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Wed Dec 12, 2012, 06:32 PM

Michigan: Bill Allowing Concealed Weapons In Schools Approved By House Committee

Source: MICHIGAN RADIO NEWSROOM

A bill approved by a House committee Wednesday would allow gun owners with concealed weapons to carry those weapons in schools and other formerly “gun-free” zones.

David Eggert from MLive has more:

Michigan now prohibits people licensed for concealed weapons from carrying them in schools, day care centers, sports arenas, bars, places of worship, hospitals, dorms and casinos. They can, however, openly carry their guns in schools and all other places except federal buildings, courthouses and casinos.

The bill would let CPL holders apply for an exemption so they could carry concealed guns in those gun-free zones, though they no longer could openly carry there under the legislation. They would have to get at least eight more hours of training and fire 94 additional rounds at a firing range.

However, private property owners—churches, bars, hospitals and others—would be allowed to prohibit guns from being carried on their premises. Because of their autonomy under the state constitution, public universities also could ban guns.

Read more: http://www.michiganradio.org/post/bill-allowing-concealed-weapons-schools-approved-house-committee



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Reply Michigan: Bill Allowing Concealed Weapons In Schools Approved By House Committee (Original post)
Purveyor Dec 2012 OP
Demeter Dec 2012 #1
thatgemguy Dec 2012 #31
Roland99 Dec 2012 #2
AtheistCrusader Dec 2012 #4
cstanleytech Dec 2012 #26
Roland99 Dec 2012 #56
PavePusher Dec 2012 #76
Roland99 Dec 2012 #107
onehandle Dec 2012 #3
MichiganVote Dec 2012 #5
TPaine7 Dec 2012 #6
Politicub Dec 2012 #18
TPaine7 Dec 2012 #19
Politicub Dec 2012 #21
TPaine7 Dec 2012 #23
Politicub Dec 2012 #24
TPaine7 Dec 2012 #27
Politicub Dec 2012 #30
TPaine7 Dec 2012 #32
Shadowflash Dec 2012 #54
Politicub Dec 2012 #59
PavePusher Dec 2012 #77
Eleanors38 Dec 2012 #110
Politicub Dec 2012 #111
Eleanors38 Dec 2012 #113
Bucky Dec 2012 #121
AlexSatan Dec 2012 #49
Politicub Dec 2012 #58
AlexSatan Dec 2012 #65
Politicub Dec 2012 #71
AlexSatan Dec 2012 #75
Politicub Dec 2012 #85
AlexSatan Dec 2012 #89
Politicub Dec 2012 #90
AlexSatan Dec 2012 #92
Politicub Dec 2012 #93
AlexSatan Dec 2012 #94
ManiacJoe Dec 2012 #7
TahitiNut Dec 2012 #63
pizzadave Dec 2012 #8
heaven05 Dec 2012 #9
Bozita Dec 2012 #12
JustABozoOnThisBus Dec 2012 #20
trusty elf Dec 2012 #10
AAO Dec 2012 #11
msongs Dec 2012 #13
Phillip McCleod Dec 2012 #14
davidthegnome Dec 2012 #38
PavePusher Dec 2012 #78
Brigid Dec 2012 #15
Politicub Dec 2012 #17
TwilightGardener Dec 2012 #28
rightsideout Dec 2012 #40
AlexSatan Dec 2012 #51
Comrade Grumpy Dec 2012 #70
AlexSatan Dec 2012 #74
Politicub Dec 2012 #16
Odin2005 Dec 2012 #22
OldRedneck Dec 2012 #25
Fire Walk With Me Dec 2012 #29
okaawhatever Dec 2012 #33
Purveyor Dec 2012 #35
historylovr Dec 2012 #66
Purveyor Dec 2012 #67
Dont_Bogart_the_Pretzel Dec 2012 #34
DJ13 Dec 2012 #36
underoath Dec 2012 #37
triplepoint Dec 2012 #39
davidthegnome Dec 2012 #41
PavePusher Dec 2012 #80
davidthegnome Dec 2012 #101
PavePusher Dec 2012 #105
rightsideout Dec 2012 #42
nickinSTL Dec 2012 #118
OldDem2012 Dec 2012 #43
ManiacJoe Dec 2012 #46
OldDem2012 Dec 2012 #47
ManiacJoe Dec 2012 #53
OldDem2012 Dec 2012 #60
slackmaster Dec 2012 #61
PavePusher Dec 2012 #82
OldDem2012 Dec 2012 #87
PavePusher Dec 2012 #91
gejohnston Dec 2012 #96
L0oniX Dec 2012 #44
bongbong Dec 2012 #102
L0oniX Dec 2012 #103
bongbong Dec 2012 #120
erinlough Dec 2012 #45
muriel_volestrangler Dec 2012 #48
primavera Dec 2012 #50
ManiacJoe Dec 2012 #55
primavera Dec 2012 #64
TimKeller Dec 2012 #52
ManiacJoe Dec 2012 #57
PavePusher Dec 2012 #81
toby jo Dec 2012 #62
Myrina Dec 2012 #68
erinlough Dec 2012 #114
proud2BlibKansan Dec 2012 #69
glinda Dec 2012 #72
ManiacJoe Dec 2012 #84
moondust Dec 2012 #73
madrchsod Dec 2012 #79
olddad56 Dec 2012 #83
ManiacJoe Dec 2012 #86
kiranon Dec 2012 #88
ManiacJoe Dec 2012 #98
and-justice-for-all Dec 2012 #95
ManiacJoe Dec 2012 #99
NickP Dec 2012 #97
ManiacJoe Dec 2012 #100
trouble.smith Dec 2012 #104
Eleanors38 Dec 2012 #112
trouble.smith Dec 2012 #115
Eleanors38 Dec 2012 #116
catbyte Dec 2012 #106
Purveyor Dec 2012 #109
primavera Dec 2012 #108
KamaAina Dec 2012 #117
Kablooie Dec 2012 #119

