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Mon Feb 11, 2013, 06:01 AM

Pope to step down 28 February per Italian news and BBC

Source: BBC

No link yet; multiple Italian sources reporting Benedict has announced his pending abdication.

Link (in Italian): http://www.corriere.it/cronache/13_febbraio_11/papa-lascia-pontificato_d6c03642-7438-11e2-b945-c75ed2830f7b.shtml

Text says: The Pope leaves the papacy from February 28. The announcement was made personally, in Latin, during the consistory for the canonization of the martyrs of Otranto.




Read more: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-21411304



And an update, text of the announcement on the Vatican site:

Dear Brothers,
I have convoked you to this Consistory, not only for the three canonizations, but also to communicate to you a decision of great importance for the life of the Church. After having repeatedly examined my conscience before God, I have come to the certainty that my strengths, due to an advanced age, are no longer suited to an adequate exercise of the Petrine ministry. I am well aware that this ministry, due to its essential spiritual nature, must be carried out not only with words and deeds, but no less with prayer and suffering. However, in today’s world, subject to so many rapid changes and shaken by questions of deep relevance for the life of faith, in order to govern the bark of Saint Peter and proclaim the Gospel, both strength of mind and body are necessary, strength which in the last few months, has deteriorated in me to the extent that I have had to recognize my incapacity to adequately fulfill the ministry entrusted to me. For this reason, and well aware of the seriousness of this act, with full freedom I declare that I renounce the ministry of Bishop of Rome, Successor of Saint Peter, entrusted to me by the Cardinals on 19 April 2005, in such a way, that as from 28 February 2013, at 20:00 hours, the See of Rome, the See of Saint Peter, will be vacant and a Conclave to elect the new Supreme Pontiff will have to be convoked by those whose competence it is.

http://en.radiovaticana.va/articolo.asp?c=663815

177 replies, 20318 views

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Arrow 177 replies Author Time Post
Reply Pope to step down 28 February per Italian news and BBC (Original post)
Spider Jerusalem Feb 2013 OP
muriel_volestrangler Feb 2013 #1
Scairp Feb 2013 #118
mpcamb Feb 2013 #140
Scairp Feb 2013 #145
BumRushDaShow Feb 2013 #2
FreeState Feb 2013 #3
FreeState Feb 2013 #11
Posteritatis Feb 2013 #18
SkyDaddy7 Feb 2013 #23
Posteritatis Feb 2013 #141
muriel_volestrangler Feb 2013 #26
DesertRat Feb 2013 #103
HooptieWagon Feb 2013 #115
DesertRat Feb 2013 #137
HooptieWagon Feb 2013 #138
Rhiannon12866 Feb 2013 #4
Rhiannon12866 Feb 2013 #13
melm00se Feb 2013 #35
starroute Feb 2013 #82
Rhiannon12866 Feb 2013 #163
Fire Walk With Me Feb 2013 #5
Fortinbras Armstrong Feb 2013 #38
ChairmanAgnostic Feb 2013 #59
loudsue Feb 2013 #99
Zorra Feb 2013 #133
awoke_in_2003 Feb 2013 #114
Retrograde Feb 2013 #116
Posteritatis Feb 2013 #142
AngryOldDem Feb 2013 #154
Ken Burch Feb 2013 #6
LeftInTX Feb 2013 #113
6000eliot Feb 2013 #7
Berlum Feb 2013 #15
City Lights Feb 2013 #69
skepticscott Feb 2013 #8
hlthe2b Feb 2013 #9
darkangel218 Feb 2013 #10
hlthe2b Feb 2013 #14
Richard_uk Feb 2013 #36
Fortinbras Armstrong Feb 2013 #39
Richard_uk Feb 2013 #46
Fortinbras Armstrong Feb 2013 #57
Richard_uk Feb 2013 #68
Stonepounder Feb 2013 #108
snooper2 Feb 2013 #81
demwing Feb 2013 #65
Richard_uk Feb 2013 #74
ForgoTheConsequence Feb 2013 #85
demwing Feb 2013 #97
uppityperson Feb 2013 #151
Hassin Bin Sober Feb 2013 #79
demwing Feb 2013 #98
Drunken Irishman Feb 2013 #102
NBachers Feb 2013 #177
corneliamcgillicutty Feb 2013 #134
hlthe2b Feb 2013 #42
Richard_uk Feb 2013 #52
lunasun Feb 2013 #80
hlthe2b Feb 2013 #87
TruthBeTold65 Feb 2013 #47
Beacool Feb 2013 #72
Richard_uk Feb 2013 #77
PasadenaTrudy Feb 2013 #93
John1956PA Feb 2013 #19
Brickbat Feb 2013 #66
John1956PA Feb 2013 #125
LiberalFighter Feb 2013 #76
Posteritatis Feb 2013 #20
darkangel218 Feb 2013 #158
Bucky Feb 2013 #33
AngryOldDem Feb 2013 #156
Posteritatis Feb 2013 #12
longship Feb 2013 #16
struggle4progress Feb 2013 #17
fasttense Feb 2013 #21
Auggie Feb 2013 #89
fasttense Feb 2013 #172
Zoeisright Feb 2013 #124
totodeinhere Feb 2013 #129
Posteritatis Feb 2013 #143
MrMickeysMom Feb 2013 #162
msanthrope Feb 2013 #22
freshwest Feb 2013 #105
Ichingcarpenter Feb 2013 #24
Richard_uk Feb 2013 #40
Lucky Luciano Feb 2013 #54
PasadenaTrudy Feb 2013 #96
Kath1 Feb 2013 #25
life long demo Feb 2013 #29
Kath1 Feb 2013 #61
Ichingcarpenter Feb 2013 #27
Lucky Luciano Feb 2013 #28
Odin2005 Feb 2013 #45
PADemD Feb 2013 #48
hunter Feb 2013 #90
Peace Patriot Feb 2013 #107
LongTomH Feb 2013 #132
Peace Patriot Feb 2013 #175
Ichingcarpenter Feb 2013 #30
Richard_uk Feb 2013 #31
Peace Patriot Feb 2013 #111
Bucky Feb 2013 #32
OnlinePoker Feb 2013 #34
valerief Feb 2013 #37
PasadenaTrudy Feb 2013 #94
PADemD Feb 2013 #41
ButterflyBlood Feb 2013 #58
Odin2005 Feb 2013 #43
Ichingcarpenter Feb 2013 #49
onehandle Feb 2013 #44
Peace Patriot Feb 2013 #112
Posteritatis Feb 2013 #144
Peace Patriot Feb 2013 #169
840high Feb 2013 #161
TorchTheWitch Feb 2013 #174
Sunlei Feb 2013 #50
ButterflyBlood Feb 2013 #51
Iggo Feb 2013 #53
Beacool Feb 2013 #73
starroute Feb 2013 #84
Historic NY Feb 2013 #55
truebluegreen Feb 2013 #56
dipsydoodle Feb 2013 #60
TheCowsCameHome Feb 2013 #62
dipsydoodle Feb 2013 #64
mfcorey1 Feb 2013 #63
Yavin4 Feb 2013 #67
happyslug Feb 2013 #70
Beacool Feb 2013 #71
LeftInTX Feb 2013 #122
Beacool Feb 2013 #131
Posteritatis Feb 2013 #149
Beacool Feb 2013 #157
ucrdem Feb 2013 #165
LiberalFighter Feb 2013 #75
dipsydoodle Feb 2013 #78
Courtesy Flush Feb 2013 #83
CANDO Feb 2013 #86
Franker65 Feb 2013 #88
msanthrope Feb 2013 #92
Dawson Leery Feb 2013 #91
loudsue Feb 2013 #95
Third Doctor Feb 2013 #100
Ian Iam Feb 2013 #101
NYC Liberal Feb 2013 #104
Hard Assets Feb 2013 #106
lovuian Feb 2013 #109
patrice Feb 2013 #110
Peace Patriot Feb 2013 #119
patrice Feb 2013 #121
patrice Feb 2013 #123
tawadi Feb 2013 #120
Posteritatis Feb 2013 #146
24601 Feb 2013 #117
fast_eddie_72 Feb 2013 #126
hrmjustin Feb 2013 #128
Permanut Feb 2013 #127
redwitch Feb 2013 #130
Permanut Feb 2013 #170
tomm2thumbs Feb 2013 #135
Paper Roses Feb 2013 #136
rateyes Feb 2013 #139
AndyTiedye Feb 2013 #147
Bosonic Feb 2013 #148
dipsydoodle Feb 2013 #150
REP Feb 2013 #152
AngryOldDem Feb 2013 #153
darkangel218 Feb 2013 #155
NYtoBush-Drop Dead Feb 2013 #159
happynewyear Feb 2013 #160
goclark Feb 2013 #166
happynewyear Feb 2013 #168
triplepoint Feb 2013 #164
goclark Feb 2013 #173
BlueMTexpat Feb 2013 #167
PMcDee Feb 2013 #171
kestrel91316 Feb 2013 #176


Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #1)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 01:26 PM

118. OMG

I don't believe but has there ever been anything like an ex-pope who was living while another one took over. A thousand years, and except for maybe the dueling pope days back in the 14th, 15th, 16th century times, or a pope who was forcibly removed, this does not happen. I think the weight of his role in the cover-up of thousands of child sex abuse cases and the priests he assisted in staying out of trouble has done so much damage to his papacy and him personally that he cannot take it anymore. His age my ass. John Paul II could not walk, could barely sit upright to say Easter or Christmas mass and he didn't resign so this is bullshit about his age. It's his guilt that weighs heavy on him. Maybe they will finally get a progressive pope who doesn't ban condoms in Africa so that the AIDS epidemic there doesn't get any worse, and paedophile priests will go to jail, that victims will get some measure of justice by having the abuse acknowledged as having been rampant. No more "treatment centers" but jail for these deviant fuckers.

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Response to Scairp (Reply #118)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 05:22 PM

140. Wants to spend more quality time with his family...

Isn't that supposed to be in there somewhere?

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Response to mpcamb (Reply #140)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 05:30 PM

145. Lol

Good one.

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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 06:09 AM

2. Joe Madison talking about it now on SiriusXM

Well - we know what the rest of the week is going to be discussing other than the SOTU tomorrow.

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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 06:10 AM

3. Good n/t

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Response to FreeState (Reply #3)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 06:21 AM

11. Is this so he can have a say in his successor?

(Not being Catholic I have no idea, just thinking of motives).

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Response to FreeState (Reply #11)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 06:30 AM

18. He wouldn't be able to have a say

The conclave selects the next one by secret ballot and there's no 'candidates' per se until they see the results of the first round of voting. They usually go for a few days, narrowing the list as they go, until someone gets a two-thirds majority.

If Benedict actually retires from official church life entirely he wouldn't be allowed to be in the room as this was going on; if he took back his rank of cardinal he'd be on an equal footing with the 120 or so other electors.

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Response to Posteritatis (Reply #18)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 06:57 AM

23. That is not exactly true...

BenaDick has friends who know who he wants as the next Pope...Not saying it will be that guy but the plan has already been worked out or he would not be stepping down...We will know when the white smoke appears.

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Response to SkyDaddy7 (Reply #23)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 05:23 PM

141. Handwavey opinion doesn't make something untrue. (nt)

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Response to Posteritatis (Reply #18)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 07:03 AM

26. Since he's over 80, he wouldn't get a vote himself anyway, as a cardinal (nt)

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Response to FreeState (Reply #11)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 11:55 AM

103. Regarding motives...

I think it's very clear how weak and ill he is.

“In today’s world,” the pope said, “subject to so many rapid changes and shaken by questions of deep relevance for the life of faith, in order to govern the bark of St. Peter and proclaim the gospel, both strength of mind and body are necessary, strength which in the last few months has deteriorated in me to the extent that I have had to recognize my incapacity to adequately fulfill the ministry entrusted to me.”

“For this reason,” he continued, “and well aware of the seriousness of this act, with full freedom, I declare that I renounce the ministry of bishop of Rome, successor of St. Peter.”

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Response to DesertRat (Reply #103)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 01:00 PM

115. What weak, aged, ill pope hasn't stuck it out to the end?

I don't think this is about health issues, I think this is about some sex abuse scandal news about to come down on the church. He doesn't want to deal with it, just dump it in next pope's lap.

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Response to HooptieWagon (Reply #115)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 04:50 PM

137. you're entitled to your opinion

I just don't agree. When the last pope was ill, he wouldn't resign and everyone was on a death watch for at least a month. I think that Pope Benedict doesn't want to do that.

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Response to DesertRat (Reply #137)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 04:59 PM

138. Pope is for life.

When was the last one to resign? How many since then were ill before dying? Almost every one. This isn't about health, it's about some serious shit coming down, and he doesn't want to face the music.

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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 06:11 AM

4. Just heard this on my local NBC affiliate morning news!

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Response to Rhiannon12866 (Reply #4)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 06:22 AM

13. NBC Special Report with Matt Lauer just broke in

Last edited Tue Feb 12, 2013, 01:09 AM - Edit history (1)

He said the pope's resigning because of poor health on February 28th, first time since 1415 that a pope has resigned!

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Response to Rhiannon12866 (Reply #13)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 07:46 AM

35. actually the last Pope to resign was

in 1415. Gregory XII

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Response to melm00se (Reply #35)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 10:12 AM

82. But that was to resolve the Great Western Schism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Schism

The Western Schism or Papal Schism was a split within the Catholic Church from 1378 to 1417. Two men simultaneously claimed to be the true pope. Driven by politics rather than any theological disagreement, the schism was ended by the Council of Constance (1414–1418). . . .

Finally, the Council of Constance in 1414, advised by the theologian Jean Gerson, secured the resignations of antipope John XXIII and the successor in Rome of Innocent VII, Pope Gregory XII (who resigned in 1415, but not before formally empowering the Council of Constance to elect the new pope, thus ensuring the legitimacy of the election), and excommunicated the claimant who refused to step down, Avignon Pope Benedict XIII. The Council then elected Pope Martin V, essentially ending the schism. Nonetheless, the Kingdom of Aragon did not recognize Martin V and continued to recognize Benedict XIII. Archbishops loyal to Benedict XIII subsequently elected Antipope Benedict XIV (Bernard Garnier) and three followers simultaneously elected Antipope Clement VIII, but the Western Schism was by then practically over. (Clement VIII resigned in 1429 and apparently recognized Martin V.)

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Response to melm00se (Reply #35)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 01:08 AM

163. You're right! Thanks!

Every report kept changing the year and I meant to edit my post after they finally determined which was accurate. Not surprised that they couldn't remember that far back...

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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 06:12 AM

5. No more Hitler Youth leading the world's Catholics? n/t

 

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Response to Fire Walk With Me (Reply #5)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 07:54 AM

38. I really wish people would stop trying to portray Pope Benedict as a Nazi

He joined the Hitler Youth only because the Nazis could and would throw parents into prison if their sons were not in the Hitler Youth.

I am no fan whatsoever of Benedict. I literally wept when I heard he was elected Pope. But I do not hold with painting him unfairly.

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Response to Fortinbras Armstrong (Reply #38)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 08:46 AM

59. Agreed. A much better description would

Include the years he covered up sex crimes, ordered witnesses to lie under oath, ordered documents destroyed, and worse.

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Response to ChairmanAgnostic (Reply #59)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 11:47 AM

99. That is one of my beefs with this pope. He's like .... he's a mess in every way.

The bush years saw a lot of political tragedies like this one. Opus Dei.

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Response to ChairmanAgnostic (Reply #59)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 03:02 PM

133. Not to mention his active persecution of us LGBT folks.

Good riddance, and I hope he wakes up and the lights come on and he finds a really good path before he dies.

