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Fri Jan 25, 2013, 10:50 AM

Toxic fog UT: Pregnant women and children urged to stay indoors as pollution goes 'off the charts'

Source: By Suzannah Hills - dailymail.co.uk

Two million people are at risk from a toxic fog that has descended over Utah as pollution levels in Salt Lake City reach an all-time high.

The icy fog has smothered the Salt Lake Valley for several weeks and trapped lung-busting soot emitted in the city underneath.

The level of pollution in the city is now the highest in America according to the Environmental Protection Agency and medical experts are now urging residents to stay indoors.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2267488/Toxic-fog-hits-Utah-Pregnant-women-children-urged-stay-indoors-pollution-goes-charts.html



Lots of graphics with article.

First: Stay indoors? I would recommend, leave town! Indoor air is not much better than what is outdoors. And the Colorado Plateau, just over the Wasatch, is warmer ans sunny, with clean air. The Great Salt Lake basin is like a bathtub, except no drain. Lake Bonneville's ancient shoreline is plainly etched into the mountains. In winter, the basin becomes a land of fog until further notice. Add in humans, and it becomes the Land of Smog until Further Notice, until a storm sweeps out the inversion.

Second: We must realize that this is happening to the globe before it is too late. The Earth is like a bathtub too, layers of atmosphere. And, we are making the one we live in unsuitable for life! It is just a matter of degrees and the march of time as more and more toxins accumulate. We can't leave this town, we have to live with all our waste for all time forward.

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Reply Toxic fog UT: Pregnant women and children urged to stay indoors as pollution goes 'off the charts' (Original post)
Coyotl Jan 2013 OP
psychmommy Jan 2013 #1
logosoco Jan 2013 #2
Ian David Jan 2013 #3
alp227 Jan 2013 #7
kestrel91316 Jan 2013 #14
yellowcanine Jan 2013 #4
kestrel91316 Jan 2013 #15
yellowcanine Jan 2013 #16
kestrel91316 Jan 2013 #18
yellowcanine Jan 2013 #20
kestrel91316 Jan 2013 #25
yellowcanine Jan 2013 #32
CreekDog Jan 2013 #29
yellowcanine Jan 2013 #33
CreekDog Jan 2013 #34
yellowcanine Jan 2013 #35
CreekDog Jan 2013 #37
2naSalit Jan 2013 #59
Coyotl Jan 2013 #36
Dreamer Tatum Jan 2013 #46
Stuart G Jan 2013 #5
Stuart G Jan 2013 #6
geomon666 Jan 2013 #12
ROBROX Jan 2013 #21
Coyotl Jan 2013 #8
Stuart G Jan 2013 #9
Coyotl Jan 2013 #26
dixiegrrrrl Jan 2013 #10
Stuart G Jan 2013 #11
TM99 Jan 2013 #13
yellowcanine Jan 2013 #22
TM99 Jan 2013 #40
Coyotl Jan 2013 #27
TM99 Jan 2013 #39
Coyotl Jan 2013 #42
TM99 Jan 2013 #44
Downtown Hound Jan 2013 #17
Squinch Jan 2013 #24
stultusporcos Jan 2013 #41
former9thward Jan 2013 #47
Downtown Hound Jan 2013 #48
former9thward Jan 2013 #49
Downtown Hound Jan 2013 #50
former9thward Jan 2013 #53
Downtown Hound Jan 2013 #54
former9thward Jan 2013 #55
Downtown Hound Jan 2013 #56
former9thward Jan 2013 #57
Downtown Hound Jan 2013 #58
former9thward Jan 2013 #60
Downtown Hound Jan 2013 #61
former9thward Jan 2013 #62
Downtown Hound Jan 2013 #63
former9thward Jan 2013 #64
Downtown Hound Jan 2013 #65
benld74 Jan 2013 #19
bamacrat Jan 2013 #23
General Zod Jan 2013 #28
Coyotl Jan 2013 #30
My Good Babushka Jan 2013 #51
hatrack Jan 2013 #31
Stuart G Jan 2013 #38
Coyotl Jan 2013 #43
Stuart G Jan 2013 #45
Agnosticsherbet Jan 2013 #52
primavera Jan 2013 #66

Response to Coyotl (Original post)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 10:55 AM

1. kick & rec

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Response to Coyotl (Original post)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 11:01 AM

2. Very sad to watch this.

I am afraid we will see more of this. Hopefully politicians will begin to realize that we only have one planet and allowing it to be trashed by careless corporations and greedy energy companies is the worse thing we can do for future generations.

