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Sat Dec 29, 2012, 08:32 PM

 

A depraved world: FBI agents wage a stressful battle against child pornography

Last edited Fri Feb 1, 2013, 10:40 AM - Edit history (1)

Source: By Jason Grant/The Star-Ledger

December 28, 2012 at 12:15 PM, updated December 29, 2012 at 1:43 PM

NEWARK — Tim Ryan climbed from his FBI-issued van and started toward the beige-brick building that holds roomfuls of forensic evidence from across the state: blood samples, human skeletal fragments, markings from tools used in crimes, ballistics results.

He swiped his security card and passed through several doors. Then he walked through long corridors before stepping inside the forensic computer lab.

On a table in front of him sat a DVD. It had two simple words scrawled across it in black.

Baby Pics.



Read more: http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2012/12/a_depraved_world_fbi_agents_wa.html



UPDATE:

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2013/01/state_attorney_general-backed.html

Attorney General-drafted bill would strengthen N.J. child pornography laws
By Jason Grant/The Star-Ledger
on January 31, 2013 at 6:00 AM, updated January 31, 2013 at 11:59 AM


...O’Toole said he'd decided in December to propose a bill after reading a story in The Star-Ledger (above) that reminded him, he said, of the awful impact the crimes have on children’s, parents’ and investigators’ lives.

When Chiesa found out about his support for stronger laws in New Jersey, they soon teamed up, O’Toole said.

80 replies, 14946 views

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Reply A depraved world: FBI agents wage a stressful battle against child pornography (Original post)
proverbialwisdom Dec 2012 OP
LiberalEsto Dec 2012 #1
uppityperson Dec 2012 #2
Scairp Dec 2012 #38
AldoLeopold Dec 2012 #3
XemaSab Dec 2012 #6
bettyellen Dec 2012 #10
reACTIONary Dec 2012 #12
bettyellen Dec 2012 #13
lunatica Dec 2012 #25
bettyellen Dec 2012 #32
MindPilot Dec 2012 #29
bettyellen Dec 2012 #31
MindPilot Dec 2012 #33
lunatica Dec 2012 #34
bettyellen Dec 2012 #39
progressoid Dec 2012 #54
Odin2005 Dec 2012 #4
Skittles Dec 2012 #5
cliffordu Dec 2012 #16
Skittles Dec 2012 #17
cliffordu Dec 2012 #18
SharonAnn Dec 2012 #37
freshwest Dec 2012 #7
malz Dec 2012 #8
McCamy Taylor Dec 2012 #9
caseymoz Dec 2012 #11
proverbialwisdom Dec 2012 #76
caseymoz Jan 2013 #77
UnrepentantLiberal Dec 2012 #19
freedom fighter jh Dec 2012 #20
MindPilot Dec 2012 #28
lunatica Dec 2012 #35
axollot Dec 2012 #47
booley Dec 2012 #51
geek tragedy Dec 2012 #52
JackRiddler Dec 2012 #58
geek tragedy Dec 2012 #66
JackRiddler Dec 2012 #68
geek tragedy Dec 2012 #71
JackRiddler Dec 2012 #72
geek tragedy Dec 2012 #74
JackRiddler Dec 2012 #75
booley Dec 2012 #65
geek tragedy Dec 2012 #67
proverbialwisdom Dec 2012 #55
lunatica Dec 2012 #57
proverbialwisdom Dec 2012 #64
geek tragedy Dec 2012 #45
davidn3600 Dec 2012 #48
geek tragedy Dec 2012 #53
davidn3600 Dec 2012 #56
Upward Jan 2013 #78
proverbialwisdom Dec 2012 #60
proverbialwisdom Dec 2012 #61
jbm Dec 2012 #73
Odin2005 Jan 2013 #79
JohnnyRingo Dec 2012 #14
freedom fighter jh Dec 2012 #21
Sheldon Cooper Dec 2012 #26
freedom fighter jh Dec 2012 #27
lunatica Dec 2012 #36
freedom fighter jh Dec 2012 #43
Sheldon Cooper Dec 2012 #46
Dash87 Dec 2012 #59
Loudly Dec 2012 #15
WinkyDink Dec 2012 #23
Loudly Dec 2012 #30
WinkyDink Dec 2012 #22
bitchkitty Dec 2012 #24
davidn3600 Dec 2012 #49
ileus Dec 2012 #40
YayArea Dec 2012 #41
seabeyond Dec 2012 #42
Bad_Ronald Dec 2012 #44
proverbialwisdom Dec 2012 #50
proverbialwisdom Dec 2012 #62
xfundy Dec 2012 #63
wicket Dec 2012 #69
ProgressiveProfessor Dec 2012 #70
proverbialwisdom Jan 2013 #80

Response to proverbialwisdom (Original post)

Sat Dec 29, 2012, 08:38 PM

1. Great journalism

The child porn industry is sickening.

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Response to proverbialwisdom (Original post)

Sat Dec 29, 2012, 08:48 PM

2. I can not imagine doing that work. Quite an article there, my heart goes out to those agents.

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Response to uppityperson (Reply #2)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 01:52 PM

38. I know

Just thinking about this subject makes me want to peel my skin off I feel so dirty. How do you get those images out of your head? I could never do this. I would go on some kind of vigilante hunt and pick these fuckers off one by one. Depraved doesn't begin to describe it.

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Response to proverbialwisdom (Original post)

Sat Dec 29, 2012, 08:51 PM

3. I'd lose it if I had to do that job

Noway man. That guy's gonna need some serious therapy.

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Response to AldoLeopold (Reply #3)

Sat Dec 29, 2012, 09:53 PM

6. I don't think therapy can take that away

What's the therapist supposed to say? It's okay?

It's not okay and it's never going to be okay.

