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Mon Nov 26, 2012, 09:49 AM

Breaking: Supreme Court Orders New Look at Health Care Challenge

Source: Associated Press

Court Orders New Look at Health Care Challenge

By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
Published: November 26, 2012 at 9:39 AM ET

WASHINGTON (AP) The Supreme Court has revived a Christian college's challenge to President Barack Obama's healthcare overhaul, with the acquiescence of the Obama administration.

The court on Monday ordered the federal appeals court in Richmond, Va., to consider the claim by Liberty University in Lynchburg, Va., that Obama's health care law violates the school's religious freedoms.

A federal district judge rejected Liberty's claims, and the 4th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals ruled that the lawsuit was premature and never dealt with the substance of the school's arguments. The Supreme Court upheld the health care law in June.

The justices used lawsuits filed by 26 states and the National Federation of Independent Business to uphold the health care law by a 5-4 vote, then rejected all other pending appeals, including Liberty's.

Read more: http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2012/11/26/us/politics/ap-us-supreme-court-health-care.html?smid=tw-share

31 replies, 6543 views

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Arrow 31 replies Author Time Post
Reply Breaking: Supreme Court Orders New Look at Health Care Challenge (Original post)
Hissyspit Nov 2012 OP
highplainsdem Nov 2012 #1
kelliekat44 Nov 2012 #25
Liberalynn Nov 2012 #29
heaven05 Nov 2012 #2
blackspade Nov 2012 #3
kardonb Nov 2012 #5
randome Nov 2012 #12
blackspade Nov 2012 #13
loyalkydem Nov 2012 #4
yardwork Nov 2012 #6
JoePhilly Nov 2012 #7
24601 Nov 2012 #22
JoePhilly Nov 2012 #23
EC Nov 2012 #8
byeya Nov 2012 #9
iandhr Nov 2012 #10
byeya Nov 2012 #27
happyslug Nov 2012 #31
iandhr Nov 2012 #11
former9thward Nov 2012 #14
elleng Nov 2012 #17
elleng Nov 2012 #16
L0oniX Nov 2012 #15
Kingofalldems Nov 2012 #18
happyslug Nov 2012 #30
UpInArms Nov 2012 #19
olegramps Nov 2012 #20
AsahinaKimi Nov 2012 #21
davidpdx Nov 2012 #24
no_hypocrisy Nov 2012 #26
happyslug Nov 2012 #28

Response to Hissyspit (Original post)

Mon Nov 26, 2012, 10:00 AM

1. Link to AP / NY Times story - it's the Liberty University lawsuit:

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2012/11/26/us/politics/ap-us-supreme-court-health-care.html

WASHINGTON (AP) The Supreme Court has revived a Christian college's challenge to President Barack Obama's healthcare overhaul, with the acquiescence of the Obama administration.

The court on Monday ordered the federal appeals court in Richmond, Va., to consider the claim by Liberty University in Lynchburg, Va., that Obama's health care law violates the school's religious freedoms.

A federal district judge rejected Liberty's claims, and the 4th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals ruled that the lawsuit was premature and never dealt with the substance of the school's arguments. The Supreme Court upheld the health care law in June.

The justices used lawsuits filed by 26 states and the National Federation of Independent Business to uphold the health care law by a 5-4 vote, then rejected all other pending appeals, including Liberty's.

-snip-

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Response to highplainsdem (Reply #1)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 09:23 AM

25. And while they are at it, re-examine the tax-exempt status they claim for their "religious" activity

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Response to kelliekat44 (Reply #25)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 05:01 PM

29. +1

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Response to Hissyspit (Original post)

Mon Nov 26, 2012, 10:21 AM

2. racist 'christian' college

proof? blacks and whites for many years all the way into the 21st century, could not date. bob jones university is another one. I know of those two. I wonder how many others 'bible' colleges were part of this racist learning circle....? religious freedom? to be racist for generations? yeah sure. that's amerikkkan values at work. their mottos? christ is lord!!!!!myass.

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Response to Hissyspit (Original post)

Mon Nov 26, 2012, 10:24 AM

3. WTH?

They just revived for the hell of it?
Are they bored?

How about they 'revive' Citizens United?

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Response to blackspade (Reply #3)

Mon Nov 26, 2012, 10:44 AM

5. why

 

they are not bored . just intolerant , religious nut cases .

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Response to blackspade (Reply #3)

Mon Nov 26, 2012, 12:21 PM

12. "...with the acquiescence of the Obama administration."

If they're not worried, neither am I.

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Response to randome (Reply #12)

Mon Nov 26, 2012, 12:28 PM

13. Your faith is laudable

but I prefer the actual information behind the decision.

My main point was that this bit of 'reporting' is terrible.

