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Wed Feb 27, 2013, 11:15 PM

Armed shopper shoots at Walmart shoplifter, police say

Source: Orlando Sentinel

ORANGE CITY, Fla. — (short local news video and interview at link)

It started as a shoplifting incident inside the store on Veterans Memorial Parkway near Saxon Boulevard. A thief loaded up a cart of merchandise, and loss-prevention employees tried to stop him as he left the store, officials said.

Authorities said the shoplifter, identified as Eddie McKee, 42, knocked Ann Buongiorno to the ground as he ran out of the store.

An off-duty law enforcement officer saw McKee running for his car and ordered him to stop, but McKee fled.

Investigators said another man in the parking lot, who was identified as Jose Martinez, pulled out a gun and fired at least four shots at McKee. The back window of the car was shot out, and bullet holes were found in the trunk.




Read more: http://www.wesh.com/news/central-florida/volusia-county/Armed-shopper-shoots-at-Walmart-shoplifter-police-say/-/12983450/19107006/-/prwfmy/-/index.html



Also today, in Largo FL, a guy shot up the windows at an office where his wife works, and he thought she was having an affair, and he then shot himself, but the bigger shooting today in FL, this shopper above who thought he'd ignore the cop (sorta sound like anyone who killed a kid carrying tea and skittles? it does to me) and started FIRING shots at the shoplifter... another "hero" (zero) with a gun who thinks he's got the right to shoot at a shoplifter.

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Reply Armed shopper shoots at Walmart shoplifter, police say (Original post)
Divine Discontent Feb 2013 OP
Aristus Feb 2013 #1
Divine Discontent Feb 2013 #10
Gore1FL Feb 2013 #31
grahamhgreen Feb 2013 #35
TheMadMonk Feb 2013 #71
cartach Feb 2013 #74
iamthebandfanman Feb 2013 #50
Jackpine Radical Feb 2013 #95
valerief Feb 2013 #105
2ndAmForComputers Feb 2013 #154
iamthebandfanman Mar 2013 #167
Ter Feb 2013 #99
marshall Feb 2013 #108
Paul E Ester Feb 2013 #111
HangOnKids Feb 2013 #141
Scairp Mar 2013 #163
frylock Feb 2013 #116
JI7 Feb 2013 #146
Jacoby365 Feb 2013 #2
jpak Feb 2013 #97
Selatius Feb 2013 #3
1983law Feb 2013 #7
upaloopa Feb 2013 #16
Deep13 Feb 2013 #28
1983law Feb 2013 #41
Capt. Obvious Feb 2013 #124
1983law Feb 2013 #133
Divine Discontent Feb 2013 #9
CanonRay Feb 2013 #84
jeff47 Feb 2013 #21
Deep13 Feb 2013 #27
AtheistCrusader Feb 2013 #62
jeff47 Feb 2013 #65
AtheistCrusader Feb 2013 #66
jeff47 Feb 2013 #67
AtheistCrusader Feb 2013 #69
CBGLuthier Feb 2013 #87
AtheistCrusader Feb 2013 #112
frylock Feb 2013 #117
AtheistCrusader Feb 2013 #121
Capt. Obvious Feb 2013 #125
AtheistCrusader Feb 2013 #126
frylock Feb 2013 #130
Paladin Feb 2013 #134
Democracyinkind Feb 2013 #156
Deep13 Feb 2013 #26
AnotherWyoDemocrat Feb 2013 #32
davidpdx Feb 2013 #88
AnotherWyoDemocrat Feb 2013 #100
slackmaster Feb 2013 #39
frylock Feb 2013 #131
2ndAmForComputers Feb 2013 #155
tblue Feb 2013 #51
sinkingfeeling Feb 2013 #96
bluedigger Feb 2013 #4
valerief Feb 2013 #106
Loudly Feb 2013 #5
freshwest Feb 2013 #30
graham4anything Feb 2013 #77
lunasun Feb 2013 #6
Divine Discontent Feb 2013 #13
lunasun Feb 2013 #17
jeff47 Feb 2013 #23
Deep13 Feb 2013 #25
tblue Feb 2013 #52
Deep13 Feb 2013 #57
Mnpaul Feb 2013 #33
rdharma Feb 2013 #8
IveWornAHundredPants Feb 2013 #11
rdharma Feb 2013 #14
Deep13 Feb 2013 #24
rdharma Feb 2013 #44
Deep13 Feb 2013 #60
AtheistCrusader Feb 2013 #70
cynzke Feb 2013 #120
AtheistCrusader Feb 2013 #122
Deep13 Feb 2013 #150
AtheistCrusader Feb 2013 #151
avebury Feb 2013 #81
AtheistCrusader Feb 2013 #114
JoeBlowToo Feb 2013 #138
avebury Feb 2013 #148
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avebury Feb 2013 #152
Paladin Feb 2013 #135
rdharma Feb 2013 #145
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DeSwiss Feb 2013 #12
pasto76 Feb 2013 #15
lunasun Feb 2013 #19
cthulu2016 Feb 2013 #18
BlueStreak Feb 2013 #43
BainsBane Feb 2013 #20
primavera Feb 2013 #54
Fuddnik Feb 2013 #72
Deep13 Feb 2013 #22
SCVDem Feb 2013 #29
Hoyt Feb 2013 #34
SCVDem Feb 2013 #45
Bjorn Against Feb 2013 #36
onehandle Feb 2013 #37
Spitfire of ATJ Feb 2013 #38
BlueStreak Feb 2013 #40
Ikonoklast Feb 2013 #42
Beartracks Feb 2013 #46
1983law Feb 2013 #47
SansACause Feb 2013 #53
1983law Feb 2013 #68
Fumesucker Feb 2013 #76
JI7 Feb 2013 #56
Bjorn Against Feb 2013 #59
Iggo Feb 2013 #107
frylock Feb 2013 #129
catchnrelease Feb 2013 #48
alcibiades_mystery Feb 2013 #94
SansACause Feb 2013 #49
JI7 Feb 2013 #55
Kolesar Feb 2013 #79
valerief Feb 2013 #103
bossy22 Feb 2013 #58
awoke_in_2003 Feb 2013 #61
AtheistCrusader Feb 2013 #63
jpak Feb 2013 #98
AtheistCrusader Feb 2013 #113
jpak Feb 2013 #140
AtheistCrusader Feb 2013 #142
apocalypsehow Feb 2013 #160
AtheistCrusader Feb 2013 #162
sendero Mar 2013 #165
AtheistCrusader Mar 2013 #166
frylock Feb 2013 #132
AtheistCrusader Feb 2013 #136
Common Sense Party Feb 2013 #64
Sancho Feb 2013 #82
SCVDem Feb 2013 #91
Sancho Feb 2013 #73
Historic NY Feb 2013 #75
frylock Feb 2013 #137
riderinthestorm Feb 2013 #161
classykaren Feb 2013 #78
sulphurdunn Feb 2013 #80
SCVDem Feb 2013 #101
another_liberal Feb 2013 #83
Sancho Feb 2013 #92
another_liberal Feb 2013 #115
sulphurdunn Feb 2013 #128
Sunlei Feb 2013 #85
Blandocyte Feb 2013 #86
davidpdx Feb 2013 #89
hatrack Feb 2013 #90
apocalypsehow Feb 2013 #159
Javaman Feb 2013 #93
valerief Feb 2013 #102
Iggo Feb 2013 #104
ThomThom Feb 2013 #109
SCVDem Feb 2013 #110
Smilo Feb 2013 #118
hedgehog Feb 2013 #119
AngryOldDem Feb 2013 #123
cynzke Feb 2013 #127
frylock Feb 2013 #139
hamsterjill Feb 2013 #143
sofa king Feb 2013 #144
Scairp Feb 2013 #153
and-justice-for-all Feb 2013 #157
Divine Discontent Mar 2013 #164
apocalypsehow Feb 2013 #158

