Brig guard: Manning’s depression history made him a suicide risk at Quantico
Source: Associated Press via Washington Post
Updated: Wednesday, December 5, 11:09 AM
FORT MEADE, Md. A former Marine Corps brig supervisor says a history of depression increased the suicide risk of an Army private charged with sending classified documents to WikiLeaks.
Marine Corps Master Sgt. Brian Papakie (pah-PAH-kee) testified Wednesday at a pretrial hearing for Pfc. Bradley Manning at Fort Meade ...
http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/hearing-resumes-at-fort-meade-md-on-wikileaks-suspects-treatment-in-marine-corps-brig/2012/12/05/043e856e-3ed4-11e2-8a5c-473797be602c_story.html
Read more: http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/hearing-resumes-at-fort-meade-md-on-wikileaks-suspects-treatment-in-marine-corps-brig/2012/12/05/043e856e-3ed4-11e2-8a5c-473797be602c_story.html
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)not negate his poor treatment. The treatment he received would have only made his mental health worsen under already difficult conditions. You can see from previous post of mine that I am not a Manning defender. Nor am I a defender of those in charge of his treatment. Manning should receive justice for his actions, and those responsible for his care should receive justice for theirs.
When you take away someones rights and jail them, you are responsible for caring for their basic needs. That includes the best possible mental health given the circumstances. From what I have read, the treatment he received would only lead to a much worse state of mental health.
MH1
(17,595 posts)By "protocol" I mean standard procedure defined, "when someone is classified as a suicide risk, these are the things you must do".
Such a protocol should exist and should be followed. If the guards did something outside the protocol then they should be disciplined. If the protocol is inappropriate it should be corrected. If it can be shown that guards were directed to treat Manning differently than standard procedures required, then whoever directed that should be disciplined.
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)Luminous Animal
(27,310 posts)and removing him from isolation. They felt that he was stable and was no danger to himself and any others. They also felt that his continued isolation was apt to do more harm than good.
struggle4progress
(118,273 posts)Luminous Animal
(27,310 posts)Other guards have testified that no prisoner had been kept in isolation for so long and that Manning's treatment was unusual.
freshwest
(53,661 posts)JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)time in the sunlight and keeping the patient in a tiny, tiny cell with nothing to do?
Very therapeutic. Only watching out for Manning's health, I'm sure. How good of them. (sarcasm)
No prisoner who is manageable should be treated like Manning was. If they weren't depressed when they were first imprisoned, they would be suicidal after a short time.
Pretty lame argument, but it might work.
struggle4progress
(118,273 posts)Manning safely in custody
Magoo48
(4,701 posts)struggle4progress
(118,273 posts)they kill you, it may be unrealistic to expect exceptional sensitivity from the ranks
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)That is a serious moral problem that is eating holes in the fabric of our nation.
The mentality that caused the killing of an innocent journalist, the injuries and deaths to children in the truck in one of the videos that Manning released to Wikileaks and the brutal psychological torture of Manning himself is the same mentality that wants to cut Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid, schools and send our jobs overseas for profit. It is sadism pure and simple.
The people who subject prisoners, Manning and others, to cruel sensory deprivation and torture of a physical nature rationalize their sadism as necessary to keep order and discipline.
Parents who beat their children rationalize their sadism in the same way.
Causing physical and/or moral anguish in others is despicable. Rationalizing it as something good does not make it any less despicable.
PavePusher
(15,374 posts)And a Master Sgt. is not a Psychiatrist.
Talk to the people who actually gave the orders, i.e. the upper brass.
struggle4progress
(118,273 posts)DoYouKnow
(1 post)I think a lot of the prison process of isolation and breaking someone down is to prevent others from feeling empathy for them in a court, for example.
Imagine if someone walked in with a young look on their face and full of youthful energy: It would be likely that the court would treat them in a empathetic manner, as opposed to an individual with a complete lack of emotion and depression after such a treatment.
Basically, you expect your own demons to attack you at any moment, but with such a long time in isolation they seem to predictably arrive at moments where you're still in confinement. There's no point of reference to something in the outside world. Just recollection of bad thoughts going through your head. Bad thoughts get amplified, and good thoughts dissipate. Eventually, no matter how right or wrong you initially were, you are in the wrong. Also, stress leads to wrinkles, facial issues, etc... that deny people the right to a fair trial or treatment - not to mention the difficulty of accessing basic amenities in jail.
