a full recount though.

At the bare minimum the CNE should investigate the claims, but they will not do that, so what people are worried about, I don't know. Maduro wins. Just like Bush. Simple.

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Response to azurnoir (Original post)

Tue Apr 16, 2013, 03:15 PM

24. just like in the US

their man in Venezuela needs to take the appropriate steps. Instead of inciting riots, murder and mayhem, he can formally apply for a full audit, which he hasn't seen fit, strange though it seems, to do yet. If he has complaints, he can go to court. Just like it works in the US.

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Response to azurnoir (Original post)

Tue Apr 16, 2013, 03:17 PM

26. Everyone knows Chavez's brother was in charge of the deciding state.....

oh wait that was Florida 2000.

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Response to go west young man (Reply #26)

Tue Apr 16, 2013, 03:28 PM

30. Whoops! n/t

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Response to azurnoir (Original post)

Tue Apr 16, 2013, 03:21 PM

27. our "adminstration" should do more about vote counting at home and skip venezuela nt

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Response to msongs (Reply #27)

Thu Apr 18, 2013, 03:12 PM

142. Exactly, because we all know Romney stole the election.

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Response to azurnoir (Original post)

Tue Apr 16, 2013, 03:37 PM

31. This message has been brought to you by...

Exxon Mobile.

Where was the concern when USAID was down there tampering with elections?

Hillary pollster Mark Penn says the other guy won.

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Response to Mnpaul (Reply #31)

Tue Apr 16, 2013, 04:00 PM

35. He also worked for the little fascist Colombian President Alvaro Uribe,

as he tried and tried to get the Congressional Democrats on board with agreeing to the FTA with Colombia.

Really dirty scumball, Mark Penn. Hideous. He has been mucking around trying to do damage to the Venezuelan people's President for ages.

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Response to Judi Lynn (Reply #35)

Wed Apr 17, 2013, 01:47 PM

109. yet another reason

not support Hillary in 2106. Yes, this is off topic, but Mark Penn was her guy in 2008; and her campaign was a disaster in terms of both management and finances. She also originally chose the toe sucker Dick to help with one of Bill's campaigns.

People reveal themselves, and this goes to Obama too, by their choices of advisors and friends!

Mark Penn

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Response to azurnoir (Original post)

Tue Apr 16, 2013, 03:43 PM

33. Oh Really?

Tell that to the U.S. Supreme Court....

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Response to azurnoir (Original post)

Tue Apr 16, 2013, 04:02 PM

36. Recount

The corrupt U.S. government, right wing political organizations and vulture capitalists need to mind their own business.

I hope they never get their tentacles on the country and the people of Venezuela !!!!!!!!!!!!

I miss Hugo Chavez so very much !!!

Stay strong Maduro, Hugo Chavez would be proud of you !!!

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Response to azurnoir (Original post)

Tue Apr 16, 2013, 04:03 PM

37. The State Department said it was "difficult to understand"

Check with BushCo, "The Bush Crime Family."

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Response to azurnoir (Original post)

Tue Apr 16, 2013, 04:05 PM

38. All the manpower, all the cash, and all we could do is make it close.

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Response to retread (Reply #38)

Tue Apr 16, 2013, 04:12 PM

40. Karl Rove:

foiled again!!!

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Response to azurnoir (Original post)

Tue Apr 16, 2013, 04:05 PM

39. Why didn't Venezuela refuse to accept our election results in 2000 and 2004.

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Response to azurnoir (Original post)

Tue Apr 16, 2013, 04:29 PM

41. Wish Venezuela had demanded a full recount of the

Bush/Gore election.

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Response to Downwinder (Reply #41)

Tue Apr 16, 2013, 05:32 PM

49. I wish our own Senate had demanded a full recount of the Bush/Gore election

Or even just one Senator

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Response to Mnpaul (Reply #49)

Wed Apr 17, 2013, 01:59 PM

112. Thank you for posting this

reminder of the travesty of 2000 and the complicity of Senate Democrats

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Response to Mnpaul (Reply #49)

Wed Apr 17, 2013, 02:02 PM

113. One more thing

Bravo for the Congressional Black Caucus and the late Patsy Mink from Hawaii!

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Response to Mnpaul (Reply #49)

Wed Apr 17, 2013, 11:36 PM

134. My heart broke in half that day. n/t

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Response to azurnoir (Original post)

Tue Apr 16, 2013, 04:36 PM

42. Is our president channeling Bush more every day?

Or does it just seem that way?

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Response to azurnoir (Original post)

Tue Apr 16, 2013, 04:46 PM

43. The US needs to stop acting like Capitalism = Freedom

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Response to azurnoir (Original post)

Tue Apr 16, 2013, 05:02 PM

46. count every vote, what's the problem?? n/t

s

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Response to Bacchus4.0 (Reply #46)

Tue Apr 16, 2013, 08:30 PM

62. a hostile foreign government challenging an election?