Response to Divine Discontent (Original post)

Wed Feb 27, 2013, 11:18 PM

1. Hey, it takes a good guy with a gun to stop a bad guy with...

stolen merchandise?...

I share your

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Response to Aristus (Reply #1)

Wed Feb 27, 2013, 11:27 PM

10. I don't know what else to do but shudder at the thought of this idiot,

standing in the parking lot, shooting repeatedly at a guy stealing walmart crap! Talk about delusional! 99.9% chance he feels like he's the protector of the people with his gun, and felt he was supposed to do this so he could be on the news!

UPDATE -----

when asked, as they put him in the back of the cruiser, if he thought he'd get arrested, he said "NO!" Again, he thinks he's an honorary part of the police force because he's got a permit to carry (from what I believe I heard). Talk about delusional.

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Response to Divine Discontent (Reply #10)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 12:06 AM

31. I have to wonder if the value of the stolen merchandise

topped the value of the 4 discharged rounds, the window and the trunk.

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Response to Gore1FL (Reply #31)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 12:19 AM

35. and the ambulance, investigation, trial, et al

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Response to Divine Discontent (Reply #10)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 02:22 AM

71. On the plus side, his aim appears to be better than...

 

...the average copper's.

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Response to Divine Discontent (Reply #10)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 03:46 AM

74. Stay out of stores

as much as possible and do your shopping online.

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Response to Aristus (Reply #1)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 12:45 AM

50. theft = death

duh.
everybody knows that.

ive made this argument to friends of mine..
how can someone shoot someone breaking into their house if their intent isnt to harm but only to steal and it not be a crime when no weapons are found?
sure , you have a right to protect yourself.. at any and all times..
but against an actual life or death threat..
not the fear of the threat.

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Response to iamthebandfanman (Reply #50)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 08:52 AM

95. How the hell ya gonna know if the intruder is armed?

I happen to live in a very safe rural area where break-ins just don't happen. I own guns but none of them are loaded or placed strategically where I can get at them quickly for purposes of self-defense. But I think if I lived in a high-crime area I might keep a pistol handy, and if someone broke into my living area I would shoot them if I thought my wife or I were at risk.

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Response to iamthebandfanman (Reply #50)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 10:59 AM

105. theft=death unless you're a banker, then theft=big bonus. nt

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Response to iamthebandfanman (Reply #50)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 07:32 PM

154. Bad comparison. A person breaking into your home may very possibly do you harm.

This guy was actually only stealing. Very VERY different situations.

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Response to 2ndAmForComputers (Reply #154)

Sat Mar 2, 2013, 10:31 AM

167. *may* n/t

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Response to Aristus (Reply #1)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 09:54 AM

99. He also knocked a woman to the ground

 

So he did more than shoplift.

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Response to Ter (Reply #99)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 11:06 AM

108. He knocked down a Wal Mart worker

She was trying to prevent him from leaving with the merchandise.

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Response to Ter (Reply #99)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 11:49 AM

111. seems not many readers made it to page 2

 

Buongiorno's husband said he thinks the citizen had a right to shoot.

"He came at us," said Andrew Buongiorno. "(He) threw the car in reverse, tried to run us over. That's attempted murder."

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Response to Paul E Ester (Reply #111)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 02:29 PM

141. Gee Thanks Paul

 

How did we survive without you?

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Response to Paul E Ester (Reply #111)

Fri Mar 1, 2013, 12:08 AM

163. You know, I have a personal policy myself

If I'm in a place where a criminal is trying to flee the scene and gets into his/her vehicle and starts it to peel away, I do my very best to NOT stand right behind the fucking car. But that's just me.

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Response to Ter (Reply #99)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 12:28 PM

116. a crime punishable by death..

get real. this dumbass could've shot an innocent bystander ffs.

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Response to Ter (Reply #99)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 04:11 PM

146. and he should be charged for Assault for that

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Response to Divine Discontent (Original post)

Wed Feb 27, 2013, 11:18 PM

2. Another example

of a good guy with a gun stopping a bad guy with a gun.

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Response to Jacoby365 (Reply #2)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 09:39 AM

97. Except the "bad guy" was unarmed

yup

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Response to Divine Discontent (Original post)

Wed Feb 27, 2013, 11:19 PM

3. If Jose's bullets had hit a bystander and killed him/her, would that be manslaughter or murder? nt

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Response to Selatius (Reply #3)

Wed Feb 27, 2013, 11:21 PM

7. Neither

 

Depends on the state...this shooter's response may be a TAD much.

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Response to 1983law (Reply #7)

Wed Feb 27, 2013, 11:40 PM

16. a TAD? shooting isn't a TAD much it is the ultimate much!

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Response to upaloopa (Reply #16)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 12:03 AM

28. understatement for irony? nt

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Response to upaloopa (Reply #16)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 12:29 AM

41. I agree.

 

I need to work on my "Captain Obvious", huh?

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Response to 1983law (Reply #41)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 01:00 PM

124. It gets easier

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Response to Capt. Obvious (Reply #124)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 01:31 PM

133. You win the internets today...

 

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Response to Selatius (Reply #3)

Wed Feb 27, 2013, 11:23 PM

9. thank you! I was wondering the same after I posted this. What if someone was right behind that car

and took a bullet to the chest - my God! What the heck was that moron thinking? These wannabe-cop/vigilantes who carry weapons are mostly people I don't want to be near - ever.

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Response to Divine Discontent (Reply #9)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 07:27 AM

84. Answer: He wasn't thinking

Adrenaline + gun = Disaster, unless you are trained, not just to handle a gun, but to have on in emergency situations and know when you should, and when you should not fire it. That's why we hire and spend thousands training police. Maybe if Florida has enough trouble with this shit (like some Rethug pol gets shot at a Wal Mart by accident) they will finally wake up to the lunacy that is their gun laws.

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Response to Selatius (Reply #3)

Wed Feb 27, 2013, 11:57 PM

21. If he had hit the shoplifter, that would be murder.

No imminent threat from the shoplifter.

