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Mon Jan 7, 2013, 03:57 AM

Bolivia accuses United States of plotting against Morales

Source: BBC News

6 January 2013 Last updated at 21:54 ET
Bolivia accuses United States of plotting against Morales

Bolivia has "irrefutable evidence" that the US has been working to destabilise the government of President Evo Morales, a senior minister has said.

Minister of the Presidency Juan Ramon Quintana said proof of improper activities involving the US embassy would be given to President Obama.

Mr Morales expelled the US ambassador in 2008 after accusing him of plotting against his government.

A charge d'affaires heads the embassy in La Paz.

Read more: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-20929211



75 replies, 5247 views

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Reply Bolivia accuses United States of plotting against Morales (Original post)
Judi Lynn Jan 2013 OP
BainsBane Jan 2013 #1
bitchkitty Jan 2013 #3
BainsBane Jan 2013 #4
Judi Lynn Jan 2013 #6
BainsBane Jan 2013 #7
Judi Lynn Jan 2013 #10
BainsBane Jan 2013 #11
Judi Lynn Jan 2013 #12
BainsBane Jan 2013 #13
Judi Lynn Jan 2013 #14
Bacchus4.0 Jan 2013 #18
Coyotl Jan 2013 #53
TheMadMonk Jan 2013 #17
BainsBane Jan 2013 #21
Coyotl Jan 2013 #54
BainsBane Jan 2013 #56
Judi Lynn Jan 2013 #64
Judi Lynn Jan 2013 #65
BainsBane Jan 2013 #68
BainsBane Jan 2013 #59
Bacchus4.0 Jan 2013 #20
Coyotl Jan 2013 #55
bitchkitty Jan 2013 #46
bitchkitty Jan 2013 #45
Judi Lynn Jan 2013 #5
dipsydoodle Jan 2013 #9
Judi Lynn Jan 2013 #2
Bacchus4.0 Jan 2013 #19
newfie11 Jan 2013 #8
Coyotl Jan 2013 #15
BainsBane Jan 2013 #22
Coyotl Jan 2013 #39
BainsBane Jan 2013 #40
Coyotl Jan 2013 #42
BainsBane Jan 2013 #43
mojowork_n Jan 2013 #50
Coyotl Jan 2013 #51
mojowork_n Jan 2013 #72
Judi Lynn Jan 2013 #74
Judi Lynn Jan 2013 #75
madrchsod Jan 2013 #16
Coyotl Jan 2013 #57
Judi Lynn Jan 2013 #23
Bacchus4.0 Jan 2013 #24
Judi Lynn Jan 2013 #30
cstanleytech Jan 2013 #28
Judi Lynn Jan 2013 #32
Bacchus4.0 Jan 2013 #33
Judi Lynn Jan 2013 #34
Bacchus4.0 Jan 2013 #35
cstanleytech Jan 2013 #38
cstanleytech Jan 2013 #37
Bacchus4.0 Jan 2013 #25
rollin74 Jan 2013 #26
southernyankeebelle Jan 2013 #27
cstanleytech Jan 2013 #29
southernyankeebelle Jan 2013 #31
Coyotl Jan 2013 #58
southernyankeebelle Jan 2013 #60
Coyotl Jan 2013 #61
southernyankeebelle Jan 2013 #62
msanthrope Jan 2013 #36
Ken Burch Jan 2013 #41
Franker65 Jan 2013 #44
mojowork_n Jan 2013 #47
Judi Lynn Jan 2013 #49
Coyotl Jan 2013 #52
Odin2005 Jan 2013 #69
Judi Lynn Jan 2013 #70
rachel1 Jan 2013 #48
Catherina Jan 2013 #63
Judi Lynn Jan 2013 #66
Catherina Jan 2013 #67
davesliberal1977_gg Jan 2013 #71
Judi Lynn Jan 2013 #73

Response to Judi Lynn (Original post)

Mon Jan 7, 2013, 04:26 AM

1. Do you think this is true?

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #1)

Mon Jan 7, 2013, 05:08 AM

3. Yes. Do you think it's not? n/t

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Response to bitchkitty (Reply #3)

Mon Jan 7, 2013, 05:22 AM

4. It's certainly quite possible

but I would need to see the evidence to say for sure.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #4)

Mon Jan 7, 2013, 05:40 AM

6. No time like the present to start doing your homework,

to start your own research, to start paying attention to current events in Latin America which concern the US government, to put in the time needed to actually know what has happened.

This is your responsibility to yourself. There IS no speed course in something this complex. An important part of your own awareness will start right at your own fingertips as you start getting down to business yourself.

When you are really concerned, you'll never stop looking for the answers. It is that important.

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Response to Judi Lynn (Reply #6)

Mon Jan 7, 2013, 05:49 AM

7. the article says they are about to release the evidence

which means it is not yet available.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #7)

Mon Jan 7, 2013, 06:49 AM

10. Did you not see he said he'd release it to President Obama? n/t

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Response to Judi Lynn (Reply #10)

Mon Jan 7, 2013, 07:01 AM

11. Yes, I did

But I expect he would also release it to the press.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #11)

Mon Jan 7, 2013, 07:18 AM

12. Where did you ever get the idea official business is conducted in the media?

Some deeply serious matters are conducted between heads of states. Old practice.