Wtf

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Response to Doctor_J (Reply #62)

Wed Apr 17, 2013, 02:17 AM

73. The US is not "challening an election."

They are simply saying for the democratic process to go forward.

If there is no investigation, audit, or recount, the CNE and Maduro's legitimacy will be in question for the other 49% of people who voted for the other guy.

That means long term democratic instability.

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Response to joshcryer (Reply #73)

Wed Apr 17, 2013, 08:59 AM

85. Really?

Here is the first line

The Obama administration is refusing to accept the official results of Venezuela's weekend presidential election


Like I said,

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Response to Doctor_J (Reply #85)

Wed Apr 17, 2013, 09:15 AM

87. Right, but that's not saying they think the other guy won.

That's saying that the electoral process where the other guy is making noise should be heeded.

Capriles looks like he's going to jail, so it's just going to get worse, because those 49% who voted for him probably won't like that very much.

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Response to joshcryer (Reply #87)

Wed Apr 17, 2013, 01:16 PM

104. Of course they wouldn't like it! Capriles best buddies from CIA will try their best to make it worse

Wouldn't be the first time.

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Response to azurnoir (Original post)

Tue Apr 16, 2013, 05:04 PM

47. um...The State Department doesn't have the best record on these matters

See: Honduras, Nicaragua, etc. etc...

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Response to azurnoir (Original post)

Tue Apr 16, 2013, 05:29 PM

48. Humph. He won by over 50% of the vote

Unlike our dictator in Canada who "won a majority" with 39%. Chairman Harper probably complained to Venezuela on behalf of the oil companies too.

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Response to azurnoir (Original post)

Tue Apr 16, 2013, 05:39 PM

50. I think the US should start at home first

Count every vote here in the US. I'm pretty sure that although Obama won this year, he probably won by a lot bigger margin than given. And there may have been a number of congressional districts that, were the total votes counted, could have flipped from red to blue.

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Response to azurnoir (Original post)

Tue Apr 16, 2013, 05:50 PM

51. Looks like it isn't just the GOP who is immune to irony.

For some reason, I'm flashing on Matthew 7:5 right now.

-- Mal

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Response to azurnoir (Original post)

Tue Apr 16, 2013, 05:57 PM

52. We'd accept the results in a heartbeat if it was a RW fascist dicator who'd gotten elected.

They're great for business!

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Response to azurnoir (Original post)

Tue Apr 16, 2013, 06:02 PM

53. Seriously? Heh..? Like we have any standing????

 

Fuck what the US wants

VIVA MADURO!!!!



VIVA SOCIALISMO!!!!

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Response to azurnoir (Original post)

Tue Apr 16, 2013, 06:26 PM

54. If only the US ran such great elections

........................

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Response to azurnoir (Original post)

Tue Apr 16, 2013, 07:53 PM

58. Yes, keep recounting the votes until the candidate favored by our corporations wins.

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Response to azurnoir (Original post)

Tue Apr 16, 2013, 08:09 PM

59. But the coups in Honduras and Paraguay are a-OK.

Give me a fucking break.

I'm almost happy that there is contention about the Venezuelan election, just for the schadenfreude.

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Response to azurnoir (Original post)

Tue Apr 16, 2013, 08:13 PM

60. Venezuela nationalized their oil

This gives the United States good cause to overthrow their government so as to solidify the monopoly of of big oil on the international market. We're only about free markets when they benefit the wealthy elites.

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Response to azurnoir (Original post)

Tue Apr 16, 2013, 08:29 PM

61. Ooooooh, the irony! I have to go lay down. n/t

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Response to azurnoir (Original post)

Tue Apr 16, 2013, 11:16 PM

63. I stand with Obama & Kerry on this one. Recount!

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Response to Pterodactyl (Reply #63)

Wed Apr 17, 2013, 09:35 AM

89. Kerry demanding a recount

It's about time!

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Response to azurnoir (Original post)

Wed Apr 17, 2013, 12:20 AM

64. This is as Alice-in-Wonderlandish as it gets...

--upside down, inside out and backwards.

1. In the United States, 75% of the votes are 'counted' by ONE. PRIVATE. FAR RIGHT-WING-CONNECTED. CORPORATION--ES&S, which bought out Diebold--using 'TRADE SECRET' code--code that the public is forbidden to review--with half the states doing NO AUDIT AT ALL (automatic comparison of electronic results to ballots--most because they HAVE NO ballot), and the other half doing a miserably inadequate 1% audit. And even if the fingernails of secretaries of state are pulled out and they are forced to do a recount--in the states that CAN do a recount--they only do 3% or so.

2. According to statisticians, and computer and election experts, 10% is the minimum audit needed to detect fraud in an electronic system.

3. Venezuela votes electronically, but uses OPEN SOURCE CODE--code that anyone may review and that belongs to the PUBLIC--and they do a whopping 55% audit--more than five times the minimum needed to detect fraud. Furthermore, Venezuelan elections are closely monitored by all the major election monitoring groups, by invitation of the Venezuelan government--the OAS, the EU, Unasur, the Carter Center and others, and Jimmy Carter recently said that Venezuela has "the best election system in the world." These groups do not just drop in on election day and make pronouncements. They help set up the system and monitor it all along the way. They KNOW what's needed--as to audits and other requirements of honest, transparent elections--and have repeatedly validated Venezuela's elections, including THIS election.