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Response to jeff47 (Reply #21)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 12:03 AM

27. right nt

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Response to jeff47 (Reply #21)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 01:28 AM

62. Read page two of the article.

At least one witness alleges that there was.

""He came at us," said Andrew Buongiorno. "(He) threw the car in reverse, tried to run us over. That's attempted murder.""


(Buongiorno was not the shooter)

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #62)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 01:39 AM

65. Doesn't matter.

Imminent danger doesn't mean "he did something earlier" or "he might do something later".

The Buongiornos were knocked down as they tried to enter the store. I have trouble believing the shoplifter tried to back into the store. On the other hand, he might throw the car into reverse to get out of a parking space.

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Response to jeff47 (Reply #65)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 01:54 AM

66. This is entirely hypothetical

but the Buongiornos that made that statement did not claim to have been knocked down. That was a male. The female was knocked down at the store. So here's your hypothetical:

1. The male chased him.
2. Suspect got in his car.
3. Buongiornos and possibly the shooter stood behind his car blocking him in the stall.
4. Suspect throws it in reverse.

Doesn't matter that Buongiornos put himself in that situation, it's still an imminent threat against him where he had a legal right to be.



I don't know that this is what happened. That is just one of a thousand possible scenarios, including the possibility that the shooter was just pissed that a shoplifter seemed to be getting away. This article is way too thin on details to draw any sort of meaningful conclusion at this point. If the shooting can't be justified to a reasonable degree, there will be a grand jury to review the scenario. If the bar of lethal force in self defense was not met, he the shooter will be charged with a crime.

No need to try the shooter off a shitty news source.

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #66)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 01:59 AM

67. Except there's no reporting of a chase by either Buongiorno

And with someone claiming they thought they had been shot because they were "knocked down so hard", I have a lot of trouble giving their story a lot of credibility.

But you missed my central point: According to this report, the shooting happened after the shoplifter drove off. Which means imminent threat went away.

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Response to jeff47 (Reply #67)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 02:05 AM

69. I think the report is pretty suspect.

It doesn't establish who was standing where, how far from the store, etc.

Wouldn't mind seeing the actual police report.
AND I wouldn't say the shooting sounds justifiable. It sounds extremely risky, at the very least, and possibly unnecessary, or even legally hazardous. The truth will out. Wheels of justice grind slow. Pick your metaphor, but I find the end results of a prosecution rarely match up perfectly with the initial news reports of the alleged crime.

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #62)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 07:45 AM

87. using the cop excuse.

Cops invented that excuse after the SC ruled they could not shoot someone merely for fleeing.

So, they invented the "coming right at us" argument for shooting at will.

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Response to CBGLuthier (Reply #87)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 11:50 AM

112. Entirely possible.

I think a lot of people in this thread were a little to quick to judge, when you really need something like a grand jury to sort through it and hopefully also review WalMart security camera footage, and make a determination whether the shooter actually broke any laws.

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #62)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 12:30 PM

117. imagine that. putting a car in reverse to back out of a parking slot..

i'm guessing these idiots positioned themselves DIRECTLY behind the car in an attempt to prevent him from leaving.

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Response to frylock (Reply #117)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 12:41 PM

121. They would have a legal right to do that.

Hell, I stood in front of a drunk driver at a red light once, when it turned green. Wouldn't have given her the right to run me over. Cops thanked me for it too.

Risky, but the police needed time to arrive. It's legal to do when you witness a crime in progress.

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #121)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 01:02 PM

125. "It's legal to do when you witness a crime in progress."

It's always legal to stand in front of a moving vehicle - crime or not.

But as they say, good luck with that.

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Response to Capt. Obvious (Reply #125)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 01:03 PM

126. Tonnage has right of way, as they say.

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #121)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 01:23 PM

130. my instinct for self preservation far exceeds my will to protect walmart's profit margin

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Response to frylock (Reply #130)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 01:38 PM

134. Bullseye. (nt)

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Response to frylock (Reply #130)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 08:26 PM

156. Well, that's you.

I for one would give my life any day to prevent shoplifting.

To me, it's a matter of principle.

--> Obviously, such people do exist.

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Response to Selatius (Reply #3)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 12:02 AM

26. 2nd degree murder.

The jury is allowed to presume intent to kill because he used a gun.

No premeditation, so 2nd degree.

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Response to Selatius (Reply #3)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 12:07 AM

32. "Intent follows bullet"

 

I was a juror in Wyoming for a murder trial where the shooter missed the intended person and blew off half of the head of an innocent bystander. He was tried for first degree murder and the judge instructed the jury that "the intent followed the bullet". If the shooter tried to kill a person and killed another instead, then he is guilty of murder. The shooter was found guilty of first degree murder and sentenced accordingly.

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Response to AnotherWyoDemocrat (Reply #32)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 07:48 AM

88. How many years did he get?

Or was it life?

I've never been on a jury (and never will be as I live outside the country now). It would have been interesting to be a juror in a case where there was a lessor crime. A murder trial would be intense though.

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Response to davidpdx (Reply #88)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 10:10 AM

100. Life

 

He got life.
Yes, being a juror is intense but it is quite an experience in human relations!

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Response to Selatius (Reply #3)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 12:25 AM

39. They didn't. Your question is moot.

 

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #39)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 01:26 PM

131. it's like it never happened..

no harm, no foul. no blood, no ambulance. these aren't the droids you're looking for......

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #39)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 07:35 PM

155. By your logic, there isn't such a thing as "attempted murder."

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Response to Selatius (Reply #3)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 12:46 AM

51. And if the bystander was armed, would s/he have the legal right

to shoot Jose?

When does the insanity end?

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Response to Selatius (Reply #3)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 09:33 AM

96. In Florida, it's probably 'stand your ground'!

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Response to Divine Discontent (Original post)

Wed Feb 27, 2013, 11:21 PM

4. If the bad guys don't get you, the vigilantes will.

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Response to bluedigger (Reply #4)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 11:00 AM

106. Because the vigilantes are just as bad as the bad guys. nt

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Response to Divine Discontent (Original post)

Wed Feb 27, 2013, 11:21 PM

5. Utter chaos. Where is the justice system in all of this?

 

Gun worshippers apparently say that it is an alternate system of justice which kills or mains criminals as an act of popular justice.

OK well popular justice must be popular. And because it is popular it is presumed to be just.

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Response to Loudly (Reply #5)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 12:05 AM

30. The 'starve the beast' crowd demands this. They say it openly, no money for cops, just DYI.

That is the latest NRA talking point. They really want chaos and trying to spark a civil war. It's getting much more serious now, and want to seize power any way they can.

They are getting people ready for martial law - exactly what the wing nuts say they need their guns to protect themselves from the government. But it's not the government doing it, they're doing it to us themselves.

Living in an armed camp is no different from the state model for the regular citizen than their fabled 'police state!!!111!!' they holler about.