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Response to XemaSab (Reply #6)

Sat Dec 29, 2012, 11:13 PM

10. my brother had to watch child rape videos, so they could count how many acts to charge the abuser

with and I think it just broke his heart. He is just regular NYPD.

I am incredibly proud of him, he bent the laws and called out every favor in the book to get a search warrant executed and not allow the child's Mom or the perp to make phone calls to have someone destroy the evidence before they got in there. They had to get a dog handling team and that took extra hours and another favor.

He was going to charge the Mom with something if she insisted on leaving the precint or making a call. Which is unheard of. But she was defending her man and calling that poor little girl a liar. It was that difficult to bust that fucker, even though the girl reported it, and when they got there, they found a video camera set up and pointed at the bed.

I think it was his best day on the NYPD, and that's saying a lot. He is an amazing man. But I know it hurt him very bad, to have to look at that. It was worse than 9/11 for him.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #10)

Sat Dec 29, 2012, 11:57 PM

12. Give him my thanks. (nt)

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Response to reACTIONary (Reply #12)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 12:00 AM

13. I sure will.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #10)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 09:23 AM

25. I'm very grateful for men like your brother

Every good parent is. He's a true hero in the full sense of the word. His work stops abuse of the kids who have been abused and keeps abuse from happening to many other kids.

He makes all the difference in people's lives and that is always good.

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Response to lunatica (Reply #25)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 01:08 PM

32. he really wasn't ready or trained for something like this, although I don't know if you could be

i thought it was pretty bad that they forced him to watch it. i think he could have "given" the arrest to someone else but he wouldn't want to ask anybody to do that either. he had spent time with the little girl earlier that day- she had gone into school and reported it, and he went with a female officer to bring her in.
it's a sick technicality we never consider, but yeah, someone's got to watch that horror in order to stop it. I know it was his proudest day, but it also took a piece of him.



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Response to bettyellen (Reply #10)


Response to MindPilot (Reply #29)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 12:28 PM

31. my brother is the devil because he's a policeman? Um, no. He's one of the kindest do-gooder types I

have ever met in my entire life. He hates to watch people suffer. He could barely talk about what that poor girl went through, it was so tough for him. Most of us have no clue about the horrors LE gets exposed to in a busy city. It is inhuman.

You however, get off on posting nasty inflammatory bullshit. So yeah, he's nicer, and a whole fuck ton braver than any keyboard commando.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #31)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 01:10 PM

33. I post the truth.

To you it is inflamatory bullshit. One day you will wake up to the reality of the police state.

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Response to MindPilot (Reply #33)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 01:37 PM

34. It's only your truth

He isn't posting about police in general at all. He's posting specifically about his brother, who evidently is doing a job you think the police shouldn't be doing. Your opinion is a poor reflection on you.

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Response to lunatica (Reply #34)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 02:02 PM

39. thanks, that misanthropic B+W thinking ain't going to convince anyone to be an anarchist

who already isn't.
There's good and bad in everyone, and that little girl was lucky she met a cop who pulled out all the stops, and was respected enough to call in a bunch of favors that day. If he hadn't been such a stand up guy his whole career and convinced people to work a little faster or a little later than normal, they would not have gotten the evidence needed.
It;'s fucked up that he had to risk depriving the mom of her civil rights- maybe screwing up his own career in the process, but he was ready to do it because that Mom made her intentions clear. Other cops were not willing to charge her that day and have blowback. Life is complicated, doing the right thing isn't always clear or easy. But it's clear to me, my brother was a hero that day. That girls nightmare ended only because one person went the extra mile. Would that we would all step up like that.


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Response to MindPilot (Reply #33)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 05:29 PM

54. I only know two police officers personally.

And neither would "get off on hurting people and watching others suffer". One doesn't even like to carry a gun.

Yes, there are bad ones out there, but the entire police force is not a club of violent fascists.

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Response to proverbialwisdom (Original post)

Sat Dec 29, 2012, 09:26 PM

4. That is a job I could never do.

Jesus Christ!

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Response to proverbialwisdom (Original post)

Sat Dec 29, 2012, 09:32 PM

5. why do so many men want to fuck kids?

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Response to Skittles (Reply #5)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 02:27 AM

16. I don't know, Skittles.

I worked with street kids for a while, and almost every one had been raped by an adult (the vast majority close relatives or family friends) and if there were ONE group of people I'd lock up forever, it would be men who fuck kids.

Every.Fucking.One.

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Response to cliffordu (Reply #16)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 03:06 AM

17. it creeps me out that "normal" guys get excited over grown women dressed like school girls

it is sick

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Response to Skittles (Reply #17)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 03:14 AM

18. Glad I'm subnormal

I like women who look like women. Grown women.

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Response to Skittles (Reply #5)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 01:52 PM

37. And why are mass shootings usually committed by men? Is there a relationship?

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Response to proverbialwisdom (Original post)

Sat Dec 29, 2012, 10:08 PM

7. Sometimes this is the only way to lock the perps up. If their victim is disabled, unable to testify,

the search for online child pornography are all the law has left to go after them. The victim is not believed until the video is shown. The abuse of some victims is horrific and not just sexual. They never recover cognitively or emotionally. If there were no detectives willing to wade in this sewer, the perps will get away with it.

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Response to proverbialwisdom (Original post)

Sat Dec 29, 2012, 10:14 PM

8. Alyssa, Britney, Miley, Elle,

 

slouching toward....

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Response to proverbialwisdom (Original post)

Sat Dec 29, 2012, 10:19 PM

9. Then there is the guy in jail for buying comic books that hurt no one.

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Response to McCamy Taylor (Reply #9)

Sat Dec 29, 2012, 11:18 PM

11. Yes, he got about 30 years, didn't he?


For thought-crime.