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Response to Judi Lynn (Reply #12)

Mon Jan 7, 2013, 07:27 AM

13. I'm wondering what evidence you think I'm supposed to find

to inform myself? Such documents usually come to light decades after the fact. I was responding to your earlier lecture. Your point is contradictory. I said I would want to see evidence to know for sure, though certainly the history of US foreign policy in the region makes Morales claims quite possible. You told me to start researching now, yet then you say I will find no evidence in the press. If Morales claims are correct, that Obama must know he has been plotting to overthrow the Bolivian government. Morales would need to release the information more broadly for it not to be buried. But if he is making the charge for domestic political purposes, he may not have evidence at all. And he has already spoken to the press, or we wouldn't be reading the article you linked to, so clearly some of this is being handled in the press.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #13)

Mon Jan 7, 2013, 07:35 AM

14. Morales is not a man who invents things. There would be no point. n/t

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Response to Judi Lynn (Reply #14)

Mon Jan 7, 2013, 09:56 AM

18. Morales makes crap up all the time

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-11816035

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/19/world/americas/19bolivia.html?_r=0

http://www.globalpost.com/dispatches/globalpost-blogs/que-pasa/bolivia-takes-us

those are three different times when Morales said that the US was trying to assassinate/overthrow him. The last link related to protests in the country regarding his proposal to build a new highway through a national park and indigenous area.

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Response to Bacchus4.0 (Reply #18)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 11:24 AM

53. That is a patently broad-brush falsehood.

You should be ashamed of yourself for that kind of illogical broadside. Have you no sense of critical reasoning?

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #13)

Mon Jan 7, 2013, 09:48 AM

17. A memory is all you really need. USA has a loooong....

 

...track record of interfereing in Latin American affairs.

I think it's safe enough to assume that it's true absent compelling evidence to the contrary.

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Response to TheMadMonk (Reply #17)

Mon Jan 7, 2013, 10:59 AM

21. I'm well aware of that

except there was a lull after the 1980s, and US power has diminished greatly in the region. In some ways, it is easier for LA governments to challenge the US now because of its diminished power. I question why the Obama administration would be so concerned with the Morales govt that they would feel a need to oust him from power and disrupt twenty years of peaceful, electoral transitions of power throughout Latin America. Of course it's possible, perhaps even likely, but I'm a person who operates on evidence. I know the US overthrew many Latin American governments in the twentieth century because the documentary evidence reveals as much, not because I heard someone say so.

And of course Morales has a reason to point to the US as an adversary. It helps establish his power base at home. An outside enemy, real or imagined, often has that effect. Our own experience with the Cold War and War on Terror demonstrates that. Castro's long rule in Cuba can be attributed in part to his ability to point to the US embargo as responsible for Cuba's problems.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #21)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 11:28 AM

54. Patently false-Operation Condor is not a "lull" and Reagan-Bush kick in a rampage of human rights

violations that Carter opposed.

George Bush Sr. May Face Charges: Conspiring to Kidnap and Murder Political Activists
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2459135

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Response to Coyotl (Reply #54)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 11:30 AM

56. I'm referring to the Clinton administration onward

Condor began in 1975. The right-wing governments that participated were out of office by the 90s. After the wars on Central America of the 1980s and early 90s, aid to Latin America, as well as meddling, went down dramatically. Under Clinton and Bush Jr the focus was overwhelmingly on Colombia.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #56)


Response to BainsBane (Reply #56)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 05:31 PM

65. Why do you imagine people rioted in the streets EVERYWHERE George W. went

during his tour of Latin American countries? Any ideas?

They even protested wildly when he visited a country he had been supporting, his old, highly paid ally in Latin America, Alvaro Uribe's Colombia.



Bogota

Protest marks Bush's visit to Colombia
Updated Mon Mar 12, 2007 10:47am AEDT

Demonstrators have clashed with police and smashed windows as an estimated 5,000 people took to the streets of Bogota to protest US President George W Bush's visit to Colombia.

Two people were injured and 25 were arrested, according to police.

Yelling "murderer out," the protesters burned US flags and hurled rocks at police, who responded by firing teargas.

~snip~
Similar protests marked Mr Bush's visits to Brazil and Uruguay, the first stops on his five-nation tour that will also take him to Guatemala and Mexico.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2007-03-12/protest-marks-bushs-visit-to-colombia/2214658



Policemen fight demonstrators during a protest against the upcoming visit of US President George W. Bush in Sao Paulo, Thursday, March 8, 2007. President Bush will visit Brazil March 8-9. (AP Photo/Maurilio Cheli)

http://eahopp.blogspot.com/2007/03/photos-of-latin-american-protests.html

Brazilians protest against the visit by U.S. President George W. Bush, scheduled to arrive later in the day for the first leg of a tour of five Latin American countries, along Sao Paulo's Paulista Avenue March 8, 2007. The poster reads, "Go Home Yankee Murderer." REUTERS/Caetano Barreira





Montevideo, Uruguay





ETC.


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Response to Judi Lynn (Reply #65)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 08:17 PM

68. Is this a quiz?

Bush was a war monger. Everyone hated him.