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Response to freshwest (Reply #30)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 05:28 AM

77. +1

 

Years of Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity and voila, in leadup to Iraq, Tom Daschle, a really good man and his wife, got 'thraxed after Sean called him a devil 100 times over.

Years of hate media and this LaPierre guy(why this guy is given free airtime on major media
I don't know) is inciting everyone to hate.

the old racial wars are being inflamed, and the republicans that indulge in birther and other areas are openly calling for war against them
The civil War is being reignited.

They need to start making examples of vigilantes.

They need to find Zimmerman 100% guilty of whatever the top charge is.

And what LaPierre is attempting to do is have a shoot to kill anyone not like him in cold blood
and say they werre being threatened by some conspiracy theory threat that don't exist.

They are terrorists and LaPierre and the NRA is a terror organization.

Why are people negotiating with them?

Zimmerman Paul Blarts are taking away MY 1st amendment rights.

These people who want to tear our system down are anarchists and extremists,
wanting 100% chaos.

It will be like Danzinger Bridge if they could do it.

(there were ZERO riots in New Orleans. Only ones doing the shooting were the vigilantes on Danzinger Bridge and their like.)

BTW, everytime an event like this happens, only solidifies my view that we need MORE not less
federal security everywhere. MORE not less checkpoints

and my view that
We need to quickly work for a gun in the streets FREE America by any private citizen, with guns kept in the home.

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Response to Divine Discontent (Original post)

Wed Feb 27, 2013, 11:21 PM

6. Do these" heros" have the training re: firing a gun in public areas the way police are educated?

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Response to lunasun (Reply #6)

Wed Feb 27, 2013, 11:29 PM

13. good question. obviously, not all of them do, fortunately, this guys bullets seemed to have not hit

anyone away from the vehicle, but, what if a guy was walking behind the car on the other row of cars, and took one? This idiot shooter could go to prison, when he thinks he was being a hero! (he told the news Lady who asked him if he thought he'd be arrested, "no!")

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Response to Divine Discontent (Reply #13)

Wed Feb 27, 2013, 11:41 PM

17. Ricochet

The possibility of ricochet is one of the reasons for the common firearms safety rule "Never shoot at a flat, hard surface
Idiot shooter and there were others in charge(loss prevention employee) of that problem which was not his
Really stepping over the line but I am sure he already has lots of fans and kudos

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Response to Divine Discontent (Reply #13)

Wed Feb 27, 2013, 11:59 PM

23. Actually, he didn't need to hit a bystander. Hitting the shoplifter would have been plenty

There's no imminent threat justifying deadly force.

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Response to lunasun (Reply #6)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 12:01 AM

25. If he did, it didn't take. ...

Because lesson one is, unless your life is in immediate danger, you must not shoot.

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Response to Deep13 (Reply #25)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 12:47 AM

52. I swear there are people walking around just itching to shoot

another person. They just want an excuse, any excuse. Ugh. Save us.

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Response to tblue (Reply #52)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 01:01 AM

57. Seems like it.

My concern with concealed carry is that most of the people to take advantage of those state legal rights are the most likely to perceive a threat where none exists and, therefore, have the worst judgment or the most disturbed personalities.

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Response to lunasun (Reply #6)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 12:11 AM

33. I saw that they have a simulator open to citizens in NY

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Response to Divine Discontent (Original post)

Wed Feb 27, 2013, 11:22 PM

8. Not in Texas?

 

I think it's legal to shoot fleeing shoplifters in Texas. But I'm not sure about Florida.

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Response to rdharma (Reply #8)

Wed Feb 27, 2013, 11:28 PM

11. In Florida it's mandatory.

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Response to IveWornAHundredPants (Reply #11)

Wed Feb 27, 2013, 11:34 PM

14. Mandatory in Florida

 

I thought that was only in dueling banjos area of the north Florida pan handle.

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Response to rdharma (Reply #8)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 12:00 AM

24. No. No place in the USA allows lethal force to defend mere property. nt

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Response to Deep13 (Reply #24)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 12:34 AM

44. No place in the USA allows lethal force to defend mere property

 

Ya think?!!

"A Texas man who shot and killed two men he believed to be burglarizing his neighbor's home won't be going to trial. A grand jury today failed to indict Joe Horn, a 61-year-old computer technician who lives in an affluent subdivision in Pasadena, Texas.

In the Lone Star state, where the six-gun tamed the frontier, shooting bad guys is a time-honored tradition, and Horn's case centered on a Texas state law based on the old idea that "a man's home is his castle." The "castle law" gives Texans unprecedented legal authority to use deadly force in their homes, vehicles and workplaces. And no longer do they have an obligation to retreat, if possible, before they shoot.

"I understand the concerns of some in the community regarding Mr. Horn's conduct," Harris County District Attorney Kenneth Magidson told reporters at the courthouse. "The use of deadly force is carefully limited in Texas law to certain circumstances. ... In this case, however, the grand jury concluded that Mr. Horn use of deadly force did not rise to a criminal offense."

'I'm Gonna Shoot!' Horn called 911 in November to report a burglary in broad daylight at the house next door.

"I've got a shotgun; you want me to stop him?" Horn asked the dispatcher.

"Nope. Don't do that," the dispatcher replied. "Ain't no property worth shooting somebody over, OK?"

Horn was clearly upset by the dispatcher's response."






Some think Joe Horn when too far when he shot and killed two men he believed were buglarizing his neighbor's home.

"I'm not gonna let them get away with it," he said. "I can't take a chance getting killed over this, OK."

Despite the dispatcher's protects, Horn said, "I'm gonna shoot! I'm gonna shoot!"

The 911 dispatcher warned Horn to stay inside at least a dozen separate times, telling him, "An officer is coming out there. I don't want you to go outside that house."

Then Horn sounding angrier by the moment cited the new Texas law.

"OK, but I have a right to protect myself too, sir," he said. "And you understand that. And the laws have been changed in this country since September the first, and you know it and I know it."

Moments later, Horn saw two burglars leave his neighbor's house, one of them carrying a bag filled with cash and jewelry.

"I'm gonna kill him," Horn said. "Stay in the house," the dispatcher said. "They're getting away," Horn replied. "That's all right," the dispatcher said. "Property's not worth killing someone over. OK?" "---damn it," said Horn, who then defied the dispatcher.

"Well, here it goes, buddy, you hear the shotgun clicking, and I'm going," he said.

"Don't go outside," the dispatcher warned.

Self-Defense? Horn says he came out his front door, down his porch and confronted the two burglars. The next sounds heard on the 911 tape are Horn ordering the two men to stop & and then shooting them both.

"Move you're dead," he said, and fired his shotgun three times.

"Both suspects were shot in the back," Pasadena Police Captain A.H. "Bud" Corbett said. "Not at the same angle, but both suspects were hit in the back."

Horn fatally shot the burglars, two illegal immigrants from Colombia named Diego Ortiz and Miguel de Jesus. Stephanie Storey, De Jesus' fiancée, wanted to see Joe Horn prosecuted.