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Response to caseymoz (Reply #11)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 04:14 PM

76. Got a name? Incomplete story, likely.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_status_of_cartoon_pornography_depicting_minors
See US section - no case involves only comic book art.


BTW, as far as I know, Protect Act of 2003 has absolutely nothing to do with PROTECT ACT 2008 or 2012 or Protect.org (established in 2004).

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Response to proverbialwisdom (Reply #76)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 04:02 AM

77. Christopher Handley


http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/?p=5536

But I stand corrected. I misread my initial source:

http://bradhicks.livejournal.com/tag/forbidden%20lore

I thought Handley was going to receive the maximum sentence of 15 years prison, three years probation and a lifetime on the sex offender registry. In the four years I read about the case, my memory had degraded. All I remembered was a lot of years (about 30, give or take.)

The next year, he was actually sentenced to six months according the Wikipedia article you gave, and one of its sources:

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2010/02/obscene-us-manga-collector-jailed-6-months/

Therefore, I was wrong on most counts. However, it seems Handley's case did involve only comic book art: Manga.

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Response to McCamy Taylor (Reply #9)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 03:25 AM

19. What was that about?

 

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Response to McCamy Taylor (Reply #9)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 07:22 AM

20. Some say drawings are a harmless outlet.

Others say such things encourage evil action.

I don't know what to think.

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Response to McCamy Taylor (Reply #9)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 11:05 AM

28. Looking at a picture of the act is worse than the act itself.

Child porn is the only crime where looking at a picture of a criminal act is considered more severe than the crime itself. Someone who has "child porn"on their computer will likely spend more time in prison than someone who actually molested a a real child. Even if you download a file that you discover is something horrible and you delete it, that is no defense. In fact, deleting the file will get you an "upward departure" meaning your sentence will be increased because you used your "computer skills" to destroy evidence.

This child porn hysteria is just that, hysteria. It is the updated version of the "ritual satanic abuse" hoax of a couple decades ago. The FBI is not the least bit interested in "the children" since they never actually take down a distribution site or go after the Catholic Church.

Since the drug war is beginning to wind down, the feds need a good source of bodies to keep the for-profit prisons full. and what better group than those who can be branded with a "sex offender" label. They get even less quarter than the "druggies", and the raids, busts, surveillance, property seizures, and Internet monitoring can continue unabated.

Make no mistake, the primary goal here is not protecting children, it is and has always been to put as many people in prison as possible.

Just an example how deep this stupidity goes, it is now a law in California that any IT worker can be held criminally liable for child porn on any system they touch even if they did not know it was there.

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Response to MindPilot (Reply #28)


Response to lunatica (Reply #35)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 03:30 PM

47. Thank you! That's exactly how that screed sounded to me too!

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Response to lunatica (Reply #35)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 04:15 PM

51. he wants the terrorists to win

His seemingly bottomless hatred of our soldiers and President Bush gives too much license to some real sick terrorist predators.

Clearly he need to stop scaring Americans with phantoms of lost liberties...

Oh wait... you're talking about something else, weren't you?

Sorry, I have heard your same argument applied by the right to terrorists and anarchists and criminals and drug users and civil rights activists and jews and gays and pretty much anyone that has ever (rightly or wrongly) been cast as a threat to society. It's such a classic authoritarian response that I guess it's hard sometimes to keep them separated.

I guess I got confused.

Anyway, I am sure the point where you show that what the guy says is factually wrong will be coming up any minute now. You know, the part where you show mindpilot is wrong and don't just engage in an ad hominem attack.

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Response to booley (Reply #51)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 04:21 PM

52. He was objecting to anti-child porn laws and has a substantial knowledge of what

kind of child porn offense will get a person prison time.

The only people conversant in such details are generally prosecutors and perps.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #52)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 09:10 PM

58. WTF?!

"The only people conversant in such details are generally prosecutors and perps."


And people who read. O man, what a comment.

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Response to JackRiddler (Reply #58)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 11:17 AM

66. The following is common knowledge?

Even if you download a file that you discover is something horrible and you delete it, that is no defense. In fact, deleting the file will get you an "upward departure" meaning your sentence will be increased because you used your "computer skills" to destroy evidence.


I'm an attorney, and I spend far too much time online, but I've never heard of this.

The poster used scare quotes to refer to child porn and claimed that child porn is essentially a form of persecution and mass hysteria.

The old saying that if you throw a rock in the air, the one that yelps is a dog applies.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #66)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 11:44 AM

68. You are using online witchhunt logic.

After some reading, I happen to know enough about bank fraud to write 3 paragraphs about it.

By your logic, I must be intending to commit bank fraud! Only potential lawbreakers have a knowledge of the law!

Why don't you stick to the topic?

True or False: If you click on a link or otherwise get pictures considered illegal on your computer without your knowledge, are you considered to have committed the crime of possession? If you delete said pictures soon as you discover them, is this destruction of evidence? Have prosecutors pursued such cases?

You're a lawyer, so please refute it if it's not true.

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Response to JackRiddler (Reply #68)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 12:06 PM

71. A quick look indicates that receipt and possession of child porn

are knowledge-level offenses, meaning that you had to know it was child porn when you downloaded it for it to be a crime.

Also, deleting a file immediately after downloading is not an upward departure--you can read about upward departures here

http://www.ussc.gov/Legal/Primers/Primer_Departure_and_Variance.pdf

See page 3.


The post in question sounded like either (a) one of those lame pop up ads for secure browsers/data scrubbing or (b) a "the dog ate my homework" excuse from the NAMBLA crowd. People who download inadvertently and then delete are not in violation of federal law.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #71)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 12:39 PM

72. The problem is defining the difference.

People who download inadvertently and then delete are not in violation of federal law.