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Response to Coyotl (Reply #54)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 11:41 AM

59. Bush's involvement would be in his role as CIA director

at the time.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #13)

Mon Jan 7, 2013, 10:00 AM

20. you are rightly skeptical. Morales always blames the US for his problems n/t

s

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Response to Bacchus4.0 (Reply #20)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 11:29 AM

55. Patently false and idiotic broad-brush irrelevancy.

What are you thinking when you make up a lie like this?

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #13)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 07:58 AM

46. You should just look at the past.

Obama didn't just magically change our established policy of interference in our neighbors' business. If you look at our history in Latin American AND other countries, it will tell you everything you need to know.

Two plus two always equals four.

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Response to Judi Lynn (Reply #12)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 07:46 AM

45. But, but, but...

What about Facebook and Twitter? They should just duke it out there! LOL

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #1)

Mon Jan 7, 2013, 05:35 AM

5. Reminder of Bush theft of Bolivia's hand-held missiles immediately prior to Evo Morales' election:

Bolivia’s Morales announces treason trial for army general
Wednesday, January 18, 2006

President-elect Evo Morales.President-elect Evo Morales, who will assume office on Sunday January 22, announced on Wednesday that General Marcelo Antezana will face trial for treason after sending 28 aging Chinese-made missiles to the U.S. for destruction at the request from the U.S.

General Antezana, who was dismissed from his position this Wednesday 18, told Bolivian media that Washington had requested the missiles amid fears that Evo Morales would win the presidency. Days later, he retracted his comments. The Defence Minister, Gonzalo Mendez, resigned over the scandal.

Morales' political party, Movement for Socialism, has petitioned the Public Ministry to bring the transitional president Eduardo Rodriguez to trial on charges stemming from their investigation.

Rodriguez, interim president appointed after Carlos Mesa resigned in June, said that he had authorized the destruction, but not the transfer of the weapons, which were the only ones of its kind in Bolivia. The missile handover was an unapproved arrangement between local soldiers and the U.S. military, according to Rodriquez. He made a formal protest to the U.S. embassy on Tuesday, he said.

Rodriguez said his decision to get rid of the weapons was based on recommendations from United Nations and the Organization of American States. The army also reported they were a safety hazard. The obsolete surface-to-air missiles were destroyed in the U.S last October.

A U.S. State Department spokesman said that a campaign to eliminate portable arms in Latin America has been on-going in an effort to keep them from falling into the hands of terrorists.

http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Bolivia%E2%80%99s_Morales_a...

~~~~~

Last Updated: Wednesday, 18 January 2006, 10:59 GMT
Bolivia president sacks army head

Bolivia's outgoing President Eduardo Rodriguez has sacked the army chief and ordered a probe into the destruction in the US of some 30 missiles in October.
Mr Rodriguez said he had been told the ageing Chinese missiles posed a safety risk and had authorised American help with their decommissioning. But, he said, the army should not have sent them out of the country.

~snip~

Letter

Mr Morales' party had threatened to impeach President Rodriguez over the deactivation of the surface-to-air missiles, but correspondents says it has backed away from the threat recently.

President Rodriguez said on Tuesday he would seek clarification from Washington about the episode.

Defence Minister Gonzalo Mendez has resigned so his role can be investigated.

Army chief General Marcelo Antezana will face disciplinary proceedings after he published a letter in several newspapers, demanding that the government release the documents pertaining to the decommissioning.

In October, he had issued a declaration saying he was the sole person responsible for the decision.

But last week, he appeared to reject any responsibility and hinted that there had been American pressure for the missiles to be taken to a US base.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4623424.stm

~~~~~


It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize Bush and Rumsfeld stuck their evil fingers where they surely NEVER BELONGED in meddling in Bolivia's own defense department.

Decent people would never have considered doing something this sleazy, this dirty, this dishonable.

This was just the beginning of the U.S. government's behavior toward this leftist, indigenous Latin American President. Only the beginning.



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Response to BainsBane (Reply #1)

Mon Jan 7, 2013, 06:32 AM

9. Yes

.

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Response to Judi Lynn (Original post)

Mon Jan 7, 2013, 04:36 AM

2. Bolivia slams US over 'irrefutable evidence' of meddling

Bolivia slams US over 'irrefutable evidence' of meddling
Published: 07 January, 2013, 13:00

Bolivia has “concrete evidence” that the US is plotting to destabilize the Latin American nation, Minister Juan Ramon Quintana said. Proof of US “harassment” of the Bolivian government will be handed over to President Obama, he added.

The Bolivian government is “scrupulously following” US activity in Bolivia, Minister for the Bolivian Presidency Quintana said in a press conference

“There is so much evidence to hand over to the President of the USA to say to him: Stop harassing the Bolivian government, stop politically cornering and ambushing us!” Quintana stressed. He added that investigations into drug-trafficking and human rights abuses would reveal a “permanent battle” waged by the US to impede progress in Bolivia.

“In the offensive against the government there are no visible subjects… What we’re seeing are the political machinations of the US Embassy,” which seeks to damage the image of the Bolivian government, Quintana said.