"This man took the law into his own hands," she said. "He shot two individuals in the back after having been told over and over to stay inside. It was his choice to go outside and his choice to take two lives."

Horn turned down an ABC News request for an interview but his attorney Tom Lambright insists Horn was entirely justified.

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Response to rdharma (Reply #44)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 01:07 AM

60. All right, apparently I have not learned my lesson...

...What I should have said was that no states "black letter law" allows lethal force to defend mere property. Shooting a burglar is usually justified it is reasonable for the house or apartment occupant to believe his or her life to be in danger. This is what I was taught in law school.

The lesson I still haven't learned is that black letter law does not usually reflect reality. And the fact is most Americans think their have a god-given duty to kill trespassers. Knowing those folks will be on the jury, the DA sometimes has to make decisions based on that kind of consideration.

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Response to Deep13 (Reply #60)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 02:09 AM

70. Wrong again.

Texas again, ever the poster child:


Sec. 9.42. DEADLY FORCE TO PROTECT PROPERTY.

A person is justified in using deadly force against another to protect land or tangible, movable property:


(1) if he would be justified in using force against the other under Section 9.41; and

(2) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary:

(A) to prevent the other's imminent commission of arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime; or

(B) to prevent the other who is fleeing immediately after committing burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, or theft during the nighttime from escaping with the property; and

(3) he reasonably believes that:

(A) the land or property cannot be protected or recovered by any other means; or

(B) the use of force other than deadly force to protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor or another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury.




Sec. 9.43. PROTECTION OF THIRD PERSON'S PROPERTY.

A person is justified in using force or deadly force against another to protect land or tangible, movable property of a third person if, under the circumstances as he reasonably believes them to be, the actor would be justified under Section 9.41 or 9.42 in using force or deadly force to protect his own land or property and:


(1) the actor reasonably believes the unlawful interference constitutes attempted or consummated theft of or criminal mischief to the tangible, movable property; or

(2) the actor reasonably believes that:

(A) the third person has requested his protection of the land or property;

(B) he has a legal duty to protect the third person's land or property; or

(C) the third person whose land or property he uses force or deadly force to protect is the actor's spouse, parent, or child, resides with the actor, or is under the actor's care.

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #70)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 12:37 PM

120. It's a little confusing.

It states under sec. 9.43, deadly force is justified for protection of third party property if the circumstances are reasonably justified under the parameters of 9.41 or 9.42. Don't know what those are for 9.41 but 9.42 seems to have a caveat...."nighttime". It seems to suggest that use of deadly force to protect third party property is only justified at "nighttime". Must be a reason for that....confusing. Under the circumstance, guess this wasn't an issue.

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Response to cynzke (Reply #120)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 12:42 PM

122. Correct.

It is only apparently justifiable at night.

It's Texas. They might still have statutes on the books for shooting horse thieves. Who knows. (Partly snark there, partly 'you never know'...)

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #70)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 05:31 PM

150. Do you have 9.41 handy? nt

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Response to Deep13 (Reply #150)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 05:34 PM

151. Sure.

§ 9.41. PROTECTION OF ONE'S OWN PROPERTY. (a) A person in
lawful possession of land or tangible, movable property is
justified in using force against another when and to the degree the
actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to
prevent or terminate the other's trespass on the land or unlawful
interference with the property.
(b) A person unlawfully dispossessed of land or tangible,
movable property by another is justified in using force against the
other when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force
is immediately necessary to reenter the land or recover the
property if the actor uses the force immediately or in fresh pursuit
after the dispossession and:
(1) the actor reasonably believes the other had no
claim of right when he dispossessed the actor; or
(2) the other accomplished the dispossession by using
force, threat, or fraud against the actor.

Acts 1973, 63rd Leg., p. 883, ch. 399, § 1, eff. Jan. 1, 1974.
Amended by Acts 1993, 73rd Leg., ch. 900, § 1.01, eff. Sept. 1,
1994.





I'm aware of NO other state with these sorts of laws, but they may exist somewhere...

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Response to rdharma (Reply #44)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 06:50 AM

81. That is just so unbelievable!

First of all, the neighbor's home is not Horn's "castle." A case like above is the worst because he murdered people who weren't a threat to him over property. I have also read too many stories of people shooting dogs and/cats without any regard to what is around them or if the shooting is even warranted for personal safety reasons. There are some people who should just never be allowed to own guns. This guy was in no way shape or form defending himself. He appointed himself judge, juror and executioner.

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Response to avebury (Reply #81)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 11:58 AM

114. I don't like what Horn did, but there is an additonal piece of info missing from that account.

A plainclothes officer was first to arrive on the scene. He stayed in his vehicle, because he was afraid Horn might mistake him for a getaway driver or something, but he witnessed the shooting. He testified that the two burglars were approaching Horn when he shot them.

That had a powerful effect on the Grand Jury.

Whether it was true or not, is an entirely different question. I am told that police officers do not always speak the truth, for a variety of motives, and the public comments on the autopsy reports suggest that something else may have happened, but that was a crucial piece of testimony in the grand jury investigation, and I think it odd it was left out of that account of the story. Without that testimony, Horn probably would have been charged, and possibly convicted.

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #114)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 02:02 PM

138. They were coming toward him and he shot them in the back...

 

Man, that's better than Annie Oakley!

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #114)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 05:12 PM

148. The additional information means squat.

The facts are:
1. Horn observed what appeared to be an attempted burglary next door and called the cops.
2. It has never been shown that Horn had an ownership interest in the house next door, therefore that home was not his "castle."
3. The Dispatcher told him numerous times to not go after the burglars.
4. He was in no immediate danger in HIS OWN HOME.
5. The moment he left his house he formed intent which is premeditation.
6. If the men started walking towards him I cut him no slack because he intentionally put himself in that situation.
7. I personally think that he should have been charged with 1st Degree Murder.

I am sick and tired of crazy gun freaks moaning and groaning about how much their life is in danger when what they are doing is taking themselves from a 100% safe situation and intentionally confronting a person or persons that could be dangerous. There is a total lack of personal responsibility on ones own actions.

There is not doubt, in hearing what was on the tape that Horn left his house with every intention of putting those guys in the grant ound. Would you want to live next door to a nut like this?

I hope that the victims families sue him in civil court.

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Response to avebury (Reply #148)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 05:26 PM

149. I would not want to live next to him either.

I believe he gained civil immunity under Texas law for the grand jury no-bill.

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #149)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 07:03 PM

152. What is really sad is that what Horn learned

by this incident is that he can intentionally walk towards trouble and then kill people and get away with it. He has not been held accountable for his actions. There is nothing to ever stop him from doing it again.

Until society forces federal and state governments to enact reasonable gun laws I no longer have any sympathy for victims of gun crimes. There are some people who fail to properly secure their guns and then cry oh what a tragic accident when a child gets a hold of a gun and kills himself or someone else. God forbid if you actually held the gun owner accountable. Maybe if we started locking these idiots up,m people might actually think about securing their guns because it is apparent that their love for their children is not enough to make them responsible gun owners.