4. The U.S. State Department (Obama, H. Clinton) helped to legitimize the fascist military coup in Honduras by THE U.S. STATE DEPARTMENT holding an 'election' UNDER MARTIAL LAW, using entities like John McCain's INTERNATIONAL REPUBLICAN INSTITUTE to 'monitor' the voting. (John McCain has telecommunications and other interests in Honduras.) No reputable elections group in the world would touch that election. Talk about 'illegitimate.' Honduras has since become a Colombia-like killing field, as rightwing death squads murder hundreds of labor leaders, teachers, community activists, leftist politicians, journalists and others, and inflict a reign of terror on Hondurans, with every kind of oppression.

5. The U.S. (Obama, H. Clinton) did the same thing in Haiti--phoney election in which the party that represents 70% of Haitians was banned from the ballot!

6. As Mark Weisbrot has pointed out, the leftist Manual Obrador in Mexico lost the presidential election in 2005 by only 0.05% of the vote. Millions of Mexicans demanded a recount of Mexico's largely paper ballot system (but with highly riggable, PRIVATE electronics at the top of the chain, which the Bush Junta helped Mexico put in place). The U.S. (Bush Junta) immediately endorsed the rightwing candidate, Felipe Calderon (who also, like the fascists in Honduras and Colombia, has engaged in violent repression against labor leaders, community activists and peasants, in Oaxaca, and furthermore invited the corrupt, murderous, failed U.S. "war on drugs" into Mexico, for a bloodbath in the border areas--some 50,000 dead!) Why was that much closer election "legitimate" while Venezuela's (1.6% difference), with all of its safeguards and above-board systems, is not?


I am writing this for those of you who know instinctively that this U.S. government demand that Venezuela do a 100% recount is absurd. Your instincts are correct. I am also writing it for those who know nothing about these matters: Half the states in the U.S. cannot even DO a recount! Our system is 100% RIGGABLE by corporate CEO's whose far rightwing connections would make your hair stand on end.

Obama should be calling for 100% recounts HERE! Why isn't he? Why are our Democratic leaders as silent as the dead about OUR egregiously riggable system--and instead beat up on Venezuela, where they CAN prove, and HAVE proven, who was elected?

Not one elected official in this country can prove that he or she was actually elected. Not Obama. Not anybody else. NOT ONE OF THEM! Our system is UNVERIFIABLE, and has been rendered unverifiable DELIBERATELY--methodically, knowingly--and we can only wonder why and who is really calling the shots. WHO is picking and choosing among our already compromised and LIMITED political candidates--drenched with money, pandering to Corporate Media, and with ES&S/Diebold's noose around all of their necks? WHO is choosing who to give our power and our sovereignty TO? WHO is choosing our rulers? And are those "dark actors" the ones responsible for the wretchedness of this unrepresentative Congress, for the shackles on Obama, for the loony rightwing governors and state legislatures we see, and for the obvious wars being waged against the poor majority and all progressive policy?

And Obama--who surely knows all of this, and has to have agreed to it (along with other "deals" like no prosecution--and not even investigation--of Bush Junta war criminals)--dares to demand a 100% recount of Venezuela's election--a country whose president and whose poor majority DID EVERYTHING POSSIBLE to ensure a clean, honest, verifiable election system?!

It is just bizarre. It really is. Upside-down, inside out and backwards.

We really, really, REALLY need to understand this--however difficult and demoralizing it seems to be--because it is REALITY. Our system is rigged. It is anti-democratic, even to the very 'counting' of our votes. And it is producing office-holders--holders of OUR power as a people--who are clearly NOT acting in our interests, and are interfering against the peoples' interests in other countries--not just in the war zones of the Middle East but also in our own hemisphere. We need to face this. We need to expose it. We need overcome it--peacefully and democratically.

That is a difficult project, to say the least. But, hey, the people of this country have faced difficult projects before--on our long road to a fairer and more progressive society. We owe it to those who went before us, to straighten out the goddamned fascist disaster that has fallen upon us, starting with Reagan. And if Latin Americans--who have suffered so much grief at the hands of our ruling powers--can throw off those shackles, as they are doing in country after country, so can we.

The powers that control Obama KNOW that Latin America is undergoing a vast, deep, grass roots, leftist democracy revolution, and that Venezuela is the pioneer and inspirer of this amazing revolution. It has swept through most of South America, with strong leftists elected and re-elected in Brazil, Argentina, Bolivia, Ecuador, Uruguay, and soon to be re-elected in Chile (after a miserable rightwing hiatus), and into Central America (Nicaragua, El Salvador, Honduras until the coup). Their Corporate Media are doing their best to keep this information from us, precisely because they FEAR that we, too, will be inspired with democracy once again. And they REQUIRE their hand-picked office holders to LIE about Latin America's democracy revolution continuously and to engage in anti-democratic plots--with twisted lies like this one, about a 100% recount, and with worse.