More:
http://rt.com/news/morales-us-plot-bolivia-483/

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Response to Judi Lynn (Reply #2)

Mon Jan 7, 2013, 09:58 AM

19. I can't wait to see the evidence n/t

s

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Response to Judi Lynn (Original post)

Mon Jan 7, 2013, 06:11 AM

8. Given the hx of America this is no surprise

The CIA and others have had their fingers in so much especially Latin America.

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Response to newfie11 (Reply #8)

Mon Jan 7, 2013, 07:40 AM

15. Starting at the beginning, 3 million slaves died in the Potosi mine alone

The people of the altiplano still say the road to Potosi was paved with the bones of those they discarded as useless and who died leaving the place.

The atrocities of the West in Latin America would overfill an encyclopedia and is an unfathomable genocide carried on for centuries.

I still hope Bush Sr. gets charged with murder:

George Bush Sr. May Face Charges: Conspiring to Kidnap and Murder Political Activists
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2459135

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Response to Coyotl (Reply #15)

Mon Jan 7, 2013, 11:09 AM

22. you mean the conquest?

and colonial period?

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #22)

Mon Jan 7, 2013, 10:20 PM

39. NO. In the Potosi Silver Mine in Bolivia, more than 3 million slaves perished.

One might argue some were not slaves in the classic sense, but rather conscripted labor. But, millions of Indians died working in one mine! And a lot more in other mines elsewhere across the Americas, but nowhere near as many anywhere else as in Potosi. It sums up to over 10,000 a year and a slave life span of about 5 useful years.

The mine was exploited for silver for over 275 years during the Spanish era. A 1603 report stated that of 58,800 Indians working at Potosi. At least 30,000 African slaves were also taken to Potosí. About 40,000 metric tons of pure silver were mined from 1556 to 1783, so much that the mountain literally diminished.

From wiki:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potos%C3%AD

Indian laborers, forced by Francisco de Toledo, Count of Oropesa through the traditional Incan mita institution of contributed labor, came to die by the millions or, more probable, by the thousands not simply from exposure and brutal labor, but by mercury poisoning. In the patio process the silver-ore, having been crushed to powder by hydraulic machinery, was cold-mixed with mercury and trodden to an amalgamation by the native workers with their bare feet. The mercury was then driven off by heating, producing deadly vapors.

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Response to Coyotl (Reply #39)

Mon Jan 7, 2013, 10:32 PM

40. so you do mean the colonial period

Not sure why you follow that with a statement about Bush being prosecuted.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #40)

Mon Jan 7, 2013, 11:13 PM

42. Millions and millions died in the history of America before there was a US of America or English

colonies in the Americas. (To most of the hemisphere, "America" means something very different, not defined by the borders of one nation state only.)

So, the history of atrocities in LAmer is very long and continues right up to the death squads killing off liberals and social activists in recent decades.

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Response to Coyotl (Reply #42)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 01:45 AM

43. The period you cite is under Spanish colonial rule

Who do you suppose profited from the silver mined with indigenous labor? Hence in every university in this country it is called the colonial period, as it is in every publication on Latin American History. Bolivians use the same categorization, la epoca colonial, for the region then called Alto Peru.
http://www.umsa.bo/fdcp/UserFiles//File/HISTORIA_DE_%20BOLVIA-DER.pdf

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Response to Coyotl (Reply #42)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 09:40 AM

50. Starting with Bartolomé de las Casas

The editor of Columbus' journal.

His A Brief Account of the Destruction of the Indies should be much more widely known and taught. It's available for free through Project Gutenberg:

http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/20321

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Response to mojowork_n (Reply #50)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 11:19 AM

51. Highly recommended. There are versions with differences.

I recommend the "True History of the Conquest of New Spain"

Regarding the first battle fought under Cortes in the New World:

"...we doctored the horses by searing their wounds with the fat from the body of a dead Indian which we cut up to get out the fat, and we went to look at the dead lying on the plain and there were more than eight hundred of them, the greater number killed by thrusts, the others by the cannon, muskets and crossbows, and many were stretched on the ground half dead....The battle lasted over an hour....we seared the wounds of the others and of the horses with the fat of the Indian, and after posting sentinels and guards, we had supper and rested."

"These were the first vassals to render submission to His Majesty in New Spain."

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Response to Coyotl (Reply #51)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 02:40 PM

72. I most remember the story of Hatuey.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatuey

That and the graphics, in the edition I got from the library. Woodcuts or whatever they were that showed human beings in some kind of small cages, being roasted alive. Others were eaten by dogs, or run through with spears.

Too violently graphic for a Tarentino flick. Or the Grand Guignol.

Hatuey was the leader of a revolt. When captured and told he would 'suffer eternal damnation' if he didn't accept whatever perversion of Christ's teachings had possessed/twisted the souls of the Spaniards, he replied (looking around at all the corpses around him):

", thinking a little, asked the religious man if Spaniards went to heaven. The religious man answered yes... The chief then said without further thought that he did not want to go there but to hell so as not to be where they were and where he would not see such cruel people."


...But I may have another story that should be documented. A valley in Sinaloa -- a narrow bowl about 18 (can't remember for sure, miles or km) by 6 or 8 miles, almost a mile deep -- was filled in with mine tailings. The broken rocks left over after gold and silver have been processed out. The valley became a plateau. Can't imagine how many human beings had to work -- sun-up to sun-down -- how many uninterrupted years/decades/centuries to accomplish that.