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Response to Coyotl (Original post)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 11:08 AM

3. Why doesn't Obama want people to go outside? WHAT IS HE HIDING!?!?!?!

Conservatives, get out there and see what's really going on!

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Response to Ian David (Reply #3)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 11:45 AM

7. I wonder how "PRO LIFE" conservatives would react to this story.

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Response to alp227 (Reply #7)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 12:28 PM

14. They'll call it Gawd's will or say it's just a normal cycle.

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Response to Coyotl (Original post)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 11:09 AM

4. How much is a result of burning coal for power production in Texas?



The prevailing winds in Utah in Jan and Feb are from the south and southeast.

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Response to yellowcanine (Reply #4)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 12:31 PM

15. Smog from the deep South doesn't reach Utah to pollute it. It's more likely from the coal-fired

power plants right in Utah, some of which power MY city. We're working on ending our need for that, BTW, but Rome wasn't built in a day and mass suicide of Angelenos is not an option just to sooth the brow of radical environmentalists. And I say this as a fairly radical environmentalist myself.

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Response to kestrel91316 (Reply #15)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 12:57 PM

16. Don't be so sure. Yes the local effect is greatest but mercury in particular can

travel thousands of miles. http://deq.ne.gov/AirDivis.nsf/pages/A-3

Texas is a big producer of mercury from burning coal and much of the mercury is insoluble and therefore travels in particles which means it will show up as smog.

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Response to yellowcanine (Reply #16)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 01:40 PM

18. The prevailing winds don't go from TX to UT. Sorry. Perhaps up in the stratosphere, but

not down where smog is. And there are far too many high mountains between TX and UT. Seriously. Geography, dude.

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Response to kestrel91316 (Reply #18)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 02:19 PM

20. Prevailing winds in Utah are from South and Southeast in winter.

Last edited Fri Jan 25, 2013, 03:26 PM - Edit history (1)

And the Troposphere (where the weather is), extends above 20,000 feet over Utah, higher than the Rocky Mountains at 14,400 feet max. And what goes up comes down again. Seriously. Atmospheric science, dude.

Should add that it is about 1300 miles from Austin TX to Salt Lake City. Not that far in terms of particulates traveling in the troposphere.

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Response to yellowcanine (Reply #20)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 04:54 PM

25. Have you ever lived in or near Salt Lake?? Because I have. You don't know what you are

talking about. The jet stream is constantly coming through from the north and west. The WEATHER blows in from the west. It doesn't blow in from the southeast.

And if it does, there is that gigantic coal-fired power plant down at Four Corners that spews out the pollution. Texas has nothing to do with it.

Smog from Los Angeles fills up the Great Basin. You can track it as you fly over in a jet.

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Response to kestrel91316 (Reply #25)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 09:27 PM

32. Prevailing wind data.

Your experience notwithstanding, the prevailing wind data says that winter prevailing winds in Utah are from South-Southeast. Check it out.
http://www.wrcc.dri.edu/htmlfiles/westwinddir.html

The jetstream is not the same as the prevailing winds. It affects weather, yes but it is generally at a higher altitude than prevailing winds. Note - in no way did I say that the main source of smog is Texas. Just that it is reasonable to suggest that some is coming from there, based on the amount of coal fired plants and the distance emissions can travel. Actually emissions from coal plants travel all over the globe, so a thousand miles or so is really nothing.

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Response to yellowcanine (Reply #20)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 07:37 PM

29. No, just stop. Salt Lake Valley's cars, industry, fireplaces, and its inversions are enough

during these pollution episodes, there is NO WIND, that's why the pollution and colder air settle low in the valleys.

in fact, that's what characterizes this weather pattern --there is effectively little to no ventilation of air from anywhere is, it is stagnating in the valley.

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Response to CreekDog (Reply #29)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 09:33 PM

33. Main source of smog is local, sure.

But that doesn't mean there aren't contributions from elsewhere. And Texas is a very large source of coal emissions only about 1300 miles from Utah, which is nothing when it comes to moving mercury particles around in the upper atmosphere.

