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Tue Jan 1, 2013, 04:25 PM

Indian bus rape: Delhi sees rush for guns

Source: The Guardian

Hundreds of women in Delhi have applied for gun licences following the gang rape and murder of a 23-year-old woman by six men in a bus in the city last month.

The news underlines the widespread sense of insecurity in the city, deep before the incident and deeper now, and the lack of faith in law enforcement agencies.

The ashes of the victim of the attack – who died on Friday after 13 days in hospitals in India and Singapore, and was cremated in Delhi in a secret ceremony under heavy security on Sunday – were scattered on the surface of the Ganges river, sacred to Hindus, in northern India on Tuesday.

The case has provoked an unprecedented debate about endemic sexual harassment and violence in India. Tens of thousands have protested across the country, calling for harsher laws, better policing and a change in culture.

Read more: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jan/01/indian-bus-rape-delhi-rush-guns



37 replies, 4769 views

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Arrow 37 replies Author Time Post
Reply Indian bus rape: Delhi sees rush for guns (Original post)
alp227 Jan 2013 OP
secondwind Jan 2013 #1
shireen Jan 2013 #3
Mojorabbit Jan 2013 #6
valerief Jan 2013 #20
JI7 Jan 2013 #21
valerief Jan 2013 #22
onehandle Jan 2013 #18
PavePusher Jan 2013 #37
AgingAmerican Jan 2013 #2
JoeBlowToo Jan 2013 #4
AgingAmerican Jan 2013 #9
JI7 Jan 2013 #11
AgingAmerican Jan 2013 #12
JI7 Jan 2013 #14
AgingAmerican Jan 2013 #15
JI7 Jan 2013 #16
AgingAmerican Jan 2013 #24
JI7 Jan 2013 #25
AgingAmerican Jan 2013 #26
JI7 Jan 2013 #27
Katashi_itto Jan 2013 #29
cosmicone Jan 2013 #28
AgingAmerican Jan 2013 #31
cosmicone Jan 2013 #32
AgingAmerican Jan 2013 #35
cosmicone Jan 2013 #36
cosmicone Jan 2013 #5
AgingAmerican Jan 2013 #8
cosmicone Jan 2013 #13
JI7 Jan 2013 #10
JI7 Jan 2013 #7
newthinking Jan 2013 #17
JI7 Jan 2013 #19
AgingAmerican Jan 2013 #33
cosmicone Jan 2013 #34
marble falls Jan 2013 #23
ileus Jan 2013 #30

Response to alp227 (Original post)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 04:28 PM

1. that's right.... don't change your culture. get yourself a weapon... ugh

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Response to secondwind (Reply #1)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 04:42 PM

3. the protests are a sign that the culture is slowly changing

But if i lived there, i'd want to be armed and properly trained to use the gun. This is about survival.

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Response to shireen (Reply #3)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 04:47 PM

6. I agree. The social changes will take a long time to happen

In the meantime, unless one wants to stay home and hide, being armed even with mace seems to be a good idea along with perhaps going out in groups. I would say with a buddy but that did not help this poor woman. What a horrific tragedy. Hopefully it opens up a national dialog for them and empowers the women there to say,"enough".

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Response to shireen (Reply #3)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 07:54 PM

20. What about the Armed Guards on Every Bus solution our Congress loves so much? nt

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Response to valerief (Reply #20)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 08:00 PM

21. protestors said some police were laughing during vigil for the rape victim

indian cops are corrupt. people can easily buy them off.

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Response to JI7 (Reply #21)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 08:03 PM

22. Sorry. I should have used the sarcasm tag. nt

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Response to secondwind (Reply #1)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 06:25 PM

18. Exactly. If American white men would just eat better and get regular exercise...

...and/or get some Viagra, they wouldn't need guns.

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Response to secondwind (Reply #1)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 12:39 PM

37. Women defending themselves is a culture change.

 

And one I agree with.

