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Tue Mar 12, 2013, 10:06 PM

Venezuela to probe Chavez cancer poisoning accusation

Source: Reuters

Venezuela will set up a formal inquiry into claims that deceased President Hugo Chavez's cancer was the result of poisoning by his enemies abroad, the government said.

Foes of the government view the accusation as a typical Chavez-style conspiracy theory intended to feed fears of "imperialist" threats to Venezuela's socialist system and distract people from daily problems.

Acting President Nicolas Maduro vowed to open an investigation into the claims, first raised by Chavez after he was diagnosed with the disease in 2011.

"We will seek the truth," Maduro told regional TV network Telesur. "We have the intuition that our commander Chavez was poisoned by dark forces that wanted him out of the way."

Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/venezuela-probe-chavez-cancer-poisoning-accusation-010128851.html

173 replies, 17870 views

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Arrow 173 replies Author Time Post
Reply Venezuela to probe Chavez cancer poisoning accusation (Original post)
Zorro Mar 2013 OP
msongs Mar 2013 #1
Drale Mar 2013 #2
Coyotl Mar 2013 #101
Drale Mar 2013 #108
Exultant Democracy Mar 2013 #113
Bradical79 Apr 2013 #161
Exultant Democracy Apr 2013 #169
Bradical79 Apr 2013 #171
Ken Burch Apr 2013 #173
Submariner Mar 2013 #3
RKP5637 Mar 2013 #4
RZM Mar 2013 #13
geek tragedy Mar 2013 #5
Duer 157099 Mar 2013 #10
geek tragedy Mar 2013 #12
reorg Mar 2013 #17
geek tragedy Mar 2013 #18
reorg Mar 2013 #21
geek tragedy Mar 2013 #22
reorg Mar 2013 #23
geek tragedy Mar 2013 #24
reorg Mar 2013 #25
geek tragedy Mar 2013 #26
reorg Mar 2013 #49
geek tragedy Mar 2013 #50
reorg Mar 2013 #58
geek tragedy Mar 2013 #59
reorg Mar 2013 #63
geek tragedy Mar 2013 #64
reorg Mar 2013 #91
mikeysnot Mar 2013 #71
Ken Burch Mar 2013 #131
geek tragedy Mar 2013 #132
geek tragedy Mar 2013 #19
Duer 157099 Mar 2013 #65
geek tragedy Mar 2013 #66
Duer 157099 Mar 2013 #67
geek tragedy Mar 2013 #69
Duer 157099 Mar 2013 #73
geek tragedy Mar 2013 #74
Duer 157099 Mar 2013 #81
geek tragedy Mar 2013 #83
Duer 157099 Mar 2013 #85
geek tragedy Mar 2013 #86
Duer 157099 Mar 2013 #87
geek tragedy Mar 2013 #90
COLGATE4 Mar 2013 #27
Duer 157099 Mar 2013 #68
Dash87 Apr 2013 #153
reorg Mar 2013 #89
geek tragedy Mar 2013 #92
reorg Mar 2013 #94
geek tragedy Mar 2013 #95
reorg Mar 2013 #96
Coyotl Mar 2013 #102
geek tragedy Mar 2013 #106
Archae Mar 2013 #6
mikeysnot Mar 2013 #7
geek tragedy Mar 2013 #8
mikeysnot Mar 2013 #29
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mikeysnot Mar 2013 #33
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Bay Boy Mar 2013 #105
geek tragedy Mar 2013 #107
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Ghost Dog Mar 2013 #136
mikeysnot Mar 2013 #143
naaman fletcher Apr 2013 #151
cstanleytech Mar 2013 #9
geek tragedy Mar 2013 #20
Archae Mar 2013 #11
Coyotl Mar 2013 #109
hrmjustin Mar 2013 #14
musical_soul Mar 2013 #15
davidpdx Mar 2013 #16
mikeysnot Mar 2013 #32
davidpdx Mar 2013 #97
mikeysnot Mar 2013 #98
tblue Mar 2013 #110
Cal Carpenter Mar 2013 #28
geek tragedy Mar 2013 #31
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mikeysnot Mar 2013 #38
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Cal Carpenter Mar 2013 #44
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mikeysnot Mar 2013 #56
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COLGATE4 Mar 2013 #51
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yurbud Mar 2013 #53
mikeysnot Mar 2013 #57
geek tragedy Mar 2013 #62
mikeysnot Mar 2013 #76
yurbud Mar 2013 #77
mikeysnot Mar 2013 #80
geek tragedy Mar 2013 #82
yurbud Mar 2013 #88
geek tragedy Mar 2013 #93
Brayshawna Williams Mar 2013 #54
Coyotl Mar 2013 #103
tblue Mar 2013 #111
Judi Lynn Mar 2013 #116
formercia Mar 2013 #122
Ghost Dog Mar 2013 #135
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formercia Mar 2013 #139
Judi Lynn Mar 2013 #141
formercia Mar 2013 #146
Ghost Dog Apr 2013 #170
Bradical79 Apr 2013 #166
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jzodda Mar 2013 #123
nomorenomore08 Mar 2013 #130
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Response to Zorro (Original post)

Tue Mar 12, 2013, 10:11 PM

1. sounds like a foregone conclusion is at hand nt

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Response to Zorro (Original post)

Tue Mar 12, 2013, 10:25 PM

2. The paranoia is sickening

I hope the government doesn't lose its mind now and fall into civil war if Hugo's officials try to take power.

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Response to Drale (Reply #2)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 09:50 AM

101. If paranoia is sickening, why do you express paranoia?

Get a grip on reality. Governments poison people. Governments kill people, and everyone knows it. Thus, it is reasonable, not paranoid, to suspect that this could have happened.

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Response to Coyotl (Reply #101)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 11:48 AM

108. Um no its not

because Hugo was going on well documented trips to Cuba to be treated for cancer and he died from .....shocking.....cancer. Its the remained of the government trying to amp up the fear against the US but for what reason I'm not sure.

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Response to Drale (Reply #108)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 01:22 PM

113. The justifible theory is that much like the US tried to assasinate Castro the succeeded with Chavez

The idea the the CIA has a weapon which give people cancer dates back to the 80's if I recall. I give it at most 15% chance to be true, but it isn't outside the realm of possibility. Considering the massive amount of anti-chavez propaganda and outright lies the US has promulgated about the regime and their support of the illegal coup attempt against Chavez it would be impossible for the government not to at least do it due diligence.

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Response to Exultant Democracy (Reply #113)

Fri Apr 19, 2013, 11:07 AM

161. 15%? based on what?

Explain how such a rediculous weapon would work.

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Response to Bradical79 (Reply #161)

Fri Apr 19, 2013, 03:37 PM

169. At most 15% is very different then 15%, you need to read closer. Your answer is also in the text.

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Response to Exultant Democracy (Reply #169)

Sat Apr 20, 2013, 04:28 PM

171. I read just fine.

You threw out a random number range and "the 80"s is a pretty weak source lol.

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Response to Drale (Reply #2)

Sat Apr 20, 2013, 06:00 PM

173. "if Hugo's officials try to take power"?

Uh..."Hugo's officials", i.e., his party, just WON THE FREAKING ELECTION. They already are in power.

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Response to Zorro (Original post)

Tue Mar 12, 2013, 10:29 PM

3. In memory of Hugo Chavez

I have inscribed his initials on my bathroom sink faucets.

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Response to Submariner (Reply #3)

Tue Mar 12, 2013, 10:44 PM

4. I was slow on that one! n/t

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Response to Submariner (Reply #3)

Wed Mar 13, 2013, 02:46 PM

13. LOL

 

Plus you can switch them around if you're feeling a little Swiss.

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Response to Zorro (Original post)

Wed Mar 13, 2013, 01:09 PM

5. Just like Maduro's BFF Ahmadinejad investigated the Holocaust.

This is crazy talk, as anyone familiar with cancer or medical science in general will tell you.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #5)

Wed Mar 13, 2013, 02:13 PM

10. Without taking a position on this particular situation

are you suggesting that people who are familiar with medicine/science believe that you cannot transmit cancer?

Because scientists know very well how to give cancer to laboratory animals. How do you think it gets studied?

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Response to Duer 157099 (Reply #10)

Wed Mar 13, 2013, 02:32 PM

12. Care to link to a credible source backing up your claim

that scientists have a cancer drug to give to rats in order to create tumors so they can test cancer treatments on them?

FYI--certain strains of rats are bred to be prone to cancer, so there's a ready supply of cancer-stricken rats available to researchers.

http://www.informatics.jax.org/external/festing/rat/docs/F344.shtml

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #12)

Wed Mar 13, 2013, 07:14 PM

17. easily done

I'm going to stay out of this and just wait for the results of the scientific investigation which I am convinced the Venezuelans are quite capable of managing without input from anonymous forum posters.

