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Sat Dec 29, 2012, 04:11 PM

Arab League Chief Says Palestinians to Petition UN

Source: Associated Press

Arab League chief Nabil Elaraby said Saturday that two decades of talks with Israel have been "a waste of time" and that Palestinians will soon take a new statehood bid to the U.N.

The U.N. General Assembly last month endorsed a de facto Palestinian state in the West Bank, east Jerusalem and Gaza, areas Israel won in a 1967 war. But outright recognition of statehood status for Palestine fell short last year before the more powerful U.N. Security Council.

"We will return to the U.N. Security Council," he said in Ramallah Saturday after meeting Palestinian officials. "Palestine will be cooperating with Arab and EU countries to change the equation (in the peace process) that prevailed over the past 20 years, which was a waste of time."

By mentioning other states and the European Union, some may interpret Elaraby's remarks as implying that the international community should intervene and impose a solution to the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians.

Read more: http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/arab-league-chief-palestinians-petition-18090560#.UN9cXW_Qs2A

33 replies, 4155 views

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Arrow 33 replies Author Time Post
Reply Arab League Chief Says Palestinians to Petition UN (Original post)
Purveyor Dec 2012 OP
R. Daneel Olivaw Dec 2012 #1
Odin2005 Dec 2012 #6
R. Daneel Olivaw Dec 2012 #9
hack89 Dec 2012 #12
cpwm17 Dec 2012 #14
hack89 Dec 2012 #15
Douglas Carpenter Dec 2012 #17
azurnoir Dec 2012 #2
Agnosticsherbet Dec 2012 #3
rdking647 Dec 2012 #4
Agnosticsherbet Dec 2012 #7
hack89 Dec 2012 #13
Agnosticsherbet Dec 2012 #16
former9thward Dec 2012 #5
Agnosticsherbet Dec 2012 #8
Violet_Crumble Dec 2012 #22
former9thward Dec 2012 #23
Violet_Crumble Dec 2012 #25
former9thward Dec 2012 #27
Violet_Crumble Dec 2012 #28
former9thward Jan 2013 #30
Violet_Crumble Jan 2013 #32
Archae Dec 2012 #10
Violet_Crumble Dec 2012 #11
former9thward Dec 2012 #24
Violet_Crumble Dec 2012 #29
former9thward Jan 2013 #31
Violet_Crumble Jan 2013 #33
CrawlingChaos Dec 2012 #18
bunnies Dec 2012 #19
zellie Dec 2012 #20
Douglas Carpenter Dec 2012 #21
Violet_Crumble Dec 2012 #26

Response to Purveyor (Original post)

Sat Dec 29, 2012, 04:26 PM

1. If the Palestinians want their country they will have to cast off their militia

that fires rockets into Israel.

You can't expect something if Hamas wishes to continue a protracted war.

Given that, if the Palestinians accept peace, Israel should be expected to withdraw its settlers from PA land or expect that they will be citizens of a Palestinian state.

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Response to R. Daneel Olivaw (Reply #1)

Sat Dec 29, 2012, 09:35 PM

6. The Pals are defending themselves from Israeli imperialism.

If China conquered the US and started planting Chinese settlements on American soil we would be acting the same way the Palestinians are now.

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Response to Odin2005 (Reply #6)

Sat Dec 29, 2012, 11:12 PM

9. And if they want to be seen as a nation state they will have to put away

their desire to fire rockets. I support the Palestinian cause, but I don't support continued violence if they can be elevated to a nation.

I also believe that Israel has to exit Palestinian territory (all of the West Bank) or its citizens will become Palestinian.

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Response to Odin2005 (Reply #6)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 07:45 AM

12. There are no Israelis in Gaza

Israel gave Gaza back to the Palestinians - the rockets started within hours of their withdrawal.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #12)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 09:54 AM

14. They are imprisoned in Gaza – you know that

and the rockets are usually in response to Israeli aggression against Gaza.

Israel has never given the Palestinians anything.

