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Thu Jan 3, 2013, 02:56 PM

'Stand Your Ground' Linked to Increase in Homicides

Source: NPR

In 2005, Florida became the first of nearly two-dozen states to pass a "stand your ground" law that removed the requirement to retreat. If you felt at risk of harm in a park or on the street, you could use lethal force to defend yourself. The shooting of unarmed 17-year-old Trayvon Martin in Sanford, Fla., drew national attention to these laws.

Now, researchers who've studied the effect of the laws have found that states with a stand your ground law have more homicides than states without such laws.


Read more: http://www.npr.org/2013/01/02/167984117/-stand-your-ground-linked-to-increase-in-homicide

34 replies, 3437 views

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Arrow 34 replies Author Time Post
Reply 'Stand Your Ground' Linked to Increase in Homicides (Original post)
MissMillie Jan 2013 OP
DryRain Jan 2013 #1
Jim__ Jan 2013 #2
onehandle Jan 2013 #3
DryRain Jan 2013 #6
samsingh Jan 2013 #4
jpak Jan 2013 #5
billh58 Jan 2013 #12
kimbutgar Jan 2013 #7
Tempest Jan 2013 #8
obama2terms Jan 2013 #9
thebard77 Jan 2013 #10
hedgehog Jan 2013 #13
billh58 Jan 2013 #14
AtheistCrusader Jan 2013 #17
Tempest Jan 2013 #19
AtheistCrusader Jan 2013 #20
Tempest Jan 2013 #23
JDPriestly Jan 2013 #16
Tempest Jan 2013 #18
oldbanjo Jan 2013 #25
marions ghost Jan 2013 #27
JoeyT Jan 2013 #30
thebard77 Jan 2013 #32
Skittles Jan 2013 #11
krispos42 Jan 2013 #15
azurnoir Jan 2013 #21
oldbanjo Jan 2013 #26
jody Jan 2013 #22
bongbong Jan 2013 #24
valerief Jan 2013 #28
lindysalsagal Jan 2013 #29
Doctor_J Jan 2013 #31
Lil Missy Jan 2013 #33
MisterScruffles Jan 2013 #34

Response to MissMillie (Original post)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 02:59 PM

1. Not a big surprise, really.

 

The lawless nature of the law gives permission to almost anyone with a gun to shoot whenever and wherever they want, at home, in their condo complex, in the complex next door, in their car, in a parking lot, on the streets, waiting for a pizza. We have seen all of these in the last 12 months in Florida, and elsewhere.

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Response to MissMillie (Original post)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 03:04 PM

2. The article contains a picture of the poster boy for Stand Your Ground Laws

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Response to MissMillie (Original post)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 03:12 PM

3. That's what the gun lobby wants. Deaths are proof of concepts for their product.

Homicides are the NRA's best friend.

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Response to onehandle (Reply #3)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 03:28 PM

6. Yes, increases gun sales every time one more is killed on this stupid concept of

 

"stand your ground".

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Response to MissMillie (Original post)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 03:24 PM

4. no surprise there

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Response to MissMillie (Original post)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 03:28 PM

5. But...but...but.. the Gun Nuts said this would not happen!!!111

Never mind...

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Response to jpak (Reply #5)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 03:48 PM

12. Statistics prove that

SYG laws keep people safe. It says so right there in the Gungeon, and we know that they would never say anything that's not true....

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Response to MissMillie (Original post)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 03:29 PM

7. I will not be going to Florida until this law is repealed

Thinking about taking cruise this year and I will not book a cruise leaving out of Florida. What others states have the stand your ground law? I have to visit Arizona every year to visit my husbands family. I refuse to go to bars and restaurants while I'm there between of the gun policies in the state.

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Response to MissMillie (Original post)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 03:32 PM

8. In Florida you have to be white to successfully use SYG

Look at statistics on successful SYG pleas. If you're white, you're right. If you're black, you're going to prison.

The law is blatantly racist.

