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Thu Jan 3, 2013, 10:01 PM

Eight Hospital Employees Fired For Refusing Flu Vaccines

Source: ABC

An Indiana hospital has fired eight employees, including at least three veteran nurses, after they refused mandatory flu shots, stirring up controversy over which should come first: employee rights or patient safety. The hospital imposed mandatory vaccines, responding to rising concerns about the spread of influenza.

Ethel Hoover wore all black on her last day of work as a nurse in the critical care unit at Indiana University Health Goshen Hospital. She said she was in "mourning" because she would have been at the hospital 22 years in February, and she's only called out of work four or five times in her whole career , she said.

"This is my body. I have a right to refuse the flu vaccine," Hoover, 61, told ABCNews.com. "For 21 years, I have religiously not taken the flu vaccine, and now you're telling me that I believe in it."

More than 15,100 flu cases have been reported to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention since Sept. 30, including 16 pediatric deaths. Indiana's flu activity level is considered high, according to the CDC, which last month announced that the flu season came a month earlier than usual.

Read more: http://abcnews.go.com/Health/indiana-hospital-fires-nurses-refusing-flu-shot/story?id=18116967



How is Hoover as a nurse boasting about refusing a vaccine? I wonder if any patients under her care have gotten sicker because of her?

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Reply Eight Hospital Employees Fired For Refusing Flu Vaccines (Original post)
alp227 Jan 2013 OP
Major Nikon Jan 2013 #1
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Response to alp227 (Original post)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 10:05 PM

1. I have no sympathy for them

The flu manages to kill people in the hospital with predictable regularity. Workers don't have the right to endanger other people.

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #1)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 10:14 PM

4. Am not a nurse and for years I didn't take the flu shot. But when I hit 62 I started taking

 

it because I have a heart condition and I don't want to get sick. Honestly since I have taken the shot am not getting sick. I might catch a cold from my grandchild but that is it. My husband won't get it because he said it make him sick.

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Response to southernyankeebelle (Reply #4)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 01:52 PM

103. Actually the CDC now recommends it for everyone, unless the person is allergic to the vaccine

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Response to still_one (Reply #103)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 01:53 PM

104. I think if you are in a medical field you should get it. Especially if they work in hospitals.

 

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Response to still_one (Reply #103)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 03:08 PM

110. They have a new vax for those allergic to eggs

And a nasal vax for those "allergic: to needles.

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #1)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 10:16 PM

5. Then no one should be allowed in the hospital without proof of having received a flu shot

for which ever flu has been targeted this year. This would include all personel, vendors, visitors etc. What about patients in emergency care? I know this is carrying my point to the extreme but....imho.

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Response to snappyturtle (Reply #5)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 10:37 PM

14. When I was working which was a long time ago

when flu season really got going, they restricted visitors to the wards. I don't know if they do so now.

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Response to Mojorabbit (Reply #14)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 10:28 PM

144. I am in hospitals regularly to see parishoners..

and YES, hospitals, nursing homes, public facilities for the elderly, (even homeless shelters)
restrict access to the weak and ill, particulary during flu season,
and often post a warning to those coming in who have symptoms.

This is more than simply individual 'freedom' but public health.
How can someone consider themself a 'healing professional' when they
might expose someone vulnerable to illness?

Most hospitals and facilities have ready access to antibacterial hand gel
even for healthy visitors and workers. But the flu can kill.

This is really a no-brainer: if you want to work with those who are sick/frail,
you need to do what you can keep them from getting sicker.

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Response to snappyturtle (Reply #5)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 10:42 PM

17. Actually some hospitals are banning children to try and keep it under control

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Response to cstanleytech (Reply #17)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 02:58 AM

51. That's Norovirus - winter vomiting virus

Not flu and it kills the frail.

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Response to intaglio (Reply #51)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 03:05 AM

52. My apologies that was the wrong link

http://www.kmov.com/news/health/Tennessee-hospital-bans-children-from-hospital-to-fight-flu-outbreak-183054711.html

Either way though it shows that hospitals do appear to be willing to take some rather drastic steps to try and curtail the flu from spreading.

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Response to snappyturtle (Reply #5)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 10:52 PM

20. That would be an excellent point for any of the 8 nurses' attorneys to explore.

If the hospital doesn't require everyone in its environment to get a flu shot, how can they justify firing 8 nurses who refuse to have one?

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Response to pacalo (Reply #20)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 01:53 PM

105. It's actually not that good a point. Nurses are hovering over patients 24/7. Visitors and doctors...

...aren't. Visitors may be restricted if they're sick and if they're not, their time with the patient is usually limited; and we don't know if doctors and orderlies and such may also have to get a flu vaccine. But in the end, this is somewhat of an apples and oranges argument. A nurse's job places them at the patients' bedsides more than any other job in the hospital. So why not ask them to get a flu shot to keep them healthy and reduce risk of contagion?

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Response to Moonwalk (Reply #105)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 03:14 PM

116. Exactly.

The red herrings are certainly swimming around on this thread.

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Response to Moonwalk (Reply #105)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 04:57 PM

122. I was looking at it from the nurses' point of view.

I understand the other side of it, of course, & if my employer told me I had to have one I would have unquestionably gotten a flu shot.

However, from my personal experience, a flu shot does not guarantee that one will not get the flu. I had never gotten the flu in my adult life until I got a flu shot; that's a fact.

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Response to pacalo (Reply #122)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 10:17 PM

140. Did you get a three-day flu or did you get a virus that laid you out flat for months...

...and nearly killed you? You do understand that the latter is the one the vaccine protects you against, not the three-day ickies, right?

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Response to Moonwalk (Reply #140)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 10:51 PM

146. The heavy congestion & achiness lasted two weeks.

I know my body; like it or not, the flu shot I got did not prevent me from getting the flu. I remember the timing well because I was caring for my mom & I couldn't afford to get sick. I had gotten the flu shot several weeks before I got the flu. It did not help me.

No amount of back & forth about this is going to change my experience.

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Response to pacalo (Reply #146)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 01:31 AM

187. Fine by me, but you should read up on the influenza virus of 1918. It's why we have...

...such vaccines and what happened to you is nothing like what happened to all those people who died, horribly, from that flu. You lived. Even if you got the flu from the vaccine--i.e. it gave you a mild version so you built up antibodies against a worst version--what could have happened to you if you'd gotten the actual thing would have been much, much, MUCH worse.

And whether you want to believe it or not, the fact remains that a single nurse who has such a flu, and doesn't know it yet because she's not showing the symptoms, could kill off a whole ward of vulnerable patients with their immune systems down or weakened. If your loved ones were on such a ward, what would you think of the nurse who refused that vaccine? Would even your experience make you sympathetic to her infecting and killing off your loved ones?

Read how that pandemic infected 500 million and killed off 50 million over two gruesome years and tell me again that the vaccine's not worth it.

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Response to Moonwalk (Reply #187)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 03:01 AM

196. I will read it.

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Response to Moonwalk (Reply #140)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 11:48 PM

154. Thats incorrect.

They guess which strains of flu will be active in any given season and formulate that years vaccine based on that criteria. I am an infection control nurse and recommend our nurses receive the vaccine, but I STRONGLY believe in a individuals right to refuse the vaccine. As long as they use proper infection control protocols no one should have to accept a flu vaccine.

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Response to snappyturtle (Reply #5)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 11:44 PM

37. It should include any employees who have access to patient rooms

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #37)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 12:24 AM

46. Absolutely...dietary aides, housekeeping, etc. nt

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #37)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 09:09 AM

77. It did include the entire 26,000? people who worked at that complex.

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Response to Sunlei (Reply #77)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 04:51 PM

121. wrong- from the article "Of the hospital's 26,000 employees statewide, 95 percent complied...

That means 1,300 employees did not comply, but only eight were fired."

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Response to Beaverhausen (Reply #121)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 02:56 AM

195. I bet the 1,300 finally complied rather than be fired.

good it was the entire 'Statewide' number of employees who are required to get the vaccine.

I work at the Houston med center and the vaccine is a requirement there aswell.

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #37)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 09:37 AM

81. It does

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Response to snappyturtle (Reply #5)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 01:54 PM

106. not even close. Do visitors deal with patients everyday? This is not only to protect the hospital

personal, it is also to protect the patients.

The CDC now recommends all children going to school have the vaccine unless they are allergic to it

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Response to snappyturtle (Reply #5)

Sun Jan 6, 2013, 04:10 PM

212. Idiotic

Nurses transit all areas of a hospital and are much more likely to spread the disease.

They also happen to be employed by the hospital.

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #1)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 10:35 PM

13. I agree as a retired nurse

People are at their most vulnerable while in the hospital. A lot are elderly and frail or with compromised immune systems. Part of being a nurse is doing no harm. If these nurses do not want to take the vaccine, they might be able to work doing medical paperwork in a setting where they will not put their charges at risk. They would have the potential to infect and possibly kill compromised patients.
I understand these nurses beliefs but those beliefs do not trump patient safety. I remember nurses who refused to care for HIV patients in the 80's because of their beliefs. No place for them on the ward. But that is just my own opinion. Old school.

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Response to Mojorabbit (Reply #13)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 08:39 PM

202. As a nurse, I agree with you.

My hospital instituted the same policy: get the flu shot, or lose your job. I had no problem with it. There are freaking immuno-compromised patients in the hospital, including patients like pediatric oncology patients, who are dependent on those who care for them to not introduce things like flu germs to them which could end up killing them. I had a coworker whose kid died on Christmas Eve about 8 years ago, from a common respiratory infection that most people would have easily fought off. Because he had leukemia, it killed him. He was 12.

I find it ironic how people talk a big game about thinking about the well being of their fellow man, and taking care of each other in society, etc., etc., with money and financial safety nets, but don't want to do the same thing by getting a flu shot. You're doing the same thing: protecting the well being of your fellow man, taking care of each other in society. It's one of those "it's not all about you anymore" kinds of lessons.

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #1)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 11:40 PM

32. Unvaccinated workers wear protective gear including masks

and are less of a threat than the family members visiting the person in hospital.
That's reality from the front line (my friends who are oncology nurses.)

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Response to Gormy Cuss (Reply #32)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 06:37 AM

65. The hospital has very little control or responsibility for family members

The flu is transmitted by people touching their face and then touching a door handle or some other item and then the reverse happening with the receiver. Certainly there are all sorts of controls that hospitals put in place to include mandatory hand washing and gloves, but in addition to those controls you have the vaccination of workers which is really just part of the overall strategy.

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #65)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 05:08 PM

123. I'm just reporting what my nurse friends have told me.

They can't be forced to take the vaccination (although most do) and if they opt out they must wear masks throughout flu season. They are of course required to follow the sanitization protocols including gloves and frequent handwashing.

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #1)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 06:23 AM

62. What would be wrong with the hospital giving the nurses a suspension?

When the flu epidemic resolves, they could come back to work. Without pay would also be acceptable during the suspension....the nurse could go work per diem somewhere during the suspension.

What is wrong with folks who want to sack people for the little things? Where is the leadership and compassion? Quality workers these days are disposable now?