Response to Purveyor (Original post)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 06:34 PM

1. Are they out of their minds?

Don't answer that....I already know the answer.

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Response to Demeter (Reply #1)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 09:33 PM

31. Pretty much proved that yesterday...

Don't Ya Think?

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Response to Purveyor (Original post)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 06:36 PM

2. What could possibly go wrong???

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Response to Roland99 (Reply #2)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 06:44 PM

4. The resolution to the Appalachain Law School shooting?

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Response to Roland99 (Reply #2)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 09:22 PM

26. Are you implying it will lead to more gun violence? If so I dont buy that line of argument.

And no I dont own a gun nor do I believe semi autos should or even would be legal to own if the founding fathers could have foreseen them but the fact is even without the permit there is already gun violence in this country so its silly to argue (if thats what you were doing) that this change will cause more to happen because they can already carry the weapons they just have to keep them out in the open.

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Response to cstanleytech (Reply #26)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 10:53 AM

56. At least if they are in the open now, it's easier to see who's packing.

now, no one will know.

and, imho, it's only a matter of time until people are killed/injured in a crossfire from would-be vigilantes opening up with their personal weapons and shooting each other or being shot by police when an unknown assailant is on the loose

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Response to Roland99 (Reply #56)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 02:59 PM

76. Concealed and open carry has been legal in many states for quite a long time....

 

even in schools in some states. Surely your hypothetical situation would have occured by now?

I'll note that part of every carry class I've been to was how to deal with the arrival of police, and police in carry states also train in how to deal with lawfully armed Citizens.

Do you really want to carry on with your "any day now, the sky will fall" mentality? How long do you think it will take to come true?

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Response to PavePusher (Reply #76)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 09:30 AM

107. I'm quite sure it will happen one day

not holding my breath for it but I will be Jack's complete lack of surprise when it does.

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Response to Purveyor (Original post)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 06:38 PM

3. Lunatics. nt

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Response to onehandle (Reply #3)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 06:50 PM

5. I call them the Lansing Loonies.

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Response to Purveyor (Original post)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 06:51 PM

6. I know that if I or a child I loved were huddled behind a desk hoping a school shooter woud pass me

 

by, the last thing I would want would be for myself or the teacher to have the means to fight back.

The idea that a teacher or licensed and trained adult could fight back against a school shooter is ludicrous. Besides sullying the purity of anti-gun righteousness that all schools should have, the teacher or other trained adult would probably kill every single innocent person in the school, including herself, while leaving the shooter unharmed.

Better, far better, to trust a school shooter than to trust a teacher or trained adult with a clean criminal record!

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Response to TPaine7 (Reply #6)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 08:32 PM

18. All gun nuts fancy themselves as Bruce Willis

Shooting the bad guys, rappelling down the side of of a building and getting away in the bat mobile.

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Response to Politicub (Reply #18)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 08:39 PM

19. You mean like this?

 

TPaine7 Donating Member (1000+ posts)

17. I absolutely agree that as a general rule, we want less bullets flying.

Personally, I still want bullets to fly in specific situations. I'll give you a few examples:

1) I'm on a bus and a gangbanger gets on and starts terrorizing folks with his knife. I try to protect a little old lady and wind up against the bus wall with his knife to my throat and his bad breath in my nose. I would be very grateful if the genteel lady sitting opposite me let a carefully aimed bullet fly.

2) I am on the ground getting stomped by a group of thugs because I was wearing the wrong color when my car broke down in the wrong part of town. I would be very glad if a kind stranger whose car didn't break down at least threatened to let bullets fly (with the will to back it up if necessary), then got me to a hospital when the thugs dispersed.

3) I am lined up against the wall in a bank and the robber has just shot the two hostages next to me. He's smirking as he points his gun at my head. I would very much appreciate a police sniper rendering his brain non-functional before he can pull the trigger.

4) A female friend or relative is accosted by a knife wielding assailant who wants to use her for entertainment. I very much want her to have the ability to meet force with force and shoot to stop him in his tracks if necessary.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=283817&mesg_id=284094


Does that fit neatly into your little stereotype?