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Response to MissMillie (Original post)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 03:43 PM

9. Tell me something that we don't know, really it took a study to figure this out?

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Response to MissMillie (Original post)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 03:46 PM

10. I own a shotgun

 

and I will use it if someone breaks into my home with the intent to harm my wife or child. It sits in a gun safe in the closet in my bedroom. home invasions do happen and people are shot and killed as a result of them. 2 weeks ago it happened 4 streets over from my home. The residents attempted to flee the home and were shot at by the invaders. If someone is intent on killing you trying to flee will only make it happen faster. The issue of gun violence and gun ownership is not as simple as banning guns or repealing the 2nd amendment. Chicago has gun bans and there were 500 murders last year alone. I rage against what happened in Newtown as much as anyone. I hate the NRA for being a bunch of lobbying pricks. However, everyone has a right to defend themselves. Ban military assault weapons. I'm cool with it. However, stop pretending that stand your ground laws are a bad thing. Abuse of the law is the problem. Not the law itself.

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Response to thebard77 (Reply #10)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 03:59 PM

13. Castle doctrine is not the same as stand your ground.

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Response to thebard77 (Reply #10)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 04:04 PM

14. Gosh, NRA talking points

almost verbatim. SYG is indeed bad legislation, and allows for vigilantism and stalking like your man Zimmerman displayed. SYG goes hand-in-hand with concealed carry for those Rambo wannabes who dream about saving damsels in distress. The statistics (which the NRA and its drones like so much) show that municipalities with SYG laws have a higher incidence of homicide. More guns equals more gun deaths and more gun violence.

The "Chicago" NRA talking point has nothing to do with their existing gun control laws, but with gang violence and easy access to guns. Where do you suppose those guns came from? Maybe a gun show? Or, a "private" sale with no background check? Or maybe stolen from a careless "legal" gun owner?

OTOH, castle laws for home protection are fine, and always have been. But guns in the home also need regulation to ensure both responsibility, and accountability.

Contrary to the NRA, the 2nd Amendment does NOT prohibit gun control -- in fact it demands it ("well regulated"). The NRA is the only organization that prohibits gun control, and it does so by buying and bullying politicians at all levels of government. The NRA is our enemy, and not the law-abiding gun owners in America who will not be upset with sane gun control measures.

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Response to billh58 (Reply #14)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 04:35 PM

17. Point of Fact.

SYG doesn't apply to Zimmerman, outside the initial use/claim of it by Wolfinger (the DA) to dismiss the responding officer's writ recommending he be charged, the night of the shooting.

It has impacted the issue in no other way. His defense is not using SYG at all.
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57492488/george-zimmermans-attorneys-wont-use-stand-your-ground-defense/

O'Mara, his attorney, has stated multiple times he will not use it.


Personally, I do not like 'SYG' laws for even THAT reason. In my home state, we have no Duty to Retreat, but we also have no SYG law. So if you are involved in a claimed Justifiable Homicide, you will likely have to explain yourself before a grand jury. I like that. What we DON'T have, that SYG laws in some states offer, is civil immunity, in the case that the person who killed someone in self defense, did so when no criminal complaint stood. (Carrying lawfully, reasonable exercise of force, etc)

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #17)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 04:42 PM

19. Actually, O'Mara has said there will be a SYG hearing

And if it fails he plans to go with self-defense.

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Response to Tempest (Reply #19)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 04:54 PM

20. Sonofa

Great. You are correct, changed in August.

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #20)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 05:09 PM

23. O'Mara changed his mind once the June trial date was set

I think that woke him up that he really has to work at defending this POS.

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Response to thebard77 (Reply #10)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 04:22 PM

16. If you want to use your gun to protect yourself in your home, fine.

If you want to take your gun out on the street, only you know what your intention is.

Someone else who is carrying their gun may figure out that you have one and shoot your first and then claim he is standing his ground. That is what these numbers, this study suggest is happening in stand your ground states.

When you carry a gun, you add to the numbers of guns on the streets. The more guns on the street, the more likely there will be accidents and intentional gun use.

Same with cars. If the number of cars on the streets in your small hometown in George is relatively low, you will see fewer accidents than we do in LA where the population is high and we have many, many cars on the streets no matter the time of day or night.

The more guns you have, the more shootings you will have. The more cars you have, the more car crashes you will have.

So, keep guns off our city streets. Stand Your Ground law add guns to streets and increase gun use on the streets. That's bad for all of us.

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Response to thebard77 (Reply #10)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 04:40 PM

18. You are confusing the Castle law with SYG

Learn about each and then come back.