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Response to yellowcanine (Reply #33)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 09:36 PM

34. there is no wind in this weather pattern, are you not paying attention?

if there is no wind getting down to the valley (do you know how an inversion works?), then pollution from Texas is not the issue.

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Response to CreekDog (Reply #34)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 09:48 PM

35. Asked and answered. See law of conservation of matter.

Particulates already in the upper atmosphere don't magically disappear just because the wind stops.

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Response to yellowcanine (Reply #35)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 10:36 PM

37. Scientists have already figured out the science of these air pollution episodes

why you are saying they are all wrong?

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Response to yellowcanine (Reply #35)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 12:32 PM

59. In case you didn't know it...

SLC has numerous refineries, a lot of traffic passes through as well as the local traffic. Also there is a military airfield, a big mf'ing copper mine... and a bunch of other ambient pollution. your explanations make no sense and prove you have no clue about atmospheric mechanics to say the least. Get some information, digest it and then review your not so intelligent comments, please. You could also look at the graphic included n the article at the link in the OP and get some info about this, Texas air doesn't get to UT for the most part and your summation is silly at best.

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Response to CreekDog (Reply #29)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 10:27 PM

36. Exactly, no wind and the pollution quantity in the stagnant air just keeps climbing and climbing

unless you shut off the pollution sources. The airport and highways could be shut down, for example, and streets closed to traffic for two days.

This is why it is NOT in the news. The solution is simple and obvious, quit polluting. And we all know that can't be done on the scale needed to change the situation. Instead, children will get asthma, the planes will continue to land and take off so people in Seattle can go to Denver, Chicago, Dallas, or Miami, and commerce will not be impeded by health concerns.

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Response to yellowcanine (Reply #4)

Sat Jan 26, 2013, 01:19 PM

46. Why are you so invested in blaming Texas? nt

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Response to Coyotl (Original post)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 11:20 AM

5. Are U.S news sources reporting this?...I found two national sources...just one...

Last edited Fri Jan 25, 2013, 12:03 PM - Edit history (1)

Notice..this source from the UK..
Why wouldn't our sources want to report this?? I wonder???

one national source:

CBS web site...but I couldn't get the story to come up...here it is....but note: the headline on the story suggests, "Utah Doctors warn on Unhealthy Air..." But the story does not mention any doctors warning..instead goes after a company for polluting" So it is a hit piece on that company. (at least most of it)..doesn't mention much else..only national story I could find Friday morning..

http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=50139659n


Huffington Post reported it two days ago..in its "enviornmental section" or "green page"

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/23/salt-lake-city-air-pollution_n_2534949.html


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Response to Stuart G (Reply #5)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 11:28 AM

6. Here is a link and a qote from Salt Lake City..

note: this report does not say for people to stay inside..at least in the first few paragraphs..It takes a softer tone to this situation..oh..it comes and goes..just hold your breath..it will go away soon.



http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/55695303-78/pollution-utah-cubic-micrograms.html.csp

Deep in the story..we get this :

"Meanwhile, the Utah Division of Air Quality has been puzzling over the remarkably high readings in Utah County. Monitor readings for one hour there hit 147 micrograms of pollution per cubic meter of air — more than four times the EPA’s health-based standard of 35.

Plus, daily average levels remained at well above three times acceptable levels, making them the highest levels the state’s ever recorded for the area."

______________________________________________________________________________________________________

The story goes on to say that one Utah county..has refused to allow vehicle testing for pollution in the past..but it will oppose this in the future..


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Response to Stuart G (Reply #6)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 12:02 PM

12. Just hold your breath?

Well yeah I guess that makes sense.

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Response to Stuart G (Reply #6)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 02:40 PM

21. the poor things will chock to death on bad air

 

tHERE ARE SOME GOOD PEOPLE IN THIS STATE, BUT THEY ALL HAVE TO SUFFER FOR BEING A RED STATE.

It is to bad that California had to set the record straight concerning air pollution. Maybe this area wants to have BETTER pollution than CHINA!!!!

If it doesn't kill you it on makes you stronger..............

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Response to Coyotl (Original post)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 11:48 AM

8. NY Times: On Our Radar: Salt Lake Smog

On Our Radar: Salt Lake Smog
http://green.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/01/24/on-our-radar-salt-lake-smog/

... The air is so tainted that more than 100 Utah doctors are pressing the authorities to lower highway speed limits, curb industrial activity and make mass transit free for the rest of the winter. ....

