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Thu Nov 29, 2012, 12:59 AM

Palestinians certain to win recognition as a state

Source: Chron

UNITED NATIONS (AP) — The Palestinians are certain to win U.N. recognition as a state on Thursday but success could exact a high price: delaying an independent state of Palestine because of Israel's vehement opposition.

The United States, Israel's closest ally, mounted an aggressive campaign to head off the General Assembly vote, which the Palestinians view as a historic step in their quest for global recognition.

The Palestinians say they need U.N. recognition of a Palestinian state in the West Bank, Gaza and east Jerusalem, the lands Israel captured in 1967, to be able to resume negotiations with Israel — and statehood could also open the way for possible war crimes charges against the Jewish state at the International Criminal Court.

In a last-ditch move Wednesday, U.S. Deputy Secretary of State William Burns made a personal appeal to Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas promising that President Barack Obama would re-engage as a mediator in 2013 if Abbas abandoned the effort to seek statehood. But the Palestinian leader refused, said Abbas aide Saeb Erekat.

Read more: http://www.chron.com/news/us/article/Palestinians-certain-to-win-recognition-as-a-state-4075612.php



Historic, really. And while for most Americans these issues are somewhat abstract at best, this progression toward U.N. recognition as a state is bound to bring about a new phase in Middle East Peace negotiations...whether the United States and Israel are favorable to the move or not.

The world is bigger than the desires of the United States and Israel and that bigger world will have its say on the matter, tomorrow. Perhaps, if only as a reminder of same.

PB

60 replies, 7208 views

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Arrow 60 replies Author Time Post
Reply Palestinians certain to win recognition as a state (Original post)
Poll_Blind Nov 2012 OP
Fearless Nov 2012 #1
King_David Nov 2012 #46
Agnosticsherbet Nov 2012 #53
King_David Nov 2012 #54
Agnosticsherbet Nov 2012 #55
King_David Nov 2012 #56
x2 vancouverite Nov 2012 #2
Katashi_itto Nov 2012 #29
byeya Nov 2012 #35
Hayabusa Nov 2012 #43
truebrit71 Nov 2012 #51
rightsideout Nov 2012 #3
Scootaloo Nov 2012 #4
GitRDun Nov 2012 #5
plethoro Nov 2012 #6
Justin_Beach Nov 2012 #7
ZombieHorde Nov 2012 #8
David__77 Nov 2012 #9
aquart Nov 2012 #13
David__77 Nov 2012 #14
JDPriestly Nov 2012 #38
muriel_volestrangler Nov 2012 #34
ZombieHorde Nov 2012 #17
JDPriestly Nov 2012 #39
Behind the Aegis Nov 2012 #10
ZombieHorde Nov 2012 #16
Behind the Aegis Nov 2012 #18
x2 vancouverite Nov 2012 #19
Behind the Aegis Nov 2012 #21
x2 vancouverite Nov 2012 #22
Behind the Aegis Nov 2012 #23
x2 vancouverite Nov 2012 #24
Behind the Aegis Nov 2012 #25
x2 vancouverite Nov 2012 #26
Behind the Aegis Nov 2012 #27
x2 vancouverite Nov 2012 #31
Behind the Aegis Nov 2012 #32
x2 vancouverite Nov 2012 #33
JDPriestly Nov 2012 #40
azurnoir Nov 2012 #44
JDPriestly Nov 2012 #48
azurnoir Nov 2012 #50
King_David Nov 2012 #57
azurnoir Nov 2012 #58
Scootaloo Nov 2012 #60
ZombieHorde Nov 2012 #42
David Zephyr Nov 2012 #45
Alamuti Lotus Nov 2012 #15
Chef Eric Nov 2012 #30
JDPriestly Nov 2012 #37
ReRe Nov 2012 #11
aquart Nov 2012 #12
dipsydoodle Nov 2012 #20
Chemisse Nov 2012 #28
leveymg Nov 2012 #36
bunnies Nov 2012 #41
Scootaloo Nov 2012 #59
Comrade_McKenzie Nov 2012 #47
Poll_Blind Nov 2012 #49
truebrit71 Nov 2012 #52

Response to Poll_Blind (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 01:18 AM

1. Again the US is on the WRONG side of history on this issue.

Get over it. People of the right to international recognition of their soverignty. You'd think we'd understand where they were coming from?