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Response to FarPoint (Reply #62)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 12:25 PM

95. It's true that viruses and bacteria are little, wee things, but as Shakespeare said...

... of the sword thrust, "Tis not so deep as a well, nor so wide as a church door, but tis enough, 'twill serve. Ask for me tomorrow and you will find me a grave man."

Influenza kills.

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Response to Hekate (Reply #95)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 06:07 PM

125. You make no sense at all.

You can't possibly be giving a reply to my post. What you speak of is irrelevant.

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Response to FarPoint (Reply #125)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 07:10 PM

128. Quote: "What is wrong with folks who want to sack people for the little things?"

Little things? Like refusal to be vaccinated when you work in a hospital with desperately sick people?

By extension: Viruses are little things, too.

By extension: A sword thrust leaves a little hole.

By extension: A literary reference, in this case Shakespeare.

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Response to Hekate (Reply #128)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 07:56 PM

132. Nurses are more in danger from the patients than the other way around.

The flu shot does not protect against TB (of which I had a patient on TB precautions today), MRSA, VRE (I had pts with those today) and variations of VRE, C-Diff, Body Lice, Head Lice, etc. Nurses practice precautions--we wear masks, gowns, gloves and wash our hands a lot. But idiot family members bring newborns and toddlers into the hospital during flu season (saw 2 today). The flu will kill them and I bet you they did not have flu shots. Our influenza A patients --so long as that is the only bug, can be cohabited and they are in isolation for 7 days. Our nurses who do not get the flu shot are required to wear masks in every patient room.


And then there is the fact that

The flu that everyone is getting this year is not the same strain as the one in the vaccine.

Plus, many many patients refuse the flu and pneumonia vaccinations and they are offered them on admission. Those are the people sitting next to you in the Emergency Dept. and the Dr. office. They are the ones not wearing masks, coughing into their hands and touching the magazines, bathroom fixtures and vending machines.

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Response to eilen (Reply #132)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 11:36 PM

149. Fantastic points.

Thank you for the big picture....
What really offends me is that the nurses were terminated! No alternative options ..no flexibility just tossing them out like expired batteries. I don't like it one bit.

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #1)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 06:36 AM

64. I could not agree more!!

It really is ridiculous that folks refuse flu shots in the first place but when it comes to working in a hospital it is not only your life you are endangering but hundreds perhaps thousands of patients lives & the people they may come in contact with...All because of some made up excuse based on what, a Bronze Age text?

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #1)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 11:18 AM

87. +1

In a story she says that this is "her body"."

Well, yes, if you are not in contact with sick people with already a weaken immune response. And working at the critical care unit, of all places.

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #1)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 01:44 PM

101. I'm a retired

nurse and agree with you.

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #1)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 10:23 PM

141. Why do you hate people having autonomy over their bodies?

And I have bad reactions to flu and tetanus shots - usually they make it so I can't lift weights with my arms for 1-2 weeks from extreme soreness.

Cutting back my workouts makes me very angry.

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Response to SWTORFanatic (Reply #141)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 11:14 PM

148. Why do you hate old people and babies that get the flu while in the hospital?

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #148)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 12:31 AM

170. Disease is spread mostly by touch, not whether one is sick or not. And even then

I haven't had the flu in years.

And I would much rather have a nurse that washed his or her hands and didn't get a shot than a nurse who had the shot but didn't wash his or her hands. The latter is FAR more likely to spread the flu.

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Response to SWTORFanatic (Reply #170)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 01:13 AM

181. I'd rather have both

Just sayin'

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #181)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 01:22 AM

184. At what point are you willing to make a person sacrifice their bodily autonomy for

this?

The flu shot has a modest effect (at best) in reducing the flu virus in healthy adults.

And as I said in another post, I tend to have a very adverse reaction to intramuscular shots (I am allergic to some of the oils used), especially in the arm. For some reason for flu and tetanus shots they don't want to do a shot in the thigh which I seem to tolerate a lot better. Why should I have to take something that I am somewhat allergic to?

So like I said at what point would you be willingly to sacrifice someone's bodily autonomy for at best a modest reduction in spreading the flu? What if it required 8 shots? Or one extremely painful shot? Or drinking something that made a person vomit for 12 hours? Sorry playing devil's advocate on the last part.

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Response to SWTORFanatic (Reply #184)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 01:43 AM

188. The point at which it places other lives at danger isn't a bad place to start

The CDC also disagrees with you and pegs the effectiveness at 60-90% depending on what year and/or age group you want to talk about. In healthy adults (which I would expect most nurses to be) it is the most effective.
http://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/qa/vaccineeffect.htm

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #188)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 01:54 AM

189. Well, that is nonsenical. I place lives in danger every time I get in my

car. Should I stop driving? :p

Also data needs to be clarified - 60% of people who would get the flu otherwise are protected? Or 60% less people who got the vaccine got the flu vs people who did not get the vaccine?

Now, answer my question about shots please. Should I (if I was a nurse - I am not) be forced to inject myself with something I am allergic to?

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Response to SWTORFanatic (Reply #189)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 02:20 AM

191. And you are highly regulated in that activity

If you refused to get a license or you insisted on driving while under the influence of drugs or alcohol, the government has an obligation to compel you to stop driving in the interest of safety to others. So even your analogy doesn't prove that it's nonsensical.

As far as your questions on effectiveness go, I'll direct you to the CDC. They have volumes of information available online regarding vaccine effectiveness including the studies used to determine it.

The reaction you described is not an alergic reaction to the vaccine. It may make your arm hurt which makes you angry when you try to work out, but that is not necessarily an alergic reaction. The CDC reports that alergic reactions to the flu vaccine are rare, and there are two different types of the vaccine. The chances that someone would be allergic to both types are practically nil. I also don't have a copy of the hospital's written policy on the vaccine requirements and if any exceptions are allowed so I just don't see the point in arguing your question.

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #191)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 02:33 AM

193. No, it is more sore than "makes me angry when I try to work out" - it is sore enough

to make me not able to work out with my arm - at all. And it is not caused by the needle inside my arm (the soreness takes awhile to develop) For 1-2 weeks. I would actually have trouble using my arm if I had to in a life or death situation I think as well (ie having to swim or something). I can still say - drive with it but it hurts.

And this coming from someone who has torn her rotator cuff so I know what arm/shoulder soreness is. The shot is no bueno for me. I might be willing to try a shot that uses a different preparation but still, I wouldn't want to be sore if I happen to be allergic to both types. And I am not allergic to eggs. I think it may be the oil they use as a preservative / solution used instead (I had a bad reaction to a tetanus shot as well).

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Response to SWTORFanatic (Reply #193)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 02:42 AM

194. What you are describing sounds much more like a side effect reaction

Sometimes they are more severe in some than others. There is also a nasal version of the vaccine which doesn't involve a shot at all.

People die from acquiring the flu while in hospitals. Management of those hospitals are financially and morally responsible for mitigating this. We require kids to be vaccinated to attend public schools. Requiring nurses to be vaccinated in the interest of safety to patients is not out of line.

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Response to SWTORFanatic (Reply #141)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 11:42 PM

150. I wonder if the nasal vaccine would be better for you. People coming to work sick makes me

very angry.

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Response to uppityperson (Reply #150)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 12:26 AM

167. I haven't been sick in years :)

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #1)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 12:04 AM

157. Newsflash...

I promise you, healthcare workers that don't wash their hands between every patient pose a far greater threat to individuals than possible flu exposure.

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Response to FlowerGurl (Reply #157)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 12:10 AM

162. That goes hand in hand (pardon the pun) with possible flu exposure

I think most (if not all) hospitals are already going to have rules about employees washing their hands between patients. I also suspect that if employees were insubordinate regarding those rules, they could also face termination. So it's not a matter of choosing one or the other. Both are important.

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #162)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 12:49 AM

175. Hand washing Compliance

They have done study after study, and the fact of the matter is they don't wash their hands appropriately. It's easy to check compliance on flu vaccines, not so with hand washing. I used hand washing as a point of reference, there are multiple issues more pressing than vaccination acceptance. Read the studies on the germs that are present on physicians ties.

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Response to FlowerGurl (Reply #175)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 01:11 AM

180. I'm not disputing this

You keep trying to turn this into an issue of what is more important. It doesn't really matter which part is more important. If the employee refuses to comply with any part of the policy, they are, by definition, insubordinate which is a fireable offense in pretty much any occupation. Regardless of how much you want to minimize the importance of immunization of hospital employees, the practice clearly saves lives no matter how important any other practice is. So the very best you have is a false dichotomy which is a very poor defense of those employees.

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Response to FlowerGurl (Reply #157)

Sun Jan 6, 2013, 04:14 PM

213. Newsflash #2

They are required to wash hands between patients and required to get flu shots.

What exactly is your point?

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Response to alp227 (Original post)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 10:10 PM

2. The noose is rapidly closing in on the collective neck of health freedom in America,

Freedom to decide what to put in their own body is gone if they want to work

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Response to lunasun (Reply #2)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 10:14 PM

3. Mary Mallon had the same employment problems. nt

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Response to msanthrope (Reply #3)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 10:32 PM

11. I see what you did there.

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Response to alphafemale (Reply #11)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 11:04 PM

22. Subtle...eh? nt

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Response to msanthrope (Reply #3)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 10:28 PM

143. If Mary had washed her hands (or better, washed her hands and wore gloves)

she would not have infected anyone.

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Response to SWTORFanatic (Reply #143)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 12:01 AM

156. "Her body, her choice" as some people say

She chose not to. She was given options and refused those.

She spent her life in quarantine.

She made her choice. So did these nurses.

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Response to lunasun (Reply #2)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 10:40 PM

15. The person who makes your sandwich should have the freedom to not wash their hands.

then...obviously. They should be able to cough all over your plate. Cough into an elbow?

"Help! I'm being oppressed!!!"


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Response to alphafemale (Reply #15)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 04:43 AM

56. The phlegm costs extra, like pesto mayonnaise.

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Response to lunasun (Reply #2)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 01:12 AM

47. Well don't join the military

You have no choice in the matter. They line you up, march you to the clinic, one tech has a big wad of alcohol soaked cotton to swab your shoulder and the next tech has the injection gun. Don't move while he is shooting you, it will leave a nasty cut behind.

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Response to Peregrine (Reply #47)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 02:50 PM

109. I feel for the Nurses...but

 

I feel for the nurses, but I understand that some time you have to do things in the line of work you may not want to do.

I was forced to get a flu shot every year when I was in the military. I hated it, delayed it as long as possible, but when the O-6 gave me the direct order,…off I went to took the shot.



Macoy

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Response to lunasun (Reply #2)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 04:41 AM

55. Nobody is hampering their freedom to decide

However their decision puts vulnerable people under their direct care at risk. Thus they should no longer be providing care for those people - i.e., lose their jobs.

Yes, if you don't want to accept a vaccine for a potentially lethal and very common virus, while you are providing care to children, the elderly, people on immune-suppressants or with otherwise compromised immune systems... you should be out of work. You don't expect hte motherfucker who doesn't wash after he wipes to keep his job of making food for you, right? Same here, this is a requirement of the job.

