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Mon Feb 11, 2013, 12:59 PM

Comedienne Sarah Silverman’s sister arrested at Western Wall in Jerusalem for wearing male prayer sh

Source: Independent

Comedienne Sarah Silverman’s sister arrested at Western Wall in Jerusalem for wearing male prayer shawl
Alistair Dawber
Monday 11 February 2013

The sister of comedian Sarah Silverman was arrested at Jerusalem’s Western Wall today for wearing a male prayer shawl during an attempt by women to pray at Judaism’s holiest site.

Rabbi Susan Silverman – a member of the liberal Reform movement - and her daughter Hallel, were detained by police for wearing a blue and white tallitot, a shawl reserved only for orthodox men. Rabbi Silverman belongs to ‘Women of the Wall’ – a group that visits the site each month wearing traditionally male religious garb. Yesterday as many as 300 people gathered at the Western Wall in Jerusalem’s Old City, to protest at the orthodox control of the site.

The issue of women praying at the Western Wall is fraught. Only a small section of the ancient site is reserved for women, with the rest given over to male worship. Before last month’s general election, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said that he would consider ways of making the situation more equitable, despite a 2003 Supreme Court decision that upheld the divide.

~snip~

The police confirmed that the arrests of 10 women were connected to the wearing of “male style” tallitot. The monthly prayer sessions are usually highly charged, and often there are arrests.

Read more: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/comedienne-sarah-silvermans-sister-arrested-at-western-wall-in-jerusalem-for-wearing-male-prayer-shawl-8490591.html

91 replies, 9181 views

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Reply Comedienne Sarah Silverman’s sister arrested at Western Wall in Jerusalem for wearing male prayer sh (Original post)
Judi Lynn Feb 2013 OP
CBGLuthier Feb 2013 #1
ForgoTheConsequence Feb 2013 #3
Ikonoklast Feb 2013 #46
DesertRat Feb 2013 #65
sakabatou Feb 2013 #82
R Merm Feb 2013 #18
SkyDaddy7 Feb 2013 #78
Freddie Stubbs Feb 2013 #91
louis-t Feb 2013 #2
Voice for Peace Feb 2013 #17
sakabatou Feb 2013 #83
warrant46 Feb 2013 #4
tomm2thumbs Feb 2013 #5
maxsolomon Feb 2013 #6
Brickbat Feb 2013 #7
msanthrope Feb 2013 #22
Brickbat Feb 2013 #23
Scairp Feb 2013 #40
Mosby Feb 2013 #43
GliderGuider Feb 2013 #35
snooper2 Feb 2013 #8
Purveyor Feb 2013 #13
relayerbob Feb 2013 #27
snooper2 Feb 2013 #37
RedstDem Feb 2013 #9
Wind Dancer Feb 2013 #36
meti57b Feb 2013 #74
Mosby Feb 2013 #10
SCVDem Feb 2013 #11
Xithras Feb 2013 #14
ZombieHorde Feb 2013 #62
The Straight Story Feb 2013 #81
leftynyc Feb 2013 #19
Katashi_itto Feb 2013 #49
Mosby Feb 2013 #70
Katashi_itto Feb 2013 #73
davidpdx Feb 2013 #76
Ash_F Feb 2013 #77
Mosby Feb 2013 #87
Ash_F Feb 2013 #88
Iggo Feb 2013 #12
surrealAmerican Feb 2013 #15
leftynyc Feb 2013 #21
R Merm Feb 2013 #26
leftynyc Feb 2013 #31
R Merm Feb 2013 #61
obamanut2012 Feb 2013 #68
Mosby Feb 2013 #71
klook Feb 2013 #16
groundloop Feb 2013 #20
relayerbob Feb 2013 #28
RebelOne Feb 2013 #50
madrchsod Feb 2013 #63
RoccoR5955 Feb 2013 #24
DesertRat Feb 2013 #66
davidpdx Feb 2013 #75
TwilightGardener Feb 2013 #25
libodem Feb 2013 #29
obama2terms Feb 2013 #42
libodem Feb 2013 #48
Mosby Feb 2013 #53
Xipe Totec Feb 2013 #30
Judi Lynn Feb 2013 #32
R Merm Feb 2013 #67
cactusfractal Feb 2013 #33
Cal Carpenter Feb 2013 #84
Cary Feb 2013 #34
Wind Dancer Feb 2013 #38
Cary Feb 2013 #39
msanthrope Feb 2013 #44
Cary Feb 2013 #45
msanthrope Feb 2013 #47
marybourg Feb 2013 #52
msanthrope Feb 2013 #54
marybourg Feb 2013 #55
Cary Feb 2013 #58
geek tragedy Feb 2013 #56
Cary Feb 2013 #60
geek tragedy Feb 2013 #69
Cary Feb 2013 #72
Cal Carpenter Feb 2013 #85
Cary Feb 2013 #89
obama2terms Feb 2013 #41
libodem Feb 2013 #51
Manifestor_of_Light Feb 2013 #57
Cary Feb 2013 #90
PasadenaTrudy Feb 2013 #59
ZombieHorde Feb 2013 #64
oberliner Feb 2013 #79
R Merm Feb 2013 #80
marshall Feb 2013 #86

