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Mon Nov 19, 2012, 12:21 PM

Israel Is A Terrorist State: Turkey PM

Source: Reuters

ISTANBUL / DOHA: Turkish Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan described Israel on Monday as a “terrorist state” in carrying out its bombardment of Gaza, underlining hostility for Ankara’s former ally since relations between them collapsed in 2010.

His comments came after nearly a week of Palestinian rocket attacks on Israel and Israeli air strikes on the Gaza Strip. An Israeli missile killed at least 11 Palestinian civilians including four children in Gaza on Sunday.

“Those who associate Islam with terrorism close their eyes in the face of mass killing of Muslims, turn their heads from the massacre of children in Gaza,” Erdogan told a conference of the Eurasian Islamic Council in Istanbul.

“For this reason, I say that Israel is a terrorist state, and its acts are terrorist acts.”

Read more: http://tribune.com.pk/story/468075/israel-is-a-terrorist-state-turkey-pm/

120 replies, 14035 views

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Arrow 120 replies Author Time Post
Reply Israel Is A Terrorist State: Turkey PM (Original post)
Purveyor Nov 2012 OP
Marrah_G Nov 2012 #1
monmouth3 Nov 2012 #2
subsuelo Nov 2012 #63
cabot Nov 2012 #71
John2 Nov 2012 #3
glacierbay Nov 2012 #4
Lionessa Nov 2012 #10
glacierbay Nov 2012 #17
Lionessa Nov 2012 #20
glacierbay Nov 2012 #21
Lionessa Nov 2012 #27
glacierbay Nov 2012 #29
AldoLeopold Nov 2012 #59
ellisonz Nov 2012 #73
Scootaloo Nov 2012 #85
ellisonz Nov 2012 #88
Scootaloo Nov 2012 #91
ellisonz Nov 2012 #92
Scootaloo Nov 2012 #93
AldoLeopold Nov 2012 #87
ellisonz Nov 2012 #90
AldoLeopold Nov 2012 #95
ellisonz Nov 2012 #97
AldoLeopold Nov 2012 #101
Violet_Crumble Nov 2012 #112
ellisonz Nov 2012 #116
AldoLeopold Nov 2012 #119
glacierbay Nov 2012 #84
AldoLeopold Nov 2012 #89
glacierbay Nov 2012 #94
AldoLeopold Nov 2012 #98
glacierbay Nov 2012 #99
AldoLeopold Nov 2012 #103
AldoLeopold Nov 2012 #106
glacierbay Nov 2012 #108
R. Daneel Olivaw Nov 2012 #34
argiel1234 Nov 2012 #60
cabot Nov 2012 #67
Lionessa Nov 2012 #68
cabot Nov 2012 #70
Puregonzo1188 Nov 2012 #82
Mosby Nov 2012 #22
Lionessa Nov 2012 #28
glacierbay Nov 2012 #32
Lionessa Nov 2012 #35
glacierbay Nov 2012 #37
cabot Nov 2012 #69
bunnies Nov 2012 #72
ellisonz Nov 2012 #74
bunnies Nov 2012 #77
ellisonz Nov 2012 #79
King_David Nov 2012 #96
Mosby Nov 2012 #42
Lionessa Nov 2012 #43
glacierbay Nov 2012 #44
cabot Nov 2012 #66
cabot Nov 2012 #65
dipsydoodle Nov 2012 #6
Marrah_G Nov 2012 #14
Ash_F Nov 2012 #81
CuriousAboutPolls Nov 2012 #104
Iggo Nov 2012 #5
Marrah_G Nov 2012 #15
R. Daneel Olivaw Nov 2012 #45
Marrah_G Nov 2012 #46
glacierbay Nov 2012 #48
intaglio Nov 2012 #47
Poll_Blind Nov 2012 #56
LineReply .
GermanSmoker Nov 2012 #7
Lionessa Nov 2012 #8
glacierbay Nov 2012 #19
Lionessa Nov 2012 #23
glacierbay Nov 2012 #25
Lionessa Nov 2012 #30
glacierbay Nov 2012 #33
Lionessa Nov 2012 #36
glacierbay Nov 2012 #38
regnaD kciN Nov 2012 #57
regnaD kciN Nov 2012 #39
Lionessa Nov 2012 #40
PerceptionManagement Nov 2012 #61
TeeYiYi Nov 2012 #24
Lionessa Nov 2012 #31
TeeYiYi Nov 2012 #41
cali Nov 2012 #75
AnotherMcIntosh Nov 2012 #107
Poll_Blind Nov 2012 #9
ProgressiveProfessor Nov 2012 #12
DavidDvorkin Nov 2012 #11
R. Daneel Olivaw Nov 2012 #58
Selatius Nov 2012 #120
ProgressiveProfessor Nov 2012 #13
Poll_Blind Nov 2012 #16
ProgressiveProfessor Nov 2012 #18
Poll_Blind Nov 2012 #26
ProgressiveProfessor Nov 2012 #80
hack89 Nov 2012 #49
Poll_Blind Nov 2012 #53
hack89 Nov 2012 #55
Dash87 Nov 2012 #50
still_one Nov 2012 #51
aquart Nov 2012 #54
aquart Nov 2012 #52
eissa Nov 2012 #62
JustABozoOnThisBus Nov 2012 #64
DeSwiss Nov 2012 #76
dlwickham Nov 2012 #78
happyslug Nov 2012 #86
David__77 Nov 2012 #83
center rising Nov 2012 #100
ForgoTheConsequence Nov 2012 #102
glacierbay Nov 2012 #105
ForgoTheConsequence Nov 2012 #110
azurnoir Nov 2012 #113
AldoLeopold Nov 2012 #109
ForgoTheConsequence Nov 2012 #111
AldoLeopold Nov 2012 #115
AldoLeopold Nov 2012 #117
azurnoir Nov 2012 #114
AldoLeopold Nov 2012 #118

Response to Purveyor (Original post)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 12:23 PM

1. It all depends on which side you are looking at the problem from

People who favor Israel think the Palestinians are terrorists.

People who favor the Palestinians think the Israelis are terrorists.

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Response to Marrah_G (Reply #1)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 12:38 PM

2. There are no "winners" here....n/t

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Response to monmouth3 (Reply #2)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 06:01 PM

63. Except the bomb makers n/t

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Response to subsuelo (Reply #63)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 06:22 PM

71. True - unfortunately

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Response to Marrah_G (Reply #1)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 12:39 PM

3. Not if

 

you look at it logically and look at the issues. We are talking about three factions when we look at the Palestinians and Israel. The problem seems the Palestinians doesn't speak with one Government. The Government in Gaza is Hamas. That is who Israel is attacking. The Government in Gaza is the problem but the people in Gaza supports them. Hamas's charter calls for a one state solution with the destruction of Israel and apparently, they want stop at nothing to get that result. So I have to take Netanyahu's side. Hamas needs to capitulate or isolated until they change their position for a solution.

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Response to John2 (Reply #3)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 12:50 PM

4. +100000

 

Hamas needs to renounce it's charter calling for the destruction of Israel, renounce terrorism, quit firing rockets into Israel, both sides need to sit down w/o pre-conditions and hammer out a peace treaty that will benefit both sides and the region.

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Response to glacierbay (Reply #4)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 01:12 PM

10. How foolish, you start with preconditions, then end with "sit down w/o pre-conditions".

 

I also notice none of your preconditions include anything on Israel, like allowing humanitarian ship access and such.

You may be trying to sound fair and reasonable, but you've truly failed.