Obama is obediently LYING. He has no other choice. And that lie--like the lie about the "constitutional crisis" in Honduras--is the visible element of a destabilization and overthrow plot, that Obama may or may not be in control of. I DO think that Obama was elected, by the way, but he was also PERMITTED TO BE elected, and that is the problem. We have been deliberately deprived of verifiable elections--and we had better be aware of how vulnerable this makes us to FUTURE Bush Juntas, beyond the misery of seeing a Democratic president propose cuts to Social Security and all our other current miseries. Worse is not only possible; it is likely, and it is all set up to have the APPEARANCE of legitimacy with no legitimacy at all.

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Response to Peace Patriot (Reply #64)

Wed Apr 17, 2013, 02:16 AM

72. The 54% audit requires observers. They didn't have observers in 10-15% of stations.

Surprisingly the same stations where voting irregularities hare obvious (Maduro getting 1000% the vote of Chavez).

If this happened here you'd be calling for an investigation.

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Response to joshcryer (Reply #72)

Wed Apr 17, 2013, 04:30 AM

79. looks like you are hallucinating again

The opposition had no observers in 10-15% of voting centers? What, are they complete idiots?

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Response to reorg (Reply #79)

Wed Apr 17, 2013, 04:46 AM

80. It is alleged they were forcefully removed.

The CNE should look into the allegations as Mexico did in 2006.

This is not unheard of.

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Response to joshcryer (Reply #80)

Wed Apr 17, 2013, 07:55 AM

83. no, it is NOT alleged

quit lying.

It is alleged (although these witnesses are probably lying just like you) that witnesses were removed from 283 voting places (out of a total 13682). That's slightly more than 2 percent.

http://www.ultimasnoticias.com.ve/noticias/actualidad/politica/claves---irregularidades-denunciadas-por-capriles-.aspx
http://ismaelgarcia.net/home/index.php/video-capriles-detallo-las-irregularidades-que-le-permiten-exigir-el-reconteo-de-votos/

The PSUV has announced they will publish all the actas today. We should be able to see if they are signed or not.

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Response to reorg (Reply #83)

Wed Apr 17, 2013, 08:13 AM

84. OK, I see where I miscommunicated.

I did not lie. They couldn't cover all the polling stations because some were in deeply rural areas so it remains that they didn't cover 10-15% of the vote.

So yes, you're correct that it's 2% that they allegedly were forced from but no where did I intend to say they were allegedly forced from 10-15% of the polling stations. The other 8-13% of polling stations were probably rural or small stations where having an observer wasn't as important or they just didn't have the resources. I mentioned that because people keep throwing the hot audit out there when the hot audit doesn't have any power in a place where there are no observers. (So even if they "only" were ousted from 2% of stations, there would be 8-13% more stations where they don't have 100% proof of the vote.)

It remains that 2% where they were allegedly forced from makes up more than 700,000 votes.

If this is not a cause of concern for you, I would suggest you project that possibility to an election here where observers claimed to not be allowed in a race where the campaigners were closer than 250k in polling stations where more than 700k voted.

PSUV actas should be posted here: http://www.psuv.org.ve/ in a couple of more hours.

It'll be interesting to look at them.

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Response to Peace Patriot (Reply #64)

Wed Apr 17, 2013, 01:54 PM

111. excellent post

I especially love:

Obama should be calling for 100% recounts HERE! Why isn't he? Why are our Democratic leaders as silent as the dead about OUR egregiously riggable system--and instead beat up on Venezuela, where they CAN prove, and HAVE proven, who was elected?

We all know the answer...

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Response to Peace Patriot (Reply #64)

Thu Apr 18, 2013, 05:33 PM

144. Great post - thanks!

 

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Response to azurnoir (Original post)

Wed Apr 17, 2013, 12:33 AM

65. What was Obama's opinion on the US election of 2000? nt

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Response to Incitatus (Reply #65)

Wed Apr 17, 2013, 01:51 PM

110. he didn't

have one; he voted present LOL!

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Response to azurnoir (Original post)

Wed Apr 17, 2013, 02:50 AM

75. Well, it's not their country, so there!

Can the State Dept. do something about American elections?

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Response to Coyotl (Reply #75)

Wed Apr 17, 2013, 10:07 AM

90. +1

Can we ever mind our own damn business? Good fucking god. Maduro is their President, get over it and move on.

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Response to azurnoir (Original post)

Wed Apr 17, 2013, 04:02 AM

78. Wow.

After the '00 illegitimate installation of Chimpy as POTUS, and then again in '04? Not to mention the CIA's likely involvement in Chavez's death?

Just wow.

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Response to azurnoir (Original post)

Wed Apr 17, 2013, 09:01 AM

86. I wonder how the US would react if say England wouldn't accept our election result?

Let them find their own destiny.