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Response to alp227 (Original post)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 04:36 PM

2. It's the caste system

The lower castes are fodder for the upper castes. They can beat, rape, humiliate and torment them at will. It is technically illegal, but widespread. I work with a woman in her 50s who was raised there. She denies there is a caste system. We have a technician who also grew up there. He is in his early 20s. He says the Indians you see in the USA are all from the highest caste. He says those from lower castes cannot leave the country. Dalit or "lower-caste" women are raped simply because of their social status.

The Caste system dooms hundreds of millions to deep poverty. It's pretty disgusting.

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Response to AgingAmerican (Reply #2)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 04:46 PM

4. Do you have info that she was a lower caste than the attackers?

 

Otherwise you are making a claim based on anecdotal evidence.

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Response to JoeBlowToo (Reply #4)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 05:09 PM

9. Im not making any claims about the victim

Im just stating what I have read about the caste system and rape in India.

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Response to AgingAmerican (Reply #9)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 05:11 PM

11. you said "it's the caste system" in reply to this rape case

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Response to JI7 (Reply #11)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 05:22 PM

12. It is the caste system

That keeps India in the socioeconomic dark ages.

The caste system makes certain powerful people untouchable

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Response to AgingAmerican (Reply #12)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 05:27 PM

14. ok, so you weren't referring to the OP case of the girl raped ?

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Response to JI7 (Reply #14)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 05:35 PM

15. This is my point:

Rape is a national problem in India: UN rights chief

It is a form of humiliation in many parts of India. It affects the entire economic strata, and it originated in the caste system.

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Response to AgingAmerican (Reply #15)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 05:36 PM

16. so you think without the caste system there would be no rape ?

you know women have been raped all over the world with/without caste system, in all classes, etc ?

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Response to JI7 (Reply #16)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 11:05 PM

24. ???

I am talking specifically about India, it's epidemic of gang rape, and the caste system's historic role in it. Here is an article specifically about the gang rape epidemic in New Delhi.

Gang-rape epidemic: India mourns victim, proposes chemical castration for offenders

This is causing a huge uproar in India, and it is obvious that some positives will come from this tragedy. Ignoring it or pretending it does not exist only makes it worse.

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Response to AgingAmerican (Reply #24)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 11:39 PM

25. and considering the victim was not from the lower caste what you say makes no sense

rape came about because of the caste system is bs. it's an excuse for rape.

just like that idiot sister of the rapist the the military who raped the girl in iraq. she went on about why are we there .

yeah, caste system is wrong, we shouldn't be in iraq. there are many things.

but don't blame assholes raping women on those things.

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Response to JI7 (Reply #25)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 12:28 AM

26. You can lead a horse to water

But you can't make him drink.

Indian gang-rape victim commits suicide

From the link:
"Inspector General Paramjit Singh Gill said that the teenager had been "running from pillar to post to get her case registered" but officers failed to open a formal inquiry. "One of the officers tried to convince her to withdraw the case," Gill, the police chief for the area, told AFP. One police officer has been sacked and another suspended over their response to the alleged incident.

India’s social structure could be at the heart of this tragic story, as The Hindu newspaper reported that the victim was from a low cast “untouchable” family. Meanwhile her suspected rapists come from an influential caste Hindu family. The names of the accused – Gurpreet Singh, Balwinder Singh and Shinderpal Kaur – were mentioned in her suicide note."

Apparently you, for whatever reason, dont want to face what I'm talking about, so I'm done with you. Have a nice day.

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Response to AgingAmerican (Reply #26)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 12:38 AM

27. the rape is happening to women of all classes, religion etc, it's about anti women

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Response to JI7 (Reply #27)


Response to AgingAmerican (Reply #26)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 05:26 AM

28. You're completely clueless and desperately

trying to justify your original assertion by posting irrelevant links.

Caste system has nothing to do with rape and your statements sound like those of Todd Akin and Richard Mourdock.

Rape is rape ... it is violence against women plain and simple. Caste system has absolutely nothing to do with it.