They're not, unless a prosecutor decides they are. Then they can fight it in court but already pre-condemned as the worst people in the world, etc. And the law covering IT pros you've mentioned is also an invitation to trouble. How do they decide what qualifies for the reporting requirement if it's ambiguous? What trouble are they getting themselves into if they don't, and what troubles can they bring down on people in the ambiguous cases?

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Response to JackRiddler (Reply #72)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 01:29 PM

74. That's the case with any criminal statute.

Legalizing child porn is the worst possible answer.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #74)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 01:52 PM

75. Who said legalize?!

Talk about strawmen. The production of this material is rape. "Possession" however takes on a different aspect in an age of electronic reproduction and people downloading thousands of images almost incidentally. Add hysteria and the erosion of due process in an age of fear. The real perps will protect themselves, accidental ones will be found. Like there's no prosecutorial abuse? Few statutes invite confusion and abuse like this one, where people react very readily just to the concept with calls for medieval punishments.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #52)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 01:02 AM

65. yes only child molesters know this information

.. and anyone who taken the time to look it up.

You know, like 90% of us do with the issues we get opinions about, even when said issue hasn't affected us personally.

Which might be why I have knowledge of how screwed up drug laws are.. and have yet to actually do any illegal substances.

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Response to booley (Reply #65)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 11:23 AM

67. Those who vociferously denounce criminalizing child porn

usually have an agenda, yes.

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Response to booley (Reply #51)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 05:42 PM

55. A strong rebuttal could be written. Providing sources requires effort & time, I decided against it.

 

Comment directed to lunatica by booley:

"Anyway, I am sure the point where (you) show that what the guy says is factually wrong will be coming up any minute now. You know, the part where (you) show mindpilot is wrong and don't just engage in an ad hominem attack."



However, here's a simple start.

POST 28. ...Just an example how deep this stupidity goes, it is now a law in California that any IT worker can be held criminally liable for child porn on any system they touch even if they did not know it was there.


http://www.ncsl.org/issues-research/telecom/child-pornography-reporting-requirements.aspx

Child Pornography Reporting Requirements for Computer Technicians and Information Technology Workers
As of October 19, 2012


At least nine states--Arkansas, California, Illinois, Missouri, North Carolina, Oklahoma, Oregon, South Carolina, and South Dakota--have enacted laws requiring computer technicians or information technology workers to report child pornography if they encounter it in the scope of their work. The laws don't require technicians or service providers to search for the illegal material, only to report it if they find it. Similar laws apply to film developers who encounter child pornography on the job. Michigan law provides confidentiality and immunity from civil liability for computer technicians who report child pornography encountered in the scope of their work. (See statutory excerpts below.)

Critics charge that this type of law unfairly transfers law enforcement duties to individuals who may not be qualified to handle evidence or determine what constitutes child pornography. Supporters say reporting mandates for photo labs have proven effective, and that similar laws for IT workers will help combat child pornography on the Internet.

PLEASE NOTE: The National Conference of State Legislatures (NCSL) serves state legislators and their staff. This site provides comparative information only and should not be construed as legal advice. NCSL cannot provide assistance with individual cases.

State Statutes (Excerpts) at link.

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Response to booley (Reply #51)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 06:15 PM

57. Did I insult your pal?

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Response to booley (Reply #51)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 11:07 PM

64. Here's a second unsupported sentence.

 

Last edited Mon Dec 31, 2012, 11:25 AM - Edit history (1)

POST 28. The FBI is not the least bit interested in "the children" since they never actually take down a distribution site or go after the Catholic Church.


Easy counterexamples.

http://articles.cnn.com/2011-08-03/justice/us.child.porn.ring_1_sexual-abuse-bulletin-board-images-and-videos?_s=PM:CRIME

August 03, 2011|By Terry Frieden, CNN Justice Producer

More than 50 members of a child pornography ring who engaged in what authorities describe as "horrific" and "unspeakable" crimes have been arrested for sexually exploiting children from 12 years old to as young as infants.

Top federal law enforcement officials say agents busted the global online pornography ring following an intense international investigation that began in 2009. The ring, based in the United States, reached across five continents and 14 countries.

Seventy-two members of the online site called Dreamboard have been charged in the United States. Officials said 52 of them have been arrested in the U.S. and abroad. The identities of the remaining 20 are unknown at this time.

<>

Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano said, "To give you an example of the scope of this forum, the capture and analysis of the forum revealed that the board may have been the vehicle for the distribution of up to 123 terabytes of child pornography, which is roughly equivalent to nearly 16,000 DVDs. ... Additional media recovered from the targets arrested in the United States alone has been found to contain over one million images of child pornography."


http://www.eurekalert.org/features/doe/2010-11/drnl-jpo112910.php

Jaguar pounces on child predators

Oak Ridge supercomputer will help identify producers of child pornography


Consumers of child pornography break the law when they download photos and videos from file-sharing networks. But police are more concerned with the porn producers uploading the files. Every new posting means a child is in harm's way. To accelerate the acquisition of information needed to arrest child predators, law enforcement officers have teamed with data analytics experts at Oak Ridge National Laboratory (ORNL) for a project that will use Jaguar, one of the world's fastest supercomputers, to speedily analyze the activities on file-sharing networks that pinpoint porn producers.

"A consumer can be put in jail, but we'd rather go after the producer because there's a child we can rescue," said ORNL principal investigator Robert Patton, who develops algorithms to search, count, and characterize data files so similar information can be clustered for faster processing. Patton works with Internet Crimes Against Children (ICAC) task forces from local, state, and federal law enforcement agencies to find new files entering file-sharing networks. "There is a likelihood new material was just generated," Patton said. "We want to know who put it out there."

Patton's project uses clustering algorithms that speed the search for a needle in a haystack of data. Clustering algorithms are employed in diverse applications, from finding flaws in the electronic controls of nuclear power plants to tracking suspected terrorists.