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Response to Lionessa (Reply #10)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 01:40 PM

17. When I talk pre-conditions

 

I mean like demanding territory.
But you're correct about letting aid in.
I've only failed in your eyes, which means squat to me.
But you have a good day.

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Response to glacierbay (Reply #17)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 01:43 PM

20. Well sorry, I didn't realize you had a different language than the rest of us.

 

Looked like English to me.

Even in your rebuttal, you show your deference to Israel and callout Palestine. Thank you for giving me an accurate measure of how to rate your input on this matter.

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Response to Lionessa (Reply #20)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 01:48 PM

21. You're damn right I have a deference to Israel

 

My wife is Jewish, she has family in Tel Aviv, she served in the IDF in the early 70's, she experienced first hand the terrorist attacks by the PLO, and other terrorist org., she was there for the 1973 Yom Kippur War, so yeah, I have a deference for Israel.
Quite frankly, I don't really care how you rate me, your opinion means squat.
But you have a nice day.

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Response to glacierbay (Reply #21)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 01:58 PM

27. Then her family should be demanding their country

 

learn some inclusiveness and quit being such bullies.

Jut because you have in-laws over there doesn't somehow make Israel correct, having a Jewish wife doesn't make them correct, what it does is makes you biased in such a way as to resemble the poor, republican warmongers, who suggest that because they have a son or daughter in the military, somehow every war is just and right.

Complete idiocy. But again thank you for exposing your irrational bias, it is good that all are able to read it and judge future comments by it.

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Response to Lionessa (Reply #27)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 02:03 PM

29. And your comments tell me all I need to know what you think of Israel.

 

Complete idiocy. But again thank you for exposing your irrational bias, it is good that all are able to read it and judge future comments by it.

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Response to glacierbay (Reply #29)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 03:40 PM

59. Question though

Because my family is not from Tel Aviv. The Israeli state was created in 1948 by international agreement and supported by Truman and Churchill. I know what my history tells me, but I'm curious what people think over there about - well, the decision to create the nation in the first place?

It did not exist at that time except in the hearts and minds of Jews all over the world, nor had it existed as an independent political entity since the Roman invasion. I ask this not out of some snide reasoning or in an effort to be, for lack of a better word, insensitive, but does your wife or do your in-laws ever express regret in the Jewish people's return to Israel? That perhaps there might have been other options besides the resettlement of Palestinians?

Thinking Americans feel regret about the extermination, re-education and resettlement of the native americans, but they're not shooting rockets at us. So, this is somewhat different, I think.

I think that's a legitimate question considering everything that has happened since the founding and I'd be interested to know what they think. I'm sorry if this is offensive. I'm really not trying to be.

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Response to AldoLeopold (Reply #59)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 06:27 PM

73. "That perhaps there might have been other options besides the resettlement of Palestinians?"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:1948_Arab_Israeli_War_-_May_15-June_10.svg

Your question presumes that Israel made such a choice. Israel was attacked by the armies of 5 Arab Nations. Israel won that war. Should Israel have chosen to lose that war? Were some people forced off land, sure, but was that a deliberate policy of the Israeli government: absolutely not. The Arabs were not prepared to accept any comprise that would have created a Jewish state and I don't think you can objectively look at the issue without considering the eviction/evacuation of nearly 1 million Jews from across the Muslim world.

There's no fruit in counter-factual consideration and irrelevant comparisons- what has happened has happened, the real question is why groups like Hamas refuse to turn swords into plowshares


Also, I would just suggest that you consider the Terms of Service you have agreed to in regards to this topic just so you've been informed on this websites policy in regard to this topic:

No bigoted hate speech.

Do not post bigotry based on someone's race or ethnic origin, gender, sexual orientation, gender identity, religion or lack thereof, disability, or other comparable personal characteristic. To be clear: This includes any post which states opposition to full equal rights for gays and lesbians; it also includes any post asserting disloyalty by Jewish Americans, claiming nefarious influence by Jews/Zionists/Israel, advocating the destruction of the state of Israel, or arguing that Holocaust deniers are just misunderstood. In determining what constitutes bigotry, please be aware that we cannot know what is in anyone's heart, and we will give members the benefit of the doubt, when — and only when — such doubt exists.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=termsofservice

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Response to ellisonz (Reply #73)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 10:02 PM

85. The irony of a Nakba denier posting the ToS...

But then, the Anti-Palestinian brigade doesn't have to follow DU's rules, and never have, so, I guess I can see where you're coming from.

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #85)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 10:50 PM

88. I didn't deny anything...

I contextualized a historical fact. If you have legitimate documents as proof that the Israeli government developed an official policy of expulsion in 1948, please present it, but otherwise I'm going to continue to go with the mainstream historical analysis in regards to this question: there was a war, shit happened. In terms of this argument, the only reasonable explanation is that there was population movement both forced and voluntary on both sides - 700,000 Palestinians out of Israel and 1 million Jews out of the Arab World. You can call it whatever the heck you want, but those are the historical facts: there was a war, people moved both willingly and unwillingly, but at no point did the Israeli government institute an official policy of expulsion. After the war, 156,000 Palestinian Arabs would eventually become Israeli citizens with full rights: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel#1948_Arab-Israeli_War

Don't deny history, it never really helps any sort of argument.

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Response to ellisonz (Reply #88)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 11:04 PM

91. "There was a war. Shit happened."

How glib.

Nanking? There was a war, shit happened.
Wounded Knee? There was a war, shit happened.
Trnopolje? There was a war, shit happened.
Dresden? There was a war, shit happened.
Warsaw? There was a war, shit happened.
Fallujah? There was a war, shit happened.
Nagasaki? There was a war, shit happened.
Dier Yassin? There was a war, shit happened.
Sbarro? There was a war, shit happened.
Kigali? There was a war, shit happened.

What a fine, fine standard to be held on Democratic Underground. Now if you're done with patting yourself on the back about your even-handed dismissal of atrocity, I think it's time you returned to your mindless blather in support of more.

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #91)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 11:20 PM

92. Nice list of spurious comparisons.

My mindless blather comes backed by widespread agreement among mainstream historians that this was a complex historical event with divergent motivations on all sides that resists categorical moral judgment of the actors. I also notice you did not meet my challenge to demonstrate how expulsion was the official policy of the Israeli government in 1948.

Just because I don't agree that Israel is some sort of monster founded on ethnic cleansing and genocide doesn't mean I'm wrong - how easy it must be to live in a world of simplifications.

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Response to ellisonz (Reply #92)


Response to ellisonz (Reply #73)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 10:42 PM

87. Wow huh wut?

Look man, I think that's all pretty darn insulting. I don't want to destroy the Jewish state or think zionist what the frack are you talking about and why am I replying to this crazy accusation???

I was just asking the man a question because I thought he might have some insight as to what people thought over there. He understood. He knew I was just curious. Why don't you? I call it "learning." I guess you call it hate speech?

Also, the 1948 creation of Israel predated the wars. These are excerpts from the wiki link you posted and associated links in the article:

The United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine was a plan for the future government of Palestine. The Plan was described as a Plan of Partition with Economic Union which, after the termination of the British Mandate, would lead to the creation of independent Arab and Jewish States and the Special International Regime for the City of Jerusalem. On 29 November 1947, the General Assembly adopted a resolution recommending the adoption and implementation of the Plan as Resolution 181(II).