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Response to Fearless (Reply #1)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 04:32 PM

46. I wish they would make LGBT rights a condition of recognition,

The should force them to follow Israel`s example in this regard.

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Response to King_David (Reply #46)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 07:57 PM

53. No Islamic Country I know of guarantees those rights.

Though the U.N. has moved to afrim those rights, they can not mandate nations do so. It would likely lead to the failure of the resolution.

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Response to Agnosticsherbet (Reply #53)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 08:12 PM

54. These rights are more important than the resolution

They should force them on all countries Islamic or not.If its "cultural" well fuck that culture , they should change . Recognition should be withheld without it .

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Response to King_David (Reply #54)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 08:17 PM

55. The UN doesn't have the authority or power to force those ideals on anyone...

I agree they are of critical importance, but the UN has no power to force anyone to do anything, at all.

For the foreseeable future, I suspect that Israel will be the only state in the region in which the rights of gays and Lesbians are guaranteed in any way.

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Response to Agnosticsherbet (Reply #55)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 11:33 PM

56. I agree nt

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Response to Poll_Blind (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 01:32 AM

2. "The United States, Israel's closest ally..."

 

Uh. no. "Israel's stupid lackey" is more apt.

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Response to x2 vancouverite (Reply #2)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 05:33 AM

29. +1000

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Response to Katashi_itto (Reply #29)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 08:16 AM

35. another +1000

 

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Response to byeya (Reply #35)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 01:33 PM

43. +1000=3000

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Response to Hayabusa (Reply #43)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 05:36 PM

51. +1000=4000

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Response to Poll_Blind (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 01:34 AM

3. Give the Palestinians their land.

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Response to Poll_Blind (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 01:39 AM

4. William Burns made one big miscalculation...

In a last-ditch move Wednesday, U.S. Deputy Secretary of State William Burns made a personal appeal to Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas promising that President Barack Obama would re-engage as a mediator in 2013 if Abbas abandoned the effort to seek statehood. But the Palestinian leader refused, said Abbas aide Saeb Erekat.


The entire reason the Palestinians are taking this route is because the United States has failed repeatedly as a "mediator." The United States does not mediate. The United States backs Israel. Regardless of if you think that's a good thing or not, there's no way for that to be called "mediation."

Offering the Palestinians more of the same if they stop their bid to get around "more of the same" is ridiculous.

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #4)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 02:07 AM

5. You have it exactly correct!

We have met the enemy and he is us!

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Response to Poll_Blind (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 02:26 AM

6. I thinks this is great news. The US is losing its importance..............nft

 

dddddddddddd

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Response to Poll_Blind (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 02:27 AM

7. Anything that stops the record from skipping

I'm 42 and for most of my life (since the Carter admin) the situation has barely moved. The Palestinians throw rocks and fire rockets, the Israeli's shoot, bomb and sanction, all the while the settlements keep eating up Palestinian territory. (Territory the UN has already said they can't have).

While all of this is going on there are negotiations and rumors of negotiations, the western world wrings its hands and says that it's terrible and something should be done (while giving financial support and weapons to Israel) but it never quite amounts to anything and the whole thing just continues to repeat itself.

I can't say that this will fix anything but at this point anything that changes the dynamic has to be seen as a step forward, if only because the ground shifts a bit.

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Response to Poll_Blind (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 02:57 AM

8. "open the way for possible war crimes charges against the Jewish state"

Am I the only one that thinks the term "Jewish state" is strange?

Palestine is not referred to as an "Islamic state."

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Response to ZombieHorde (Reply #8)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 03:11 AM

9. Israel calls itself a Jewish state. In fact, it is illegal there to support changing that.

The PA does not exercise sovereignty over any territory and so is not a state, and does not define as a "Muslim state," which would be different from being an "Islamic state" in any case.

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Response to David__77 (Reply #9)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 03:54 AM

13. I expect Coptic Christians to move right in, don't you?

And surely the Palestinians will make the Baha'i feel welcome.

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Response to aquart (Reply #13)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 04:04 AM

14. You certainly misunderstand my post.

Hardly do I mean that somehow the areas nominally administered by the PA are more progressive or enlightened regarding minority religious groups - quite to the contrary. Israel is not a "Jewish state" in the sense of being guided by Jewish religious law, and many people misunderstand that. In that regard, it is light years better than the "Islamic republics."

