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Wed Feb 20, 2013, 07:08 PM

Effects of Bullying Last Into Adulthood, Study Finds

Source: NY Times

Victims of bullying at school, and bullies themselves, are more likely to experience psychiatric problems in childhood, studies have shown. Now researchers have found that elevated risk of psychiatric trouble extends into adulthood, sometimes even a decade after the intimidation has ended.

The new study, published in the journal JAMA Psychiatry on Wednesday, is the most comprehensive effort to date to establish the long-term consequences of childhood bullying, experts said.

It documents the elevated risk across a wide range of mental health outcomes and over a long period of time, said Catherine Bradshaw, an expert on bullying and a deputy director of the Center for the Prevention of Youth Violence at Johns Hopkins University, which was not involved in the study.

The experience of bullying in childhood can have profound effects on mental health in adulthood, particularly among youths involved in bullying as both a perpetuator and a victim, she added.

Read more: http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/02/20/effects-of-bullying-last-into-adulthood-study-finds/

78 replies, 9353 views

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Reply Effects of Bullying Last Into Adulthood, Study Finds (Original post)
Redfairen Feb 2013 OP
KamaAina Feb 2013 #1
raccoon Feb 2013 #29
burnsei sensei Feb 2013 #70
Cha Feb 2013 #2
Jefferson23 Feb 2013 #3
BlancheSplanchnik Feb 2013 #65
rhett o rick Feb 2013 #4
DaveJ Feb 2013 #7
caseymoz Feb 2013 #11
CBHagman Feb 2013 #17
caseymoz Feb 2013 #19
rhett o rick Feb 2013 #24
caseymoz Feb 2013 #27
rhett o rick Feb 2013 #30
caseymoz Feb 2013 #46
rhett o rick Feb 2013 #22
caseymoz Feb 2013 #25
Scootaloo Feb 2013 #26
caseymoz Feb 2013 #28
RobinA Feb 2013 #31
caseymoz Feb 2013 #45
alcibiades_mystery Feb 2013 #33
DaveJ Feb 2013 #36
magical thyme Feb 2013 #37
caseymoz Feb 2013 #39
DaveJ Feb 2013 #44
HughBeaumont Feb 2013 #5
uriel1972 Feb 2013 #6
Diclotican Feb 2013 #9
uriel1972 Feb 2013 #42
Diclotican Feb 2013 #47
Paladin Feb 2013 #59
Posteritatis Feb 2013 #10
caseymoz Feb 2013 #20
Joe Bacon Feb 2013 #58
Jennicut Feb 2013 #41
Diclotican Feb 2013 #8
elzenmahn Feb 2013 #12
caseymoz Feb 2013 #15
magical thyme Feb 2013 #38
caseymoz Feb 2013 #43
magical thyme Feb 2013 #49
caseymoz Feb 2013 #61
magical thyme Feb 2013 #63
magical thyme Feb 2013 #52
MindPilot Feb 2013 #60
caseymoz Feb 2013 #62
elzenmahn Feb 2013 #74
caseymoz Feb 2013 #76
RobinA Feb 2013 #32
Diclotican Feb 2013 #48
elzenmahn Feb 2013 #75
Diclotican Feb 2013 #77
burnsei sensei Feb 2013 #71
Diclotican Feb 2013 #72
caseymoz Feb 2013 #13
rocktivity Feb 2013 #14
caseymoz Feb 2013 #16
Paladin Feb 2013 #35
subterranean Feb 2013 #18
Douglas Carpenter Feb 2013 #21
RobinA Feb 2013 #34
Joe Bacon Feb 2013 #54
nobodyspecial Feb 2013 #51
shanti Feb 2013 #53
Joe Bacon Feb 2013 #55
raccoon Feb 2013 #73
Douglas Carpenter Feb 2013 #57
neversaydie Apr 2013 #78
Fire Walk With Me Feb 2013 #23
Sunlei Feb 2013 #40
Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2013 #50
Joe Bacon Feb 2013 #56
nightscanner59 Feb 2013 #66
RobinA Feb 2013 #67
LiberalEsto Feb 2013 #64
The Flaming Red Head Feb 2013 #68
treestar Feb 2013 #69

Response to Redfairen (Original post)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 07:40 PM

1. "and bullies themselves"

That would explain a lot about Mittwit (cut the hair off a classmate he perceived to be gay), Dumbya (shoved M-80s up frogs' butts), etc., etc.

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Response to KamaAina (Reply #1)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 08:26 AM

29. I didn't know that about Dumbya. That is awful. It is even more awful that someone like that could


be selected POTUS. Makes me think of Caligula.


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Response to raccoon (Reply #29)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 05:49 PM

70. I think one commentator did call him

"Caligula on the Potomac."

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Response to Redfairen (Original post)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 07:44 PM

2. We saw that first hand on a national stage with

mitt romney.

Sorry to bring up that bully, again.

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Response to Redfairen (Original post)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 07:45 PM

3. Horrific consequences even when qualified as they do below....amazing. K&R

Bullies who were also victims were particularly troubled: they were 14.5 times more likely to develop panic disorder as adults, compared to those who did not experience bullying, and 4.8 times more likely to experience depression. Men who were both bullies and victims were 18.5 times more likely to have had suicidal thoughts in adulthood, compared to the participants who had not been bullied or perpetuators. Their female counterparts were 26.7 times more likely to have developed agoraphobia, compared to children not exposed to bullying.

Bullies who were not victims of bullying were 4.1 times more likely to have antisocial personality disorder as adults than those never exposed to bullying in their youth.

The effects persisted even after the researchers accounted for pre-existing psychiatric problems or other factors that might have contributed to psychiatric disorders, like physical or sexual abuse, poverty and family instability.

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Response to Jefferson23 (Reply #3)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 05:47 PM

65. those of us who lived it know it shapes who you become. Overcoming the effects

is a lifelong battle.

I would hypothesize that parentally abused kids are more likely to be bullied as well, due to behaviors that attract bullying abuse ( like timidity, needyness, social awkwardness, fearfulness)

Personal experience

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Response to Redfairen (Original post)


Response to rhett o rick (Reply #4)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 08:07 PM

7. It ought to be easy for non-bullies to stick up for victims too.

I haven't seen those bully threads in Meta, but it sounds like an interesting bullying technique.

In some instances, an individual will be bullied over legitimate opinions where it's not just debate but gets outright personal. When that happens, I (used to be, now it's expected) am surprised that people just read and never stand up for the victim. Awhile ago I'd scan posts looking for someone being flamed, just to support them. I think the bully becomes not so much the focal point for the victim as the bystanders who did nothing.