If you or anyone you know is documenting locations, places, details, please let me know. I'd just send you a link, but not all the information at the web page was accurately transcribed. (Correction, explanation required.)

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Response to mojowork_n (Reply #72)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 02:55 PM

74. Unbearable savagery, and hideous.

What astonishing gall it has taken all these years for the conquerors to dare to call the native people "heathens" while keeping the record of their own behavior away from public scrutiny.

A whole empire built on lies and barbaric cruelty. Unforgiveable.

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Response to Coyotl (Reply #51)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 03:01 PM

75. Didn't see your excerpt until today. Horrendous.

Would never have known this without your posting.

Too overwhelming for words.....

Thank you. It should be known and remembered.

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Response to Judi Lynn (Original post)

Mon Jan 7, 2013, 07:57 AM

16. half of the world`s cheap lithium is in bolivia

need i say more?

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Response to madrchsod (Reply #16)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 11:31 AM

57. Ding, ding, we have a winner!

And Afghanistan is the other mineral hotspot!

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Response to Judi Lynn (Original post)

Mon Jan 7, 2013, 03:48 PM

23. Information on Washington's Interference in Bolivian Affairs

(This information covers events during the Bush occupation of the Presidency.)

Information on Washington's Interference in Bolivian Affairs
Written by Upside Down World
Monday, 22 September 2008 07:37

Gathered here is a collection of articles, letters, videos, reports, observations and resources regarding Washington's recent interventions in Bolivian affairs, attempts to undermine the country's social movements and embolden the Bolivian opposition.

~ snip ~
Undermining Bolivia: A Landscape of Washington Intervention
By Benjamin Dangl, The Progressive Magazine

Declassified documents and interviews on the ground in Bolivia prove that the Bush Administration is using U.S. taxpayers' money to undermine the Morales government and coopt the country's dynamic social movements—just as it has tried to do recently in Venezuela and traditionally throughout Latin America.


U.S. Should Disclose its Funding of Opposition Groups in Bolivia and Other Latin American Countries
By Center for Economic and Policy Research

CEPR called on the U.S. State Department, the U.S. Agency for International Development (USAID), and other agencies to release information detailing whom they are funding in Bolivia


Politics: U.S. Ties to Bolivian Opposition "Shrouded in Secrecy"
By Haider Rizvi, IPS News

Who in Bolivia is receiving millions of U.S. taxpayer dollars? That is what many Latin America policy analysts in Washington want to know.


Peace Corps, Fulbright Scholar Asked to 'Spy' on Cubans, Venezuelans
By Jean Friedman-Rodovsky and Brian Ross, ABC News

In an apparent violation of U.S. policy, Peace Corps volunteers and a Fulbright scholar were asked by a U.S. Embassy official in Bolivia "to basically spy" on Cubans and Venezuelans in the country, according to Peace Corps personnel and the Fulbright scholar involved.

More, with link:
http://upsidedownworld.org/main/bolivia-archives-31/1488-information-on-washingtons-interference-in-bolivian-affairs

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Response to Judi Lynn (Reply #23)

Mon Jan 7, 2013, 04:00 PM

24. All those articles and accusations are from the Bush administration n/t

s

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Response to Bacchus4.0 (Reply #24)

Mon Jan 7, 2013, 04:48 PM

30. That's why I first posted the fact the article was published during Bush's pResidency. n/t

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Response to Judi Lynn (Reply #23)

Mon Jan 7, 2013, 04:41 PM

28. Is Bacchus right Judi? I mean about none of those articles you just linked being evidence

that proves that Obama has the US plotting against Morales?

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Response to cstanleytech (Reply #28)

Mon Jan 7, 2013, 05:11 PM

32. He didn't take the time to read it, did he?

Why did you opt to try to pressure me using his inept observation?

I always try to share with the DU'ers who also are researching, inquiring, thinking, what previous patterns have already been established by US actions, covert, overt toward the Latin American populations.

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Response to Judi Lynn (Reply #32)

Mon Jan 7, 2013, 05:24 PM

33. but Morales isn't a man who invents things, correct?

except for baseless accusations against the US. Don't worry, the lame ass "evidence" will be about US State Department reports crticizing Bolivia's woeful INEPT government.

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Response to Bacchus4.0 (Reply #33)

Mon Jan 7, 2013, 05:29 PM

34. Bolivia has had outstanding progress since electing Morales.

No one sensible would expect Morales to come apart at the seams because the US would criticize him, when his record stands for itself, as we all know.

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Response to Judi Lynn (Reply #34)

Mon Jan 7, 2013, 05:40 PM

35. Bolivia leader's approval drops to 33 percent

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Response to Bacchus4.0 (Reply #35)

Mon Jan 7, 2013, 09:22 PM

38. And the approval rating discredits the claim that the country has come far exactly how?

Not saying you or judi is right or wrong in your views or opinions, just trying to understand what the approval rating proves.