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Response to David__77 (Reply #14)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 10:15 AM

38. UN Resolution 181 of November 27, 1947

referred to Israel as a Jewish State. Israel was established by the United Nations as a Jewish State.

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Peace%20Process/Guide%20to%20the%20Peace%20Process/UN%20General%20Assembly%20Resolution%20181

That does not mean that it is a religious state or that people of other religions do not live there. That just is the language used in the UN resolution that established two states and instructed mandate troops to leave.

Prior to the partition into two areas, the entire area was first under Turkish, Ottoman Empire rule and then under British mandate.

Israelis have managed to form a viable government. Palestinians never have. They still don't seem to be able to prevent their population from throwing rocks, etc.

Before a country can claim to be a nation, it has to prove that it actually controls the territory it would like to represent. "Palestine" appears to have two governments and does not seem to have as much control of its population as a nation should have in terms of relationships with its neighbors.

Can you imagine people on the border of the US throwing rocks or other things at people in Mexico without the US government taking punitive action against those throwing stuff? Unthinkable in the 20th century.

So there is a big question as to whether Palestine is really one nation or two or really maybe just a mob.

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Response to aquart (Reply #13)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 06:45 AM

34. There are Christian Palestinians already (nt)

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Response to David__77 (Reply #9)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 04:31 AM

17. "Israel calls itself a Jewish state."

That is a pretty good point.

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Response to ZombieHorde (Reply #17)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 10:21 AM

39. Actually, the United Nations established Israel

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Response to ZombieHorde (Reply #8)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 03:25 AM

10. No, you aren't the only one who thinks that way.

However, there is a reason for it, and it is important, if that matters.

Who cares if Palestine isn't referred to as an "Islamic state?" Why is that material?

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Reply #10)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 04:31 AM

16. "Why is that material?"

Consistency.

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Response to ZombieHorde (Reply #16)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 04:35 AM

18. How is that relevant?

Why is it material for a future Palestine to be a Muslim state because Israel is known as a Jewish state?

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Reply #18)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 04:52 AM

19. 2+2=4

 

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Response to x2 vancouverite (Reply #19)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 05:08 AM

21. Good. But this is 2+2=5

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Reply #21)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 05:10 AM

22. Of course!

 

AIPAC Math

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Response to x2 vancouverite (Reply #22)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 05:17 AM

23. No, it is actual math, unlike the crap you are peddling.

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Reply #23)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 05:19 AM

24. Do explain :-)

 

Under whose aegis are you asserting that 2+2=5, hon?

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Response to x2 vancouverite (Reply #24)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 05:22 AM

25. Well, hon...

It is irrelevant how the Palestinians decide to define their state and sure as hell shouldn't rely on how the Israelis define theirs, which is what the other poster seems to be suggesting.

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Reply #25)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 05:30 AM

26. "...sure as hell shouldn't rely on how the Israelis define theirs..."

 

So, you're saying that Palestine should define itself on its own terms?

By gosh, we seem to be in agreement! Good night, ma'am!

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Response to x2 vancouverite (Reply #26)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 05:31 AM

27. Then you agree, the other poster's comments were "2+2=5".

Good to know.

I am male.

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Reply #27)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 06:00 AM

31. The only person in this thread talking "2+2=5" shit

 

is you! Guy!

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Response to x2 vancouverite (Reply #31)


Response to Behind the Aegis (Reply #32)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 06:25 AM

33. Who in this thread first stated that TWO plus TWO equals FIVE???

 

Am I talking too fast for you?

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Reply #25)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 10:23 AM

40. Israel was called a Jewish state in the UN resolution

that established the partition of the area.

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Peace%20Process/Guide%20to%20the%20Peace%20Process/UN%20General%20Assembly%20Resolution%20181

That is why it is called a Jewish state.

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Response to JDPriestly (Reply #40)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 04:23 PM

44. so will Palestine then be called the Arab state because that was what the UN references meant

it was to separate the two groups making claims at the time as all of them were Palestinians

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #44)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 04:35 PM

48. If they like. It would make sense. Even though it is inaccurate.

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Response to JDPriestly (Reply #48)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 05:34 PM

50. but calling a state where at least 25% of the population is not Jewish

the Jewish state is what the UN intended, I see lol

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #50)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 11:36 PM

57. It is fact

Israel is the Jewish State....after all...it is called 'Israel' for a reason.