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #4)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 09:28 PM

11. Sorry, that's not bullying.

Bullying are actions in childhood that are considered criminal when you're an adult, usually threats, physical assault, and extortion. Criticizing what people say, even emphatically, even in separate threads, isn't bullying. Unless their posts threaten someone, your family, defame your professional or private reputations, or your livelihood, it isn't bullying. On this site, that includes bringing private lives up for ridicule. In other words, if there are no consequence outside the cyberworld (and I'm not talking about emotional ones,) it's not bullying.

But as you've said, if the threads you describe are really bullying, then let the juries do their jobs. Don't make a post such as yours, which call certain people out. (They know who they are, you've made it plain by saying "sanitize with sunlight.") That's bullying.

No, that's not bullying by my definition. I'm just showing you how unworkable your designation of bullying really is. You have to be pretty careful what you call cyber-bullying or any trace of free speech goes away.

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Response to caseymoz (Reply #11)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 10:16 PM

17. I have a pretty broad definition of bullying.

It's fairly common, including among adults, and need not rise to the level of an activity that could bring a lawsuit or a restraining order. Bullying involves combinations of manipulation, including playing the victim, aggression, and manipulation of power.

The juries on DU aren't really a defense against bullying, just a flawed and unscientific means of providing a bit of screening and/or enforcement of community standards. Alerts range from serious concerns to standard weeding out of spam to personal pique.

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Response to CBHagman (Reply #17)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 10:45 PM

19. Maybe not as broad as other peoples'.


Problem is, if it's a matter "manipulation, including playing the victim, aggression, and manipulation of power." Those are all subjective judgments. You'll have so many complaints and counter-complaints of bullying, that in practice, your moderators will miss a lot of things that are really bullying, no if's and's or but's. Make all the nuisances into bullying won't suppress them, because those are common, annoying behaviors. What it will do is overwhelm moderators or juries so that the truly nefarious cases will get through.

Plus, when you broaden the definition, a lot of people won't vote with you because they could think of one time or another they might have been accused of doing those things, and thought they were right.

Lastly, you should come up with something that doesn't conflict directly with free speech.

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Response to caseymoz (Reply #19)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 01:14 AM

24. Yes subjectivity enters into the equation. Welcome to life.

It isnt hard to prevent or at least reduce the bullying. No pejorative name calling, no excuses, none allowed. No ridicule, taunting or harassment of any other DU posters. The alert/jury system isnt perfect, but work with it. No taking the law into your own hands and calling out other DU posters because you dont like the jury results.

It's the conservative among us that dont believe in due process. They want to hang someone, anyone that remotely looks like a troll. They are like Zimmerman. To keep the neighborhood safe it may be necessary to take actions that hurt innocent people.

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #24)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 02:15 AM

27. You just bullied me!

"Welcome to life?" How rude! That's a ridicule and a taunt. You just said there's no excuse. So, are you going to give one?

Just so you know, I'm not totally exaggerating. My blood pressure went up a few ticks reading that. Therefore, I could argue you were doing me physical harm, since corticosteroids harm my body. I could call that bullying, but I don't, because that's the price of coming onto a discussion board.

The jury system is not just flawed, it's fatally flawed as designed, but that's for Meta. (It's fatally flawed in the US justice system, too.) I won't go into that here.

You're cracked if you think what Zimmerman did is anything like an argument on DU. You've lost all sense of proportion. Shooting a guy to death has no comparison to a remote argument done with written words. None. You're crazy if you think anything said in on DU can make you the moral equivalent of Zimmerman.

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Response to caseymoz (Reply #27)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 08:36 AM

30. Yes, I agree that my comment was rude and I apologize.

It's a matter of degree.

Of course I dont equate bullying on DU with Zimmerman's actions. It's a matter of degree. If I say "welcome to life", and you say "you're cracked", it certainly isnt like "get fucked" or "your a troll and need PPR". All I am trying to say is there has to be a line we dont cross. And I dont think it is hard to figure out that line. That's what we have juries for.

The jury system isnt perfect because DU members are humans and make mistakes. But let's keep these mistakes in proportion. If a DU jury lets someone get away with something, more than likely that person will get hidden the next time around. Trolls eventually expose themselves. Use the system of alert/jury. If you think it's flawed, propose improvements. We dont need special threads to call-them out suspected trolls.

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #30)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 10:27 AM

46. Wow. We agree!

I think there's a line there, too, except I also told you where it lies. Unless somebody's dropping documents, or threatens, or is posting damaging, personal pictures, or something like that, I don't see where even threads meant to call out accused trolls are harmful. But to be consistent, you should let the jury system work there. If you trust that it works, you should trust that jurors will hide such threads, whether they all agree it's bullying or not. Even if it's not bullying, it might still be considered rude, extreme, or insulting, and those could all be reasons.

However, the jury system mathematically doesn't work. It's not a matter of humans on it making mistakes either; the people who concocted it made a mistake.

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Response to caseymoz (Reply #11)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 01:05 AM

22. When one poster singles out another poster and calls them names

and calls for them to be PPR'd when they havent been found guilty by a jury or the Admins thru normal methods, that's bullying. They are calling them out to get support from their friends to ridicule, taunt and harass the poster. Apparently they want the poster to either leave or lash out and break TOS. It is no different than in the school yard.

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #22)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 01:58 AM

25. Yeah, but the difference is . . .


. . . the poster has an "Ignore" button and can keep it on until things cool down. Not only that, there are juries that can remove the offending posts and also a means of locking and removing threads if they get out of control.

In the real life school yard, you can't ignore because then you get assaulted and battered. Moderators, or whoever, cannot "lock" the school yard fight. You don't have teams of jury kids throwing the bullies out of the yard. In fact, since it's all written, you have to read the posts instead of involuntarily hearing insults called to you. The victim can also just leave if they're hurt until their feelings heal then come back and defend themselves. The stakes and avoidability are both different.

Therefore, you're wrong. It's extremely different than the school yard, and you just never thought of the many ways before.

It isn't bullying. Sorry.

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Response to caseymoz (Reply #25)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 02:06 AM

26. The trouble with the ignore button...

Is that it will hide entire threads that the person has posted on. Using the ignore feature isolates you from the rest of the community, in effect.

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #26)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 02:21 AM

28. Which is why you don't have to keep it on forever.


Isn't it great? You can take them off Ignore when you want. What makes you think everybody starts a lot of threads? You can also study what the person has written and see if they ever say anything important.

You have one thing you never have when you're bullied: the ability to absolutely make the person bugger off when you want them to. And tell them first, so they can stop wasting their time.

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Response to caseymoz (Reply #28)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 08:41 AM

31. Really

Bullying on DU? Nothing here comes close to what bullied kids experience. Rudeness is not bullying. People can just not come here. It's a message board for cripes sake, it's not life.

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Response to RobinA (Reply #31)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 10:15 AM

45. Thanks.


People who think verbal exchanges compare to bullying have never been knocked out on a school yard before.

Though it's unfortunate if somebody leaves because of rudeness. That's bad, but that's a different issue.

