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Tue Nov 20, 2012, 10:43 AM

Grandmother, 3 grandchildren found shot, killed in North Dakota

Source: Fox News

NEW TOWN, N.D. – A northwestern North Dakota home teemed with FBI investigators Monday as they tried to piece together evidence in the grisly weekend shooting deaths of a woman and three of her grandchildren.

In a nearby community, a man described only as a "person of interest" in the killings apparently killed himself just hours after their deaths.

Martha Johnson, 64, and three of her grandchildren -- Benjamin Schuster, 13, Julia Schuster, 10 and Luke Schuster, 6 -- were gunned down in the home Sunday afternoon, Mountrail County Sheriff Ken Halvorson said. Johnson's husband was out hunting. A fourth grandchild, a 12-year-old boy, was in the home but wasn't hurt and called 911, the sheriff said.
....

Both Halvorson and the FBI said they didn't think there was any danger to the public, but New Town, a community of fewer than 2,000 residents, remained on edge Monday. Slayings are relatively rare in North Dakota, which is home to fewer than 700,000 people. FBI statistics show that in 2011, only 24 murders and non-negligent manslaughters occurred.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/11/20/grandmother-3-grandchildren-found-shot-killed-in-north-dakota/



More:

Deaths of four people in New Town, fifth death in Parshall being investigated
http://www.minotdailynews.com/page/content.detail/id/570938/Deaths-of-four-people-in-New-Town--fifth-death-in-Parshall-being-investigated.html?nav=5010

New Town mourns victims
http://www.minotdailynews.com/page/content.detail/id/570966/New-Town-mourns-victims.html?nav=5010

‘Our world, our lives, have been changed’
November 20, 2012
By FLINT McCOLGAN - Staff Writer (fmccolgan@minotdailynews.com) , Minot Daily News

....
Some community members, such as Glenda Baker Embry, who is the Public Information Officer for the Three Affiliated Tribes, remembered more peaceful times in New Town.

"I remember when you could walk into the grocery store and you would know everyone," said Embry, "a time when you didn't even think about locking your car, you know?"

"We know there have been changes," she said. "Drugs are here and our young people are so impressionable and trying all these things."

Although no links to drugs or gangs have been confirmed by law enforcement regarding the case, concerns for the changes and for New Town's youth were palpable.


http://www.thedickinsonpress.com/event/group/group/News/

Victim of shooting was prominent New Town community member
http://www.thedickinsonpress.com/event/article/id/63182/group/News/

Murders on reservation: Man commits suicide while questioned in deaths of grandma and 3 children
http://www.thedickinsonpress.com/event/article/id/63183/group/News/

Recently, when I hear of crime in North Dakota, I immediately suspect that it resulted from the disruption in life caused by the activity associated with the Bakken shale formation. That does not appear to be a factor here, at least so far. Back in the summer of 1993, I was in Bismarck on business. I recall seeing a huge headline in the newspaper, "Man with knife robs store." That, in Mandan, ND, amounted to a major crime incident.