Part I of the Plan contained provisions dealing with the Termination of the Mandate, Partition and Independence. The Mandate would be terminated as soon as possible and the United Kingdom would withdraw from Palestine no later than the previously announced date of 1 August 1948. The new states would come into existence two months after the withdrawal, but no later than 1 October 1948. The Plan sought to address the conflicting objectives and claims of two competing movements: Arab nationalism and Jewish nationalism (Zionism). Part II of the Plan included a detailed description of the proposed boundaries for each state. The Plan also called for Economic Union between the proposed states, and for the protection of religious and minority rights.

The Plan was accepted by the leaders of the Jewish community in Palestine, through the Jewish Agency. The Plan was rejected by leaders of the Arab community, including the Palestinian Arab Higher Committee, who were supported in their rejection by the states of the Arab League. The Arab leadership (in and out of Palestine) opposed partition and claimed all of Palestine. The Arabs argued that it violated the rights of the majority of the people in Palestine, which at the time was 65% non-Jewish (1,200,000) and 35% Jewish (650,000).

The 1948 Arab–Israeli War or the First Arab-Israeli War was fought between the State of Israel and a military coalition of Arab states and Palestinian Arab forces. This war was the second stage of the 1948 Palestine war, known in Arabic as al-Nakba (Arabic: النكبة‎, "The Catastrophe") and in Hebrew as the Milkhemet Ha'atzma'ut (Hebrew: מלחמת העצמאות‎, "War of Independence") or Milkhemet Hashikhrur (Hebrew: מלחמת השחרור‎ "War of Liberation").

The war was preceded by a period of civil war in the territory of the Mandatory Palestine between Jewish Yishuv forces and Palestinian Arab forces in response to the UN Partition Plan. An alliance of Arab states intervened on the Palestinian side, turning the civil war into a war between sovereign states. The fighting took place mostly on the former territory of the British Mandate and for a short time also in the Sinai Peninsula and southern Lebanon.

At the issue of the war, the State of Israel kept of nearly all the area that had been recommended by the UN General Assembly Resolution 181 and took control of almost 60% of the area allocated to the proposed Arab state, including the Jaffa, Lydda and Ramle area, Galilee, some parts of the Negev, a wide strip along the Tel-Aviv-Jerusalem road and some territories in the West Bank. Transjordan took control of the remainder of the West Bank and East-Jerusalem, putting it under military rule, and the Egyptian military took control of the Gaza Strip. No Arab Palestinian state was created. Armistice agreements were signed between all belligerants except Irakis and Palestinians.

Important demographic changes occurred in the country. Between 600,000 and 760,000 Palestinian Arabs fled or were expelled from the area that became Israel and became Palestinian refugees. On the other hand, around 10,000 Jews were forced to leave their homes in Palestine. The war and the creation of Israel also triggered the Jewish exodus from Arab lands. In the three years following the war, about 700,000 Jews immigrated to Israel, residing mainly along the borders of the State.

Why don't you read what you post, punk? And don't ever call me an anti-semite. I've been to Dachau. Have you? I saw the roses put on the oven lids every morning by the nuns. Have you? I watched people run out of the theater in the on-site museum in tears because they couldn't handle the archival footage. I bitched out the tour guide IN GERMAN who drove our freakin' bus because he had the nerve to say that the town didn't know about it. It was right smack dab in the middle of the damn town. I volunteered with a jewish friend of mine on several occasions when I was in high school at the holocaust museum in Dallas. So why don't you take whatever you are smokin, pass it around, and stop makin stuff up. The facts are the facts, it doesn't mean I hate jews or in favor of this or against that. If ever a people deserved their own state its the Jewish people, but its caused a bit of a hubub, or wouldn't you agree?? Damn son

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Response to AldoLeopold (Reply #87)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 10:59 PM

90. I did not call you "an anti-semite."

I answered your question in a way you apparently you did not like and now you're throwing a tantrum. If you can post where I called you an Anti-Semite, I would believe your charge there, but I don't think you can, because I in no way called you such a thing.

I did suggest that one must be careful in this website in terms of how we talk about the creation of the State of Israel and what we are allowed to consider in the range of potential solutions to the present conflict.

So why don't you take whatever you are smokin, pass it around, and stop makin stuff up.


I suggest you take your own advice in this regard.

If ever a people deserved their own state its the Jewish people, but its caused a bit of a hubub, or wouldn't you agree?? Damn son


Honestly, as someone with a degree in history, your question was crap. Damn son.

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Response to ellisonz (Reply #90)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 11:37 PM

95. So what's this then?

No bigoted hate speech.

Do not post bigotry based on someone's race or ethnic origin, gender, sexual orientation, gender identity, religion or lack thereof, disability, or other comparable personal characteristic. To be clear: This includes any post which states opposition to full equal rights for gays and lesbians; it also includes any post asserting disloyalty by Jewish Americans, claiming nefarious influence by Jews/Zionists/Israel, advocating the destruction of the state of Israel, or arguing that Holocaust deniers are just misunderstood. In determining what constitutes bigotry, please be aware that we cannot know what is in anyone's heart, and we will give members the benefit of the doubt, when — and only when — such doubt exists.

I call that accusing me of antisemitism. You didn't even ask me to clarify what I meant by the question - no, you just thought you'd flex your internet balls and stamp down on the newby? A gentleman would apologize and swallow his pride. Instead, to get me to shut up, you threaten me with the TOS.

"Your question presumes that Israel made such a choice. Israel was attacked by the armies of 5 Arab Nations. Israel won that war. Should Israel have chosen to lose that war? Were some people forced off land, sure, but was that a deliberate policy of the Israeli government: absolutely not. The Arabs were not prepared to accept any comprise that would have created a Jewish state and I don't think you can objectively look at the issue without considering the eviction/evacuation of nearly 1 million Jews from across the Muslim world."

Lets argue to your point for a moment. First of all, its a straw-man argument. The state was created and sanctioned by Churchill, Truman and the UN. If the UN really worked as well as they had intended it to, people in the arab world wouldn't have gotten so fired up about it. In truth, and I think we all know this, the 1948 war was a convenient excuse for the dictatorships of the region to try to grab some land. In truth, I'll wager, even if the Palestinians had kept their land, the Egyptians or the Syrians might have made a bid for it. IN TRUTH, Truman had in mind an American client state in the mid-east to counteract the Soviet overtures to Egypt, Jordan and Syria in an effort to stem a possible future Soviet grab of the oil fields. I never said anything about the Israeli government. Did I? You assumed it. I don't blame Israel for squat. I blame the gd UN and that mutton-headed Truman for not having the foresight to see this coming. I blame the British for being so blatantly obtuse when it came to colonial affairs that they managed to also botch (along with the French) the de-colonialization of Africa and India/Pakistan, which has caused tribal and now intercontinental warfare in many countries (not just Israel and Palestine) for the past 60 years.

Here's the way I think about it: Suppose aliens landed where you live and say "Look, we've had an intergalactic council and we think the native americans (we'll say the Sioux for this example) really got the short end of the stick. We know its been awhile since they lived on this land, but we've decided that you're all going to live in New Jersey. All 314 million of you. The remaining Sioux and their ancestors are all going to live on the rest of the land. By the way, we're going to give all the Sioux our most advanced weapons so don't screw with them. And don't screw with the Intergalactic Council, cause we're aliens and stuff and we have photon torpedoes."

Like I said in another post. Its too late to change what's happened. Both peoples have their homes there so we're going to have to find another way. Darned if I know what it is, but I bloody well know what caused the problem in the first place.