But, since you asked, and I had already tried, just out of curiosity, to find such scientific articles, here is what came up within seconds, didn't do any other "research", though:

Summary

For 152 days rats were fed a diet containing 0.25% of N-methylbenzylamine and sodium nitrite in concentrations from 0.32% down to 0.01%. Esophageal tumors were observed in all rats of a group when the concentration of sodium nitrite was 0.32%, 0.16% or 0.08%. No esophageal tumors were induced when the concentration was 0.06%, 0,4%, 0.02% or 0.01%. Out of 8 rats receiving a diet mixted with 0.3% of sodium nitrite and drinking water containing 0.6% N-methylbenzylamine one developed a carcinoma of the nose, none developed esophageal tumors. 10 out of 10 mice receiving for 16 days a diet containing 0.1% N-methylbenzylamine and 0.15% NaNO2 developed carcinomas of the forestomach and partly papillomas of the esophagus but only 3 out of 10 mice died from carcinomas of the forestomach when the diet contained 0.1% of the amine and 0.1% NaNO2 (fed for 16. days). The problems involved in ingestion of low dosages of a secondary amine and nitrite are discussed shortly.

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2FBF00284420?LI=true

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Response to reorg (Reply #17)

Wed Mar 13, 2013, 08:20 PM

18. Yes, they expose rats without cancer to potential carcinogens. As experiments.

You said they "know how to give cancer to rats, how else do you think it gets studied."

That's different. The goal isn't to give rats cancer, and treat the cancer. it's to see which chemicals cause rumors.



Moreover, unless Hugo Chavez had been bred to be cancer-prone and was in a laboratory being fed carcinogens for 152 days in a row under CIA supervision, not the same thing.

The Venezuelans aren't going to do a scientific study, since the allegations are the product of mixing superstition, ignorance of science, and a political agenda.

But, maybe a Koch brothers think tank can give them the science-free conclusion they're looking for. After all, it looks like they have anti-science counterparts on the far left.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #18)

Wed Mar 13, 2013, 08:32 PM

21. You are confusing me with another poster

I didn't say anything about cancer studies.

What I did was try and find scientific articles about inducing cancer, whether it is possible at all. The article I mentioned is from the seventies. So, yes, apparently it has been found to be possible quite a while ago (and has nothing to do with rats being "cancer prone").

Why do you even care? Why not wait for a result of that scientific probe and then see what kind of allegations are made, if any?

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Response to reorg (Reply #21)

Wed Mar 13, 2013, 08:41 PM

22. They were planning to embalm him.

Which means a toxicology/forensic examination would be impossible, with his tissue formaldehyde and methanol.

Which means there will be no scientific investigation, just anti-science nonsense from an insane/dishonest political hack.

The tobacco industry gives thousands of people cancer. But it takes them decades of two packs a day smoking for each cancer victim, and then only 10% get cancer.

So, yes people do give each other cancer, but it's also scientific illiteracy to claim that cancer can be weaponized as a tool of assassination.

10,000,000 times more likely Chavez gave himself cancer by eating too much meat and cheese.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #22)

Wed Mar 13, 2013, 08:56 PM

23. You were asking for a link

showing that cancer can be deliberately induced, I gave you the link.

Other than that, I'm not interested in your speculations.

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Response to reorg (Reply #23)

Wed Mar 13, 2013, 09:00 PM

24. No, you're interested in the speculations of a nutter like Maduro

I'm going to stay out of this and just wait for the results of the scientific investigation which I am convinced the Venezuelans are quite capable of managing without input from anonymous forum posters.


If you believe there's going to be a scientific investigation, Paul Ryan has a budget to sell you.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #24)

Wed Mar 13, 2013, 09:49 PM

25. Not really, but you seem very interested in this issue

Maduro did not speculate. He publicly stated that, as far as he was concerned, he had ABSOLUTELY NO DOUBT WHATSOEVER that something was off with Chavez' illness, due to the point in time it was contracted and the particular kind of cancer.

At the same time, he stressed there would be a SCIENTIFIC investigation. (IOW he would not - like the opposition - just go on and on spreading rumors based on personal impressions). So, I'm happy to wait for the results, if anything comes out of this, and for the answer to this interesting FOIA request:

We are writing to request the following information on behalf of the Partnership for Civil Justice Fund, the ANSWER Coalition (Act Now to Stop War and End Racism), and Liberation Newspaper, pursuant to the Freedom of Information Act, 5 U.S.C. § 552:

All records and documents, including but not limited to, emails, letters, cables or other communications, memoranda, notes, minutes, photographs, audio recordings, video recordings, digital recordings, intelligence assessments, communications, records or other data that relate to or reference or discuss any information regarding or plans to poison or otherwise assassinate the President of Venezuela, Hugo Chávez, who has just died.

This request in made in light of the U.S. government’s acknowledged history of knowledge and possession of information regarding, and/or participation in, attempts to assassinate foreign leaders. The acknowledged attempts by the U.S. Government to assassinate foreign leaders, include Fidel Castro, Rafael Trujillo, and General René Schneider Chereau (See, e.g.., January 3, 1975 Memorandum of Conversation between President Gerald Ford and CIA Director William E. Colby), among others .

This request is also made in light of the exhumation of Palestinian leader Yassar Arafat’s body to determine whether his death was caused by poisoning, including media reports that “he Institute de Radiophysique discovered abnormal levels of polonium-210” in his personal effects, Chris McFreal, The Guardian, November 27, 2012, Yasser Arafat Exhumed and Reburied in Six-Hour Night Mission: Samples Taken From Corpse of Late PLO Leader Will Be Used to Investigate Claims He Was Poisoned With a Radioactive Substance; Arafat’s Body is Exhumed for Poison Tests, New York Times, November 28, 2012.

http://www.justiceonline.org/docs/foia-request-hugo-chavez.pdf

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Response to reorg (Reply #25)

Thu Mar 14, 2013, 07:39 AM

26. Maduro's lack of doubt supports the insanity thesis. So does this:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/03/13/us-pope-succession-chavez-idUSBRE92C1FK20130313



(Reuters) - Late Venezuelan leader Hugo Chavez's influence may have stretched into the afterlife and had a hand in Christ's decision to opt for a Latin American Pope, acting President Nicolas Maduro said on Wednesday.

"We know that our commander ascended to the heights and is face-to-face with Christ," Maduro said at a Caracas book fair. "Something influenced the choice of a South American pope, someone new arrived at Christ's side and said to him: 'Well, it seems to us South America's time has come.'"

Jorge Mario Bergoglio of Argentina was elected in a surprise choice to be the new leader of the Roman Catholic Church on Wednesday, the first non-European pope in nearly 1,300 years.

"He (Chavez) may also call a constitutional assembly in Heaven at any moment to change the (Catholic) church on Earth so the people, the pure people of Christ, may govern the world," Maduro added of his mentor.


That FOIA request is what I would expect from the Stalinist freak show at ANSWER.

I do hope Maduro wins--the man is comedy gold.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #26)

Thu Mar 14, 2013, 02:24 PM

49. He is indeed a gifted public speaker with a great sense for comedy

What is even more funny is how certain critics in the media are too dumb to recognize when someone is speaking with irony. Kind of reminds me of the latest Oscars scandal.

You can watch Maduro's stand-up routine here and how it is greeted with appreciating laughter from his audience:



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Response to reorg (Reply #49)

Thu Mar 14, 2013, 02:29 PM

50. When someone peddles batshit insane conspiracy theories, it

becomes very difficult to tell what they mean as satire and what they mean earnestly.

Honestly, Hugo Chavez talking to god is more plausible than the US giving him cancer.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #50)

Thu Mar 14, 2013, 03:20 PM

58. No, you are still confused, apparently

although it took you only a minute - after watching what he actually said and how he was saying it - to realize the error of your ways and how easily you were being manipulated by certain voices in the media.

I don't see anybody "peddling conspiracy theories" here. There is a general assumption, however, due to historical precedent, that some countries may be willing to engage in assassinations of inconvenient foreign leaders. So, if one such leading personality who was considered antagonistic to the interests of certain states dies a premature death, it is only natural that his supporters and friends insist it should be investigated.

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Response to reorg (Reply #58)

Thu Mar 14, 2013, 03:27 PM

59. No, I can't view video at work, I was taking what you said

in good faith.

Again, the notion that that great powers would assassinate someone is not unreasonable. No one is disputing that point.

The claim that they would do so by giving someone cancer is not something rational people take seriously. It is most definitely "peddling a conspiracy theory" in the tradition of Birthers and 911 or Sandy Hook Truthers.

Those that believe such nonsense believe it for the same reason rightwingers believe in birtherism--political ideology overriding any interest in rationalism, science, and evidence. It reflects an emotional investment on the part of true believers.

It is the province of cranks and fantasists. Given the ideology of those advancing it, the most immediate historical parallel is Lysenkoism.