Only then will you have something to contribute.

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Response to thebard77 (Reply #10)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 06:50 PM

25. SYG is a good law here in SC

if you shoot someone that is in your house you will not have to hire a Lawyer and there can not be a Civil Suit. Before this law it would cost you $10,000 or more for a Lawyer to defend you.

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Response to thebard77 (Reply #10)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 07:09 PM

27. Look at California

--compare it to Florida. Better laws and far fewer gun deaths on the west coast.

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Response to thebard77 (Reply #10)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 07:57 PM

30. You're confusing SYG with Castle Doctrine.

Castle doctrine means you don't have to retreat before defending yourself *in your home*.

SYG means the burden of proving you weren't defending yourself falls to the prosecutor, which is goddamned near impossible to do, unless you're an idiot and murder someone while on the phone with police in full view of dozens of houses.

You can support Castle Doctrine and oppose SYG. That's my position.

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Response to JoeyT (Reply #30)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 10:41 PM

32. Thanks.

 

I thought they were similar. My mistake. Thank you for correcting my mistake without being a dick like another who responded.

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Response to MissMillie (Original post)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 03:47 PM

11. give John Wayne wannabes a reason to shoot

can't see what could possibly go wrong there

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Response to MissMillie (Original post)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 04:22 PM

15. Meh.

The article is full of qualifications and maybes. The graph is suppose to be adjusted for "other factors", but we'll see.

A slight uptick is also not blood running the streets and mass-casualty events over a parking space at WalMart. The rational thought of this and other laws would that it would either provide a minor, hard-to-quantify decrease in crime, or a minor, hard-to-quantify increase in crime.



SYG laws are typically going to be in states run by Republicans, which generally suck in terms of education, employment, wages, mental and physical health coverage, law enforcement, and ideas such as maybe wifebeaters should go to prison for long periods of time.

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Response to MissMillie (Original post)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 04:54 PM

21. gee never could have anticipated this result

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #21)


Response to MissMillie (Original post)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 05:03 PM

22. Reference “Does Strengthening Self-Defense Law Deter Crime or Escalate Violence? Evidence from

 

Castle Doctrine”

Study says, see http://econweb.tamu.edu/mhoekstra/castle_doctrine.pdf
2.2 Crime Data
Outcome data come from the FBI Uniform Crime Reports(UCR)and cover all 50 states from 2000 –2010. Specifically, we use homicide, burglary, robbery, and aggravated assault data from the official UCR data published online by the FBI.

FBI UCR reports Expanded Homicide Data Table 10
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2010/crime-in-the-u.s.-2010/tables/10shrtbl10.xls

Murder Circumstances by Relationship, 2010

Total 12,996

- Of which 5,657 (43.5%) by Husband, Wife, Mother, Father, Son, Daughter, Brother, Sister, Other family, Acquaintance, Friend, Boyfriend, Girlfriend, Neighbor, Employee, Employer, Stranger, Unknown; Employer

- Of which 7,339 (56.5%) by Stranger, Unknown

Reference study does not mention “domestic” circumstances or other similar circumstances (43.5%) nor make a case for including murders under those circumstances as affected by Stand Your Ground or Castle Doctrine laws.

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Response to MissMillie (Original post)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 05:20 PM

24. Another pesky fact for the NRA to shout over

 

Like they do every time they make a public statement or a public lie (I know, I'm repeating myself)

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Response to MissMillie (Original post)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 07:18 PM

28. Amazing how an "It's okay to shoot him" law results in more homicides.

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Response to MissMillie (Original post)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 07:54 PM

29. Thankyou, Captain Obvious.

I mean, not the poster, the states that actually promote and sustain such ridiculous laws.

It's no way to live.

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Response to MissMillie (Original post)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 09:57 PM

31. File under "duh"

Let's see...a law that says "Anyone who you find threatening can be killed", in states where guns are everywhere, leads to more lethal shootings. As Condi might say, "No one could have predicted"

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Response to MissMillie (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 12:16 AM

33. Another for the "no shit sherlock" file

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Response to MissMillie (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 02:36 AM

34. Correct me if I'm wrong

 

From what I have heard, most of the SYG laws do not have a first aggressor clause, whereas most of the "castle doctrine" laws do. Is this correct?

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