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Response to Hissyspit (Original post)

Mon Nov 26, 2012, 10:39 AM

4. I agree

we need to get rid of these conservative justices.

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Response to Hissyspit (Original post)

Mon Nov 26, 2012, 10:48 AM

6. Don't they have something else to do? They're supposed to be looking at Prop 8.

They've postponed that twice now, and they're casting around for old cases that were already ruled on?

???

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Response to Hissyspit (Original post)

Mon Nov 26, 2012, 10:51 AM

7. Anyone who is dumb enough to work or attend Liberty should get no HC coverage.

Problem solved.

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Response to JoePhilly (Reply #7)


Response to 24601 (Reply #22)

Mon Nov 26, 2012, 06:07 PM

23. Bwahahahahaha ... yea, that's what I said!!!!

Except, I said no such thing.

Did I say people with a low IQ (an actual test) should get no Health care .... no.

Did I say that the mentally handicapped should get no health care ... no.

What I said is that if you are STUPID enough to work or attend Liberty U ... you should get none of the benefits of Obamacare, and if that means you get NO health care ... fine.

You seem to think you can expand on what I said to include those I did not mention. And THAT is RW troll behavior 101.

You've made it to about 2,000 posts ... and I'm at over 14,000 posts here on DU.

If I am the RW troll, clearly, I'm very good at it.

Dope.

On edit: btw ... If you think I am a RW troll, you should alert on me.

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Response to Hissyspit (Original post)

Mon Nov 26, 2012, 11:12 AM

8. Okay, so the court says

no the Affordable Care Law does not intrude on the religious rights of the school, what do they do then? Keep complaining?

That's why Pres. Obama's admin says go ahead, I'm sure the law is worded to be Constitutional and not interfere with the school's religious rights.

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Response to Hissyspit (Original post)

Mon Nov 26, 2012, 11:21 AM

9. How do we increase the size of the Supreme Court to 11 justices? We need to dilute the

 

influence of the Filthy Five

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Response to byeya (Reply #9)

Mon Nov 26, 2012, 11:57 AM

10. Its has been tried FDR tried to pack the court.

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Response to iandhr (Reply #10)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 11:39 AM

27. I think FDR threatened to pack the court but never offered legislation or a nominee(s)

 

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Response to byeya (Reply #27)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 05:39 PM

31. No, the law was proposed, but failed in the Senate and the House

In the house, it failed due to FDR being viewed as being arrogant at proposing it WITHOUT talking to the Democratic House Leadership, and in the Senate, the combination of Republicans and Southern Democrats killed the bill

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judicial_Procedures_Reform_Bill_of_1937

While it was reported a Justice switched after it was proposed, that Justice had decided to switch well before the law was proposed. The reason was simple, he had come to the conclusion that radical change was needed and what he had been fighting for had clearly failed to get the economy going, and thus that left the New Deal as the only thing on the Table to support.

Anyway, with the Switch, the whole reason for the Court Packing bill died, and it gave Democrats in the House and Senate to show they independence of FDR without doing any real harm to the Country or the Party. Thus it was a defeat for FDR, but a Defeat he could afford.

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Response to Hissyspit (Original post)

Mon Nov 26, 2012, 12:02 PM

11. I think we need to chill...

... and read between the lines

From the article:
"A federal district judge rejected Liberty's claims, and the 4th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals ruled that the lawsuit was premature and never dealt with the substance of the school's arguments. The Supreme Court upheld the health care law in June."


"The school made a new filing with the court over the summer to argue that its claims should be fully evaluated in light of the high court decision. The administration said it did not oppose Liberty's request."

If the administration is not objecting then the review is going to proceed.

The ACA has already been upheld. I do not think that they would overturn the law now.

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Response to iandhr (Reply #11)

Mon Nov 26, 2012, 01:12 PM

14. The overall law is not in question.

But the Supreme Court can rule sections of it to be invalid. There is a reason they decided to take this case. I don't know the reason but rest assured there was a reason.

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Response to former9thward (Reply #14)

Mon Nov 26, 2012, 01:50 PM

17. 'The court on Monday ordered the federal appeals court in Richmond, VA,

to consider the claim by Liberty University in Lynchburg, Va., that Obama's health care law violates the school's religious freedoms. . .

The justices used lawsuits filed by 26 states and the National Federation of Independent Business to uphold the health care law by a 5-4 vote, then rejected all other pending appeals, including Liberty's.'




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Response to iandhr (Reply #11)

Mon Nov 26, 2012, 01:47 PM

16. Right, essentially means, ''Now that we, Supremes, decided ACA case,

this particular case is 'ripe' for review by the lower court in light of our earlier decision.''

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Response to Hissyspit (Original post)

Mon Nov 26, 2012, 01:31 PM

15. We're Christains. We don't believe in healing people!

Stupid fucks!

