HomeLatest ThreadsGreatest ThreadsForums & GroupsMy SubscriptionsMy Posts
DU Home » Latest Threads » Forums & Groups » Main » Latest Breaking News (Forum) » Catholic Church To Lose H...

Sun Oct 14, 2012, 12:41 AM

Catholic Church To Lose Historic Property Tax Exemption In Italy

Source: RT

RT
Published: 13 October, 2012, 11:38



The Basilica of St. Bartholomew, located on the
island Isola Tiberina in Rome. (AFP/Vincenzo Pinto)


Italy’s Catholic Church will be forced to pay taxes starting in 2013 after the EU pressured the country’s government to pass a controversial law stripping the Church of its historic property tax exemption.

­The Catholic Church in Italy is excluded from paying taxes on its land if at least a part of a Church property is used non-commercially – for instance, a chapel in a bed-and-breakfast.

"The regulatory framework will be definite by January 1, 2013 – the start of the fiscal year – and will fully respect the Community law," Italian premier Mario Monti's government said in a statement on Tuesday.

The move could net Italy revenues of 500 million to 2 billion euros annually across the country, municipal government associations said. The extra income from previously exempt properties in Rome alone – including hotels, restaurants and sports centers – could reach 25.5 million euros a year, La Repubblica daily newspaper reported.


Read more: http://rt.com/news/italy-church-tax-exemption-339/

63 replies, 10388 views

Reply to this thread

Back to top Alert abuse

Always highlight: 10 newest replies | Replies posted after I mark a forum
Replies to this discussion thread
Arrow 63 replies Author Time Post
Reply Catholic Church To Lose Historic Property Tax Exemption In Italy (Original post)
DeSwiss Oct 2012 OP
DURHAM D Oct 2012 #1
DeSwiss Oct 2012 #5
cstanleytech Oct 2012 #13
merrily Oct 2012 #20
pnwmom Oct 2012 #25
DURHAM D Oct 2012 #33
pnwmom Oct 2012 #38
adigal Oct 2012 #31
Yo_Mama Oct 2012 #48
DURHAM D Oct 2012 #50
Yo_Mama Oct 2012 #60
williesgirl Oct 2012 #2
DeSwiss Oct 2012 #7
aquart Oct 2012 #3
DeSwiss Oct 2012 #8
pnwmom Oct 2012 #26
DURHAM D Oct 2012 #34
pnwmom Oct 2012 #37
DURHAM D Oct 2012 #39
pnwmom Oct 2012 #43
DURHAM D Oct 2012 #44
pnwmom Oct 2012 #46
DURHAM D Oct 2012 #47
pnwmom Oct 2012 #53
Yo_Mama Oct 2012 #62
pnwmom Oct 2012 #63
freshwest Oct 2012 #4
DeSwiss Oct 2012 #9
Proletariatprincess Oct 2012 #6
DeSwiss Oct 2012 #10
davidpdx Oct 2012 #23
defacto7 Oct 2012 #11
DeSwiss Oct 2012 #12
Proletariatprincess Oct 2012 #15
canuckledragger Oct 2012 #14
johnlucas Oct 2012 #16
spiderpig Oct 2012 #17
idwiyo Oct 2012 #18
SunSeeker Oct 2012 #19
HankyDub Oct 2012 #21
Overseas Oct 2012 #22
condoleeza Oct 2012 #24
silvershadow Oct 2012 #27
OnlinePoker Oct 2012 #28
meow2u3 Oct 2012 #56
dipsydoodle Oct 2012 #29
hue Oct 2012 #30
UTUSN Oct 2012 #32
lonestarnot Oct 2012 #35
jhasp Oct 2012 #36
leftyohiolib Oct 2012 #40
valerief Oct 2012 #41
NC_Nurse Oct 2012 #42
joanbarnes Oct 2012 #45
Coyotl Oct 2012 #49
haikugal Oct 2012 #51
awake Oct 2012 #52
WilmywoodNCparalegal Oct 2012 #58
WilmywoodNCparalegal Oct 2012 #59
Arugula Latte Oct 2012 #54
RainDog Oct 2012 #55
Odin2005 Oct 2012 #57
LanternWaste Oct 2012 #61