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Response to TPaine7 (Reply #19)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 08:46 PM

21. You made my point. These are all vigilante pew pew fantasies.

Like a modern day John Wayne movie.

There are gun nuts and responsible gun owners. Absolutists tend to be on the nut side of things.

People who don't support sensible gun control measures are absolutist in their thinking.

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Response to Politicub (Reply #21)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 09:00 PM

23. Sigh... No i didn't. That you think I did is sad, a poor reflection on our educational system.

 

Here is your "point":

All gun nuts fancy themselves as Bruce Willis


In the examples that supposedly made your point, I NEVER was "Bruce Willis." I was the victim, the person "Bruce Willis" was saving. Therefore, per your own statement, the examples do NOT show me in the correct role.

It's always so sad when people don't understand their own points.

Oh, and look up "vigilante" and learn what that word actually means.

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Response to TPaine7 (Reply #23)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 09:07 PM

24. Huh? Are you honestly saying you went through all of this?

Seriously?

Okay......

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Response to Politicub (Reply #24)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 09:22 PM

27. No, simply that my "fantasy" is a world in which decent, law-abiding people are equipped to save

 

me when I am getting my butt kicked or about to get killed.

I trust CCW permittees; the data shows that they are trustworthy.

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Response to TPaine7 (Reply #27)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 09:30 PM

30. The world sounds like it's a scary place for you.

Good luck with finding your gun slinger utopia.

Until then, I think you need to stay in your house lest you have gang bangers stomp your head and get thrown up against the wall of a bus.

On edit: I'm not against heavily regulated concealed carry. I am for levying heavy taxes on ammo, though.

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Response to Politicub (Reply #30)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 09:38 PM

32. I appreciate your concern, but I don't think the odds of that are very large. You may consider

 

me a lunatic, but I actually have two--two!!--fire extinguishers in my house, and I've never used one anyplace I've lived. I guess I live in terror of housefires as far as you're concerned.

Oh well. At least you care for my health and welfare.

*tremblingly glances around to see if a fire has started and I get to play firefighting hero*

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Response to TPaine7 (Reply #32)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 10:47 AM

54. The odds of a fire extinguisher killing or injuring

A family member (or someone else!) instead of putting out a fire is very low.

The odds of a gun, brought into the home, killing or injuring a family member instead of an intruder are dramatically high. High enough, that the risk isn't even worth the threat to my family or my 9 year old.

But, hey, if you are willing to risk your family's well being and lives in the one in bazillion chance you get to use your gun to defend them, then, by all means, knock yourself out. Just keep it out of the schools where it's not only YOUR family's well being you are risking.

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Response to Shadowflash (Reply #54)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 11:03 AM

59. +1. All great points.

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Response to Politicub (Reply #30)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 03:07 PM

77. I'm in favor of levying heavy taxes on ink and electrons...

 

so that it will be more difficult for people to broadcast ignorant and illogical opinions. There's no Constitutional protection to display ignorance in public, after all.....

Good luck with your casting of aspertions and slurs. Have a nice day.

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Response to Politicub (Reply #21)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 11:50 AM

110. So an experienced unarmed teacher who trains & arms herself to defend...

her child/students suddenly becomes Bruce Willis?

No wonder teachers are under attack; who needs the GOP when we have your outlook?

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Response to Eleanors38 (Reply #110)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 12:08 PM

111. People are being blown to bits and all you do is roll out the same tired crap

Blah blah blah arm everyone. Guns everywhere.

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Response to Politicub (Reply #111)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 12:10 PM

113. You are in a paranoid panic. Get control of yourself.

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Response to TPaine7 (Reply #19)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 04:50 PM

121. I love it when KNIFE weilding assailants pause and hold their poses, waiting for 2nd Amdmnt Justice.

It's just like in the movies.

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Response to Politicub (Reply #18)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 10:24 AM

49. You mean like this

 

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Response to AlexSatan (Reply #49)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 10:59 AM

58. Yes. Just like that.

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Response to Politicub (Reply #58)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 11:24 AM

65. The non-dead people

 

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Response to AlexSatan (Reply #65)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 12:51 PM

71. The evidence: Thousands of families and their children have paid the ultimate price

for having guns in the home. The odds are also increased for dying from a homicide in the home, not reduced, among those with firearms in the home. This isn't my opinion; it's what multiple studies have shown:

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention estimates nearly two million children live in homes with loaded, unlocked guns.4 The presence of guns increases the risk of death. Most adolescent suicides involve a gun owned by a parent.5 Parents may think they have adequately protected their children by safely storing their guns, but this sense of security is often misplaced. A study by the Harvard Injury Control Research Center found that 39 percent of children interviewed knew the location of their parents’ guns and 22 percent said they had handled the guns despite their parents’ reporting otherwise.6 Children under 10 were just as likely to have reported knowing where the guns were kept and having handled them as older children. Research shows that it is not enough to talk to children about the dangers of guns. Children exposed to gun safety programs are no less likely to play with guns than those who are not exposed to such classes. Simply removing guns from the home is one of the best ways to protect children and teens from gun deaths.