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Response to Judi Lynn (Reply #32)

Mon Jan 7, 2013, 09:17 PM

37. I didnt intend it to be pressure but still it should be pretty easy for you to answer it with a yes

or a no and get it out of the way though it wouldnt surprise me if the answer is "yes" and that there is a link there with actual evidence of the US being guilty of what Morales is claiming even with Obama as president.

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Response to Judi Lynn (Original post)

Mon Jan 7, 2013, 04:08 PM

25. More info on the "evidence"

Quintana cited US reports on the drug war, counter-terrorism and human rights, saying they fail to recognize Bolivia's progress on "social justice, democratic rights, economic redistribution and fighting the narcotics trade."

The accusation comes amid the ongoing legal woes of an American businessman who was jailed in Bolivia for 18 months on suspicion of money laundering. Jacob Ostreicher was released on bond and placed under house arrest last month.

Ostreicher claims authorities trumped up the charges to extort money from him.

On Friday, the leftist Morales himself accused the US embassy of using Ostreicher's case to conspire against his government, suggesting Washington had used the case as a means of "political aggression."

http://www.alternet.org/progressive-wire/bolivia-claims-irrefutable-proof-us-embassy-meddling



http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/18/world/americas/bolivia-jailed-american-released/index.html

Supporters of the businessman, 53, who had been imprisoned for 18 months, say he faces death threats for exposing Bolivian government corruption connected with the case against him.

------------
Ostreicher was arrested in June 2011 on suspicion of money laundering tied to a rice-growing operation.

----------
Bolivian authorities arrested six government officials last month, accusing them of trying to extort and steal from Ostreicher.

Now some of his one-time accusers -- including former employees of the attorney general's office and the country's interior ministry -- are behind bars in the same prison where he was held.

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Response to Judi Lynn (Original post)

Mon Jan 7, 2013, 04:16 PM

26. talk is cheap. time to present the "irrefutable evidence"

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Response to Judi Lynn (Original post)

Mon Jan 7, 2013, 04:29 PM

27. I believe it. I always wondered why countries like Bolivia, and the rest of South American

 

countries seem to always have a hard time with their governments. You know I wouldn't be surprised that the US had a hand in destablizing that part of the world. We should mind our own damn business. I'm so sick and tired of messing in other countries business. America has become a bully nation. That is just my observation. What do you all think?

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Response to southernyankeebelle (Reply #27)

Mon Jan 7, 2013, 04:45 PM

29. Believe what exactly? That our government was involved when it shouldnt have been? Sure.

Is it now though? I do not know and no, I am not saying "OMG thats impossible" because it would not surprise me in the least if our government was doing something shady that it shouldnt be doing.

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Response to cstanleytech (Reply #29)

Mon Jan 7, 2013, 05:05 PM

31. Yep, did you by any chance watch a movie last night that was on TV "Shooter". It really

 

makes you wonder if our government really is this corrupt. If you haven't seen it try to. Excellent movie. I just stumbled on it and it was being replaced so I got to watch the whole thing. When JFK was murder I lost how I saw my country. I still wonder if the CIA was involved.

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Response to southernyankeebelle (Reply #31)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 11:36 AM

58. When was the last time a major cocaine dealer was arrested in the USA?

At least in Latin America, people understand what corrupts government and police.

So, who are the coke lords in the USA?

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Response to Coyotl (Reply #58)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 11:58 AM

60. This movie was about the government (a senator and his buddies) trying to kill one of

 

our own agent. The corruption going on within the agency. I think Wahlberg was a agent in this movie. They were in Africa. He and other guy were left behind by our soldiers. He was out of service. Then they get him to come back under the fake idea that someone is trying to kill the president. They set up this hugh rally like place. In the end he is looking around to find the shooter and they are all setting him up. They want to kill him. Last minute he realizes something isn't right. It was really good movie. I don't think I heard about drugs in this movie. I didn't see the first few minutes of the movie. So it could have been related I just don't know. Anyway they try to kill him through the movie. He finds out that this senator had the soldiers kill 2 villages of people so they could get a pipe line through their village. The senator said that the other villages saw that and wouldn't do anything because they saw what happens. In the end the FBI shows up and the senator, the FBI man, and Wahlberg all are able to get away. Of course Wahlberg knew they would still come after him. So he got them before. He killed them all. All this was about a oil pipeline and not drugs. To answer your question I have no idea. But I will say with stuff like this movie portrayed it makes you wonder. Then again I want to go take a shower to get the stench off because I wonder if things like this really happen.

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Response to southernyankeebelle (Reply #60)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 01:43 PM

61. I was talking about really, not movies.

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Response to Coyotl (Reply #61)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 02:41 PM

62. I don't know the answers. Our government doesn't have clean hands. Just look at what is going on

 

across our borders.

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Response to Judi Lynn (Original post)

Mon Jan 7, 2013, 05:44 PM

36. That "irrefutable evidence" is coming in "24 business hours," isn't it? nt

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Response to Judi Lynn (Original post)

Mon Jan 7, 2013, 10:50 PM

41. Probably true. The Obama Administration still hasn't given up the disgusting U.S. habit

of trying to dictate who should and should NOT be leading Latin American countries.

Some people in this admin. won't be satisfied until Bolivia totally surrenders on social justice and workers' and indigenous peoples' rights the way that Brazil has(and Brazil's government isn't left-of-center on anything that matters anymore).