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Reply Grandmother, 3 grandchildren found shot, killed in North Dakota (Original post)
mahatmakanejeeves Nov 2012 OP
Brickbat Nov 2012 #1
Loudly Nov 2012 #2
slackmaster Nov 2012 #3
Loudly Nov 2012 #4
slackmaster Nov 2012 #5
Loudly Nov 2012 #8
slackmaster Nov 2012 #10
Loudly Nov 2012 #14
slackmaster Nov 2012 #15
glacierbay Nov 2012 #16
defacto7 Nov 2012 #27
glacierbay Nov 2012 #31
AlbertCat Nov 2012 #41
glacierbay Nov 2012 #43
defacto7 Nov 2012 #75
dmallind Nov 2012 #47
samsingh Nov 2012 #32
glacierbay Nov 2012 #38
glacierbay Nov 2012 #40
samsingh Nov 2012 #63
AldoLeopold Nov 2012 #21
samsingh Nov 2012 #34
glacierbay Nov 2012 #39
AldoLeopold Nov 2012 #50
samsingh Nov 2012 #62
PavePusher Nov 2012 #69
AldoLeopold Nov 2012 #72
PavePusher Nov 2012 #74
Atypical Liberal Nov 2012 #35
AldoLeopold Nov 2012 #46
Atypical Liberal Nov 2012 #59
AldoLeopold Nov 2012 #61
Atypical Liberal Nov 2012 #67
PavePusher Nov 2012 #70
glacierbay Nov 2012 #37
AldoLeopold Nov 2012 #49
glacierbay Nov 2012 #51
AlbertCat Nov 2012 #42
AldoLeopold Nov 2012 #48
PavePusher Nov 2012 #68
AldoLeopold Nov 2012 #73
glacierbay Nov 2012 #6
Loudly Nov 2012 #9
glacierbay Nov 2012 #12
Atypical Liberal Nov 2012 #33
samsingh Nov 2012 #36
AldoLeopold Nov 2012 #52
glacierbay Nov 2012 #55
AldoLeopold Nov 2012 #57
glacierbay Nov 2012 #58
samsingh Nov 2012 #65
samsingh Nov 2012 #64
Atypical Liberal Nov 2012 #60
AldoLeopold Nov 2012 #54
Odin2005 Nov 2012 #28
Odin2005 Nov 2012 #30
magical thyme Nov 2012 #66
slackmaster Nov 2012 #7
Comrade Grumpy Nov 2012 #11
slackmaster Nov 2012 #13
geomon666 Nov 2012 #17
glacierbay Nov 2012 #19
slackmaster Nov 2012 #20
geomon666 Nov 2012 #22
glacierbay Nov 2012 #23
geomon666 Nov 2012 #24
Remmah2 Nov 2012 #25
PavePusher Nov 2012 #71
Comrade Grumpy Nov 2012 #44
glacierbay Nov 2012 #45
SoapBox Nov 2012 #18
Remmah2 Nov 2012 #26
Odin2005 Nov 2012 #29
cntrfthrs Nov 2012 #53
glacierbay Nov 2012 #56
nomorenomore08 Nov 2012 #76
apocalypsehow Nov 2012 #77
glacierbay Nov 2012 #80
slackmaster Nov 2012 #81
dflprincess Nov 2012 #78
mahatmakanejeeves Nov 2012 #79

Response to mahatmakanejeeves (Original post)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 10:49 AM

1. It may be a factor. New Town is on the reservation, and the reservation has been hit hard by the

influx of people, money and change. The people who were killed were not enrolled members of the tribe; the man who committed suicide was.

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Response to mahatmakanejeeves (Original post)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 11:19 AM

2. Guns and ammunition in the hands of the public is a stupendously bad idea.

 

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Response to Loudly (Reply #2)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 11:20 AM

3. Yes, only government employees should have guns and ammunition

 

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #3)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 11:30 AM

4. Planning to go to war with your government?

 

Your only constitutional argument was rendered obsolete at Appomattox.

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Response to Loudly (Reply #4)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 11:32 AM

5. Planning to protect myself because I know I can't count on government to do it for me

 

You know, the security of the free state which includes the security of every individual in the free state.

Also collecting guns is fun.

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #5)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 11:35 AM

8. Grandma and three grandchildren were exceedingly insecure.

 

Thanks primarily to your meritless viewpoint.

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Response to Loudly (Reply #8)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 11:36 AM

10. They were insecure because a crazed lunatic decided to kill them for some weird reason

 

Would you feel better if he had hacked them to death with an axe?

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #10)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 11:39 AM

14. He chose a gun for its convenience.

 

Just point and pull the trigger.

No gun, no multiple homicide.

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Response to Loudly (Reply #14)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 11:40 AM

15. You're making DU suck.

 

Cut it out.

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Response to Loudly (Reply #14)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 11:45 AM

16. No gun, no multiple homicide?

 

Sure you want to stick to that?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osaka_school_massacre

At 10:15 that morning, 37-year-old former janitor Mamoru Takuma entered the school armed with a kitchen knife and began stabbing numerous school children and teachers. He killed eight children, mostly between the ages of seven and eight, and seriously wounded thirteen other children and two teachers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akihabara_massacre

The Akihabara massacre (秋葉原通り魔事件 Akihabara Tōrima Jiken?, lit. "Akihabara random attacker incident") was an incident of mass murder that took place on Sunday, June 8, 2008, in the Akihabara shopping quarter for electronics, video games and comics in Sotokanda, Chiyoda, Tokyo, Japan.