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Response to lunasun (Reply #2)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 08:12 AM

68. Yes, what will be next?

This has nothing to do with care and concern for the sick and infirm it's the hospital protecting it's rear end in the event of lawsuits. Some here mentioned people having the freedom to not wash their hands to the freedom of not being mandated to take in a man made anti viral medication into YOUR body, that's BS. As if having the shot would stop someone with poor habits and hygiene or complete disregard for others from causing an outbreak of who knows what. I want the liberal back in liberal.

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Response to Puzzledtraveller (Reply #68)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 03:26 PM

117. Some people say ...

the stupidest things.

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Response to lunasun (Reply #2)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 08:23 AM

69. Freedom...

... to risk other people's lives? Nurses with the flu could kill hundreds of patients.

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Response to Nitram (Reply #69)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 08:42 AM

72. So they stay home, as they would if they had a cold or any other communicable illness.

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Response to Puzzledtraveller (Reply #72)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 09:18 AM

79. most virus including the flu are contagious before symptoms.

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Response to Sunlei (Reply #79)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 07:34 PM

129. And getting a shot is no

guarantee that one will not "carry" the virus unwittingly whether they have taken the vaccine or not. Too many have become so dependent upon the concept of pharmaceuticals protecting them from all dangers. Makes for a good sales pitch.

Just because you wash your hands will not guarantee that you will not get sick from a cold or whatever... a flu vaccine will not guarantee that one will not get the flu nor will it guarantee that one will not pass on the virus. A red herring. I have never taken a flu shot nor will I ever do so willingly, job or not. And what comes next in allowing your employer to command you comply with mandates that should be a personal choice?? This smells of a control freak issue that seems to rile up a lot of people with incomplete information.

Nurses are trained in health issues and know that they can pass on pathogens even in the most antiseptic environment. If they aren't aware of that, they haven't been properly trained and educated.

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Response to 2naSalit (Reply #129)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 10:23 PM

142. You Are Raining

on the outrage parade with your nasty facts.

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Response to RobinA (Reply #142)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 06:46 PM

199. Well darn it all to kingdom come!

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Response to Nitram (Reply #69)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 11:35 AM

88. The flu shot is not a guarantee that you're not going to get the flu

and if you don't take the flu shot, it doesn't mean that you are going to get it

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Response to Nitram (Reply #69)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 06:15 PM

126. So...this flu shot is a guarantee?

Why do the nurse need to be fired? No real reason at all. They could be placed on suspenion until the flu epidemic passes.

Termination of ones job for declining a medication! Awful management decision.

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Response to lunasun (Reply #2)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 08:04 PM

134. No one is forcing her to work there. She is free to borrow $20k from her parents and

start up a business empire like all the other libertarians in America.

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Response to alp227 (Original post)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 10:17 PM

6. How stupid.

A nurse who refuses the flu shot shouldn't be working with critically ill people.

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Response to alp227 (Original post)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 10:19 PM

7. Daughter says they must take vaccine or wear masks.

At least they have a choice. I personally will never take the stuff.

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Response to efhmc (Reply #7)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 11:42 PM

34. Yes, those who say no to the vaccine must wear protective clothing.

They are less likely to be the vector of transmission than family members who visit.

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Response to alp227 (Original post)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 10:19 PM

8. Medical professionals should know that they cannot get the flu from a flu shot

But they can endanger their patients by getting the flu. Sorry, I wouldn't want to get medical treatment from someone who doesn't understand that. If you have an egg allergy or have had Guillain-Barre, you get pass. Otherwise, get your shot or go home.

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Response to Danmel (Reply #8)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 10:29 PM

10. I wish the obviously sick grocery packer who packed my groceries this evening

had stayed home. Sick people need to stay home....that includes kids. imho

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Response to snappyturtle (Reply #10)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 11:12 PM

26. I'm sure the sick grocery packer would have liked to have stayed home too..

but if his/her "health" plan is like mine even if there is sick pay, one must be out ill for three days and have a note from a doctor in order to claim it and it's subject to management approval. Missing even one or two days of work in that kind of job can be devastating financially.

In a good and just world, one would be able to stay home and get well when one is ill.

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Response to AmyDeLune (Reply #26)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 11:59 PM

43. It can be devastating to me too if I miss 3 days of work due to contact with her. Where

does it end? She could have made many sick this evening. I should complain to the grocery store, I guess.

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Response to snappyturtle (Reply #43)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 03:27 AM

54. Where does it end?..

It doesn't, because if someone misses days from work they are more likely to be fired, and become someone elses problem. This country is so fucked up.

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Response to snappyturtle (Reply #43)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 08:25 AM

70. This is all speculation and assumption.

The nurse does not have the flu....She has not taken the flu shot in many years if ever.....maybe she just doesn't get the flu. Firing someone because they "could" get sick....this is not the American way. There are other options besides job termination.

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Response to FarPoint (Reply #70)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 11:43 AM

89. And the assumption that if you get a flu shot you will not get the flu!!!!

Firing someone because they "could" get sick...
...if you don't take the flu shot, it doesn't mean that you are going to get the flu.....assumptions indeed.


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Response to snappyturtle (Reply #43)


Response to Sherman A1 (Reply #119)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 05:45 PM

124. Wear a mask. (?)

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Response to snappyturtle (Reply #124)


Response to Sherman A1 (Reply #130)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 08:02 PM

133. That is ridiculous

Of course people can wear a mask. If I have the sniffles, I wear a mask.

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Response to eilen (Reply #133)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 11:45 PM

153. Management may not allow her to work even with a mask and masks only work for a short

period of time. Switching every 15 min is a good idea since they don't typically work much longer than that. At least not the cheap/inexpensive ones that are typically provided.

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Response to uppityperson (Reply #153)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 11:38 AM

223. Well, I hope the masks work for a long time

Since I am fit tested every year for them and have to spend good amounts of time in TB and Influenza A isolation rooms.

They also do not require visitors to prove inoculation status when they sign in.

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Response to eilen (Reply #223)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 12:46 PM

224. Some do. The ordinary cheap ones do not though.

It depends on the type. If you are fit tested, then those are good ones. The non-fit ones do not do very good. You are ok with those.

The cheap non-tested ones are more along the line of hair nets on food service workers where they hold in long hair but dandruff gets through.

I worked with a youngster on a vent at home and I researched masks when they wanted me to come in when I had influenza just wear a mask. The loose, non-fitting, cheap ones. There are good ones that do work but the loose non-fitting ones pretty much stop after about 15 minutes. They will help you from breathing in large airborne debris and blowing out spittle, but that is about all.

They didn't want to spring for decent fitted ones so I refused to go in. I mean, what? Kid on a vent? Influenza?

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Response to eilen (Reply #133)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 04:14 AM

198. Ever worked in a grocery store?

One suspects not. But I yield to your superior knowledge on all topics. This conversation has ended.

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Response to snappyturtle (Reply #10)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 12:07 AM

160. But if they stay home, the do not get paid.

 

They really have no choice but show up at work. If they call in sick, they could find themselves without a job.
This is another place where Single Payer, Universal Health Care would do wonders.

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Response to snappyturtle (Reply #10)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 12:09 AM

161. +1000 - when I taught 6th grade, I got sick every other week b/c the kids were sent to school sick

Finally after the 5th bout of illness I said to the principal, "Would you please send a letter home asking parents to keep their sick kids at home so the rest of us don't get sick?"

She did it, too.

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Response to Danmel (Reply #8)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 12:16 AM

164. Do some information seeking before you pass judgment.

There are multiple reasons someone would not want to receive a flu shot. Yes, the flu vaccine is formulated from an inactive virus and will not cause the flu. Before you talk out of your ass about a subject you have not investigated, you might want to do some homework prior to passing judgment on others.

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Response to alp227 (Original post)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 10:24 PM

9. Lying there in the hospital in a weakened state, immune system compromised, infant or oldster...

... the last thing in the world you need is a case of influenza from a health care (doctor, nurse, aide) worker too stupid to understand science. Do they also think handwashing is optional?

Nurse Ethel Hoover worked in the critical care unit. I can't even think of words strong enough to express my disgust, except these two: You're Fired.

I have no sympathy for the eight employees who got fired. None.

Hekate

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Response to Hekate (Reply #9)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 06:04 AM

59. Critical Care Unit

Exactly.

She should have it working in the Sports med Clinic, but in Critical Care? Get it or leave.

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Response to Hekate (Reply #9)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 12:11 PM

91. Science??

There is no good science that says flu shots reduce mortality. It's rarely clear that someone actually HAS the flu or some other virus, and the number of deaths from flu are generally based on conjecture. This whole flu shot nonsense is based on what seems intuitively like it should be the case, maybe. Someday it might prove not to be nonsense, if some good research were to be done, but thus there hasn't been a lot of study and what good studies have been done have not shown any significant effect, mortality-wise.

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Response to RobinA (Reply #91)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 12:16 PM

92. Oh, please. A century of hard research is not enough for you?

Rather than argue with you, I simply recommend The Great Influenza by John M. Barry, particulars in my other post in this thread.

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Response to Hekate (Reply #92)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 02:31 PM

107. I've Read That Book

It has nothing to do with flu vaccination and its alleged mortality-limiting properties. There simply is no century of hard evidence showing that the flu vaccine has an effect on mortality. I don't even believe that the flu vax is that old. If you read that book, you will have noted that most of the people who died in that epidemic died of pneumonia secondary to the flu.

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Response to RobinA (Reply #107)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 02:49 PM

108. Well you can lead a horse to water...

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Response to alp227 (Original post)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 10:33 PM

12. A large portion of people in our State got the shot and still got the flu. The flu

killed my mother last year while she was in skilled care after suffering a stroke. The five star rated facility allowed the staff to show up with snot running down their noses. Many of those people had flu shots and it did not matter and they also felt pressured to come to work.
Bottom line in my opinion, for whatever it is worth, is that if a person doesn't want the shot fine. It is their body. If a person, with shot or not shows up sick, they should either be sent home or fired if they do not comply.
Right now my father is in Assisted Living, had the flu shot and is sick as hell and on antibiotics.

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Response to glinda (Reply #12)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 10:40 PM

16. It takes a while for the flu shot to build up the immunity. If you have the shot and

get exposed before it builds up you can get the flu. I know here in Fl, flu season started over a month early. My husband is a family doc and he is slammed like he has not seen in years with people with the flu. People were not able to get the shot early enough. I hope your Pop will be ok.

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Response to Mojorabbit (Reply #16)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 11:34 PM

30. He got it way way early.

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Response to Mojorabbit (Reply #16)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 11:38 PM

31. Thanks. He has a chest infection and so far no pneumonia. Knock on wood.

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Response to glinda (Reply #31)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 11:48 PM

39. I'll be sending him the good vibes.

I hope he heals quickly and thoroughly.

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Response to Mojorabbit (Reply #39)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 11:50 PM

41. Thanks! He needs it!

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Response to Mojorabbit (Reply #16)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 12:18 AM

45. I have an ER DOC friend on Chicago's south side.

He says the same thing. They are swamped with flu patients.

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Response to glinda (Reply #12)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 11:04 PM

23. Three years ago I got the flu after getting a flu shot for the first time.

I've had a strong immune system all my life & hadn't had the flu since I was a kid, but I decided to get one that year because I was one of my mom's main caretakers. Go figure.