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Response to caseymoz (Reply #11)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 08:48 AM

33. Every action people don't like is now "Bullying"

It's the new master term for bad behavior. It takes dominion everywhere, as the poet once said.

If you don't like somebody, that person is a bully. And that makes you, of course, the bully's victim who is standing up for herself or himself. Which is very heroic, and etc.

This is the way some people represent all of social life these days. Indeed, this very post makes me a "supporter of bullies," which makes me a "bully." And you can be sure that some folks have already decided that I am a DU bully, or some such.

That this discourse is actually quite dangerous goes without saying.

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Response to alcibiades_mystery (Reply #33)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 09:11 AM

36. I agree that this is a strict definition of bullying, but I think it's legitimate.

There are some people who could never physically bully a person, so they find other more psychological ways.

I'm a big guy, relatively strong, does that mean I can't be bullied?

Words can be just as hurtful as actions. People should not think it is 'ok' to say whatever they want, under the pretense that words do not hurt people.

Nothing in this thread falls under the definition of cyber bullying, but I have seen posts that were very personal, where it was clear that one person was doing their best to be hurtful, while the pother person was defending their self, while everyone else just read as though it were all fun and games. Yes you can just hit ignore, but that's like telling a bullying victim it's their own fault because they did not run away.

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Response to caseymoz (Reply #11)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 09:30 AM

37. Sorry, you don't get to impose your definition on the world

In this post, you categorically state "that is not bullying" in the title, and then at the bottom of your post you amend it to say "No, that's not bullying by my definition." And then in your next post you try to extend your definition as one accepted by "most people." I'm sorry, but you don't get to tell "most people" what they believe based on your personal opinion.

From Wikipedia: "Bullying can be defined in many different ways. The UK currently has no legal definition of bullying, while some U.S. states have laws against it. Bullying consists of three basic types of abuse emotional, verbal, and physical. It typically involves subtle methods of coercion* such as intimidation.

Bullying ranges from simple one-on-one bullying to more complex bullying in which the bully may have one or more "lieutenants" who may seem to be willing to assist the primary bully in his or her bullying activities. Bullying in school and the workplace is also referred to as peer abuse. Robert W. Fuller has analyzed bullying in the context of rankism."

For the record, I don't think threatening to hurt somebody (or their animals) or threatening to fire somebody is particularly subtle. And it's not necessarily criminal.

For example, a manager with firing power can be very threatening and intimidating without having to actually resort to blatant threats. I was threatened last year by our lab manager, who makes a point of letting every new employee know her husband is a lawyer, when she started slamming her desk and desk drawers, looking for my file folder and growling legalese at me while she denied our job interview conversation regarding night shift.

And a manager's "lieutenants" (eg cronies) can achieve much mischief by bearing false witness against a targeted peer. None of which is criminal and can be impossible to prove. It simply becomes multiple employee's false words against one.

That said, I agree that we need to depend on an imperfect jury system, and trust that sooner or later repeat bulliers and stalkers will have posts hidden until they are PPRd (or peppered, as I like to call it).

I didn't see the self-deleted post you are responding to, but agree that "calling people out," especially in other threads, is counter-productive (and, imo, is a form of stalking and counter-bullying).

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Response to magical thyme (Reply #37)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 09:47 AM

39. Sorry, you don't get to either.

Neither do your "authorities" on Wikipedia. Your objection implies that your definition is a settled fact. It isn't. People will read the point I made, and I hope, see the impracticality and downright wrongness of trying to apply the word bully to every aggravating action, and to define it in their minds very carefully. It doesn't stop anymore bullying if you go after everything else you can fit under the lable.

The manager with firing power threatens your livelihood. I don't understand how you could not see that I was including threats in the definition of bullying. Now you're simply misconstruing what I wrote, creating a straw man.

Believe me, I've been at the receiving end of many types of bullying, and I'm permanently, physically injured on account of it. You don't have to give me a lesson on the many varieties that there are.

I'm sorry, the "eventually justice will be done argument" often doesn't work when damage being done is immediate. And when you talk about a retaliation thread being hidden, how do you know the original, offending post wasn't a matter of bullying that the jury wouldn't hide?

The jury system is not just flawed, it's fatally flawed. The only way it works is by random chance. Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

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Response to caseymoz (Reply #39)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 10:15 AM

44. I don't understand why you are standing up against the misuse of the term 'bully'.

I'd rather error on the side of caution, and try not to bully, if there is any doubt.

Nobody is talking about punishing people who are accused of online bullying. I think people should just be more sensitive to it.

If you really want to see mean folks hiding behind the veil of online anonymity, one could go to Yahoo Answers and see how people reply there. They think that personal feeling are totally off the table just because they are online. I think that is wrong. I would not contemplate retaliation, I would just ask folks to be more sensitive.

Of course you could say that being mean and being a bully are two different things. I think that someone going around being mean all the time is a bully. I'm not sure if that totally fits any prescribed definition, but it's close enough for me.

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Response to Redfairen (Original post)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 07:52 PM

5. K & R. I'll never accept "Come on, we were just kids" or "Move on". Sorry.

I still resent.

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Response to HughBeaumont (Reply #5)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 08:01 PM

6. Yeah, and "Time heals all wounds." like hell it does. nt

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Response to uriel1972 (Reply #6)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 08:41 PM

9. uriel1972

uriel1972

Time can make the wounds more easy to bear - but hell no it never really heal - you wil always have the wounds with you - even if your skin is more or less intact...

I still after all this year - not been on any re-union even though I have said I would come.. I have no interest in walk in the same room again, as the ones who bullied me for 9 years... And who gave me some wounds it took year to overcome at later schools..

Diclotican

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Response to Diclotican (Reply #9)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 10:02 AM

42. Heh, I've never been invited to a reunion...

Which is a shame, I would have liked to have had the opportunity to say, no.

Bitter, moi? A little, but I try to get past it.

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Response to uriel1972 (Reply #42)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 11:09 AM

47. uriel1972

uriel1972

I do not think you have lost out of anything worth going to - even thought it is a little pleasure in saying NO to re-unions too.... And if you want, tell them why you do not want to be at the re-union.... But then again, it maybe makes them a little pleasure that you have not forgotten dem...

Well, we all have to try get past it, even if it is hard - difficult to go past it - as some of behavior you learned to have, to cope with school yard bulling still will be a part of you... And, at least at my experience, it often is like you will have a target on your head, who says "bully" me even at grown up age... It is my experience at least sometimes..

Diclotican

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Response to uriel1972 (Reply #42)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 12:48 PM

59. You Can Contact Your High School For Reunion Details---If You Ever Want To.


If it salves any wounds, my experience has been that a lot of school bullies are "Peakers." Being a high school football player may be as good as it gets in the lives of such people; the kids they bullied seem to be the ones who end up getting professional degrees and doing well for themselves.....