At 12:33 p.m. JST, a man hit a crowd with a truck, eventually killing three people and injuring two; he then stabbed at least 12 people using a dagger (initially reported as a survival knife), killing four people and injuring eight.

Tokyo Metropolitan Police Department arrested Tomohiro Katō (加藤 智大 Katō Tomohiro?), 25, on suspicion of attempted murder. The suspect, dressed then in a black T-shirt with a jacket and off-white trousers, was a resident of Susono, Shizuoka. He was held at the Manseibashi Police Station. Two days later on June 10, he was sent to the Tokyo District Public Prosecutor's Office. He was later re-arrested by the police on June 20 on suspicion of murder. During the trial, prosecutors sought the death penalty, and the Tokyo District Court agreed, sentencing Kato to death.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Chinese_school_attacks

School attacks in China (2010–2011)

A series of uncoordinated mass stabbings, hammer attacks, and cleaver attacks in the People's Republic of China began in March 2010. The spate of attacks left at least 21 dead and some 90 injured. Analysts have blamed mental health problems caused by rapid social change for the rise in these kind of mass murder and murder-suicide incidents.

Contents
1 March 2010
2 April 2010
3 May 2010
4 August 2010
5 August 2011
6 September 2011
7 Causes
8 Reaction and response
9 See also
10 References
11 External links


March 2010

Main article: Nanping school massacre

On March 23, 2010, Zheng Minsheng 41, murdered eight children with a knife in an elementary school in Nanping, Fujian province; The attack was widely reported in Chinese media , sparking fears of copycat crimes. Following a quick trial, Zheng Minsheng was executed about one month later on April 28.

April 2010

Just a few hours after the execution of Zheng Minsheng in neighboring Fujian Province, in Leizhou, Guangdong another knife-wielding man named Chen Kangbing, 33 at Hongfu Primary School wounded 16 students and a teacher. Chen Kangbing had been a teacher at a different primary school in Leizhou; he was sentenced to death by a court in Zhanjiang in June. On April 29 in Taixing, Jiangsu, 47-year-old Xu Yuyuan went to Zhongxin Kindergarten and stabbed 28 students, two teachers and one security guard; most of the Taixing students were 4 years old. On April 30, Wang Yonglai used a hammer to cause head injury to preschool children in Weifang, Shandong, then used gasoline to commit suicide by self-immolation.

May 2010

An attacker named Wu Huanming , 48, killed seven children and two adults and injured 11 other persons with a cleaver at a kindergarten in Hanzhong, Shaanxi on May 12, 2010; early reports were removed from the internet in China, for fear that mass coverage of such violence can provoke copycat attacks. The attacker later committed suicide at his house; he was the landlord of the school, Shengshui Temple private kindergarten, and had been involved in an ongoing dispute with the school administrator about when the school would move out of the building.

On May 18, 2010 at Hainan Institute of Science and Technology, a vocational college in Haikou, Hainan, more than 10 men charged into a dormitory wielding knives around 2:30 am; after attacking the security guard and disabling security cameras, 9 students were injured, 1 seriously. The local men attacked the dorm in an act of revenge and retaliation against college students following conflict the previous day at an off-campus food stall in which 4 students were injured, for a total of 13.

August 2010

On 4 August 2010, 26-year-old Fang Jiantang slashed more than 20 children and staff with a 60 cm knife, killing 3 children and 1 teacher, at a kindergarten in Zibo, Shandong province. Of the injured, 3 other children and 4 teachers were taken to the hospital. After being caught Fang confessed to the crime; his motive is not yet known.

August 2011

Eight children, all aged four or five, were hurt in Minhang District, Shanghai when an employee at a child-care centre for migrant workers slashed them with a box-cutter.

September 2011

In September 2011, a young girl and three adults taking their children to nursery school were killed in Gongyi, Henan by 30-year-old Wang Hongbin with an axe. Another child and an adult were seriously wounded but survived. The suspect is a local farmer who is suspected of being mentally ill.