Response to DeSwiss (Original post)

Sun Oct 14, 2012, 12:42 AM

1. I wish something that rational would happen in the US.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to DURHAM D (Reply #1)

Sun Oct 14, 2012, 12:54 AM

5. That alone would probably resolve the deficit. :-| n/t

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to DURHAM D (Reply #1)

Sun Oct 14, 2012, 01:22 AM

13. It very well could if certain pastors keep trying to challenge the IRS

over the rules that say they forfeit their tax free status if they insist on preaching from the pulpit on who to vote for.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to DURHAM D (Reply #1)

Sun Oct 14, 2012, 02:39 AM

20. No one can say "holiday" tree without being accused of warring on Christmas, Jesus and Christendom.

Imagine if we tried to take away the tax exemption.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to DURHAM D (Reply #1)

Sun Oct 14, 2012, 04:24 AM

25. In the US the tax system already excludes commercial property

from the religious tax exemption. The US does not give the Church a break on commercial properties like the one Italy till now has been giving.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to pnwmom (Reply #25)

Sun Oct 14, 2012, 10:01 AM

33. Depends on what county/state you live in.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to DURHAM D (Reply #33)

Sun Oct 14, 2012, 11:53 AM

38. There have been Federal SCOTUS rulings on this, so the state laws are in line. n/t

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to DURHAM D (Reply #1)

Sun Oct 14, 2012, 08:08 AM

31. I agree...if you talk politics from the pulpit

You lose tax exemptions.

Never happen here.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to DURHAM D (Reply #1)

Sun Oct 14, 2012, 05:01 PM

48. You don't understand

In the US, such properties are already taxed.

Italy is not taxing churches or convents or any actual church property used as such. It is going to tax COMMERCIAL property owned by the Italian church. The Catholic church owns entire housing developments, for pete's sake!

In other words, it is shifting to US law. In the US, such property is and has always been taxed.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Yo_Mama (Reply #48)

Sun Oct 14, 2012, 05:04 PM

50. That is just not true.

Commercial property is not always on the property tax rolls. It is up to the individual taxing authority.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to DURHAM D (Reply #50)

Mon Oct 15, 2012, 01:49 PM

60. Can you provide an example?

Just wondering.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to DeSwiss (Original post)

Sun Oct 14, 2012, 12:43 AM

2. Exactly what we should do. No tax exemption

Since they won't follow the law. Recd

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to williesgirl (Reply #2)

Sun Oct 14, 2012, 12:59 AM

7. And to be able to sell church property for non-payment of taxes.....

...would finally net ''the people'' a community good.

- And only after 2,000 years.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to DeSwiss (Original post)

Sun Oct 14, 2012, 12:47 AM

3. Do it here,baby!

Catholics won't be half as mad as the Mormons and Scientologists.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to aquart (Reply #3)

Sun Oct 14, 2012, 01:00 AM

8. And it's also one way to get Rmoney to pay taxes!

- Indirectly.....

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to aquart (Reply #3)

Sun Oct 14, 2012, 04:25 AM

26. We already have that system here. The new law in Italy applies

to commercial properties owned by religious entities. They are already taxed in the US.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to pnwmom (Reply #26)

Sun Oct 14, 2012, 10:02 AM

34. Where do you live that commercial properties

owned by churches are on the property tax rolls? You are implying that this is a federal law. It is not.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to DURHAM D (Reply #34)

Sun Oct 14, 2012, 11:31 AM

37. It was settled by the SCOTUS long ago that the exemption doesn't apply to commercial properties.

http://law.justia.com/constitution/us/amendment-01/05-tax-exemptions-of-religious-property.html