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Response to uriel1972 (Reply #6)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 08:43 PM

10. Yeah. A few of mine have, more than a few haven't.

Generally speaking people who casually throw around "get over it" don't have a lot of it over which to get.

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Response to uriel1972 (Reply #6)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 11:05 PM

20. The article said ten years?


Ten years to get over it? Try decades. Try a lifetime.

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Response to uriel1972 (Reply #6)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 12:47 PM

58. No it doesn't.

And when assholes who beat me in school send a friend request through Facebook, I give it to them with both barrels.

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Response to HughBeaumont (Reply #5)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 09:56 AM

41. I dread high school for my daughters although I know they probably (hopefully) won't

experience what I did. They are only in 2nd and 3rd grade so they have a ways to go still. But I still worry.
My parents still live in the town I grew up in where I went to school. I don't even like being in the town.

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Response to Redfairen (Original post)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 08:39 PM

8. Redfairen

Redfairen

You will ALWAYS have the result of bullying in school times with you - for the rest of your natural life.. I am a 36 year old man - who have some psychiatric problems - mostly because of school bullying... And it is something I am afraid I will have with me, as long as I live; Even though I do have mastered life to a degree, I do have some real issues, who come from my childhood experiences..

School bullying should be a crime - a real, crime where bullies should face serious time for what they do - and also that the schools, should be hold responsible for what happening on their premises - regardless of what the bullying is. If the head masters - and teaches had been hold responsible for bullying from pupils - and where the punishment would be more than just a slap over the wrist - permanent records for teaches and head masters - then I suspect the issue of school bullying - The whole issue of bullying would be far more important than it is today..

Diclotican

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Response to Diclotican (Reply #8)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 09:46 PM

12. As somebody who experienced bullying and it's effects...

...the only question I would have with criminalizing bullying across-the-board is that much of it becomes less physical, and much more psychological, as kids get older (at least that was my experience.).
The fists and physical assaults are often replaced with ostracizing, the overt namecalling and harassment can often give way to more subtle forms of psychological game playing, as kids get more sophisticated socially.

Proving overt bullying to a jury, to me, is less problematic than the more covert types (which can be just as much, if not more, injurious.)

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Response to elzenmahn (Reply #12)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 10:06 PM

15. I think our entire status ladder is determined by bullying.


So far. The people who reach the top are ones like Mitt Romney and George W. Bush. If we can stopped bullying, we would have a completely different society.

But you have to be careful what you call bullying online, especially when it's on a discussion board. What happened to Amanda Todd, where somebody posted nude pictures of her, that was bullying, and several other things. Calling somebody a name on DU, that's not bullying.

Please remember: bullying is behavior in children that we would call criminal in adults. Things like threats, assault and extortion. It's not simple name-calling.

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Response to caseymoz (Reply #15)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 09:41 AM

38. that's the 2nd time you've claimed a definition of bullying

"Please remember: bullying is behavior in children that we would call criminal in adults. Things like threats, assault and extortion. It's not simple name-calling."

Please cite a source for that definition of bullying.

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Response to magical thyme (Reply #38)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 10:06 AM

43. You need an authority figure to think with?


I gave my thoughts behind it. Think about it yourself, "do the math," accept it, or don't. And if you can't accept it, well read a post that's less disturbing to you, or one that you can figure out.

Acts of independent thought don't have authorities. Such as Pythagoras didn't cite an authority when he reasoned out the Pythagorean Theorem. Nobody checked his authorities when they confirmed it was true. They reasoned it themselves, and it checked out on its own. I'm guessing that math isn't your forte, though.

The people who are the final "authorities" are the ones who came up with the ideas themselves, without other authorities.

Ask for an authority for something esoteric, like the total number of bacterial cells in the human gut, or the accepted medical definition of Crohn's Disease, but don't demand an authority for a thought.

I gave good reasons on why people should consider what I gave was the definition of "bullying." Think about it yourself, accept the reasoning, or don't.

Or if you want, study case law about it. But I'm afraid you'll probably find the definition there isn't to your liking either. What do lawyers know?

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Response to caseymoz (Reply #43)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 11:29 AM

49. no, I do not "need an authority figure to think with"

But thank you for the thinly veiled attempt at manipulation and humiliation via oblique personal attack. Oddly, by some people's definitions, that would be defined as attempted verbal bullying, especially in light of the diversion into Pythagoras that followed. I suppose I could reply with a comment about your writing skills and reading comprehension, but that would be equally rude and wouldn't solve the disconnect here.

In any event, no need to apologize. My very low normal bp (100/60, bottom of normal range; thank you for asking) remained very low. In fact, you gave me a chuckle.

We are at "cross-posts" at this point; that is, I replied to 2 of your posts, after which you replied to 2 of mine. For convenience sake, I will reply to both of your replies here, albeit not in any particular order.

First, I asked for a reference because you have repeated defined bullying without qualifiers to clarify that it is your opinion, and with qualifiers that suggest your definition is a fact.

Second, I do *not* believe there is any one definition of bullying. That is the essence of both my replies to your posts. Note that the wiki quote I posted specifically does *not* define bullying; it states that bullying is hard to define and follows with a general description of common characteristics of bullying.

Third: lawyers presumably know the law. Btw, if you are citing a legal definition of bullying, that would be a useful qualifier.

Fourth: "I'm guessing that math isn't your forte, though."

Another attempted barb that missed the mark. You are guessing wrong. As it happens, I was an honors math student in jr. high, but changed directions in high school to psychology and fine arts. My 1st bachelors degree was in fine arts. Several decades later I returned to college for a medical science degree, completing pre-med level statistics with roughly a 98% average and pre-med level chemistry (mostly applied mathematics, and some physics) with roughly 100% average. My only grades that were less than "A" were in writing and literature (B+ and A- respectively); embarrassing since I made a very good living as a writer for nearly 2 decades. Despite those 2 "low" grades, in a program that was otherwise all applied mathematics and pre-med level and clinical sciences that incorporated applied mathematics, I graduated summa cum laude.

Now, the crux of my replies to your posts:

I am referring to word choices and specific qualifiers that you use. In only one post do you go on to qualify that definition as your personal opinion. Elsewhere, you claim that others are wrong for their opinions and you use qualifiers that suggest your definition is fact.

If you are going to claim something as fact, be prepared to cite a source for that fact. If you do not mean to claim something as fact, you may want to reconsider your wording and use qualifiers. A simple "imo" would clarify.


Here are examples of where you appear to claim your definition of bullying as fact, versus personal opinion:

"Sorry, that's not bullying.
Bullying are actions in childhood that are considered criminal when you're an adult, usually threats, physical assault, and extortion. Criticizing what people say, even emphatically, even in separate threads, isn't bullying. Unless their posts threaten someone, your family, defame your professional or private reputations, or your livelihood, it isn't bullying. On this site, that includes bringing private lives up for ridicule. In other words, if there are no consequence outside the cyberworld (and I'm not talking about emotional ones,) it's not bullying."

