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Wed Dec 5, 2012, 11:22 AM

Brig guard: Manning’s depression history made him a suicide risk at Quantico

Source: Associated Press via Washington Post

Updated: Wednesday, December 5, 11:09 AM

FORT MEADE, Md. — A former Marine Corps brig supervisor says a history of depression increased the suicide risk of an Army private charged with sending classified documents to WikiLeaks.

Marine Corps Master Sgt. Brian Papakie (pah-PAH’-kee) testified Wednesday at a pretrial hearing for Pfc. Bradley Manning at Fort Meade ...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/hearing-resumes-at-fort-meade-md-on-wikileaks-suspects-treatment-in-marine-corps-brig/2012/12/05/043e856e-3ed4-11e2-8a5c-473797be602c_story.html

Read more: http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/hearing-resumes-at-fort-meade-md-on-wikileaks-suspects-treatment-in-marine-corps-brig/2012/12/05/043e856e-3ed4-11e2-8a5c-473797be602c_story.html

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Reply Brig guard: Manning’s depression history made him a suicide risk at Quantico (Original post)
struggle4progress Dec 2012 OP
NCTraveler Dec 2012 #1
MH1 Dec 2012 #7
NCTraveler Dec 2012 #9
Luminous Animal Dec 2012 #15
struggle4progress Dec 2012 #16
Luminous Animal Dec 2012 #20
freshwest Dec 2012 #22
JDPriestly Dec 2012 #2
struggle4progress Dec 2012 #10
Magoo48 Dec 2012 #18
struggle4progress Dec 2012 #19
JDPriestly Dec 2012 #23
PavePusher Dec 2012 #29
struggle4progress Dec 2012 #30
DoYouKnow Dec 2012 #39
hrmjustin Dec 2012 #40
JDPriestly Dec 2012 #43
JackRiddler Dec 2012 #3
struggle4progress Dec 2012 #6
backscatter712 Dec 2012 #11
struggle4progress Dec 2012 #14
GatorLarry Dec 2012 #27
JackRiddler Dec 2012 #12
struggle4progress Dec 2012 #13
AnotherMcIntosh Dec 2012 #4
struggle4progress Dec 2012 #5
JDPriestly Dec 2012 #24
struggle4progress Dec 2012 #28
JDPriestly Dec 2012 #31
struggle4progress Dec 2012 #44
JDPriestly Dec 2012 #45
struggle4progress Dec 2012 #48
JDPriestly Dec 2012 #57
JackRiddler Dec 2012 #8
Peace Patriot Dec 2012 #17
JDPriestly Dec 2012 #32
Ken Burch Dec 2012 #21
msanthrope Dec 2012 #33
Ken Burch Dec 2012 #34
msanthrope Dec 2012 #38
Ken Burch Dec 2012 #41
JackRiddler Dec 2012 #54
msanthrope Dec 2012 #55
JackRiddler Dec 2012 #56
randome Dec 2012 #58
struggle4progress Dec 2012 #37
markpkessinger Dec 2012 #25
MannyGoldstein Dec 2012 #26
Azathoth Dec 2012 #35
markpkessinger Dec 2012 #42
struggle4progress Dec 2012 #49
Azathoth Dec 2012 #51
JackRiddler Dec 2012 #53
JackRiddler Dec 2012 #46
Azathoth Dec 2012 #50
JackRiddler Dec 2012 #52
Zorra Dec 2012 #36
Sunlei Dec 2012 #47

Response to struggle4progress (Original post)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 11:54 AM

1. The fact that he may have been at risk for suicide does.....

not negate his poor treatment. The treatment he received would have only made his mental health worsen under already difficult conditions. You can see from previous post of mine that I am not a Manning defender. Nor am I a defender of those in charge of his treatment. Manning should receive justice for his actions, and those responsible for his care should receive justice for theirs.

When you take away someones rights and jail them, you are responsible for caring for their basic needs. That includes the best possible mental health given the circumstances. From what I have read, the treatment he received would only lead to a much worse state of mental health.

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Response to NCTraveler (Reply #1)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 12:22 PM

7. The question is, was there a protocol and was it followed.

By "protocol" I mean standard procedure defined, "when someone is classified as a suicide risk, these are the things you must do".

Such a protocol should exist and should be followed. If the guards did something outside the protocol then they should be disciplined. If the protocol is inappropriate it should be corrected. If it can be shown that guards were directed to treat Manning differently than standard procedures required, then whoever directed that should be disciplined.