Tax Exemptions of Religious Property.—Every State and the District of Columbia provide for tax exemptions for religious institutions, and the history of such exemptions goes back to the time of our establishment as a polity. The only expression by a Supreme Court Justice prior to 1970 was by Justice Brennan, who deemed tax exemptions constitutional because the benefit conferred was incidental to the religious character of the institutions concerned.178 Then, in 1970, a nearly unanimous Court sustained a state exemption from real or personal property taxation of “property used exclusively for religious, educational or charitable purposes” owned by a corporation or association which was conducted exclusively for one or more of these purposes and did not operate for profit.179 The first prong of a two-prong argument saw the Court adopting Justice Brennan’s rationale. Using the secular purpose and effect test, Chief Justice Burger noted that the purpose of the exemption was not to single out churches for special favor; instead, the exemption applied to a broad category of associations having many common features and all dedicated to social betterment. Thus, churches as well as museums, hospitals, libraries, charitable organizations, professional associations, and the like, all non-profit, and all having a beneficial and stabilizing influence in community life, were to be encouraged by being treated specially in the tax laws. The primary effect of the exemptions was not to aid religion; the primary effect was secular and any assistance to religion was merely incidental.

____________________________

http://atheism.about.com/od/churchestaxexemptions/a/overview.htm

4. No Tax Exemptions for Commercial Activity
Tax exemptions are almost entirely restricted to those affairs which are religious rather than commercial in nature. Thus, there are numerous tax exemptions on property owned by churches and used for religious worship, but exemptions are normally denied on property used for commerce and business. The site of an actual church will be exempt, but the site of a church-owned shoe store will rarely, if ever, be exempt.

Court Cases:

Gibbons v. District of Columbia
Diffenderfer v. Central Baptist Church
The same is true for income from sales. Money a church receives from donations of members and from financial investments are normally treated as tax-exempt. On the other hand, money which a church receives from the sale of goods and services — even including goods like religious books and magazines — will normally have sales tax applied, though not income tax at the other end.

___________________________________________

Here is an example of the law in my state. The exemption applies to non-profits in general, not just churches, and it doesn't apply to property owned by non-profits but used for commercial purposes.

http://dor.wa.gov/docs/pubs/industspecific/nonprofit.pdf

Nonprofit organizations in the state of Washington may be eligible for an exemption from property tax. In most situations, nonprofit ownership is required to qualify for an exemption. In addition, the organization must conduct an activity specifically identified in the exemption laws.
The use of the property determines the exemption. Not all nonprofit organizations have a purpose and activity that entitles them to an exemption.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to pnwmom (Reply #37)

Sun Oct 14, 2012, 11:57 AM

39. That does not address commercial property

owned by the church but used for secular purposes (profits). It is up to the local taxing authority. The local taxing authority is easily influenced (some would say bribed) into leaving the strip centers, the 18 hole golf course, apartment complexes, and the boutique hotels off the property tax rolls.

That ruling also seems to expand the religious tax exemption to a whole new class of organizations. I am glad you posted that as I have always wondered when that whole exemption for property taxes was expanded to include a whole lot of entities that did not have "religious" affiliations. For example - I know of a local real estate business/large property owner who is exempt from property taxes because they are organized as a "not for profit".

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to DURHAM D (Reply #39)

Sun Oct 14, 2012, 03:35 PM

43. Did you read the other part of the post? It addresses the issue of taxation of commercial use of the

properties, and it applies to all states.

http://atheism.about.com/od/churchestaxexemptions/a/overview.htm

4. No Tax Exemptions for Commercial Activity
Tax exemptions are almost entirely restricted to those affairs which are religious rather than commercial in nature. Thus, there are numerous tax exemptions on property owned by churches and used for religious worship, but exemptions are normally denied on property used for commerce and business. The site of an actual church will be exempt, but the site of a church-owned shoe store will rarely, if ever, be exempt.