Best wishes for your dad, glinda.



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Response to glinda (Reply #12)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 11:09 PM

25. The "3-day flu" and influenza are not the same virus, according to my doctor

Ever since I got really sick one year after getting influenza, I get my flu shots.

This year, a couple of months after the shot, I got a two-or-three-day flu and ended up with a sinus infection, at which point I got antibiotics from my doc. That was when we had that conversation, because he wanted to vaccinate me right then and I told him I already was. He pointed out that there are different viruses, but the vaccine is only made for the most dangerous one: influenza.

I'm going with that.

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Response to Hekate (Reply #25)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 11:28 PM

29. You are absolutely correct.........

I had influenza back in 1994. I remember it started with a fever. I laid down on the couch & didn't get up for 3 days. Every bone in my body hurt and my temperature was near 102. I had all the cold symptoms, headache, sneezing, coughing. I was sick for 2 months. I had no health coverage or a doctor. It developed into pneumonia and finally got myself to a clinic. I was sick from January to March.

I get a flu shot every year, I refuse to ever be that sick again. People I think, don't really understand the difference between a virus and influenza.

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Response to mrmpa (Reply #29)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 11:41 PM

33. I got the so-called "Hong Kong Flu" in December, 1968

when I was in college. I thought I was going to have to get better in order to die, and I never want to be that sick again. And I was only 19 - now, it would probably kill me. So I get flu shots every year. And I can't imagine how a nurse who works in a hospital can justify refusing to get one.

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Response to mrmpa (Reply #29)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 11:46 PM

38. You are right: that is classic influenza and it can kill. I'm currently reading...

The Great Influenza: The story of the deadliest pandemic in history, with a new Afterward on H1N1 (Swine) Flu. By John M. Barry.

This of course refers to the one that hit in 1918 and killed between 50 million and 100 million people worldwide. (pg. 4)

"Influenza killed more people in a year than the Black Death of the Middle Ages killed in a century; it killed more people in twenty-four weeks than AIDS has killed in twenty-four years." (pg. 5)

The influenza virus mutates very rapidly, which is why every year's new vaccine is a "best guess" about the direction of the mutation from the previous year. When public health scientists today start worrying about influenza viruses that jump from animal to human hosts, it's because the 1918 pandemic was caused by a transmission from swine to humans too.

The book is a fascinating non-fiction read in public health history/science history.

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Response to Hekate (Reply #38)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 11:49 PM

40. It is an amazing book, isn't it? nt

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Response to Hekate (Reply #38)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 06:08 AM

61. That's a great book

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Response to mrmpa (Reply #29)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 06:07 AM

60. 100% correct

There is a huge difference between the Flu and a virus and/or really bad cold. I've had a flu shot every since I had the Flu really badly in the late 90's/ Like you, it took me almost two months to get my strength back and feel normal.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #60)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 06:33 AM

63. influenza is caused by a VIRUS

the common cold is also caused by a VIRUS. The etiologic viruses are biomolecularly heterogeneous but to say there is a huge difference between the Flu, a virus and /or a really bad cold is misleading as they are all viruses.

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Response to Carolina (Reply #63)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 07:01 AM

67. I know that

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #60)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 12:30 AM

168. I had a friend die of swine flu

She was 34. I now get a flu shot.

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Response to Hekate (Reply #25)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 11:48 PM

155. If you don't cough for a couple weeks, it probably was not influenza

I am sure most everyone has hear that hacking barking harsh cough that people do after they have been sick. "Oh, it's just bronchitis". Yes, now it is an inflammation of your bronchial tubes but it is most likely ALSO the aftermath of influenza.

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Response to glinda (Reply #12)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 11:23 PM

28. No. They already had the flu virus ...

...or they caught some other virus, or it was a less common strain not included in the shot. But for those vaccinated in time, it confers complete immunity for the included strains. It contains no live virus, but only viral detritus, making it impossible to get the flu from the shot.

Antibiotics are for a bacterial infection. It has no effect on any virus.

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Response to alp227 (Original post)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 10:48 PM

18. I have a right to be the next typhoid Mary!



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Response to alp227 (Original post)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 10:48 PM

19. Efficacy of current flu vaccines questioned

http://www.cbc.ca/news/health/story/2012/10/15/flu-vaccine-science-questioned.html

The report, titled Comprehensive Influenza Vaccine Initiative, was written by public health experts at the Center for Infectious Diseases Research and Policy at the University of Minnesota.

The authors strongly advocate for major investments to develop new flu vaccines but say in the meantime, people should continue to use the currently available shots.

It questions many of the dogmas that are accepted about flu vaccine, including that vaccinating children will protect the elderly, who don't mount a good immune response to flu vaccine.

As well, it says there is no evidence to support the idea that flu vaccine is more effective in years when the strains included in the shot are a good match for those circulating in nature.

The 160-page report is the result of a three-year investigation into the science supporting flu vaccine efficacy and safety and the decision-making processes that led to the U.S. policy to recommend all Americans get a flu shot every year.

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Response to Celebration (Reply #19)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 12:19 PM

93. Outrage Killer!!!

Pointy-headed science geek! Fact disseminator!

Thanks for this link.

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Response to alp227 (Original post)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 11:01 PM

21. What religion lets you be a nurse but not take a shot?

None that I know of.

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Response to alp227 (Original post)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 11:07 PM

24. The problem for the Hospital is this nurse was permitted NOT to take the vaccine for 21 years.

Now, the employer requires her to take the vaccine? While Indiana is still a state with the at will doctrine of employment (an employer can terminate an employee for any reason or no reason except if the reason is illegal OR the employee has a contract that states otherwise, i.e. a Union).

Given the facts in this case, the Nurse can be terminated, but the issue is this willful misconduct AND if it is does she has just cause or necessitous and compelling reason to refuse to take the Vaccine? I bring that up, for that is the test for Unemployment Compensation. Refusal to get a Vaccine may be willful misconduct (as that term is used in unemployment law, which means anything NOT in the best interest of the Employer) but does she have a necessitous and compelling reason for her conduct?

Under Unemployment Compensation laws in many states (I practice in Pennsylvania) any employee can quit they job, or even do "Willful Misconduct" (as that has been defined by the Courts) if the employee has a "Necessitous and Compelling reason" for her action.

The First question in regard to Unemployment Compensation, is the demand of the Employer reasonable given that the Employer has made no such demand for 21 years? If the demand is NOT reasonable, then it is NOT "Willful Misconduct" to refuse to take the vaccine and the Nurse is eligible for Unemployment Compensation.

The second question, which we get to only if it is first determined that the demand that the employee take the vaccine was reasonable, does the Employee has a "necessitous and compelling reason" to say NO? If the reason she gave is found to be "necessitous and compelling" then she wins Unemployment Compensation.

Please note, the above is harder then it sounds. Unemployment Compensation Hearing Officers are noted for being pro Employer. i.e tends to find most demands by employers reasonable, and finds most reasons employees give to NOT following those demand NOT "necessitous and compelling".

On the other hand, they are KNOWN side affects of taking such a Vaccine. I once took one in the 1980s that left be shriving in a goose down sleeping bag (I was on maneuvers the day I was given the Vaccine). It was NOT the cold temperature it was the vaccine (and that shot many others in my unit reported the same side affect). They are problems with these Vaccines and that may be enough for an Unemployment Hearing Officer to rule the Nurse did have a "necessitous and compelling" to refuse to take the vaccine.

Given that she is 61 years of age, she can retire on Social Security at age 62 (But at a reduce level due to the early retirement). If she wins her Unemployment, which has been extended she may be on unemployment for up to two year, which is long after she turns 62. If she loses her unemployment, she has no income until she turns 62 and then she can get on Social Security. Thus she is the right age to fight her employer over this issue (Was this a reasonable demand by her employer AND is her fears of reaction to the Vaccine justify her refusal to take the Vaccine).

Just a comment, that this is only the start of this dispute, it will linger for another six months or so.

Reading the article in more detail, I notice the following sentence:

That means 1,300 employees did not comply, but only eight were fired


In unemployment compensation cases, that can be a fatal flaw against the Employer. It is NOT reasonable to have some employers terminated FOR not following a policy, while others are retained who also violated that policy. If this occurred the Employer has to answer to why the difference in treatment? If the response is NOT satisfactory, then the Employee win Unemployment Compensation for she then did NOT commit "Willful Misconduct" for the actions of the Employer in NOT terminating the other employees shows that the conduct was NOT "Willful Misconduct" (Double negatives are common in Unemployment Compensation decisions).

This can also be grounds for an age discrimination claim, if the other 1300 NOT fired employees tend to be younger then the nurses fired. It may be an sex discrimination if most of the people NOT fired were males. Such a case may take years to go through the courts, unlike Unemployment Compensation cases which tend to be resolved within 3-6 months (The courts know, when it comes to Unemployment Compensation it is better to get it TODAY, then two years from Today, thus expedited handling of these cases are routine)

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Response to happyslug (Reply #24)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 06:39 AM

66. Thanks for this information

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Response to happyslug (Reply #24)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 03:18 AM

197. I wouldn't expect any civil rights case to go very far

Around 1,300 employees may have not complied, but that doesn't tell the whole story. There was apparently a process whereby an employee could pursue an exception to the policy. So it's entirely possible that 1292 of them received exceptions while 8 did not. So long as the hospital's policy wasn't discriminatory any discrimination case would have an uphil battle. In civil rights cases it is not enough to show the possibility of discrimination. One must demonstrate reasonable probability of discrimination. In order to do that you have to meet the prima facia requirements (which by themselves aren't easy) and that's just to procede with the case without it being dropped.

It's also entirely possible that the hospital could have cared less whether the employees filed for and obtained unemployment compensation. If they had a compelling reason to reduce the number of influenza deaths of patients, any monetary consideration of unemployment may have been greatly outweighed by the economic ramifications of not aggressively enforcing their policy.

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Response to alp227 (Original post)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 11:21 PM

27. I had influenza once

- the actual influenza not the stomach upset we often call "flu". Outside of when I had measles (yes, I'm so old there was no vaccine then) it was the sickest I've ever been.

Once was all it took. I've gotten the flu shot ever since.

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Response to alp227 (Original post)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 11:42 PM

35. The flu VIRUS doesn't understand democracy....

K&R

...or human rights, personal rights, group rights, or the Bill of Rights. The only right it knows is the right to enter your body and make you very very ill. And no antibiotic can cure it. Antibiotics can handle bacterial infections, but not viral influenza alone. Now if you have a high white cell count and a fever with the flu, yes, the Dr will prescribe antibiotics to help your body fight off the bacterial infection and bring your fever down. The flu just has to run it's course. A flu shot helps your immune system fight off the flu bug if you are exposed to it. If you have a compromised immune system, i.e. if you are very young or old or very susceptible to every bug that comes along, get a flu shot. I'm "getting" old, and I have asthma, so I get a flu shot AND a pneumonia shot every year. When I was a kid and the flu vaccine was invented, my Mamma marched all of us kids to the Dr every fall and got a flu shot. So if it was going to kill you, either myself or one of my 4 siblings would have died long ago. But for the baby, we are all over 60, and all still kicking.