Source: Children's Defense Fund 2012 Report about Children and Guns

And according to the peer-reviewed Journal of Epidemiology:

Those persons with guns in the home were at greater risk than those without guns in the home of dying from a homicide in the home (adjusted odds ratio = 1.9, 95% confidence interval: 1.1, 3.4).

Source: Guns in the Home and Risk of a Violent Death in the Home: Findings from a National Study

The Epidemiology Journal article has a lot of good, scientifically grounded information. It's worth reading the abstract.

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Response to Politicub (Reply #71)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 02:15 PM

75. False conclusion - Not causal

 

"Those persons with guns in the home were at greater risk than those without guns in the home of dying from a homicide in the home (adjusted odds ratio = 1.9, 95% confidence interval: 1.1, 3.4)."

Did you ever consider that people who have guns in the home have them because they realize they are more likely to be a victim of homicide? For example: the woman with an abusive ex-husband stalking her is more likely to get a gun than one who is happily married. And also more likely to be a victim of homicide.

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Response to AlexSatan (Reply #75)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 03:47 PM

85. Where's your research? All you have is opinion.

And an uninformed one at that.

Plus I don't think what you said makes any sense, which is my opinion.

Unless we can have a reasoned debate, there's no need to continue this discussion.

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Response to Politicub (Reply #85)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 03:51 PM

89. OK, let's try again and I'll type slower

 

Do you think people who fear for their lives (or at least feel they are in danger) are

A) more likely
B) less likely

to get a gun?

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Response to AlexSatan (Reply #89)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 03:56 PM

90. c) Not sure. Some people get restraining orders.

Who knows. Why don't you do some research and tell us instead of posting silly questions.

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Response to Politicub (Reply #90)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 04:23 PM

92. Because research will not tell what you think

 

I said "Do you think"

Obviously there is not going to be data out there answering the question.

Yes, some do get restraining order. But not many: ""Of women who have been killed by their intimate partners, only 4 percent ever had contact with a domestic violence program," she says."
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18563_162-57537721/court-order-not-always-enough-to-protect-against-domestic-violence/


And some recognize that if someone is going to harm them, the person will do it regardless of there being a restraining order.

And "No one, however, keeps track of how many domestic-abuse homicide victims had restraining orders against their killers."http://extras.denverpost.com/news/violence/viol0912.htm


Additionally: "A sampling of court hearings in Nevada found that only 40 percent of TPOs that are granted in the state actually get served because deputies can't find accused batterers. If the orders aren't served, they can't be violated."
http://www.8newsnow.com/story/648610/do-restraining-orders-stop-domestic-violence

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Response to AlexSatan (Reply #92)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 04:40 PM

93. I don't understand your premise or your question

So you're saying that more homicides occur in households with guns because those guns were brought into the house because the occupant felt like he or she was in danger?

Is that right? Just making sure we're on the same page.

I read the content at the links you provided. Abuse that escalates to homicide is indeed a problem in this country. Maybe if guns and ammo were heavily regulated and highly taxed the Wisc. shooter profiled in the first link wouldn't have had as easy of a time accessing them. I don't think that means we need to throw the baby out with the bathwater because some restraining orders are broken or ignored.

There is no perfect solution to society's problems, but I believe strong and sensible gun control measures make society better - not worse. It's an agree to disagree situation, I guess.

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Response to Politicub (Reply #93)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 05:03 PM

94. Yes

 

Those who are in danger are more likely to get things to protect themselves with.

Those who are in danger are also more likely to be hurt or be killed.

Drugs are heavily regulated. Yet they are all over the place in the hands of criminals. The same would be true of guns.

And lack of a gun is not going to stop, and may not minimize homicides. Many domestic murders are via knife or strangulation.

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Response to Purveyor (Original post)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 06:57 PM

7. Michigan allows open carry in the schools now.

Since that is currently not a problem, why would concealed carry be a problem?

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Response to ManiacJoe (Reply #7)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 11:19 AM

63. But God forbid if you light up a cigarette in the school parking lot!

Fascinating "priorities."

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Response to Purveyor (Original post)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 06:59 PM

8. What...

...in the fucking holy hell is going on with my state?

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Response to Purveyor (Original post)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 07:04 PM

9. Michiganians

this is what staying at home during off year elections and thinking that these types of elections are not important gets us. Well with the bills signed this week and this abomination of a law out of committee, think again. These rethugs and tea party nazis have the power.

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Response to heaven05 (Reply #9)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 07:30 PM

12. Yup, my thanks to all MI citizens who found other stuff to do more important than voting in 2010


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Response to heaven05 (Reply #9)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 08:39 PM

20. I know some "liberals" who voted for Snyder

They bought into the "tough nerd" slogan, thinking he was harmless.