Indeed, no rational person has yet supported this thesis.

Here is the conclusion of people who understand cancer, medical science, and rationalism:
Dr. Elmer Huerta, an oncologist and past president of the American Cancer Society, told CNN en Español Tuesday that assertions that injections or poisons could have caused Chavez's cancer have "absolutely no scientific substance."

"Science cannot sustain this hypothesis," Huerta said.



http://www.cnn.com/2013/03/12/world/americas/venezuela-chavez-death-investigation/index.html

Fascinating that the Chavistas and the Koch brothers have an equal disregard for science. Must be an oil thing.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #59)

Thu Mar 14, 2013, 03:47 PM

63. "the notion that great powers would assassinate someone is not unreasonable"

and you can rest assured that Maduro and the PSUV will capitalize on this undisputed truth during the election campaign.

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Response to reorg (Reply #63)

Thu Mar 14, 2013, 03:48 PM

64. Sure, they'll exploit Chavez's death for all of the political benefit

Last edited Thu Mar 14, 2013, 05:30 PM - Edit history (1)

they can.

That's how hacks roll.

One final thought:

No scientific investigation could ever establish a cause of cancer. Why cells decide to start dividing and mutating is not provable.

So, the claim of the investigation being "scientific" is less credible than that made by Koch Brothers funded climate studies.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #64)

Thu Mar 14, 2013, 06:21 PM

91. the opposition and their loudspeakers here have certainly focused on Chavez' death

for a long time now. It's as if nothing else matters to them.

Whatever may surface as a result of the investigation will certainly have little effect on the election, though, and much less on the actual policies Maduro and the PSUV are going to pursue.

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Response to reorg (Reply #23)

Thu Mar 14, 2013, 04:16 PM

71. your wasting your time

he is a stick in the mud. And very belligerent stick in the mud. With a grudge over a leader he never met or voted for or against.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #18)

Sat Mar 23, 2013, 06:33 PM

131. "to see which chemicals cause rumours"?

Interesting.

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #131)

Sat Mar 23, 2013, 06:40 PM

132. I blame autocorrect. nt

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Response to reorg (Reply #17)

Wed Mar 13, 2013, 08:25 PM

19. By the way, 10/10 oncologists agree with me.

Dr. Elmer Huerta, an oncologist and past president of the American Cancer Society, told CNN en Español Tuesday that assertions that injections or poisons could have caused Chavez's cancer have "absolutely no scientific substance."

"Science cannot sustain this hypothesis," Huerta said.

Any scientific investigation into Chavez's death, Huerta said, could be complicated by the fact that Chavez's body has already been embalmed so that it can be placed on display in a Caracas museum.


http://www.cnn.com/2013/03/12/world/americas/venezuela-chavez-death-investigation/index.html

As I said, Maduro is either a cynical liar or a mentally unstable clown. Either way, he has contempt for science. And anyone who buys into his superstitious crap can sit next to the anti-vaxxers and climate denialist a.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #12)

Thu Mar 14, 2013, 03:59 PM

65. I have a syringe full of something

that I think will give you cancer. Actually not even a full syringe, just a few microliters. Would you agree to injecting it in yourself? Are you so certain that it won't work that you'll take that risk?

If the answer is no, then ask yourself why.

And then stop talking about this.

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Response to Duer 157099 (Reply #65)

Thu Mar 14, 2013, 04:05 PM

66. Huh? You're asking me if I'd be willing to inject myself with

a mystery substance with unknown carcinogenic and toxic properties, with no benefit provided?

Here's the point people are kind of overlooking:

assassination by cancer would only have about a .1-1% chance of actually working.

Exposure to carcinogens or or millisieverts of radiation sufficient to cause cancer within any reasonable degree of certainty would need to be massive--so massive it could not be disguised and would have other side effects.

People who smoke 2-3 packs of cigarettes their entire lives have a 10% chance of getting lung cancer.

What on earth diabolical assassination plot would choose such an ineffective means of assassination?



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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #66)

Thu Mar 14, 2013, 04:10 PM

67. It's a purely hypothetical question

If I present you with a syringe containing just a drop of some unknown substance, are you so certain that it won't cause cancer that you'd be willing to inject yourself with it?

What if I guarantee you that it isn't anything with an adverse acute effect? It isn't 'toxic' in that sense.

If you think there might be a very slight chance that such a (virus?) exists, then please drop the subject.

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Response to Duer 157099 (Reply #67)

Thu Mar 14, 2013, 04:12 PM

69. I wouldn't inject myself with an unknown substance ever.

Weird question.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #69)

Thu Mar 14, 2013, 04:18 PM

73. OK, thanks for playing.

Because it's totally impossible that someone could be involuntarily surreptitiously injected with such a thing.

I'm asking whether you believe such a thing exists. You say you don't, but the real test of your belief is whether you'd submit to it, even hypothetically.

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Response to Duer 157099 (Reply #73)

Thu Mar 14, 2013, 04:20 PM

74. Your argument is so incomprehensibly stupid

I am at a loss as to how to respond to it.

Last word is yours.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #74)

Thu Mar 14, 2013, 04:44 PM

81. We'll see

Let me frame it as simply as I possibly can:

Are you certain that it is impossible to inject somebody with 100 microliters of something that--and let's hedge just a bit here--*might* cause cancer?

How certain?

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Response to Duer 157099 (Reply #81)

Thu Mar 14, 2013, 05:07 PM

83. Certainly you can inject someone with something that

would increase the chance they would get a given form of cancer by a minute fraction. Maybe a .001% chance of a single dosage doing the trick. A chance so small it's nearly impossible to quantify. (remember that smoking over 200K cigarettes over a lifetime gives you a 10% chance of getting lung cancer)

Funny thing is that even if someone was injected with that dosage and you had video evidence of it, it would still be vastly more likely that they developed it because of other causes.



Does that strike you as a plausible assassination scenario?



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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #83)

Thu Mar 14, 2013, 05:10 PM

85. Peace

I'm trying to have a logical rational discussion with you, just to be clear

OK, what if that 100ul now contains a cocktail of many tumor-promoting viruses? Does that increase the odds sufficiently to worry you? It does to me.

All I'm saying is that it is within the realm of possiblity. Not that it happened, but that it is possible. That's all.

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Response to Duer 157099 (Reply #85)

Thu Mar 14, 2013, 05:22 PM

86. A couple of points:

1) As was noted I had in a discussion with someone else, cancer and carcinogens are stochastic, not determinative, causes of cancer at all but extreme doses (which would have other severe side effects due to toxicity etc). Stochastic means probabilistic and random, and unpredictable.

What this means is that if you give a certain dosage of a cancer inducing agent to say 100,000 people, you'll increase the odds of everyone getting cancer, but guaranteeing cancer for no one. And, what this may do is increase the rate of cancer from say 1500 out of 100,000 to 1650 out of 100,000.

In other words, it's highly, highly, highly unlikely-- even if you gave said cancer agent to a person in any appreciable dosage--that you would cause them cancer. In fact, even even if they did get cancer, it would still be unlikely that what you gave them caused that cancer.

2) You can't determine what caused cancer. This is what the tobacco industry leaned on for years. You can tell that there is cancer, but you cannot tell what caused the cells to act the way they did. There are statistical studies on risk factors that can point to probabilities, but that's over enormous data sets. For any given individual, no medical investigation could possibly provide evidence of foul play.

To sum it up: a cancer cocktail would have a very small chance (a fraction of one percent) of working, and there would be no way of proving that he was given cancer artificially even if it did work.

To put it another way: if the CIA wanted him dead, they know much more effective means of achieving that. The odds of a cancer attack working would be so small that it would be a complete waste of time and resources to harness the technology and infrastructure within the US and then waste a double agent with access to Chavez's body to carry it out.


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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #86)

Thu Mar 14, 2013, 05:39 PM

87. I understand what you're saying

I'm not talking about carcinogens in the environmental incidental sense, where exposure is limited. Even smoking falls into that category.

I'm talking about a cocktail of potent tumor-inducing viruses injected directly into somebody's body.

Athymic rodents are used in research because quick results are necessary. A rodent has a short lifespan relative to a human. So using nude mice just speeds up the process. That's not to say that the same injection in normal rodents wouldn't also cause cancer if given enough time.

I'm not saying that the injection results in instantaneous cancer. It obviously takes years to develop, no matter the cause.

I'm saying you can certainly boost the odds tremendously of someone getting cancer by injecting them with a potent cocktail of tumor-inducing agents.

That is all I am saying.

As for determining cause, if biopsy were conducted and viral genome were found and sequenced, and found to contain sequences not found in nature, ie engineered, well, that might be some sort of info that could be processed.