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Response to cpwm17 (Reply #14)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 10:18 AM

15. The rockets were flying within hours of Israel leaving Gaza.

if a unilateral withdrawal from Gaza constitutes aggression then I could see your point.

The reality is that the blockade against Gaza was not there from the start. It was implemented after Hamas made it clear they were either unwilling or unable to stop militant groups from firing rockets from Gaza.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #15)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 03:54 PM

17. Mr. Sharon openly stated that the purpose of the Gaza withdrawal was to consolidate Israeli

control over the West Bank. Those are not my words. They are Mr. Sharon's own words. And it is an undeniable fact that Israeli settlement expansion continued unabated in the West Bank and East Jerusalem. Mr. Netanyahu has now publicly promised the settler movement that there will never, ever be any slow down on settlement expansion in the West Bank and East Jerusalem and never again be any withdrawal of any settlers - ever.


------------------------

Officials: Robust Growth in W. Bank Settlements

Friday, August 26, 2005

JERUSALEM — An Israeli government official said Friday the population in its West Bank (search) settlements has grown by more than 12,000 in the past year, reinforcing Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's goal of strengthening large settlement blocs while withdrawing from the Gaza Strip.

snip:

Sharon has repeatedly said the withdrawal would help consolidate Israel's control over large settlement blocs in the West Bank, where the vast majority of Jewish settlers live. New figures from the Interior Ministry show robust growth in these blocs.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,167143,00.html




-------------------------------------------------------------------



-----------------------------------

Enjoying a moment of international sympathy, Sharon's government is moving swiftly to capitalize on its unilateral withdrawal and ongoing demolition of 25 Jewish settlements. The government's efforts are focused largely in the West Bank, land of far more religious and strategic importance to Israel than the remote slice of coastline it has left behind.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/27/AR2005082701113_pf.html



-------------------------------




West Bank settlement population has indeed increased every single year. But what's really surprising is that the general trend has not changed significantly even when Israel was intensely negotiating a two-state agreement with the Palestinians. This implies that Israel has never actually been serious about a two-state solution.

http://reform-dem.blogspot.com/2009/04/israeli-west-bank-settlement-growth.html

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Response to Purveyor (Original post)

Sat Dec 29, 2012, 04:43 PM

2. it will be as usual fruitless

as the US will invariably veto any actions or even statements the UNSC makes concerning the I/P situation something it did just 10 days ago


The US prevented a UN Security Council condemnation of Israel on Wednesday over a spate of settlement construction decisions, leading the other 14 countries on the 15-member council to issue separate condemnations of their own instead.

http://www.jpost.com/DiplomacyAndPolitics/Article.aspx?id=296634

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Response to Purveyor (Original post)

Sat Dec 29, 2012, 05:32 PM

3. The UN should create a Palastinian state in the West Bank and Gaza Strip...

If Israel refuses to set up a time frame to end their occupation very quickly, the world shoud step in and finish the work they started in 1948. The Plastinians deserve a state.

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Response to Agnosticsherbet (Reply #3)

Sat Dec 29, 2012, 06:44 PM

4. lets say they did

if hamas then fired even 1 rocket into israel than israel could invade and toss hamas out since hamas would have committed an act of war

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Response to rdking647 (Reply #4)

Sat Dec 29, 2012, 09:43 PM

7. Yes, that is correct...

Israel has already invaded the Gaza several times, and killed more of their leaders with rocket attacks. What would be the difference.

The Palestinian people deserve a state. It is up to them to decide whether they want war peace.

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Response to Agnosticsherbet (Reply #7)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 07:46 AM

13. This time they could do it legally

and they could legally reoccupy it.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #13)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 03:21 PM

16. But doesn't solve the problem.

It puts them in an expensive and long term occupation and ramps up the violence. Occupation doesn't solve any of the problems. The solution is to give them their own state an bring them into the world economy.