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Response to glacierbay (Reply #16)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 01:06 PM

27. You have noticed

these are all Asian murders. In Asian countries, using a knife for killing is a cultural thing. They wouldn't have used a gun, even if they had one.

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Response to defacto7 (Reply #27)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 01:11 PM

31. True

 

my point is that you don't need a gun to commit mass murder like Loudly seemed to say.
Also in China, anything over a pellet gun is illegal and to even own a .177 cal. pellet gun, you have to have a permit from the govt.

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Response to glacierbay (Reply #31)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 01:54 PM

41. you don't need a gun to commit mass murder

But it sure helps!

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Response to AlbertCat (Reply #41)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 01:58 PM

43. No denying that.

 

Like I said, I was just proving Loudly wrong on his statement of no gun, no mass murder.

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Response to glacierbay (Reply #31)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 08:08 PM

75. But you may have missed MY point...

In Western culture, it's more likely you would not commit mass murder with a knife because that's more abhorrent in general to Westerners. In Asian cultures, it's less likely you would use a gun for mass murder because it's more cowardly in their culture. Less guns in Asian culture means little. Less guns in Western cultures means more.

I suppose if you were to take that to an extreme, you might say that knives and other sharp objects should be controlled in Asian cultures... but I won't go there. I'm just looking for some logic in the argument. So far, the list of mass murder in Asian countries by civilians with knives don't apply in this case.

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Response to defacto7 (Reply #27)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 02:13 PM

47. Happy Land? Bath?

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Response to Loudly (Reply #8)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 01:13 PM

32. what's Appomattox?

also, notice the complete lack of ideas or sympathy when a gun tragedy occurs? Completely irresponsible.

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Response to samsingh (Reply #32)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 01:28 PM

40. Seriously?

 

You don't know what Appomattox is? You don't know that's where General Lee surrendered to General Grant on 4/9/1865?

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Response to glacierbay (Reply #40)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 04:01 PM

63. i thought this was referring to something more recent that i may have missed.

love talking about stuff over 150 years old.

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #5)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 12:16 PM

21. We're guaranteed the right to bear arms

So until that's changed I think simply some regulation is in order.

That beings said, this isn't 1781. It was all fine and good to defend your home with a musket, but good luck against an AH-64 Apache or a horde of satellite controlled drones with your deer rifle. That old argument that we'll defend our freedoms by bearing arms just doesn't really hold water with me.

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Response to AldoLeopold (Reply #21)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 01:14 PM

34. you're clearly intelligent

a Democracy protects itself first at the ballot box. Failing that, i don' think armed civilians are a match for an army and attack helicoptors (coupled with tanks).

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Response to samsingh (Reply #34)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 01:23 PM

39. And what makes you think that this army will fire on american citizens?

 

Any proof of that?

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Response to glacierbay (Reply #39)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 02:20 PM

50. If the citizens are armed

I would think there would be a high possibility.

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Response to glacierbay (Reply #39)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 03:59 PM

62. we're clearly not on the same page.

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Response to samsingh (Reply #34)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 04:50 PM

69. Libya and Syria would beg to disagree.

 

A few other nations here and there as well.

Afghanistan fairly springs to mind....

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Response to PavePusher (Reply #69)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 06:17 PM

72. Libya and Syria

Have/had 4th rate armies - absolutely not comparable to our own. If we unleashed our full might on Afghanistan they would all die.

Baron Munchausen: What's this?
Vulcan: Oh, this is our prototype. RX, uh, Intercontinental, radar-sneaky, multi-warheaded nuclear missile.
Baron Munchausen: Ah! What does it do?
Vulcan: Do? Kills the enemy.
Baron Munchausen: All the enemy?
Vulcan: Aye, all of them. All their wives, and all their children, and all their sheep, and all their cattle, and all their cats and dogs. All of them. All of them gone for good.
Sally: That's horrible.
Vulcan: Ahh. Well, you see, the advantage is you don't have to see one single one of them die. You just sit comfortably thousands of miles away from the battlefield and simply press the button.
Berthold: Well, where's the fun in that?

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Response to AldoLeopold (Reply #72)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 07:33 PM

74. Well, I've already pointed you in the right research direction in post #68...

 

you might want to check #70 as well.