Response to Judi Lynn (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 01:01 PM

1. I thought Israel was a democracy? I guess it is more of a demockracy.

All MEN are made equal. Women, not so much...

Disgusting old world values.

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Response to CBGLuthier (Reply #1)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 01:05 PM

3. Careful.

Israel is a secular, liberal, progressive paradise. To say different any different could get you in trouble.

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Response to ForgoTheConsequence (Reply #3)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 04:50 PM

46. A friend of the family is a Reformed Rabbi that moved to Jerusalem from New York .

He had a small congregation that met close to one of the Orthodox enclaves, mostly ex-pats like himself.

He would routinely find human feces smeared on the door handles of his synogogue because they didn't recognize him as either a rabbi or even a 'real' Jew.

He left after three years.

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Response to Ikonoklast (Reply #46)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 06:46 PM

65. That's just awful nt

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Response to DesertRat (Reply #65)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 02:14 PM

82. +1

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Response to CBGLuthier (Reply #1)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 02:20 PM

18. It's their parliamentary system that is causing the problem.

In order to form a government too much power is given to the ultra Orthodox parties.

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Response to R Merm (Reply #18)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 06:26 AM

78. That, and it is a religious state...

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Response to CBGLuthier (Reply #1)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 01:06 PM

91. Only if the voters elect representatives who want equality

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Response to Judi Lynn (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 01:02 PM

2. "YOU CAN"T PRAY AT MY SECTION OF THE WALL!!"

It makes my head hurt.

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Response to louis-t (Reply #2)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 01:40 PM

17. god's rules, ya know

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Response to louis-t (Reply #2)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 02:15 PM

83. The Orthodox/Ultra-Orthodox rules are backward.

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Response to Judi Lynn (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 01:06 PM

4. Well. what do you know?

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Response to Judi Lynn (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 01:08 PM

5. Arrest them !!! for praying in OUR spot !!!


Sounds like they are proving the adolescent nature of their religious views


(no insult intended towards adolescents...)



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Response to Judi Lynn (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 01:14 PM

6. Why must you women vex us men so?

Do you not understand that we are special to God, who is, after all, also a man?

No Girls Allowed!

of a post-monotheist, obviously.

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Response to Judi Lynn (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 01:14 PM

7. I'm guessing that God really doesn't give a shit.

I could be wrong.