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Response to Agnosticsherbet (Reply #3)

Sat Dec 29, 2012, 07:32 PM

5. The UN did this in 1948.

The Palestinians rejected it. They do not recognize the right of Israel to exist. That position has not changed since 1948.

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Response to former9thward (Reply #5)

Sat Dec 29, 2012, 09:54 PM

8. Your histoy is not entirely correct.

The Palastinians in Israel were granted citizenshp, but those in the Arab states were denied ciiznship and forced to live in refugee camps. Jordan eventually graned them citizenship, but Palastinians elsewhere are still onsidered statless individuals. It wasn't the Palastinians who refused a state, but Jordan, Syria, Egypt, and Lebanon that refused to let it happen.

After more than 64 years it is time to do something different.

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Response to former9thward (Reply #5)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 08:15 PM

22. Wrong. The Palestinians have recognised the right of Israel to exist...

September 9, 1993

Yitzhak Rabin
Prime Minister of Israel

Mr. Prime Minister,

The signing of the Declaration of Principles marks a new era in the history of the Middle East. In firm conviction thereof, I would like to confirm the following PLO commitments:

The PLO recognizes the right of the State of Israel to exist in peace and security.

The PLO accepts United Nations Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338.

The PLO commits itself to the Middle East peace process, and to a peaceful resolution of the conflict between the two sides and declares that all outstanding issues relating to permanent status will be resolved through negotiations.

The PLO considers that the signing of the Declaration of Principles constitutes a historic event, inaugurating a new epoch of peaceful coexistence, free from violence and all other acts which endanger peace and stability. Accordingly, the PLO renounces the use of terrorism and other acts of violence and will assume responsibility over all PLO elements and personnel in order to assure their compliance, prevent violations and discipline violators.

In view of the promise of a new era and the signing of the Declaration of Principles and based on Palestinian acceptance of Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338, the PLO affirms that those articles of the Palestinian Covenant which deny Israel's right to exist, and the provisions of the Covenant which are inconsistent with the commitments of this letter are now inoperative and no longer valid. Consequently, the PLO undertakes to submit to the Palestinian National Council for formal approval the necessary changes in regard to the Palestinian Covenant.

Sincerely,

Yasser Arafat Chairman
The Palestine Liberation Organization

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Foreign%20Relations/Israels%20Foreign%20Relations%20since%201947/1992-1994/107%20Israel-PLO%20Mutual%20Recognition-%20Letters%20and%20Spe

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #22)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 09:34 PM

23. Past drama.

I live in the present. The Palestinians in Gaza voted in Hamas as their governing body. Hamas does not recognize Israel and wants to push the Jews into the Sea. IN the West Bank Abbas and the PLO refuses to recognize Israel : The chairman of the Palestinian Liberation Organization (PLO) and president of the Palestinian Authority told a Jordanian newspaper: "Don't order us to recognize a Jewish state. We won't accept it."

http://www.worldjewishcongress.org/en/news/10609/abbas_palestinians_will_not_recognize_israel_as_jewish_state

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Response to former9thward (Reply #23)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 09:48 PM

25. You don't just get to write off official documents as 'past drama' when it suits you...

Or shall we do that with every historical document? My guess is you'll want to confine it to just the Palestinians, cause it could get messy if you start trotting out that stuff when it comes to things like the Israeli declaration of statehood for example...

This may come as a massive shock to you, but the West Bank is governed by the PA, who do recognise Israel. Why ignore the reality and focus on Hamas, who are really not that far different than the extremists of Likud in their hate and desire for all the land between the Jordan and the Mediterranean...

btw, yr trying to change the goalposts now. After incorrectly claiming that the Palestinians have never recognised Israel as a state, yr now turning it into 'as a Jewish state'. Of course they haven't, nor should they. There's no requirement for them to, any more than there would be for Israel to define for them what sort of state theirs will be. To recognise Israel as a 'Jewish state' after officially recognising Israel as a state is a ploy by the Israeli govt to turn around and claim that the Palestinians themselves gave up the Right of Return when they recognised Israel as a Jewish state...