Plus, Bernero wasn't that great an opponent. I voted for him just because he had a "D" next to his name. Many didn't.

And the recall of Snyder failed.

Now he has a referendum-proof bill signed, and we're screwed. Unless we can get an amendment to Michigan's constitution, but that can't happen before 2014, I think.

Fuck.

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Response to Purveyor (Original post)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 07:22 PM

10. Stand your playground?

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Response to Purveyor (Original post)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 07:25 PM

11. Someone has to say it: What the hell is wrong with Michigan? Michiganders gone wild!

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Response to Purveyor (Original post)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 07:54 PM

13. protect yourself from gun owners .... get your own gun nt

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Response to Purveyor (Original post)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 08:11 PM

14. repeal the 2nd amendment and

 

round up all the guns. pry them out of cold dead hands if necessary.

this is a bridge too far.

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Response to Phillip McCleod (Reply #14)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 11:27 PM

38. Because "war on drugs" has worked so well...

You think we should now declare a war on guns? Let's say we made ownership of fire arms illegal. This may be an old argument, but it's because it makes sense... *only law abiding citizens would turn in their weapons*. Plenty of criminals own guns too, plenty of people own guns illegally. So in order to "round up" all their guns, we would have to send people with guns to take them. What does this accomplish? Why, just what most of us (I hope) would like to prevent... bullets flying through the streets, enormous body counts, lots and lots of death and destruction... I'm sure you get the idea.

I would not want to live in a Country with you as a Dictator. The 2nd amendment actually exists to protect us from ideas like the one you suggested.

Pry them out of cold dead hands? You'd have to. A whole lot of cold dead hands. If you're willing to pay that price, then you are actually far, far more dangerous than the average gun owner.

I may not own a gun - but if the 2nd amendment is ever repealed, the first thing I will do is go buy one.

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Response to Phillip McCleod (Reply #14)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 03:22 PM

78. Are you trying to start a Civil War? n/t

 

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Response to Purveyor (Original post)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 08:20 PM

15. This country's obsession with guns has got to stop.

My sister and I and her family won't be going to see "Aunt Peggy" for Christmas dinner this year like we usually do because there is a dumbass relative on my brother-in-law's side is going to be there and insists on bringing four -- that's right, four -- loaded handguns into the house with him. My brother-in-law's mother asked "David" to leave the guns locked in his car. "Aunt Peggy" doesn't care. Young kids will be there -- gee, what could go wrong with combining young kids and four loaded handguns? This business about carrying guns everywhere just doesn't make any sense.

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Response to Brigid (Reply #15)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 08:29 PM

17. Guns provide an illusion of power, which is why they have such a tight hold on Americans

If anything they're an albatross that keeps the public killing one another, only heightening the fear.

People who honestly believe that guns will protect them from a real tyrannical government are fools. The people who own the tanks, fighter jets and bombs are the scissors to the gun clingers' paper.

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Response to Brigid (Reply #15)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 09:26 PM

28. How else is he going to protect himself from...whatever is going

to happen over a nice family dinner?

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Response to Brigid (Reply #15)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 11:32 PM

40. You should call him Yosemite Sam

Why the frick does someone need to bring loaded guns to a family dinner? LOL. This isn't the Hatfield or McCoy family, I imagine.

People like that are just plain Looney Tunes, literally. Like Yosemite Sam. If you are so paranoid that you need to bring loaded guns to a family gathering, you are just messed up.

I can't imagine living a life where you have to look over your shoulder or live like an animal in the wild always on the lookout for a predator that may snatch you up.

I wouldn't go to that dinner. If that fellow is that paranoid, he already has something loose in his noggin and it won't take much for him to go over the edge.

If I had kids in that family I sure wouldn't go.

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Response to Brigid (Reply #15)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 10:35 AM

51. So you are worried

 

that he is going to pull them out and shoot you all?

It must suck to live in fear like that...

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Response to AlexSatan (Reply #51)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 12:37 PM

70. Yes, it does. That's why gun nut relative should leave his toys in the car.

They call them deadly weapons for a reason. Just what you need at a family holiday dinner.

Frankly, I would be concerned about someone so attached to his guns that he has to bring four loaded ones to dinner.

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Response to Comrade Grumpy (Reply #70)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 02:11 PM

74. I sure hope you don't have any meat to cut

 

Because you will be using a deadly weapon.

If you think he is going to shoot you, you should report that person to the police immediately. It is unlikely he will wait for a holiday dinner if he plans on doing it.

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Response to Purveyor (Original post)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 08:24 PM

16. Why not? They can oppress the people so much that they fight one another

While the GOP laughs at them.

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Response to Purveyor (Original post)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 08:58 PM

22. WTF???

Snyder needs to be recalled!

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Response to Purveyor (Original post)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 09:20 PM

25. Those mofos in Michigan are batshit crazy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I won guns. Lots of guns. Handguns, rifles, shotguns -- enough to fill up two gun safes -- and I'm telling you, these people are loons!!! But, the NRA has bought and paid for 'em.