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Response to MH1 (Reply #7)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 12:23 PM

9. Agree on all points. nt.

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Response to MH1 (Reply #7)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 05:54 PM

15. Manning's psychiatrists repeatedly advised taking Manning off 24 hour watch

and removing him from isolation. They felt that he was stable and was no danger to himself and any others. They also felt that his continued isolation was apt to do more harm than good.

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Response to Luminous Animal (Reply #15)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 06:02 PM

16. How do you feel about Michael A. Webb's suicide at Quantico?

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Response to struggle4progress (Reply #16)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 06:54 PM

20. That is why I mentioned psychiatrists (plural)...

Other guards have testified that no prisoner had been kept in isolation for so long and that Manning's treatment was unusual.

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Response to NCTraveler (Reply #1)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 10:27 PM

22. Yes, knowing he had a problem, he should have been treated for that. He was neglected.

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Response to struggle4progress (Original post)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 11:54 AM

2. So, depression is to be treated by severely limiting the patient's

time in the sunlight and keeping the patient in a tiny, tiny cell with nothing to do?

Very therapeutic. Only watching out for Manning's health, I'm sure. How good of them. (sarcasm)

No prisoner who is manageable should be treated like Manning was. If they weren't depressed when they were first imprisoned, they would be suicidal after a short time.

Pretty lame argument, but it might work.

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Response to JDPriestly (Reply #2)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 12:45 PM

10. Papakie's job was not to treat Manning's depression but to maintain

Manning safely in custody

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Response to struggle4progress (Reply #10)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 06:08 PM

18. Doing one's job, following orders.....cruelty is cruelty.

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Response to Magoo48 (Reply #18)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 06:43 PM

19. Given that the military traditionally teaches one to kill enemies before

they kill you, it may be unrealistic to expect exceptional sensitivity from the ranks

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Response to struggle4progress (Reply #19)

Thu Dec 6, 2012, 12:38 AM

23. This is what Manning's disclosures were about -- the excessive cruelty in the military.

That is a serious moral problem that is eating holes in the fabric of our nation.

The mentality that caused the killing of an innocent journalist, the injuries and deaths to children in the truck in one of the videos that Manning released to Wikileaks and the brutal psychological torture of Manning himself is the same mentality that wants to cut Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid, schools and send our jobs overseas for profit. It is sadism pure and simple.

The people who subject prisoners, Manning and others, to cruel sensory deprivation and torture of a physical nature rationalize their sadism as necessary to keep order and discipline.

Parents who beat their children rationalize their sadism in the same way.

Causing physical and/or moral anguish in others is despicable. Rationalizing it as something good does not make it any less despicable.

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Response to struggle4progress (Reply #19)

Thu Dec 6, 2012, 02:35 PM

29. We're not killing machines, but thanks for the smear.

 

And a Master Sgt. is not a Psychiatrist.

Talk to the people who actually gave the orders, i.e. the upper brass.

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Response to PavePusher (Reply #29)

Thu Dec 6, 2012, 03:08 PM

30. I doubt I ever called you, or anyone else, a killing machine

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Response to JDPriestly (Reply #2)

Fri Dec 7, 2012, 05:25 PM

39. Breaking down a prisoner, and empathy

I think a lot of the prison process of isolation and breaking someone down is to prevent others from feeling empathy for them in a court, for example.
Imagine if someone walked in with a young look on their face and full of youthful energy: It would be likely that the court would treat them in a empathetic manner, as opposed to an individual with a complete lack of emotion and depression after such a treatment.
Basically, you expect your own demons to attack you at any moment, but with such a long time in isolation they seem to predictably arrive at moments where you're still in confinement. There's no point of reference to something in the outside world. Just recollection of bad thoughts going through your head. Bad thoughts get amplified, and good thoughts dissipate. Eventually, no matter how right or wrong you initially were, you are in the wrong. Also, stress leads to wrinkles, facial issues, etc... that deny people the right to a fair trial or treatment - not to mention the difficulty of accessing basic amenities in jail.

It's really just about making you look, feel, and act like a prisoner, to ensure your own maltreatment.

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Response to DoYouKnow (Reply #39)

Fri Dec 7, 2012, 05:30 PM

40. I hope they free Manning! Welcome to DU and enjoy the site.

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Response to DoYouKnow (Reply #39)

Mon Dec 10, 2012, 12:17 PM

43. Thanks. I don't know how it feels, but I believe what you say is most likely true.

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Response to struggle4progress (Original post)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 12:02 PM

3. Which is why we locked him in a walk-in closet...

-- for 23 hours and 40 minutes a day

-- with a bright light on overhead at all times

-- naked and without covers

-- with orders to sit upright on the edge of the bed without touching walls or anything around him for hours at a time

-- and with interruptions to wake him up after allowing short periods of sleep.