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #25)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 10:13 PM

27. You don't get to rely on "official documents" when people in the present reject them.

I look at what people do not what they what say as good PR. The people of Gaza do not recognize Israel. The PA specifically violated the Oslo accords when it petitioned the UN for statehood. Arafat is dead and their is no evidence any of his successors recognize Israel in any meaningful way.

The Jewish right to statehood is a tenet of international law. The Balfour Declaration of 1917 called for the creation of “a national home for the Jewish people” in the land then known as Palestine and, in 1922, the League of Nations cited the “historical connection of the Jewish people” to that country as “the grounds for reconstituting their national home.” In 1947, the United Nations authorized the establishment of “an independent Jewish state,” and recently, while addressing the General Assembly, President Obama proclaimed Israel as “the historic homeland of the Jewish people.” Why, then, can’t the Palestinians simply say “Israel is the Jewish state”?

The reason, perhaps, is that so much of Palestinian identity as a people has coalesced around denying that same status to Jews. “I will not allow it to be written of me that I have ... confirmed the existence of the so-called Temple beneath the Mount,” Yassar Arafat told President Bill Clinton in 2000.

For Palestinians, recognizing Israel as a Jewish state also means accepting that the millions of them residing in Arab countries would be resettled within a future Palestinian state and not within Israel, which their numbers would transform into a Palestinian state in all but name. Reconciling with the Jewish state means that the two-state solution is not a two-stage solution leading, as many Palestinians hope, to Israel’s dissolution.

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Response to former9thward (Reply #27)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 10:40 PM

28. It doesn't matter who rejects them. They still official documents and they exist, despite yr claim..

I'll refresh yr memory with the incorrect statement you made: 'They do not recognize the right of Israel to exist. That position has not changed since 1948. '

They do, that position did change in the 90's, and I posted a link to the document sitting on the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs site. You can't just go discarding it because it doesn't suit the view of the world you have...

I'm not sure where you get the idea that 'the people' of Gaza don't recognise Israel, nor why you keep on steadfastly ignoring the much larger part of the Occupied Territories, the West Bank.

I'm pretty sure both Israelis and Palestinians violated the Oslo Accords whenever it suited them and that went on for years. Why is it suddenly an issue for you now the Palestinians approached the UN with a request for statehood (something it's clear Israel and the US oppose, despite their lies to the contrary over the years)? And what has that got to do with the incorrect claim that the Palestinians have never recognised Israel's right to exist...

No state has a right to exist as a matter of international law.The Balfour Declaration is one of those 'past dramas' and did not assign any territory, and it also included an important bit about the non-Jewish residents of the region. It was also an imperialistic thing where the British promised something that didn't belong to them to someone else. It's not part of international law, nor is anything that came out of the League Of Nations.

The Palestinians, despite yr claims to the contrary, did recognise Israel's right to exist'. Yr still trying to change the goalposts. We can talk about where you've shifted them to as soon as you acknowledge that you were incorrect and the Palestinians did indeed recognise Israel's right to exist. We can also then discuss the rather ignorant and ugly view you have of Palestinian identity. I'm very aware that you want to portray Palestinians has Jew-hating bigots, but I hate that sort of broadbrushing...

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #28)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 12:03 AM

30. The people of Gaza are represented by Hamas not the PA.

Hamas does not recognize Israel. Surely you know that? I didn't ignore the West Bank. That is why I quoted Abbas. I am aware that Arafat signed a piece of paper "in the 90s" but that position has been rejected by his successors as I have shown. Israel and the U.S. have not opposed statehood "over the years". As recently as 2000 Clinton and Israel tried to get Arafat to accept a Palestinian state. Arafat refused. He could not take 'Yes" for an answer.