Patton has received funding from an industry sponsor, which applies the algorithm for cybersecurity, and an allocation during a 1-year period spanning 2010 and 2011 of 1 million processor hours on Jaguar, a Department of Energy Office of Science supercomputer housed at the Oak Ridge Leadership Computing Facility. Jaguar is mainly used by scientists and engineers requiring maximal computing power to solve large scientific simulation problems in the shortest times possible. Patton has used part of the allocation for initial runs to test some clustering algorithms and later will use the remainder for further development and testing using data provided by law enforcement.

<>


Why civil rather than criminal cases are pursued against individuals in the Catholc Church? Don't know, maybe related to this?

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/RL31253.pdf

Statutes of Limitation in Federal Criminal Cases: An Overview
Charles Doyle
Senior Specialist in American Public Law
October 1, 2012

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Response to MindPilot (Reply #28)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 03:17 PM

45. You seem to be quite an authority on child porn laws and are outraged

at them.

This certainly leads a rational person to certain conclusions . . .

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Response to MindPilot (Reply #28)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 03:31 PM

48. It highlights how incompetent the justice system really is

Everyone applauds and cheers when you arrest someone that had child porn on their computer. And that's great... you get the pervert in jail. But where is the end game? What did you accomplish? The guy that created that child porn is still out there creating more. And he won't care that one of the end users are in jail. There are millions of pedophiles in the world just like him.

I understand the philosophy of "eliminating demand." The problem is that it just doesn't work. It has never worked. Attempting to win the drug war by eliminating demand has massively failed. Attempting to end prostitution by eliminating demand has failed. Attempting to stop child porn by eliminating demand has failed. This is like trying to get rid of a cockroach infestation by killing the roaches as you see them. You will never get rid of them this way. You have to forget about these roaches that show themselves and go for the nest.

Just like in the drug war. We are never going to win by arresting pot heads. We are not going to win by arresting the coke head. You have to get the dealers, the traffickers, the producers, and the cartels. If you can't or don't want to go that far...then you admit defeat. You lose the battle. Simple as that. You cannot win this any other way.
Same with child porn. We will never win if all law enforcement does is spend every waking minute on arresting downloaders.

The police and justice system in this country have no common sense. It has become much too mechanical. It lacks any ability to adjust to a changing world. The criminals will change and modify their ways continuously to always stay a step ahead. And our system always seems to be miles behind.

We have the largest and most expensive prison population in the world and absolutely nothing to show for it.

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Response to davidn3600 (Reply #48)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 04:24 PM

53. Drugs are a victimless crime. Child porn isn't. People who buy child porn

should be put in prison, and treated as likely future sex offenders. They are part and parcel of the system of evil.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #53)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 05:53 PM

56. Im not comparing crimes, im talking about how badly crime is fought in the United States

A well-known criminology statistic is that about 20% of all criminals account for 80% of all criminal activity. Where does law enforcement concentrate on? Not on that 20% of criminals.

The real criminals are ones the police will never touch. As someone already stated down below, those criminals are far too powerful.

Notice the people they arrest for child porn or any sex crime. Or you know what....expand that... lets say ANY crime. It's almost never rich men. It's hardly ever politicians. It's never CEOs. Sure they may bust one here or there every once in a blue moon when the misdeed becomes obvious. But the disproportion is massive between the socioeconomic classes as to who gets arrested in this country. 60% of the prison population is african-american despite them being only 13% of the country's population. 70% of prisoners are in poverty at the time of arrest!

Anyway Im drifting off topic and can go on and on about this. There are entire college course about this. But I think I made the point that the system really isnt accomplishing anything. I understand people want these pedophiles off the streets. That's all good and some may be abusing kids. But please understand that they are only a sliver of the problem. These people the police catch are not the big-time guys. These guys are at the bottom of the totem pole.

This map shows you the percentage of people in prison per 1,000 citiziens. It's easy to see we are leading the world as far the size of our prison population.
?w=600
?w=600
?w=600

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Response to davidn3600 (Reply #56)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 09:45 AM

78. Server Hosts and Bankers Get Rich Off This Stuff

The early consumer internet was built on profits from porn.

That money has to get to and from bank accounts, somehow.

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Response to MindPilot (Reply #28)


Response to MindPilot (Reply #28)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 10:14 PM

61. Please see PROTECT.ORG: Why sentences are the way they are.

 

http://www.protect.org/arrests-sentencing/1207-why-sentences-are-the-way-they-are

Why sentences are the way they are

PROTECT

Wednesday, 01 December 2010 09:00


As America gets more serious about prosecuting child exploitation, some defense lawyers, judges and academics claim penalties for child pornography possession are too high.

Many offenders are getting more time behind bars for possessing images of child sexual abuse than they would get for actual abuse, say critics.

Well, state penalties for sex crimes against children are too low. That doesn't mean that federal penalties for child exploitation are too high!

Traditionally, politically-influential prosecutors lobbied to keep sex crimes penalties low, to give themselves "options" in difficult cases. Prosecuting child pornography is slam-dunk easy, so the pressure to weaken those penalties hasn't been as great.