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Response to Hissyspit (Original post)

Mon Nov 26, 2012, 02:44 PM

18. Any lawyers here? Is there any chance this could be

a back door way to scuttle Obamacare?

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Response to Kingofalldems (Reply #18)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 05:16 PM

30. No, this is a first amendment issue case, the issue is the EXTENT of Obama-care

Remember, the Supreme Court in a 5-4 decision upheld Obama-care, Obama will be president for another four years, the ages of the Supreme Court Justices are as follows:

The eldest is Ginsberg born in 1933
Scalia is second born in 1936
Kennedy was also born in 1936
Breyer is forth born in 1938
Then Thomas, the first Baby boomer on the court, born in 1948
Alito is next born in 1950
Sotomayer is next born in 1954
The Chief Justice is the second youngest man on the Court, born in 1955
Youngest is Kagan, born in 1960

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Justices_of_the_Supreme_Court_of_the_United_States

The Classic definition of a baby-boomer is anyone born between 1947 and 1964 (1965 saw a huge DROP in births, thus 1964 is considered the end of the baby boom, which peaked in 1957 and started a slow decline till 1964). Thus we have four Judges born during the Great Depression, but came of age during or after WWII and five Judges born during the post war boom, but came of age during and after Vietnam.

To undo Obama-care would require Obama to replace Roberts, Kagan, Sotomayer, Breyer or Ginsburg with a Conservative Justice, an unlikely event, I See Ginsberg retiring, but she may hold out till Scalia or Kennedy retires or dies in office, so Obama can pull what Reagan did with Scalia and Rehnquist. When Chief Justice Burger retired, Reagan appointed Rehnquist (who was already on the Court) to be Chief Justice, and appointed Scalia to be the ninth Justice. The Senate's questions was all aimed at Rehnquist so Scalia was barely discussed (almost a sneak nomination). If Ginsberg waits for Scalia or Kennedy to retire, she could retire at the same time and Obama can appoint two new justices, one to take the heat of the Nomination process, the other to fly in almost untouched. Lets see what Ginsberg does but given the above ages, it would require Obama to want to kill his own program for Obama-care to die now.

On the other hand, the June decision just ruled that Obama-care is a Tax and as such constitutional. The Courts have long held that a general law that affects a religion does NOT violate the First Amendment if the reason the law was passed was NOT an attack on that religion (The Peyote cases, just because Native Americans use Peyote in their religious ceremonies did not make any law banning the use of Peyote a violation of the First Amendment if the law is a general law not aimed at the religious group).

On the other hand, the Court has ruled it is a Violation of the First Amendment if a law, even a general law, affects a religion or other group with strong beliefs.

Remember the First Amendment has TWO religious protections, the first is that Congress will NOT establish a Religion, the Second is the one that comes into play, that Congress (or the states) can NOT make a law as to "prohibiting the free exercise {of Religion}"

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.


http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/bill_of_rights.html

Even a "General Law" can be aimed at the religious practices of a religious minority, even while the law, on its face, sounds like it is religiously neutral. The Classic situation is Communist party affiliation. it took a while, but the court did finally rule that a law that required anyone who belong to an organization that "advocated the overthrow of the Government" to register with the Government violated the first amendment, in that while it was neutral on its face, the law was clearly aimed at members of the Communist party and thus violated the First Amendment. The rationale was simple, the "protected groups" in the First are interconnected, "Freedom to Assemble", "Freedom of Speech or of the press" are relate to being able to exercise one beliefs, be it a belief in God or or Superiority of Communism. Thus to require people who believed in one thing to register with the Government, not only affected the right to assemble peacefully, but also the prohibition against an law restricting the exercise of religion.

Now, Obama-care requires employers to have health insurance for their employees and furthermore made what is covered under those insurance programs clear. Most large employers (100 plus employees) tend to be self insured as to heath insurance. A insurance carrier may process the health insurance claims, but the claims are paid by the employer, the insurance company just process the claims. Such large employers find it is just cheaper to do it that way (also ends any dispute between Workmen's Comp and Health Insurance as who shall pay, in large employers it tends to be the same carrier, the employer).

The June case did NOT consider the requirement of Health Insurance on a group that for religious reasons rejects the insurance. In this case, the issue as to Obama-care itself has been resolved, but what about Abortion, where there is a sizable minority in the US that oppose PAYING for abortion on religious grounds, even as part of a general insurance requirement.

In simple terms, can Liberty University refuse to pay for abortions, when payment for such medical care is required under Obama-care of all Health Care providers, when Liberty University has a clear and well understood religious objection to any and all abortions? That issue was NOT addressed by the Supreme Court, and the Court of Appeals did not address it when they heard the case, thus the remand to the Court of Appeals to rule on that issue.