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Response to Brickbat (Reply #7)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 02:32 PM

22. I'm guessing there is no god to give a shit. nt

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Response to msanthrope (Reply #22)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 02:33 PM

23. Exactly.

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Response to msanthrope (Reply #22)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 03:39 PM

40. Thank you

For stating the blatantly obvious. This stupid wall isn't holy, it isn't sacred, it's just a bunch of really old bricks. And this is just another way to try and keep women second class citizens by calling this a "holy" sight and restricting woman, who ought to be smarter than the men and know this is all bullshit. It's the same principle as when you could often find public bars or clubs for men only earlier in the 20th century. Augusta only just admitted women to that club last year. Shameful. Remember when the Oak Room Bar was for men only? Well, neither do I but I heard about it. Israel thinks it can be both a country about one particular religion governed in a secular way and that just doesn't work.

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Response to Scairp (Reply #40)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 03:58 PM

43. do you feel that way about every country with a state religion or just Israel?

Some secular countries with a state religion (not a complete list):

Israel
England
Ireland
India
Denmark
Iceland
Finland
Argentina
El Salvador
Cyprus
Costa Rica
Greece
Norway
Monico
Malta
Peru
Honduras


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Response to Brickbat (Reply #7)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 03:20 PM

35. Oh, I most certainly do!

This is an issue that is very dear to My heart!

Well, this and your sex life of course.
...I saw that...

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Response to Judi Lynn (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 01:18 PM

8. I can't wait until alien life visits us..

After a bit we'll take them around getting a tour of the planet and they see the "wall" with humans standing there mumbling, kissing it, LOL..


Alien- "those your people? WTF are they doing " "Is that a magic wall or something?"

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Response to snooper2 (Reply #8)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 01:23 PM

13. {{{chuckle}}} eom

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Response to snooper2 (Reply #8)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 02:53 PM

27. What makes you think

they haven't already been here and decided we were too primitive to speak to. Figure if we survive oursleves, maybe they'll come by again in another 100 years or so.

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Response to relayerbob (Reply #27)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 03:24 PM

37. Pretty long trip to make from anywhere..

To just turn around and go back LOL

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Response to Judi Lynn (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 01:18 PM

9. backwards religion

every religion can pretty much share this one thing, sexism........

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Response to RedstDem (Reply #9)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 03:23 PM

36. It sure does seem that way! n/t

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Response to RedstDem (Reply #9)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 10:57 PM

74. Maybe some members of a religion but not necessrily all .....

At our synagogue, women routinely chant the torah (from the torah scroll) to the congregation while wearing talisim with the four fringes.

What you are describing as "sexism" is realistically the Orthodox.

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Response to Judi Lynn (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 01:18 PM

10. There is progress, the Independent did not really report the story

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Response to Judi Lynn (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 01:19 PM

11. This is different from the Taliban, how?

Who gave the ultra-orthodox the keys to the kingdom?

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Response to SCVDem (Reply #11)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 01:29 PM

14. Well, they didn't beat or shoot them.

Same ideology, enforced with a slightly gentler hand

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Response to Xithras (Reply #14)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 06:17 PM

62. Good point. nt

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Response to Xithras (Reply #14)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 02:02 PM

81. Unless your name is Rachel Corrie, then they just run you over with a bulldozer (nt)

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Response to SCVDem (Reply #11)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 02:29 PM

19. Seriously?

This is the same thing as throwing acid in the face of girls who want to get educated? Same thing as women being forced to stay in their homes unless a male relative is with them? Forced into a marriage at age 14? Can you really say that with a straight fucking face and expect to be taken seriously?

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #19)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 04:58 PM

49. Someone's never seen Palestine...

It's just another example of man's basic inhumanity to his fellow man. No one country, culture or religon has got a lock on it. Humanity is good at being foul to one another.

Visit sunny Palestine where even the food is rationed (1500 calories a day -if they are lucky! Yum!) for it's prisoners..I mean happy populace.

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Response to Katashi_itto (Reply #49)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 08:19 PM

70. what the hell?

Last edited Mon Feb 11, 2013, 10:38 PM - Edit history (1)

Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza eat whatever they want.

Food exports from Gaza and the West Bank are at an all time high.

What's your agenda katashi?