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Response to Duer 157099 (Reply #87)

Thu Mar 14, 2013, 06:16 PM

90. No viruses cause the kind of cancer Chavez got, btw.

The known oncoviruses cause lymphoma, skin cancer, and liver cancer

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Response to Duer 157099 (Reply #10)

Thu Mar 14, 2013, 09:07 AM

27. You are confusing 'transmitting' with 'inducing'.

Cancer can be induced in laboratory animals through a variety of methods. But cancer is not transmitted between animals.

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Response to COLGATE4 (Reply #27)

Thu Mar 14, 2013, 04:11 PM

68. Yes, poor choice of wording

Induce is the correct word.

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Response to Duer 157099 (Reply #10)

Fri Apr 12, 2013, 10:37 AM

153. Edit: Zombie thread.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #5)

Thu Mar 14, 2013, 06:14 PM

89. Yes, we have heard it all before ...

Soviet microwaves and a diplomat's death
By Rowland Evans and Robert Novak

Washington - The death of senior career diplomat Walter Stoessel from leukemia at age 66 is blamed inside the U.S. government on illegal Soviet bombardment of the U.S. Embassy in Moscow by microwave beams designed to intercept secret communications.

Proof cannot be obtained that Soviet beams saturating the embassy were responsible for cancer cells that killed ex-Deputy Secretary of State Stoessel. But inexplicable health problems among embassy personnel (including Stoessel, who was ambassador from 1974 to 1976) have convinced American diplomats that the cancer was induced by the radiation. In the words of one top-level insider, "Walt was killed, pure and simple."

During his ambassadorship, the U.S. government sent furious protests to the Kremlin. After months of dispute, the Soviets finally ordered the KGB and other intelligence operations to tone down the microwave beams. By then it was too late for Walter Stoessel. ...

http://is.gd/bMBT11

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Response to reorg (Reply #89)

Thu Mar 14, 2013, 06:22 PM

92. Robert "Douchebag for Liberty" Novak reporting during the Cold War?

Thanks for the laugh.

Note that was leukemia, which is a lot easier to induce than colon cancer or whatever Chavez had is.

Do tell me how the US would have managed to bombard Hugo Chavez with high doses of radiation inside Venezuela without anyone knowing or protesting?

But it is valuable for this concession:

Proof cannot be obtained that Soviet beams saturating the embassy were responsible for cancer cells that killed ex-Deputy Secretary of State Stoessel


Yes. It is scientifically impossible to assign blame for cancer to any single cause--it's genes going haywire. So much for Maduro's scientific investigation which has a per se impossible goal.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #92)

Thu Mar 14, 2013, 06:35 PM

94. I remember this story going through the papers

and it apparently went on for some 10 years. There were investigations, studies carried out, voluminous written assessments of the legal implications being made, the problem was considered "as one of the utmost seriousness" in the records of the Dept. of State (February 1976-January 1977, p 1021).

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Response to reorg (Reply #94)

Thu Mar 14, 2013, 06:42 PM

95. Radiation does cause cancer in some people.

However, it is highly, highly, highly unlikely to cause cancer in any single person. It is also much more likely to cause several forms of cancer--especially leukemia--than it is to cause the cancer that killed Chavez.

And there is no scientific way of determining what causes any single incident of cancer in a person.

There has not been alleged a single incident in which an American operative exposed Chavez to a cancer causing agent. It has not been explained why the Americans would choose a method with a >99.9% chance of failing to carry out such an assassination.

In short, the allegations are less credible than claims that a missile hit the pentagon rather than an airplane doing so.

But, it's an anti-imperialist form of anti-science theory, so all is Pravda. Lysenkoism is the true path forward!

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #95)

Thu Mar 14, 2013, 07:20 PM

96. There will be an investigation

but I am not aware of any "allegation".

Maduro gave expression to a gut feeling, it has also been mentioned that at some point there was an "intuition", Chavez said something to the effect that it almost seemed as if someone was doing it on purpose when he, and several other progressive leaders in LA within a relative short period of time were diagnosed with cancer.

Given what you have already admitted, that certain states would probably do it if they could, such a gut feeling or intuition is just a natural reaction. If any suspicion of interference can safely be ruled out, a scientific investigation will surely make such reassuring findings public.

No need to speculate at this point without being privy to specific information. You don't know what kind of cancer he had, you don't know if there was "a single incident" or possibly many over a longer period of time during which he could have been exposed to something. I believe cancer research is a complex field and I doubt you have any particular expertise beyond what is commonly known, given what you have presented so far.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #5)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 09:52 AM

102. Obviously you are unaware of the weapons that have this capability.

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Response to Coyotl (Reply #102)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 11:22 AM

106. Which weapons have the capability of targeting someone

with the intent of giving them cancer, and having a very plausible chance of success?

Because that didn't even happen at Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

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Response to Zorro (Original post)

Wed Mar 13, 2013, 01:15 PM

6. Reminds me of that "Arafat was poisoned" so-called "investigation."

Long on accusations, facts are nonexistent.

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Response to Zorro (Original post)

Wed Mar 13, 2013, 01:18 PM

7. happened before...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_of_Alexander_Litvinenko

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/24/world/europe/25spycnd.html?_r=0

Radiation Poisoning Killed Ex-Russian Spy

By ALAN COWELL
Published: November 24, 2006

LONDON, Nov. 24 — The British authorities said today that Alexander V. Litvinenko, a former Russian K.G.B. officer and foe of the Kremlin, died of radiation poisoning here in what a senior official called “an unprecedented event.”

Police said radioactive traces were found at three London locations, underscoring the highly unusual nature of the whole episode, which began when Mr. Litvinenko first complained of feeling unwell three weeks ago.

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Response to mikeysnot (Reply #7)

Wed Mar 13, 2013, 01:25 PM

8. That wasn't cancer.

Citing Litvinenko for the proposition that you can poison someone with cancer to assassinate them is like saying that the Kennedy assassination is proof that Chavez may have been shot by a phaser weapon as shown in Star Trek.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #8)

Thu Mar 14, 2013, 11:01 AM

29. Nice try

Radiation exposure can also increase the probability of developing some other diseases, mainly different types of cancers.

In small doses, I was just citing this as an example, Litvinenko was administered a large dose, small doses over time can cause cancer....

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Response to mikeysnot (Reply #29)

Thu Mar 14, 2013, 11:07 AM

30. So, the CIA managed to implant a source of intense

radiation in Chavez's colon without him or his security noticing?

Or did they manage to feed him radioactive food for years that didn't affect any other part of his body?


You're not making yourself sound any smarter.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #30)

Thu Mar 14, 2013, 11:46 AM

33. Lame insults get you nowhere

believe what you want....

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Response to mikeysnot (Reply #33)

Thu Mar 14, 2013, 11:47 AM

34. I'm not insulting. Just pointing out your ARGUMENT

that it's plausible that the CIA used radiation to give Chavez colon cancer is anti-science on a level with the anti-vaxxers.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #34)

Thu Mar 14, 2013, 12:14 PM

37. NO.

I said it was plausible based on past experiences. Mocking condescension is not "proving" an argument false.

But you can believe what ever you want.

BTW, Thimerosal is a mercury based preservative that offers no medicinal, theoretical value to the drugs but is there to preserve shelf life of the vaccines and hence corporate profits. But that is another argument.

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Response to mikeysnot (Reply #37)

Thu Mar 14, 2013, 12:17 PM

39. Problem is you didn't cite examples of people

giving another human being colon cancer.

What you provided is like siting the Kennedy assassination to support an allegation that it's plausible that the CIA is using phaser weapons.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #39)

Thu Mar 14, 2013, 01:15 PM

47. Hey science guy

Chavez died of a heart attack not cancer...

Chavez died Tuesday at age 58 from a
massive heart attack,
according to the head of Venezuela's presidential guard. He had been battling an undisclosed form of cancer for 14 years.


http://abcnews.go.com/Health/hugo-chavez-death-highlights-heart-risk-cancer/story?id=18676612

The Cuba government and Venezuelan gov kept the form of cancer secret, so you are assuming he had colon cancer. he was treated in his pelvic area, so that could mean it was in his reproductive organs.

7) Reproductive Tract

Because reproductive tract cells divide rapidly, these areas of the body can be damaged at rem levels as low as 200. Long-term, some radiation sickness victims will become sterile.


http://www.atomicarchive.com/Effects/radeffects.shtml

Again radiation could have caused this not saying it did, but if the Venezuelan was privy to the type of cancer, that would lead them to surmise something fishy. Especially since he got it shortly after he was elected in 1998.


He had been battling an undisclosed form of cancer for 14 years.

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/hugo-chavez-death-highlights-heart-risk-cancer/story?id=18676612

And then the heart attack caused death, so there is always this.......

http://www.sott.net/article/232912-Assassinations-by-induced-heart-attack-and-cancer


The answer to the question - Can you give a person cancer - is yes. After nearly 80 years of research and development there is now a way to simulate a real heart attack and to give a healthy person cancer. Both have been used as a means of assassination. Only a very skilled pathologist, who knew exactly what to look for at an autopsy, could distinguish an assassination induced heart attack or cancer from the real thing.