For PROTECT's Stronger Penalties Campaign page, click here: http://www.protect.org/component/content/article/164-national/1106-increase-penalties


RELATED:
http://www.vachss.com/av_dispatches/parade_articles.html

http://www.protect.org/tools/articles/8-articles/1045-raising-the-stakes-for-child-pornography--protects-exclusive-interview-with-andrew-vachss

http://www.vachss.com/av_articles.html

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Response to MindPilot (Reply #28)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 12:59 PM

73. people aren't really familiar with the justice system in this country

I hear what you're saying, and it breaks my heart to see the responses you've received. I understand it though. Several years ago my son received a ten year distribution sentence for what amounted to some pocket lint marijuana and a scale. He was guilty. He and some friends had bought 2 pounds of marijuana,(their first time at buying a quantity) split it among each other, and he had sold a half ounce to a friend. The friend got caught and gave my sons name. My son refused to give up other names, he fit the profile (i.e. working class and owned a skateboard), we live in a red state/rural county area, soooo...at 19 he was off to prison--even though he had never been in any trouble, had been employed at the same place since he was 16, was a threat to no one, and was going to college and on track to be a good citizen. Now he is out, but scarred in nuanced ways that take to long to explain. There is no path back to being whole again. He faces thousands of collateral consequences and obstacles to employment that fly far beneath the radar of the average american. I remember going to visit him when he finally reached his 'home prison', and my mind couldn't wrap itself around the fact that I was looking at my son. Finally, I realized that his blond hair was black and the texture had changed, His eyelids were oddly changed--weird stuff. After the visit, I asked some of the other prison moms about it, and they asked how long he had been without sun. It had been 14 months. It is as though the state takes your child and buries him alive. They are hungry, locked in 6' by 10' foot cells, sometimes scared, deprived of sunlight until their features change--because of who they are and where they live.

Because of my son, I serve on our states criminal justice task force. I work with reentry and restorative justice programs, run a family support group, and rage at the evil that comes from the system. One of the moms I met is the parent of a young man who at 17 downloaded child porn. A year later, he was off at college when the FBI raided their home, took the computer, arrested the son, and he received a three year sentence. There is no evidence that his venture into child porn was anything more than a temporary teen-age venture, but his life is over. Unless we get smarter, he'll always be a sex offender, and anyone who has spent time faces a lifetime of consequences most of us can't even imagine.

One of the things that makes me most angry, is the generational and society damage that comes from 40 years of the legal system living in its own bubble, and the public being totally oblivious until it directly impacts them. Jury trials in this country used to provide some balance, but now the penalty for asking for a jury trial is so high, people who understand the system take a plea even if they are innocent. Police practices are never challenged, over prosecution never recognized, and ridiculous laws never questioned. When someone is sent to prison, the damage is generational, usually staying with the descendants for at least 100 years. Communities with high incarceration rates can expect increases in poverty, crime, and all the other social ills.

It works like this--I have been working with one young man who has essentially been homeless all of his life. His mother spent time in prison for various drug charges, and he grew up wherever he could live, His educational background is sketchy, his work history is practically non-existent, and he has some minor drug issues. On the plus side, he's inherently a nice guy who wants to succeed--although he doesn't know how--or believe that he can. A few years ago the police caught him with a small amount of marijuana. For most, a marijuana possession charge wouldn't be a jail sentence, but we incarcerate social problems, and "Chris" fit the criteria. At the time, he owned a car that ran, and had a part time job. He was given a 90 day sentence and a misdemeanor, released, but now had no car, no part-time job, and had lost ties with his 'places to live'. It was January. "Chris" is no thief by nature, but he saw some jewelry in an unlocked car (the jewelry turned out to be worthless) and stole it. The owner of the vehicle saw him, shot at him (no charges filed for attempted murder of a petty theft, of course) and "Chris" wound up with a low level felony and a short prison sentence. But now he has a felony. Job corps, the military, and the other programs that might have provided him an option are off the table. What made Chris angry about the whole thing, was that our state has a law that the prison must require people incarcerated to get a GED while they're in, so Chris was actually excited about a chance to get his GED. But the prison waived their requirement to give him the opportunity, because his time there was so short (only because he should never have been sent there in the first place).

Chris will be O.K. What I've learned over the years is that the antedote to our legal system is awareness. Lots of caring people in my community now understand that there is great harm that has to be countered, and one of them managed to find Chris a great job opportunity a mentor, and some hope. And lest anyone think there is anything even remotely equal in our system, I can give you endless cases of middle and upper class kids in my town who really were engaged in major distribution or other legal issues--and received drug court which means no lasting record. Ironically, if the system were truly interested in accurate profiling, their target would be the middle and upper class white males.

I could go on for hours, because I believe our legal system is our current human atrocity, but it hides behind a total lack of awareness--even in the legal system itself. We're the liberals. We can't afford to be oblivious.

Just as an added thought--many people reading this may think that people like Chris would rather be in prison than homeless. I'm not going to presume it's never true--but it's never been true of anyone I've met. Having said that the days of 'three hots and a cot' are gone. We serve 'calorie based' meals which vary from location to location but often leave the prisoner close to starving. And most places only give one hot meal. The menu at our county jail is 18 apple jacks or cheerios, a helf cup milk, and a single slice of fruit for breakfast, a hot lunch equivalant to what they would serve in a grade school lunch program, and four pieces of bread and two thin slices of meat for dinner. And it's not free. When my son was released, he was sent a bill from the county for 7,385.00 , and 72,000 from the state. They call it 'room and board'. He will likely not haveto pay the state, but the county will confiscate any state tax refunds he receives until the debt is paid.

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Response to MindPilot (Reply #28)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 12:35 PM

79. This is the most vile and disgusting post I've seen in a while.

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Response to proverbialwisdom (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 12:14 AM

14. I'll never understand...

what it is about children, especially prepubescent children, that could possibly excite a man (or a woman). I see a child and I don't see anything sexual at all, just a little kid. I'm not talking about a 17 year old Britney Spears, who sold herself as a sexual object, that's bad enough, but a young baby who knows nothing at all about sex and doesn't look in any way "sexy".

Penalties aren't tough enough for this crime that forfeits a child's mental health for a moment of satisfaction, and I understand that's often Life in prison.

At least there won't be a heated debate here.