There was just an incident where a grandmother with known mental health issues who had access to a gun was allowed to pick up her grandchildren. And then people are shocked when she kills the grandchildren and herself? What is she doing with a gun in the first place?

The President stated at the State of the Union that there had been over 1000 gun related deaths since the Newtown shootings. Look at all of the incidents of mass murder.

What on earth do people expect? The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

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Response to avebury (Reply #81)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 01:45 PM

135. Horn Became An Immediate Hero Of The Gun Militancy Movement.


His crazed vigilante actions got plenty of support from some of our resident Gun Enthusiasts, back then. Lots of sweaty, wishful thinking at play here, as is usual on gun threads....

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Response to Paladin (Reply #135)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 03:23 PM

145. Did you hear the dispatcher recording?

 

Clearly...... he made the decision to MURDER!

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Response to rdharma (Reply #145)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 04:15 PM

147. "I'm gonna shoot! I'm gonna shoot!"


Absolutely stomach-turning.

The Gun Enthusiasts tried to cover the old fanatic's ass by saying he was only talking to dispatchers, and thus was free to ignore their stand-down pleas and fulfill his sick wish fulfillment with his guns. And he emerged a hero, because of what he did. We are WAY overdue for some serious course correction as to how firearms are viewed and utilized in this country, and the Joe Horn incident is a prime exhibit as to why, as far as I'm concerned.

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Response to Divine Discontent (Original post)

Wed Feb 27, 2013, 11:29 PM

12. K&R

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Response to Divine Discontent (Original post)

Wed Feb 27, 2013, 11:39 PM

15. even my ROE in iraq dictated proportionate response

means if someone tried to punch me I couldnt shoot them.

trying to shoot somebody for stealing wal mart shit (aka 'stuff') is lunacy. We were allowed to fire on anyone trying to steal say...a weapon system. Or comsec stuff. Not MREs, not bullshit from the PX.

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Response to pasto76 (Reply #15)

Wed Feb 27, 2013, 11:43 PM

19. good point -proportionate response not

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Response to Divine Discontent (Original post)

Wed Feb 27, 2013, 11:42 PM

18. Sounds like an uncomplicated attempted murder charge, pled down to assualt with a deadly weapon

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Response to cthulu2016 (Reply #18)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 12:30 AM

43. And following that felony conviction, never let that guy own a firearm again.

Where are all the teabaggers now saying "we ought to start by enforcing the laws we already have".

Kay. Let's.

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Response to Divine Discontent (Original post)

Wed Feb 27, 2013, 11:55 PM

20. The benefits of concealed carry

Capital punishment for shoplifting. WTF is wrong with people?

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #20)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 12:51 AM

54. Kind of a short trip

We already allow individuals to be judge, jury, and executioner whenever they imagine that they're in danger in public and, in their own home, it's well established that it's open season on anyone who enters.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #20)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 03:01 AM

72. Remember the good old days, where we just whacked off their hands?

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Response to Divine Discontent (Original post)

Wed Feb 27, 2013, 11:58 PM

22. Fleeing. Where was the mortal threat again? nt

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Response to Divine Discontent (Original post)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 12:03 AM

29. So much for training.

Lesson 1, Rule 1

The use of deadly force is not authorized to stop an unarmed petty thief.

Book this idiot!

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Response to Divine Discontent (Original post)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 12:13 AM

34. Judge, jury, jesus, police wannabe, executioner, supposedly responsible/law-abiding gun toter.


Common on many of our streets.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #34)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 12:36 AM

45. Neighborhood watch! nt

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Response to Divine Discontent (Original post)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 12:20 AM

36. The shooter needs to face felony charges

This shit needs to be taken seriously, I sure as hell don't want to be at the store when some idiot concealed carry asshole decides to open fire.

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Response to Divine Discontent (Original post)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 12:22 AM

37. The old west is over, gun nuts. And your 'golden age' is ending. nt

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Response to Divine Discontent (Original post)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 12:23 AM

38. Law 8,...there is only one penalty,...death.

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Response to Divine Discontent (Original post)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 12:28 AM

40. If we could confine all the gun idiots in the world to Wal*Marts

I could live with that.

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Response to Divine Discontent (Original post)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 12:30 AM

42. Juat another "law-abiding gun owner"....right up the moment he wasn't.

And with the proliferation and ease of getting a CCW, there will be more and more stories just like this.


Wannabe vigilantes with itchy trigger fingers who by plain dumb luck and poor shooting skills haven't shot anyone dead.

Now he's going to find out what not having a gun is like.

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Response to Divine Discontent (Original post)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 12:38 AM

46. A legally obtained gun doesn't make someone a "good guy."

It just makes him another guy with a gun.

The same qualities with which he makes other decisions in life... will be the same qualities he employs when using his gun.

===============

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Response to Divine Discontent (Original post)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 12:42 AM

47. Is there room in this thread

 

to heap some criticism at the thief that stole property and stampeded over a woman? Apparently there is more to the story.

http://www.wesh.com/news/central-florida/volusia-county/Armed-shopper-shoots-at-Walmart-shoplifter-police-say/-/12983450/19107006/-/prwfmy/-/index.html

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Response to 1983law (Reply #47)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 12:51 AM

53. Vgilantism is so cool

I like it: I see someone running from a potential crime scene in Florida, I gun him down. Anyone stealing from the great American institution of Walmart deserves to die immediately. Driving around shooting at alleged criminals could be a new tourist attraction for Florida. They could call it "Trayvoning". It could be like a big game hunt in Africa, with stuffed black kids as the take-home prize.

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Response to SansACause (Reply #53)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 02:01 AM

68. Did you watch the video?

 

It was reported that the perp nearly ran over folks with his car? It's damned different than some poor schmo ripping off some tic tacs and a carnival freak with a gun starts mindlessly shooting. Look, the shooter was wrong, but is this just an ant-gun thread or what?

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Response to 1983law (Reply #68)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 04:52 AM

76. Did you read the article?

McKee was stopped near South Kepler Road and East New York Avenue in DeLand, authorities said. He faces a misdemeanor charge.

Investigators said Martinez was charged with two felonies, but he does have a concealed weapons permit.


Attempted murder is not a misdemeanor charge, the thief is facing a misdemeanor charge and the shooter is facing two felonies.

Which one is more likely to be charged with attempted murder?


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Response to 1983law (Reply #47)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 12:54 AM

56. so arrest the fucker , doesn't walmart have cameras , security etc ?

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Response to 1983law (Reply #47)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 01:07 AM

59. Sure,criticize him all you want just don't pretend his actions justify opening fire in a parking lot

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Response to 1983law (Reply #47)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 11:01 AM

107. No.

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Response to 1983law (Reply #47)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 01:21 PM

129. no, we're all obviously pro-shoplifting..

feel free to criticize the shoplifter if it raises your moral superiority power level. suffice it to say, most of us are against shoplifting and trampling of people without feeling a need to go on record affirming that stance.