I am not CT and I AM NOT STATING THIS IS TRUE, but they are privy to info you are not privy too. And like you, we are both assuming, only I am the only one to admit it.

You just respond with bad analogies and logical fallacies. Have a good day.

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Response to mikeysnot (Reply #47)

Thu Mar 14, 2013, 01:24 PM

48. You're only proving the idiocy of this conspiracy theory:

1) The form of death being a heart attack. Okay, so the claim is that maybe the US assassinated a terminal cancer patient and made it look like a heart attack? Okay, nothing loony about that . . .

2) If not colon cancer, then reproductive organs? Well, that makes them giving him radiation there MUCH more likely. Serious James Bond shit--the Woman with the Radioactive Vagina.

3) So, now the story is that the US gave him cancer immediately after he took office? Funny how that runs against every bit of cancer research which shows that induced cancer takes YEARS to develop.

Peddle that shit at Rense.com

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #48)

Thu Mar 14, 2013, 03:09 PM

55. Sorry

you can come off your hobby horse of self righteousness now.

The US government has NEVER assassinated anyone through clandestine means....

silly me.

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Response to mikeysnot (Reply #55)

Thu Mar 14, 2013, 03:34 PM

61. It is very telling that those peddling this nonsense

keep on reverting to the "oh of course the US would never do that" red herring.

No one is claiming that the US is above suspicion for assassinations.

What we are pointing out is that it doesn't pass the smell test scientifically.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #61)

Thu Mar 14, 2013, 04:14 PM

70. It is very telling the nonsense

is being passed on by those that that site "science" even though they do not site science in any of their arguments.

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Response to mikeysnot (Reply #70)

Thu Mar 14, 2013, 04:17 PM

72. Science.

Dr. Elmer Huerta, an oncologist and past president of the American Cancer Society, told CNN en Español Tuesday that assertions that injections or poisons could have caused Chavez's cancer have "absolutely no scientific substance."

"Science cannot sustain this hypothesis," Huerta said


http://www.cnn.com/2013/03/12/world/americas/venezuela-chavez-death-investigation/index.html

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #72)

Thu Mar 14, 2013, 04:22 PM

75. Right back at you

Cancer is a stochastic effect of radiation,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiation-induced_cancer

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Response to mikeysnot (Reply #75)

Thu Mar 14, 2013, 04:32 PM

78. (A) you're citing wikipedia, (b) you should know what every word

means before you use it.

Stochastic means:

Randomly determined; having a random probability distribution or pattern that may be analyzed statistically but may not be predicted...


In other words, there's no way to predict if someone will get cancer from a dose of radiation--it increases the probability but does not make it certain or even likely.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #78)

Thu Mar 14, 2013, 04:41 PM

79. attacking the messenger

I guess I could state that the Doctor you quoted may have an axe to grind coming from Peru, he could be part of the ruling elite class of SA that benefits from global corporate control of the natural resources in SA.

becoming a doctor is not cheap.

But then again I am using your "logic"...

Chavez was anti-colonialism and a threat to US hegemony in SA.

We invaded and carpet bombed whole nations for less transgressions.

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Response to mikeysnot (Reply #79)

Thu Mar 14, 2013, 05:08 PM

84. Again, your arguing politics not science.

Keep in mind there is zero evidence Chavez was exposed to increased doses of radiation. Also keep in mind that he did have several known risk factors for colon cancer, such as obesity.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #84)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 09:33 AM

99. Now you are really grabbing at straws.

by your reasoning ever ex football player should be dying of colon cancer... he was not that obese also..

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Response to mikeysnot (Reply #99)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 09:43 AM

100. Mike, do you have anything though that moves the cancer story from the

speculation category?
After all people die all the time from cancer around the world both the rich and the poor, the famous and the unknown just like people do commit suicide such as Vince Foster and who here remember the conspiracy rumors over that?

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Response to cstanleytech (Reply #100)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 10:04 AM

104. false equivalency.

But nice try...

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Response to mikeysnot (Reply #104)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 02:11 PM

115. mike, here is a link.

http://www.cancerresearchuk.org/cancer-info/cancerstats/incidence/age/

Adults aged 50-74 carry the greatest burden of cancer, with over half (53%) of all cancers being diagnosed in this age group. There are more cases in this group than in the elderly (in whom rates are higher), because the population size of 50-74 year-olds is larger.1-4 Slightly more cases are diagnosed in males (an average of 90,680 per year in the UK between 2008 and 2010) than in females (80,193).

And for the record, Chavez was 58 which is well within that risk group so you can scream "false equivalency" until you are blue in the face if you want but the statistics dont support you.

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Response to cstanleytech (Reply #115)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 04:51 PM

117. heart attack. and cancer



I have always stated that their suspicion is warranted, not that it happened.

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Response to mikeysnot (Reply #117)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 05:40 PM

119. My apologies as I know it will make you look bad

which is not my intention at all but http://www.health.harvard.edu/press_releases/cancer-treatment-can-cause-heart-disease

"For people with cancer, chemotherapy and radiation therapy can be life-prolonging treatments. They can also cause serious heart problems, reports the August 2012 issue of the Harvard Heart Letter.

Some chemotherapy agents are so toxic that severe reactions may occur while the drug is being given. With others, cardiovascular problems like high blood pressure, blood clots, arrhythmias, and stroke appear shortly after chemotherapy starts. Other chemotherapy drugs put people at increased risk for a future heart attack or heart failure. The Heart Letter lists the chemotherapy agents most toxic to the heart and their corresponding cardiovascular effects."

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Response to cstanleytech (Reply #119)

Sat Mar 16, 2013, 03:25 PM

121. Petty little man

you are.

Like I have stated before, I don't believe it is true, just possible. You believe what you want.

Life must be simple for you that you have time to flog the dead horse.

Petty...

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Response to mikeysnot (Reply #121)

Sat Mar 16, 2013, 05:05 PM

124. Pointing out facts isnt petty, calling someone petty for pointing out facts is though. nt

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Response to cstanleytech (Reply #124)

Fri Mar 22, 2013, 04:55 PM

125. you don't say...

you resemble that remark.

You Petty boy, you.

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Response to mikeysnot (Reply #125)

Fri Mar 22, 2013, 05:10 PM

127. Says the person ^^ who waits nearly a week to reply so I shall

give your reply the due consideration it deserves.

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Response to cstanleytech (Reply #127)

Fri Mar 22, 2013, 05:38 PM

128. Sorry

I don't live on the site, I have a life.

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Response to cstanleytech (Reply #115)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 04:52 PM

118. When he was first diagnosed

14 years ago he was not in the 50-74 range...

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Response to mikeysnot (Reply #118)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 05:44 PM

120. Mike, the thing is there isnt a single overall cure and age plays a factor it would appear

http://www.cancerresearchuk.org/cancer-info/cancerstats/survival/age/cancer-survival-statistics-by-age

"The reasons for the poorer survival in elderly patients require further investigation but include several factors such as less aggressive treatment for the elderly 1-3, and a smaller proportion of older patients being entered into clinical trials4-6, which are generally associated with higher survival rates."

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Response to cstanleytech (Reply #120)

Fri Mar 22, 2013, 04:57 PM

126. Elderly!!! he was 59!

I feel sorry for your friends you hang with that are older than 59..

Hilarious, elderly.

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Response to mikeysnot (Reply #126)

Sat Mar 23, 2013, 09:18 AM

129. Yes he was 59 which is within the stastical range

for lower survival rate.
But look, I am not saying its 100% impossible the cancer wasnt given to him because clearly its not 100% but without any evidence (unless you have such which you havent shared with us) to prove it was done all we can really go on here is the statistics for getting cancer and the related survival rate which sadly werent in favor of Chavez just like they werent in favor of my father who died from complications due to stomach cancer and both of my grandmothers who died from lung cancer.

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Response to cstanleytech (Reply #129)

Wed Mar 27, 2013, 11:34 AM

133. Where's your evidence?

I was honest in my assessment.

I pointed it out from the get go.

They are privy to info we are not.

They have suspicions and I agree they are warranted.

20% of the population there is Gringo Euro ruling class, he gave to the 80%.

He nationalized the Oil industry, he took from the Greedy and gave to the poor.

You cannot do that when you are under the sphere of influence of the Monroe Doctrine for the Multi-Nationals.

Whether he was killed or not or it was just coincidence, he is dead.

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Response to mikeysnot (Reply #133)

Wed Mar 27, 2013, 12:27 PM

134. Seeing as I dont believe the wild theory

of him being given cancer why should I be providing any evidence that such a thing happened?

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Response to cstanleytech (Reply #134)

Fri Mar 29, 2013, 11:10 AM

137. throwing your logic back at you...