Court Cases:

Gibbons v. District of Columbia
Diffenderfer v. Central Baptist Church
The same is true for income from sales. Money a church receives from donations of members and from financial investments are normally treated as tax-exempt. On the other hand, money which a church receives from the sale of goods and services — even including goods like religious books and magazines — will normally have sales tax applied, though not income tax at the other end.

Can you, OTOH, show me an examples of states that officially EXEMPT commercially used property owned by religious groups from taxation -- as a matter of law, not error?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to pnwmom (Reply #43)

Sun Oct 14, 2012, 03:49 PM

44. It is an option.

Are you ignoring the fact that it leaves it up to the local taxing authority? It does not say they MUST be on the property tax rolls.

Where I live it simply is not. I am going to guess this is standard procedure in most of the country but you are lucky to live somewhere where the for profit/commercial church and charity owned properties are on the tax rolls.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to DURHAM D (Reply #44)

Sun Oct 14, 2012, 04:27 PM

46. Can you show me the law that applies where you live? That applies exemptions to all properties

owned by churches and other non-profits, even when the properties are used for commercial purposes?

Because the information I gave you says that this is a rare exception. Maybe you should be fighting this in your locality instead of assuming this is the way it's done everywhere.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to pnwmom (Reply #46)

Sun Oct 14, 2012, 04:31 PM

47. You are not listening or simply don't understand

that property tax decisions are left to the local taxing body. I am not sure what your point is but I am done.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to DURHAM D (Reply #47)

Sun Oct 14, 2012, 05:25 PM

53. I do understand. I also know that you've claimed, without evidence,

that your locality exempts ALL properties owned by religious entities, even if they're used for commercial purposes.

I've asked you to show me the local law that you're referring to and you haven't. Can you show me ANY law in ANY state or locality that exempts all property owned by religious institutions, whether it is used for religious or commercial purposes?

I doubt if there's any city in the US that is doing so well financially it would want to exempt any commercial property (owned by religious institutions) that it wasn't Constitutionally required to. But if you can prove otherwise, go ahead.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to pnwmom (Reply #53)

Mon Oct 15, 2012, 02:00 PM

62. There are constitutional issues with doing it

The law here is pretty well understood and pretty broadly applied.

Local taxing authorities can give exemptions on commercial property, but they normally do so to attract businesses in. In other words, they give an exemption for five or ten years (or a lower tax rate) in order to get a convention center built, or a business complex built, or move in a factory.

That's the use of local tax exemptions with which I am familiar. It's possible that some such arrangement could be made with a non-profit, but they rarely have enough money to make it worthwhile for the locality.

Technically, if a local tax authority were to decide to exempt commercial use property from taxation if it were owned by a church on a wholesale basis, it would be unconstitutional, and a suit would remove the exemption.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Yo_Mama (Reply #62)

Mon Oct 15, 2012, 06:21 PM

63. That's what I've been saying. Commercially used property gets taxed,

no matter whether it's owned by a profit-making company or a non-profit, like a Church.

The Supreme Court ruled on this long ago.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to DeSwiss (Original post)

Sun Oct 14, 2012, 12:53 AM

4. Since a lot of religious institutions are recieving tax dollars, they should pay.

The political advantage of foundations which the rich have hidden their wealth in and the church must end. They are destroying democratic institutions meant to serve everyone.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to freshwest (Reply #4)

Sun Oct 14, 2012, 01:06 AM

9. Of course they should!

They're nothing but a net drain on public resources. And it's clear that when they don't pay their bank notes they get foreclosed on. Which means if they don't pay their property taxes we could end up doing the same thing that banks do.

- And everyone knows they can do no wrong......