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Response to AldoLeopold (Reply #21)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 01:16 PM

35. It doesn't matter.

 

That old argument that we'll defend our freedoms by bearing arms just doesn't really hold water with me.

It doesn't matter how much water it holds for you. It is the law.

Whether the law is feasible or not, the law still provides that the people have the right to keep and bear military-grade small arms appropriate for infantry use so that they can serve as soldiers in an emergency.

It is the law.

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Response to Atypical Liberal (Reply #35)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 02:13 PM

46. I agree

It is the law of the land and should be upheld. Certainly wasn't arguing otherwise.

In your scenario where we're serving as soldiers in an emergency - wouldn't that assume our own army has been defeated, otherwise seriously engaged, or pushed back to such a degree that whatever weaponry they had would mow a militia down? Witness what our firepower in Iraq and Afghanistan and further assume that whatever enemy was attacking us wouldn't have the same kind of restraint our own military has in foreign ventures. I don't think infantry armed with small arms would do much good. I could be wrong, though.

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Response to AldoLeopold (Reply #46)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 02:58 PM

59. Foreign and domestic.

 

In your scenario where we're serving as soldiers in an emergency - wouldn't that assume our own army has been defeated, otherwise seriously engaged, or pushed back to such a degree that whatever weaponry they had would mow a militia down? Witness what our firepower in Iraq and Afghanistan and further assume that whatever enemy was attacking us wouldn't have the same kind of restraint our own military has in foreign ventures. I don't think infantry armed with small arms would do much good. I could be wrong, though.

Note that the militia was to be able to defend against threats both foreign and domestic.

Note also that the United States, despite its technological superiority, has won virtually no major military campaigns in the last 70 years.

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Response to Atypical Liberal (Reply #59)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 03:20 PM

61. Glacierbay and I were discussing that

And my assertion to your last point is that typically, we do not conduct total war against an enemy, and therefore have had our military somewhat hamstrung.

We lose against guerrilla campaigns, but in standard warfare we are undefeated by far. The only reason we are having a problem in Afghanistan or Iraq is that we can't truly go in with air and space power and systematically level villages, cut off all supplies, obliterate any and all resistance and utilize dreadful tools of warfare that conquerors have used since the beginning. What about chemical and biological warfare? Satellite guided artillery? Satellite guided enemy small arms? Guided anti-personnel cruise missiles? Tactical nuclear weapons? Is this militia going to gun-kata a cruise missile or a low yield nuclear mortar shell out of the sky?

The scenario is open and I am unsure as to how it would play out - but if we were invaded from abroad, I wonder if they would not conduct total warfare on those who resisted, their families, their towns, etc. And if you got into a civil war, I wonder if the same tactics would not be used - total war. Civil War history teaches us that Richmond, Atlanta (Nashville, I believe), Vicksburg, Charleston, Fredericksburg, all were mercilessly shelled and/or leveled and that the Union and Confederacy utilized total war tactics more often than not without regard to civilian populations. I think the only place they didn't burn was Savannah because it was just too pretty.

I dunno, its open to debate. But if things got heated enough for a civil war or a tyrannical government, given the tools of our military, etc., I still maintain that small arms would be of lesser importance. Not insignificant, but...

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Response to AldoLeopold (Reply #61)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 04:12 PM

67. Precisely.

 

The only reason we are having a problem in Afghanistan or Iraq is that we can't truly go in with air and space power and systematically level villages, cut off all supplies, obliterate any and all resistance and utilize dreadful tools of warfare that conquerors have used since the beginning.

Precisely. And they could not be used here, either, without devastating effects to the tax base, which would have more of an impact than any weapon could.

I still maintain that small arms would be of lesser importance. Not insignificant, but...

Maybe so. Better to start off with something, though, than nothing.

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Response to AldoLeopold (Reply #46)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 04:53 PM

70. Our military currently has a few hundred thousand people (maybe 300-350K) as direct combatants.

 

Our armed Citizenry numbers in the tens of millions. (The unorganised militia, lots of them with a lot of combat experience.)

Quantity, it is said, has a quality all its own.