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Response to AldoLeopold (Reply #95)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 11:48 PM

97. I simply noted that you were coming close to territory...

...as you yourself noted below, that could be read as advocating the destruction of the State of Israel:

To be clear, I'm not advocating the destruction of the Israeli State. That is their home now. Its too late for any of that kind of horrible nonsense and that kind of horrible nonsense has happened to the Jewish People far too many times. We're going to all have to find a way through this by means of compromise and hopefully peace in time.




Lets argue to your point for a moment. First of all, its a straw-man argument. The state was created and sanctioned by Churchill, Truman and the UN. If the UN really worked as well as they had intended it to, people in the arab world wouldn't have gotten so fired up about it. In truth, and I think we all know this, the 1948 war was a convenient excuse for the dictatorships of the region to try to grab some land. In truth, I'll wager, even if the Palestinians had kept their land, the Egyptians or the Syrians might have made a bid for it. IN TRUTH, Truman had in mind an American client state in the mid-east to counteract the Soviet overtures to Egypt, Jordan and Syria in an effort to stem a possible future Soviet grab of the oil fields. I never said anything about the Israeli government. Did I? You assumed it. I don't blame Israel for squat. I blame the gd UN and that mutton-headed Truman for not having the foresight to see this coming. I blame the British for being so blatantly obtuse when it came to colonial affairs that they managed to also botch (along with the French) the de-colonialization of Africa and India/Pakistan, which has caused tribal and now intercontinental warfare in many countries (not just Israel and Palestine) for the past 60 years.


Many historians would argue that what happened in the UN was not terribly influential in the outcome of the war of 1948 where the IDF and its forerunners did not receive any substantial international assistance. Israel did not need permission from Churchill, Truman and the UN to become a state, Israel became a state as a result of a military outcome i.e. the defeat of the Arab Armies. Mind you the British left and the UN partition never became a reality because it was superseded by the military conflict, which Israel won decisively against substantial odds.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1949_Armistice_Agreements



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Response to ellisonz (Reply #97)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 12:13 AM

101. The only reason I had to state that

was because of what you posted in the first place.

On 29 November 1947, the United Nations General Assembly adopted a resolution recommending the adoption and implementation of a plan to resolve the Arab-Jewish conflict by partitioning Palestine into two states, one Arab and one Jewish, and the City of Jerusalem. Each state would comprise three major sections, linked by extraterritorial crossroads; the Arab state would also have an enclave at Jaffa. The Jews would get 56% of the land, of which most was in the Negev Desert; their area would contain 498,000 Jews and 407,000 Arabs. The Palestinian Arabs would get 43% of the land, which had a population of 725,000 Arabs and 10,000 Jews. In consideration of its religious significance, the Jerusalem area, including Bethlehem, with 100,000 Jews and an equal number of Palestinian Arabs, was to become a Corpus separatum, to be administered by the UN. The Jewish leadership accepted the partition plan, without reservation, as "the indispensable minimum," glad to gain international recognition but sorry that they did not receive more.

I'd say the UN had a huge part to play in this. And we, the US, were the UN in 1947. Now I will say that the international assistance to Israel in the forms of arms and money was insubstantial in the 48 war - in fact, the British seemed to support the Arab league moreso than Israel. I never said we held their hands and walked them into Israel. I simply asked glacier if ever people in Israel regretted their decision to return and create a state. I'd certainly be asking myself that question if I were an Israeli. We all do that kind of soul-searching in such a crisis which has lasted so long.

There's no doubt they valiantly fought their own battles from then until now.

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Response to ellisonz (Reply #73)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 01:29 AM

112. By posting the TOS, are you claiming it's hate speech to say the Palestinians were expelled?

Just curious, but have you ever read 'The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem Revisited'?

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #112)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 01:48 AM

116. I'm saying it's hate speech to advocate that Israel should have never existed...

...because it's just too much trouble and that Jews and Israelis worldwide should regret the creation of the State of Israel for causing such trouble. I fail to see the substantiative difference between such an argument and advocacy for the destruction of the State of Israel, which is expressly defined in the Terms of Service as bigoted hate speech.

I have not read such a book. But I would gamble that it is a revisionist history based on the use of "Revisited" and am somewhat familiar with the basic revisionist arguments. I have read other histories. I again feel compelled to repeat, I did not state that there were no expulsions, but rather that this was not official Israeli policy, and that although it may have been de facto policy of some elements in some places, that it was not the most significant factor in "the Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem," and that this cannot be understood without major appreciation of the military events as they unfolded.

I think too many people are too fast and loose with using terms such as "ethnic cleansing" and "genocide" in this regard. If these terms were liberally applied, every national power in every war in human history would be guilty of such crimes, they have very specific meanings in regard to intent. Consider the UN Convention on Genocide Article II:

In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.


Nowhere is it stated that taking territory as part of a military conflict is genocide, and I still would await any presentation of documentary proof that Israel sought to commit genocide as defined by the UN Convention on Genocide as there was no intent to destroy, rather the intent was to defend and secure the State of Israel.

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Response to ellisonz (Reply #116)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 03:14 AM

119. Wow man

"I'm saying it's hate speech to advocate that Israel should have never existed...


...because it's just too much trouble and that Jews and Israelis worldwide should regret the creation of the State of Israel for causing such trouble. I fail to see the substantiative difference between such an argument and advocacy for the destruction of the State of Israel, which is expressly defined in the Terms of Service as bigoted hate speech."

You and I are not going to get along. Like Skeletor and He-Man. Like Sark and Flynn. Like Spongebob and Squidworth.

I never said that Israel should never have existed. Israel existed 2000 years ago and it was conquered by the Romans. "Should" has nothing to do with it. You have a super bad habit of putting words into people's mouths.

It did exist, it was conquered, it didn't exist again until 1948. Now it exists. I'm saying that the UN, the US, shouldn't have had a hand or a role in it. If they revisited their homeland, conquered it, and won, great. We shouldn't have said it was "ok."

Now, here's a TOS lesson for you:

"It is the responsibility of all DU members to participate in a manner that promotes a positive atmosphere and encourages good discussions among a diverse community of people holding a broad range of center-to-left viewpoints." Members who demonstrate a pattern of disruptive behavior over time and end up getting too many of their posts hidden by the jury (measured by raw number or percentage) may be found to be in violation of our Terms of Service. If you seem to be ruining this website for a large proportion of our visitors, if we think the community as a whole would be better off without you here, if you are constantly wasting the DU Administrators' time, if you seem to oppose the mission of DU, or if the DU Administrators just don't like you, we will revoke your posting privileges. Remember: DU is supposed to be fun — don't make it suck.



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Response to AldoLeopold (Reply #59)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 09:21 PM

84. Thanks for the question

 

My wife says that there is a faction of Jews that think the State of Israel is illegal, but her and her family are staunch supporters and are adament about the right of Israel to exist and have never expressed any regret about the establishment of the Israeli State.

I actually met my wife while I was still in the US Army in 73 shortly after the end of the Yom Kippur War, she was in the IDF and we fell instantly in love and the rest is history.
And no offense taken.

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Response to glacierbay (Reply #84)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 10:57 PM

89. Thank you for understanding

To be clear, I'm not advocating the destruction of the Israeli State. That is their home now. Its too late for any of that kind of horrible nonsense and that kind of horrible nonsense has happened to the Jewish People far too many times. We're going to all have to find a way through this by means of compromise and hopefully peace in time. If you think about it, throughout history people generally have been more in favor of forced relocation of Jews, so that we're sitting here, trying to find a way to peacefully make sure everyone is relatively happy - well its a far cry from the holocaust and the Tsarist/Stalinist relocations and pogroms. Its the only reason I can find for some hope here.