Also, the 20 minutes "outside" in a concrete yard are in shackles.

Because that's how you treat the depressed: Make sure they want to kill themselves! Employ the classic techniques of sensory deprivation and mental destruction for breaking prisoners down into zombie states! Partly as developed by the CIA and famously seen in its rendition prisons!

Any further apologetics for torture today? I don't think you've done your daily Kill Assange thread yet.

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Response to JackRiddler (Reply #3)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 12:22 PM

6. I have never advocated killing Assange, so it's really dishonest of you

to suggest that I regularly post supporting that

I have simply taken the view that Assange should go face the sexual allegations in Sweden: I have never even taken the view that Assange is guilty of the Swedish sexual allegations, since I consider that a matter for the Swedish courts to determine

So kindly blow it out your nose

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Response to struggle4progress (Reply #6)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 01:01 PM

11. No, you just advocate driving him to want to kill himself. n/t

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Response to backscatter712 (Reply #11)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 01:26 PM

14. I guess ideological commitments can indeed affect reading comprehension

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Response to struggle4progress (Reply #14)

Thu Dec 6, 2012, 07:20 AM

27. Yep . . .

And the ability to make rational arguments.

I see it all the time with my Republican acquaintances.

They deny reality in favor of their bubble-fantasy world.

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Response to struggle4progress (Reply #6)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 01:07 PM

12. But if he were to be killed...

You'd be first with a thread arguing it was his fault.

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Response to JackRiddler (Reply #12)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 01:22 PM

13. Fantasy premonitions of a hallucinated future are useless for reality-based discussion

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Response to struggle4progress (Original post)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 12:08 PM

4. If this witness did not go to medical school, his opinion is as worthless as all other untrained

 

personnel opinions.

If he was trained to deliver punishment, was he not doing what he was trained to do?

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Response to AnotherMcIntosh (Reply #4)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 12:10 PM

5. If he didn't go to medical school, then he wouldn't be fit to offer a medical

diagnosis, but that wouldn't necessarily mean he wouldn't have any insights into the state-of-mind of a prisoner with whom he regularly interacted

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Response to struggle4progress (Reply #5)

Thu Dec 6, 2012, 12:41 AM

24. In a normal civil court, only experts are allowed to give their personal opinions and judgments.

I don't understand the relevancy of the guard's rationalizations for having abused and tortured Manning.

What is relevant is how Manning was treated. The guard's personal reasons for what he did do not change the deleterious effect of that treatment on Manning or on Manning's ability to have a fair trial.

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Response to JDPriestly (Reply #24)

Thu Dec 6, 2012, 12:07 PM

28. Without seeing the transcript, I can't know for certain why they've been called,

but the defense is calling nonexperts, too

A facility may (for example) have some guidelines for determining certain risks, and it certainly has some protocols for responding to possible risks, so nonexperts are inevitably involved in prisoner care

It would be unreasonable to expect the entire staff of a brig or prison to be psychiatrists, and so the observations of non-psychiatric staff may play some role in informing certain administrative decisions

This brig, for example, has a panel that advises the local command about prisoners: this panel seems to include nonpsychiatrists familiar with the patient


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Response to struggle4progress (Reply #28)

Thu Dec 6, 2012, 10:16 PM

31. It might be just to get a better understanding and corroboration of what happened.

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Response to JDPriestly (Reply #31)

Mon Dec 10, 2012, 12:25 PM

44. This is pretrial hearing, not investigation. At this stage, prosecution and defense are

trying to fix particular issues and details for how the trial will be conducted

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Response to struggle4progress (Reply #44)

Mon Dec 10, 2012, 03:49 PM

45. Why is this evidence being introduced if it is just pretrial?

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Response to JDPriestly (Reply #45)

Mon Dec 10, 2012, 04:12 PM

48. On the alleged grounds of punitive treatment in custody, defense has moved either:

(1) drop the case; or
(2) give defendant time off any ultimate sentence

The judge obviously should rule on at least part of this motion before trial. So, prior to trial on the actual charges, evidence relevant to the motion is being heard, on the question of whether Manning was treated inappropriately in custody

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Response to struggle4progress (Reply #48)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 05:58 PM

57. Thanks.

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Response to AnotherMcIntosh (Reply #4)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 12:22 PM

8. If a doctor gave this opinion with full knowledge of Manning's treatment...

the opinion would also be worthless and the doctor's license should be revoked.