(80+ words to define bullying, what is is and what it is not. Only 3 words -- by my definition -- buried in the last paragraph state this is your personal opinion. And that is the *only* time you qualified it as personal opinion, in what is a very long and tangled thread.)

"People who think verbal exchanges compare to bullying have never been knocked out on a school yard before."

"Therefore, you're wrong. It's extremely different than the school yard, and you just never thought of the many ways before.

It isn't bullying."
(Someone is wrong because they define bullying differently than you -- that suggests a statement of fact, not a disagreement of opinion. More definition of what is/isn't bullying, without a qualifier.)


"Please remember: bullying is behavior in children that we would call criminal in adults. Things like threats, assault and extortion. It's not simple name-calling." (Again, a qualifier that suggests your definition is fact, instead of a more appropriate qualifier that what follows is opinion.)

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Response to magical thyme (Reply #49)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 03:26 PM

61. If I cited an authority . . .

. . . would you feel as free to doubt me? What if my "authority" didn't use qualifiers either? Would you then take it as fact, or would you write the author and demand they insert them? Is the point really that I have to sync up my definition to some Joe Schmo who puts it on Wikipedia (your source)?

I'm declaring a position. In a declaration, it's silly and poor writing to insert qualifiers.

For example, Thomas Jefferson didn't say, "All men are created approximately equal, and they're endowed, or maybe given, by whoever the spiritual authority is-- if He or She (or it) exists-- with prerogatives, that might be called rights, but you can use whatever word you think better describes them." or "The King has been a little pissy here recently. Some have even suggested that he's a little tyrannical, now and then."

If I had any doubt over what definition I was going with, or which one I recommended, believe me, I would have inserted doubt.

Otherwise, it's up to you figure out just how much doubt there is. Since a word is something our minds construct as a representation of something in the world, and since we have individual minds defining it, the definition is intrinsically a matter of opinion. With your education, you've figured that out. Therefore, if I'm certain of what my opinion is, and you already know I'm expressing an opinion, qualifiers aren't necessary. I'm not going to reassure you on this point by inserting them. Can't you put that together? The whole thing has big qualifier on it already, no matter which authority I cite.

Now, if it were something were something like the half life of Cesium 134, and presuming we aren't scientists, so precision isn't critical, I would say it's about two years. But if I were asked what is Cesium, and I were a nuclear scientist, I would be careful to get the definition right, and to put no qualifiers on it. Too many minds have agreed for a long time on what it is, and the cost of dissenting from the accepted definition is too high.

"In any event, no need to apologize. My very low normal bp (100/60, bottom of normal range; thank you for asking) remained very low. In fact, you gave me a chuckle."


If you wouldn't have had the corticosteroids flowing, you wouldn't have had the motivation to give a 750 word answer. Therefore, I suggest you take your blood pressure before you give a smug answer. You would have found that it ticked up when you read my response, as indicated by your being testy to start. It wouldn't have gone up to the borderline range, I think, but it would have risen. It has cost, but you don't worry about that when you have a lot in the bank.

In fact, I do have high blood pressure. The main reason it was on my mind for an example was, I had just doubled my medication because of the level it was at. That was meant as an illustration, and not a joke-- at all. Thank you for asking.

If you're offended by somebody knowing what his opinions are and therefore expressing them without doubt, if you can't imagine modifiers in writing that's-- without a doubt-- declaring an opinion, then definitely I'm not going to make you happy.

(Someone is wrong because they define bullying differently than you -- that suggests a statement of fact, not a disagreement of opinion. More definition of what is/isn't bullying, without a qualifier.)


Suggests? Like, somebody reading this who disagrees with me can't tell already? In this context, when I say they're wrong, it means I'm not going by their definition, nor recommend other people do so, because I find the opposing definition defective, and harmful, and I don't tell people to do things I wouldn't do myself. Again, why should I express doubt when I don't feel it? How honest is that?

Provisionally, I stand corrected about your education. However, if your education is that good, then your whole complaint has no excuse as far as I'm concerned. You know better. You know exactly what I'm doing, and you're just picking a fight over something you already understand. You're just demanding humbleness where none is required. Forget it.

If somebody isn't sure if what I'm writing is an opinion, then a bunch of qualifiers just muddy up the prose so they also can't understand me or grow bored with my point. If they do understand already, why do they need qualifiers every second sentence? Etiquette? I never heard of those manners.

Second, I do *not* believe there is any one definition of bullying. That is the essence of both my replies to your posts.


Except if cyber-bullying is going to become a crime among adults, and people are going to be prosecuted and lose their freedom over it, we better come to an agreement on a definition. When five years of somebody's life is at stake, "community standards" doesn't cut it as far as I'm concerned.

Similarly, if we're going to throw people off this site for it, then it's only ethical to know what the word means.

Consensus hasn't been reached yet, though. My definition is meant to compete. So I give it the best argument I can. Do you care to dispute it on its basis? If you want to discuss it on its merits, let's do it. If you want to discuss the consequences of people going with my definition, I'm ready.

However, if you want to quibble any more about inserting qualifiers, or whether my opinion matches anybody else, authority or not, that subject is closed. I won't read any of your posts along those lines. If I see another one, I'll just put you on Ignore.

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Response to caseymoz (Reply #61)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 04:05 PM

63. you of course always have the option of putting me on ignore

and I do apologize if my posts raised your elevated bp, and am sorry that you have high bp. I was quite serious, and not trying to be smug, about my bp. It really did remain quite low.

I wrote a lengthy reply for a number of reasons, not the least of which is that you are writing lengthy, apparently declarative posts in this thread, which is a topic of interest to me and so attracted my attention. If you read my more recent reply to you, you will understand why.

Also, I am at home alone and lonely, so seeking "conversation" of sorts with humans, while simultaneiously avoiding chores that I don't feel like doing. I also felt you deserved a lengthy reply that explained my position, you wrote some snarky comments that merited a like response, and so on. My lengthy response to your math snark was to pat myself on the back a bit. I went through a 2-year clinical science program with the intention of continuing on, but my math skills were not adequate to compensate for human resources blatant lies to a classmate and to me about the real salary range for the local jobs, nor were they adequate to compensate for the university's blatant lies about local job placement. Since I got very little in return for my new degree, I at least like to remind myself that I did quite well in school, in a very earnest, yet naive way.

I would remind you that Jefferson was writing, "The Declaration of Independence" which gave clear context to what he was writing. Likewise, *now* I know that you were expressing your opinion. That was not clear in any of your posts except one.

One confusion within this thread is switching back and forth between discussing bullying as a crime versus discussing bullying on DU. They are two different discussions and it's hard to keep the topics separated within each individual post.