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Response to Purveyor (Original post)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 09:28 PM

29. Okay, is it just me, or are they actually trolling citizens into revolts which could be used

 

as an excuse to fire up the indefinite detention clause in the NDAA, justify drones in our skies, maximize for-profit prison populations, and continue doing an enormous power grab remaking the US into a police state?

That's rhetorical.

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Response to Purveyor (Original post)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 10:13 PM

33. I'll bet after the events of this week alot of Dems are re-thinking the guns thing. I can see a

commercial paid for by the AFL-CIO with a bunch of union workers lookin' like a well armed militia saying, "you can pry my union card out of my cold dead hands"

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Response to okaawhatever (Reply #33)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 10:23 PM

35. Just what is an 'alot'? eom

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Response to historylovr (Reply #66)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 12:06 PM

67. LOL. eom

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Response to Purveyor (Original post)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 10:16 PM

34. This is so wrong.

What happens when a depressed child that has problems and no access to guns but finds where his/her teacher "suppose to have the gun locked up" gonna do, leave it alone or use it?

Who will get blamed IF this happened? Why the student of course.

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Response to Purveyor (Original post)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 10:58 PM

36. So private businesses may allow guns because of their rights

But they cant allow smoking if they wanted to?

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Response to Purveyor (Original post)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 11:22 PM

37. I think the world is really gonna end. Crazy shit going on!

 

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Response to Purveyor (Original post)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 11:31 PM

39. Bowling for Columbine part 2

 

Monsieur Moore, are you reading this? Please do a sequel....and soooooon!

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Response to Purveyor (Original post)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 11:45 PM

41. Insanity

I can understand the point of having armed security guards for schools - even to some extent of arming teachers if they are able to responsibly demonstrate adequate knowledge (of their use and what they should NOT be used for) and psychological stability. The idea of permitting concealed guns in schools though? It's moronic. You can't defend against something you can't see, even if you DO have a gun. Someone with their hand in a coat pocket could be preparing to shoot someone in the head - and chances are you'd never know it.

If they're going to be worn or carried in public places, it ought to be in the open. Permitting concealed carry in places like schools only makes it all the more likely that everyone will carry them concealed, legal or not. What a lovely school that would be...

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Response to davidthegnome (Reply #41)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 03:28 PM

80. So, what is keeping people with criminal purposes from carrying right now?

 

Do you actually think they are waiting for the passage of a law? Do you actually think such a law would make carry for criminal intent legal?

Permitting concealed carry in places like schools only makes it all the more likely that everyone will carry them concealed, legal or not.

You really haven't thought this through, have you?

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Response to PavePusher (Reply #80)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 10:22 PM

101. Is that intended as a question?

Or are you just trying to be insulting?

Carrying for criminal intent isn't legal, we also have no way of knowing someone's intent. My point is that a hidden gun, especially worn legally, is sure as hell not going to encourage people to leave theirs at home. Say this person who has this concealed carry permit has a personal feud with a staff member, it could be for any number of reasons. Say this person decides to resolve the issue through violent means...

Granted, these cases are likely to be few and far between, my point is that the knowledge that concealed weapons are carried in school (and *concealed* physically or not, it will be known) will frighten people, perhaps enough so that a normally law abiding student or staff member might wear a gun.

To answer your initial question - this would not be such an issue nor would it require legislation if people were NOT waiting for the passage of such a law. The question I would ask is who... and more importantly, why.

Have I thought this through? Enough to understand that this idea of permitting concealed carry in schools is fucking insane.

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Response to davidthegnome (Reply #101)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:20 AM

105. Again you seem to be saying that the permit enables action that would not be possible without it.

 

And again, this has been legal in other forms and places for quite some time. So where are the problems you can point to as evidence to support your assertions?

Your logic seems to have some disconnects in it.

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Response to Purveyor (Original post)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 11:48 PM

42. It's easier to get a gun then it is to register to vote

Interesting that in this past election there were all kinds of roadblocks put up to prevent certain groups of folks from voting. Or making them go through all kinds hoops to register and to vote.

But to get a gun. Heck, let's make it easier for people to own guns and carry them.

I bet it's the same lawmakers who make it difficult to vote that are making it easier to own a gun.

This country is fucked up.

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Response to rightsideout (Reply #42)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 12:42 PM

118. uh...really?

I don't know about your state, but...I can tell you that it is NOT easier to get a gun than register to vote in IL.

When I bought a gun (strictly because I enjoy target shooting), there was a 3-day waiting period while a background check was performed.

I did not have a waiting period or background check when I registered to vote.

I also needed to provide a state ID to buy a gun, which isn't less than is necessary to register to vote.


I'm not a fan of the concept of concealed carry, and am completely against the kind of roadblocks being put up to prevent the poor, elderly and others from voting. However, this kind of statement doesn't do anything to further your case.

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Response to Purveyor (Original post)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 12:08 AM

43. Teenagers, raging hormones, and the lack of maturity to handle the responsibility...

....required of a gun owner.