Also, if you end up in the hospital these days, one of the first questions they ask you in the ER is if you have had a flu shot. After they get you squared away and diagnosed, they will impress you to let them give you the vaccination. And you should say yes. If you say no, they will probably slap you in isolation. That's where everyone has to wash up and suit up in a sterile suit in an outer room. Sometimes they won't let your family come in if you're in isoslation. That's no fun, so just say yes, give me the vaccination.

If you are anywhere near that Indiana hospital, never worry about being admitted there. They truly know what they are doing there.
And if you haven't had a flu shot, get one. Blah, blah, blah...I speak the truth!

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Response to ReRe (Reply #35)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 11:55 PM

42. Very well said. The last bout of influenza I had I ended up with pneumonitis...

... and a wheeze you could hear across the room. Damn. My doc prescribed some new drug that was not in the formulary for my insurance company at the time, and told me to come back as soon as I was well and get a pneumonia vaccination as well.

I don't mess around with it any more. When I was young -- say up to my early 40s -- my immune system was very good and I never caught stuff like that. Now I am 65 and have asthma and a bunch of other crap that goes with aging.

I do not mess around with this.

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Response to alp227 (Original post)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 11:44 PM

36. my mom has advanced Alzheimer's & home health aides coming & going 24/7, along with me who works

in several schools (germ factories) and lives with mom. She has never been sick even though at times we have been with her while we're sick. It does not happen often but it's happened a few times in the 4 yrs. mom has had AD. One time I walked in from work and it was obvious the helper was sick and I sent her home; she was sick for 10 days with flu. Mom didn't get it. Another time I was on duty for part of a day while I had a 2-day stomach bug. I had to be close to mom to make sure she wouldn't stand up alone (she's a fall risk) but meanwhile I was vomiting while sitting near her. Mom has never gotten sick from these incidents. There have also been a couple of helpers who came in with colds, and mom didn't get those, either. We wash our hands a lot.

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Response to wordpix (Reply #36)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 12:17 AM

44. You are very lucky

Your Mamma probably has allot of antibodies built up in her body which fight off all those bugs. I salute you for taking such good care of her. But never say never. You can pick up some masks at any drug or most grocery stores (if the grocer has a pharmacy). Also surgical/plastic gloves. Just in case? Keep on keeping on... I took care of my Mamma the last 2 years of her life, but thank goodness, she didn't suffer from AD. I will never regret spending those two years with her. Anyway, salute!

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Response to ReRe (Reply #44)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 12:07 AM

159. we use the gloves but the masks are a great idea - they'd probably scare her, though

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Response to wordpix (Reply #159)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 12:11 AM

163. Yeah, that might not be a good idea, i.e. the mask. Don't do mask if it scares her.

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Response to wordpix (Reply #36)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 08:57 AM

76. similar to my Mom at home /w family care 24/7. Was routine, her Dr. always gave the flu vaccine.

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Response to Sunlei (Reply #76)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 12:05 AM

158. I haven't taken mom for flu vaccine, and she hasn't had flu for 5 yrs. with Alzheimer's

or before that.

She has an amazing immune system. She has never had a cold, sore throat, headache or sick stomach that I know of. Maybe it's the vodka she used to drink She is now age 87 1/2, frail due to the AD and old age but still in good health otherwise.

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Response to wordpix (Reply #158)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 02:12 AM

190. same with my Mom never sick except for that horrid Alzheimers.

Her husband was primary caretaker for about 6 years as the Alz. progressed. Then Dad passed away very sudden and we 'kids' became caretakers. I understand what you are going through

Our healthcare system makes it so difficult, I remember my Dad spending hours on the phone. My Dad had Moms care set-up (straight medicare as far as I understood) helper aids would come in the home daily for about 4 hours and her Doctor would do the routine checkup as a house call.

We kept our Mom in her home untill the end of course someone had to always be with her 24/7. Alzheimers sucks, I pray someone finds a cure someday.

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Response to alp227 (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 01:39 AM

48. you can get the flu from the

Modified live version of the vaccine - I don't remember which one that is. It will also contribute to accumulated aluminum in your body, adding more for each shot.

The flu vaccine started being required for more groups after the manufacturers threatened to stop making it because they weren't making enough money on it - they kept having to throw the extras away in years that weren't bad flu years. Then suddenly everyone is recommended to get it, and more groups required.

As with most of this stuff, the flu vaccine is about money.

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Response to Mona (Reply #48)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 10:55 AM

86. More vaccine myth repeated - please provide sources

Here are the sources I found about your claims:

5 myths about the flu
Updated 11/15/2010
By Liz Szabo, USA TODAY
In a new survey by Consumer Reports, only 30% of respondents were "very confident" that this year's flu shot is safe.

Myth 1: The flu shot causes the flu.
The viruses in the flu shot are dead, so they can't give people the flu, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. Its most common side effect is soreness in the arm.
FluMist nasal spray contains weakened viruses, so they don't cause severe, flu-like symptoms, either. Side effects in children can include a runny nose, wheezing and headache.

Myth 5: Flu shots contain methyl mercury and other toxic chemicals.
Although there's no evidence that the ethyl mercury-based preservative thimerosal causes harm, vaccine makers responded to public concerns in 2001 and stopped using it in most vaccines.

There's also no data to prove that thimerosal causes autism, Offit says. In fact, seven studies now refute that idea.

Gunter notes that flu shots don't use aluminum, which is used in other vaccines as an "adjuvant" to stimulate a stronger immune response.

More:http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/yourlife/health/medical/coldflu/2010-11-15-myths-flu_N.htm


In case USA Today is not a sufficient expert for you, here are FDA and CDC source:

What kinds of flu vaccines are available?

There are two types of vaccines:

The “flu shot” — an inactivated vaccine (containing killed virus) that is given with a needle, usually in the arm. The flu shot is approved for use in people older than 6 months, including healthy people and people with chronic medical conditions.

There are three different flu shots available:
a regular flu shot approved for people ages 6 months and older
a high-dose flu shot approved for people 65 and older, and
an intradermal flu shot approved for people 18 to 64 years of age.

The nasal-spray flu vaccine — a vaccine made with live, weakened flu viruses that is given as a nasal spray (sometimes called LAIV for “Live Attenuated Influenza Vaccine”). The viruses in the nasal spray vaccine do not cause the flu. LAIV is approved for use in healthy* people 2 through 49 years of age who are not pregnant.

Seasonal flu vaccines protect against the three influenza viruses (trivalent) that research indicates will be most common during the upcoming season. The viruses in the vaccine can change each year based on international surveillance and scientists’ estimations about which types and strains of viruses will circulate in a given year. While some manufacturers are planning to produce a quadrivalent (four component) vaccine in the future, quadrivalent vaccines are not expected to be available for the 2012-2013 season.

About 2 weeks after vaccination, antibodies that provide protection against the influenza viruses in the vaccine develop in the body.
http://www.cdc.gov/flu/protect/keyfacts.htm


Who should not be vaccinated with the nasal-spray flu vaccine LAIV (FluMist®)?
People less than 2 years of age
People 50 years of age and over
People with a medical condition that places them at high risk for complications from influenza, including those with chronic heart or lung disease, such as asthma or reactive airways disease; people with medical conditions such as diabetes or kidney failure; or people with illnesses that weaken the immune system, or who take medications that can weaken the immune system.
Children < 5 years old with a history of recurrent wheezing
Children or adolescents receiving aspirin
Pregnant women
People who have a severe allergy to chicken eggs or who are allergic to any of the nasal spray vaccine components.
People with a history of Guillain–Barré Syndrome (a severe paralytic illness, also called GBS) that occurred after receiving influenza vaccine and who are not at risk for severe illness from influenza should generally not receive vaccine. Tell your doctor if you ever had Guillain-Barré Syndrome. Your doctor will help you decide whether the vaccine is recommended for you.
Does the nasal-spray flu vaccine LAIV (FluMist®) contain thimerosal?
No, the nasal-spray flu vaccine LAIV (FluMist®) does not contain thimerosal or any other preservative.
Can the nasal spray flu vaccine give you the flu?
Unlike the flu shot, the nasal spray flu vaccine does contain live viruses. However, the viruses are attenuated (weakened) and cannot cause flu illness. The weakened viruses are cold-adapted, which means they are designed to only cause infection at the cooler temperatures found within the nose. The viruses cannot infect the lungs or other areas where warmer temperatures exist. Some children and young adults 2-17 years of age have reported experiencing mild reactions after receiving nasal spray flu vaccine, including runny nose, nasal congestion or cough, chills, tiredness/weakness, sore throat and headache. Some adults 18-49 years of age have reported runny nose or nasal congestion, cough, chills, tiredness/weakness, sore throat and headache. These side effects are mild and short-lasting, especially when compared to symptoms of influenza infection.
http://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/qa/nasalspray.htm


Study Reports Aluminum in Vaccines Poses Extremely Low Risk to Infants
Page Last Updated: 01/05/2012
The risk to infants posed by the total aluminum exposure received from the entire recommended series of childhood vaccines over the first year of life is extremely low, according to a study by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA).

This study is important because it provides additional scientific information confirming that the benefits of aluminum-containing vaccines administered during the first year of life outweigh any theoretical concerns about the potential effect of aluminum on infants.
<SNIP>
Aluminum is found naturally in large quantities in the environment, often consumed through drinking water or ingesting certain foods, such as infant formula. Using the updated parameters, the authors found that the body burden of aluminum from vaccines and diet throughout an infant’s first year of life is significantly less than the corresponding safe body burden of aluminum, based on the minimal risk levels established by the Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry.

Furthermore, many infants might not receive the entire series of recommended vaccines or the particular combination of vaccines that delivers the maximum amount of aluminum. Therefore, it is likely that some infants will have even lower aluminum levels than calculated in this study and will be at even lower risk for exposure to aluminum through vaccination.
http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccines/ScienceResearch/ucm284520.htm


Since aluminum is not used in flu vaccines, the CDC does not address that myth.

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Response to csziggy (Reply #86)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 12:41 PM

98. yes, you can get...

The disease whenever you use a MLV vaccine. Fact.

I'm having trouble finding out if an adjuvant in the vaccines is used at all, conflicting information.

I find it a bit ironic how folks on this site talk about big pharma, corporate deceit, etc., and then so willingly swallow much of the myths told by the vaccine manufacturers and such. Interesting.

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Response to Mona (Reply #98)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 01:38 PM

99. Provide sources for your claims

I provided sources for the contrary. Unless you provide sources, I will not consider your assertion to have any validity.

As for your comment about big pharma and corporate deceit, there is a balancing act. I do not speak for all DUers. DU is a large cross section of people with widely varying views on all sorts of subjects

For myself, I believe that vaccinations are needed to control disease. I grew up with children who had suffered from polio - the valedictorian of my high school class was in braces because of the damage to her body from that disease. My elementary class was among the first to have mandatory vaccinations for polio - and no one was insane enough to deny their children that protection - far too many parents had worried their children would be among those killed or permanently damaged by the disease.