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Response to cosmicone (Reply #28)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 01:45 PM

31. Im talking about India's rape culture

I find your denial and attempts to rug sweep disturbing. This has been studied extensively in academia, and it originates in the caste system.

Rape culture in India

Cultural differences hide the nature and extent of rape. The two most common forms or rape in India have been describe as Droit du seigneur or authority rape: rape of tenants rape of female employees or the female spouses of male employees. Rape of female subordinates in the workplace as well as caste related and tribal rape. Rape by police, army and the security forces is also seen a specific category. Rape and sexual violence against minors, against wives and within the family is poorly recognised. India's complex social structure is seen to prevent people of lower caste, or from rural India from having access to legal support and the Justice system. The Dalit or untouchable caste have been identified as particularly vulnerable. Bias by police, medical professionals and the Judiciary concerning caste is identified as a factor. Police have been willing to accept bribes from defendants in rape cases, thwarting the legal process.

Rape Cultures in India: Pratiksha Baxi

In 2002 Law Professor Upendra Baxi stated that the political and government systems of India were Rape Culture. Baxi produces a detailed critique of how the governance and politics of India disenfranchise women, prevent them from being able to report sexual violence along with other crime, and concludes that this sets the stage for such violence to be a "perfect crime". It does not require evidence to be suppressed, only that the victim have no recourse before the law.

Baxi stated;

"Rape culture signifies ways of doing party politics and managing governance in which brutal collective sexual assaults on women remain enclosed in contrived orders of impunity.

He stated that he was obliged to speak out under the Indian Constitution which obliged citizens "to renounce practices derogatory to the dignity of women;" Baxi further said;

"The ‘strong’ state makes itself possible by lawless and unconstitutional exertions and endeavours. It fosters practices of national integration that remain deeply and pervasively human rights violative; it emerges for the minorities as an ‘institutionalized riot system’; it remains a - ‘state in search of a nation’ and embodies a resilient rape culture.".

Pull your head out of the sand.

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Response to AgingAmerican (Reply #31)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 03:57 PM

32. There is no rape culture in India

any more than any other country.

In fact, since India has twice as many women as the US has people, the total number of rapes is actually lower than the US.

The issue is lethargic and apathetic response by authorities to the rape complaints and not an epidemic of rapes.

By and large, Indian culture celebrates gender equality. India has elected a woman prime minister twice and a woman president. Several MPs and ministers have been women. India's first foreign minister (Vijayalaxmi Pandit) was a woman, nearly 50 years before Madeleine Albright.

Hindu religion has very powerful goddesses as well as gods. In fact, anything worth possessing, fame (kirti), wealth (laxmi), knowledge (vidya), intelligence (buddhi), education (saraswati), power (shakti) is a feminine noun with a female goddess associated with it.

What you are implying is that Indian males are somehow more prone to rape a woman than other men in other cultures which is HOGWASH.

I grew up in India and manage three subsidiaries here. In fact, I'm in India right now and what you are ranting about with a two bit internet knowledge and using wildly political links shows that you are clueless. You may equally believe that a Nigerian dictator has left you $128 million and it is all yours after you pay a small fee of say $100K. It is on the internet so it must be true!



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Response to cosmicone (Reply #32)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 06:12 PM

35. You totally ignored the crux of what I am saying

You pretend caste violence and rape does not happen, especially in a large city like New Dehli, where there have been 36 documented gang rapes since December 16th. You seek to cover it up, pretend it isnt a problem and pretend instead that it is an attack on all Indian males. It is useless trying to have a rational conversation with you on the subject.

Have a nice day!

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Response to AgingAmerican (Reply #35)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 08:08 PM

36. Several people told you that the rapes in Delhi

have NOTHING AT ALL TO DO WITH CASTE.

You found perfunctory, superfluous, banal. mundane and loquacious quotes to justify your position at which you failed miserably. A more rational person would have deferred to people who have first hand knowledge due to being here.