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Response to Fortinbras Armstrong (Reply #38)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 01:00 PM

114. Okay then...

how about pedophile protector?

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Response to awoke_in_2003 (Reply #114)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 01:08 PM

116. That he earned fair and square

I don't hold him responsible for what he did as a teenager living in a totalitarian regime, but his adult works - his ultra-conservative views on birth control, the role of women in the church and the world, abandonment of liberation theology, aiding and abetting the cover-up of criminal acts by the clergy - there's more than enough to condemn him that he did on his own.

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Response to Fortinbras Armstrong (Reply #38)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 05:25 PM

142. Yep. There's plenty of problems but the Hitler Youth angle is just stupid. (nt)

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Response to Fortinbras Armstrong (Reply #38)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 09:15 PM

154. No fan of the Pope either, but I wish this meme would die.

Membership in Hitler Youth was mandatory, under threat of dire penalty.

I won't hang this on Benedict.

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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 06:12 AM

6. The only thing I can say is...Holy Shit!

(in the most literal sense).

Did any Catholic DU'ers have any inkling this was going to happen?

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #6)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 12:57 PM

113. No!

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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 06:15 AM

7. One wonders whether the child abuse is going to hit the fan.

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Response to 6000eliot (Reply #7)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 06:28 AM

15. Bingo !

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Response to 6000eliot (Reply #7)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 09:25 AM

69. That was my first thought! nt

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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 06:15 AM

8. You can be sure

that this is all about being sure that his hand-picked successor gets elected. His wrinkled old ass is exposed in many areas, and he needs a replacement that he knows will cover it, and protect his reputation. He can't ensure that if he stays until he dies.

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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 06:16 AM

9. One who never should have been Pope.... Auf Wiedersehen!

(Pun intended)

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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 06:21 AM

10. Isn't papacy a life long commitment?

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Response to darkangel218 (Reply #10)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 06:22 AM

14. For the past 500 years, it has been, but there is precedence (apparently, if you go back that far)

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Response to hlthe2b (Reply #14)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 07:47 AM

36. If you are the head of a superstition based industry

You can make the rules up as you go along. I wish that I had an imaginary boss, my day would be a breeze.

If you still believe in god when you have completed your theocratic college, you were not paying attention.

Make way for the next scammer

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Response to Richard_uk (Reply #36)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 07:56 AM

39. Thank you for that piece of atheistic bigotry

I now expect to have my post voted out by a jury, because while atheistic bigotry is perfectly acceptable on DU, pointing out that bigotry is not.

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Response to Fortinbras Armstrong (Reply #39)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 08:13 AM

46. I prefer to call it rational thought

Your constitution (i am assuming that you are an american, my apologies if you are not) allows for religious freedom, a very worthy position. you may believe in whatever you like.

However, it does not preclude me from pointing out what utter dribble anything your particular superstition may claim as fact is (the whole freedom of speech bit).

I find it ironic that I am called out for bigotry when the xian holy book actually encourages it, in its worst form:

"And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God..." (Deuteronomy 13: 5)

I am not sorry that I appear to have upset you, I am sad that you take it that way. I hope that your comment is not voted out. You have as much right to freedom of speech as I do (more if you live in the USA)

Have a nice day, enjoy your constitution, you are very lucky to have it.

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Response to Richard_uk (Reply #46)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 08:44 AM

57. You prefer to absolve your bigotry.

I quite understand. Most bigots prefer not to face the fact of their bigotry.

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Response to Fortinbras Armstrong (Reply #57)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 09:24 AM

68. How magnanimous of you. However you do bring up an interesting point. Am I a bigot?

Lets debate:

Here is a definition that I found after a quick search.

a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance

I am happy to accept that definition.

In my defense I would like to start with this rather interesting article:

http://atheism.about.com/od/fundamentalistatheists/a/AtheistBigots.htm

So are atheists bigots or is it just me?

So let me state my position clearly and let the DUers decide.

I like to live in a fact base world.
You however, can believe anything that you want, I do not care. Use faith if you want to as your guiding principle, I do not care what you believe. That is until you make a claim based on your belief. I list some examples of claims made by superstition based groups below.

Gays are evil
Non believers need to be executed
Sunday is a holy day (Shops must shut you cant be allowed to buy beer) I'm going for the beer drinkers vote here.
God says you cant use condoms
Kids should not get biology based sex education in school ( i have a child who is in the US school system so this does apply to me)
need I go on?

So, in my opinion. When what I regard a a baseless claim is made and that claim is based on the superstitious belief of the claimant. And the claim could have a detrimental effect on me, I should be polite and shut up? I think not. So when I speak out against the beliefs of these claimants and their supporting organisations. Sometimes I will do so using sarcasm and accusations.
I think accusing somebody of being a scammer is a factual accusation that could be defended against (with great difficulty if you are the pope).
For the record I wish to point out that I do not hate or wish harm to anyone, that more than can be said for many religions.

So am a bigot?

DUers Decide

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Response to Richard_uk (Reply #68)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 12:27 PM

108. Unfortunately you are painting 'religion' with an very broad brush.

While I am at best agnostic, it seems that your are using 'religion' as a synonym for 'extremist'. While there are certainly many who use religion as a club to try and further their extreme views, there are also many many individuals who subscribe much more to the 'love thy neighbor' philosophy espoused by the founders of their particular religion, such as Jesus or Mohammad.

And, yes, based on your posts, you are a bigot. I'm not sure I understand your anger at religion. As I stated I am at best an agnostic, but I don't feel the need to rush out of the room if someone wants to offer a prayer and an event I am attending. It doesn't seem to have a detrimental effect on me. (Any more than putting my hand over my heart during the playing of the national anthem has a detrimental effect on me, and I find that much more uncomfortable.) When any group tries to force me into their particular world-view I resist. I figure that your freedom to swing your arms ends where my nose begins. But, by the same token, I don't condemn all old white guys because most extremist Republicans are old white guys.

You say that you live in a fact-based world, yet I assume that you accept quantum physics that says, essentially, that at the most basic level you can't know the facts. Is that superstitious mumbo-jumbo? I have known Catholics who were intolerant SOB's and I have known Catholics who were gentle and kind. It seems to me that painting all those who believe in some higher power as 'superstitious groups' is no better than any other form of bigotry - all Muslims are terrorists, all blacks are lazy, etc.

My opinion is that any time you lump all members of a group into the same stereotypical archetype you are being a bigot and it seems that is what you are doing.

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Response to Fortinbras Armstrong (Reply #57)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 10:04 AM

81. why do poeple need others to respect their mythology?

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Response to Richard_uk (Reply #46)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 08:58 AM

65. "I am not sorry that I appear to have upset you"

And that - not your belief - is the problem

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Response to demwing (Reply #65)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 09:32 AM

74. why do you hate the constitution so much?

OK the title was a little more sarcasm.

The US constitution allow you (and me) freedom of though and freedom of speech. It does not provide for freedom from being offended. In fact it guarantees it. Republicans offend me every day. I can suck it up or respond back. I cannot be fearful of offending republicans or upsetting them.
So why does religion get a pass. If my opinion on religion offends or upsets you i am sorry that you feel that way, but it is your problem not mine. I am not sorry for what I said.

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Response to Richard_uk (Reply #74)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 10:26 AM

85. Oh stop the sanctimonious nonsense.

This has nothing to do with the "constitution" (which is about the government btw, private websites can set any rules they want) This is about common courtesy. There is a way to get your point across without being a rude condescending jerk.

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Response to Richard_uk (Reply #74)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 11:43 AM

97. The constitution guarantees free speech

well, it enumerates free speech as an inalienable right, but you know what I mean...

But with that right comes a social responsibility to not be a prick, especially to your liberal/progressive allies. Just because you are free to speak, doesn't always mean you should always speak freely.