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Response to azurnoir (Original post)

Wed Apr 17, 2013, 09:24 AM

88. Oh, the irony!

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Response to azurnoir (Original post)

Wed Apr 17, 2013, 11:29 AM

97. Capriles Falsifies Evidence in Order to Claim Fraud in Venezuela’s Elections

Capriles Falsifies Evidence in Order to Claim Fraud in Venezuela’s Elections

Maracaibo, April 17th, 2013 (Venezuelanalysis.com) – Opposition leader Henrique Capriles has given falsified evidence to support his claims that there was fraud in Venezuela’s presidential elections on Sunday.

At a press conference on Tuesday, the opposition candidate listed several examples that he claimed were evidence of “irregularities” in the electoral process and in the vote count, and presented a series of slides to national and international media.

However, several of the examples given by Capriles as evidence of fraud are clearly false, as can be seen by consulting the results on the National Electoral Council’s (CNE) website.

As one example, Capriles listed three separate voting centers in which he claimed Venezuelan President Nicolas Maduro had gotten much higher results than Hugo Chavez had gotten in the previous presidential elections.

Capriles claimed that this was implausible, since overall Maduro did not get as many total votes as Chavez.

“In one voting center in Yaracuy, Maduro got 1000 percent more votes than Chavez did. How can anyone believe that?” he said.

However, the results from last year’s election show that the three voting centers that Capriles gave as examples were cases in which all the votes from that center had not yet been registered in 2012’s results when the election was called for Chavez, leading to an extremely low vote count from those centers for both candidates.

In the Yaracuy voting center, for example, a total of only 9 votes out of 75 were registered in 2012’s elections, 7 for Hugo Chavez and 2 votes for Henrique Capriles.

However, on Sunday all the votes from this center were registered before the election was called, leading to 73 votes for Nicolas Maduro, and only 6 votes for Henrique Capriles.

The same situation can be seen for the examples Capriles gave in Merida (2012 vs. 2013), and Nueva Esparta (2012 vs. 2013), centers at which there was a very low vote count in 2012.

Given the unusually low vote count in these centers in 2012, the votes for both candidates drastically increases when 2013’s results are compared to 2012.

In the Merida voting center, for example, votes for Capriles also increased by nearly 1000 percent, and were also much higher than the number of votes for Chavez from that center in 2012.

Other examples given by Capriles were also fabricated by manipulating the numbers of different vote tallies.

Capriles claimed that in some cases there were more votes than total voters registered at that voting center. However, the only example provided by Capriles is also false.

Capriles said that at a voting center in the state of Trujillo the number of voters for this center was 536, but that a total of 717 votes were tallied. However, CNE's results for this voting center show only 369 votes were tallied, not 717.

Communications Minister Ernesto Villegas explained during a press conference last night that Capriles had erroneously added together the votes from two separate voting tables, but was using the voter rolls from only one of the two tables.

To counter Capriles claims, government officials have pledged to publish online at PSUV's website all of the actual vote tallies from the thousands of voting centers around the country so that the public can see that the official results line up with the individual vote tallies.

Electoral witnesses from the Capriles campaign presumably signed off on all of the vote tallies, as they would have been present at the voting centers at the closing of the polls on Sunday.

The nature of Venezuela’s electoral system makes the kind of fraud alleged by Capriles nearly impossible. Witnesses from both sides are present at every voting center around the country, and a random hot audit of 54 percent of the votes is conducted at all of the centers in the presence of all witnesses immediately after the polls close.

The paper receipts that each voter deposits in a sealed box are counted to assure that they line up with the tally from the voting machines, and all witnesses sign the tallies to certify that they witnessed the audit.

However, Capriles claimed yesterday that his witnesses were forcibly ejected, often at gunpoint, from nearly 300 voting centers around the country on Sunday.

No evidence was provided for this claim, and no independent reports of this happening were registered by any major media outlets on the day of the elections.

Pro-Chavez political commentator Mario Silva responded to the claim last night by questioning how this could have happened without anyone noticing.

“Do you really believe that hundreds of witnesses could be forcibly removed from the voting centers without anyone saying anything? Why haven’t any of those witnesses made a denunciation or talked to the media?” he said.

Capriles has pledged to turn over all of his “evidence” of fraud to the National Electoral Council for review, and pledges to continue to demand a recount, or that the election be annulled.

The government has reported that 7 people have been killed so far in the violence that erupted around the country after Capriles claimed the elections were fraudulent.

Published on Apr 17th 2013 at 9.03am

This work is licensed under a Attribution Non-commercial No Derivatives Creative Commons license


http://venezuelanalysis.com/news/8665

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Response to Catherina (Reply #97)

Wed Apr 17, 2013, 12:58 PM

100. Wish I could rec this.

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Response to Catherina (Reply #97)

Wed Apr 17, 2013, 01:01 PM

101. Arrest warrant issued against Capriles.

Picked this up on Bloomberg's new ticker but this is the only link I could find for now.

Leopoldo López: arrest warrants issued against Capriles and I.