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Response to Mosby (Reply #70)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 08:47 PM

73. whats yours? Anyone who spouts "agenda" has an agenda

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Response to Katashi_itto (Reply #73)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 05:54 AM

76. Forgetting is easy even if history repeats itself

I don't think "denial" is in Egypt anymore

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Response to Mosby (Reply #70)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 06:00 AM

77. You don't know what you are talking about

"Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza eat whatever they want."

^Get educated.

Part of being a progressive and a Democrat is combating right wing nuttery wherever it rears its head. Good on Rabbi Silverman.

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Response to Ash_F (Reply #77)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 04:39 PM

87. lol, you need to update your talking points

See the angle now is that Israel is forcing the Gazans to buy Israeli goods.

http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2013/02/israeli-goods-flood-gaza.html

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Response to Mosby (Reply #87)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 09:40 PM

88. I'm not going to waste my time on you

But don't spout denialist right wing lies regarding human rights on a Democratic board and expect not to get called out on it every single time.

cheers

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Response to Judi Lynn (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 01:23 PM

12. Perfectly sensible practice deserving of our respect.

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Response to Judi Lynn (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 01:31 PM

15. Wait, you have to orthodox to wear a blue and white tallis?

That can't be right. Reform Jews wear these too.

... or is that only at the Wall? ... and if so who made that rule, and when?

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Response to surrealAmerican (Reply #15)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 02:30 PM

21. No - the tallot is reserved for men

The Independent is doing their regular bang up job of screwing up a simple story. And it's not a small section that is reserved for women - it's 1/2 and 1/2. People should line their kitty litter with that paper.

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #21)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 02:42 PM

26. It is a smaller section.

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Response to R Merm (Reply #26)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 03:08 PM

31. Is that a recent picture?

I was there myself around 15 years ago and it looked NOTHING like that. Not only that, a bunch of us went over to the mens side and prayed over there. Nobody bothered us and, yes, I'm a woman.

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #31)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 06:16 PM

61. I was there this past summer, and that is how it looked then.

Over the years the orthodox have gone more to the right. There is no way today that you would have been able to go over to the mens side. This story is part of an ongoing push by the woman of the wall. They do this once a month and have had issues before. It was great to see the vets from the 67 war prevent their arrest while they were praying, hopefully this will force some changes.

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #31)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 07:14 PM

68. It is less than half, and I have a friend who was attacked at the Wall

She was grabbed and shoved and called horrible names, as was her brother who was with her. Because she was female. Doing this to people PRAYING. To a woman so excited to finally visit Israel.

All religious Fundamentalists sicken me.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #68)


Response to Judi Lynn (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 01:40 PM

16. She should have paid a visit to the beard seller!


Still from Life of Brian, Monty Python (1975)

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Response to Judi Lynn (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 02:29 PM

20. This reminds me so much of seeing blacks only restrooms and whites only restrooms as a kid


Raise your hand if you remember the days of segregated bathrooms...... I was only like 5 or 6 but I still remember that I didn't understand why white people and black people had to use different restrooms in a public place. Well, I'm a little bit older now and, like then, I don't understand why women and men can't pray in the same place.

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Response to groundloop (Reply #20)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 02:53 PM

28. Yep

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Response to groundloop (Reply #20)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 05:03 PM

50. I remember segregation well. I grew up in the South in the '50s.

Separate restrooms and drinking fountains for blacks and whites, and blacks having to sit in the back of the bus.

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Response to groundloop (Reply #20)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 06:22 PM

63. i remember seeing signs when i went through the south in the late 50`s

i was 11 when we went through the south down to new orleans. beautiful scenery marred by the signs of segregation and all black shacks just down the road from the all white towns. up here in the north whites let them live in the towns but only in certain areas. the one in my town was named "chocalot square"

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Response to Judi Lynn (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 02:35 PM

24. I'm surprised that this post hasn't been "censored."

For being "anti-Semitic."

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Response to RoccoR5955 (Reply #24)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 06:50 PM

66. There's still time

maybe everyone's too busy trashing the Pope to notice.