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Response to Richard_uk (Reply #74)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 07:34 PM

151. No, the US constitution does not allow "freedom of though and freedom of speech".

I'm going to take a leap and assume you meant "freedom of thought" not "though". The constitution does not allow for any "freedom of thought". Not sure where you get "freedom of thought" from but not the constitution.

Amendment 1 does say this:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.


DU is private website, not Congress and as such can have laws prohibiting any or all of those.

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Response to Richard_uk (Reply #46)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 09:54 AM

79. I wasn't juror #2 LOL - gee I wonder who alerted.

At Mon Feb 11, 2013, 08:30 AM an alert was sent on the following post:

I prefer to call it rational thought
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=395857

REASON FOR ALERT:

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate. (See <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=aboutus#communitystandards" target="_blank">Community Standards</a>.)

ALERTER'S COMMENTS:

"hat utter dribble anything your particular superstition may claim," "I am not sorry that I appear to have upset you." 17 posts, including 1 RBKA, and already bashing DUer's religious beliefs with evident glee. Grossly insensitive and does not vote for Democrats. TOS for MIRT.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Mon Feb 11, 2013, 08:49 AM, and the Jury voted 1-5 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT and said: Bigot.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: There's nothing wrong with this post. The poster says nothing about not voting for Democrats.

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

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Response to Hassin Bin Sober (Reply #79)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 11:45 AM

98. Not being rude to religious DUers

is the rule that DU loves to forget

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Response to demwing (Reply #98)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 11:54 AM

102. Except being rude about the Muslim faith...

That is, and remains, off limits on DU. You can call Christians naive, stupid, evil...just about every name in the book. But if you even hint at attacking Muslims, you're showered as a bigot by many of the same people who crap on Christianity all the time. It's quite odd.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Reply #102)

Mon Feb 18, 2013, 02:51 AM

177. A thread like this is a target for a virulent group of "discriminated-against atheist minority"

clubbers who can't wait to jump in and shove their crusade into everyone's face.

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Response to Fortinbras Armstrong (Reply #39)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 03:12 PM

134. I AM IN TOTAL AGREEMENT WITH YOUR

comment. In my relatively short time on DU, I have observed that atheism is equated with and indicative of intellectual superiority. Oh the hypocrisy of elitism and vice versa! Kudos to you for your excellent post.

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Response to Richard_uk (Reply #36)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 08:02 AM

42. I provide a factual response to the other poster. Do not include me in your attacks & ugly bigotry

I am not Catholic and do not think much of this particular Pope nor the Vatican in general, but I do not share your apparent disdain for countless Catholics who chose to follow their religious beliefs in their own manner (and quite often in opposition to official church doctrine).

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Response to hlthe2b (Reply #42)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 08:34 AM

52. I admit that I was a little sarcastic

I did not intend to imply that you shared my views.

I admit I have little regard for all superstition based organizations.

When a man such as the pope has the ability to cause death through aids to countless thousands simply by stating a baseless opinion on the use contraception. I have no qualms about calling him out.

I suggest that the catholic church is not a force for good in the world (you can debate that if you wish, it has been debated before):



Encouraging rational though and debate, i think is a good cause.

Sometimes it is done with a little sarcasm an apparently it can touch a nerve.

I stand by my words, bring on the next scammer.

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Response to hlthe2b (Reply #42)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 10:04 AM

80. Catholics who chose to follow their religious beliefs in their own manner (and quite often

in opposition to official church doctrine).

Wouldn't that make them some form of Protestant?

Not mocking as I I have said before; just trying to understand how that works compared to what I have read.

Thanks

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Response to lunasun (Reply #80)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 10:57 AM

87. Google might be your friend...

As i posted above, I'm not Catholic--but I'm not ignorant of basic aspects of this and several mainstream religions--nor of atheism.

And, no, Catholics who live a so-called "menu" practice of their religion are NOT Protestants, bad pun notwithstanding.

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Response to Richard_uk (Reply #36)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 08:13 AM

47. thank "god" someone mentioned it...

...when we drop superstition we will finally be free as human beings. I was wishing someone at his level in the church would "come out" on the hypocrisy of it all. They need a figurehead to give their superstition credibility.

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Response to Richard_uk (Reply #36)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 09:28 AM

72. Hey, a little more respect.

Live and let live.

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Response to Beacool (Reply #72)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 09:44 AM

77. Live and let live I do like that idea,

Respect however has to be earned.

It is not earned by covering up the sexual abuse of children a protecting the those that commit these acts. It is not earned by blaming the ills of the world on secularism. It is not earned by calling homosexual acts violations of divine and natural law.

Live and let live, I wish that the pope would take your wise advice.

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Response to Richard_uk (Reply #77)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 11:29 AM

93. +1 n/t

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Response to darkangel218 (Reply #10)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 06:34 AM

19. He did not want his body placed for extended public viewing like his predecessor's was.

His predecessor's body was not even embalmed, and it lay in state for a few more days than was prudent. Maybe the current pope wants to preempt Dark Aged rituals being performed with regard to his remains.

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Response to John1956PA (Reply #19)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 09:02 AM

66. A pope wanting to preempt Dark Age rituals?

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Response to Brickbat (Reply #66)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 02:19 PM

125. Not all popes and R. C. clergy believe the church dogma.

I am cynical. I think many in the R. C. hierarchy do not believe church dogma such as scripture authenticity and concept of afterlife. I think that this pope is willing to allow outdated teachings to enslave believers, but is reluctant to be the victim of the trappings of the church's primitive postmortem rites.

I think that Benedict was repulsed by the un-embalmed, putrefying remains of the previous pope in public view for a few days beyond what would appear to be prudent. There were reports of dignitaries in the front row holding handkerchief to their noses.

This is just my two cents as an ex-Catholic, now atheist.

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Response to John1956PA (Reply #19)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 09:43 AM

76. Well he doesn't quite have the status of the previous pope

so he doesn't need to worry about his body being delayed for embalming.

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Response to darkangel218 (Reply #10)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 06:34 AM

20. It's legitimate, just very, very rare

I think it's only happened three or four times before, all of those in medieval times.

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Response to Posteritatis (Reply #20)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 09:50 PM

158. Maybe they will go without a pope.

And spare us.

The energy vibes I get from the popes and Vatican in general are rotten sick ones.

Grrrrrr *shrugs*

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Response to darkangel218 (Reply #10)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 07:38 AM

33. Supreme Court used to be, too.

It's better he doesn't hold on past his time.

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Response to darkangel218 (Reply #10)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 09:16 PM

156. That's what they say.

This was frequently asked during the last painful days of John Paul II, and the short answer was, "Popes don't do that."

That's why, to me, this whole story stinks like a 3-day-old mackerel.

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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 06:21 AM

12. First papal resignation since 1415

If you count that one as more "forced out of office" because of the whole "three claimaints to the throne" thing, it's the first since 1294.

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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 06:28 AM

16. Holy moley!

No one saw that one coming!

Curiouser and curiouser it gets.

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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 06:29 AM

17. He's doing the right thing, but it can't have been easy for him

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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 06:35 AM

21. The man is 86 years old

I bet he's losing his wits and done some crazy stuff. His staff and favorite bishops probably recommended it.

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Response to fasttense (Reply #21)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 11:06 AM

89. Obviously ... he's too pooped to Pope

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Response to Auggie (Reply #89)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 06:02 AM

172. Auggie you made my day. I couldn't stop laughing. Thanks. n/t

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Response to fasttense (Reply #21)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 02:05 PM

124. But I thought the Pope was "infallible".

How could he "lose his wits" and "do crazy stuff"? Wouldn't that make his senility and crazy actions godlike?

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Response to Zoeisright (Reply #124)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 02:48 PM

129. He is only infallible when he speaks ex cathedra. And there is no evidence that he is senile.

Senility is a specific condition and calling someone senile just because they are old is ageist.