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Response to AldoLeopold (Reply #21)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 01:17 PM

37. Here

 

let me punch some holes in your theory, if civil war ever came to America again, the military would probably fracture, you would have whole units refusing to fire on fellow citizens, sabotage of weapons systems, members taking their weapons and joining citizens.

Don't forget that the Iraq or Afghanistan, so far they've done a pretty good job of resisting us, and lest we forget, my favorite, Vietnam.

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Response to glacierbay (Reply #37)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 02:18 PM

49. Okay

Your split military is a scenario I hadn't considered so I'll grant you that - but assuming that either a foreign power or a fractured military in a domestic war might not show the restraint that the US military has over the years.

Again, though, and I can't stress this enough, much to the irritation of many of my friends, I believe if the law of the land states a right to bear arms, we must obey that law even if we don't agree with it.

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Response to AldoLeopold (Reply #49)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 02:23 PM

51. Agreed. nt.

 

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Response to AldoLeopold (Reply #21)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 01:56 PM

42. We're guaranteed the right to bear arms

In order to form a well regulated militia.

Try not to forget what is clearly stated 1st in the amendment.

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Response to AlbertCat (Reply #42)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 02:16 PM

48. Again, that's why I said we're guaranteed the right to bear arms

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Response to AldoLeopold (Reply #21)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 04:49 PM

68. You need to read up on assymetrical warfare.

 

That said, our choppers get shot down with some irregularity by small arms.

Your "hold water" dismissal is not based on reality or, I suspect, a good information base.

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Response to PavePusher (Reply #68)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 06:19 PM

73. Thanks!

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Response to Loudly (Reply #4)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 11:33 AM

6. You keep pushing that ridiculous meme Shares.

 

The 2A is here to stay no matter all your dithering and hand wringing.

My deepest sympathies to the father and family. Tragic.

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Response to glacierbay (Reply #6)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 11:36 AM

9. Yes, such a tragedy.

 

Now carry on dying Americans.

Crocodile tears.

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Response to Loudly (Reply #9)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 11:37 AM

12. Whatever. nt.

 

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Response to Loudly (Reply #4)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 01:14 PM

33. It is, however, still the law.

 

Your only constitutional argument was rendered obsolete at Appomattox.

I don't think any troops have been quartered in any homes since then, either, but it's still the law that troops cannot be quartered in homes, under the third amendment.

And that is the thing people like you refuse to acknowledge:

It doesn't matter if the law is obsolete or not. It doesn't matter if the people no longer have the will or ability to wage war against our government. It is still the law.

Until the law is changed, the United States Constitution provides that the people have the right to keep and bear military-grade small arms appropriate for military use so that they can function as soldiers in an emergency.

It is the law.

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Response to Atypical Liberal (Reply #33)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 01:16 PM

36. i don't see those words in the Constitution: military-grade small arms appropriate for military use

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Response to samsingh (Reply #36)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 02:25 PM

52. Well to be fair

A well organized militia sounds like 18th century speak for military grade small arms. It's all relative. Frankly, under the law, I think private militias should be able to be formed. Since the wording is characteristically vague for the founding fathers, its difficult to explain what precisely they meant.

In my humble opine, if a guy wants to buy a tank, he oughta be able to buy a tank. As long as he doesn't use it against his fellow citizens. Of course, in practice, in a modern state, this might not work out so well.

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Response to AldoLeopold (Reply #52)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 02:32 PM

55. You can buy a tank

 

if you have the scratch.

http://www.military-vehicles.us/military-tanks-for-sale.shtml

You can even have an operable main gun as long as you go through the necessary steps with the BATFE.

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Response to glacierbay (Reply #55)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 02:37 PM

57. Wow

I'll take this one please and don't forget the pleather interior (I'm a vegetarian)

http://www.military-vehicles.us/merkava-4.html

I've always loved the merkava.

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Response to AldoLeopold (Reply #57)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 02:43 PM

58. Nice choice

 

I've always been partial to the M-1 Abrams.



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Response to glacierbay (Reply #58)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 04:03 PM

65. nice looking machine

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Response to AldoLeopold (Reply #52)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 04:02 PM

64. good point

buy and keep all the weapons you want. don't leave your property with them.