I actually did not know about that small faction you referred to, so I learned something new today. Which is why I asked.

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Response to AldoLeopold (Reply #89)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 11:32 PM

94. BTW,

 

welcome to DU. I agree that both parties have to compromise to attain true peace, my lovely wife even agrees that Hamas and Israel need to sit down and hammer out an agreement that benefits both parties and benefits the whole region.
I look forward to reading more of your thoughtful posts, you even have the attention of my wife, which is a difficult thing to do, Kudos to you.

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Response to glacierbay (Reply #94)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 11:53 PM

98. Well she's too kind

Not exactly my finest moment of internet forum posting. I regret losing my temper with ellison or whatever his name is. I hope her family is well. I've learned enough about the people of Israel that they are by and large kind, loving and extremely thoughtful people themselves - they certainly don't deserve all of this horror.

Its just land, after all. Not very good land at that since the Romans deforested it building their biremes and triremes. Used to be oaks there as far as the eye can see. A lot of the problem here is poverty, which I, and others more learned than I on this subject, have asserted is the root cause of much of the hate from the Palestinian side and in general throughout the middle-east. I think perhaps a carefully monitored system of large-scale international financial aid and rebuilding such as in Lebanon might be more fruitful here than taking up arms. I could be wrong though. Too much of it might be used to buy arms...though hopefully it would eventually result in prosperity for the Palestinian people.

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Response to AldoLeopold (Reply #98)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 12:08 AM

99. She's been in constant contact with her family

 

and so far, everyone is ok. We've both experienced the horrors of war, Me-Vietnam, her-the PLO terror attacks and her stint in the IDF during the Yom Kippur War, so we have some unique insight on what needs to be done.
My wife thinks your idea of a carefully monitered system of large scale internation finacial aid and rebuilding is one of the best ideas she's heard yet.
She is sickened by all the violence itn the ME and wishes it would stop.
Execellent post.

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Response to glacierbay (Reply #99)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 12:33 AM

103. High Praise Indeed and I thank you and your wife for the welcome :)

I dunno if the aid would work, but its worth a try at this point. We'll take some hits from it. Undoubtedly, some of it will be used for terrorism and to harm our people and the Israeli people and the Knesset would throw a fit. But i can't help but wondering if the Arab Spring was just in the countries we have seen or beyond. Its the internet I think, that will make the difference. Perhaps if we can overcome Palestinian pride and appeal to their young people to accept money in this case to open up their own businesses, to have an international financial presence of some significance, they can build something that will create a prosperity which will overcome the horror.

Probably a fool's dream, but its worth a try. We give Israel roughly $8 billion a year in aid, so I suggest we give Palestine an equal amount at least for the foreseeable future.

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Response to AldoLeopold (Reply #103)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 12:42 AM

106. Although

I think it might be better if we involve the whole international community, as many nations as we can, to raise the $8 billion. I don't think it coming from the US alone would be...productive.

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Response to AldoLeopold (Reply #103)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 12:50 AM

108. Any things better than what's happening now

 

And don't sell yourself short, we need innovative ideas and yours is a good one.

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Response to Lionessa (Reply #27)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 02:13 PM

34. +1000!

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Response to Lionessa (Reply #27)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 04:54 PM

60. +1000

 

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Response to Lionessa (Reply #27)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 06:16 PM

67. Bullies??

Seriously? Israel is defending itself. It is being bombarded with rockets on a daily basis. If Palestine or Hamas want to be treated fairly, then they need to stop with the terrorist attacks. No one is a winner in this scenario. Both sides suffer.

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Response to cabot (Reply #67)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 06:19 PM

68. Parroting that old right wing rant only shows

 

your unwillingness to look at realities and the ease with which your are lead by the nose.

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Response to Lionessa (Reply #68)


Response to cabot (Reply #70)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 08:51 PM

82. You're an anti-Arab racist. Your unwilling to acknowledge that Palestine is being bombing says

all I need to about you.

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Response to Lionessa (Reply #20)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 01:49 PM

22. you have really low standards of conduct

is it really that unreasonable to say "hey could you guys stop trying to kill us" before sitting down with them?

edit: even now Israel has been allowing tons of supplies into Gaza, the flotillas were not about helping the Palestinians they were publicity stunts.

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Response to Mosby (Reply #22)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 02:01 PM

28. But Israel isn't held to the same request,

 

that's what wrong. Many die in Palestine daily because of the blockade, and yet it's not part of the pre-conditions?????

How is it that so many otherwise observant, fair, thinking Democrats can be so willfully blind and obtuse when it comes to Israel.

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Response to Lionessa (Reply #28)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 02:07 PM

32. Maybe because Israel has been constantly attacked and terrorized

 

since their inception in 1948, maybe because a certain Mr. Hitler tried to wipe out the Jewish race in WWII, maybe because the Jewish people are constantly persecuted.
Think maybe that could have something to do with it.

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Response to glacierbay (Reply #32)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 02:14 PM

35. You reap what you sow.

 

Israel was born of terrorism.
I have no sympathy for Israel anymore, it has long since been overwhelmed by hatred of it's policies in Palestine as well as those within it's borders.

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Response to Lionessa (Reply #35)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 02:16 PM

37. Yep

 

you are living up to my expectations. Not even Pres. Obama agrees with you on Israel.

"There's not a country on earth that would tolerate missiles raining down on its citizens from outside its borders," Mr. Obama said. "We are fully supportive of Israel's right to defend itself from missiles landing on peoples' homes."

http://m.cbsnews.com/fullstory.rbml?catid=57551659&feed_id=30&videofeed=null

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Response to glacierbay (Reply #37)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 06:19 PM

69. Don't feed the anti-semites

Israel is plain evil in their eyes. Screw them. I'm comfortable knowing Israel has gay rights, has Arabs in the Knesset. Israel is far more inclusive than Arab states.

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Response to Lionessa (Reply #35)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 06:26 PM

72. Exactly.

As Israel systemically wipes Palestine off the face of the earth, they scream bloody murder at the thought of Iran wanting to do the same thing to them. Imagine if the colors were reversed.

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Response to bunnies (Reply #72)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 06:33 PM

74. Wars have consequences...

...should we look at Jewish land-ownership throughout the Muslim world as well? I means surely 1 million Arab and North African Jews must have owned a fair deal of land?

The War of 1948 happened - the armies of 5 Arab States failed in their attempt to destroy the state of Israel - you can either accept that course of events or you can deny it and blame the Jews for defending themselves. The State of Israel will never be wiped from the face of the Earth. Your assertion that "Israel systemically wipes Palestine off the face of the earth" is complete and utter nonsense that has no basis in historical fact and is rejected by mainstream Western historical analysis.

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Response to ellisonz (Reply #74)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 07:19 PM

77. The map lies?

Is Israel still settling in what little scraps of land the Palestinians have left? Seems to me that Israel wont be done until theres no Palestinian land at all. They take it, they settle it, they wall it off, they clear it & the kill its inhabitants. I'd call that wiping of the face of the earth.

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Response to bunnies (Reply #77)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 08:13 PM

79. The map is designed to support a certain political opinion.

You agree with that opinion, but it's not without objections.

Seems to me that Israel wont be done until theres no Palestinian land at all. They take it, they settle it, they wall it off, they clear it & the kill its inhabitants.


Because no Arab has ever tried to kill an Israeli? It takes two to tango. shrug:

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Response to Lionessa (Reply #28)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 02:29 PM

42. No one is dying because of the blockade

that's just you engaging in ridiculous hyperbole. Thousands of tons of goods go in and out of Gaza every month.