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to DeSwiss (Original post)

Sun Oct 14, 2012, 12:55 AM

6. Italy! Of all places to tax the Roman Catholic Church.....

I would have thought that Italy would be the last, not the first.
This is great news. I hope this idea spreads around the world. It is way past due.
Religious institutions should pay thier fair share in a civil society. NO more free rides for religion.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Proletariatprincess (Reply #6)

Sun Oct 14, 2012, 01:10 AM

10. Yes indeedy!

This could be the start of something BIGGGGG!!!!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Proletariatprincess (Reply #6)

Sun Oct 14, 2012, 04:19 AM

23. There is so much irony in that story the Pope had to change his underwear after hearing the news

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to DeSwiss (Original post)

Sun Oct 14, 2012, 01:10 AM

11. Yes, Yes, Yes

I'm going to buy a pizza to celebrate.

We need this here!!! There is more income in the church business than we can possibly imagine. That industry is hidden and unaccounted since the beginning. It's huge untouched and undocumented.

The only drawback I see is that there could be an unfortunate negotiating point where churches could want a say in government in return. That would be worse.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to defacto7 (Reply #11)

Sun Oct 14, 2012, 01:18 AM

12. GREAT PIZZA EXCUSE!!!

It has all the virtues I look for in a need-to-buy-a-pizza-excuse:



It's plausible.
It seems a noble gesture.
It's topped with mozzarella cheese.

- I wish you'd thought of it sooner!!!!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to defacto7 (Reply #11)

Sun Oct 14, 2012, 01:40 AM

15. They already have too much say in government.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to DeSwiss (Original post)

Sun Oct 14, 2012, 01:30 AM

14. Drip, drip...

It's about time.

& it WILL come to the U.S. eventually.

Engage in all out political warfare using church resources/personal/etc. ?

Tax the shit out their 'religious' scam as a result.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to DeSwiss (Original post)

Sun Oct 14, 2012, 01:44 AM

16. Shocking! Italy? Really?

Wow.
Didn't see that coming.

When they talk about the world's richest men on Forbes I know it's just the "official" list.
One of the world's richest men is the Pope of the Catholic Church himself.
The Vatican is the Roman Empire's nucleus.
John Lucas

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to DeSwiss (Original post)

Sun Oct 14, 2012, 02:03 AM

17. It's about time

I'm sick of any church exploiting people of minimal income for donations and then plastering their sorry asses on brocade cushions while enjoying tax exemptions we can't even dream of.

If you choose to believe, then go ahead and believe. But I have had it with religious scams. Just had it.

I grew up accompanying my grandma to a mainstream church where the first thing they pulled out was the collection plate. Were they there when someone needed help? Well, um..

Hypocrites.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to DeSwiss (Original post)

Sun Oct 14, 2012, 02:36 AM

18. K&R

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to DeSwiss (Original post)

Sun Oct 14, 2012, 02:38 AM

19. I've never understood how exempting churches complies with separation of church and state.

I mean, by excepting a church from taxes, my tax dollars are subsidizing that church. It's bullshit.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to DeSwiss (Original post)

Sun Oct 14, 2012, 02:49 AM

21. Nuke the Vatican

 

Jesus told me to say that.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to DeSwiss (Original post)

Sun Oct 14, 2012, 03:16 AM

22. K&R. Yes please!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to DeSwiss (Original post)

Sun Oct 14, 2012, 04:24 AM

24. Imagine what this would do in the US if this happened here

how churches here have escaped being taxed here is just beyond understanding.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to DeSwiss (Original post)

Sun Oct 14, 2012, 04:27 AM

27. I will gladly let them tax the churches here...Say, oh, a modest 10%? That way, they can pay for

those who don't tithe, which is how my tea party friends are telling me I'm supposed to get my care (through churches). Let the churches get their money back through increased pressure to tithe.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to DeSwiss (Original post)

Sun Oct 14, 2012, 04:53 AM

28. For information purposes only...

The Catholic Church, through the Vatican Bank, is the majority shareholder of arms manufacturer Beretta Holdings SPA. It brings new meaning to the phrase "Guns and Bibles".

http://usahitman.com/vbmsipb/

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to OnlinePoker (Reply #28)

Mon Oct 15, 2012, 08:28 AM

56. It also gives new meaning to the phrase

"Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition."