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Response to samsingh (Reply #36)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 03:05 PM

60. It is obvious. Let us take a look at the second amendment:

 

A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

Clearly the second amendment here is saying that the people shall keep and bear arms, and one of the reasons for doing so is for service in a militia.

The militias were the intended military forces when the country was founded. The idea was that they would eliminate the need for a federal standing army, or at least be able to counter its strength if necessary. There is a reason why the founders continued the use of a decentralized military rather than a centralized one - they feared concentrations of power in the military just as they did in the government itself.

Obviously if you are going to keep and bear arms for militia use, this means that those arms must be suitable for militia use. It's also understood that the militias were infantry forces, not naval. This means that the arms must be suitable for infantry use. It's also understood that what is being talked about here are "small" arms - arms that can be fielded by the individual, not crew-served weaponry like cannons (though these were privately owned also).

So the second amendment is clearly about military-grade small arms appropriate for military use.

In 1776 this was a muzzle-loading handgun or musket. Today it is an auto-loading handgun and "assault" rifle.

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Response to Atypical Liberal (Reply #33)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 02:29 PM

54. And might I add

To amend my earlier post, that regulation may be deemed infringement under the law - so, again, with you on this. The law is the law.

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Response to Loudly (Reply #2)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 01:07 PM

28. the Upper Midwest has one of the lowest violent crime rates in the country.

Murder rates in the upper Midwest are as low as those in Western Europe.

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Response to Loudly (Reply #2)


Response to Loudly (Reply #2)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 04:03 PM

66. a lot of people in rural areas depend on guns and ammunition

to hunt in order to eat. Also to protect themselves and their livestock from potential predator attacks.

In my little neck of the woods, we have a cougar, bears, moose, coyotes, coy-dogs, fisher cats, bobcats and possibly wolves. And I'm near the coast where it's relatively civilized. Inland to the north they routinely find one or herds of 20 or so deer slaughtered by coy-dogs, who hunt in large packs and, like dogs, thrill-kill. I've heard large packs of either coy-dogs or wolves within 100 feet of my house on the moose trail that separates my property from my neighbors. I had just let my lab-x out to pee, when I saw him freeze up. I opened the door, heard the howling, didn't even have to call him. He hightailed it back inside full speed and made a run for his "safe place" in the attic.

Our very small police department is closed on weekends. Last year a neighbor held a burglar at gunpoint from ~2am until ~2:30am waiting for the police to arrive.

But yeah, take away the guns here.

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Response to mahatmakanejeeves (Original post)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 11:33 AM

7. Whatever the details, it probably comes down to a mentally ill person taking stuff too seriously

 

This is a tragic story.

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #7)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 11:36 AM

11. ...a mentally ill person with a firearm taking stuff too seriously.

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Response to Comrade Grumpy (Reply #11)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 11:37 AM

13. Would you feel better if he had beaten them to death with a baseball bat?

 

Maybe focusing on the mental illness would be the smart approach to this kind of problem.

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #13)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 12:05 PM

17. Well at the very least 3 of these people would feel a lot better.

They'd be alive if he had a baseball bat instead of gun.

And why can't we focus on both the mental illness and the lack of gun control? Why does it have to be one or the other?

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Response to geomon666 (Reply #17)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 12:12 PM

19. Not necessarily

 

you can kill 3 people with 3 blows from a baseball bat, especially 3 children. This person was intent, for whatever reason, on killing these 4 people and whether a gun, knife, baseball bat, it would have made no difference.

And there is no lack of gun control, there are thousands of gun control laws in this country, they need to be better enforced.

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Response to geomon666 (Reply #17)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 12:13 PM

20. Are you saying it wouldn't have been possible to kill an elderly woman and three children...

 

...with a baseball bat?

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #20)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 12:20 PM

22. Well I don't know how the scenario goes in your mind

But in my mind, he kills the grandmother which makes a lot of noise and effort. Kids see that or hear that and run away.

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Response to geomon666 (Reply #22)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 12:26 PM

23. One blow to the head with a baseball bat will kill a human.

 

Not much noise, and then he goes after the kids, who are so terrified that they are frozen and he finishes them off.
That's a believable scenario.
You don't need a gun to commit multiple murders.