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Response to Coyotl (Reply #8)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 11:53 AM

9. This is in the "enviornmental section" not front page..

Few days ago...the world knew that Chinese cities were choaking from pollution.
Here in the good old U.S.A. it gets a mention in the enviornmental section..of one national news source.of a city that is also choaking..with record levels of polution

This story gets no mention on the front page or on stories about the "United States" no links on either page..so it is buried..
also the length of the story is just one paragraph...

.Perhaps as it gets worse over the weekend, this will get more coverage..We will see.

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Response to Stuart G (Reply #9)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 07:13 PM

26. Totally buried given the danger. The West weather pattern is starting to break up again.

Maybe the poor folks caught in this will see relief before long. The "fog until further notice" forecasts there are a deep chill of wintertime event.

Meanwhile, the fact that this story is buried is the real news, I think!

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Response to Coyotl (Original post)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 11:53 AM

10. Maybe God is angry at the Mormons?

Perhaps they pissed her off.....

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Response to dixiegrrrrl (Reply #10)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 11:59 AM

11. I think the "Conservative Media" is trying to cover this up..could that be???nt

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Response to Coyotl (Original post)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 12:23 PM

13. There are similar inversions in the Valley of the Sun

Here in Phoenix in the winter months, we have a growing brown cloud again as well. Like Salt Lake City, we are in a valley. We get inversions that trap whatever particulates are emitted. When it is cold, Phoenicians burn their fireplaces. Add high dust particles because we are in severe drought conditions, and thus far in the last two months, we have had several HPA days according to EPA standards. We also had quite a few HPA days due to dust storms the last two summers the likes of which I rarely saw here over the 20+ years of residence.

My girlfriend and I both have asthma as well as I have other medical conditions. I follow the daily conditions on www.airnow.gov. You can locate the current air quality conditions by state and zip code for the entire US.

Phoenix has not gotten this bad, and I have cringed every time I log in and see that big red spot over Salt Lake City. I know that if current climate change conditions prevail that Phoenix will end up like this.

It is truly atrocious and frightening.

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Response to TM99 (Reply #13)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 03:32 PM

22. Had no idea people living in Phoenix were called Phoenicians. Makes sense though.

Wait - maybe not.

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Response to yellowcanine (Reply #22)

Sat Jan 26, 2013, 02:38 AM

40. Yup

We even have a resort for the 1% to prove it!


http://www.thephoenician.com/

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Response to TM99 (Reply #13)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 07:18 PM

27. But Phoenix is not the bottom of a basin, very different.

Phoenix is just a very large demographic concentration, like #7 nationally, so there is a tremendous amount of pollution daily. Wind helps a lot in Arizona, but the Salt Lake Basin has been still for a long spell by comparison. Phoenix is on the Salt River, with water flowing to the Gulf of California. Salt Lake was rising and threatening SLC in the 1980s.

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Response to Coyotl (Reply #27)

Sat Jan 26, 2013, 02:35 AM

39. I said similar, but not the same exactly.

I don't know if you live here or not, but the Salt River is pretty much dry year round in the Phoenix area. Well except for the damned up artificial Lake Tempe that was 'created' a few years back.

I agree that SLC is bad, but please realize that Phoenix is actually a bit worse. We have broken records for the number of days of high pollution. Both Salt Lake City and Phoenix received F's from the ALA last year. SLC has us beat only in that they are in the top 25 for short-term particle pollution usually in the worst of the winter months. Phoenix is in the top 25 for year round particle pollution and summer ozone. Sadly, I predict that we will make the top 25 for short term particle pollution in the coming years.

Here's a few articles on the subject:

http://www.phoenixmag.com/lifestyle/valley-news/201203/cloud-city/

http://www.examiner.com/article/how-now-brown-cloud

Phoenix and Salt Lake are both in 'basins' or 'valleys' which is what causes their inversion weather patterns in colder weather though they are different in size, style, and type. The inversions and the resulting pollution are disturbingly equal.

Sadly, both cities (and states) are suffering due to run away deregulation by Republican governors who refuse to do any thing substantive above the very real health problem in their states that this air pollution causes.