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Response to former9thward (Reply #30)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 12:25 AM

32. And how does that override the mutual letters of recognition? It doesn't

You incorrectly claimed that the Palestinians don't and never have recognised Israel. They have. And you are ignoring the West Bank when you pretend that 'the Palestinians' are Hamas. And Abbas has NOT rejected the recognition of Israel. He did it again very clearly in his address to the UN last year, though apparently some anti-Palestinian types are selectively blind and ignore that.

Where did I say that Israel and the US have opposed statehood over the years? What I said was that Israel and the US do oppose statehood despite all they've said over the years (mind you, until Israel was forced to in the early 90's it steadfastly opposed any Palestinian state) to the contrary.

Oh, and what sort of Palestinian state was it that the great partnership of Israel and the US (I thought the US had portrayed itself as not taking sides) so generously offered? Where are the maps? Or do you think that the Palestinians just have to offer anything at all, even if it's postage stamp size, which btw, is what Arafat had said yes to if anyone were to offer it to him.



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Response to Purveyor (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 02:07 AM

10. Why should the Palestinians be given statehood? And where?

Notice how none of the Arab countries will let them in?

Also they just had a chance to show they could cast off one barbaric remnant, the so-called "honor killings," a license to murder anyone they want to.

Nope.

http://maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=550792

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Response to Archae (Reply #10)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 07:22 AM

11. Because they're every bit as deserving of having their own state as Israelis were...

And where? Anyone who's not a RW extremist knows it will be in the West Bank and Gaza. Given yr past posts I've seen on the I/P conflict, I'm guessing you think the West Bank and Gaza are part of Israel?

Thankfully people like you aren't the ones who'll decide if the Palestinians have their own state or not. The international community as a whole has decided they should have one...

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #11)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 09:44 PM

24. Yes, the international community decided that in 1947.

Unfortunately the Palestinians said NO and joined the Arab state's war to drive the Jews into the Sea. Now we have had 65 years of history pass which makes the process extremely difficult. Too bad they couldn't just say Yes to their own state in 1947.

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Response to former9thward (Reply #24)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 10:45 PM

29. They've still got just as much right to a state as Israelis do.

Sorry, but again yr totally incorrect when it comes to the war of 47. I don't know what ugly crap you've been reading on the net to come up with yet another *the Arabs hate Jews and that's what it was all about* narrative, but the Arab states that were active (two of them at least were just along for the ride and contributed little) were there to fight over the pickings of the proposed Arab state. They didn't want Israel or each other to get it. That's why the only area of the assigned Jewish state that was attacked was Jerusalem.

I'm curious. Yr attitude towards the Palestinians does come across as extreme and hardline. Do you support a two-state solution along the 1967 borders? If not, what is yr solution to the conflict?

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #29)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 12:17 AM

31. I support a two state solution.

I don't read things "on the net" about the I/P issue to get my views. I have been to the Mid East many times including Israel, all the countries that surround Israel and to the West Bank. In fact once coming back from Ramallah I was detained by IDF forces who were upset that I had Palestinian documents on me relating to the Wall that Israel was building. (I had interviewed PA authorities for a book that was subsequently published). As far as the border there has been a lot of water under the bridge since 1967. I doubt it will come down to exactly those borders. It is up to Israel and whoever represents the Palestinians to negotiate. But until they realistically recognize Israel nothing can be done.

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Response to former9thward (Reply #31)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 12:42 AM

33. I'm glad to hear that...

A two-state solution is the only solution that would be fair for both Israelis and Palestinians. As idealistic as the one binational democratic state idea is, neither Palestinians nor Israelis would want it and understandably so.

The reason I said about reading things on the net is that quote you produced is the same one I've seen from partisan pro-Israel types and is available on those sites they rely on to give them their info.

I understand frustration at Hamas, because until Hamas is gone, there's little chance of change. The same goes for Netanyahu and his enterage of RW extremists. Back when I studied the Middle East at uni, my lecturer used to say there was no moving forward until Sharafat was gone (that's Sharon and Arafat for anyone who's not familiar with the name) because peace wouldn't happen with either because of their leadership styles, history and personal animosity towards each other. He didn't know worse was still to come, because with Hamas and Netanyahu in control, they make the old bunch look like treehugging hippies. Much as Abbas and the PA have irritated me at times, I feel sorry for them being virtually the only sane ones in the picture at the moment.