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Response to glacierbay (Reply #23)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 12:30 PM

24. Yeah but what's more likely?

He would silently stalk and kill 4 people with a baseball bat or he's bludgeoning one while the others escape?

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Response to geomon666 (Reply #24)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 01:03 PM

25. So it's okay to kill one?

 

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Response to geomon666 (Reply #24)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 04:59 PM

71. You think a gun is silent?

 

Seriously, have you even thought about what you are saying?

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Response to glacierbay (Reply #23)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 01:59 PM

44. "You don't need a gun to commit multiple murders"....but it sure helps.

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Response to Comrade Grumpy (Reply #44)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 02:09 PM

45. Yes it does

 

I was just disputing Loudly's statement that no gun, no mass murder.

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Response to mahatmakanejeeves (Original post)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 12:07 PM

18. Oh my...

slackmaster time...freshwest, where are you when we need you?

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Response to SoapBox (Reply #18)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 01:06 PM

26. He's certainly mopping up the floor.

 

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Response to mahatmakanejeeves (Original post)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 01:08 PM

29. OMG!

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Response to mahatmakanejeeves (Original post)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 02:28 PM

53. ...

thread got hijacked by the pro/anti-gun advocates. from what I'm told, the kid who did the killing was a meth user and went to the home because one of the kids' parents owed $$$ on a drug deal...yes, the energy boom here has brought in a lot of unsavory characters and aggravated social ills but that's a whole nother story...

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Response to cntrfthrs (Reply #53)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 02:34 PM

56. Thanks for that info

 

and welcome to DU.

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Response to mahatmakanejeeves (Original post)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 09:40 PM

76. On the one hand, with so many guns in this country there's no realistic, feasible way to get rid of

them all. On the other hand, the number of mass/multiple shootings we've witnessed seems to indicate that *something* must be done. What precisely that something is, I don't know. The UK, if I'm not mistaken, virtually banned private handgun ownership after the Hungerford Massacre (and others) back in the 90's. I'm not advocating such a step myself - and in the current political climate it would get absolutely nowhere - but our default response of essentially "doing nothing" hardly seems satisfactory either.

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Response to mahatmakanejeeves (Original post)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 10:02 PM

77. And right on cue, our "pro gun progressives"* rush in to exploit this bloodpath to pimp on

behalf of more guns for more people in more places. Such vile posting behavior is quite routine from that quarter.


*( )

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Response to apocalypsehow (Reply #77)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 09:04 AM

80. Talk about someone rushing in to start with the insults

 

you never fail.

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Response to apocalypsehow (Reply #77)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 09:13 AM

81. People who turn every thread about a shooting into a "gun" thread make DU suck

 

I blame Loudly for making this thread suck.

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Response to mahatmakanejeeves (Original post)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 10:19 PM

78. One of the young women who works at my local coffee shop is from Mandan

she told me that while the media is so happy to hype the economic boon but no one is talking about the number of rapes and there are several women who have disappeared.

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Response to dflprincess (Reply #78)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 08:29 AM

79. "... there are several women who have disappeared."

One of the best known examples of that was a school teacher in Sidney, Montana, who disappearaed while out on a morning run in January 2012.

Recovered body identified as Montana math teacher Sherry Arnold, authorities say

March 22, 2012 2:38 PM

(CBS/AP) BILLINGS, Mont. - Authorities have identified a body found in North Dakota as missing Montana teacher Sherry Arnold, who was kidnapped in January.

The identification was made Thursday after the body of 43-year-old Arnold was taken to the Montana State Crime Lab in Missoula.

Arnold was abducted on Jan. 7 off a street in Sidney, Montana while jogging at the edge of town. Michael Spell, 22, and Lester Van Waters Jr., 48, were charged with aggravated kidnapping in the case and await trial.

Arnold's body was found near Williston, N.D., about 50 miles northeast of Sidney. It's not clear what led authorities to that location, although one of the suspects in the case had apparently tried to lead FBI agents to the site in past weeks but failed.
....

Court documents filed by the prosecutor in the case indicate Spell has confessed to his role in what an affidavit described as the crack-fueled abduction and killing of Arnold.


"Sidney, Montana" and "crack-fueled" are two phrases that, until 2012, surely never appeared together in the same sentence.

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