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Response to TM99 (Reply #39)

Sat Jan 26, 2013, 10:47 AM

42. I lived out by Superstition Mountain for a decade

and taught at local colleges in the East Valley. The metro grew enormously out there in that time, from desert to suburbia, and the air followed suit, from cleaner than Phoenix to polluted too. I had to move because of the air, so I know all too well. I'm living in a recovery zone, away from pollutants now.

I did some research involving site lines from West side mountains to East side peaks, and the daily smog cycle obscured the sight lines before midday back then. Today, it is likely not possible except under unusually clear conditions instead of almost any morning.

And yes, these unregulated development environments are the problem. Capitalistic growth/profit is a mindless automaton of ever-increasing poison levels that must be controlled at some future point.

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Response to Coyotl (Reply #42)

Sat Jan 26, 2013, 12:52 PM

44. Then you have seen it up close & personal

And yes, it is getting worse year after year. With my health, I have had to seriously consider doing what you and moving away from all the pollutants.

Sadly, I don't see it changing for the better.

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Response to Coyotl (Original post)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 01:31 PM

17. Thank God they don't have all those pesky guvn'ment environmental reg-yoo-lay-shuns

hampering good old Amurican' prosperity there.

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Response to Downtown Hound (Reply #17)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 04:23 PM

24. I guess all the prosperity goes to the last one left alive.

Like a wierd Conservative lottery!

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Response to Downtown Hound (Reply #17)

Sat Jan 26, 2013, 04:49 AM

41. The good people of UT have chosen by large margins of voters to get rid off

 


those and other pesky laws, now they have to live with the consequences of their choice now.


Clearly the people of UT want this; it is what they have been voting for, their duly elected representatives put the laws and regulations in place to achieve this goal.

Why complain UT, you are getting what you voted for?????

This is what happens when people vote for Republicans.

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Response to stultusporcos (Reply #41)

Sat Jan 26, 2013, 01:44 PM

47. What laws have voters gotten "rid off"?

The EPA governs air pollution in the U.S. not the states or cities.

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Response to former9thward (Reply #47)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 07:37 PM

48. Voting Republican in about every election for God knows how many years

doesn't contribute to the decline of environmental protection? News to me.

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Response to Downtown Hound (Reply #48)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 11:39 AM

49. The EPA is a federal agency.

The poster I was replying to said governors or local officials could change air pollution regulations. They can not. States are only allowed to make regulations stronger than the federal regulations -- example CA which has stronger air pollution laws than federal.

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Response to former9thward (Reply #49)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 11:52 AM

50. So in other words, Utah has done it's part to weaken clean air standards at the federal level

and done nothing to increase them at the state level. There, you just answered your own question.

Oh and, I'm a Californian. I've known a few people from Utah, they like to call my state the People's Republic of California. Well, maybe yes, maybe no, but at least I don't have to worry about pollution clouds, so I'll take my People's Republic over their free market heaven any day of the week.

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Response to Downtown Hound (Reply #50)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 12:01 PM

53. How has Utah weakened federal regulations?

That is your statement not mine. And it is false.

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Response to former9thward (Reply #53)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 12:04 PM

54. As I have now said several times, vote Republican, and this is what you get

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Response to Downtown Hound (Reply #54)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 12:12 PM

55. 2003? This is 2013.

If there was a problem with that rule the EPA has been in Obama's hands for 4 years now. Plenty of time to change anything -- EPA regulations do not need congressional approval. And it makes my point that these are federal regulations -- not state or local. Thank you.

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Response to former9thward (Reply #55)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 12:14 PM

56. If you want to deny that there's a pervasive attitude in Utah against what they call

government regulation and interference in the marketplace, go ahead. The pollution clouds will likely continue to tell a different story for some time to come.

Enjoy!

Oh and, Utah continues to vote Republican, so they haven't changed one bit since 2003.

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Response to Downtown Hound (Reply #56)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 12:20 PM

57. You have totally ignored the main question.

How has Utah changed air pollution regulations? Which regulation did they change? Why has Obama not changed it back? Who cares how they vote. It does not matter to the EPA. Governors do not have the power to change EPA regulations despite your insistence.

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Response to former9thward (Reply #57)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 12:28 PM

58. Look bright guy, I've answered your question several times already

Decades of voting Republican have weakened clean air standards. I don't know why Obama hasn't done more to change it back, but if Utah really gave a shit about its own people, they could do it at the state level like we in California have done. They haven't. It's their own fault. This bullshit, keep the government out of the marketplace and anti-environmentalism espoused by by conservatives who rule over states like Utah is what is to blame for why they can't go outside now.