It's really just about making you look, feel, and act like a prisoner, to ensure your own maltreatment.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)-- for 23 hours and 40 minutes a day
-- with a bright light on overhead at all times
-- naked and without covers
-- with orders to sit upright on the edge of the bed without touching walls or anything around him for hours at a time
-- and with interruptions to wake him up after allowing short periods of sleep.
Also, the 20 minutes "outside" in a concrete yard are in shackles.
Because that's how you treat the depressed: Make sure they want to kill themselves! Employ the classic techniques of sensory deprivation and mental destruction for breaking prisoners down into zombie states! Partly as developed by the CIA and famously seen in its rendition prisons!
Any further apologetics for torture today? I don't think you've done your daily Kill Assange thread yet.
struggle4progress
(118,273 posts)to suggest that I regularly post supporting that
I have simply taken the view that Assange should go face the sexual allegations in Sweden: I have never even taken the view that Assange is guilty of the Swedish sexual allegations, since I consider that a matter for the Swedish courts to determine
So kindly blow it out your nose
backscatter712
(26,355 posts)struggle4progress
(118,273 posts)GatorLarry
(55 posts)And the ability to make rational arguments.
I see it all the time with my Republican acquaintances.
They deny reality in favor of their bubble-fantasy world.
JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)You'd be first with a thread arguing it was his fault.
struggle4progress
(118,273 posts)AnotherMcIntosh
(11,064 posts)If he was trained to deliver punishment, was he not doing what he was trained to do?
struggle4progress
(118,273 posts)diagnosis, but that wouldn't necessarily mean he wouldn't have any insights into the state-of-mind of a prisoner with whom he regularly interacted
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)I don't understand the relevancy of the guard's rationalizations for having abused and tortured Manning.
What is relevant is how Manning was treated. The guard's personal reasons for what he did do not change the deleterious effect of that treatment on Manning or on Manning's ability to have a fair trial.
struggle4progress
(118,273 posts)but the defense is calling nonexperts, too
A facility may (for example) have some guidelines for determining certain risks, and it certainly has some protocols for responding to possible risks, so nonexperts are inevitably involved in prisoner care
It would be unreasonable to expect the entire staff of a brig or prison to be psychiatrists, and so the observations of non-psychiatric staff may play some role in informing certain administrative decisions
This brig, for example, has a panel that advises the local command about prisoners: this panel seems to include nonpsychiatrists familiar with the patient
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)struggle4progress
(118,273 posts)trying to fix particular issues and details for how the trial will be conducted
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)struggle4progress
(118,273 posts)(1) drop the case; or
(2) give defendant time off any ultimate sentence
The judge obviously should rule on at least part of this motion before trial. So, prior to trial on the actual charges, evidence relevant to the motion is being heard, on the question of whether Manning was treated inappropriately in custody
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)the opinion would also be worthless and the doctor's license should be revoked.
Peace Patriot
(24,010 posts)Those who ordered torture dungeons and mass murder of a hundred thousand innocent people in their bombing of the virtually defenseless city of Baghdad go free, while a young man committed to the truth is in shackles, abused and tortured!
The inequality is mind-boggling!
Those who looted us of trillions of dollars and corrupted our government and our democracy almost beyond recognition go free, to live lives of luxury and security at our expense --and a young man who may have revealed a bit of how this is done, how they loot and lie and murder their way into cushy retirements, is punished with isolation, abused, tortured and silenced!
And I'm sorry but I do NOT recognize any military law that permits this treatment of a whistleblower. Whistleblowers--especially military whistleblowers--should be given "asylum" by somebody--the the DoJ, the president, the state department, but they're all in this together, creating an unaccountable war machine to commit unaccountable crimes in the interest of transglobal corporations, banksters and war profiteers.
Loyalty? Obedience? Bullshit. THEY threw the Uniform Code of Military Justice out the window, along with the Constitution and a whole lot of other laws. NOBODY owes loyalty and obedience to this out-of-control military-industrial complex when it comes to whistleblowing! In any case, the military has become a country unto itself, which demands loyalty to the MILITARY--not to us, not to our democracy, not to our country--to the military--such that, if a soldier is ordered to shoot or bomb us--to slaughter our own people--and he or she won't do it, the punishment is DEATH. There are no "rules of war" any more, even here. It's over! That's how bad it is. As for other human beings in the world, they don't count any more, at all. They are subject to summary execution by anonymous, unaccountable deciders, who don't have to worry about courts, judges, human rights or "collateral damage."
