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Mon Nov 19, 2012, 02:48 PM

Hamas Leader Dares Israel to Invade Amid Gaza Airstrikes

Source: New York Times

By FARES AKRAM, JODI RUDOREN and ALAN COWELL
Published: November 19, 2012

GAZA CITY — The top leader of Hamas dared Israel on Monday to launch a ground invasion of Gaza and dismissed diplomatic efforts to broker a cease-fire in the six-day-old conflict, as the Israeli military conducted a new wave of deadly airstrikes on the besieged Palestinian enclave, including a second hit on a 15-story building that houses media outlets. A volley of rockets fired from Gaza into southern Israel included one that hit a vacant school.

Speaking at a news conference in Cairo, where the diplomatic efforts were under way, the Hamas leader, Khaled Meshal, suggested that the Israeli infantry mobilization on the border with Gaza was a bluff on the part of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of Israel.

“If you wanted to launch it, you would have done it,” Mr. Meshal told reporters. He accused Israel of using the invasion threat as an attempt to “dictate its own terms and force us into silence.”

Rejecting Israel’s contention that Hamas had precipitated the conflict, Mr. Meshal said the burden was on the Israelis. “The demand of the people of Gaza is meeting their legimitate demands — for Israel to be restrained from its aggression, assassinations and invasions, and for the siege over Gaza to be ended,” he said.



Read more: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/20/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-conflict.html?_r=0&hp=&adxnnl=1&adxnnlx=1353354251-cr+3/Bu4xvFDCKWor3w/lQ



Sounds like the leader of Hamas agrees he started this latest conflict and has no desire to end it, in fact, he wishes to amplify the conflict. Hamas really seems to care about the people of Gaza

47 replies, 5381 views

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Reply Hamas Leader Dares Israel to Invade Amid Gaza Airstrikes (Original post)
ellisonz Nov 2012 OP
glacierbay Nov 2012 #1
ellisonz Nov 2012 #2
glacierbay Nov 2012 #5
Comrade Grumpy Nov 2012 #3
ellisonz Nov 2012 #4
FreeBC Nov 2012 #8
ellisonz Nov 2012 #13
FreeBC Nov 2012 #20
ellisonz Nov 2012 #21
glacierbay Nov 2012 #6
FreeBC Nov 2012 #9
glacierbay Nov 2012 #10
ellisonz Nov 2012 #11
ProgressiveProfessor Nov 2012 #25
Freddie Stubbs Nov 2012 #7
glacierbay Nov 2012 #12
Lars39 Nov 2012 #14
King_David Nov 2012 #42
Lars39 Nov 2012 #45
King_David Nov 2012 #46
King_David Nov 2012 #47
FreeBC Nov 2012 #15
Mosby Nov 2012 #30
azurnoir Nov 2012 #16
ellisonz Nov 2012 #18
azurnoir Nov 2012 #23
ellisonz Nov 2012 #27
azurnoir Nov 2012 #33
azurnoir Nov 2012 #34
ellisonz Nov 2012 #36
Recursion Nov 2012 #26
ellisonz Nov 2012 #28
Recursion Nov 2012 #29
ellisonz Nov 2012 #31
Recursion Nov 2012 #32
ellisonz Nov 2012 #35
John2 Nov 2012 #19
azurnoir Nov 2012 #22
riderinthestorm Nov 2012 #44
John2 Nov 2012 #17
azurnoir Nov 2012 #24
Scootaloo Nov 2012 #40
azurnoir Nov 2012 #41
Puregonzo1188 Nov 2012 #37
Ash_F Nov 2012 #38
Ken Burch Nov 2012 #39
center rising Nov 2012 #43

Response to ellisonz (Original post)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 02:52 PM

1. I agree with you 100%

 

It sounds like he wants to escalate the conflict and he doesn't really care for the innocent civilians that will be caught up in this.

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Response to glacierbay (Reply #1)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 02:56 PM

2. In short, he's a coward.

May he burn in hell for all of the innocents whose lives he is running through this endless, pointless agitation. I on him and all who put war ahead of peace. He's scum.