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Response to mikeysnot (Reply #137)

Fri Mar 29, 2013, 03:08 PM

140. My post had facts though, yours had speculation without a shred

of evidence support it...........big difference.

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Response to cstanleytech (Reply #140)

Fri Mar 29, 2013, 06:25 PM

142. Good luck with that...

Not speculation yours was ten times more speculation than mine.

I have provided plenty of links pointing to the fact that Cancer can be man made and spread through nefarious means.

You just chose to ignore them.

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Response to mikeysnot (Reply #142)

Fri Mar 29, 2013, 08:56 PM

144. My, how pathetic.

The links I posted had statistical data pertinent to cancer but no rather than prove the data wrong you resorted childishness, grow up.

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Response to cstanleytech (Reply #144)

Thu Apr 11, 2013, 05:20 PM

147. Me grow up?

You are the one piously clinging to this ridiculous argument and won't let it go for nothing like some self righteous person of virtue, typing away and replying to my every response like trying to prove that you are relevant somehow in a silly online web forum that covers political opinions and such but you will still reply with stupid responses like; "typical", "Duh, your stupid", "your wrong", "I am this I am that", "I was scientific blah, blah blah", "Statistical Data, wahh-wahhh", going on and on about something not important like you "are getting to the root of some nefarious Conspiracy Theory" and just cutting and pasting some "what ever" search engine result and posting to some copy you just grabbed off of google like your some crusader doing opposition research solving the BIG Problems of the UNIVERSE!. Wow, thank the lord we have patriots like you cleansing the world of vermin and scum. You must have all the answers!

Why did I ever doubt you!

You are are sooo smart.

I just nominate you for the "SMARTEST PERSON EVER IN A WEB FORUM CHAT" award.

Thank, you, thank You, thank you for making me see the LIGHT! WEhhoooooo, I've been saved, HAL-A-Lew-YAA!.

Praise Jesus! Hail Satan.

This Has gone on so long I don't even remember the topic that I was originally posting too.

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Response to mikeysnot (Reply #147)


Response to mikeysnot (Reply #147)

Thu Apr 11, 2013, 06:32 PM

149. Yes, you.

Facts dont change because we want them to they only change if new data proves the prior facts were mistaken and so far you havent shown a single "fact" that refutes the statistical data though you have provided plenty of what ifs, maybes and could be's.

Oh and also you might want to consider responding in a more timely fashion to peoples posts as you are bordering on what is known as necroing.

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Response to cstanleytech (Reply #149)

Thu Apr 11, 2013, 09:12 PM

150. So your stalking me waiting for me to respond?

pervert.

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Response to mikeysnot (Reply #150)

Thu Apr 11, 2013, 10:11 PM

152. Clearly you are new to the forum..... that or an idiot however

I will give you the benefit of doubt and assume you are not an idiot and thus you must just be new and unaware of the fact that when someone replies to a post you made a notification is made in the My Posts section letting you know.

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Response to cstanleytech (Reply #152)

Fri Apr 12, 2013, 05:57 PM

155. Wow, you are soooo smart

calling names again, typical...

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Response to mikeysnot (Reply #155)

Fri Apr 12, 2013, 06:02 PM

156. So you are now saying I was wrong to assume you were just new to the forum

and unaware of the fact that when someone replies to a thread that a notification is made to inform you of such under the My Posts tab then? Ok, thanks for that update.

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Response to cstanleytech (Reply #156)

Fri Apr 19, 2013, 10:29 AM

160. View Profile

it works... try it sometime...

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Response to mikeysnot (Reply #160)

Fri Apr 19, 2013, 11:35 AM

165. You responded to that post days ago before mike

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Response to cstanleytech (Reply #165)

Fri Apr 19, 2013, 11:52 AM

167. Hah!

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Response to cstanleytech (Reply #152)

Fri Apr 12, 2013, 06:03 PM

157. wow man you are cracking me up with your BS

"I must be new"

Let me explain something to you young man. there is a little icon that looks like a folder that you can see how long someone has been a member and being new here(compared to me) you might want to learn something before you go on and on about bullshit and calling people "idiots" you have 5 times as many posts here than I and I have four more years on you as a member.

Calling me an idiot = projection.

Be gone peasant you bore me.

One more backup and I am done here for the week. I will look at your Crappola next week.

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Response to mikeysnot (Reply #157)

Fri Apr 12, 2013, 06:14 PM

158. You were the one that said I was "stalking you" mikey, I just thought you were new and unaware of

of the My Posts tab informing you of a new reply but you run along now and have a good weekend.

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Response to cstanleytech (Reply #158)

Fri Apr 19, 2013, 10:28 AM

159. "I just thought" thought wrongly you did.... Clueless you are...

&feature=share&list=PLx1Z_8Mg77sCqffbOrFdii37g6-gfjrLW

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #48)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 10:08 AM

105. Wait just a minute!!!

The Woman with the Radioactive Vagina? When was that movie in the theaters?
Which actor played 007 ?

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Response to Bay Boy (Reply #105)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 11:23 AM

107. Brock Landers. nt

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #107)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 01:17 PM

112. So I'm thinking to myself "I know that name from somewhere"

Googled it and LOL'd

That was an interesting movie.

And Brock would have been a great 007!

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Response to Bay Boy (Reply #112)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 01:46 PM

114. So would Chest Rockwell. nt

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Response to mikeysnot (Reply #47)

Wed Mar 27, 2013, 02:10 PM

136. Did somebody mention so-called "CT"? Like this you mean?

Sunday, September 30, 2007
Judith Vary Baker, Lee Harvey Oswald, the JFK Assassination, Monkey Virus Induced Cancer and Dr. Mary Sherman
Editor's NOTE:

I have read Edward Haslem's book (Dr. Mary's Monkey: How the unsolved murder of a doctor, a secret laboratory in New Orleans and cancer-causing monkey viruses are linked to Lee Harvey Oswald, the JFK assassination and emerging global epidemics, Edward T. Haslam, IPG, 2007) which documents the history of the development of the Salk Poliomyelitis (virus) vaccine and the contamination of the vaccine with Monkey virus ((SV 40, the abbreviation for Simian Virus 40), also known as Polyoma virus) which has been found to induce cancer in humans.

Haslem's book also outlines the work of one Judyth Vary Baker who participated in a clandestine biowarfare project in New Orleans (summer 1963) the intention of which was to develop a fast-acting cancer with which to kill Fidel Castro. The project was headed by famed New Orleans surgeon Dr. Alton Ochsner and the "hands on" director was cancer researcher Dr. Mary Sherman.

Haslam has extensively investigated the claims of Baker who alleges that Lee Harvey Oswald was involved in the project with her, Dr. Mary Sherman as well as David Ferrie and that Oswald and Baker had a romantic afair during the summer of 1963. He reports that Sherman was involved in irradiating cancer causing monkey viruses utilizing a linear particle accelerator which he proved was housed in a Microbiology laboratory in one of the Public Health Service buildings in New Orleans in 1963.

Haslam also suggests that the AIDs crisis may be related to covert biowarfare related research conducted in the 1950's and 1960's.

The following video's contain some of the Judyth Vary Baker interviews conducted by JFK Assassination researcher Dr. James Fetzer and an interview of Ed Haslem by Wim Dankbaar and Jim Marrs (who wrote the forward to Haslem's book).

--Dr. J. P. Hubert


What to Make of Judith Vary Baker: You be the Judge (Video interviews)...

/More... http://moralphilosophyofcurrentevents.blogspot.com.es/2007_09_30_archive.html


And, um, see also eg.

Induction of mammary tumors by expression of polyomavirus middle T oncogene: a transgenic mouse model for metastatic disease.
Guy CT, Cardiff RD, Muller WJ.
Source

Institute for Molecular Biology and Biotechnology, McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada.
Abstract

The effect of mammary gland-specific expression of the polyomavirus middle T antigen was examined by establishing lines of transgenic mice that carry the middle T oncogene under the transcriptional control of the mouse mammary tumor virus promoter/enhancer. By contrast to most transgenic strains carrying activated oncogenes, expression of polyomavirus middle T antigen resulted in the widespread transformation of the mammary epithelium and the rapid production of multifocal mammary adenocarcinomas. Interestingly, the majority of the tumor-bearing transgenic mice developed secondary metastatic tumors in the lung. Taken together, these results suggest that middle T antigen acts as a potent oncogene in the mammary epithelium and that cells that express it possess an enhanced metastatic potential.

PMID:
1312220

PMCID:
PMC369527

Free PMC Article

/... http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1312220

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Response to Ghost Dog (Reply #136)

Fri Mar 29, 2013, 06:28 PM

143. cstanleytech

Has left the house... don't show him things that counteract his opinion!

He is easily irritated with them.