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Response to struggle4progress (Original post)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 06:06 PM

17. What the U.S. government has done to Bradley Manning is disgraceful and criminal!

Those who ordered torture dungeons and mass murder of a hundred thousand innocent people in their bombing of the virtually defenseless city of Baghdad go free, while a young man committed to the truth is in shackles, abused and tortured!

The inequality is mind-boggling!

Those who looted us of trillions of dollars and corrupted our government and our democracy almost beyond recognition go free, to live lives of luxury and security at our expense --and a young man who may have revealed a bit of how this is done, how they loot and lie and murder their way into cushy retirements, is punished with isolation, abused, tortured and silenced!

And I'm sorry but I do NOT recognize any military law that permits this treatment of a whistleblower. Whistleblowers--especially military whistleblowers--should be given "asylum" by somebody--the the DoJ, the president, the state department, but they're all in this together, creating an unaccountable war machine to commit unaccountable crimes in the interest of transglobal corporations, banksters and war profiteers.

Loyalty? Obedience? Bullshit. THEY threw the Uniform Code of Military Justice out the window, along with the Constitution and a whole lot of other laws. NOBODY owes loyalty and obedience to this out-of-control military-industrial complex when it comes to whistleblowing! In any case, the military has become a country unto itself, which demands loyalty to the MILITARY--not to us, not to our democracy, not to our country--to the military--such that, if a soldier is ordered to shoot or bomb us--to slaughter our own people--and he or she won't do it, the punishment is DEATH. There are no "rules of war" any more, even here. It's over! That's how bad it is. As for other human beings in the world, they don't count any more, at all. They are subject to summary execution by anonymous, unaccountable deciders, who don't have to worry about courts, judges, human rights or "collateral damage."

Our government exists in a lawless state that has not been remedied! And I don't care who the 'TRADE SECRET' voting machines tell me who was elected, that is our situation. And for this government to dare to assault a whistleblower in this way--let alone fail to appoint him as an advisor to the National Security Council, to clean that blood-soaked bunch of welfare queens out of our government--which is what should happen--is symptomatic of our sad and helpless state, as a people, as a once great democracy--or, in any case, a democracy created by many great people, high and low, who never stopped struggling for human, civil and labor rights, fairness, justice, the common welfare and good government. They didn't always succeed, and, obviously nothing they struggled, suffered and died for was permanent. But, by God, they tried to give us a better future and certainly passed forward their visions, their dreams, their ideals and their hopes.

Bradley Manning is a product of that history--a young man who believes in open government and the power of the truth. I hope and pray that he survives this terrible ordeal and can one day breathe free in a country that is worthy of him.



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Response to Peace Patriot (Reply #17)

Fri Dec 7, 2012, 01:39 AM

32. Well said. Thanks.

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Response to struggle4progress (Original post)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 07:00 PM

21. If they had to hold Manning in custody, they SHOULD have just put him on house arrest.

It's not like he was a physical threat to anybody. The worst thing about it is that I think Obama came down on him with both hobnailed boots just to look "tough" in the run-up to re-election.

Please let this be the last time a supposedly liberal president makes that choice.

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #21)

Fri Dec 7, 2012, 02:16 AM

33. House Arrest? Where? nt

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Response to msanthrope (Reply #33)

Fri Dec 7, 2012, 02:49 AM

34. His parent's house would have worked.

It's not like Manning's an axe murderer.

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #34)

Fri Dec 7, 2012, 04:49 PM

38. House arrest like William Calley got? House arrest in the military is to your quarters, not to

mommy or daddy. You think Manning would have been safe on any base? Besides, Mom is apparently gravely ill after years of alcoholism, and Dad threw him out after he threatened to stab his stepmother.

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Response to msanthrope (Reply #38)

Fri Dec 7, 2012, 08:46 PM

41. Was not aware of his family situation.

n/t.

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Response to msanthrope (Reply #38)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 12:00 PM

54. Calley makes for an apt reference. Seeing as how Manning exposed...

the Calleys of the Iraq war. In this case, the whistleblower is supposed to go to prison for life and the Calleys remain free - as do their commanders, as do also the architects of the war of aggression.

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Response to JackRiddler (Reply #54)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 12:42 PM

55. Name a single serviceperson Manning 'exposed' who you think compares to William Calley. nt

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Response to msanthrope (Reply #55)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 05:34 PM

56. Did they identify the Apache helicopter crew

who machine-gunned the civilian men milling around on the street in the "Collateral Murder" video that Manning (allegedly) sent to Wikileaks? Who then also machine gunned the random van passengers who stopped to help the wounded?