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Response to ellisonz (Reply #2)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 03:08 PM

5. In short

 

I agree 100%, and that especially includes the Bush Admin.

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Response to ellisonz (Original post)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 02:59 PM

3. Meshal calls Israel's bluff.

Netanyahu has gotten Israel into yet another lose-lose war.

It's worth repeating what Hamas and the residents of Gaza want: “The demand of the people of Gaza is meeting their legimitate demands — for Israel to be restrained from its aggression, assassinations and invasions, and for the siege over Gaza to be ended,” he said.


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Response to Comrade Grumpy (Reply #3)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 03:04 PM

4. If you think that it is Israel, that will lose this war...

...I must sincerely question your basic understanding of what life in a combat zone is like. The only people who are losing are the innocent people of Gaza and Israel.

So long as Hamas and their extremist allies are allowed to use Gaza as their plateau for provoking conflict there will be no peace in Gaza.

This blood-sucking ass-hat would do well by the people of of Gaza to express some desire for peace. Instead, he is not, he is shitting all over peace. It's worth repeating what he said before spewing his nonsense:

“If you wanted to launch it, you would have done it,” Mr. Meshal told reporters. He accused Israel of using the invasion threat as an attempt to “dictate its own terms and force us into silence.


I wonder how you would react to having your neighborhood shelled with unguided rocket barrages.

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Response to ellisonz (Reply #4)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 03:13 PM

8. There will be two losers

 

Nobody wins.

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Response to FreeBC (Reply #8)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 03:20 PM

13. The Israeli military if they want can stop this completely...

...with minimal casualties. They have complete military superiority if they choose to exercise it, and now with the Iron Dome system Hamas cannot even effectively strike back. The longer this goes on the heavier casualties Hamas will take, the reverse is not necessarily true. It may be cold hard math, but it's math nonetheless.

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Response to ellisonz (Reply #13)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 03:51 PM

20. But you have to consider the PR war.

 

Israel can't realistically kill enough people in Gaza to even make a tiny dent in their total population. The world community will not allow it. That's the real math. And they just confirm more life long enemies with every missile.

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Response to FreeBC (Reply #20)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 03:58 PM

21. Israel is not trying to "kill enough people in Gaza"

That's PR bullshit and a backhanded assertion that Israel is somehow trying to commit genocide. If Israel's goal was genocide why is it that there has been no major fighting in the West Bank in almost a decade since the end of the Second Intifada? I was skeptical that the wall would work in the West Bank, but I think it's pretty clear that is has worked and it has brought peace in the West Bank even with the violence in Gaza, war in Lebanon, and the uprisings in Syria and Egypt. If Hamas will go away, there will be peace, but that will not happen until their supply of weapons is diminished and they are not resupplied by Iran.

http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/11/19/15282386-irans-fingerprints-on-hamas-weaponry-but-its-larger-role-in-israel-gaza-crisis-remains-murky?lite

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Response to Comrade Grumpy (Reply #3)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 03:11 PM

6. If he's got the best interests of his people in his mind

 

then why does he allow the rocket launchers to be hidden in residential neighborhoods?

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Response to glacierbay (Reply #6)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 03:15 PM

9. Hamas was democratically elected by the people of Gaza

 

They knew what they were getting into, just like the Israelis knew what they were getting into when they elected Netanyahu.

There's really nothing Obama or the US can do to make this situation better. Any suggestion of peace talks seems ludicrous when the people of both lands are electing representatives that favor war.

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Response to FreeBC (Reply #9)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 03:18 PM

10. Yes they were

 

and look at what they got.
I will agree that any talk of peace seems to go down the drain.

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Response to FreeBC (Reply #9)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 03:18 PM

11. Hamas was "democratically elected" and then proceeded to brutally eliminate the Fatah opposition.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Gaza_%282007%29

There is a reason there is no war in the West Bank right now

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Response to FreeBC (Reply #9)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 04:21 PM

25. Who have not allowed an election of any sort since

and have imprisoned and executed their political opposition

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Response to ellisonz (Original post)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 03:11 PM

7. Of course Meshal wants this. There would be civilian casualties to garner international sympathy,

while Meshal is safe in Cairo.