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Response to mikeysnot (Reply #47)

Thu Apr 11, 2013, 09:32 PM

151. So,

 

wouldn't the obvious culprit be Cuba then?

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Response to mikeysnot (Reply #7)

Wed Mar 13, 2013, 01:52 PM

9. Chavez died from cancer and not from radiation poisoning though.

I wont say its 100% impossible it wasnt caused though because because there is a chance it could have been but to put it into perspective there is also a chance I might just win the powerball jackpot tonight, not very likely I will but there "is" a chance.

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Response to cstanleytech (Reply #9)

Wed Mar 13, 2013, 08:28 PM

20. About this likely:



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Response to Zorro (Original post)

Wed Mar 13, 2013, 02:29 PM

11. I could turn this around...

My Dad bought Citgo gasoline often, maybe Chavez poisoned my Dad with the pancreatic cancer that killed him!

You see how totally asinine this "Chavez was poisoned" crapola is?

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Response to Archae (Reply #11)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 12:40 PM

109. If gasoline gave your Dad cancer, blame gasoline.

Everyone knows gasoline causes cancer. Meanwhile, we do not know what caused Hugo's cancer, yet.

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Response to Zorro (Original post)

Wed Mar 13, 2013, 04:33 PM

14. People get cancer all the time. Sometimes they are leaders of nations.

This just looks silly.

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Response to Zorro (Original post)

Wed Mar 13, 2013, 04:46 PM

15. Biggest waste of Venezuela's tax dollars.

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Response to Zorro (Original post)

Wed Mar 13, 2013, 07:00 PM

16. Their hatred toward the US

is causing them to blame us for Chavez's cancer. Maybe next North Korea will blame us for Kim Jong Ill for dying.

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Response to davidpdx (Reply #16)

Thu Mar 14, 2013, 11:17 AM

32. You do realize that Bush admin

and 20% former ruling elite "white" class elements in Ven coordinated with our CIA to do a coup of him in April 2002.

Pat Roberston called for his death on TV.

It was well known there that his policies of redistribution of oil money from the multinationals to the lower class was the reason the media portrays him as a monster.

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Response to mikeysnot (Reply #32)

Thu Mar 14, 2013, 10:18 PM

97. Yes, I realize that

The Bush Administration did a lot of things that were fucked up, as did his dad's, and Reagan's Administration.

The part I have a hard time believing is that we gave him cancer.

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Response to davidpdx (Reply #97)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 09:24 AM

98. I agree it is far fetched

but we did carpet bomb entire city of Baghdad to get one despot dictator....

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Response to mikeysnot (Reply #32)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 01:09 PM

110. Thank you. Economic hitmen for Big Oil

wreaked havoc on Hugo Chavez because he refused to pay ball with Big Oil. They could not dislodge him with their CIA-enabled coup attempt. Did anyone believe they'd just give up?

I don't understand why anyone on this site would think the 'hatred for the US' is so hard to wrap their brains around.

Thanks for being informed and for sharing the truth beyond the corporate propaganda about Hugo Chavez.

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Response to Zorro (Original post)

Thu Mar 14, 2013, 09:44 AM

28. While I highly doubt his cancer was the result of poison

It is either ignorant, naive, or deliberately misleading to imply that this could never happen or that such things have never happened to world leaders.

Particularly in the region of Latin America where, more often than not in the last many decades, western powers like the US and Europe have been actively involved in major coups, assassinations, supporting violent military dictators, and so forth.

The cancer-poison thing aside, it is reasonable to assume that there are operations in the region (from financial support to who-knows-what) in order to keep Chavez' party out of power *despite the wishes of the majority of Venezuelans*.

The history of meddling by western powers in the region leans toward the violent and the anti-democratic. To pretend otherwise is foolish.

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Response to Cal Carpenter (Reply #28)

Thu Mar 14, 2013, 11:08 AM

31. Aside from the fact that it's medically and scientifically

impossible to assassinate someone by giving them colon cancer, these allegations are completely credible.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #31)

Thu Mar 14, 2013, 12:07 PM

35. Are you a scientist or a skeptic?

Like I said, believe what you want, but the countries belief of foreign interference is well documented.

Some books for you to read.

John Perkins The Secret History of the American Empire and Confessions of an Economic Hit Man

Chalmers Johnson Nemisis

Greg Palast Armed Madhouse and Vultures Picnic

And for good measure watch this...

http://app.topspin.net/store/artist/19986?theme=black&w=300&h=250&src=tw&wId=181688&highlightColor=0x00A1FF&awesm=t.opsp.in_f0ckJ

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Response to mikeysnot (Reply #35)

Thu Mar 14, 2013, 12:09 PM

36. As I said, but for the medical and scientific impossibility

it's certainly within reasonable discource.

Had he died of a heart attack or liver failure, the speculation would be worth investigating.

But, the idea that the CIA gave him colon cancer is in line with the "no planes hit the pentagon' nonsense.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #36)

Thu Mar 14, 2013, 12:16 PM

38. So you are easily manipulated

By the bought and paid for corporate "news" agencies.

Nice, thanks for wasting my time.

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Response to mikeysnot (Reply #38)

Thu Mar 14, 2013, 12:18 PM

40. Weren't you just whining about insults?

No, I am familiar with science. Perhaps you should look into it.

Science is not a creation of the corporate media.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #31)

Thu Mar 14, 2013, 12:39 PM

41. It's as credible as the propaganda

from our nation's leaders regarding N Korea's nuke capabilities, or Iran's for that matter.

Which is to say, not very.

Is it anti-Western propaganda? Sure. It is well-deserved given the history? Hell yes.

The point is, people are using this as a reason to call Venezuelans paranoid, insane, silly, whatever...to write off any valid suspicions as being from those people who think the CIA might have given Chavez cancer.

It's a propaganda game, it is pretty easy to see through, but it doesn't discount the very real likelihood that shenanigans could be afoot down there at the hands of our CIA or other US/European ops.

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Response to Cal Carpenter (Reply #41)

Thu Mar 14, 2013, 12:46 PM

43. You're confusing political cynicism with scientific impossibility.

The evidence tends to point to the fact that Iran's nuclear capabilities are being exaggerated. But it's not physically impossible for those claims to be true.

That is quite different than making scientifically impossible claims.

The correct analog would be if the US accused North Korea of having photon torpedoes in outer space waiting to hit Los Angeles.

To repeat:

claiming that a foreign agent gave Hugo Chavez colon cancer runs against everything science has ever said about colon cancer and its causes.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #43)

Thu Mar 14, 2013, 12:53 PM

44. No, I am not

I am pointing out that it is irrelevant in terms of propaganda, because most people subject to it are not scientists.

And, for the record, it may be possible to increase someone's chances of getting cancer by exposing them to radiation, for example.

But again, fwiw, I personally doubt this is the case here, and it is the propaganda game that is more relevant here than the science.

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Response to Cal Carpenter (Reply #44)

Thu Mar 14, 2013, 12:59 PM

45. No, it's really not possible to give someone

colon cancer by radiation, unless you shove radium up their ass.

The dosages required for colon cancer are much higher than those that would create cancer in other kinds of tissues, e.g. leukemia and thyroid cancer.

And even then, the radiation only increases the chance of cancer, it does not at all make it likely much less certain.

So unless one is willing to allege that it's possible that the CIA shoved radium up Hugo Chavez's ass with the goal being to increase the likelihood that he would get colon cancer, it's an impossibility.



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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #45)

Thu Mar 14, 2013, 03:14 PM

56. It does not have to be SHoved up his ass

just close proximity, like and infected chair... but as I stated earlier YOU OFFER NO PROOF THAT IT WAS COLON CANCER!

You are assuming it is.

Even the articles which I linked to did not state COLON CANCER.

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Response to mikeysnot (Reply #56)

Thu Mar 14, 2013, 03:32 PM

60. "an infected chair"

Cancer is not a contagious disease.

There have been zero recorded instances in human history of cancer being used as a weapon. Those who understand how cancer is induced--even via externallities like radiation and chemicals--understand that it could not be done with even a 10% chance of success, given that all radiation and carcinogens do (unless in such massive doses that other poisonous effects would take place) is raise the probabilities.

Indeed, the allegation is nothing more than bad science fiction writing. It is not taken seriously by rational human beings.



Dr. Elmer Huerta, an oncologist and past president of the American Cancer Society, told CNN en Español Tuesday that assertions that injections or poisons could have caused Chavez's cancer have "absolutely no scientific substance."

"Science cannot sustain this hypothesis," Huerta said.


http://www.cnn.com/2013/03/12/world/americas/venezuela-chavez-death-investigation/index.html



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Response to Zorro (Original post)

Thu Mar 14, 2013, 12:41 PM

42. About as likely as Paul Wellstone's plane being shot down (nt)

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #42)

Thu Mar 14, 2013, 12:59 PM

46. Much less likely--it's actually physically possible to shoot

someone's plane down.