Deal with it. Take some responsibility, admit there's a problem, educate others, and work to change it at the state level instead of waiting for the feds to do it. And stop voting Republican. Almost immediately after we kicked the Repukes to the curb in CA we got ourselves a balanced budget. If they did the same in Utah, they could have clean air.

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Response to Downtown Hound (Reply #58)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 12:42 PM

60. The UT sitution was caused by a tempeature inversion.

No regulation can stop that. It happens in LA from time to time. You may think LA is heaven but it does have air pollution. I would not live there for all the money in the world. I do agree that UT or any other state can work to get better laws than federal regulations if they so desire.

BTW your budget is balanced because of help from the federal government (taxpayers in the other 49 states). CA gets 40% of its budget ($79 billion) from the federal government. http://www.sfgate.com/politics/article/Debt-deal-could-devastate-California-budget-2352680.php#ixzz2HiG0HoKO

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Response to former9thward (Reply #60)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 12:47 PM

61. No, our budget is balanced because we voted for tax increases

Had we not, we'd still be billions of dollars in the hole.

Even on the worst days in LA, you can still go outside. But hey, it's okay, don't do anything about the situation in Utah. Just blame it all on something else (feds, temperate inversion) whatever.

Who needs them pesky libruls telling God fearing Mormons how to run their state anyways? Utah is doing just great!

Oh, and a word of advice, SFgate is a completely worthless, craptacular publication. Nobody in this state takes it seriously. It's one step above tabloids.

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Response to Downtown Hound (Reply #61)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 02:35 PM

62. So CA is going to reject that $79 billion in federal help?

After all you don't need it according to you. Since you want to attack the messenger here is another source:

From Sacramento — It's a seldom discussed fact how heavily dependent Sacramento is on Washington's borrowed money.

The same goes for California schools and local governments.

They're all huge targets as Congress takes aim at federal debt.

It's unlikely the Obama administration would have defaulted on U.S. Treasury bonds even if Congress had remained gridlocked on debt ceiling legislation. Stiffing bondholders would have irreparably tarnished the nation's image abroad. Instead, Washington would have slammed it to the states and federal contractors.

The real state budget includes an additional $79.2 billion in federal largesse, representing 38% of total state spending. This brings the grand total to $208.7 billion.
http://articles.latimes.com/2011/aug/04/local/la-me-cap-money-20110804

I suppose they are making it up too.

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Response to former9thward (Reply #62)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 02:44 PM

63. LOL. Talk about desperate clinging on your part

What does California federal aid have to do with the pollution in Utah being so bad you can't go outside? If you want federal aid to fight it, then ask for it. At least that would be a sign that Utah actually gives a shit about the problem.

I never said California couldn't use federal aid. I said that even with it, we still would have had a budget shortfall, and we would have had we not passed prop 30.

The difference between CA and Utah is we're not afraid to ask for help if we need it because we don't have that bullshit, "get the guvn'ment out of my business" mentality that Utah and other conservative states have. We're also not too cheap to pay a little more taxes if it means having a clean environment.

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Response to Downtown Hound (Reply #63)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 02:51 PM

64. I don't live in Utah.

As I said before if the people there want changes it is up to them. I just like seeing a little accuracy in these discussions. You should really educate yourself about temperature inversions and air pollution. You will find no law or regulation can prevent them.

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Response to former9thward (Reply #64)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 03:04 PM

65. And you might want to educate yourself about how some Utah counties

aren't even in compliance with federal regulations.

"On Tuesday, the Cache County Council signaled that it will stop fighting state and federal regulators and adopt an emissions testing program for vehicles this year.

Certain they had a better solution for their community with a proposed sticker program, they balked when the EPA and state air-quality officials insisted on the sort of emissions program already used on the Wasatch Front to bring winter smog episodes into compliance with federal law by the end of next year.

"We really thought our program would be better than theirs," said County Executive M. Lynn Lemon, noting that a threatened $50,000-a-day fine was a factor. "We’re going to move forward."

State air-quality scientists have been working on broader plans to reduce winter smog, but they are searching for even more pollution-cutting ideas because plans for Salt Lake and Utah counties still cannot meet federal standards."