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Response to Freddie Stubbs (Reply #7)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 03:19 PM

12. I suspect that you're right. nt.

 

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Response to ellisonz (Original post)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 03:25 PM

14. What I'm seeing is that the leaders of both countries sees a certain percentage of their own

populations as expendable. Hamas side going for broke with the rockets, Israeli side retaliating with collective punishment that results in more land for Israel and more misery for the Palestinians. At a certain point the leaders of *both* countries are playing their citizenry as chumps.

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Response to Lars39 (Reply #14)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 11:26 PM

42. 'more land for Israel ' ?

Did you miss the part where Israel Pulled every last Jew and Jewish Settlement out of Gaza ?

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Response to King_David (Reply #42)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 06:17 AM

45. So why bulldoze houses that people live in?

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Response to Lars39 (Reply #45)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 07:55 AM

46. When was that?

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Response to Lars39 (Reply #45)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 04:38 PM

47. In Gaza?

Link please.

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Response to ellisonz (Original post)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 03:25 PM

15. Gaza: No Way. Just. Plain. Nope.

 

From the desk of the War Nerd: http://www.nsfwcorp.com/dispatch/gaza-no-way


In a situation like this, the real winner is likely to be the Gazans. But they will win ugly—very, very ugly, and very slow, with a lot of funerals and horror. It’s a good grim proof of the old guerrilla-warfare line: “Victory will go to those who can endure the most, not those who can inflict the most.” And there’s no doubt about who wins that contest. Gaza is a place that’s basically been driven insane. Imagine a strip of land about 20 miles long and five miles wide, with the sea on one side and the IDF on the other, with 1.7 million people festering in some of the world’s nastiest tenements, with no entertainment except the dream of getting a little payback on the people keeping you penned up.

Gaza has one of the highest birthrates in the world. Israel has a mid-range birthrate, but the freakish thing about it is that it’s the West Bank settler-maniacs and the Haredi, the so-called “ultra-Orthodox,” who don’t even serve in the IDF, who have the highest birthrates. Exactly the people Israel and its American supporters don’t want to see outbreeding the secular “mainstream” Israeli Jews.

So Gaza is going to get more and more crowded, more and more angry, more and more willing to take 30 casualties for the chance to inflict just one on the Israelis. That’s about the rate it’s running now, 30 Arab casualties for every Israeli casualty—and you need to realize, that might be absolutely OK with the people in Gaza.
...
A war gamer would say it’s simple: you use your superior weaponry to kill everyone in Gaza, lance it like a boil. Well, that’s not gonna happen. Off the table.

OK, then, you kill the bad guys and try not to kill too many good guys. Nope; there are no good or bad guys in Gaza, just goin’-on-two-million people who’ve been harassed and humiliated and driven clean out of their minds till they’re ready to see their own neighborhood flattened on the off chance they might take a few of you with them.

OK, then, you win them over.

Nope. Just plain nope.

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Response to FreeBC (Reply #15)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 04:42 PM

30. the author of that piece doesn't really say what is a "win"

What does a gaza "win" look like? Is israel going to just throw open the border crossings and say "have at it"?

Truth is that the Palestinians are running out of time for a state, in a couple more decades the world will be trying to relocate a couple billion people away from the coasts due to climate change, the Palestinians will be long forgotten by then. Almost all of tel aviv for example is only a couple meters above sea level, same goes for egypt and lebanon.

That is if the world economy does not collapse first.

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Response to ellisonz (Original post)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 03:32 PM

16. last week Israel broke the cease fire by assassinating Ahmed Jabari after a cease fire was in place

Israel already had plans for this escalation on the table, but it seems that some are quite intent on shifting the blame for the deaths of civilians on to anybody but the ones who actually killed them

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #16)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 03:44 PM

18. Except Hamas has never stopped firing rockets into Israel...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel,_2009
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel,_2010
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel,_2011
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel,_2012

So really, there has only been a unilateral ceasefire on the part of Israel, Hamas has constantly been waging attacks - Israel just has not been waging an air campaign until now. I think until now that Israel has shown great restraint. I think in some sense it's clear that Israel avoided hitting back throughout the various Hamas provocations because it did not want this war.