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Response to DesertRat (Reply #66)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 05:50 AM

75. I'm sure it's been "reported"

several times by those who disagree. The irony of the topic is kind of funny when you see people screaming and threatening people for posting things.

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Response to Judi Lynn (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 02:39 PM

25. I guess the world would go all topsy turvy for them if women prayed at "their" spot.

Damn wimmens, always ruining everything with their wimmin-ness.

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Response to Judi Lynn (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 02:56 PM

29. Tell me that isn't a Theocracy

Isn't one of the familiar prayers, one that the men say, thanking God, for not making them a woman? Suppose that little benefit gives them the patriarchal leg up, so to speak.

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Response to libodem (Reply #29)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 03:53 PM

42. There is

One of the many reasons why I am so turned off by former religion.

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Response to obama2terms (Reply #42)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 04:58 PM

48. I watched a Saturday's morning

Worth of, Public Broadcasting Station, stories of both Palestinians and Ultra Orthodox, gay Jews.

I came away more informed. God I love PBS. And I have cultural respect for the history and traditions of Judaism.
I hope I make that clear, despite my personal rejection of many religious doctrines.

I didn't know that the tradition of having meat animals slain in a ritual of religious rights and blessings, were similar to both people. I

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Response to libodem (Reply #29)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 05:33 PM

53. No, it's not a familiar prayer and only the Orthodox use the traditional version

The other 90% of worldwide Jewry have modified the Birchot Hashachar prayer to make it inclusive and egalitarian.



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Response to Judi Lynn (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 03:02 PM

30. Are there any women here today?

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Response to Judi Lynn (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 03:16 PM

32. Guardian:Sarah Silverman's sister among 10 detained in Jerusalem

Sarah Silverman's sister among 10 detained in Jerusalem

Women stopped at the Western Wall because they were wearing garb reserved for men only, according to reports

Associated Press
The Guardian, Monday 11 February 2013 14.41 EST

Israeli police detained 10 women, including the sister of the American comic Sarah Silverman, as they tried to pray at a Jerusalem holy site, the head of a liberal Jewish women's group said.

Anat Hoffman, who was among those detained, said the women were stopped because they were wearing religious garb that Orthodox Judaism reserves for men only. The incident occurred at the Western Wall, one of Judaism's holiest sites.

Silverman's sister Susan, a Jerusalem rabbi from the liberal Reform stream of Judaism, was detained along with her teenage daughter.

Sarah Silverman wrote on her Facebook page that she was "SO proud" of her sister and niece for their "civil disobedience". The original post included more explicit language typical of Silverman's humour.

More:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/feb/11/sarah-silverman-sister-jerusalem-western-wall

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Response to Judi Lynn (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 03:16 PM

33. Meanwhile: COMEDIAN

Ironic that a story on gender equality labels the sister of a protester for same with a gender-diminutive title. Comedienne is no better than stewardess and only a hair better than "lady doctor".

Well, at least they didn't call her a Jewess, too.

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Response to cactusfractal (Reply #33)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 02:37 PM

84. +1000

Hadn't even noticed. Thanks for pointing this out.

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Response to Judi Lynn (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 03:20 PM

34. Israel is not a 51st State.

It is a different country with different traditions and different realities. In this instance it has to deal with a part of its population that is fundamentalist and quite militant.

I would side with Rabbi Silverman, being a Reform Jew myself. However I would suggest that those who are getting bent out of shape are really interjecting themselves into a debate that they don't fully understand or appreciate.

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Response to Cary (Reply #34)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 03:30 PM

38. It's not THAT hard to understand!

This is a perfect example of men treating women as inferiors. It's universal in the monolithic religions.

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Response to Wind Dancer (Reply #38)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 03:34 PM

39. Yes, Orthodox Judaism is sexist.

Are you going sit here and tell me that you understand the relationship between Orthodox Jews and Reform Jews in Israel? If so, I have a hard time believing that to be true.

They need to work it out and they don't really need outsiders.