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Response to Divine Discontent (Original post)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 12:43 AM

48. Per the article

The shoplifter was charged with misdemeanors and the shooter was charged with 2 felonies.

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Response to catchnrelease (Reply #48)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 08:45 AM

94. Good...the shooter is a dangerous idiot who should be taken off the streets before he kills somebody

Maybe 18 months would be sufficient for him to understand that you don't blast away at shoplifters like you are Bruce Willis in Die Hard 7. Imbecile.

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Response to Divine Discontent (Original post)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 12:44 AM

49. Was the shoplifter wearing a hoodie?

After all, it is the one-year anniversary of the Trayvon Martin murder.

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Response to Divine Discontent (Original post)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 12:52 AM

55. fucking idiot, he should be banned from ever having another gun

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Response to JI7 (Reply #55)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 05:53 AM

79. I hope that is possible in Florida...eom

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Response to JI7 (Reply #55)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 10:58 AM

103. He should be imprisoned for life. He's a danger to the community. nt

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Response to Divine Discontent (Original post)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 01:02 AM

58. this guy is a moron

plain and simple, but he is not represantative of the entire group of CCW holders. There will always be bad apples, in everything. Look at all the people we give Drivers' licenses to

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Response to Divine Discontent (Original post)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 01:17 AM

61. Oh, for fuck's sake...

I worked retail for far too many years. I pounded it into my employees heads- if you are being robbed at the register, or someone is stealing, LET THEM GO. We pay insurance for losses of merchandise or cash- not lives.

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Response to Divine Discontent (Original post)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 01:30 AM

63. I see no one read page 2 of the article.

""He came at us," said Andrew Buongiorno. "(He) threw the car in reverse, tried to run us over. That's attempted murder.""

Whether that's true or not, I don't know. Doesn't exactly sound as cut and dried as the posts in this thread indicate, however.

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #63)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 09:43 AM

98. So, every time you back out of a parking space, it'a attempted murder?

Only in Sick Fuck Gun Hero World.

yup

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Response to jpak (Reply #98)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 11:53 AM

113. If one of the people involved in this altercation was standing there

yes, it is potentially grounds for self defense, possibly including the employment of lethal force in self defense.

(I would not use the words 'attempted murder', but it would meet various state laws about 'apprehension of imminent, serious bodily harm', which is the bar to employ force in self defense)

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #113)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 02:28 PM

140. Yes and alleged shoplifter being chased by strangers backed a car out while escaping them

sounds like a death penalty case to me!

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Response to jpak (Reply #140)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 02:33 PM

142. Some posters never change...

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #142)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 10:26 PM

160. Translation: "this being on the losing side of an argument really bites." Gotcha. n/t.

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Response to apocalypsehow (Reply #160)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 11:56 PM

162. JPak's tire equivocation between self defense and the 'death penalty' is certainly a winning argumen

t.

I bow to its rhetorical superiority.

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #113)

Fri Mar 1, 2013, 07:46 AM

165. I'm ok with charging the perp..

... with some sort of assault charge, as long as the idiots who got behind his car are charged with TERMINAL STUPIDITY.

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Response to sendero (Reply #165)

Fri Mar 1, 2013, 11:04 AM

166. Yeah, more details are coming out.

Doesn't sound like a justifiable shooting in the shooters own words.
We'll see, but I think it's highly probable he'll see some jail time for that. Probably more than the shoplifter.

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #63)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 01:30 PM

132. "That's attempted murder."

well, that will be up to the DA. as it stands, the suspect is being charged with a misdemeanor.

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Response to frylock (Reply #132)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 01:49 PM

136. Yeah, I saw the second article this morning.

Starting to sound like the shooter made a terrible mistake, and will pay for it.

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Response to Divine Discontent (Original post)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 01:33 AM

64. The woman the robber knocked down is actually grateful that Martinez shot at the thief

Buongiorno's husband said he thinks the citizen had a right to shoot.

"He came at us," said Andrew Buongiorno. "(He) threw the car in reverse, tried to run us over. That's attempted murder."



Read more: http://www.wesh.com/news/central-florida/volusia-county/Armed-shopper-shoots-at-Walmart-shoplifter-police-say/-/12983450/19107006/-/prwfmy/-/index.html#ixzz2MAmBPcY7



I'd need to see the videotape of that one. I still lean toward this being a reckless shooting.

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Response to Common Sense Party (Reply #64)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 06:57 AM

82. You never have a reason to shoot at someone unless you're trapped and can't get away...

lives are more valuable than things. I personally think all this cowboy gun stuff is crazy (and I own guns).

Obviously, the guy with the gun did not have good training or judgement.

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Response to Sancho (Reply #82)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 08:15 AM

91. Deadly force can be used

http://definitions.uslegal.com/u/use-of-deadly-force/


'Deadly force is generally defined as physical force which, under the circumstances in which it is used, is readily capable of causing death or serious physical injury. In order for deadly force to be justified there must be an immediate, otherwise unavoidable threat of death or grave bodily harm to yourself or other innocents. Deadly force is that force which could reasonably be expected to cause death or grave bodily harm.'

Not by the law, was he?

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Response to Divine Discontent (Original post)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 03:32 AM

73. This place is out of control...

I've lived here 20 years and the number of shooting is growing.

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Response to Divine Discontent (Original post)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 03:47 AM

75. Martinez told authorities he was trying to mark McKee's car.........

but officials said bullets landed inches away from the cars of bystanders

Wait a minute you shoot up a car to mark it....

The off duty officer propbably had more to contribute to this idiots arrest.

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Response to Historic NY (Reply #75)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 01:59 PM

137. oh yeh, i do that all the time. so much easier than memorizing a license plate.

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Response to frylock (Reply #137)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 10:28 PM

161. Yup. Most of us would just write the license plate number down

This reminds me of the old saying about for a hammer, every problem looks like a nail.

If you carry, every problem needs to be solved by your weapon.

For the rest of us, we simply write down the license plate number and get out of the way for the police to do their job.

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Response to Divine Discontent (Original post)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 05:32 AM

78. Regarding the shooting in Largo

I live near there everyone is talking about this because the man was only arrested for criminal mischief and shooting a gun in a occupied dwelling really. 25,000 dollar bail. Police said he did not point the gun at anyone.One woman hospitalized for stress. I can't believe our police.

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Response to Divine Discontent (Original post)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 06:49 AM

80. Loss prevention employees?

Is that "security guard" in English, or is it the little old lady who stands by the door and smiles? That's the problem with corporate euphemisms, they mean about anything or nothing. What they don't do is convey descriptive information. Of course a shoplifter is never "an unauthorized merchandise removal customer" Imagine that.

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Response to sulphurdunn (Reply #80)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 10:39 AM

101. Loss Prevention

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Response to Divine Discontent (Original post)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 07:01 AM

83. Who knows. . .?

Who knows, shoplifting at Walmart may be a Capital Crime? At least in Florida it could well be one.