Have a nice day as well


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Response to AgingAmerican (Reply #2)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 04:46 PM

5. I wish you would study a bit more before commenting.

The girl who was raped belonged to the upper caste. The caste system is a vestige of the past and its ill effects remain only in the deep rural areas. No one else follows it. Remember, 58% of India's population is under 30 and grew up without strong feelings about the caste system. This is very similar to how the younger people in the US are more open for gay rights and support gay marriage equality.

The chief justice of India's supreme court is a former "dalit".

While it is true that most Indian-Americans are from the upper castes, it is because of an unfair quota system that reserves >78% of the educational and job opportunities to the so called dalits and they have to go abroad to pursue higher studies. However, I know of many former "dalits" who are prospering in California and one of them also has a very successful IT start-up.

Finally, the caste system was never economic. Most Americans have a wrong notion that upper caste means rich and lower caste means poor. This is not true. It only had to do with social status and was never about wealth. Many lower caste people were far far richer than the upper caste brahmins throughout history.

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Response to cosmicone (Reply #5)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 05:07 PM

8. The caste system is socio-economic

Documenting Caste Discrimination in India

Caste-Based Discrimination in India Is Illegal and Widespread

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Response to AgingAmerican (Reply #8)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 05:24 PM

13. Like I said ...

it is sporadic and mainly in deep rural areas where attitudes will take time to change.

India has its own Mississippis and Alabamas.

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Response to cosmicone (Reply #5)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 05:10 PM

10. exactly, the Victim was from a well off family as are many of the protestors

but these people are not spoiled upper class brahim types . they come from middle class or upper and pretty well off families . but they are using any privilege they have to educate and get jobs .

in fact most of the protestors probably have no idea what caste they come from. just because that's not how people live any more.

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Response to AgingAmerican (Reply #2)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 05:05 PM

7. this is not true, indians in the US are not all from high caste, they are ones who have ties

to Indians who live overseas and are citizens of other countries. a lot of this goes back to the days of the British Rule when indians were sent to work and live in many of their other colonies.

these indians who were now citizens of other countries sent for family members to come live with them in UK and other places. and of course you end up getting other ties through marriage.

that's how many indians left india and are now living all over the world.

in more recent years it's of course due to things like H1B visas.

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Response to JI7 (Reply #7)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 06:15 PM

17. It is generally true, but hopefully changing

I first became aware of this when told by an Indian colleague that it is still the case that the upper/middle classes (effectively what used to be the higher castes) are the ones indeed able to come here.

As higher education becomes more available to those who still must contend with the past/present caste system.

Educational and income mobility have been increasing due to government efforts, but that mobility is still mostly moving about 1 level per generation (out of 5 broken out in studies) - when it occurs. So what mobility that is occurring is going from bottom (level one) to 2cd from bottom (level 2) etc.
So the lowest castes are still not nearly at the levels of income or education that they have these kind of opportunities available. Generally indeed most Indian immigrants were from the higher castes, as they have access to the educational levels and resources to gain the opportunities to do so.

Family immigrants will have tended to have been from the same level as the original immigrant, so it doesn't make sense to say that because many immigrants are family based that they may be from a different education/income strata.

http://faculty.arts.ubc.ca/vhnatkovska/Research/Intergen_revrev2.pdf

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Response to newthinking (Reply #17)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 06:26 PM

19. i guess depends on what you mean by high caste

these people were farmers, small business types. not the wealthy ones who live in palaces. these people wouldn't have any need to work the fields and offices for the British since they were well off.

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Response to JI7 (Reply #19)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 04:03 PM

33. There are Drahmins as poor as any Dahlit

n/t

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Response to AgingAmerican (Reply #33)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 04:41 PM

34. Drahmins? LMAO

You really really need to learn a lot more before you start commenting on stuff you are clueless about.

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Response to alp227 (Original post)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 10:50 PM

23. What happens in a culture that practices female infanticde/abortions of female fetuses, shows ....

extreme violence to women and murder of women to the point that the ratio of men to women is way out of whack?

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Response to alp227 (Original post)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 07:39 AM

30. Don't they realize guns kill people?

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