Not so to give them colon cancer.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #46)

Thu Mar 14, 2013, 02:54 PM

51. You're never going to diabuse the 'they gave Chavez

cancer" types of their delusion by citing facts. They cling to this 'theory' in order to continue to lament the loss of their Fearless leader. Surely such a giant of a leader couldn't have been felled by a nasty disease which occurred because, well, because shit happens and cancer occurs in human beings sometimes. No, it had to have been caused by the antirevolutionary Dark Forces (possibly in conjunction with or assisted by the Illuminati, the BilderbergGroup, the Rothschilds and/or the CIA and the local Masonic Lodge. Viva la Revolucion. You just can't keep a good conspiracy theory down...

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Response to COLGATE4 (Reply #51)

Thu Mar 14, 2013, 02:57 PM

52. Yeah, I know. I can't help debating birther/truther types.

Personal weakness.

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Response to Zorro (Original post)

Thu Mar 14, 2013, 02:58 PM

53. It's not crazy in light of the poisoning of Litvinenko, and possible poisoning of Arafat

I was surprised to see that a test found unusually high levels of polonium on Arafat's stuff:

Polonium was used to kill Russian former spy turned Kremlin critic Alexander Litvinenko, who died in 2006 after drinking tea laced with the radioactive substance at a London hotel.

"If we take the scenario of Mr Litvinenko, one gigabecquerel at the beginning would come to about 10 millibecquerel," Dr Bochud told Al Jazeera.

"What was astonishing in our case was that we found values in the samples of Mr Arafat that were in the same order of magnitude."

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-07-04/new-tests-suggest-yasser-arafat-was-poisoned/4108532

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Response to yurbud (Reply #53)

Thu Mar 14, 2013, 03:17 PM

57. Hey your going to upset Geek Tragedy by pointing these things out.

He get's a little cranky when you do that...

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Response to mikeysnot (Reply #57)

Thu Mar 14, 2013, 03:41 PM

62. If Chavez died of radiation poisoning, that would be a valid argument.

But, he died of cancer.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #62)

Thu Mar 14, 2013, 04:23 PM

76. wrong again

Heart attack... already stated that several times now.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #62)

Thu Mar 14, 2013, 04:25 PM

77. pop quiz: what did people downwind of nuclear tests die at unusually high rates of?

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Response to yurbud (Reply #77)

Thu Mar 14, 2013, 04:42 PM

80. heart attacks?

heheehheee.

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Response to yurbud (Reply #77)

Thu Mar 14, 2013, 04:59 PM

82. Leukemia. Other cancer was non-fatal thyroid.

And take place over a period of years.

And the incidences of cancer increased a paltry 10%


This makes sense as a means of assassination . . . how?

Note that the vast majority of people who survived Nagasaki and Hiroshima did not develop cancer.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #82)

Thu Mar 14, 2013, 05:44 PM

88. it works as assassination by depriving the victim of martyrdom

Death by disease doesn't help the cause the way taking a bullet for the team does.

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Response to yurbud (Reply #88)

Thu Mar 14, 2013, 06:25 PM

93. It has to work first.

Perhaps you missed the part where I explained that no cancer agent would have anything approaching a likelihood of success.

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Response to Zorro (Original post)


Response to Zorro (Original post)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 09:54 AM

103. This is a really short thread after you ignore just one poster.

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Response to Coyotl (Reply #103)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 01:11 PM

111. Haha!

I'm reading this on my iPhone so I can't tell who it is. But this made me chuckle. Thanks for that!


Eta: Now I know.

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Response to Coyotl (Reply #103)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 03:00 PM

116. Oh, cool! And it's a good idea, too! Thanks, Coyotl. n/t

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Response to Zorro (Original post)

Sat Mar 16, 2013, 03:46 PM

122. SV-40 Virus


The SV40 is a type of polyoma virus. The term “poly” means many and “oma” means tumor. Its very name designates its ability to cause many types of cancers. The specific biological mechanisms by which SV40 transforms (turns cancerous) cells have been well studied since its discovery in the early 1960’s. In fact, there are volumes of scientific publications on this subject. Below is a brief outline of some of the mechanisms. Supporting documentation can be found through Medline by simply entering the term SV40 with the appropriate mechanism.
1. Telomerase activity
The telomere is a repetitive stretch of DNA found at each end of a chromosome. Telomeres are shortened each time a cell divides. This is the reason that normal cells can only divide roughly 50 times. An enzyme, telomerase, extends the telomere. Tumors cells often have telomerase activity which allows the cancer cells to divide without limit. SV40 infection leads to telomerase activity.
2. Binding to and inhibition of cellular p53 and retinoblastoma (RB) proteins
The p53 gene and the retinoblastoma (Rb) gene are tumor suppressor genes. They promote cell-cycle arrest (stop cells from dividing) when the cells are injured or damaged. Their ability to function properly is critical because their respective proteins stop the formation of tumors. The major SV40 oncoprotein is the Large tumor antigen (Tag). Tag binds to and inactivates cellular p53 and Rb. Therefore, the presence of SV40 stops these tumor suppressor genes from doing their job.
3. Inhibition of protein phosphatase 2A (PP2A)
Protein Phosphatase 2A (PP2A) plays a role in the critical cellular processes of protein synthesis, DNA replication, transcription, and metabolism. Small t antigen of SV40 comprises 174 amino acids. The region between residues 97-103 interacts with the PP2A. This interaction reduces the ability of PP2A to inactivate ERK1 and MEK1 protein kinases, resulting in stimulation of proliferation of cells.

--snip--

More at the link:http://www.sv40foundation.org/How-causes.html

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Response to formercia (Reply #122)

Wed Mar 27, 2013, 01:49 PM

135. Yes.

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Response to formercia (Reply #122)

Fri Mar 29, 2013, 01:29 PM

138. Well. That shut down thiis thread

pretty damned quick, didn't it?

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Response to Ghost Dog (Reply #138)

Fri Mar 29, 2013, 01:45 PM

139. Nuttin' like a few facts.

It does tend to quiet the Peanut Gallery.

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Response to Ghost Dog (Reply #138)

Fri Mar 29, 2013, 03:16 PM

141. They don't want to come back to scuffle, which they love so dearly. What a shame,

has their confidence failed them?

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Response to Judi Lynn (Reply #141)

Sun Mar 31, 2013, 07:50 PM

146. They fear the sound of BS Detector Alarms

I could have posted more, but anyone with a little curiosity can find a lot more on the subject.

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Response to formercia (Reply #146)

Sat Apr 20, 2013, 02:51 PM

170. Mmmmmm.

heh heh!

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Response to formercia (Reply #122)

Fri Apr 19, 2013, 11:46 AM

166. Still a shot in the dark

You need more than the existance of this virus, you have to show it could have caused the specific type of cancer Chavez had, that it would be reasonably effective as a weapon, you need a delivery method, etc. Sure, cancer CAN be transmitted to another person or induced, but it is generally too complex of an occurrence to make it an effective way to assassinate someone.

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Response to Bradical79 (Reply #166)

Fri Apr 19, 2013, 12:59 PM

168. CIA proved otherwise

that's been documented as well.

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Response to formercia (Reply #168)

Sat Apr 20, 2013, 04:32 PM

172. I dont see where the cia has proven anything or where its been documented

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Response to Zorro (Original post)

Sat Mar 16, 2013, 04:16 PM

123. How will they test for this?

I mean they already embalmed the corpse correct? If they didn't take tissue samples beforehand there is no way to test this (somewhat outlandish based on existing science) theory.

I asked my uncle who is a cancer researcher at John Hopkins and he thinks its not possible with current medical science to transmit cancer in a way suggested by this yahoo article.

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Response to Zorro (Original post)

Sat Mar 23, 2013, 06:21 PM

130. I guess it's possible, but I'm skeptical. Occam's Razor and all that.

nt

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Response to Zorro (Original post)

Sun Mar 31, 2013, 05:44 PM

145. Birther/truther/chem trail territory.

n/t

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Response to Zorro (Original post)

Fri Apr 12, 2013, 10:44 AM

154. I refuse to believe Obama would be behind this.

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Response to Zorro (Original post)

Fri Apr 19, 2013, 11:16 AM

162. Arise, thread! ARISE!

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Response to Travelman (Reply #162)

Fri Apr 19, 2013, 11:34 AM

164. Thread WINNER! nt

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Response to Zorro (Original post)

Fri Apr 19, 2013, 11:33 AM

163. Gotta rile the sheep. It's rather pathetic.

If the US is such an enemy, why does VZ do so much business with them?

Answer: Because they pay their bills.


Gotta get money from somewhere.

Maduro is on the ropes. He has to motivate the masses against "the other" so they don't notice the shit surrounding them...like the crime rate, the food shortages, and the shrinking of a viable middle class, to say nothing of a money supply.

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