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Response to King_David (Reply #57)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 11:45 PM

58. It is called Israel that's right n/t

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Response to King_David (Reply #57)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 01:33 AM

60. What will it be if demographics change?

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Reply #18)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 01:22 PM

42. I was refering to consistency from the author.

If the author is pointing out the majority religion of one state, why not the other?

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Reply #18)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 04:27 PM

45. +1,000

!

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Response to ZombieHorde (Reply #8)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 04:16 AM

15. well, Israelis self-identify themselves as "the Jewish State"

 

Last edited Thu Nov 29, 2012, 06:33 AM - Edit history (1)

sometimes as a precursor for emphasizing as "the only Jewish state" (and maybe with some variation of the addendum of "in the middle of a sea of hostile Arab savages"), somewhat in the same sense that Hindutva nationalists in India refer to Nepal as "the only Hindu state". There's a slight bit more concealed bitterness in that latter example, but it's still somewhat analogous.

Palestinians are not strictly Muslim (and the very specific phraseology of "an Islamic state" is quite different from just being a country with Muslims), something like 5-10% of the Palestinians are Christian--some with lineages dating back before the first wave of Crusader invasions (not to be confused with the present ones). Many of the leaders of the early Palestinian resistance factions and leftist movements are/were Christian.

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Response to ZombieHorde (Reply #8)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 05:53 AM

30. The term is not strange.

Israel was founded as a Jewish state in 1948 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel) after Palestinian Arabs rejected the United Nations Partition Plan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Partition_Plan_for_Palestine).

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Response to ZombieHorde (Reply #8)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 10:11 AM

37. Palestine is in part Islamic and in part Christian.

Used to be part Jewish. The Palestinians who were Jewish became Israelis.

Per Wikipedia (for what it is worth on this topic).

Palestinians are predominantly Muslims, the vast majority of whom are followers of the Sunni branch of Islam. Palestinian Christians represent a significant minority, followed by much smaller religious communities, including Druze and Samaritans. Palestinian Jews – considered Palestinian by the Palestinian National Charter adopted by the PLO which defined them as those "Jews who had normally resided in Palestine until the beginning of the Zionist invasion" – today identify as Israelis (with the exception of a very few individuals). Palestinian Jews almost universally abandoned any such identity after the establishment of Israel and their incorporation into the Israeli Jewish population, largely composed of Jewish immigrants from around the world.

Until the end of the 19th century, most Palestinian Muslim villagers in the countryside did not have local mosques. Cross-cultural syncretism between Christian and Islamic symbols and figures in religious practice was common. Popular feast days, like Thursday of the Dead, were celebrated by both Muslims and Christians and shared prophets and saints include Jonah, who is worshipped in Halhul as both a Biblical and Islamic prophet, and St. George, who is known in Arabic as el Khader. Villagers would pay tribute to local patron saints at a maqam – a domed single room often placed in the shadow of an ancient carob or oak tree. Saints, taboo by the standards of orthodox Islam, mediated between man and Allah, and shrines to saints and holy men dotted the Palestinian landscape. Ali Qleibo, a Palestinian anthropologist, states that this built evidence constitutes "an architectural testimony to Christian/Moslem Palestinian religious sensibility and its roots in ancient Semitic religions."

. . .

The British census of 1922 registered 752,048 inhabitants in Palestine, consisting of 660,641 Palestinian Arabs (Christian and Muslim Arabs), 83,790 Palestinian Jews, and 7,617 persons belonging to other groups. The corresponding percentage breakdown is 87% Christian and Muslim Arab and 11% Jewish. Bedouin were not counted in the census, but a 1930 British study estimated their number at 70,860.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_people

Israel includes Muslims and Jews but was created by the United Nations as a Jewish state. That was part of the language of the UN resolution 181 dated November 29, 1947.

The armed forces of the mandatory Power shall be progressively withdrawn from Palestine, the withdrawal to be completed as soon as possible but in any case not later than 1 August 1948.
The mandatory Power shall advise the Commission, as far in advance as possible, of its intention to terminate the mandate and to evacuate each area. The mandatory Power shall use its best endeavours to ensure that an area situated in the territory of the Jewish State, including a seaport and hinterland adequate to provide facilities for a substantial immigration, shall be evacuated at the earliest possible date and in any event not later than 1 February 1948.