I particularly like the first line about how the Cache County Council said IT WOULD STOP FIGHTING STATE AND FEDERAL REGULATIONS AND ADOPT AND EMISSIONS TESTING PROGRAM FOR VEHICLES THIS YEAR.

Once again, it takes a disaster to finally get some action. You say no regulation can stop this. I say bullshit. How about we try it and find out?

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/55695303-78/pollution-utah-lake-state.html.csp

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Response to Coyotl (Original post)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 01:46 PM

19. ANY threads from US MEDIA? US MEdia? us media?

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Response to Coyotl (Original post)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 03:43 PM

23. Did you see The Daily Show last night.

Beijing is experiencing Orange Fog right now, you can see it from space and breathing it without a respirator for an hour or so will subject your lungs to the equivalent of a year of cigarettes. It collects on cars. There was a structure fire that burned for 3 hours before anyone noticed because the smog is so thick.

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Response to Coyotl (Original post)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 07:25 PM

28. Does Anyone Remember This Incident?



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Donora_smog

I'm too young to remember this, but I remember reading about it when I was a kid. It's telling that U. S. Steel acted like a reprehensible corporate entity and denied responsibility.

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Response to General Zod (Reply #28)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 07:55 PM

30. Saw footage about this before. Astounding story.

As the macrocosm unrelentingly approached these micro events if we don't change.

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Response to General Zod (Reply #28)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 11:58 AM

51. Yes!

Well, I wasn't there, but I remember hearing about it. I grew up very near there, in Belle Vernon.

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Response to Coyotl (Original post)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 09:15 PM

31. It's like Beijing, but with Mormons!

USA! USA! USA!

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Response to Coyotl (Original post)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 10:44 PM

38. Worst Smog event. ever...London December 1952...killed at least 4000, sickened 100,000

Great Smog...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Smog


The Great Smog of '52 or Big Smoke was a severe air pollution event that affected London during December 1952. A period of cold weather, combined with an anticyclone and windless conditions, collected airborne pollutants mostly from the use of coal to form a thick layer of smog over the city. It lasted from Friday 5 to Tuesday 9 December 1952, and then dispersed quickly after a change of weather.

Although it caused major disruption due to the effect on visibility, and even penetrated indoor areas, it was not thought to be a significant event at the time, with London having experienced many smog events in the past, so called "pea soupers". However, government medical reports in the following weeks estimated that up until 20th December 4,000 people had died prematurely and 100,000 more were made ill because of the smog's effects on the human respiratory tract. More recent research suggests that the total number of fatalities was considerably greater at about 12,000.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________

You know..it would take an event like the one above to really get everyone thinking about "pollution" and the "enviornment"..Here is what happened in Illinois a few years after this event. So I am living in a two flat apartment with my family...Dad and my uncle upsairs announce they got to change the furnace..All furnances in Chicago had to change to "oil" or "gas" burners by a certain date..all..Now Illinois used to be the largest soft coal producer in America...I was never told why...but sometime in the 80s, I read about the above event...and that is why...yes, every apartment had to be converted..cause of the above event..60 years ago...maybe a movie about it..to wake people up...butI am afraid only another event...sad but true....

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Response to Stuart G (Reply #38)

Sat Jan 26, 2013, 10:51 AM

43. This current windless spell may be related to the breakdown in polar circulation pattern recently

Imagine the northern hemisphere circumpolar air movement failing because the Arctic sea ice is gone, or some such scenario altering the pollution dispersal potential each winter!

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Response to Coyotl (Reply #43)

Sat Jan 26, 2013, 01:09 PM

45. Could be...who knows for sure?? If a few die cause of pollution,

then very little will be done. If many thousands die at once..maybe we will take action. ...maybe..But one thing I think is very important..action needs to be taken soon, or we will be past the tipping point..let us hope there is time left...

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Response to Coyotl (Original post)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 11:58 AM

52. Fart in a gold fish bowl and wear it like a hat, and you breathe your own shit

This is what happened with the famous "London Fogs" of the 1800s. It happened in California in the 50s, 60s, and 70s, and we put through strict regulations that made it better. It is what is happening now in Beijing.

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Response to Coyotl (Original post)

Tue Jan 29, 2013, 04:28 PM

66. We reap what we sew

If we weren't such energy gluttons, this wouldn't be a problem.

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