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Response to JohnnyRingo (Reply #14)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 07:30 AM

21. I think it has something to do with the perp's early experience.

Once I saw a video in which a scientist somehow got a very young bird to see him (the scientist) as a potential mate. Something about the scientist being the first thing the bird saw out of the shell or something like that. My recollection is vague, but I think it was some kind of a very large bird. Later, when the bird was full grown, the scientist was able to get the bird excited by flapping his (the scientist's) arms up and down. Because of its early associations, the bird thought of the man as a potential sex object.

I don't know what the normal way is for people to become sexually attracted to certain other kinds of people -- that is, adults. But whatever that process is, I guess it gets distorted pretty early in life. And I suppose that's how a man or a woman gets sexually excited about a child.

There must be people who have the desire to have sex with children but see the wrongness of it. I suppose it isn't easy for such people to talk about themselves, out of fear that others would jump all over them.

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Response to freedom fighter jh (Reply #21)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 10:02 AM

26. I've often wondered about that, too.

I think I remember reading that many pedophiles were themselves abused as children. Maybe sexual attraction is formed early in life and as a result of abuse these men (it's mostly men) later find themselves attracted to children. I think it's how they convince themselves that they're not really hurting the children, too. The recent Jerry Sandusky case had me thinking about pedophilia and its origins.

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Response to Sheldon Cooper (Reply #26)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 10:18 AM

27. Yes, I think it's often abuse victims that become abusers themselves.

After all that suffering, what a mind game those people must pull on themselves to put someone else through the same thing! Or maybe they forget how they suffered.

I wonder, though, if sometimes the tendency to be attracted to children can come without a history of abuse.

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Response to freedom fighter jh (Reply #27)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 01:43 PM

36. Being one of those children

I can assure you that children who are sexually abused do NOT automatically become pedophiles. As a matter of fact I would say that the vast majority NEVER even think about abusing another child.

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Response to lunatica (Reply #36)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 03:05 PM

43. Oh, I'm sorry you went through that.

And I'm sorry that I wrote that without thinking of it from the child's point of view.

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Response to freedom fighter jh (Reply #27)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 03:27 PM

46. I absolutely agree that it can develop without any history of abuse.

The whole issue confounds me - I don't understand the attraction and I really don't understand carrying it out.

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Response to JohnnyRingo (Reply #14)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 09:36 PM

59. I think it has to do with objectifying people in general, as well as mental disorders.

The pedophile doesn't care about the one they're hurting: they just see kids as an object for their gratification.

I certainly can't claim to be an expert on the subject, but I learned a little from browsing an anti-pedophile group's (the one that worked with Dateline NBC) website and reading these men's chat logs. They're generally the same, give or take - an immediate focus on sex (usually right at the start of the conversation), grooming behavior ("you're so beautiful," "you look so mature!", etc.), and false (or attempted false) charm.

The Dateline NBC videos are certainly interesting (no matter how you feel about the show itself). Almost every single man on there, when caught, calls themselves "stupid," and says they "don't know why they came." Is it another attempt at trickery? No clue... What I found interesting was, the show itself did not show these men in full - the chat logs do. They were probably simply too graphic to air.

What I found very interesting, though, is their other comments - "This is going to destroy me," "I'm going to go to jail," "I can't believe this is happening to me!" There seems to be a total lack of concern or disregard for the kid that they're showing up to meet. It's all "me, me, me."

What I think is, at least for child porn watchers and computer predators, it becomes a compulsion and obsession. I also think a hint of narcissism comes in to play. Even when caught, the computer predators attempted to try to talk their way out of the situation, downplay it, and even try to justify it. I'm not sure how this type of person could be dealt with therapy-wise, if at all.

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Response to proverbialwisdom (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 12:40 AM

15. Guns and ammo KILL children. How about shutting those down with equal zeal?

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Response to Loudly (Reply #15)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 07:35 AM

23. What's your point? That destroying a child's soul and mind aren't as important?

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Response to WinkyDink (Reply #23)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 12:08 PM

30. No, of course not. But literal survival of the living person must be at least equally important.

Guns and ammo are somehow wholesome?

That mindset has got to end.

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Response to proverbialwisdom (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 07:33 AM

22. Too many powerful men are involved, world-wide.

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Response to WinkyDink (Reply #22)


Response to WinkyDink (Reply #22)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 03:48 PM

49. Yep. Probably including a few of our politicians

Notice a rich or powerful person is practically never arrested for this kind of thing.

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Response to proverbialwisdom (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 02:18 PM

40. Thanks to all our LEO's working to make society a better place.

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Response to proverbialwisdom (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 02:22 PM

41. I have a solution to help our undermanned and overwhelmed FBI agents!

How much manpower and assets are devoted to going after weed? I'm pretty sure we don't need 100 decked out agents, 20 armored vans, 5 choppers, and untold numbers of support staff to swoop in every time some random hippy opens up a pot dispensary.

Maybe, just maybe, some of these resources could be re-allocated. Just a thought. It'll never happen though, because it makes too much sense.

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Response to proverbialwisdom (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 02:25 PM

42. 55 fuckin % increase in one year. so damn tired of pro porn arguing there is no problem.

this is what is ignored, and rape fb areas, when we wrap this garbage up in a pretty bow.

and pretend, no one is harmed.

this garbage is CHANGING who we are.

at the least, own it.

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Response to proverbialwisdom (Original post)


Response to proverbialwisdom (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 03:48 PM

50. PITTSBURGH MAG/ JAN 2013/ "TAKEN" provides a glimpse into official opposition to PROTECT bill in PA.

 

Last edited Sun Dec 30, 2012, 09:44 PM - Edit history (2)

http://protect.org/

PROTECT
Thursday at 4:25am


“It’s not easy," Alicia Kozakiewicz tells Pittsburgh Magazine. "There are times when I break down in tears and want to give it all up and think to myself, I can’t do this anymore." But she does, and her work with PROTECT results in the rescue of more and more children every month. Read her story here: http://bit.ly/U9Kyfz

The article also provides a glimpse into official opposition to PROTECT's Alicia's Law bill in Pennsylvania. The legislation would require the Attorney General to refer any child exploitation suspects who are not being investigated by state or federal authorities to local law enforcement. It would also fund the training of those investigators and first responders statewide.