Venezuelan opposition leader Leopoldo López said on Twitter that an arrest warrant has been issued against him and opposition presidential candidate Henrique Capriles Radonski, for their alleged involvement in violent acts taking place following April 14 presidential election in Venezuela.

http://www.eluniversal.com/nacional-y-politica/130417/leopoldo-lopez-arrest-warrants-issued-against-capriles-and-i

When I find a link which isn't a whine I'll substitute that.

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Response to dipsydoodle (Reply #101)

Wed Apr 17, 2013, 01:13 PM

103. Wow, I just looked at his twitter feed

and this guy's a real piece of work https://twitter.com/leopoldolopez

Here's the arrest warrant, according to him. I see no name, no nothing

Aqui esta la orden firmada que me envian:


https://twitter.com/leopoldolopez/status/324376525464014848


The National Assembly is conducting a criminal inquiry as well they should but I've heard nothing about an arrest warrant either.

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Response to Catherina (Reply #103)

Wed Apr 17, 2013, 01:21 PM

105. Maybe its just a bus ticket.

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Response to azurnoir (Original post)

Wed Apr 17, 2013, 12:21 PM

98. It seems counterproductive for the US to weigh in on this...

I don't know the situation and if there was anything funky down there, but as soon as we weigh in and demand for a recount, we just take away from the legitimacy of the opposition. Now it's just easier for them to be dismissed as lackeys for the US government.

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Response to azurnoir (Original post)

Wed Apr 17, 2013, 01:41 PM

108. what a hoot

from the country that stopped the recount in Florida in 2000.

Yes, SCOTUS, did the stopping, but where were the PTB (the Democratic WH, the Senate) who sat back in acquiescence, especially when the Congressional Black Caucus challenged the "verdict." Not ONE Senate Democrat took a stand with the CBC.

This country is such a fraud.

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Response to azurnoir (Original post)

Wed Apr 17, 2013, 02:07 PM

114. Even the OAS just broke ranks with the US

It's Secretary General tried but it's kind of hard to insist on supporting that rejected neoliberal when your member states are vehemently against that.


The OAS recognizes the victory of Nicolas Maduro
17/04/13 - 12:17

The OAS Secretary General, José Miguel Insulza, today recognized the victory of Nicolas Maduro to ensure "respect for the decisions taken by the competent authorities", referring to the decision of the National Electoral Council (CNE) president elect proclaim government candidate.

Insulza's statements come after yesterday's harsh criticism by the Venezuelan Foreign Minister Elias Jaua for having supported the recount demands of opposition candidate Henrique Capriles.

Insulza also today expressed "deep concern" over the "deplorable acts of violence" that left seven people dead in the country and stressed the need for a national "dialogue".

...


http://www.clarin.com/mundo/OEA-reconoce-triunfo-Maduro_0_902909910.html

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Response to azurnoir (Original post)

Wed Apr 17, 2013, 04:20 PM

118. Still intervening in other countries' affairs on behalf of the rich and the corporations.

Why can't our leaders leave Latin America alone?

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Response to azurnoir (Original post)

Wed Apr 17, 2013, 05:11 PM

121. what a ridiculous joke

this should be a major scandal, but it won't be.

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Response to Enrique (Reply #121)

Wed Apr 17, 2013, 10:53 PM

130. What should be a scandal?

The fact that a country that has widespread voter intimidation and politicians actively denying people the right to vote (along with you know, giving the Presidency to someone who didn't win the majority of the vote) thinks it has moral standing when it comes to free and fair elections? American's should shut the fuck up, they have no room to judge on this issue.

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Response to azurnoir (Original post)

Wed Apr 17, 2013, 06:44 PM

124. How DARE Venezuelans once again defy the Petroleum-Industrial-Complex!

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Response to azurnoir (Original post)

Wed Apr 17, 2013, 09:55 PM

127. Maduro to the US: "Don't recognize anything. Your recognition does not matter to us,"

Maduro to the US: "Don't recognize anything. Your recognition does not matter to us,"
...

U.S Secretary of State John Kerry said Wednesday that he could not say if he would recognize Maduro as the president-elect or not.

"We think there ought to be a recount. ... Obviously if there are huge irregularities we're going to have serious questions about the viability of that government," Kerry said during a hearing of the U.S. House Foreign Affairs Committee.

His comments drew a stern response from Maduro, who said Wednesday in national broadcast remarks Wednesday that he "does not care" whether the United States recognizes his election victory.

"Don't recognize anything. Your recognition does not matter to us," Maduro said. "We have decided to be free and we are going to be free and independent, with you or without you. Your opinion is not important to us."

....

http://www.cnn.com/2013/04/17/world/americas/venezuela-elections/index.html

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Response to Catherina (Reply #127)

Wed Apr 17, 2013, 10:57 PM

132. Ooooo, that's gotta smart.

You know what, I decided I like this guy.