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Response to Judi Lynn (Original post)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 03:29 AM

44. Morales and his paranoia

I remember about three years ago, Bolivian security forces raided a hotel and killed some guys, one Irish and one a Serb. It was always claimed that they were trying to assassinate Morales but proof never surfaced. The police said there was a firefight in the hotel but it turned out they just burst into the guys rooms and shot them to death in cold blood. I'd take anything Morales says with a pinch of salt.

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Response to Franker65 (Reply #44)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 06:28 PM

47. Do you have a link?

If this is the episode you're describing, the part about "the Irishman" is correct, but
the rest doesn't match:

http://intelnews.org/about/latest-analysis/content/analysis021/

Croatian, Hungarian, Bolivio-Croat.

The geography's not far off, but the devil is in those details. Right wing opposition
to Morales is partly headed by the ethnic Croat, Marinkovic.

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Response to mojowork_n (Reply #47)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 06:20 AM

49. DU'ers in the Latin America forum looked for all info. available on these creeps.

What a great surprise it is to see so much information gathered in one article. As you probably remember, it was really hard finding information on it, and we all had to sift through a ton of articles, spread over many weeks to see these details and major elements of this obnoxious group of professional violent thugs.



http://www.anarkismo.net/article/13615



The Irish mercenary, Michael Martin Dwyer, with others, in his Bolivian hotel room.

Thanks, again, for posting this article. A poster who hasn't taken the time to research could help himself by reading it. The information it contains has all been available at various times after the shoot out, from various articles.

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Response to Franker65 (Reply #44)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 11:21 AM

52. I'd believe Morales long before I would believe any spin from any US official.

Have you no concept of what culture and people you are talking about?

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Response to Franker65 (Reply #44)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 11:21 AM

69. Socialists in South America have a right to be paranoid.

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Response to Odin2005 (Reply #69)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 01:40 PM

70. That's right. The remaining socialists have every reason if they remember

what has happened in their countries and in other Latin American countries to their loved ones, to their neighbors, to their fellow men/women at the hands of US-supported, financed, directed puppet officials.

If they DIDN'T feel resistance, anger, fear, they'd either be brain dead, very dead, or greedy, amoral right-wingers themselves.

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Response to Judi Lynn (Original post)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 07:39 PM

48. K&R n/t

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Response to Judi Lynn (Original post)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 04:10 PM

63. Estamos sorprendidos. Sorprendidos te digo!

Words cannot express the shock in Central and South America. The US meddling to subjugate our resources to its own aims? Oh, espera....


Speech on the Truman Doctrine

Henry A. Wallace
March 27, 1947

...

I say that this policy is utterly futile. No people can be bought. America cannot afford to spend billions and billions of dollars for unproductive purposes. The world is hungry and insecure, and the peoples of all lands demand change. President Truman cannot prevent change in the world any more than he can prevent the tide from coming in or the sun from setting. But once America stands for opposition to change, we are lost. America will become the most-hated nation in the world.

...

This is the time for an all-out worldwide reconstruction program for peace. This is America’s opportunity. The peoples of all lands say to America: Send us plows for our fields instead of tanks and guns to be used against us... The dollars that are spent will be spent for the production of goods and will come back to us in a thousand different ways. Our programs will be based on service instead of the outworn ideas of imperialism and power politics. It is a fundamental law of life that a strong idea is merely strengthened by persecution. The way to handle communism is by what William James called the replacing power of the higher affection. In other words, we give the common man all over the world something better than communism. I believe we have something better than communism here in America. But President Truman has not spoken for the American ideal. It is now the turn of the American people to speak.

Common sense is required of all of us in realizing that helping militarism never brings peace. Courage is required of all of us in carrying out a program that can bring peace. Courage and common sense are the qualities that made America great. Let’s keep those qualities now.

http://teachingamericanhistory.org/library/index.asp?document=852



The American fascists are most easily recognized by their deliberate perversion of truth and fact. Their newspapers and propaganda carefully cultivate every fissure of disunity, every crack in the common front against fascism. They use every opportunity to impugn democracy. They use isolationism as a slogan to conceal their own selfish imperialism. They cultivate hate and distrust. They claim to be super-patriots, but they would destroy every liberty guaranteed by the Constitution. They demand free enterprise, but are the spokesmen for monopoly and vested interest. Their final objective toward which all their deceit is directed is to capture political power so that, using the power of the state and the power of the market simultaneously, they may keep the common man in eternal subjection.

Henry Wallace 1944

Written in the NYT April 9, 1944

http://newdeal.feri.org/wallace/index.htm


Wallace was one of the most important planners and administrators of New Deal programs. Roosevelt selected Henry A. as his running mate in 1940, and as Vice President, Wallace increasingly represented the U.S. in foreign affairs, traveling to Mexico, Central and South America, China and the Soviet Union.

He proved to be a remarkable administrator of the USDA, achieving an list of impressive accomplishments during the darkest years of the Depression, including price supports and production adjustment, crop insurance, diaster relief, soil conservation, surplus storage, rural electrification, farm credit, food stamps, and the resettlement of small farmers.
During this time, Wallace was one of the most popular authors in the world, and his books were translated into many languages. His motto was "Peace, Prosperity, and Equality", and he advocated a better life for all Americans, as well as citizens of other countries.