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Response to Zoeisright (Reply #124)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 05:27 PM

143. That's not what papal infallibility means.

The concept is very, very strictly defined. There's somewhere between seven and a dozen cases of outright infallible statements the last two thousand years. It absolutely does not mean "everything the Pope says is true," and never has meant that.

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Response to fasttense (Reply #21)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 12:18 AM

162. Maybe he got some wits...

... and realized the hypocrisy of covering for pedophile priests was doing to the Vatican.

It might have finally sunk into his head.

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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 06:50 AM

22. One can only imagine the scandal that would force this Pope out of

office.

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Response to msanthrope (Reply #22)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 12:05 PM

105. Or, a wealth of new candidates. Sounds kind of crazy, but the first thing I thought when I saw this:

Tony Blair.

His conversion to Catholicism upon leaving office was publicized. He's a lot younger, although married with children. It would be a break with tradition, but it might cause a resurgence of interest. And the Pope stressed his old age for leaving.

As I said, sounds crazy, but it's not like the Cardinals care about what most of us think and the rebellion of the Nuns on the Bus and other movements might have gotten their attention.

Not that Tony would be good choice after having made a mess, but after watching a decade of the insane clown posse GOP here, anything is possible. I also thought until I looked at the BBC link this was the Onion...

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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 06:58 AM

24. Thought the job was gonna be all child's play.

he was disappointed

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Response to Ichingcarpenter (Reply #24)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 07:57 AM

40. Boy oh boy oh boy oh boy

and another please

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Response to Ichingcarpenter (Reply #24)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 08:38 AM

54. LOL! nt

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Response to Ichingcarpenter (Reply #24)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 11:37 AM

96. You nailed it, lol! n/t

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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 06:58 AM

25. As a non-practicing Catholic, I'm encouraged to see this.

Surely they can do much better.

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Response to Kath1 (Reply #25)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 07:16 AM

29. From a barely practicing Catholic, we need someone

like John the twenty-third, from the sixties. But Benedict has stacked the Cardinals with hard line right wing theologs. Will just have to wait and see. But I'm glad to see him go, Benedict has caused much damage.

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Response to life long demo (Reply #29)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 08:47 AM

61. Thank you.

I agree that he has done a lot of damage. It certainly would be nice to see a Pope that would bring the Church into this century but I wouldn't hold my breath.

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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 07:08 AM

27. Pope will tell all



In March

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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 07:14 AM

28. Alright, how old was the boy involved?

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Response to Lucky Luciano (Reply #28)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 08:11 AM

45. That was my first thought, too.

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Response to Lucky Luciano (Reply #28)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 08:13 AM

48. Italy suspends Vatican bank card payments

The Italian central bank has suspended all bank card payments in the Vatican, citing its failure to implement fully anti-money laundering legislation, Italian media report.

The Holy See was required to meet European Union safeguards on finances by the start of 2013.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-20903443

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Response to PADemD (Reply #48)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 11:20 AM

90. That would be disappointing if it's all about the money.

Does everything in this modern world have to be about the money? Frankly, I'd prefer any other kind of scandal to that.

What the church needs is someone who can lead it into the 21st century as a liberal institution promoting peace and social justice, but I have very little hope this will happen.

I think what will happen is various mergers and schisms, leaving us with a church divided. A powerful figure will unite the authoritarian right wing patriarchy of the Catholic-Orthodox-Anglican churches. Modern liberal communities will be excluded and form their own loose coalitions with their own lines of succession. This liberal church will be the one that survives the increasing transparency of the internet age.

But if modern communication systems fail, well then, we're all fucked. Earth becomes the hot radioactive hell we've always feared as the fundamentalists fight it out for world domination.

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Response to PADemD (Reply #48)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 12:22 PM

107. Thanks! That was my first thought: Vatican banking scandal about to erupt.

To make a Pope resign, it must be very big.

The BBC article page has links to...

Vatican bank 'needs more reform', report says (July 2012)
(my summary: inadequate controls on money-laundering to terrorists)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-18883902

Vatican Bank chief Tedeschi dismissed (May 2012)
(my summary: Italian police investigating him for money-laundering)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-18200083

Vatican Bank 'investigated over money-laundering' (Sept. 2010)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11380628

---

If the Pope has been money laundering for terrorists, which terrorists would that likely be? My first guess: Right-wing paramilitaries in Colombia, who are responsible for thousands of murders of trade unionists and other advocates of the poor, and have a highly organized and political criminal organization (called "the Black Eagles"), tied to the (U.S. funded/trained) Colombian military and to Bush Jr. pal, Alvaro Uribe, president (and mafia boss) of Colombia during the Bush Junta. The Bush Junta was using the U.S. "war on drugs" to brutally displace FIVE MILLION peasants from their lands, in my opinion to consolidate the cocaine trade into fewer hands and to better direct its trillion+ dollar revenue stream to certain beneficiaries (U.S. banksters? the Bush Cartel? etc.). (The Vatican?)

I'm just guessing, as to which terrorists the Pope might have been funding. I have no evidence that it's the Bush-connected Colombia mafia--but it's an educated guess. The Pope wouldn't be money-laundering for Islamists, I wouldn't think. And the Pope wouldn't resign merely because of inadequate Vatican banking controls on money-laundering. He's likely been personally tied to something in the banking investigation.

It's possible he would resign over the child abuse cover-up, due to the cumulative impact of the scandal. It is quite a massive scandal and may be hurting church revenues. But there doesn't seem to be a precipitating event--that we know of--recent "smoking gun" sort of thing that would require this very, VERY unusual resignation.

So I think it's something lurking in the shadows in this Vatican banking investigation--such as I've suggested--and it would have to be something very bad, to prompt a Pope to resign. It's been 600 to 800 years since that's happened.

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Response to Peace Patriot (Reply #107)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 02:58 PM

132. Scandals over the Vatican Bank aren't exactly new!

Remember the Roberto Calvi affair way back in 1982? Calvi was found hanging from Blackfriar Bridge in London. There have been allegations ever since of involvement in money laundering and some shadowy secret organizations, primarily the Propaganda Due or P2 Masonic Lodge.

P2 was a 'Black Lodge' not recognized by Italy's Masonic leadership. They were so powerful that they were sometimes referred to as "a shadow government," ready to seize power if Italy's political leadership faltered.

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Response to LongTomH (Reply #132)

Mon Feb 18, 2013, 01:25 AM

175. Yeah, but there's a new scandal brewing--current investigation of Vatican banking...

...by the Italian police (as I said, connected to money-laundering for terrorist groups). But it's possible that the current brewing scandal is an outgrowth of the one in the 1980s. Also, I wanted to add, that, if I'm right that it's the Colombia 'mafia,' it might be AUC, the predecessor of the Black Eagles. AUC was officially designated a "terrorist organization" by the U.S. State Department. I don't think they've caught up with the Black Eagles yet, to officially call them what they are--and they may not, since the "Black Eagles" was/is a Bush Junta phenomenon and the Obama administration is into ignoring Bush Junta crimes. There was a phony demobilization of the AUC, but it was reborn as the Black Eagles during the Bush Junta. They, like the AUC, are closely tied to the U.S.-funded, U.S.-trained Colombian military, and to major drug trafficking.

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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 07:17 AM

30. New Pope selection process will make it more modern

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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 07:31 AM

31. If this man speaks with god?

When he asked her if he could resign, did she say yes?

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Response to Richard_uk (Reply #31)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 12:44 PM

111. Lol! Could be.

What a set-back he's been for everything progressive, but perhaps most of all for women Catholics. Not even a hint of breaking up this extremely un-Christian, dimwitted and sexually sick boys' club--but more than that, they've mounted an Inquisition against the nuns who ARE doing Christian work. But this Roman Catholic Church crime against women is much older than Benedict--goes back about 1,500 years. He has been quite consistent with this appalling sin. So, if God the Mother spoke to him, I doubt that he could hear Her. He'd think it was the Devil, the snake, the Great Evil One, tempting him to give up his steadfast defense of the indefensible.