Yes indeed....what could possible go wrong?

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Response to OldDem2012 (Reply #43)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 12:57 AM

46. Are you suggesting that the children be armed?

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Response to ManiacJoe (Reply #46)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 07:55 AM

47. Does this "law" say they can't be? Btw, I'm not suggesting anything of the kind....

....and I don't know how any reasonable reader could have inferred that from my post.

What triggered your rather interesting response?

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Response to OldDem2012 (Reply #47)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 10:46 AM

53. You need to be 21 and have a concealed weapon permit.

That rules out all of the students.

> Teenagers, raging hormones, and the lack of maturity to handle the responsibility... ....required of a gun owner.

How else would your post be interpreted other than to suggest arming the students?

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Response to ManiacJoe (Reply #53)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 11:06 AM

60. Utter nonsense. nt.

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Response to OldDem2012 (Reply #47)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 11:12 AM

61. The minimum age to get a concealed weapons permit in that state is 21

 

As is the case in most states.

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Response to OldDem2012 (Reply #47)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 03:30 PM

82. The fact that you are apparently ignorant of what the law says? n/t

 

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Response to PavePusher (Reply #82)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 03:48 PM

87. And how quickly will those idiots change the law to lower the age requirement? nt.

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Response to OldDem2012 (Reply #87)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 04:17 PM

91. Hasn't happened in any state yet.

 

Why are you worried it would?

I'll admit, I'd like to see a single age for all Constitutional Rights. This random patchwrok of 18 or 21 for different things is asinine. If one is old enough to bear arms for one's country, one should be old enough to bear arms for self-defense, buy and drink a shot and a beer, enter legal contracts, get married, etc, etc.

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Response to OldDem2012 (Reply #87)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 08:52 PM

96. it is a federal crime (with few exeptions)

for anyone under 18 to possess a handgun.

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Response to Purveyor (Original post)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 12:22 AM

44. Really tired of DU being used as an anti gun platform.

Over 1/2 of DU members own a gun ...shown by every poll I have seen on DU. Tired of seeing DU members attacked and being called a repuke for owning guns. Would you like to see DU membership cut in half so you can have a gun owner free site?

This Michigan bill: IMO open carry anywhere is a bad thing. Imagine the cops showing up over a report of someone shooting a gun. How do the cops figure out who the shooter is when people open carry?

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Response to L0oniX (Reply #44)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 10:38 PM

102. What a joke

 

> hown by every poll I have seen on DU.

Polls that mostly gungeon Delicate Flowers voted in.

The attempt by NRA acolytes to move DU into "gun-friendly" is obvious and insulting. Liberals are smart. Try the NRA stunts in a place filled with stupidos like repig websites.

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Response to bongbong (Reply #102)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 11:42 PM

103. Hmmm ...Gun Control & RKBA, 119 posts ...looks like you may have an agenda.

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Response to L0oniX (Reply #103)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 03:01 PM

120. Are you a stalker?

 

Bet you just LOVE the latest massacre in CT. What slime Delicate Flowers (gun nutz) are.

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Response to Purveyor (Original post)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 12:57 AM

45. Gee, wonder if they'll let us carry them in the capital at the next protest!

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Response to Purveyor (Original post)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 09:23 AM

48. Why do casinos get an exemption?

What makes carrying a gun in a school A-OK, but not in a casino?

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Response to Purveyor (Original post)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 10:27 AM

50. Hey, what could be safer?

Than a bunch of grade school bullies heading out to recess with their AR-15s?

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Response to primavera (Reply #50)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 10:49 AM

55. You obviously did not read the article.

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Response to ManiacJoe (Reply #55)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 11:22 AM

64. You're right

I skimmed the first couple of paragraphs and didn't get to the part about it applying to concealed carry permit holders. My apologies, I'm going to go wash the egg off of my face now.

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Response to Purveyor (Original post)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 10:42 AM

52. Just wrote an article on NRA and their negative effects

Check out my post on The Stubborn Mule.

I looked at tragedies since VT shooting rampage and then compared them to some of the regulations the NRA opposed and lobbied. During my time as a staffer in the Pennsylvania House of Representatives, I watched disgusted as GOP members halted legislation that aimed to decrease the ability of straw purchasing. (Straw purchasing is when someone buys then sells or gives a gun to someone who is barred from owning one, such as convicted felon or under 21 years old) This legislation was considered to be “common-sense,” a sure and easy way to alleviate a problem to a small degree.

[link:http://unapologeticallyliberal.wordpress.com/2012/12/13/the-killing-routine-nras-effect-on-the-us/|

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Response to TimKeller (Reply #52)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 10:55 AM

57. Create some OPs; let's hear some of you ideas.

Often the "common sense" ideas are great but the devil is in the details.

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Response to TimKeller (Reply #52)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 03:30 PM

81. Blog-spam. Bu-bye now. n/t

 

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Response to Purveyor (Original post)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 11:16 AM

62. "Except federal buildings, courthouses and casinos."