Independent Arab and Jewish States and the Special International Regime for the City of Jerusalem, set forth in Part III of this Plan, shall come into existence in Palestine two months after the evacuation of the armed forces of the mandatory Power has been completed but in any case not later than 1 October 1948. The boundaries of the Arab State, the Jewish State, and the City of Jerusalem shall be as described in Parts II and III below.

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Peace%20Process/Guide%20to%20the%20Peace%20Process/UN%20General%20Assembly%20Resolution%20181

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Response to Poll_Blind (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 03:42 AM

11. K&R

The status quo has got to go
Proceed Forward.

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Response to Poll_Blind (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 03:52 AM

12. I'm all for it. They'll be able to legally recruit and arm a military.

Egypt will be thrilled.

I'm sure investment will pour in. And they'll make the Sinai bloom.

Any idea how they'll get to the West Bank?

Oh, and has the UN settled the question of Jerusalem?

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Response to Poll_Blind (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 04:55 AM

20. U.N. set for implicit recognition of Palestinian state, despite U.S., Israel threats

(Reuters) - The U.N. General Assembly is set to implicitly recognize a sovereign state of Palestine on Thursday despite threats by the United States and Israel to punish the Palestinian Authority by withholding much-needed funds for the West Bank government.

A Palestinian resolution that would change the Palestinian Authority's U.N. observer status from "entity" to "non-member state," like the Vatican, is expected to pass easily in the 193-nation U.N. General Assembly.

Israel, the United States and a handful of other members are planning to vote against what they see as a largely symbolic and counterproductive move by the Palestinians.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2012/11/29/uk-palestinians-statehood-idUKBRE8AS07N20121129

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Response to Poll_Blind (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 05:32 AM

28. It's embarrassing that the US is against this

When Israel is involved in a US decision or stance, all logic and compassion seem to fly out the window.

Why is it that we need to bow to their wishes when they are receiving the money each year from us?

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Response to Poll_Blind (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 10:11 AM

36. Susan Rice: Palestinian statehood a “mistaken calculation” and a “dangerous diversion.”

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politics/monitor_breakfast/2011/0912/Susan-Rice-Palestinian-statehood-plans-a-mistaken-calculation-VIDEO


Sept 12, 2012
Washington

The Obama administration is turning up its rhetoric in opposition to a Palestinian plan to seek a United Nations vote for statehood later this month. The US ambassador to the UN, Susan Rice called the move a “mistaken calculation” and a “dangerous diversion”

Susan Rice, the US' Ambassador to the United Nations, believes "the absolute only way" to achieve a Palestinian state is direct negotiations between Palestinians and Israelis. The Palestinian proposal for statehood before the UN represents "a dangerous diversion on the path toward a negotiated settlement."

Until now, the administration has declared the US would veto a vote on Palestinian statehood in the Security Council and has suggested any vote in the UN General Assembly would be largely symbolic. Admittance of a full-fledged member-state at the UN requires an affirmative Security Council vote.

But Ambassador Rice took a considerably tougher stance on the looming Palestinian action Monday, insisting that recognition of a Palestinian state in the 193-member General Assembly would actually work against the Palestinians’ own interests. Speaking at a Monitor breakfast with Washington reporters, Rice said the “observer-state status” the General Assembly is empowered to grant still confers certain rights associated with a state.


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Response to leveymg (Reply #36)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 11:06 AM

41. yuck.

I really dont understand the opposition. Nice to know the US is so concerned with "the Palestinians' own interests" though.

edit: punctuation

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Response to leveymg (Reply #36)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 01:32 AM

59. The US' position has always been firmly against any Palestinian state

We mouth the "two state" rhetoric, but nothing we have ever done has ever in any way supported the creation of a viable Palestinian state. The closest we've come is supporting what amounts to a "Pallytown," letting Ramallah and Jericho be quaint ethnic enclaves within a territory that is completely controlled by Israel, without any of the rights of actually being Israel.

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Response to Poll_Blind (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 04:33 PM

47. The upgraded status will also allow them to join the ICC, according to AJE. nt

 

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Response to Poll_Blind (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 04:47 PM

49. Caught this beautiful picture on Haaretz just now:



Caption read:
A Hassidic Jew holds a Palestinian flag and a sign during a rally supporting the Palestinian U.N. bid for observer state status, in the West bank city of Ramallah today.


PB

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Response to Poll_Blind (Reply #49)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 05:38 PM

52. A step in the right direction?

Let's hope so...

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