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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 07:36 AM

32. So the Vice Pope moves up until the next election cycle?

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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 07:39 AM

34. The prophecy of St. Malachy

Interesting. The next pope is supposed to be the last one according to St. Malachy, a 12th century bishop in Ireland.

112 Peter the Roman, who will Nourish the sheep in many tribulations; when they are finished, the city of seven hills will be destroyed, and the dreadful judge will judge his people. The end.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prophecy_of_the_Popes

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Response to OnlinePoker (Reply #34)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 07:48 AM

37. Here's an easy fix to that. NO MORE POPES. NO MORE NEXT ONE.

Wouldn't that be a nice change?

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Response to valerief (Reply #37)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 11:32 AM

94. Hell yes!

No more Dark Ages, no more religion! #atheist

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Response to OnlinePoker (Reply #34)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 08:00 AM

41. The Last Pope by John Hogue

http://www.amazon.com/Last-Pope-John-Hogue/dp/1862047324/ref=sr_1_1_title_0_main?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1360587331&sr=1-1&keywords=the+last+pope+by+john+hogue

"The 12th century Irish seer St. Malachy prophesied an end to the Roman Catholic Church and predicted the fates of the Popes until Judgement Day."

Excellent Book

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Response to OnlinePoker (Reply #34)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 08:45 AM

58. A likely 16th century forgery

And only acurrate since its discovery thanks to vagueness.

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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 08:08 AM

43. Wow, that came out of nowhere!

Popes can resign?

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Response to Odin2005 (Reply #43)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 08:16 AM

49. You have to give up something for Lint

He couldn't think of anything else

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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 08:10 AM

44. Must be a specific illness. Hopefully, he will have no hand in choosing his successor. nt

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Response to onehandle (Reply #44)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 12:49 PM

112. No, Popes don't resign because of illness. He's a monarch. Monarchs don't resign. nt

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Response to Peace Patriot (Reply #112)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 05:29 PM

144. Except for the many who resign or otherwise abdicate, that is.

If you're saying monarchs don't stand down you haven't been reading the news much in the last decade, because there's been abdications and resignations all over the place.

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Response to Posteritatis (Reply #144)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 12:29 PM

169. The Vatican doesn't live in the last decade. It lives in the 10th century.

And I don't think you understand the patriarchal hysteria--indeed, insanity--of the MEN of the Church hierarchy in their insistence that the Pope has a "lineage" back to St. Peter. They mean it LITERALLY. To them it is spiritual DNA, linking the current papal monarch to the last papal monarch to all the previous papal monarchs, back to St. Peter. That's why it has been nearly unthinkable for a pope to "resign."

And, having a pope resign--i.e., this one--the first to do so in 600 years--means that something is very much amiss in this MONARCHY. Or that is a very safe assumption. It ain't old age or infirmity. Popes DON'T "resign" for that reason. And exactly like hereditary kings, St. Peter's DNA weathers every scandal, every crime, every horror, every mortal sin, and even vast numbers of scandals, crimes, horrors and sins. Spiritual DNA exists in a rare ether that is not affected by worldly concerns.

I know there are some current instances of WORLDLY monarchs "resigning." That is not relevant to the Papacy. The Papacy is GOD's monarchy, in their view. And, among the things that this male establishment has asserted is that THEY "crown" worldly kings. They have more authority than any worldly monarch.

The official Church literally exists in an early Medieval era. That is how popes, cardinals and bishops think; that is how they behave; those are the kinds of laws and social rules they adhere to--and the rewards in that extremely top-down, monarchical system are doled out on the basis of medieval fealty, deference and obedience TO A MONARCH.

Thus, it is strange, to say the least, for this monarch to "resign." And it seems very unlikely that his "resignation" is for the reasons he states--age, infirmity. Could be. But--given the huge scandals of his REIGN--it is probably not true, and is instead connected to personal culpability in one of the two big scandals we know about--the child abuse scandal or the CURRENT (not 1980s) Vatican banking investigation, or perhaps some other. That is a good guess, that he has done something so discreditable that he was forced to resign. Another possibility is that the cumulative effect of his mismanagement of these scandals has so reduced Church revenue that a power faction among the cardinals has forced him out. The Vatican and its cardinals lie like Bushwhacks. You really can't believe anything they say--so all this talk about how "surprised" everybody is, is probably nonsense. It was a forced "resignation" for one reason or another. And the gravity of the crisis was such that overturning 600 years of precedent and the "DNA" back to St. Peter was the lesser 'evil.'

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Response to Peace Patriot (Reply #112)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 12:10 AM

161. Actually they do and have resigned.

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Response to Peace Patriot (Reply #112)

Mon Feb 18, 2013, 12:43 AM

174. the Pope isn't a monarch

A monarch is an absolute sovereign of a state through heredity. Popes are voted into office by the cardinals, not through birthright... how could they through birthright what all members of the hierarchy aren't permitted to marry and not allowed legitimate issue?.

The office of Pope is a lifetime appointment because of the belief the church itself has fostered since its inception that the Pope is so holy they are the closest thing to God on earth thereby being nearly divine, and when one is magically "recognized" (ie, voted in by the cardinals) with this special holiness it can't be taken back thereby the church having to admit that the pope was NOT so magically holy after all.

This is why it is so astounding that Ratz is resigning especially with such a lame excuse as age and ill health and why it hasn't been done for hundreds and hundreds of years... it shakes the church to its foundation the belief that the church itself has always fostered of the near divinity of the Pope, and for centuries (once Protestantism got a foothold in Europe) that Catholics were maligned because of their apparent allegiance to the Pope was more than to the Christian faith.



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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 08:21 AM

50. next time someone without the unwashable soul taint of the nazi horror n/t

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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 08:30 AM

51. During Lent?

That's odd. I'd expect him to wait until Easter at least.

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Response to ButterflyBlood (Reply #51)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 08:37 AM

53. Maybe it's FOR Lent.

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Response to ButterflyBlood (Reply #51)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 09:29 AM

73. That floored me too.

I wonder if he's very ill.

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Response to Beacool (Reply #73)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 10:21 AM

84. If he was that ill, why not just wait until he dies?

More likely that he's becoming either physically or mentally incapacitated in some way that could drag on for years.

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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 08:38 AM

55. Just what will an ex-Pope do?

the ones in our past just fade to dust in the crypt.

A new younger progressive Pope is what the church needs & should have had but again, the system is rigged. Infallible not so much.

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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 08:39 AM

56. Good riddance. nt

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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 08:47 AM

60. Pope placed on gardening leave after accepting lucrative offer to join Islam

Pope Benedict XVI has been placed on gardening leave after accepting an ‘unbelievably generous’ offer to join Islam on a free transfer during the religious transfer window.

In what is believed to be a historic move between the two great traditional rivals, the Pope will take a leading role in his new side as they seek to become the dominant force in world religion.

In a brief statement the Pontiff revealed his thoughts had been turning increasingly towards Mecca and that Islam represented his ‘greatest professional challenge’.

The former Cardinal Ratzinger confirmed he would work his four-week notice period minus any holidays he carried forward from last year, but was immediately escorted from his gold throne.

http://newsthump.com/2013/02/11/pope-placed-on-gardening-leave-after-accepting-lucrative-offer-to-join-islam/

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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 08:48 AM

62. He's retiring to Mount Olive, but Popeye says "no way"

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Response to TheCowsCameHome (Reply #62)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 08:54 AM

64. You rascal

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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 08:51 AM

63. 10...9...8...7...6...It is Obama's fault! nt

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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 09:22 AM

67. I heard that he got a better job offer from the Mormons

Better pay and a couple of extra weeks of vacation.