I see at least four Justices (including one Catholic, Sotomayer) to hold that the requirement for Abortion in Obama-care is a General Rule NOT aimed at any religious Group (Breyer, Kagan and Ginsberg are all Jewish extraction but will support that this is a General Law NOT a law aimed at people who oppose abortion).

On the other hand, I do see the remaining Catholics, Scalia, Alito, Kennedy and Roberts supporting Liberty University right to religious freedom (and that would be true if the Pope came out for Abortion, it is less a religious objection, then an objection to any requirement).

That leaves Thomas, who had been a member of the Catholic Church in his youth, but dropped out due to the Catholics being to far to the left for him. Thus I see a 5-4 religious exemption for religious groups to the overall requirement to provide care. Thus I see an exemption, the issue is going to be how narrow is the exemption. I see the Court requiring Obama-care, except for Abortion, to remain, this by the same 5-4 vote that upheld Obama-care. On the other hand, I can foresee Roberts switching sides and ruling if a religious group has a religious objection, it can opt out of providing that medical procedure.

The real question is how wide will the court make its ruling? Will it be wide enough for anyone to demand an exemption to even having to provide health care on religious grounds, or will it be so narrow that it only applies to self insured employers who pay for the medical services themselves? Even if the actual payment is handle through a third party?

I do NOT see the court reversing Obama-care, Robert is what I call a "Corporatist" someone who wants to protect business and wall street more then anything else. Right now, Wall Street and Corporate American want everyone to have health insurance not for the health of Americans, but they see profit it such a requirement. For this reason Roberts switch sides as to Obama-care and for this reason I see him opting for a narrow exemption as to religious based groups that clearly objects to Abortion AND are self insured and otherwise meets the requirement of Obama-care. I do NOT see him going further, for to go further is to undermined what health insurance Wall Streets wants to offer (that includes abortions for that is cheaper then paying for a birth). Self Insured companies will be able to restrict its coverage to exclude abortions, but people who buy insurance will have to buy what is offered, which will include abortions.

I see the court ruling that you MAY buy Insurance that excludes Abortion, if you can find it, but if none is offered, the employer (and the individual if self insured) must still buy health insurance that includes abortion as a covered medical treatment. The exemption will end up only applying to self insured employers, which tends to be self-insured. That is the extend I see the court going on this issue, a very narrow exemption to the general requirement to have the level of health insurance required by Obama-care.

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Response to Hissyspit (Original post)

Mon Nov 26, 2012, 04:20 PM

19. degrees handed out by Liberty University violate my

intelligence.

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Response to Hissyspit (Original post)

Mon Nov 26, 2012, 04:50 PM

20. The entire Constitution is affront to Liberty University's religion:

Their concept of religious liberty is the right to hate Blacks, Latinos, homosexuals and anybody who doesn't believe the earth is flat, was created 6000 years ago and evolution is an atheist doctrine. Their concept of religious freedom to their freedom to impose their nitwit beliefs on the entirety of society and kick them out of the country if the don't. A more appropriate name for their school who be KKK College of Crackpots.

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Response to Hissyspit (Original post)

Mon Nov 26, 2012, 05:43 PM

21. HAVING health care is Against their religion?

How pathetic can they get. What morons they are! They should not call it a College... they should call it an institution of lower learning.

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Response to Hissyspit (Original post)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 09:14 AM

24. I have heard of Liberty and have a few friends doing their doctoral work there

I hope they lose this round with the same score 5-4 with Robert joining the liberals.

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Response to Hissyspit (Original post)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 09:29 AM

26. Liberty University is Jerry Falwell's baby.

This lawsuit figures . . . . .

BTW, I don't see how LU can make a valid claim to Obamacare violating its First Amendment rights to free exercise of religion any more than making an argument that withholding and paying FICA and/or Social Security would be the same kind of violation.

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Response to Hissyspit (Original post)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 03:56 PM

28. Actual Ruling from the Court

11-438 LIBERTY UNIVERSITY, ET AL. V. GEITHNER, SEC. OF TREASURY
The petition for rehearing is granted. The order entered June 29, 2012, denying the petition for a writ of certiorari is vacated. The petition for a writ of certiorari is granted. The judgment is vacated, and the case is remanded to the United States Court of Appeals for the Fourth Circuit for further consideration in light of National Federation of Independent Business v. Sebelius, 567 U.S. ___ (2012).



http://www.supremecourt.gov/orders/courtorders/112612zor_f204.pdf

Yes, the above is ALL that the Supreme Court said about this case, three sentences. It looks like the Supreme Court wants the Court of Appeals to consider the June 2012 decision of National Federation of Independent Business v. Sebelius, 567 U.S. ___ (2012).

Here is National Federation of Independent Business v. Sebelius, 567 U.S. ___ (2012), if you want to read it:
http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/11pdf/11-393c3a2.pdf

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