As a child I had illnesses that most children today should not have to worry about because of modern vaccinations - rubella, pertussis (whooping cough), measles, and chicken pox - but the anti-vaccine movement is bringing them back, along with deaths that could have been prevented. I worry about getting shingles because of my childhood bout of chicken pox - and have gotten the shingles vaccination in hopes that will keep me from going through the agony of shingles as my father did. I already have a recurrent herpes zoster infection that has plagued me for 40 years. Hopefully the shingles vaccination I got last fall will prevent future recurrences.

Vaccinations are not perfect, but the risks from vaccines are much less than the risk from the diseases they are meant to protect us from.

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Response to Mona (Reply #98)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 03:10 PM

112. No, you cannot

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Response to Mona (Reply #98)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 08:32 PM

137. This site tends to have a kneejerk reaction to nurses

when they exhibit individual thought and human weaknesses. It's weird. You should have seen the vitriol at the nurse who got pulled over, after being threatened and treated like shit by a cop, threatened him back. He complained to the hospital and they fired her. The consensus here was that she deserved it. The expectations of limitless patience and altruism no matter what the circumstance makes me like to remind people is that they are nurses, not nuns. And nurses working in a hospital have the least amount of autonomy and say about policy (responsible for everything with power over none).

Now, I usually get the flu shot because I can't resist free healthcare. I get it at work. One gal I work with was out the month of December with the flu, and she is still pale. She got the flu shot in October.

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Response to csziggy (Reply #86)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 11:14 PM

147. Stopped using mercury - "in most vaccines."

"in most vaccines." "in most vaccines." "in most vaccines." "in most vaccines." "in most vaccines." "in most vaccines." "in most vaccines." "in most vaccines." "in most vaccines." "in most vaccines." "in most vaccines." "in most vaccines." "in most vaccines." "in most vaccines." "in most vaccines." "in most vaccines." "in most vaccines." "in most vaccines." "in most vaccines." "in most vaccines." "in most vaccines." "in most vaccines." "in most vaccines." "in most vaccines." "in most vaccines." "in most vaccines." "in most vaccines." "in most vaccines." "in most vaccines." "in most vaccines." "in most vaccines." "in most vaccines." "in most vaccines." "in most vaccines." "in most vaccines." "in most vaccines." "in most vaccines." "in most vaccines." "in most vaccines." "in most vaccines." "in most vaccines." "in most vaccines." "in most vaccines." "in most vaccines." "in most vaccines." "in most vaccines." "in most vaccines." "in most vaccines." "in most vaccines." "in most vaccines." "in most vaccines." "in most vaccines." "in most vaccines." "in most vaccines." "in most vaccines." "in most vaccines." "in most vaccines." "in most vaccines." "in most vaccines." "in most vaccines." "in most vaccines." "in most vaccines." "in most vaccines." "in most vaccines." "in most vaccines." "in most vaccines." "in most vaccines." "in most vaccines." "in most vaccines." "in most vaccines." "in most vaccines." "in most vaccines." "in most vaccines." "in most vaccines." "in most vaccines." "in most vaccines."

So - yeah.

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Response to OhZone (Reply #147)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 12:20 AM

165. Oh jesus christ

it's ethyl mercury, which is about the same as saying you're eating chlorine and sodium when you eat table salt.

Will we be hearing you talk about the dangers of exploding when eating salt?

(since you seem to lack chemistry knowledge, sodium ignites on contact with water)

jesas Fing christ.

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Response to OhZone (Reply #147)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 12:44 AM

174. The unsubstantiated claim was that aluminum was used in live flu vaccines

Which it is not. Thimerosal, the mercury containing compound used in some vaccines, is not in the live flu nasal-spray vaccine used in this country, as I documented with a quote from the CDC:

No, the nasal-spray flu vaccine LAIV (FluMist®) does not contain thimerosal or any other preservative.
http://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/qa/nasalspray.htm


Frankly it does not matter if thimerosal were to be used in flu or any other vaccines since there are no reputable studies that show it causes any harm.

CDC Study on “Prenatal and Infant Exposure to Thimerosal from Vaccines and Immunoglobins and Risk of Autism”

A new study by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) has shown that prenatal and infant exposure to vaccines and immunoglobulins that contain thimerosal does not increase risk for autism spectrum disorder (ASD). "Prenatal and Infant Exposure to Thimerosal from Vaccines and Immunoglobins and Risk of Autism" is published in the October 2010 print edition of Pediatrics Adobe PDF file External Web Site Icon (published online September 13, 2010)http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/reprint/peds.2010-0309v1.pdf).

How was this CDC study conducted?

CDC conducted a case-control study in three managed care organizations that participate in its Vaccine Safety Datalink (VSD) Project. The VSD was established in 1990 as a collaborative effort between CDC's Immunization Safety Office and eight managed care organizations (MCOs) to monitor immunization safety and address the gaps in scientific knowledge about rare and serious adverse events following immunization.

A total of 1,008 children participated in the study; of these, 256 had ASD (case children) and 752 did not did not. The purpose of the study was to see if ethylmercury from thimerosal in vaccines or immunoglobulin products increased a child’s risk of developing autism. Ethylmercury exposure of the children and their mothers was ascertained and evaluated for possible relationship to ASD or two subtypes of ASD – autistic disorder and ASD with regression.

Thimerosal is a mercury-containing preservative that is added to multi-dose vials (vials containing more than one dose) of vaccine to prevent contamination and growth of potentially harmful bacteria.

What are the main findings from this study?

This study found that children with any ASD conditions and those without ASD had similar ethylmercury exposures at the end of each exposure period from pregnancy to 20 months of age. Exposure to ethylmercury from thimerosal-containing immunizations during pregnancy (prenatally), or as a young child, was not associated with any of the ASD outcomes. The researchers found that the results were similar between boys and girls—thimerosal-containing immunizations did not increase the risk of any of the ASD outcomes.
More: http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/Concerns/Thimerosal/QA_Pediatrics-thimerosal-autism.html


Autism and Thimerosal: a Danish Study
Did the incidence of autism in Denmark decrease after thimerosal-containing vaccines were discontinued in 1992? No; in fact, the incidence of autism rose after 1991, according to this study.

The article

Thimerosal and the Occurrence of Autism: Negative Ecological Evidence from Danish Population-Based Data. Madsen KM, Lauritsen MB, Pedersen CB, Thorsen P, Plesner A, Andersen PH, and Mortensen PB. Pediatrics 2003;112: 604-6. http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/abstract/112/3/604

The question

Did the incidence of autism in Denmark decrease after thimerosal-containing vaccines were discontinued in 1992?

The study

Thimerosal-containing vaccines were used in Denmark from the early 1950s until 1992—when thimerosal was removed from vaccines. If thimerosal-containing vaccines were causing autism in Danish children, the removal of thimerosal from vaccines should have impacted the incidence of autism.

To see if that was the case, the researchers analyzed data on autism cases from the Danish Psychiatric Central Research Register dating back to 1971.

The findings

From 1971 to 2000, 956 children were diagnosed with autism, with a rise in the number of cases in the 1990s. They found no correlation between thimerosal-containing vaccines and autism. The incidence of autism remained fairly stable until 1990 and thereafter increased throughout the study period, including the period when thimerosal was no longer in vaccines.

Their data do not suggest a cause-and-effect relation between thimerosal-containing vaccines and autism.
http://www.immunizationinfo.org/science/autism-and-thimerosal-danish-study


Repeating your pet phrase numerous times does not make it true or have any effect in a rational argument. I've asked for sources for the claims that live flu vaccines cause flu cases and that aluminum in flu vaccines cause health problems. No one who has made those claims has presented me with any sources, not even unreputable ones.

I cited one source that said aluminum is not used in flu vaccines. Flat statement - no aluminum. So now anti-vaccines people are jumping on the phrase about mercury compounds. OK, above are sources that say thimerosal is not harmful.

Please respond with coherent intelligent comments AND with reputable sources. Moronic repetition of a phrase taken out of context does not qualify.

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Response to csziggy (Reply #174)

Mon Jan 7, 2013, 08:34 AM

217. Maybe it's harmful or maybe it's not -

What "authorities" say is harmful and what is not - evolves.

Did you know the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services has classified alcohol as a carcinogen?

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Response to OhZone (Reply #217)

Mon Jan 7, 2013, 10:53 AM

218. Do you have a link to that claim?

Otherwise I will not believe it.

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Response to csziggy (Reply #218)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 09:58 PM

227. Easily google-able!


Alcohol Listed as 'Known Carcinogen'
Previously a Catalyst, Now Listed as a Carcinogen

By Buddy T, About.com Guide

Updated August 09, 2010

About.com Health's Disease and Condition content is reviewed by the Medical Review Board

See More About:

alcohol and cancer
health effects

For the first time alcoholic beverages have been listed as a known human carcinogen by the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services in its "Report on Carcinogens" 9th edition.

The report states that consumption of alcoholic beverages is causally related to cancers of the mouth pharynx larynx and esophagus and that studies indicate that the risk is most pronounced among smokers and at the highest levels of consumption.

http://alcoholism.about.com/cs/cancer/a/aa000520.htm

http://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/aa21.htm

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Response to Mona (Reply #48)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 03:09 PM

111. You cannot get the flu from the vax

Not any version of the vax.

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Response to alp227 (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 01:47 AM

49. May their convictions towards their own personal choices find them well in their next career(s)...

In their most recent career choice, they choose their own ideologies over patient care; good riddance.

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Response to alp227 (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 02:39 AM

50. Several years ago, I worked in a hospital in which employees were told to take flu shots.

It was a new vaccine and we were told to sign a waiver that we wouldn't sue the drug company if we got sick after taking the vaccine.

Having already worked there for a few years, and understanding how things worked in medicine from an insider's perspective, I refused to sign the waiver. Another employee in my department also refused to sign.

We were told that, without signing the waiver, we wouldn't receive the vaccine, and there could be dire consequences for us.

Just about everyone else in the hospital got the vaccine. The result was that a large number of employees became ill.

The two of us that refused the vaccine never developed so much as a sniffle.

Having worked in this hospital as well as other medical-related businesses, I can tell you that there are a lot of worse things to worry about in medical practice than whether or not this nurse took a flu shot.

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Response to AdHocSolver (Reply #50)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 04:52 AM

57. You see

 

those who profess to believe in "science", need to believe in medical industry and that nothing is wrong there...

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Response to AdHocSolver (Reply #50)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 09:54 AM

82. The very essence of this story.



"...understanding how things worked in medicine from an insider's perspective..."

And yet, despite your compelling story about the business behind medicine, most people would rather ignore that and play the industry's game of fear based consumerism.


"Having worked in this hospital as well as other medical-related businesses, I can tell you that there are a lot of worse things to worry about in medical practice than whether or not this nurse took a flu shot."

Indeed! Once you have control of your body one would be advised to avoid hospitals, the people who work there and the vast public relations industry that keeps it all afloat.

It bears repeating:

"The two of us that refused the vaccine never developed so much as a sniffle."


.

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Response to AdHocSolver (Reply #50)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 12:34 PM

96. Touche

I work in a hospital and every year there's a big drive to force everyone to get flu shots. I don't due to the complete lack of science supporting their use and because I'd rather get the flu than Guillain-Barre. They can't force us because we are not at-will employees.