As POTUS noted in the third debate, Hamas has been bombarding Israel throughout his 2008 candidacy and his presidency:

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Response to ellisonz (Reply #18)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 04:04 PM

23. But Hamas did stepback until the extrajudicial assassination but do use years old stuff

are you attempting to justify Palestinian deaths today, it could seem that way

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #23)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 04:38 PM

27. So you agree that Hamas and it's allies have never stopped attacking Israelis?

I am absolutely prepared to justify Palestinian deaths today by laying them firmly in the hands of Hamas and those who arm Hamas.

The Hamas political leadership does not give a shit about anyone but the Hamas political leadership.

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Response to ellisonz (Reply #27)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 04:54 PM

33. I really do not appreciate having my comments reinterpreted for me eom

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Response to ellisonz (Reply #27)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 04:54 PM

34. see comment #22 for an answer n/t

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #34)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 05:05 PM

36. I think we can agree to disagree.

I'll skip the media hype and go with my analysis based on the apparent military facts. This conflict has been nothing but simmering.

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Response to ellisonz (Reply #18)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 04:27 PM

26. Hamas and Islamic Jihad are not the same thing

But I think you knew that

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Response to Recursion (Reply #26)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 04:40 PM

28. Peas in a pod.

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Response to ellisonz (Reply #28)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 04:41 PM

29. And that is why you fail (nt)

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Response to Recursion (Reply #29)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 04:45 PM

31. That's the best you have?

Explain to me how the political ideology, tactics, and foreign alliances of Islamic Jihad and Hamas are any different.

Really, I'm waiting and please, spare me the classless and categorical insults.

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Response to ellisonz (Reply #31)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 04:50 PM

32. How is a Pan-Islamic movement different from a Palestinian nationalist movement?

If you don't understand a distinction that fundamental here, there's little point in this.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #32)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 05:04 PM

35. I know the history of both groups.

Are you asserting that Hamas does not have transnational alliances? Because such an assertion is flawed on the face of it given the history of Hamas.

The only difference is that Hamas has operated as a political party encompassing a military wing that fights as a terror group while Islamic Jihad operates political programs and is a terrorist group. There very well may be little point in this, but I'll go with the fact-checkers on this one.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Jihad_in_Palestine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas

Western Governments have labelled both as terror organizations. Also, you'd be more persuasive without the condescension.

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #16)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 03:50 PM

19. From

 

arm chair quarterbacks, we don't know who did what? Israel is our ally, so we have to believe Netanyahu in this matter. His claim is Hamas has been lobbing these missiles into Israel for some time. I'd rather take the word of Israel than a government (Hamas) pledging the total destruction of Israel and a one state solution. The fact, they have that as their goal, makes Hamas disingenuous. If Hamas worked more towards peace, then maybe they would be believable.

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Response to John2 (Reply #19)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 04:01 PM

22. well I don't know about you but if one keeps abreast of the news one does know

from 11/13/12

Israel and the Palestinians stepped back from the brink of a new war in the Gaza Strip on Tuesday, sending signals to each other via Egypt that they would hold their fire unless attacked, after five days of mounting violence.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2012/11/13/uk-palestinians-israel-violence-idUKBRE8AB16A20121113

from 11/15/12

Ahead of Election & After Extrajudicial Killing Breaks Truce, Israel Prepares to Bombard Gaza

n the aftermath of the assassination of Hamas military chief Ahmad Jabiri, Israel has escalated its attacks on the Gaza Strip. At least 19 people in Gaza have been killed.

The Associated Press reported Israeli forces are advancing and closing in on the Gaza border, where they are likely to begin a “ground offensive.” Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak has “authorized the call-up of 30,000 army reservists,” according to BBC News.

http://dissenter.firedoglake.com/2012/11/15/after-extrajudicial-killing-breaks-truce-israel-prepares-to-bombard-gaza-ahead-of-countrys-election/

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #16)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 12:17 AM

44. Have you read this Atlantic article? Nobody can say Israel is the instigator!


Recent events in Israel and the Gaza Strip have been unusual only in scope. Violence and fear of violence is a near-daily reality for the residents of Gaza and Israel's southern communities. There's a constant back and forth, and on both sides, there's always something or someone to avenge.