In a circular argument to nowhere, Bruce Beemer, chief of staff for the Pennsylvania Attorney General, calls it "impractical" to refer the unworked cases because so many local officers "aren't trained properly" and could harm "an ongoing investigation."


http://www.pittsburghmagazine.com/Pittsburgh-Magazine/January-2013/Taken/

Taken

Eleven years after her abduction and torture by a child predator, a brave young woman is on a mission to inform youth about the very real dangers of online sexual predators.




by Geoffrey W. Melada

Alicia Kozakiewicz went to hell. If she closes her eyes, she can still picture it, hear it, even smell it. Despite what Dante and the ancient Greeks say, hell isn’t a gloomy, subterranean river. Hell is a townhouse in Northern Virginia overrun with cats, comic books and computers. That’s where, for four days in the winter of 2002, Kozakiewicz, then 13, was held captive by a 38-year-old man who abducted her from outside her parents’ house in Pittsburgh. He met her in a Yahoo chat room. According to U.S. Department of Justice statistics, Kozakiewicz should be dead. But like the hero in every epic story since Homer’s The Odyssey, Kozakiewicz managed to escape from the underworld, returning home with newfound strength, wisdom and purpose.

All of this is obvious when you meet her in person — although her appearance and attitude come as a surprise. It is hard to imagine that the stylish, confident 24-year-old, smiling and posing for a picture with TV star Joe Manganiello (of HBO’s “True Blood”) at a party honoring powerful women in the region, experienced the trauma that she did. But as former U.S. Attorney Mary Beth Buchanan, whose office coordinated Kozakiewicz’s dramatic rescue and convicted her abductor, puts it: “Alicia is not a victim of child abuse; she is a survivor.”

Kozakiewicz says that her kidnapper, Scott Tyree, a divorced computer programmer now serving a 19-year prison sentence, “stole my innocence.” But, she stresses, he could not take away her will to live, not even as he starved, beat and sexually assaulted her for four days in a basement dungeon stocked with knives, whips, chains and a cage.

Like most teens, Kozakiewicz had been awkward and shy. She weighed only 90 pounds. But in the darkness of Tyree’s basement, she found her courage.

“On the fourth day, I remember thinking, Today is the day I have to fight, and it’s probably going to kill me. I’m probably not going to make it out of this alive, but I am not going down without a fight.” Later that day, when Tyree was at work, Kozakiewicz heard crashing on the front door, “and I hear men screaming, ‘We have guns! We have guns!’” As armed men swarmed the house, “I saw the most beautiful letters in the alphabet: F-B-I, in bold yellow on the backs of their jackets, and I knew I was safe.”

How did she get there in the first place? Former prosecutor Buchanan calls it “grooming.” Tyree didn’t break into the Kozakiewicz house in Crafton Heights to nab her; he broke into her mind. During the eight months they corresponded online, he easily manipulated her.

“He behaved as if he were somebody my age,” Kozakiewicz says, “talking to me about my favorite things back then — the Spice Girls, the Backstreet Boys, the movie Titanic. He became my best friend.” Kozakiewicz explains further: “He took my side no matter what. It made me feel like I was doing the right thing, that I was a good person. He made me feel beautiful and special and unique and important — like I meant something.”

<...>

PM contributor Geoffrey W. Melada, a trial lawyer, served as Allegheny County Assistant District Attorney from 2007-2011.

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Response to proverbialwisdom (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 10:25 PM

62. Oak Ridge's Manhattan Project II

 

http://www.protect.org/component/content/article/951

Oak Ridge's Manhattan Project II

"Just imagine the smartest people in the world... put on the worst problem in the world."

--David Keith, PROTECT

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Response to proverbialwisdom (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 10:46 PM

63. Unimaginable.

Soul-killing work.

And yet, the Pope and his cronies acted against the best interests of abused children, boys and girls, for who knows how long.

Sometimes I wish there was a hell, beyond the one Repigs gave the USA, where these bastards actually could get the punishment they deserve.

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Response to proverbialwisdom (Original post)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 11:52 AM

69. I can't even imagine

Those poor babies

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Response to proverbialwisdom (Original post)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 11:56 AM

70. The FBI is also trying to suppress advanced anonomizing technology as part of this

TOR nodes are a real problem for those trying to conduct online surveillance. Same with Mixmaster remailers. They are putting pressure on node operators to shut them down. They cite child porn and national security, but lack any real authority to do anything other than bluster.

Nobody NEEDS anonymous access to the net unless they have something to hide, right?

Some Interesting links about the FBI going after a group using that tech:
http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120504/04184318779/fbi-quietly-returns-anonymizing-server-it-seized-without-telling-anyone.shtml

http://yro.slashdot.org/story/12/05/03/1815230/fbi-caught-on-camera-returning-seized-server?utm_source=slashdot&utm_medium=twitter

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Response to proverbialwisdom (Original post)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 09:36 PM

80. This vile case turns out to involve forum discussion about actual children related to a participant.

 

Last edited Fri Jan 11, 2013, 03:15 PM - Edit history (1)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022134017

Posting photos, name and address of a specific child (or anyone) in the context described is clearly problematic. If not yet illegal, crowd-sourced lethal violence 'fantasy' containing actionable details about specific individuals ought to be.

At the very least, it is repugnant and unacceptable that any participants in this activity have the protection of anonymity, while potential crime victims remain identified and vulnerable.

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