Lastly, before you put me on ignore, I see citing a source or including a qualifier simply as providing context for the reader. It helps readers to understand where you are coming from. Often when people go to the trouble to write extensively on the topic, they want people to read and understand their writing.

That is all. Now you can feel free to put me on ignore. Certainly I have put a few people on ignore who do succeed in raising my bp. I think you may be the first to put me on, but don't know for sure. Nobody has announced it to me before!

Please do try to enjoy the rest of your day. Again, I am sorry about your BP and, as I wrote in my last post, for all that you have suffered. As I wrote there, I can understand some of your suffering, although my experience of physical bullying came from my (now estranged) immediate family.

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Response to caseymoz (Reply #43)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 12:24 PM

52. Another thing I wanted to add

In perusing a number of your posts, I saw that you were bullied to the point of having permanent physical damage.

I am so sorry for what you suffered in school, and what you continue to suffer today.

I can relate somewhat. At school, I was ostracized and called names (fairy, queer, ugly, and other things I won't go into here). What my classmates didn't know was that I went home to a family of bullies.

My eldest sister once told me she remember as a toddler being picked up by her hair and bounced off walls. My earliest childhood memory is being smacked hard across the face. It snapped my neck and I could feel myself shrink smaller. I was sit on top of the toilet, watching my mother humming while applying makeup getting ready to go to a party. Then she started screaming and belted me. And then she went back to humming and smearing on her lipstick.

Hitting was pretty routine (she'd cycle into rages twice/week), so only specific abuse remains in my memory. The next one that jumps out was when I was 6 and she beat me until I peed all over myself, and then apologized to our dinner guests (extended family) that my father would be late coming downstairs because "MT is such a baby she peed all over herself and he had to clean up the mess," making me an object of derision and humiliation in front of everybody from aunt and uncle to 4 year old cousin laughing at and mocking me."

She killed our small pets. Once, an easter chick found its way into the washing machine. She laughed at its desperate peeps; the thought of it drowning or scalding to death was amusing and she laughingly repeated the story for years. We were occasionally forced to house our hamsters in the garage, where they were lost to the family cat. And so on.

Between the ages of 8 and 10, my father made repeated, inappropriate incursions into the bathroom when I was either on the toilet or in the bathtub. I was forbidden to lock the door. I have no memory or physical evidence of explicit sexual abuse, but do have a very early memory from when I was 3 or 4, which my mother insisted was "just a dream" when I asked her about it at 5, that suggests he may have molested me.

When I was 14, after both my older sisters were out of the house, I came home from school one Friday afternoon to find I'd been locked out in the street. My parents had gone away for the weekend. They did that to me half a dozen more times. My father got into a habit of leaving a ladder out in the back yard and I would climb in through the bedroom window. The last time was in a winter storm with freezing rain and sleet and I slipped and broke the window. I spent that weekend huddled in fear about how I would be punished for breaking the window.

I suffer constant existential anxiety, isolation, am estranged from my family and have struggled with suicidal thoughts throughout my life.

I think you will find many people on DU who share similar experiences. I think there is a range of bullying and the verbal may seem like nothing compared to physical assault, but it can cause significant long-term damage as well, as can the most insidious, invisible abuse of all -- simple neglect.

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Response to caseymoz (Reply #15)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 12:48 PM

60. Bully is the word we use when "asshole" isn't appropriate.

And like every other facet of human behavior, there are no black and whites. Some experience the extremes and it is harmful, most people experience something far less and move on.

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Response to MindPilot (Reply #60)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 03:51 PM

62. When cyberbullying is becoming a crime


and people might be prosecuted for it, then it better have a more substantial meaning in mind than "asshole."

Also, since asshole is a special kind of word-- that is-- an insult, by consensus, it doesn't have a real definition. only metaphorical one. It's somewhat broad, so it's versatile, and puts a disgusting picture in people's minds about somebody.

However, bully has a definition, and not a metaphorical one.

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Response to caseymoz (Reply #15)

Tue Feb 26, 2013, 10:55 PM

74. I would expand the definition a bit further than that...

...as I'm not aware of ostracizing, snarky or snide comments as everyday speech towards the target, or otherwise boorish (but non-criminal) behavior as being criminal. But it's still bullying, especially when it's consistent.

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Response to elzenmahn (Reply #74)

Tue Feb 26, 2013, 11:22 PM

76. In those cases it depends upon . . .


. . . the level and the length of it. In adulthood you could call that harassment if you can't get away from it. Snarky and snide remarks can lead to other counter-remarks, which could escalate.

But friends have a fight, they're not talking to each other, do you say that they're ostracized and call that bullying?

Just be careful about the definition. There are a lot of nuisances and aggravations people inflict on one another that you don't want to call bullying. Some are a matter of free speech.

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Response to elzenmahn (Reply #12)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 08:47 AM

32. Yep, Bullying is Not Something

you can ban or make rules against. As anyone who's ever been to school can attest, the "rules" often have very little to do with what goes on when the grown-ups aren't around. Find out WHY people bully and then attack that. Arrest the kid, send him to disciplinary school with the rest of the bullies and all you get is a better bully.

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Response to elzenmahn (Reply #12)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 11:21 AM

48. elzenmahn

elzenmahn

I do not have the answer for that - but I do think it would be a way of making sure the school will do more - far more than they do today - to fight bullying from day one at pre-school, rather than let it go, and experience some of the worst school massacres in the US history - or in many other cases - rage in the school yard when someone get enough... I had, or have a temper even today, that is not good - when I was little, I often got into problems because of a problem with the anger.... And sometimes I even got into fycial altercations because of it - and ended up hurting some of my school yard bullies... I got suspended a couple of times because of it - but I suspect they had it worse, as I really did the job properly.... Today I suspect I would have getting into real problems, specially when I hurt some of them...

The chess game of school yard bullying or bullying in school, is often more advanced the longer up in school you get - in the small grades it tend to be fycial - but later on, it often is more psychological as you point out - and it might hurt far worse being bullied psychological, than if you get a bloody nose.. At least then you can hit back if you dear.... But when you are standing there, in the classroom with 30 others, who gang up on you, and is bullying you with words, and you are not exactly the master of words, in a tight spot, you might end up in tears and more or less go to peaces there, in the room.. At least, it it my experiences about it... I guess it was a lot of "free entertaiment" for the rest of the class, when I more or less was trying not to be known in the class.. I have no clue about how many times I hide in the toilet - to get out of the worst of it... Or was hiding in the library.... The few places at school, I was not in any harm....

Diclotican

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Response to Diclotican (Reply #48)

Tue Feb 26, 2013, 11:01 PM

75. I know exactly of what you speak...

...especially in the second paragraph, as I was never particularly strong in the verbal combat arena.

The hiding places - the bathroom, the library - all sound sadly familiar to me.