For instance, some Palestinian sources date the start of this latest round of violence back to November 4, when Reuters reported the death of "an unarmed, mentally unfit man" who strayed too near the border fence, did not respond to reported Israeli warnings, and was then shot. Palestinian medics report that Israeli security personnel prevented them from attending to the man for a couple of hours, and say that he likely died as a result.

But it's genuinely impossible to date today's hostilities conclusively to one incident or another; even the "two-week lull" that some outlets have said preceded Nov. 8 (when the timeline below begins) was, according to Reuters "a period of increased tensions at the Israel-Gaza frontier, with militants often firing rockets at Israel and Israel launching aerial raids targeting Palestinian gunmen."

According to Israel's Ministry of Foreign Affairs, as of November 13, Palestinian militants had fired 797 rockets into Israel in the course of 2012 , and according to the Israeli human rights organization Btselem, between January 2009 (the conclusion of the last all-out Gaza war) and September of this year, 25 Israelis were killed by Palestinians, and 314 Palestinians were killed by Israeli security forces, with six more being killed by Israeli civilians.


http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2012/11/who-started-the-israel-gaza-conflict/265374/#

The analysis continues with internal links.

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Response to ellisonz (Original post)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 03:41 PM

17. The

 

only loser speaking militarily will be the people of Gaza. Hamas does not have the military capability of Israel. Hamas is only a pest compared to Israel. Israel does not have to go in on the ground when they can do damage from the air. Hamas is putting the people of Gaza in jeopardy.

If Hamas wants a fight with Israel, then why don't they invade Israel instead of hiding behind civilians. The way they conduct War, is not unlike the terrorists, that use women and children as human shields, to get what they want. And what they really want is the total destruction of Israel. This position is what puts Netanyahu on higher ground. He has a right to defend his country if attack. The situation is untenable, as long as Hamas can lob missiles into Israel when they please. The only solution in the long term is to eliminate Hamas unless they compromise their position, and agree to the two state solution and having peace talks with Israel. The people supporting Hamas in Gaza, can also take actions, to get rid of Hamas for a better government, instead of Jihadists.

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Response to John2 (Reply #17)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 04:19 PM

24. so Palestinians are human sheilds simply because they live in Gaza?

it would seem the definition for human shield is any civilian killed by IDF and what actions would you suggest the people of Gaza take? civil war? you do know that Hamas is preventing elections don't you? the reason is that they would lose and they know that

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #24)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 09:25 PM

40. I wasn't around in 2003... were you?

'Cause I'm wondering if DU was as rife with "They deserve it!" sentiment towards Iraqi civilians during our invasion as it is towards Palestinians, of either territory, in any situation.

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #40)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 10:55 PM

41. no but I was lurking in 2004 and 2005 and DU was solidly antiwar

however when it comes to Palestinians there is no end to the excuse making for whatever actions are taken against them it seems

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Response to ellisonz (Original post)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 08:48 PM

37. Hamas has a better record of keeping ceasefires than Israel does.

Ask Jimmy Carter. Or CNN.

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Response to ellisonz (Original post)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 08:50 PM

38. I don't know. I think at this point a ground invasion would be better than bombing.

Whatever prevents more innocent deaths.

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Response to ellisonz (Original post)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 09:17 PM

39. The man is a butcher and a fool. But only HE and his inner circle should suffer for that.

The ordinary people of Gaza have nothing to do with the Hamas leadership and have no ability whatsoever to stop the madmen within it.

This war is punishing innocent throughout Gaza for the crimes of leaders they have no responsibility for. It is collective punishment, and collective punishment is always immoral.

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Response to ellisonz (Original post)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 12:07 AM

43. Hamas is totaly responsible for the deaths of it's own people

Stop firing rockets into Israel. Israel stops the bombing of Gaza. Simple isn't it!!

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