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Response to 2ndAmForComputers (Reply #132)

Thu Apr 18, 2013, 01:22 AM

137. Me too. These last few days my admiration for him has grown by leaps and bounds

I understand why Chavez loved him so much and entrusted the revolution to him.


“Chávez Seguirá Contigo” de Omar Acedo

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Response to Catherina (Reply #127)

Thu Apr 18, 2013, 08:32 AM

140. I live in Ecuador Catherina.

And this attitude is one of the reasons I love Presidente Correa. He is quite polite about it but his attitude towards the US is "we don't care what you think"

When he proposed opening an Ecuadorina naval base in Miami in exchange for a US base in Manta........well he had me right there.

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Response to azurnoir (Original post)

Wed Apr 17, 2013, 10:57 PM

131. We are coming for you baby. n/t

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Response to azurnoir (Original post)

Wed Apr 17, 2013, 11:49 PM

135. Is there some indication what these supposed irregularities were

that the State Department is accusing them of?

After all, we had plenty of irregularities in our own election a few months ago. We had people waiting over 8 hours in some places to cast a vote. I don't know how that can be considered right or "regular" by any means.

I'm no fan of the late Chavez, but refusing to accept other countries election results due to supposed irregularities strikes me as gross hypocrisy and arrogance. After all, who are we really to accept or deny others' elections, especially when our government is offering no evidence of wrongdoing? Now, considering there have been allegations of corruption in Venezuelan elections I would hope international observers were on the ground there. But I hope we get them too. There are far too many problems in our own elections...Especially considering this is about the other side not getting a recount. These allegations are kind of laughable.

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Response to fujiyama (Reply #135)

Thu Apr 18, 2013, 05:32 AM

138. Yeah ... their puppet didn't win ...

... that's irregular enough for the US State Department to have a hissy fit ...

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Response to azurnoir (Original post)

Thu Apr 18, 2013, 01:19 AM

136. National Lawyers Guild urges Obama to recognize new Maduro government


Announcement

National Lawyers Guild Monitors Conclude Venezuelan Elections Were Well-Organized, Fair and Transparent

April 16, 2013


A delegation of National Lawyers Guild (NLG) election monitors visited polling sites in five Venezuelan states on April 14 and found that the Venezuelan presidential election process was fair, transparent, participatory, and well-organized.

With over 78 percent voter turnout, Nicolas Maduro Moros was declared Venezuela’s new president with a 50.66 percent share of the 99.12 percent of votes counted.

“The U.S. would do well to incorporate some of the security checks and practices that are routine in Venezuela to improve both the level of participation and the credibility of our elections,” said NLG attorney Robin Alexander. She added, “The six polls I visited in the state of Carabobo were calm and well-organized and lines were short."

The five-member NLG delegation formed part of a larger team of over 130 people, which included former presidents of Guatemala and the Dominican Republic, electoral commission members, journalists, and representatives of human rights organizations from across the globe. Election monitors traveled to polling places throughout the country on Election Day.

The NLG delegation found the following: advanced voting procedures that prevent fraud through multiple fingerprint and voter ID certifications; accurate and efficient digital and manual vote calculation; active participation by party witnesses and national and international observers.

In addition, the NLG monitors found a reliable system in which 54 percent of all votes are randomly audited on Election Day. NLG monitors witnessed one such audit in Caracas in which the paper ballots matched perfectly with the electronic votes.

As a U.S. organization, the NLG emphasizes that the margin of victory for Nicolas Maduro, while small, is comparable to close elections in the U.S., such as the margins of victory for John F. Kennedy in 1960 and for George W. Bush in 2004.

The NLG calls upon the U.S. to honor the Venezuelan election as the nations of the world honor U.S. elections without question. Moreover, as recognized by Jimmy Carter, Venezuela's election infrastructure, with its secure electronic system backed by paper ballots, is "the best in the world," and therefore deserves at least as much respect as our own.

As NLG member and international human rights law professor Daniel Kovalik states: "In the end, it is the Venezuelans who must decide their own future and leaders and the U.S., in the interest of democracy, must honor that decision."

http://www.nlg.org/news/announcements/national-lawyers-guild-monitors-conclude-venezuelan-elections-were-well-organized

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Response to Catherina (Reply #136)

Fri Apr 19, 2013, 02:47 AM

147. It is hard to understand how Obama would ignore what the Carter Foundation has stated

every time it has been involved in monitoring an election in Venezuela since Chavez was elected. It's a real slap in the face to a fellow President, is my complete belief.

Thanks for posting this NLG statement.

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Response to azurnoir (Original post)

Thu Apr 18, 2013, 07:34 AM

139. Capriles advisor says he just wanted to cause a scandal. Capriles knew he lost. Audio

Being discussed in the Latin American forum right now



Presentator:

"They know quite well that they lost. You want to know why I say that? (...) one of the closest advisers to Henrique Capriles, who takes part in meetings every Monday in a place they call "La Peña" (...) They know and they say that the opposition lost. Lost the election. Now they are inventing this (points to newspaper), and remember that we said, right here, they were going to claim fraud. People said "paranoid", "always saying that"... They claimed fraud. They were already claiming fraud before April 14. (...)