Yeah, we've got the scars. But we survived.

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Response to elzenmahn (Reply #75)

Tue Feb 26, 2013, 11:52 PM

77. elzenmahn

elzenmahn

Yes - if you was not strong in the verbal combat area, high school could be a nasty place to be - and it was.. Not that grade school was better, but I would say high school with all its drama was worse than I ever experienced before or after.. At college the people at least was grown some. And I had moved to a whole other place, where I was not known to much - and could at least try to "re-invent" myself some.. And I would say, college was better than high school - I was not exactly the best pupil, but I did learned a lot, as I had some great teaches who could put me into the right direction if I was wondering about things.. And at least, I was not hiding in the bathroom, and library at college - even though I often was in the Library, who was a great place, a lot of books, and a woman who did know her business - and was rather friendly too..

yeah, we got the battle scars from high school thats for sure - and we survived - even though sometimes a dark age resurface as it did last night - somehow a bad memory going back over 20 year ago deiced to surface to the top of the memories again - and I was waking up, shaking and scared as hell - at 3 in the morning... Not god at all I would say - and it took some time to get the dream going away again... Little sad to sit there in the living room, 36 year old - at the middle of the night almost sobbing over something that happened over 20 year ago - and who you have tried to get rid of... But somehow I managed to get my composition together and get some hours in the bed before morning light... Another day in Paradise I guess...

Sometimes I wonder, if the bullies really know what they are doing harm to another human being, when they act as they do?.. And I have alway wondered - why I was picked on, true all grades - up to high school.. I have asked one I have befriended on Face book in grown age about it - and he have at least tried to give me an answer - of sorts.. But then again, he was not the worst of my "peer" in school, so I think he might not have the best answer to it..

We have just to continue our fight for decency and for making bulling a thing of the past. No easy part, as bullies are great of hiding their intentions - even can be "kind" to the victims - before they hit, hard on their target... And teachers often overlook - or do not care about many forms of bulling either.. As long as you are not beated to near death most teachers have a rather pragmatic view about bulling.. And even the ones who care, can just do so mutch...



Diclotican

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Response to Diclotican (Reply #8)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 05:57 PM

71. I was bullied also.

I've kept no ties with my high school graduating class.
My sexuality, conduct, speech, dress, thinking, body language, manner of walk, everything about me was subject to ridicule.
My peers had made their judgment, I was stupid and would never be anything else.
I was graceless and would never no one moment's favor in the eyes of God or man.
I had small ways of resisting.
I never told them the truth about anything.
I never looked them in the eyes (because I was legally blind and unwilling to rehabilitate).
To rehabilitate and to be honest with myself and others took much time. And trusting was and still is difficult.
I am still legally blind.
I am still asexual.
I live far from where I grew up.
I have no intention of ever, ever going back.
If it gets better, it does so because you can get away.

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Response to burnsei sensei (Reply #71)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 06:14 PM

72. burnsei sensei

burnsei sensei

You can get away - if you choose.. And it is for the best sometimes, if you just leave the place of evil - and go to a better place, a long way from where you grow up..

Kudos for you, who wanted, and was able to get away from where you grow up - sometimes it is the best way to deal with it all

Diclotican

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Response to Redfairen (Original post)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 09:54 PM

13. You know, I could have predicted all the findings here.


Though perhaps not the exact statistics, which are amazing.

It's good people are noticing. It's not just psychological effects, either. I had at least three concussions from bullying. One where I was eight and was beaten in the head by a thirteen-year old. Another when I was nine, and an older kid bounced my head off the blacktop at least twice. In no case were the kids who did it punished.

Therefore, in middle aged, I'm now on disability. Every day I have an episode that makes it necessary that I lie down for for at least a few hours. If not, it progresses from fatigue, weakness, insensibility, migraine, grouchiness and depression. If I try to stay up through it, I just make mistake after mistake.

I wonder if I'm going to have a mind at all a decade from now.

If we can prevent bullying, it will completely transform this country. It would be less violent, people would be less paranoid, I don't know if fewer people would be conservative, but conservatives wouldn't be the belligerent louts we see now (think Rush Limbaugh).

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Response to Redfairen (Original post)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 09:55 PM

14. Candidate for this year's "You Call This NEWS?" Award

"To Figure This Out, You Had To Do A Freaking STUDY?" category.

Where do you think bullying in ADULTHOOD comes from?


rocktivity

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Response to rocktivity (Reply #14)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 10:16 PM

16. The surprise isn't in the headline.


It's when they give statistics that there's actually a surprise, especially from kids who were both bullies and victims of bullying themselves. I mean, look at these numbers:

Bullies who were also victims were particularly troubled: they were 14.5 times more likely to develop panic disorder as adults, compared to those who did not experience bullying, and 4.8 times more likely to experience depression. Men who were both bullies and victims were 18.5 times more likely to have had suicidal thoughts in adulthood, compared to the participants who had not been bullied or perpetuators. Their female counterparts were 26.7 times more likely to have developed agoraphobia, compared to children not exposed to bullying.

Bullies who were not victims of bullying were 4.1 times more likely to have antisocial personality disorder as adults than those never exposed to bullying in their youth.


We're talking about a major source of human misery here. It's also surprising to me that this data was gathered from a study that was started decades before bullying became the issue it is now.

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Response to rocktivity (Reply #14)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 08:58 AM

35. Yup. Another Release From The Painfully Obvious Facts Bureau. (nt)

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Response to Redfairen (Original post)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 10:17 PM

18. I thought this was well known already.

But I guess this study makes it official.

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Response to Redfairen (Original post)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 11:20 PM

21. you know, back when I was in the prepubescent/early pubescent age group when bullying is probably

at its highest levels and the most extreme - I don't think anyone was taking it seriously and there was very much a culture of blaming the victims. I'm talking in my case about the mid to late 60's. I don't know if things started to change later on. I don't think teachers or even parents of victims had the slightest inclination to intervene or even be the least bit sympathetic. At least it is being talked about today. I have hope that things are somewhat better now. To adults - childhood can seem unreal like it was all just a bad dream. But to the child or adolescent facing it every day of their life - it is absolutely real and the child usually lacks the facilities to know that if they can just hold on things will eventually get better. It is amazing that more children don't commit suicide then already do. I am more surprised that more victims of childhood bullying recover as well as they do and succeed as well as they do. It is more amazing to me that far greater lifelong damage is not done.

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Response to Douglas Carpenter (Reply #21)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 08:58 AM

34. As a Elementary Kid

I was bullied by an adult. He did it for fun. Because it was an adult I didn't think there was anything wrong with it. I did tell my parents, who were in general very good parents, but it being the '60's I got the old "Ignore it" advice. It didn't really have a lasting effect on me (probably because he wasn't one of those all-important peers) except for my very strong desire to kick the walker the sick f*ck now depends on out from under him whenever I cannot avoid being in the same county with him.
I like to think that this sort of thing would be less likely to happen these days. Most modern parents, if told of the fun this guy was having scaring a 5-year-old, would have him arrested.