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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 09:26 AM

70. This is confirmed by the Vatican's own web site:

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/speeches/2013/february/documents/hf_ben-xvi_spe_20130211_declaratio_en.html

Dear Brothers,

I have convoked you to this Consistory, not only for the three canonizations, but also to communicate to you a decision of great importance for the life of the Church. After having repeatedly examined my conscience before God, I have come to the certainty that my strengths, due to an advanced age, are no longer suited to an adequate exercise of the Petrine ministry. I am well aware that this ministry, due to its essential spiritual nature, must be carried out not only with words and deeds, but no less with prayer and suffering. However, in today’s world, subject to so many rapid changes and shaken by questions of deep relevance for the life of faith, in order to govern the barque of Saint Peter and proclaim the Gospel, both strength of mind and body are necessary, strength which in the last few months, has deteriorated in me to the extent that I have had to recognize my incapacity to adequately fulfill the ministry entrusted to me. For this reason, and well aware of the seriousness of this act, with full freedom I declare that I renounce the ministry of Bishop of Rome, Successor of Saint Peter, entrusted to me by the Cardinals on 19 April 2005, in such a way, that as from 28 February 2013, at 20:00 hours, the See of Rome, the See of Saint Peter, will be vacant and a Conclave to elect the new Supreme Pontiff will have to be convoked by those whose competence it is.

Dear Brothers, I thank you most sincerely for all the love and work with which you have supported me in my ministry and I ask pardon for all my defects. And now, let us entrust the Holy Church to the care of Our Supreme Pastor, Our Lord Jesus Christ, and implore his holy Mother Mary, so that she may assist the Cardinal Fathers with her maternal solicitude, in electing a new Supreme Pontiff. With regard to myself, I wish to also devotedly serve the Holy Church of God in the future through a life dedicated to prayer.

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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 09:27 AM

71. I'm utterly shocked.

No Pope has resigned in almost 600 years. It's simply not done. He's also resigning right before the highest holy days in Christendom, the Lent period culminating with Easter.

On the other hand, he was 78 when chosen and was the oldest man to be elected to the job in a few hundred years.

Anyway, God Bless!!


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Response to Beacool (Reply #71)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 01:52 PM

122. The timing is strange

If it is health, he could have waited till after Easter.....

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Response to LeftInTX (Reply #122)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 02:56 PM

131. Yes, it is strange, unless he's too ill to be able to last at the job that long.

Which means that there won't be a Pope chosen before Easter.

Oh, well.........

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Response to Beacool (Reply #71)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 06:19 PM

149. It goes back closer to 750 if you only count ones who really had a say in the matter

Gregory XII was doing so to resolve a schism which had split the church open for decades and which currently had three claimants to the throne.

You have to go back into the 1200s before running into Celestine V, who basically went "Popin' ain't easy, it's time to retire."

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Response to Posteritatis (Reply #149)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 09:44 PM

157. Good point.

That makes his choice to leave even more shocking.

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Response to Beacool (Reply #157)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 02:00 AM

165. per France24:

Cardinal Andre Vingt-Trois, the archbishop of Paris, called Benedict XVI’s decision a “liberating act for the future,” saying popes from now on would no longer feel compelled to stay on until their death. “One could say that in a certain manner, Pope Benedict XVI broke a taboo,” he told reporters in Paris on Monday.

While Benedict XVI did not specify his reasons for resigning, he had already raised the possibility of resigning in 2010, when he said that “if a pope clearly realizes that he is no longer physically, psychologically and spiritually capable of handling the duties of his office, then he has a right, and under some circumstances, also an obligation, to resign.”

He is said to have urged his predecessor, Jean-Paul II, with whom he worked closely for nearly a quarter of a century, to resign after the late pontiff suffered increasingly dire heath but refused to give up his papacy.

“We mustn’t forget that Joseph Ratzinger was very close to Jean-Paul II and was severely affected by the end of his term, Radio France International religion correspondent Geneviève Delrue said on Monday. “Benedict XVI felt that his own health was declining and did not want to find himself in the same position,” she said.


http://www.france24.com/en/20130211-pope-resignation-papacy-life-end-catholic-church?autoplay=1

Sounds plausible. But then it could be other things AND health. Dunno.

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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 09:38 AM

75. Checking my twitter account and thought it was a joke. Wow!!

Face slap moment

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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 09:49 AM

78. Maybe Ringo will get the job.



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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 10:15 AM

83. Given the current climate

I suspect his successor will have to pass an extreme right wing litmus test.

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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 10:37 AM

86. Mea Maxima Culpa

The new movie on HBO. Heart wrenching documentary on Priests abuse. Cardinal Ratzinger (Pope Benedict) was head of the office where every single abuse case went on its way up the Church hierarchy. He then became Pope after providing cover-up for so many cases.

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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 11:04 AM

88. Wrong man for the wrong times

The church really needed a more progressive leader to guide it through all of the revelations and turbulance of its recent past. Benedict was the wrong guy. The church needs a younger more adventurous individual at the helm.

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Response to Franker65 (Reply #88)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 11:29 AM

92. No--perfect man to oversee the destruction of a corrupt,

disgusting empire. He only continued the decline, instead of cutting out the festering rot.

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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 11:24 AM

91. He will not be missed.

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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 11:37 AM

95. Hallelujah!!

Singing hallelujah!

Good riddance to bad rubbish.

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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 11:48 AM

100. I was thinking that his reign would not be long.

He was in his 70's when he was elected.

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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 11:48 AM

101. Scary bloke

 



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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 12:03 PM

104. Perhaps now a (more) decent one can be chosen.

Good riddance, to be honest.

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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 12:13 PM

106. Pope Ratzo leaving?

 

Good.

His age means that he was meant to be a "temporary" pope.

Now let's find the most liberal pope in the Catholic Church history that will not only announce that the Church is nothing but a bunch of old men that has been abusive but will sell off all its Church properties to pay off the victims. And restrict themselves to Rome and nothing more.

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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 12:31 PM

109. February 11 is when Saint Bernadette saw the vision of Our Lady of Lourdes

Our Lady of Fatima's third suppressed prophecy which Ratzinger had major influence was announced on

The third secret, a vision of the death of the Pope and other religious figures, was transcribed by the Bishop of Leiria and reads:

"After the two parts which I have already explained, at the left of Our Lady and a little above, we saw an Angel with a flaming sword in his left hand; flashing, it gave out flames that looked as though they would set the world on fire; but they died out in contact with the splendour that Our Lady radiated towards him from her right hand: pointing to the earth with his right hand, the Angel cried out in a loud voice: ‘Penance, Penance, Penance!' And we saw in an immense light that is God: ‘something similar to how people appear in a mirror when they pass in front of it' a Bishop dressed in White ‘we had the impression that it was the Holy Father'. Other Bishops, Priests, Religious men and women going up a steep mountain, at the top of which there was a big Cross of rough-hewn trunks as of a cork-tree with the bark; before reaching there the Holy Father passed through a big city half in ruins and half trembling with halting step, afflicted with pain and sorrow, he prayed for the souls of the corpses he met on his way; having reached the top of the mountain, on his knees at the foot of the big Cross he was killed by a group of soldiers who fired bullets and arrows at him, and in the same way there died one after another the other Bishops, Priests, Religious men and women, and various lay people of different ranks and positions. Beneath the two arms of the Cross there were two Angels each with a crystal aspersorium in his hand, in which they gathered up the blood of the Martyrs and with it sprinkled the souls that were making their way to God."


Bertone, along with Cardinal Ratzinger, co-authored The Message of Fátima, the document published in June 2000 by the Vatican that allegedly contains a scanned copy of the original text of the Third Secret.