---------------------
Phone calls:

Dr Luis Ugueto Arizmendi = LUA

Unidentified man: And what do you think about not recognizing (the results)?

LUA: Of recognizing it, because they have to make the counting, it seems to me that now we have to get as boastful as we can since they have been kicking us all this time, right?

Unidentified man: Well, this is true indeed.

LUA: So, I believe that's ok.

Unidentified man: And did you hear something about it being true that it's false, if it's true that the numbers are false or something?

LUA: It's already recognized, there's already an issue (decision) by the National Electoral Council.

Unidentified man: Ok, but when Capriles started saying he did not recognize it?

LUA: Because he wanted to make them recount everything.

Unidentified man: Ok. So, would you say this is the best scenario?

LUA: The best scenario? No.

Unidentified man: The best scenario after winning, of course.

LUA: No we didn't win, we lost.

--------------------------------------

Carmen Luisa: What else? How were things at the La Pena (meeting) yesterday?

LUA: Well, very busy, because the results hadn't come out yet, no one could get to Caracas, no one could pass through Caracas.

Carmen Luisa: No

LUA: Then when we saw Capriles' speech on television, people began to arrive, people, people, people filling the house again.

Carmen Luisa: What do you think Luis?

LUA: Think about what?

Carmen Luisa: Will this lead to anything?

LUA: No No, this is his own operation... to keep the interest (the attention) of his voters. So he has to stay very comfortable, not keeping his mouth shut, because he has to make a scandal, but being very comfortable with that.

Carmen Luisa: Yes, of course. But he has to do this for his elect(gets cut off)

--------------------------------------

LUA: How are things?
Unidentified man: Very good, I feel very good, very positive.

LUA: And I think you should.

Unidentified man: I think it's the best scenario, I think it's better to lose with these votes than to have won with 50,000 votes.

LUA: Losing? We won, this was an ultra win.

Unidentified man: Sure, but I still think it would be better for the future of the country if we had really won, really won with 50 thousand votes.

Source:
http://www.radiomundial.com.ve/article/asesor-de-henrique-capriles-reconoce-derrota-del-14-audiovideo

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Response to Catherina (Reply #139)

Thu Apr 18, 2013, 02:20 PM

141. so now I'm wondering how

our government will react, will the US 'accept' the results or what? I'm sure Venzuela is waiting with bated breath

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #141)

Thu Apr 18, 2013, 05:40 PM

146. Capriles has not addressed those statements.

And has to this moment not said he believes he lost.

I have to go but he's having a conference at 6:30 Ven. time.

Who knows what that crazy bastard is thinking.

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Response to azurnoir (Original post)

Fri Apr 19, 2013, 02:49 PM

151. They are trying to delegitimize Maduro's government

They lost. I doubt they will accept the results of the full audit. They are setting the narrative that Maduro is anti-democratic and won in rigged elections. If there is a violent response to the audit results, they are probably following a script and will then appeal for US intervention to "protect democracy" or something.

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Response to azurnoir (Original post)

Fri Apr 19, 2013, 03:52 PM

153. Like Venezuela cares what we think.

Wish we were this gungho during the 2000 Selection.

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Response to azurnoir (Original post)

Tue May 14, 2013, 11:06 PM

155. Venezuela's Election System Holds Up As A Model For The World

5/14/2013 @ 12:01PM |1,061 views
Venezuela's Election System Holds Up As A Model For The World

This article is by Eugenio Martinez, who covers elections for Venezuela’s newspaper El Universal and is the host of the weekly TV show El Termómetro.

~snip~
Venezuela employs one of the most technologically advanced verifiable voting systems in the world, designed to protect voters from fraud and tampering and ensure the accuracy of the vote count. Accuracy and integrity are guaranteed from the minute voters walk into the polls to the point where a final tally is revealed.

The system Venezuela uses has some of the most advanced and voter-friendly security features in modern elections. Voters use a touch-sensitive electronic pad to make and confirm their choices. After confirmation, the electronic vote is encrypted and randomly stored in the machine’s memories. Voters audit their own vote by reviewing a printed receipt that they then place into a physical ballot box.

At the end of Election Day, each voting machine computes and prints an official tally, called a precinct count. It transmits an electronic copy of the precinct count to the servers in the National Electoral Council’s central facility, where overall totals are computed.

By mutual agreement between the contenders, 52.98% of the ballot boxes are chosen at random, opened, and their tallies compared with the corresponding precinct counts. This audit step ensures that no vote manipulation has occurred at the polling place. The extent of this audit, the widest in automatic elections, leaves little room for questioning.

More:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/forbesleadershipforum/2013/05/14/venezuelas-election-system-holds-up-as-a-model-for-the-world/

The source of this article is El Universo, a virulently anti-Chavez paper in Caracas.

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Response to Judi Lynn (Reply #155)

Tue May 14, 2013, 11:31 PM

156. Sounds better than ours.

We select ours by supreme court.

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