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Response to RobinA (Reply #34)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 12:44 PM

54. Know all about that.

But it happened to me in 8th grade. The bully was my algebra teacher and his pal the football coach. Both of them went after me right from the start, and the football coach had his boys beat me on a regular basis.

My dad kept telling me to fight back, but I could never get him to understand that it's impossible when a half dozen jocks are beating you at the same time.

Help? Nope, never got any. Time and time again the asshole administrators and other teachers told me to "suck up and take it like a man".

Left me with severe PTSD attacks. Even when I go to vote and see school bond questions or candidates for school board, they trigger the attacks. It takes me several minutes to compose myself because of the flashbacks.

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Response to Douglas Carpenter (Reply #21)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 11:50 AM

51. And you never really recover from bullying by family members

or sexual abuse. You may become more functional, but that damage at the center of your core never goes away.

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Response to nobodyspecial (Reply #51)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 12:34 PM

53. that's so true

my sister and my cousin were both overweight as kids, and were teased mercilessly about their weight by one of our uncles (by marriage). none of the adults ever said anything to him about it either. they both NEVER forgot it and they're well into their 50's. the uncle is still living , but they've never confronted him about it most likely to protect our aunt, who is well-loved.

i was bullied as a child too, but it was because i was painfully shy and withdrawn, especially as a new kid in the first year of middle school. after that first year, i made some friends and it was better. i also was bullied in the workplace by someone who left a workglove with the fingers in the shape of a "flipping the bird" on my desk one morning. i never knew exectly who did it, but had an idea...

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Response to nobodyspecial (Reply #51)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 12:45 PM

55. That is also true

Especially with family members. Which is why I haven't talked to them in years. Even when they call, I hang up on them.

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Response to nobodyspecial (Reply #51)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 07:50 AM

73. Amen to that. nt

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Response to Douglas Carpenter (Reply #21)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 12:46 PM

57. I would only say and say from experience that one does not want to over dose on stewing about the

past. Being bullied and having no one stick up for you is a terrible and traumatic thing to go through. Especially when the adult world didn't left a finger to stop it and on some occasions responded with a condescending smirk. But one cannot change that which happened decades ago. One can try to stop bullying when it happens today and try to create a world where no child ever has to go through that ever again.

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Response to Douglas Carpenter (Reply #21)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 03:32 AM

78. maybe now it will get better...

but I remember hearing "just suck it up" or "that's just part of growing up" or some other way of minimizing or dismissing it altogether. That was back when I was a kid. But even recently, when my son was in grade school, the principal told me the same when I went to her about repeated bullying of my son. She just did not want to be bothered. In fact, just before I pulled him out of that school, there was an incident that I witnessed, myself... saw with my own eyes! I told her about it and she said "do you have proof?"

The laws that are being passed now will help, but it's going to take a culture change and no more social Darwinism before things really improve.

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Response to Redfairen (Original post)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 01:08 AM

23. Fucking DUH. Science discovers water is wet.... :(

 

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Response to Redfairen (Original post)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 09:54 AM

40. Even with animals a stressful 'childhood' effects them the rest of their lives.

Animals can forgive and forget their bad times a lot more than the human animals can. Animals will never forget the triggers that remind them of the abuse.

Excellent article, thanks for posting.

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Response to Redfairen (Original post)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 11:42 AM

50. For years, I had trouble forgiving a guy who had bullied me in school.

For no apparent reason. I still don't know why I was his target.

And then one day I read via the internet that his son (roughly the same age as my daughter) died in a drowning accident.

And I ceased being angry at him. I didn't once think it was karma or divine retribution for what he had done to me--no God or supernatural force could ever be that cruel; I just felt bad for him. And I knew that whatever pain he inflicted on me by bulling me in school was nothing compared to the pain he must be going through by the loss of a young child.

And that was that. Haven't dwelled much on him ever since.

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Response to Tommy_Carcetti (Reply #50)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 12:46 PM

56. Wish I could say the same.

But I can't.

The pain never goes away.

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Response to Joe Bacon (Reply #56)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 02:06 AM

66. Neither can I

Even 35 years after the horrible treatment I recieved in a redneck school from all my classmates and even many of the teachers, I cannot empathize about any of their plights at all, if I knew of them. If I had died from the bruising I would have haunted them all as a ghost. Most of all, to the coach who organized a ball throwing game at me by the whole male classmates, I hope he rotted a nasty death. I've never returned, never looked any of them up, don't care and never will. Even those who called me freind in private then yelled "faggot" when in company of the rest, were no freinds of mine. The bruises, the lonliness, the treatment like I was something subhuman I'm still overcoming, still healing from. Only in recent years do I talk of this, like I'm doing here. I just buried it in my subconcious, found a new home, new freinds and an environment that accepted me. I ran away never to return. I dived in dumpsters for food till I found a home like a stray kitten. I worried my poor mother to death for over a year where I'd gone. I was on the back of the milk carton and just stayed hidden. My lover kept me sheltered from ever going back. Yes, he was a pedophile in the strictest sense. But he saved me from sure suicide.
And all because I told a "friend" at about age 13 that when I grew up I wanted to marry another man. At the time I didn't even know the meaning of the word "gay".

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Response to Tommy_Carcetti (Reply #50)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 08:30 AM

67. For Many Years

I didn't think ill of the adult who bullied me. I knew I didn't like what he did, but I never blamed him (you see, it was always my fault for showing that I was scared of him). It wasn't until I was in my 30's (this happened in early elementary school) that it hit me like a ton of bricks one day how sadistic and downright sick it was for an adult to purposely scare a young child. That realization felt GREAT. Since then, my only lasting effect from this is my wish for nothing but bad to befall him. Karma? Ya better believe it. Guy is essentially paralyzed from the waist down due to back trouble. Chase me down the yard, now, sucka!

Sorry if this sounds harsh. I'm normally pretty mature about things, but this is one situation where I let my reptilian brain loose to think its vengeful best. Letting it out of its cage now and then keeps it quiet the rest of the time.

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Response to Redfairen (Original post)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 05:41 PM

64. Absolutely

It's affected me all my life and i'm nearly 61.

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Response to Redfairen (Original post)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 09:33 AM

68. I left school in 9th grade, lied about my age, and passed my GED at 15, just to get away

from bullies and assholes, and that includes teachers and students.

Some people are made for the cookie cutter world of High School. They fit in the molds and constructs. Some of us don't.

Im so glad that college was nothing like high school.

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Response to Redfairen (Original post)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 11:02 AM

69. I'm sure glad this is starting to be dealt with

And not swept under the rug as a part of nature, kids will be kids attitude that previously prevailed.

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