It is certainly the case that, when dealing with the medical system, dying from the flu caught from an unvaccinated nurse is laughably far down the list of things one should be worried about.

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Response to RobinA (Reply #96)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 12:37 AM

172. I agree

Robin,
If they only knew....lol!

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Response to alp227 (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 03:07 AM

53. These are medical workers

They (should) know that vaccination stops the spread of viral disease. They certainly should know that flu is a killer especially in a hospital where people with weakened immune systems are present in large numbers. They must be aware that even HDU standards of cleanliness will not have the same effect as vaccination because the virus is present within their bodies.

Would these persons stay unvaccinated if through a pertussis outbreak, would they stay unvaccinated through a polio outbreak?

No sympathy

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Response to alp227 (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 06:00 AM

58. She should have been fired

This also compromised patient safety. Working in a hospital or/and a Peds or cancer or geriatric clinic, comes with certain protocol.

I asked the nurses I know, and they think she should have been fired, too.

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Response to alp227 (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 08:41 AM

71. Seems to me you can pass along the germs

without ever getting the illness anyway. A vaccinated person can care for a sick person, never get the illness, but if they're not careful about washing hands, etc., they can still infect another person. Right?

Seems to me the vaccination is irrelevent.

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Response to MissMillie (Reply #71)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 12:38 PM

97. Yes

A vaccinated person can pass to another person.

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Response to alp227 (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 08:43 AM

73. Good. (nt)

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Response to alp227 (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 08:44 AM

74. Who's the big pharmas making bank on flu shots anyway?

I guess we forgot about that angle.

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Response to Puzzledtraveller (Reply #74)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 09:35 AM

80. No one "makes bank" on flu shots

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #80)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 03:12 PM

115. +1

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Response to Puzzledtraveller (Reply #74)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 12:24 AM

166. 3% of what pharma makes is from ALL vaccines

They make hella more on a dick pill. The only reason they even bother is that the government requires them.

so much for the money angle.

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Response to alp227 (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 08:50 AM

75. People with flu are contagious BEFORE they have flu symptoms.

what religious reasons? There is no excuse to risk ICU patients with exposure to a possible 'Typhoid Ethel Nurse'

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Response to alp227 (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 09:10 AM

78. I worked for an accounting firm

This of course is their busiest time of the year. In November of each year they offered the flu shot at no cost. If you called in sick during "tax season", you could not use your sick time or vacation days unless you had taken the flu shot, so you did not get paid for that day off. It was all about making sure we were properly staffed when we needed it the most.

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Response to alp227 (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 10:23 AM

83. How would she make her patients sick

when she is not sick?

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Response to roody (Reply #83)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 10:27 AM

84. People with flu are contagious before showing symptoms nt

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Response to roody (Reply #83)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 03:11 PM

113. By the time you know you have the flu, it's too late

You have been contagious for a while.

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Response to alp227 (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 10:55 AM

85. I get my flu shot every year with no complaints.

I'm a type 1 diabetic and getting any kind of virus messes my blood sugars up badly. The regular stomach bug that comes along every year is actually frightening to me. My blood sugars can get so low or so high I can end up in the hospital. To me, the flu shot is like a life saver. I don't get the fear. My daughter has asthma as well and she gets her's every year too.

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Response to alp227 (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 11:59 AM

90. Efficacy of Flu Vaccine

The efficacy of the flu vaccine in preventing deaths has not been proven. Until it has been, I consider the annual campaign to force flu shots on everyone to be a scam. It is without a scientific basis.

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Response to RobinA (Reply #90)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 12:24 PM

94. What do you do for a living?

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Response to RobinA (Reply #90)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 03:12 PM

114. lol

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Response to RobinA (Reply #90)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 12:31 AM

169. CDC recommends the vaccine

Not known for being the hotbed of woo thinking, unlike some posters here.

http://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/season/flu-season-2012-2013.htm

Scientists continue to work on better ways to design, conduct and evaluate non-randomized (i.e., observational) studies to assess how well flu vaccines work.CDC has been working with researchers at universities and hospitals since the 2003-2004 influenza season to estimate how well influenza vaccine works through observational studies using laboratory-confirmed influenza as the outcome. These studies currently use RT-PCR confirmed medically-attended influenza virus infections as a specific outcome. CDC’s studies are conducted in five sites across the United States to gather more representative data. To assess how well the vaccine works across different age groups, CDC’s studies of vaccine effects have included all people aged 6 months and older recommended at that time for an annual influenza vaccination. Similar studies are being done in Australia, Canada and Europe.

http://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/qa/vaccineeffect.htm

Seems the CDC has scientific evidence it does work, and I'll believe them.

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Response to Confusious (Reply #169)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 10:58 PM

204. It Does Seem

that they are attempting some good studies. Evidence...not so much, at least not at your CDC link. The vaccine prevented 7 out of 10 people from getting the flu? Do they think we are stupid? What does that even mean? I haven't had the flu since 1980, did the vaccine prevent my flu? Oops, no, I won't get the vaccine. Had I gotten the vaccine, would it have prevented me from getting the flu? No, I didn't get it anyway.

The reason I am a bit peeved on this subject is that people are being fired and forced to subject themselves to medication side effects based on (at this point) nonexistent science, which everyone just buys into.

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Response to RobinA (Reply #204)

Sun Jan 6, 2013, 01:35 AM

207. Well I think the claim of side effects

Of a vaccine are nonexistent, except in a few rare, fluke cases. I had an update of the MMR a few years ago. No side effects.

It's a vaccine, not a drug.

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Response to Confusious (Reply #207)

Sun Jan 6, 2013, 08:35 PM

215. By My Dictionary

a vaccine is a drug.

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Response to alp227 (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 01:43 PM

100. I'm an RN. . .

And at my hospital we are ALL required to have the flu vaccine-- nurses, MD's, medical students--anybody who has contact with patients. It was NOT negotiable this year-- we had to be 100% compliant. . . .

As far as visitors are concerned, anybody with a temperature, cough, sore throat, etc. is supposed to be turned away. Since our unit has restricted access, it is pretty easy to screen family members & visitors prior to them entering the unit.

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Response to alp227 (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 01:51 PM

102. At least in California if a healthcare person who deals with patients does not take the flu vaccine,

they are required to wear masks

Not sure how protective that is to the patients, but it does offer an alternative, however, the vast majority of healthcare professionals do take the flu vaccine

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Response to alp227 (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 03:45 PM

118. My mandatory flu vaccine did a great job this year.

of course it was better than being shitcanned by the hospital.

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Response to alp227 (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 04:44 PM

120. I have never had either one of them. A flu shot or the flu itself.

Fortunately I do not work in a hospital so no one can force me to have one. Yet.

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Response to alp227 (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 06:36 PM

127. Anyone working in a medical setting should get vaccinated

I'm an RN working at a state hospital, in the geriatric unit. Our patients are the worst of the worst... criminally, psychologically, and medically. They are at extremely high risk of contracting flu, TB, Hep B, and other illnesses found in such populations. Many of these types of patients also can have Hep C and HIV/AIDS.

We are required by the state to get TB, Hep B, and flu vaccines. If we do not get the vaccines, we cannot work. I have absolutely NO problem with this policy. It not only keeps our patients safe from contracting illnesses from the staff, but it keeps US safe from contracting illnesses from them.

And a 61 year old woman working in a critical care unit should be the FIRST person in line to get a flu vaccine!

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Response to alp227 (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 07:46 PM

131. Hospital employees without flu shots are all potential Typhoid Marys.

And they appear to be just about as clueless and obstinate as she was. Probably worse, because as medical professionals they are supposed to understand how the whole flu shot/herd health thing works.

Firing is too good for these jackasses. If any of them ever spread flu to their patients they should be prosecuted for willful endangerment or attempted murder or manslaughter. Good Gawd.

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Response to alp227 (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 08:08 PM

135. I get the flu shot every year now. Especially since that new strain cropped up that

my feline patients can catch AND DIE FROM. I don't require that my staff gets it, but I expect them to STAY home if they come down with it (and yes, that means no pay) and until they get over it.

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Response to alp227 (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 08:11 PM

136. I had flu vaccine and have been sick 3 times since

I have not had so much flu since 1977

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Response to alp227 (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 08:34 PM

138. I wonder how high on the pay scale and close to retirement these nurses were. nt

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Response to alp227 (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 09:27 PM

139. Mandatory Flu Vaccines for Healthcare Workers – Why one man chose the mask

http://kellythekitchenkop.com/2012/10/mandatory-flu-vaccines-for-healthcare-workers-why-one-man-is-choosing-the-mask.html


Among the most compelling was a systematic database review performed by the Cochrane Collaboration, an international, independent scientific research group that does not receive funding from the drug industry and is widely held as the gold standard of medical research. Their 2010 review of 36 randomized controlled flu vaccine trials including 70,000 people revealed that the vaccine does very little to prevent the flu. They found that for every 100 flu vaccinations, only 1 set of flu symptoms was actually prevented (source), but the vaccine did cause 1 case of Guillian-Barre Syndrome among the subjects included.


A flu vaccine does not guarantee you will not get the flu

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Response to alp227 (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 10:34 PM

145. A nurse that gets a flu shot but does not wash his or her hands is far more

likely to be a spreader of the flu than someone who does not get a flu shot but does wash his or her hands.

If said nurse wears gloves, they are very unlikely to spread the virus. The flu is spread by touch, not by breathing. Spit/snot/piss/crap/blood of an infected person gets on your hands, you rub your eye, put your finger in your mouth, or ear (ew), or nose (ew) and you are then exposed to the virus. Wear gloves / wash hands = no spread fluids = no get sick.

I'd rather require nurses to wear gloves.

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Response to SWTORFanatic (Reply #145)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 12:34 AM

171. Bullshit

Flu can spread to people up to 6 feet away.

Most experts think that flu viruses are spread mainly by droplets made when people with flu cough, sneeze or talk.

http://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/disease/spread.htm

jesus Fing christ you would think nobody ever invented the internet.

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Response to Confusious (Reply #171)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 12:42 AM

173. No, bullshit

Amazingly, about 80% of infectious diseases are transmitted by touch. The CDC estimates that up to 49,000 people die from the flu or flu-like illness each year, and another 5,000 people die from food borne illness each year. And the best protection from this type of illness is frequent hand washing. The simple friction that occurs when you rub skin against skin, along with warm water and soap, followed by thorough rinsing, and drying, gets rid of the potentially harmful bacteria.

According to the CDC, the simple act of hand washing is the single most important means of preventing the spread of viral and bacterial infections. Yet some findings reveal that many Americans using public restrooms don't wash their hands before leaving. People also forget to wash their hands before preparing meals. They also grab snacks without thinking of hand washing.

http://www.webmd.com/cold-and-flu/cold-guide/cold-prevention-hand-washing

EDIT: to say it is spread by droplets of snot and spit (sneezing and coughing) is not accurate. Yes, technically those parts of the body do have flu virus on them. But they get on your hands and you touch surfaces or people... who then touch their eyes or ears or mouths or noses.