What's up with that?

It's obvious. They KNOW that letting folks have guns in federal buildings and courthouses is asinine. They know those guns will go off. They know innocent people will die. They know it is asking for trouble.

But a school? Well, why not? We don't work there.

We are lawmakers. Keep us safe from the nuts. Now are they more of a target? Yeah. But they are also more well-protected, with armed guards, etc., everywhere.

Point is when they push for guns in federal buildings the inherent danger of firearms everywhere will finally be brought home.

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Response to Purveyor (Original post)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 12:25 PM

68. What the hell is in the water up there??

Its like Attila the Hun was resurrected & took over the state senate in the last 2 weeks.

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Response to Myrina (Reply #68)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 12:20 PM

114. Republicans.......nothing more than bought and sold Republicans. Eom

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Response to Purveyor (Original post)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 12:37 PM

69. OMG

Someone please test the water in Michigan. They've lost their minds.

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Response to Purveyor (Original post)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 01:18 PM

72. Well this is a sure promotion for the NRA so that people will live in

fear and buy more guns. Also, for me personally, more public guns scare me and I have thought sometimes that it could traumatize parts of the population and give psychologically public "dominant" advantage to those with the guns if enough of the public ended up with them.

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Response to glinda (Reply #72)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 03:46 PM

84. This law change actually results in less guns.

Michigan currently allows open carry in the schools. This change would allow only concealed carry, which has age restrictions and background checks.

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Response to Purveyor (Original post)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 01:25 PM

73. "Shootout at the Jungle Gym"

Coming soon to a playground near you!

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Response to Purveyor (Original post)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 03:25 PM

79. man there must be a lot of frightened people in michigan....

i guess illinois is full of them too.

somehow i do`t feel any safer.

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Response to Purveyor (Original post)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 03:33 PM

83. good deal for the gun shops, now they can have 'back to school' sales in August

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Response to olddad56 (Reply #83)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 03:47 PM

86. Not really. See post #84.

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Response to Purveyor (Original post)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 03:51 PM

88. Stop this nonsense by having the right to carry in legislatures and courts.

Tired of laws that endanger everyone but the ones making the laws. If it's ok to carry in schools, it should be ok to carry in the legislature, state, country and city meetings, and in all courts. I wouldn't let my children go to school where other students are openly carrying guns. Hormones are raging in middle school and I don't believe in the survival of the "fittest" or those most able to get away. Have 2 disabled kids and they would never be able to get out of the way and would not carry any weapons and could not defend themselves or others. They get bullied enough as it is.

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Response to kiranon (Reply #88)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 10:00 PM

98. You obviously did not read the article.

No one is talking about arming the students.

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Response to Purveyor (Original post)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 06:24 PM

95. just fucking absurd!!

This is beyond the whole 'right to bear arms' shit.

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Response to and-justice-for-all (Reply #95)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 10:02 PM

99. You, too, did not read the article.

Michigan currently allows adults to open carry in the schools. This change in the law would remove that option and require concealed carry which has an age requirement and background check.

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Response to Purveyor (Original post)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 09:05 PM

97. 6 months tops before someone gets shot and killed.

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Response to NickP (Reply #97)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 10:03 PM

100. Maybe, but not due to this more restrictive law.

Hint: read the article.

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Response to Purveyor (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:04 AM

104. OMG they're arming the children now?

 

the horror. the horror.

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Response to trouble.smith (Reply #104)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 12:08 PM

112. Just in! Law amended to arm fetus! With AK-47s!

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Response to Eleanors38 (Reply #112)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 12:24 PM

115. oh noes, not the fetuses too.

 

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Response to trouble.smith (Reply #115)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 12:30 PM

116. Why, they're gonna arm the thought that brought you into the world!

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Response to Purveyor (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 09:03 AM

106. They passed it last night.

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Response to catbyte (Reply #106)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 10:34 AM

109. Yes and now waiting for the Governors signature. eom

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Response to Purveyor (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 10:12 AM

108. Wow, are we gun obsessed or what?

I just noticed that four of the five threads on LBN page 1 that boast over 100 replies are about gun issues. I sheepishly admit to being a chronic offender in that regard but, damn, we clearly have a lot to say about guns!

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Response to Purveyor (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 12:31 PM

117. Worst. Timing. Ever.

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Response to Purveyor (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 01:06 PM

119. The shooting at the school today actually supports this bill.

Outlawing concealed weapons has no effect on a shooter entering a school.

If teachers were allowed to have concealed weapons, one of them might have been able to stop today's shooter.

I'm not for guns and have never owned one but the fact that armed shooters attack schools does give some credence to the idea that, tragically, allowing guns in schools for defense might have some validity.

There is the possibility of tragic accidents occurring with the guns, of course, and that must be taken into consideration, but when we have a society where shooters enter schools and kill multiple children and teachers, allowing defensive weapons to be available needs to be considered.

It's horrible and something that no one wants to consider but in the reality of today's society, unpleasant options must be part of the discussion.

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