Our government exists in a lawless state that has not been remedied! And I don't care who the 'TRADE SECRET' voting machines tell me who was elected, that is our situation. And for this government to dare to assault a whistleblower in this way--let alone fail to appoint him as an advisor to the National Security Council, to clean that blood-soaked bunch of welfare queens out of our government--which is what should happen--is symptomatic of our sad and helpless state, as a people, as a once great democracy--or, in any case, a democracy created by many great people, high and low, who never stopped struggling for human, civil and labor rights, fairness, justice, the common welfare and good government. They didn't always succeed, and, obviously nothing they struggled, suffered and died for was permanent. But, by God, they tried to give us a better future and certainly passed forward their visions, their dreams, their ideals and their hopes.
Bradley Manning is a product of that history--a young man who believes in open government and the power of the truth. I hope and pray that he survives this terrible ordeal and can one day breathe free in a country that is worthy of him.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)It's not like he was a physical threat to anybody. The worst thing about it is that I think Obama came down on him with both hobnailed boots just to look "tough" in the run-up to re-election.
Please let this be the last time a supposedly liberal president makes that choice.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)It's not like Manning's an axe murderer.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)mommy or daddy. You think Manning would have been safe on any base? Besides, Mom is apparently gravely ill after years of alcoholism, and Dad threw him out after he threatened to stab his stepmother.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)n/t.
JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)the Calleys of the Iraq war. In this case, the whistleblower is supposed to go to prison for life and the Calleys remain free - as do their commanders, as do also the architects of the war of aggression.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)who machine-gunned the civilian men milling around on the street in the "Collateral Murder" video that Manning (allegedly) sent to Wikileaks? Who then also machine gunned the random van passengers who stopped to help the wounded?
Your use of "serviceperson" is patriotic rah-rah, a distracting euphemism. Although they were invaders of a foreign country in a war of aggression, the "service" aren't the primary perpetrators and aren't the point. The architects of this war of aggression - the real criminals - were officials in the Bush regime. They are free and prosper and unmolested by any chance of answering for their crimes, and they even look to return to power. The Iraq war logs (allegedly) released by Manning specify hundreds of specific killing incidents that remain uninvestigated. There is no investigation of the Apache helicopter massacre. We only know about these incidents thanks to Manning (presumably).
randome
(34,845 posts)Last edited Tue Dec 11, 2012, 10:49 PM - Edit history (1)
If Manning had gone through Whistleblower channels, maybe something more could have been made of this.
I don't think you'll find anyone on DU who thinks the Iraq war was not a travesty and that Bush & Company are war criminals. But Manning did not address that. He saw a video of something he found repellant and released it along with hundreds of thousands of classified documents.
He's guilty of leaking national secrets. That's much different than being a whistleblower.
(Just in case anyone wants to respond to this: I'm on my way to take my daughter to her school concert.)
struggle4progress
(118,273 posts)work in a warzone, released to the world thousands and thousands of military documents related to the war
markpkessinger
(8,392 posts). . . by someone who is not a mental health professional and thus has no particular qualification to evaluate suicide risks even be permitted in a civilian court? I seriously doubt it!
MannyGoldstein
(34,589 posts)After all, he's been found GUILTY in a court of law!
Regards,
Third-Way Manny
Azathoth
(4,607 posts)Sigh.
markpkessinger
(8,392 posts). . . was all about preventing suicide.
struggle4progress
(118,273 posts)There was one day, or perhaps two, when Manning stood naked at the front of his cell in the morning. This was while the government was attempting to work out the proper response to his statements about committing suicide. There has been testimony that he was not instructed to do so. In any case, it certainly did not occur "every morning"
Azathoth
(4,607 posts)Manning was apparently required the first morning after being put on suicide watch to stand at attention before putting his clothes on. This one event was then spun by a wildly unethical lawyer and a swath of true-believers into a systematic torture regime that made the auto-da-fe and the stuff done by Pol Pot seem like Sunday picnics.
JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)had nothing to do with suicide prevention. In fact, if you were to design a suicide encouragement program, it might look exactly like what they did to him. Torture is the correct, conventional description.
Azathoth
(4,607 posts)Makes perfect sense
JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)I'm sorry you're having trouble dealing with it, and seem to prefer the government's excuses. They didn't do anything to prevent suicide. They tortured him. The effect and surely the intent of these measures were punitive. Doubtless also to break the man. Same kind of things as are done at Guantanamo and in the various experimental tortures tried out on "war on terror" prisoners.
Zorra
(27,670 posts)Sunlei
(22,651 posts)or bite his veins out.
I think this man has been punished enough. Release him with a bad discharge and lifetime military care.