Who coughs or sneezes in the direction of someone? Especially at 3 feet away? Virtually no one does that. I have been around sick people numerous times and ever since I learned that most diseases are caused by touch I have not gotten sick because I am careful about what I touch.

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Response to SWTORFanatic (Reply #173)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 12:52 AM

176. The flu is spread by touch, not by breathing.

Your words, your bullshit.

If someone talks who has the flu and sprays spittle all over the place, and gets it on the gloves, they ain't going to protect you.

your Anecdotes are not evidence.

The CDC contradicts you. I'll believe the CDC.

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Response to Confusious (Reply #176)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 01:05 AM

178. Who stands close to a couching or sneezing person? If you do that I guess you are asking to get sick

or make someone sick.

Again, CDC says most infections are caused by touch.

And you don't have to be sick to get someone sick to spread via touch. You have to be sick (essentially, how often does a non-sick person sneeze or cough) to spread via airborne - and if that's the case you should be at home anyway.

And CDC also says most important way to prevent infections is frequent hand washing. If it was spread mostly by airborne, why would hand washing be relevant at all? It does not say the most important way to prevent infections is to get a flu shot.

And even then...... EVEN then! The flu shot, at best has a modest effect in reducing rate of infection in healthy 16-65 year old adults.

http://www.calgaryherald.com/health/much+does+shot+help/7426422/story.html

For their 2010 paper, the reviewers assessed all the studies going back to 1966 that evaluate the effects of vaccines against influenza in healthy adults. The reviewers found 50 randomized controlled trials or quasi-randomized controlled trials that compared flu vaccines with either placebo or no intervention. More than 70,000 healthy adults total, between ages 16 and 65, were subjects.

Among the Cochrane reviewers' conclusions was that influenza vaccines "have a modest effect" in reducing influenza symptoms and lost work days.

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Response to SWTORFanatic (Reply #178)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 01:09 AM

179. Most infections

There are different infections. Not everything is "the flu."

The CDC says the flu can be spread by air. You said it cannot.

People with flu can spread it to others up to about 6 feet away. Most experts think that flu viruses are spread mainly by droplets made when people with flu cough, sneeze or talk. These droplets can land in the mouths or noses of people who are nearby or possibly be inhaled into the lungs. Less often, a person might also get flu by touching a surface or object that has flu virus on it and then touching their own mouth or nose.

http://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/disease/spread.htm

Again, you double down on the bullshit.

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Response to Confusious (Reply #179)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 01:15 AM

182. CAN spread up to 6 feet, but unlikely. And again, you have to be sick (so you should stay home if

you are sick) to spread the flu this way.

And it says most experts think that flu viruses are spread mainly droplets made when people with flu cough, sneeze, or talk - that statement does not directly say it is mostly spread airborne after the droplets are made.

Moreover, it says "less often, touching a surface or object" - it does not say "less often, touching a surface or object or PERSON".

http://www.health.gov.au/fluandyou

In general, influenza viruses are spread in two ways:

1. Respiratory droplets from an infected person's coughs or sneezes (these droplets generally travel less than one metre); and
2. Touching contaminated surfaces (including hands) and then touching your mouth, nose or eyes.

I'll stand next to someone with the flu and talk to them. You can shake their hand after they wipe their nose or mouth. Go ahead and touch your eye or mouth or nose after that. I bet you get sick and I don't.

And again you disregard the most important fact here... people with a flu shot can get the flu! People who do not get a flu shot do not always get the flu! I would gladly (if it would make you happy) require the workers to wear a mask in addition to gloves :p but forcing a flu shot is stupid.

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Response to SWTORFanatic (Reply #182)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 01:20 AM

183. So you have problems reading?

that statement does not directly say it is mostly spread airborne after the droplets are made


That's exactly what it says. The next sentence says "less often" so the preceding sentence means "more often" or "mostly."


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Response to Confusious (Reply #183)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 01:23 AM

185. No, do you have problems reading? It says surfaces less often. It does not say

"hands less often".



And again you ignore my other points. Answer them.

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Response to SWTORFanatic (Reply #185)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 01:28 AM

186. Jesus Fing Christ

Your hand is a surface.

Anything that is not air is a surface, liquids excluded, but they have a surface in other disciplines.

Never took much science did you?

Good lord.

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Response to SWTORFanatic (Reply #182)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 08:46 PM

203. You can be contagious up to 7 days

(incubation period) before you show symptoms. Average incubation period is 2 days so you could do a whole lot of damage on a hospital ward before you even know you are ill.

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Response to SWTORFanatic (Reply #178)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 02:32 AM

192. every fly in a plane or go to the store? you are exposed and close to sick people & share the air.

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Response to SWTORFanatic (Reply #145)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 01:27 PM

225. So what? That's a total moot point.

A nurse that refused to wash his/her hands would be fired too.

A hospital has every right to require their employees to take the measures they deem necessary to keep their patients healthy.

That's not infringing on anybody's rights.

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Response to alp227 (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 11:44 PM

151. I have no sympathy for them. One of my friends almost died from influenza this week. n/t

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Response to alp227 (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 11:44 PM

152. Hey, hospitals are not hiring someone if they are a nicotine user on their own time. What is the

big deal.

Can't comply with the conditions of employment...find another place to work.

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Response to alp227 (Original post)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 12:55 AM

177. this reminds me..i get a free shot from medicare

i think anyone who works in the medical profession should take the shot. if i were a patient i sure in the hell do`t want to get sick from someone who is taking care of me.

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Response to alp227 (Original post)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 08:00 PM

200. Taking the flu vaccine would have little effect on passing the disease to someone else.

The vaccine is designed to prevent the recipient of the vaccine from developing the disease. It does not stop them from being a carrier of the virus and passing it to someone else.

In the case of "Typhoid Mary", she had immunity to the virus, which prevented her from getting sick. It did not stop her from passing the disease to others.

Attention to strict cleanliness, such as hand washing, gloves, and wearing face masks, would be far more effective in preventing passing on a contagious element, than forcing the employees take a vaccine.

The main reason that the hospital fired the nurses who didn't take the vaccine was as a public relations tactic to make the public believe that the hospital administration was on top of this "issue" in order to protect the public.

The main concern of the hospital administration is public image and fear of medical malpractice lawsuits.

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Response to alp227 (Original post)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 08:08 PM

201. Contracting the flu when you are already sick enough to be hospitalized can be

life threatening. They could be responsible for killing someone simply by infecting them. If they want to put their own well being in jeopardy that is one thing but to jeopardize their patients is a whole different ball game. The hospital is right and they are wrong.

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Response to alp227 (Original post)

Sun Jan 6, 2013, 12:15 AM

205. My best friend

is a nurse at a non-union hospital. She can't get the flu shot because she has an allergic reaction to it, so she wears a mask. What's hypocritical is that the parents that come in (it's a neonatal ward), the visitors, the siblings, the janitors, etc, etc are not required to show proof of a vaccine OR have to wear a mask. Oh and the administration isn't required to do either. Something wrong with this picture.

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Response to mimi85 (Reply #205)

Sun Jan 6, 2013, 12:51 AM

206. So would unionization have made better safety standards?

Geez. If a Republican had to go to this hospital and was victimized further by an unvaccinated nurse, would the patient re-register as a Democrat after being discharged?

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Response to alp227 (Original post)

Sun Jan 6, 2013, 01:20 PM

208. A flu vaccine is not a guarantee that one won't get the flu

and the side effects can be very hazardous to ones health

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Response to alp227 (Original post)

Sun Jan 6, 2013, 01:24 PM

209. You have the inalienable right to think on your own,

so long as your conclusions are the same as your employer's.

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Response to alp227 (Original post)

Sun Jan 6, 2013, 03:43 PM

210. All it would take

would be a patient dying from the flu that was given to them by a nurse. The ensuing lawsuit would cost the hospital millions.

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Response to alp227 (Original post)

Sun Jan 6, 2013, 04:10 PM

211. There is no evidence that vaccinating healthcare workers prevents flu in elderly patients.

From a 2010 Cochrane Review

Influenza vaccination for healthcare workers who work with the elderly

Plain language summary
Influenza vaccination for healthcare workers who work with the elderly

There are no accurate data on rates of laboratory-proven influenza in healthcare workers.

The three studies in the first publication of this review and the two new studies we identified in this update are all at high risk of bias.

The studies found that vaccinating healthcare workers who look after the elderly in long-term care facilities did not show any effect on the specific outcomes of interest, namely laboratory-proven influenza, pneumonia or deaths from pneumonia. An effect was shown for outcomes with a non-specific relationship to influenza, namely influenza-like illness (which includes many other viruses and bacteria than influenza), GP consultations for influenza-like illness, hospital admissions and the overall mortality of the elderly (winter influenza is responsible for less than 10% of the deaths of individuals over 60 and overall mortality thus reflects many other causes).

Healthcare workers have lower rates of influenza vaccination than the elderly and surveys show that healthcare workers who do not get vaccinated do not perceive themselves at risk, doubt the efficacy of influenza vaccine, have concerns about side effects, and some do not perceive their patients to be at risk. This review did not find information on other interventions that can be used in conjunction with vaccinating healthcare workers, for example hand washing, face masks, early detection of laboratory-proven influenza in individuals with influenza-like illness by using nasal swabs, quarantine of floors and entire long-term care facilities during outbreaks, avoiding new admissions, prompt use of anti-virals, and asking healthcare workers with an influenza-like illness not to present for work.

We conclude that there is no evidence that only vaccinating healthcare workers prevents laboratory-proven influenza, pneumonia, and death from pneumonia in elderly residents in long-term care facilities. Other interventions such as hand washing, masks, early detection of influenza with nasal swabs, anti-virals, quarantine, restricting visitors and asking healthcare workers with an influenza-like illness not to attend work might protect individuals over 60 in long-term care facilities and high quality randomised controlled trials testing combinations of these interventions are needed.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/14651858.CD005187.pub3/abstract;jsessionid=77D16FD3EB8331F7120B689FD6D99E0B.d02t03

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Response to alp227 (Original post)

Sun Jan 6, 2013, 05:05 PM

214. No sympathy here.

They deal with people whom the flu could easily kill.

A lot of people in the social services have to get immunizations. No big whoop.

But, reading some of the Indiana news comment sites, a lot of people in this state think it's just one more step toward totalitarianism.

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Response to alp227 (Original post)


Response to darkangel218 (Reply #216)

Mon Jan 7, 2013, 11:23 AM

219. I'd take the HepB vaccine

before ever showing up in a clinical environment.

Believe me, you don't want HepB itself.

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Response to sharp_stick (Reply #219)


Response to darkangel218 (Reply #216)

Mon Jan 7, 2013, 12:14 PM

220. You want to do as much as you can to protect

yourself and others, even in training. I know of a nursing student right now who developed Pott's Disease a few months back.

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Response to Lars39 (Reply #220)


Response to alp227 (Original post)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 01:36 PM

226. No sympathy here either.

Sure, she has a right to refuse the vaccine. And the hospital has the right not to endanger their patients. So, tough. Just because you stand up for yourself and follow your conscience doesn't mean there aren't consequences.

This anti-vaccine movement is going to have devastating consequences in the long run.

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