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Response to Cary (Reply #39)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 04:16 PM

44. "Outsiders" like women on this board noting sexism? Well, let me tell you something, Cary---

The Abramahic religions of this world can go and have all the internecine fighting they please, but when it comes to an issue of sexism, whether it be FGM, Sharia, or this current crop o'bullshit from my husband's people, they don't get to "work it out" without the spotlight on them.

And when religious leaders use the civil authorities to enforce their beliefs, you'd better believe I'm not going to let them "work it out." You know why? Because historically, when we women let the men "work it out" we are the ones who get the shaft.

I don't have to know the relationship between two sects to know that using the civil authorities to enforce your religious prerogatives to the detriment of women is wrong.

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Response to msanthrope (Reply #44)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 04:26 PM

45. That's nice Msanthrope

And feel free to lash out at me as much as you want. I'm a citizen of the U.S.A. and unless you're a citizen with rights to vote in Israel your righteous indignation directed at me will do you as good as directing it at anyone or anything else.

Whether you like it or not it is a matter for Israelis to work out and your declaration that you're free from obligation to understand the real meaning of the conflict is unconvincing. The Orthodox Jews in Israel murdered Yitzhak Rabin. They actually throw stones at people who violate their fundamentalist vision of the Sabbath. The issue here isn't just a matter of sexism. It is fundamentalism versus secularism and that debate is probably meaningless to you. To them, it's something different.

Israel is a secular state. I don't know this but I'm pretty sure that the rules at the Wailing Wall are some kind of compromise with the Orthodox Jews in Israel. You don't know that either but you're very ready to get yourself all riled up about it.

It's their country. Not yours.

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Response to Cary (Reply #45)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 04:50 PM

47. Israel doesn't sound like a very secular state to me if they have to make compromises, as you claim,

with the sect that murdered Yitzhak Rabin (according to you.)

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Response to msanthrope (Reply #47)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 05:28 PM

52. It IS a secular state. It was founded by

eastern European socialists and modeled on the socialist ideals of cooperative farms (kibbutzim) and equality (women in the army). Of course reality does not always live up to the ideal. Trouble started when orthodox Jews, many actually from th U.S., started immigrating to Israel and demanding the perks that their supposed exalted status as "more holy than thou" demanded. Couple that with the parliamentary need to form alliances, as another poster has noted, and you get a system where much of the moral authority is ceded to those who claim it as their "birthright", a very fraught concept in Israel.

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Response to marybourg (Reply #52)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 05:45 PM

54. Indeed. A friend of mine described to me her problems with trying to get married in Israel.

She eventually went to Cyprus. What she described to me did not sound like a secular state.


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Response to msanthrope (Reply #54)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 05:49 PM

55. As I said, the moral authority has been ceded to those who claim it as their right.

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Response to msanthrope (Reply #47)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 06:04 PM

58. You're entitled to your opinion.

It would be a much a better opinion, though, if it were based on some objective analysis.

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Response to Cary (Reply #34)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 05:50 PM

56. Violations of women's rights are a universal concern.

Here, the state of Israel has decided to violate the human rights of women because it has delegated its authority on such matters to a backwards sect/cult.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #56)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 06:10 PM

60. Of course you wouldn't be pre-disposed towards this conclusion?

You have weighed all of the facts and circumstances and you're a fair, unbiased observer.

Right. How you doing on selling those bridges?

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Response to Cary (Reply #60)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 07:32 PM

69. What part do you dispute? nt

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #69)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 08:35 PM

72. My sarcasm was specific.

I think you could read a lot into it.

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Response to Cary (Reply #34)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 02:46 PM

85. Oh please

Israel needs to deal with the HALF OF ITS POPULATION THAT IS NOT MALE.

Human rights are human rights. If a nation chooses to be a religious nation, and that religion (or some faction thereof) tramples on human rights based on gender, then it sure as fuck better expect criticism and ANYONE who believes in human rights and gender equality should look at this critically.