If terror attacks had not originated from Gaza, plus 12,000 rockets fired into Israel over the past 12 years there would not be any blockade.

Many Palestinians in Gaza receive top notch FREE health care in Israel, because Israel has universal health care, something that all the American's on this board don't even have.

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Response to Mosby (Reply #42)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 02:35 PM

43. Oh it's you.

 

'nuff said.

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Response to Lionessa (Reply #43)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 02:37 PM

44. Back atcha. nt.

 

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Response to Lionessa (Reply #10)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 06:14 PM

66. Let aid through and let Israel's right to exist be acknowledged

Sounds fair. It is hard to negotiate when the other side says you shouldn't even exist.

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Response to glacierbay (Reply #4)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 06:13 PM

65. Agreed

Hamas needs to recognize Israel's right to exist before any negotiations or capitulations are to be made.

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Response to John2 (Reply #3)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 01:05 PM

6. what do you mean by

"but the peopel support them"

It is their government believe it or not.

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Response to John2 (Reply #3)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 01:32 PM

14. Like I said, each persons "truths" are formed from their PoV

You PoV is one favorable to the Israeli's.

Other's PoV is favorable to the Palestinians and they would tell you Israel's government is the problem.

Neither of you is lying, you just see it from very different angles and therefore fit the facts to fit that PoV.

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Response to John2 (Reply #3)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 08:44 PM

81. Hamas drops call for destruction of Israel from manifesto

First of all, I doubt even Hamas is unified on the rocket fire, not just Palestinians. Hamas doesn't seem to be a coherent government or military entity in the way the US and Israel(and their armies) are. I don't think you can have any kind of stable government when everyone lives in such conditions.

Secondly, the manifesto in question was from a bygone era. Read this:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/jan/12/israel

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Response to John2 (Reply #3)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 12:40 AM

104. Respectfully disagree....

And please do not get all upset with me. Both sides are to blame. If you look up the history of Israeli leader's comments you will find just as many about destroying Arabs and the Palestinians. Our media is complicit in not covering this....though some such comments have gotten out the past few days. Hamas has not always been in charge of Palestine. Various leaders of various groups on both sides have played into the aggression.

Right now Israel is saying they must defend themselves against Palestine. Against Syria(and yes, the leadership there are a bunch of butchers and need to go...but are we to assume Israel is telling us the truth about what is happening across their border in this situation?) They must defend themselves against Iran. How many countries or groups ultimately will Israel be just "defending itself" against before they might have to shoulder just a little bit of the blame?

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Response to Marrah_G (Reply #1)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 01:02 PM

5. And some of us say it's both.

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Response to Iggo (Reply #5)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 01:32 PM

15. Yes- and some say it's both

That is in fact my own opinion. I see the wrong done on both sides.

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Response to Marrah_G (Reply #15)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 02:40 PM

45. It's not hard to find the bad in either side.


The Palestinians should be allowed a homeland just like the Israelis have, but they need to stop firing rockets for good. The Israelis have to acknowledge the Palestinians and remove their settlers from the the West Bank.

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Response to R. Daneel Olivaw (Reply #45)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 02:47 PM

46. I agree

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Response to R. Daneel Olivaw (Reply #45)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 02:54 PM

48. Agreed. nt.

 

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Response to Marrah_G (Reply #1)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 02:53 PM

47. Oddly, Turkey is thought to favour Israel in general

and for years Israel claimed that its treaties with this Islamic* state showed how open minded it was.

Then Israel detained a Turkish ship carrying humanitarian aid to Gaza ...

______________________________________

*Note; Turkey is actually a secular state with many Muslims.

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Response to intaglio (Reply #47)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 03:11 PM

56. Bingo. nt

PB

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Response to Purveyor (Original post)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 01:05 PM

7. .

And somewhere some kurdish people thinking the same about Turkey.

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Response to Purveyor (Original post)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 01:09 PM

8. More leaders need to speak thusly the truth about Israel

 

and quit patting it on the back for enslaving and terrorizing an entire populace for the acts of a few.

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Response to Lionessa (Reply #8)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 01:41 PM

19. Then that entire population should

 

demand that the "few" stop the terror attacks.

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Response to glacierbay (Reply #19)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 01:51 PM

23. Israel, like the USA, is a bully and

 

I have no problem when either are harassed by those they oppress.

If I was confined to my home, my property was being encroached upon, my access to food, medicine, daily needs is cut off, my orchards on what is left of my property are being burned, and for every act of frustrated teenager down the street, the entire neighborhood is bombarded and gassed, more land is taken, more restrictions on getting what the rest of the neighborhood might need.....

I simply cannot find the way to give a shit about a few tiny little blasts in Israel compared to the death, disenfranchisement, and outright theft Israel rains down upon Palestine.

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Response to Lionessa (Reply #23)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 01:54 PM

25. A few tiny blasts?

 

Yeah, tell that to the dead Israeli's.
You have a nice day.

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Response to glacierbay (Reply #25)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 02:03 PM

30. Comparatively to the bombardment and blockades,

 

the damage and death caused by Palestine is "tiny".

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Response to Lionessa (Reply #30)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 02:09 PM

33. Once again

 

maybe Hamas needs to stop firing rockets into Israel and then Israel will stop firing into the Gaza Strip.

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Response to glacierbay (Reply #33)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 02:16 PM

36. Once again, you're either intentionally or

 

ignorantly refusing to deal with the realities Israel has forced on Gaza.

Bless your heart, and good day.

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Response to Lionessa (Reply #36)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 02:20 PM

38. Israel forced on Gaza?

 

Maybe Hamas should stop firing rockets into Israel, renounce their intention of the total destruction of Israel, think that might help?

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Response to glacierbay (Reply #38)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 03:27 PM

57. The funny thing about causality...

...is how it can change according to your point-of-view. From an article by Israeli activist Uri Avnery:

HOW DID it start? Stupid question.

Conflagrations along the Gaza Strip don’t start. They are just a continuous chain of events, each claimed to be in “retaliation” for the previous one. Action is followed by reaction, which is followed by retaliation, which is followed by …

This particular event “started” with the firing from Gaza of an anti-tank weapon at a partially armored jeep on the Israeli side of the border fence. It was described as retaliation for the killing of a boy in an air attack some days earlier. But probably the timing of the action was accidental – the opportunity just presented itself.


The problem here is that it's all-too-easy for proponents of one side or the other to create a scenario where it's always the other side that's the original inciter, and where one's own side is always "acting in self-defense." Thus, from the pro-Israeli viewpoint most common in the U.S., and which you have expressed above, everything was going just fine in Gaza (ignoring the decades of oppression caused by the Israeli occupation, and intensified in recent years) until Hamas, stirred by nothing other than inherent hatred of Jews, decided to launch unprovoked rocket attacks. In other parts of the world, I'm sure, the viewpoint is that the starting point is always Israeli oppression, ignoring the Arab military threats and homegrown terror attacks that made Israelis conclude that their opponents wouldn't be satisfied until Israel had been "driven into the sea." In either case, one's own side is always right, the other side is always pure evil, and everything one's own side does is "self-defense"...and thus everything is permissible.

As far as I'm concerned, the only way forward is for each side to abandon their claim to pure innocence, admit that the other side has legitimate claims as well, and work toward a fair solution based on that assumption. Until that happens, though, we should probably expect atrocity upon atrocity upon atrocity in the future, with each justified as "defending ourselves," and insisting that everything would be fine if it wasn't for the other side's malevolence and aggression.