Your use of "serviceperson" is patriotic rah-rah, a distracting euphemism. Although they were invaders of a foreign country in a war of aggression, the "service" aren't the primary perpetrators and aren't the point. The architects of this war of aggression - the real criminals - were officials in the Bush regime. They are free and prosper and unmolested by any chance of answering for their crimes, and they even look to return to power. The Iraq war logs (allegedly) released by Manning specify hundreds of specific killing incidents that remain uninvestigated. There is no investigation of the Apache helicopter massacre. We only know about these incidents thanks to Manning (presumably).

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Response to JackRiddler (Reply #56)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 06:32 PM

58. I think that's sort of the point. Nothing happened.

Last edited Tue Dec 11, 2012, 09:49 PM - Edit history (1)

If Manning had gone through Whistleblower channels, maybe something more could have been made of this.

I don't think you'll find anyone on DU who thinks the Iraq war was not a travesty and that Bush & Company are war criminals. But Manning did not address that. He saw a video of something he found repellant and released it along with hundreds of thousands of classified documents.

He's guilty of leaking national secrets. That's much different than being a whistleblower.

(Just in case anyone wants to respond to this: I'm on my way to take my daughter to her school concert.)

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #21)

Fri Dec 7, 2012, 01:49 PM

37. That would have been a most unusual response to a soldier who, assigned to security intelligence

work in a warzone, released to the world thousands and thousands of military documents related to the war



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Response to struggle4progress (Original post)

Thu Dec 6, 2012, 12:44 AM

25. Would such testimony . . .

. . . by someone who is not a mental health professional and thus has no particular qualification to evaluate suicide risks even be permitted in a civilian court? I seriously doubt it!

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Response to struggle4progress (Original post)

Thu Dec 6, 2012, 12:48 AM

26. Manning's treatment is TOTALLY JUSTIFIED

After all, he's been found GUILTY in a court of law!

Regards,

Third-Way Manny

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Response to struggle4progress (Original post)

Fri Dec 7, 2012, 02:53 AM

35. Of course, if Manning had killed himself, his backers would now be accusing the gov of murdering him

Sigh.

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Response to Azathoth (Reply #35)

Fri Dec 7, 2012, 08:51 PM

42. Riiiight -- and making him stand naked in front of his cell every morning . . .

. . . was all about preventing suicide.

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Response to markpkessinger (Reply #42)

Mon Dec 10, 2012, 04:18 PM

49. Manning was not forced to "stand naked in front of his cell every morning"

There was one day, or perhaps two, when Manning stood naked at the front of his cell in the morning. This was while the government was attempting to work out the proper response to his statements about committing suicide. There has been testimony that he was not instructed to do so. In any case, it certainly did not occur "every morning"

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Response to markpkessinger (Reply #42)

Mon Dec 10, 2012, 11:16 PM

51. Except that story is 99% fabricated, almost like a left-wing version of a Faux News "exclusive"

Manning was apparently required the first morning after being put on suicide watch to stand at attention before putting his clothes on. This one event was then spun by a wildly unethical lawyer and a swath of true-believers into a systematic torture regime that made the auto-da-fe and the stuff done by Pol Pot seem like Sunday picnics.

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Response to Azathoth (Reply #51)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 11:57 AM

53. Shame on you for these lies.

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Response to Azathoth (Reply #35)

Mon Dec 10, 2012, 04:06 PM

46. Correctly, since the program to which the govt subjected him...

had nothing to do with suicide prevention. In fact, if you were to design a suicide encouragement program, it might look exactly like what they did to him. Torture is the correct, conventional description.

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Response to JackRiddler (Reply #46)

Mon Dec 10, 2012, 11:06 PM

50. Yes, it was suicide encouragement, except that it prevented him from committing suicide

Makes perfect sense

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Response to Azathoth (Reply #50)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 11:54 AM

52. It was torture and your government was responsible.

I'm sorry you're having trouble dealing with it, and seem to prefer the government's excuses. They didn't do anything to prevent suicide. They tortured him. The effect and surely the intent of these measures were punitive. Doubtless also to break the man. Same kind of things as are done at Guantanamo and in the various experimental tortures tried out on "war on terror" prisoners.

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Response to struggle4progress (Original post)

Fri Dec 7, 2012, 12:47 PM

36. Well, then, that certainly justifies torturing him, for sure!




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Response to struggle4progress (Original post)

Mon Dec 10, 2012, 04:11 PM

47. Quantico 'made him worse, more depressed. They are lucky he didn't bash his bare head into concrete

or bite his veins out.

I think this man has been punished enough. Release him with a bad discharge and lifetime military care.

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