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Response to another_liberal (Reply #83)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 08:30 AM

92. Walking home with a soda can get you killed here!

I really don't see the reason for all these people running around carrying guns (except that there are other people running around carrying guns!).

Really, the legislature here is collectively insane to allow all those guns on the street.

I've called, complained, and written my representatives - and some of them are truly out of touch.

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Response to Sancho (Reply #92)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 12:25 PM

115. Good for you!

They may be out of touch with people like you and me, but I'll bet they are quite in touch with the NRA's tens of thousands of dollars in campaign funding.

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Response to Sancho (Reply #92)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 01:16 PM

128. Yes.

A group can only be collectively insane when most of its members are individually insane.

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Response to Divine Discontent (Original post)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 07:31 AM

85. a lot happened in a short time, started with the woman knocked down and loud screams

Then the shooter had the cars door open and ordered the man to freeze? Was he branishing the gun? Then the car went in reverse towards people and the open door probably caused the reported injury to the shooter. Then he shoots the gun to 'mark' the car.

They're lucky the car didn't run over people and bullets didn't kill anyone.

The shoplifter got charged with a minor charge so maybe he was stealing food.

Two felony charges for the shooter

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Response to Divine Discontent (Original post)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 07:38 AM

86. If WalMart doesn't care about preventing shoplifting and harm to customers

enough to have more stringent controls in place, why would any thinking person go so far as shooting at a thief who knocked over a customer on his run out the door? Talk about getting involved in something that's not any of your business. Look at the precarious situation the shooter put himself and others in. The theft, the injuries the thief caused, that's all on WalMart because they didn't have controls in place.

To insert yourself into that situation is pure jackassery. Even if the shooter believed he was being assaulted by the fleeing thief as he backed his car toward him, having put himself in that situation was bone stupid.

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Response to Divine Discontent (Original post)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 07:50 AM

89. I think the off duty police officer had every right to help however he could within reason

The other guy was just simply playing a cowboy by drawing his gun and firing.

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Response to Divine Discontent (Original post)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 08:01 AM

90. "Ahm gunna be a HEERO!!"

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Response to hatrack (Reply #90)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 10:25 PM

159. Hahaaaahaaaaaa! Yep: that sums it up perfectly.

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Response to Divine Discontent (Original post)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 08:30 AM

93. Another moron with a gun. nt

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Response to Divine Discontent (Original post)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 10:57 AM

102. But the worst thing in the world is stealing from Wal-Mart. It deserves death, right?

That makes all the sense in the world, right?

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Response to Divine Discontent (Original post)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 10:58 AM

104. Goodguyswithguns.

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Response to Divine Discontent (Original post)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 11:42 AM

109. just get the license plate number

this stupid shit
this guy couldn't wait to fire on someone, he didn't even know what was going on
Death for shopping at Wallyworld sounds like a plan to me........not

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Response to Divine Discontent (Original post)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 11:47 AM

110. Why are you protect WalMart?

Is it even worth the cost of a bullet to stop a billion dollar company from losing twenty dollars? It sure isn't worth endangering the public!

are you thinking?

Must be that hero complex fired up by the NRA and their "good guy" nonsense!

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Response to Divine Discontent (Original post)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 12:32 PM

118. Well I bet Martinez

just got himself a boehner the size of Texas - being able to shoot and hit the bad guy.

And because of actions like this more people will carry guns believing they are dead eye dick, which will lead to tragedy.

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Response to Divine Discontent (Original post)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 12:34 PM

119. The woman who was knocked down said she thought she's been shot -

why would anyone think that?

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Response to Divine Discontent (Original post)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 12:55 PM

123. Was anyone in imminent danger of bodily harm?

If not, then the use of deadly force is illegal. You don't use deadly force to protect property.

(Unless, I guess, the stand your ground law applies here.)

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Response to Divine Discontent (Original post)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 01:04 PM

127. When shooting up the back of the car....

Did it occur to Martinez, that there might be little kids in the back seat?

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Response to cynzke (Reply #127)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 02:03 PM

139. that would be the fault of the children for placing themselves in proximity..

of this clearly deranged criminal.

gawd I hate to use this, but just in case

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Response to Divine Discontent (Original post)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 02:41 PM

143. Lucky no other customers were in the line of fire.

THIS is the shape of things to come as more people carry guns. Every Tom, Dick and Harry is going to be looking for his/her "cowboy" moment when they can save the day by shooting that big iron on their hip!

Innocent people will likely not be so lucky in the future.

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Response to Divine Discontent (Original post)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 03:02 PM

144. A gun is like an escalator.

When the gun goes up, the danger, the tension, and the likelihood of tragedy also rise inexorably, until the gun goes down. The only way to reverse that is to put the gun away again--which never happens easily.

If you are stupid enough to pull out a gun in a non-threatening situation, and then to use it, you are a criminal guilty of a crime far worse than the one in which you are interfering. In states like my own where a felony automatically revokes gun ownership (and voting rights) forever, that is the conviction I would be looking to secure as a prosecutor.

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Response to Divine Discontent (Original post)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 07:17 PM

153. I didn't know that shoplifting was a death penalty offense

And I'm betting the cops are so very glad that citizen got involved, reliving his childhood "Shootout at the OK Corral" fantasy. And why did a woman knocked to the ground believe she had been shot? I'm pretty sure getting knocked down by a fleeing person and getting shot feel totally different. I think she made that up after the fact.

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Response to Divine Discontent (Original post)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 10:15 PM

157. Who in the hell wants to protect walmart!!??

In this case, the guy should plead guilty for shoplifting then turn around a sue that jack-ass for attempted murder.

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Response to and-justice-for-all (Reply #157)

Fri Mar 1, 2013, 06:49 AM

164. some gun-toters regard Walmart as American as apple pie and adore it.

I've seen facebook profiles of my rightwing acquaintances, and several have walmart as likes, so it doesn't surprise one bit that a gun toter jumps into (gun a blazing!) something he has NO right being a part of - walmart's attempt to stop a thief.

someone above from FL said there's so much of this going on now there, and it's troubling - it's because there are so many people with guns now - gun sales have skyrocketed - so prepare for these idiotic stories every week.

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Response to Divine Discontent (Original post)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 10:24 PM

158. "Investigators said Martinez was charged with two felonies" - Good, I hope they throw the book at

him and let him cool his dangerous heels in the pen for twenty years. Another pro-NRA menace to society that thinks he's a reincarnation of John Wayne or Matt Dillon, strutting about town with a pistol perched in his pants just itching to blow some "bad guy" or "goblin" away, put innocent peoples lives in danger because he was having delusions of grandeur.

This is the kind of reckless, dangerous mentality that stokes so much of the pro-NRA "RKBA enthusiast" movement. Very disturbing the kind of mentality that thinks it needs to strut through Wal Mart with a PRD tucked away in their pajamas.

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