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Response to Lionessa (Reply #23)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 02:20 PM

39. The irony here...

...is that those who are most hard-line pro-Israeli, if forced to live in the conditions under which Israel continues to hold Palestinians, would likely be the first ones throwing rocks, if not bombs, at their oppressors.

And, conversely, I suspect that those most sympathetic to the Palestinian cause, if they had to live in a place where they experienced terror attacks against them from a minority that considered itself oppressed, would be calling for the complete subjugation, if not the utter obliteration of that minority, and denying that said minority's claims of oppression had any validity whatsoever.

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Response to regnaD kciN (Reply #39)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 02:23 PM

40. I am certainly not of the second class as

 

suggest might be the case, but I do agree that a majority of each class would likely respond as you suggest., though I believe the second group would come to their senses in short order, where the first group would more than likely dig in hard as they seem much more reactive and entrenched in their righteousness regardless of reality such that if the reality and the impression both deserved righteousness (as is the case currently in Gaza), they'd really really dig in deeper even still.

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Response to Lionessa (Reply #23)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 05:14 PM

61. Maybe the USA should stop giving Apartheid Israel free Money, Weapons and Intel

Even Petraeus pointed out they are not helping:

The enduring hostilities between Israel and some of its neighbors present distinct challenges to our ability to advance our interests in the AOR . Israeli-Palestinian tensions often flare into violence and large-scale armed confrontations. The conflict foments anti-American sentiment, due to a perception of U.S. favoritism for Israel. Arab anger over the Palestinian question limits the strength and depth of U.S. partnerships with governments and peoples in the AOR and weakens the legitimacy of moderate regimes in the Arab world. Meanwhile, al-Qaeda and other militant groups exploit that anger to mobilize support. The conflict also gives Iran influence in the Arab world through its clients, Lebanese Hizballah and Hamas.

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Response to Lionessa (Reply #8)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 01:51 PM

24. I found this on youtube a couple of days ago...

"British Jewish Zionist MP Gerald Kaufman, in a speech given to the House of Commons, and after qualifying his Jewish Zionist credentials, equates the actions and rhetoric of the Israeli state and its State actors with the actions and rhetoric of the Nazis."


&sns=tw

TYY

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Response to TeeYiYi (Reply #24)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 02:04 PM

31. You should post this as an OP.

 

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Response to Lionessa (Reply #31)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 02:24 PM

41. You're welcome to. ...nt

TYY

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Response to Lionessa (Reply #31)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 06:39 PM

75. yeah, that's just what we need. More heat. less light.

Comparing what's happening in Gaza and the WB- awful as it is, oppression as it is- to the Nazis is simply factually ridiculous. And for obvious reasons, it's ugly.

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Response to TeeYiYi (Reply #24)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 12:48 AM

107. Wow.

 

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Response to Purveyor (Original post)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 01:11 PM

9. Erdogan would not have made that statement if only Israel had apologized for...

...the attack on the Mavi Marmara and offered to compensate the victims killed.

By doing that, Israel soured and extremely important relationship not only with Turkey but with NATO. Israel wants to be in NATO badly. They're not going to get it any time soon.

They wouldn't have to deal with flak like this if they, frankly, hadn't been such enormously entitled dicks about the whole thing.

And now it comes back in the form of criticism like this.

It doesn't hurt Netanyahu- he loves this sort of isolationism. Without an "Israel against the world" mentality, the political structure of his party and Avigdor Lieberman's political party can't function.

PB

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Response to Poll_Blind (Reply #9)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 01:23 PM

12. He is such a hypocrite, that would not have changed anything

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Response to Purveyor (Original post)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 01:21 PM

11. Kurds are a different matter, though.

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Response to DavidDvorkin (Reply #11)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 03:35 PM

58. They are a different matter, but they should be entitled to their own homeland as well.


If not a country then an autonomous region that has a distinct cultural difference like Quebec.

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Response to R. Daneel Olivaw (Reply #58)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 06:00 AM

120. Nobody powerful in that part of the world would want freedom for the Kurdish people.

The difference between Kurds and Palestinians is that the land the Kurds want for an independent state include land from Turkey, Syria, Iraq, and some segments of Iran bordering northern Iraq. None of those countries will tolerate a move towards an independent Kurdistan because it would stoke secessionist attitudes among Kurds living in any other bordering country. This is why Saddam gassed the Kurds; Assad sent army units to northern Syria in his current civil war to police the Kurds; and why Turkey has fought a homegrown guerrilla resistance in southern Turkey against Kurds for years.

Palestinians, for sure, are an oppressed group under the boot of a powerful regional military powerhouse, but they would be in truly dire straits if they had as many regional enemies as the Kurds. Most leaders in this part of the world are hypocritical about condemnations of Israeli actions in the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

They put on a good show of support for Palestinians; it's a good way to distract the locals from local problems and local oppression, but if you mentioned Kurdistan instead of Palestine, all of a sudden they adopt the same policy positions as far right wing nut jobs in Israel do: Their land belongs to us.

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Response to Purveyor (Original post)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 01:24 PM

13. That kind of statement coming from him is the worst kind of hypocrisy

The Armenian massacre which he still vehemently denies and the ongoing illegal occupation of portions Cyprus come easily to mind.

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Response to ProgressiveProfessor (Reply #13)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 01:34 PM

16. Meh, you bring up something that happened 100 years ago because you have no argument now.

Simple as that.



PB

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Response to Poll_Blind (Reply #16)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 01:40 PM

18. Turkey's illegal occupation of part of Cyprus is ongoing today

And the Armenian genocide is still quite real to many people.

If Turkey owned up to its historical crimes against humanity and acknowledged and was making an effort to leave Cyprus, then they would have some standing. Until then, they are nothing but lying hypocrites.

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Response to ProgressiveProfessor (Reply #18)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 01:55 PM

26. Sure, sure. And the Native Americans are still getting a bum deal from the Federal Govt.

You can't address the topic at hand and so you have to desperately throw everything else into the mix possible.

That's FAIL right out of the gates.

PB

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Response to Poll_Blind (Reply #26)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 08:35 PM

80. The topic is the Turkish PM's statement...which I have pointed out is quite hypociritcal

That is not a fail, unless you consider the truth a failure

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Response to Poll_Blind (Reply #16)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 02:58 PM

49. How about Turkish repression of the Kurds?

is that current enough for you?

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Response to hack89 (Reply #49)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 03:03 PM

53. Are you attempting to justify the actions of the Kurdistan Workers’ Party?



PB

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Response to Poll_Blind (Reply #53)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 03:07 PM

55. No - I am talking about the day to day discrimination Kurds face in Turkey.

Just like Hamas, PKK violence is not justified.

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Response to Purveyor (Original post)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 02:58 PM

50. I find the total vilification of either side pretty interesting,

considering both sides have done horrible things.

Whenever you hear someone talking about "Those innocent (Israelis or Palestinians)," it's likely total garbage.

Hamas are terrorists. Israelis steal land without care of how it effects those around them. We should stay out of it, and Turkey should too.

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Response to Purveyor (Original post)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 03:00 PM

51. Hmmm, and what Turkey did to the Armenians and is doing to the Kurds is what? People in glass

Houses should not throw stones

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Response to still_one (Reply #51)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 03:05 PM

54. They don't throw stones. They use Israeli drones.

Nothing like cool equipment.

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Response to Purveyor (Original post)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 03:03 PM

52. Kill a Kurd lately?

And how were you planning to use those drones you bought from Israel?

My Turkish Delight is their bottomless hypocrisy.