So, people need to wait and hope things change. But what they shouldn't do is sit around playing the blame game where only one side is to blame and the other is squeaky clean. I've always though both Israelis and Palestinians have very real grievances and fears that shouldn't be ignored, just very different ones...

Oh, and the PA (which is the internationally recognised body that speaks on behalf of the Palestinian people) has recognised Israel. Back in the 90's. And to be honest, for something to change all that needs to happen is for Israel to remove its troops and its settlers from the West Bank and end the occupation. Insisting it's not enough to be recognised by the people its occupying as a state, but to be recognised as this or that sort of state isn't something that has to happen before that. It's immaturity as a state that causes Israel not to see that just like every other state, only Israel gets to define what sort of state Israel is. If they asked me, I'd tell them they're a militaristic state overflowing with existential fears, and that would probably teach them quickly that they shouldn't demand others define what sort of state they are...

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Response to Archae (Reply #10)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 07:01 PM

18. What an ugly, hateful comment (n/t)

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Response to Archae (Reply #10)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 08:43 AM

19. They shouldnt need to be "let in" anywhere.

They deserve their own state. Do you also hold such opposition to the existence of Israel?! They were "given" a state after all.

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Response to Purveyor (Original post)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 09:29 AM

20. Some country...

 

Women are murdered with impunity under so called honor killing.

Gay Palestinians live in fear of their lives.

Any dissent is labeled a "collaborator" and dragged to death by a motorcycle ... If they are lucky.

They totally reject the existence of Israel.

They have engaged in state sponsored outright anti-semitism continuously .

They continue to use missiles at non-combatants spec. against all moral and ethical norms.

Yes , I can see how some people can see a normal democratic state there.

But then again the rest if the world doesn't have to deal with that.

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Response to zellie (Reply #20)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 07:45 PM

21. by supporting the single-state solution -do you not realized that Israel will not be able to remain

both a Jewish and Democratic state? You are making the same exact argument as made to defend apartheid South Africa. In fact change only a couple of the words and it's the same exact points with, might I add the same degree of hateful and bigoted rhetoric rooted in outrageous misrepresentations of reality. But all of that aside. Your support for the single state solution essentially means either an permanent state of conflict under a permanent apartheid state based on the same philosophy that dominated South Africa except in this case instead of whites being a superior race a blacks being an inferior race - Jews are the superior race and Palestinian-Arabs must accept a permanent status as an inferior race in their own homeland - or it could mean that the native-indigenous people of Palestine are forced to leave their country and they will be killed if they don't comply - or it could mean a single - bi-national or multi-national future for all the peoples' between the Jordan and the sea. Of course those three choices all presume that you and the philosophy of the current dominant factions in Israel succeed in blocking a viable two-state solution. You might consider the possibility that rather than the three choices you are expo facto proposing - under your support for a single state - maybe the two-solution would be more to your liking after all.

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Response to zellie (Reply #20)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 09:53 PM

26. What a nasty and ugly post of stereotypes....

The problem with the ugliness you just peddled, where you condemn an entire people for the behaviour of a few, or pull out something that's an issue in other countries, yet NEVER condemn it if it happens in them, is that the exact same thing can be done by bigots to Israel and Israelis. They could take the actions of the settlers (I take it from yr posts at DU that yr not only opposed to a two-state solution, but are a supporter of the extremist settlers) and paint Israelis as a whole by their actions. They could take the times when members of the IDF have murdered Palestinians and internationals like Tom Hurndell and paint all Israelis like that. They could take the racist and anti-Arab laws introduced in the Knesset and paint all Israelis based on them.

Anyone who'd do that would be engaging in bigotry, and the same goes for when it's done to Palestinians...

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