It will be interesting if Bertone is picked

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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 12:37 PM

110. Alzheimers'?

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Response to patrice (Reply #110)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 01:39 PM

119. No, the Vatican is a monarchy. Monarchs don't resign.

Back in the Dark Ages, the Church replicated the monarchical system from the physical world, to the spiritual world, and invented a "lineage" back to St. Peter (not incidentally excluding Mary Magdalen). They frequently mention this "lineage" as if it were an actual biological lineage. Kings might be overthrown, beheaded, etc., but they don't cease being kings, nor do their progeny cease being "royal" and often the rallying figures to returning that "lineage" to power. The Roman Catholic Church has many strange and extremely contradictory concepts. This is one of them--that, though the Pope is supposedly chosen by a vote of the Cardinals, he is simultaneously chosen by God (the Cardinals are "inspired") and thus becomes a descendant of St. Peter and a monarch by right.

Popes don't resign because of illness, any more than kings do. They simply fade away and die, while the Curia and others run the Church. There are certainly intrigues and so forth, as the monarch lay dying, just as there are with a biological monarchy. But there is never any notion that illness requires a Pope to discard this sacred, kingly mantle.

Benedict's age and illness are an EXCUSE--a P.R. point--not the truth. Something VERY serious lay behind this--the Vatican banking investigation, the child abuse scandal or something else.

It's conceivable that some faction among the hierarchy has forced him out, due to the cumulative effects of the known scandals, not anything specific but different things added up, but why would they would be in such a hurry, as to overturn 400-600 years of precedent (calling the very monarchical nature of the Vatican into question)? Why don't they just wait it out (given his age, illness)? Popes have always survived scandals--some of them really incredibly bad in the deep past (and recent scandals such as the Italian banking scandal of the 1980s). Another strange concept of the Church: Popes don't have to be "holy" to be Pope. Same with monarchs. Good king, bad king, it doesn't matter--he's king by right of birth (and, with the Pope, by right of God-appointed "lineage").

This makes me think that, whatever it is, it's REALLY bad.

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Response to Peace Patriot (Reply #119)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 01:44 PM

121. Yep. And I bet he wouldn't be the first Alzheimers' pope, even if that is true. nt

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Response to Peace Patriot (Reply #119)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 01:57 PM

123. What do you know about the Papal Order of the Golden Spur? One of the most recent recipients of

which was the last Shah of Iran? My sister, a highly experienced long-standing liturgist, was around something they did in COLORADO SPRINGS (home of Eric Prince at the time) and was appalled at the absolutely over the top display of wealth as a part of the liturgy. She dis-associated herself with the events.

I have also been wondering what the roots of this thing are: http://www.tfp.org/

And my last close association with my church, close to some 30 years ago now, I felt that there was kind of a push on for African priests, visiting here in America. It was something that got noticed, because some of them had serious persistent problems with the equality of American female LAY Catholics. Recent world drought predictions indicate that Africa is going to suffer even more than it has, extremely so. Wondering here if this isn't somekind of financial adjustment in the RC's relationships with Africa, in order to "re-define" the means by which the RC church responds to that continent's blooming crises.

I'm going to be watching Secretary Kerry.

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Response to patrice (Reply #110)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 01:42 PM

120. My first thought when the bbc quoted 'citing poor health' eom

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Response to tawadi (Reply #120)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 05:38 PM

146. My first thought was "he's in his late eighties"

I'm 32 and in reasonably good health and the guy's predecessor's travel schedule would burn me out in a few years.

Benedict's been in visibly poorer health the last couple of years, needing more assistance walking and so on. His mind could be in perfect working order and he'd only be able to do so much unless he was going to just stay in the Vatican, and I think John Paul II set a bit of a bar as far as making that less acceptable than it used to be.

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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 01:09 PM

117. I understand the sucessor will most likely be a Cardinal. Do you think he will come from

Arizona or St. Louis or Stanford? I'm betting on Louis because of the Saint thing.

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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Original post)


Response to fast_eddie_72 (Reply #126)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 02:43 PM

128. Scalia is evil! why would you want an evil man to do that.

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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 02:40 PM

127. I'm glad I'm not Catholic..

I can't imagine what it would be like to convoked in the Consistory.

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Response to Permanut (Reply #127)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 02:52 PM

130. It's not that painful actually.

And much nicer than being rebuked in the rectory.

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Response to redwitch (Reply #130)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 07:38 PM

170. Ya got me on that one, redwitch..

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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 03:13 PM

135. 'Sex-Abuse Mohony' to Help Choose New Pope

In a statement issued Monday morning, Mahony said it was his privilege to participate in the April 2005 conclave to elect Benedict.

Last month, after the release of thousands of pages of records about sexual abuse by priests, Los Angeles Archbishop Jose Gomez announced that he had relieved Mahony of all public duties. The move, spurred by what Gomez said was Mahony's mishandling of the abuse cases, is unprecedented in the American Catholic Church.

Despite the public censure, Mahony is still allowed to help select a new Pope.

"I look forward to traveling to Rome soon to help thank Pope Benedict XVI for his gifted service to the Church, and to participate in the conclave to elect his successor.


http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2013/02/pope-benedict-cardinal-mahony.html

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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 04:10 PM

136. Do you think they'll send Cardinal Law back home to Boston to face the music now that the Pope

is going to resign? I'll bet there are a lot of nervous people in the Vatican and elsewhere that are worried about
what may be behind this resignation.

Health? maybe, other things, probably.

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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 05:13 PM

139. Good riddance. But, I doubt the next one will be any better.

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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 05:55 PM

147. Bye Bye Pope Maledict, We Won't Miss Ya

Ratzinger's main job has been to keep all the pedophiles out of prison.

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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 06:06 PM

148. Resignation accepted...



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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 06:58 PM

150. A signal from above ?

Lightning hits St Peter's hours after Pope Benedict stuns cardinals with first resignation in 600 years



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2276884/Pope-Benedict-XVI-resigns-First-Pontiff-600-years-stand-longer-strength-carry-on.html#axzz2KcjsAjgK

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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 08:06 PM

152. Wonder fresh scandal with his name on it is coming soon?

How many victims couldn't be bought off this time?

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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 09:13 PM

153. Something about this just isn't adding up.

Out of the blue resignation? In just two weeks' time?

The sex scandal gaining new traction, with the revelations out of Ireland, and the developments in LA?

The long-held rule that Popes do not resign, no matter how poor their health? (This was often asked late in JPII's papacy, and the explanation was that Popes don't resign. If anyone had a good reason to resign, it was JPII._

The recent controversy with the valet?

This is just all too sudden...and odd...to be just one more old man announcing his retirement.

Not that the true story will ever come out, not from an organzation so adept at obfuscation as the Catholic Church.

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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 09:15 PM

155. Good riddance, you wont be missed.

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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 11:03 PM

159. Probably wants to go hunting with the Big Dick...

They were Nazi youth together.

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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 11:47 PM

160. While I was never a fan of Pope Ratzinger

I do wish him and his love for cats well. That is the sanest thing about this man, he is a cat lover. If it weren't for that I would have kicked him to the curb long ago.

He was however thought to be nothing but an "interim pope". I do not believe that the Vatican et al. ever suspected he'd live to be so old.

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Response to happynewyear (Reply #160)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 03:12 AM

166. Trying to Remember ~ Is he the Pope

that was chosen while Bush Jr. was in office?

Wasn't there some gossip that he was the choice of Bush Jr. ?

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Response to goclark (Reply #166)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 12:04 PM

168. yes he was

John Paul died in 2005.

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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Original post)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 01:21 AM

164. Auf Wiedersehen NAZI pope!

 

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Response to triplepoint (Reply #164)

Sun Feb 17, 2013, 05:11 PM

173. Wow!

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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Original post)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 05:31 AM

167. At long, long last ...

a Papal decision that I can wholeheartedly support.

If only the Pope would encourage Justice Scalia to do the same ....

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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Original post)

Tue Feb 12, 2013, 07:58 PM

171. This just in!

Dick Morris has predicted that Mitt Romney will be elected Pope by a landslide.

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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Original post)

Mon Feb 18, 2013, 01:37 AM

176. I love it. Giving 2 weeks' notice like some part-timer down at Burger Sling.

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