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Response to Purveyor (Original post)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 05:47 PM

62. Excuse me if I don't take the words of a genocide-denier

to heart. Maybe when he acknowledges the slaughter his people committed against the Armenians, Assyrians and Pontic Greeks, his little pearls of wisdom might carry more weight. Until then, he can fuck off.

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Response to Purveyor (Original post)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 06:03 PM

64. Didn't Turkey shell Syria?

... after a few stray shells from Syria landed in Turkey?

Pot, meet kettle.

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Response to Purveyor (Original post)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 07:10 PM

76. K&R

''Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent.'' ~Isaac Asimov


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Response to Purveyor (Original post)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 07:19 PM

78. doesn't Turkey go after its own citizens?

the Kurds?

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Response to dlwickham (Reply #78)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 10:34 PM

86. Why, Turkey most feared enemy is in complete disorder...

And as long as Greece is in complete disorder, Turkey will have a free hand elsewhere. Remember, Turkey's greatest threat is from Greece, the Greeks claim large parts of Turkey (Claims which Turkey rejects). I do not want to go into the various claims (the Greeks claim Western Turkey was mostly Greece prior to the 1920s war between Greece and Turkey, the Turks claim it was mostly Turkish, most people who have studied the situation, give the nod to the Greeks, but the Turks won that war).

More on The Greek-Turkish war of 1919-1922:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Turkish_War_(1919%E2%80%931922)
http://www.icrc.org/eng/resources/documents/misc/5gke3d.htm

Thus the present situation in Greece, where you have at least 1/3 of the population in almost violent opposition to its own government, means no threat from Greece. It is to late for the Greek Government to try to unite the country with an attack on Turkey (or defense from a Turkish attack, depend how you would want to look at it), thus Turkey has no fears as to Greece.

The Greeks also seem to have been the main supporters of the Kurds in Turkey. Thus the financial crisis in Turkey has put restraints on the financial support for the Turkish Kurds, thus less a threat (The present Government of Iraq has only marginal control over its own Kurdish territory, but the Iraqi Kurds, with the withdraw of all Greek Support, have become dependent on US Support, something it will NOT risk by supporting the Kurds in Turkey, at least openly).

While the Armenians do not like the Turks, they are presently allied with Russia, and will not do anything Russia will not support. Georgia (The former Soviet State NOT the Southern US State) is difficult to determine. Russia fought Georgia over some territory presently helled by parts of Georgia that want to succeed from Georgia, and for all practical purposes that has tied up all forces in the Caucasus (Russian, Georgian, South Ossetian forces etc). I

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_(country)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgian_parliamentary_election,_2012

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_South_Ossetia_War

Iran has other things to worry about (i.e. a US or Israeli attack), thus Turkey has no threats on any of its borders (Even Syria not a threat, it is to busy in a Civil War). Turkey's hands has NEVER been this free, even in the days of the Ottoman Empire.

Turkey does not know how long this will last, but it will end some time, but in the mean time, it is free to do want it whats to do.

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Response to Purveyor (Original post)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 09:09 PM

83. The US should not support the rulers in Turkey.

It is scandalous that this government is considered such a good ally of the US. It is expansionist, committing aggression against Syria - for that reason its protestations about Gaza ring hollow.

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Response to Purveyor (Original post)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 12:09 AM

100. Turkey is a terrorist state by what they're doing to the Kurds!!

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Response to Purveyor (Original post)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 12:17 AM

102. Israel elects war criminals as leaders

And we're suppose to believe they're the good guys? Sharon was responsible for the mass murder, torture and rape of refugees and Israel still elected him Prime Minister.

I'll never understand why left wing progressives support right wing war mongers, but then again most Israel supporters are neo-cons with a few socially liberal views.

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Response to ForgoTheConsequence (Reply #102)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 12:41 AM

105. Riiiiiiiiiiiiiight

 

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Response to glacierbay (Reply #105)


Response to glacierbay (Reply #105)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 01:35 AM

113. Yitzak Shamir ring a bell?

as a member of Irgun he actively participated in the assassinations of both UN negotiator Folke Bernadotte and Lord Moyne, British minister for Middle East affairs

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Response to ForgoTheConsequence (Reply #102)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 12:56 AM

109. I'm a scientist

So show me your proof. Give me a link and it had better be from a reliable, independent source of some repute. It doesn't have to be western, but it does have to be scholarly.

So give it up. Show me.

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Response to AldoLeopold (Reply #109)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 01:01 AM

111. A scientist? right.

The BBC did a documentary on it.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/panorama/1390979.stm

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2002/jan/25/israelandthepalestinians.lebanon

http://english.ahram.org.eg/NewsContent/2/8/53050/World/Region/Remembering-Sabra--Shatila-The-death-of-their-worl.aspx

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/israel-misled-u-s-diplomats-during-sabra-and-shatila-massacre-1.465925




He had to step down as Minister of Defense because of this, its not a fucking secret.



From a New York Times Op-ed this year.

In 1983, an Israeli investigative commission concluded that Israeli leaders were “indirectly responsible” for the killings and that Ariel Sharon, then the defense minister and later prime minister, bore “personal responsibility” for failing to prevent them.


This summer, at the Israel State Archives, I found recently declassified documents that chronicle key conversations between American and Israeli officials before and during the 1982 massacre. The verbatim transcripts reveal that the Israelis misled American diplomats about events in Beirut and bullied them into accepting the spurious claim that thousands of “terrorists” were in the camps. Most troubling, when the United States was in a position to exert strong diplomatic pressure on Israel that could have ended the atrocities, it failed to do so. As a result, Phalange militiamen were able to murder Palestinian civilians, whom America had pledged to protect just weeks earlier.


http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/17/opinion/a-preventable-massacre.html?pagewanted=all

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Response to ForgoTheConsequence (Reply #111)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 01:41 AM

115. Relax and give me a bit to look into this

Don't be so hostile. I never said I didn't believe you

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Response to ForgoTheConsequence (Reply #111)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 02:23 AM

117. Right, so Sharon is going to have to take a trip to the Hague

I've seen enough. Even if he's a fatted calf, we're going to have to get to the bottom of this. Too many questions, and not enough answers. So Reagan knew, bitched Sharon out, and yet nothing. Must have interfered with his afternoon naps.

He's 84, but Sharon and everyone else involved must answer for this. Fair's fair. I'm with you on this, and hopefully it will help solve this entire problem.

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Response to AldoLeopold (Reply #109)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 01:36 AM

114. look up Yitzak Shamir and then get back to me mmmmkay n/t

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #114)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 02:36 AM

118. I don't have to

I know he was a dick. Bush Jr. was a dick. Nixon was a dick (tricky).

I'm basically an anti-humanist Malthusian dick because my little dog Sophie was left in a crate in a closet for a week while her former "owner" went off to the Bahamas with her boyfriend. No food, no water and she ate her own feces to stay alive. Now she can't be away from people for more than a few minutes without wetting herself. We all have demons and we all hate. You think the Israelis don't? You want to set up a straw man, say "these guys are no angels so screw them?" No shit, Sherlock. We're all demons in disguise so spare me your righteous anger.

The man had his entire family killed by anti-semites. That changes a man, doesn't it then? What did someone say in an earlier post? You reap what you sow?

Saying the guy did this, or killed that guy with Mossad isn't reason enough to condemn this region, the Palestinians, or the Israelis to this level of continued violence. The average Israeli is a decent chap. Certainly no worse than the wretches I see on a daily basis here in Arkansas. The average Palestinian is a decent chap. DEFINITELY no worse than your average Texas republican.

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