Harry Truman became Vice-President in 1945, and Wallace became Secretary of Commerce, with the goals of creating full post-war employment, equal pay for equal work, stimulating foreign trade, and providing technical assistance to small businesses.
Wallace favored diplomatic relations with and humanitarian aid to the Soviet Union and China, and did not agree with Truman's support of the military industrial complex and the Cold War. These conflicts led to Wallace's resignation.

Wallace believed so strongly in the importance of world peace and cooperation that he became a candidate for the presidency on the Progressive Party ticket in 1948. The platform called for national health insurance, a guaranteed minimum wage, monopoly control, equal employment opportunities for women, and equal pay for equal work.

http://www.wallace.org/henrya.html

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Response to Catherina (Reply #63)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 05:44 PM

66. Thank you for educating some here. Wonderful reading your links. n/t

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Response to Judi Lynn (Reply #66)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 06:19 PM

67. I'm deeply hooked on Stone's Untold History right now. Fascinated


and enthralled with Henry Wallace, FDR's VP, who was loved by the masses, by labor, and the world but treated shamefully by the Democratic Party because he wouldn't play to the military industrial complex and the Wall Street scions.

FDR sent him to Central and South America to get allies for the war against Germany. They loved him so much everyone was shocked by how many countries he got to willingly sign on. Everywhere he went there, he was welcomed and celebrated. How long ago that seems.

Here are links to the videos. It's a fascinating series. It covers all sorts of things they don't teach in school. United Fruit makes several appearances.

Thanks for your hard work keeping people informed of what's really going on in Central and South America.


Video 1:

Videos 2-8: https://www.youtube.com/user/achillesmlf/videos


The New Republic, January 5, 1948

Edited version of Henry A. Wallace’s announcement to run as a third party candidate in the 1948 presidential campaign.

"Stand Up and Be Counted"
by Henry Wallace

I am convinced the time has come for an independent presidential candidacy.

Our workers fear the instability of present employment. As their real wages fall, with rising prices, they suffer a steadily declining standard of living and they also feel the burden of new debt.

Our mothers and their sons in school fear the onrushing program of compulsory military training which will take a year out of the lives of American boys.

Our businessmen fear the instability of their markets. Thousands of small independent producers are feeling the squeeze of giant monopolies. Our farmers fear their prosperity will soon end.

Today we live under a one-party rule. In peacetime one-party rule is a real threat to our democracy. The bipartisan bloc represents only a small minority of powerful interests. My reason in striking out for independent action is to give Americans their democratic right to choose.

I have always advocated trucks, not tanks; plows, not guns. I have advocated international planning through scientific technicians to increase the productivity of the world.

Our foreign-aid program must be free of political meddling, and this requires international administration through the United Nations. With its record of circumventing the United Nations, we cannot expect the present bipartisan leadership to fight for this principle.

We have tried to awaken established parties to the urgent necessity of taking action to prevent inflation.

The fact is that the directing of this country does not at present belong to the people, but to a relative handful of wealthy men. The foundation of the government, as presently constituted, is not the general welfare, but the special privilege of industrial and financial giants. These giants control both parties.

That is why the average weekly wage of American workers-- $49—has shrunk until it buys no more than $29.50 bought in 1939. That is why corporation profits have pyramided to $17.5 billion, as contrasted with $5 billion in 1939.

Both major parties serve faithfully the few who own so much at the expense of the many.

Neither party puts up any effective fight against racial and religious discrimination. Neither party defends the First Amendment. Both stand mute while freedom of speech and thought are under attack.

Millions of voters will stay at home if they have only a choice between evils in the major contest for the presidency. It seems to be generally agreed, among those who speak of the lesser evil, that the Republicans are the greater evil, the Democrats the lesser. Personally, I have yet to be convinced that the welfare of the American people can be served by voting for any degree of evil.

I welcome the support of all people who sincerely believe you get peace by preparing for peace rather than for war. I want the peoples of the world to know that there is another America than that which attempts to dominate their politics and dictate their economics.

There is talk that an independent candidacy is doomed to failure because of financing. As sure as I am that the two major parties are controlled by big-money interests, I know that we shall get millions of dollars donated by housewives, stenographers, professional people, workers and shop stewards, and others who will work with devotion big money can’t buy.

We shall keep our eyes on the future and remain confident that in November the American people will stand up and be counted.

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Response to Judi Lynn (Original post)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 01:59 PM

71. This wouldn't surprise me at all

 

After all, during the 1980s, the US via the CIA was busy covertly trying to undermine many democratically elected governments. They supported some extremely nasty dictators, in places like Guatemala. So, yeah, Evo has a point.

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Response to davesliberal1977_gg (Reply #71)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 02:42 PM

73. They certainly did do that, and they did it behind the backs of US citizens.

They knew it was so dirty and wrong they hid it from us all this time. Only recently have US Americans in numbers started learning what has happened and even now it's only the tip of the iceberg.

It's far beyond shameful.

Welcome to D.U. davesliberal1977_gg.

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