Your relativism (re: "tradition" etc) is anti-human rights. It is anti-gender-equality. Different realities? What? A reality where it is not okay to criticize state-sanctioned sexism? Where human rights have some other meaning?

If those fighting for human rights around the world backed down everytime someone asked them to be forgiving of those who are sexist/racist based on 'tradition' where would we be now?

Fuck that shit. Fuck apologizing for a state that is condoning sexism.

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Response to Cal Carpenter (Reply #85)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 07:49 AM

89. You don't know me and it's pretty clear to me you don't know much about Israel.

I am not "anti-human rights" and you have a lot of nerve making that ad hominem.

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Response to Judi Lynn (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 03:52 PM

41. Oh orthodox Judaism

I am personally an atheist as well as my mom but the rest of my family are reform jews. They go to an orthodox synagogue because it's closer to our house and to be honest this doesn't surprise me. Orthodox Judaism is very repressive towards women, they have to cover their heads, wear long skirts, sit separate from men during services, not even touch a boy until marriage etc. It's shameful to me even if it's just a part of Judaism, it turned me off enough to make me just have no religion at all.

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Response to obama2terms (Reply #41)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 05:04 PM

51. Thank you for sharing your insights

My mission is to be well informed. And I'm so glad you are open to discussion. I like hearing personal, points of view. Thank you. I've been starved for understanding.

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Response to Judi Lynn (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 06:03 PM

57. So they would probably beat all Reform and Conservative Jews?

Not Cool Story Bro: I once attended a Classical Reform temple.

I didn't know there was such a thing as "Classical Reform".
No beanies, no prayer shawls, nearly all the service was in English. It was founded by German Jews in the 1800s with the idea that those items were mere trappings and not part of the spirituality.

The rabbi was cool. He wanted us (husbo & I) to convert. We wanted to convert, but the rich people on the board didn't want us b/c we were unemployed at the time. They also said "We've never had a COUPLE that wants to convert." Like they couldn't wrap their minds around that concept.

We offered to donate 40 hours of our time working in lieu of annual dues, and we have three college degrees EACH, but that wasn't good enough. We met at a Unitarian Church.

We didn't want to join a shul where the board didn't want us. I've been to snotty churches and synagogues before. So we're still Unitarians, and live far away from any UU churches.

I have people in my face constantly telling me how Gawd answers prayers, etc. etc., ya gotta have faith, studying the flaws in the Bible is bad(I did that at a liberal Christian college where 6 hours of religion were required to graduate) and how global warming is wrong because "God's takin' care of our world."

I've even been told I'm going to hell for "worshiping Buddha". I set the hick straight about "worshiping Buddha" b/c he had recto-cranial conjunction.





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Response to Manifestor_of_Light (Reply #57)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 01:03 PM

90. I could give you a worse story...

The pillar of the Reform synagogue that my family attended when I was a child turned out to be a corrupt judge. And too the place was incredibly cliquish.

It's unfortunate that these organizations have to cater to the money people. If that's the kind of synagogue you were contemplating, consider yourself lucky.

Was it Emerson who said that all organizations are corrupt because the organization itself takes on a fictional importance beyond the individuals? I find that to be generally true.

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Response to Judi Lynn (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 06:04 PM

59. This is why I hate religion

Utter nonsense. #atheist

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Response to Judi Lynn (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 06:25 PM

64. Sad. I hate to see people arrested for victimless crimes. nt

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Response to Judi Lynn (Original post)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 06:35 AM

79. She was released after a few hours

And numerous Israeli men and women stood in solidarity with her and her compatriots.

Hopefully this arrest will raise the profile of the Women of the Wall group. Kudos to them for their efforts.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #79)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 08:51 AM

80. This is a once a month prayer group.

Count on next months group to be much larger. This happened in 2012 also and the following month there was a lager group of Woman.

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Response to Judi Lynn (Original post)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 02:53 PM

86. Cross dressing is frowned on in that part of the world

Though I do recall that Michael Jackson was able to wear a burka in Bahrain and was not arrested.

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