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to DeSwiss (Original post)

Sun Oct 14, 2012, 05:34 AM

29. All Italians will also be taxed on their own residence too

under the same taxation changes. Want that as well ?

These changes have been afoot for 10 months now. The changes don't affect 50,000 cathedrals, churches and chapels : its 11,000 schools, universities and libraries as well as nearly 5,000 hospitals, clinics and other commercial properties which face the tax.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to DeSwiss (Original post)

Sun Oct 14, 2012, 07:42 AM

30. Awesome news!! I hope there is a domino effect!!!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to DeSwiss (Original post)

Sun Oct 14, 2012, 09:24 AM

32. R#44 & K for, may Zeus make it so EVERYWHERE!1 n/t

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to DeSwiss (Original post)

Sun Oct 14, 2012, 10:03 AM

35. Whoa. Bout time.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to DeSwiss (Original post)

Sun Oct 14, 2012, 10:32 AM

36. Depending on the location, church-owned buildings not used for religious worship are taxed in the US

I live in Wisconsin and our church pays $20k per year in property taxes for an empty building that we were given. We are required to pay the $20k until it is developed as a worship center. A Catholic church in the area was assessed property taxes on a gift shop on its property because it was being used for a commercial purpose. Note: the Catholic church was not happy about this and did argue against it.

Also, churches are non-profits and the issue with taxes and political speech is not whether the organization would pay taxes (PACs don't pay taxes because they are also non-profits), but whether the donors would be able to deduct their donations on their taxes because the church has 501c(3) status. I don't think that churches should receive 501c(3) status. However, I do think that they should be able to create 501c(3) organizations that focus purely on charitable works (providing shelter, food, healthcare, etc.).

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to jhasp (Reply #36)

Sun Oct 14, 2012, 12:17 PM

40. some are not going to like facts getting in the way of their blind hatred for all things religious

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to DeSwiss (Original post)

Sun Oct 14, 2012, 01:58 PM

41. Wow. That should be enforced in the US, too. nt

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to DeSwiss (Original post)

Sun Oct 14, 2012, 02:52 PM

42. Let's be the next country to tax churches!!!

Good for them!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to DeSwiss (Original post)

Sun Oct 14, 2012, 04:01 PM

45. Time for the US to follow, on ALL churches.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to DeSwiss (Original post)

Sun Oct 14, 2012, 05:01 PM

49. Splendid idea. All those Mormon temples must have really high valuations!

Especially the ones with the gold guy on the spire blowing his trumpet

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to DeSwiss (Original post)

Sun Oct 14, 2012, 05:09 PM

51. +12

We need to do the same thing here. Tax the churces and their property and business. Hell yeah!!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to DeSwiss (Original post)

Sun Oct 14, 2012, 05:25 PM

52. That is a start but what about Italy making the Vatican part of Italy again

instead of letting it stand as a independent State (which protects child molesters). In WW Two Italy granted the Vatican status as a separate nation it should return to pre war status with out the protection of nationhood.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to awake (Reply #52)

Mon Oct 15, 2012, 09:09 AM

58. Actually it was the Lateran Treaty of 1929 signed between Mussolini and the Pope

that established the sovereign nature of Vatican City. That treaty isn't going anywhere. If you study Italian history, you will find out pretty easily that Italians have had historical enmity against the Catholic church for centuries.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to WilmywoodNCparalegal (Reply #58)

Mon Oct 15, 2012, 09:13 AM

59. This is not surprising for us Italians

Contrary to stereotype - especially here in the U.S., where stereotypes about Italy abound thanks to "Jersey Shore" and old school immigrants in NY, MA and NJ - Italy is not a Catholic nation, in the sense that very few people go to mass or adhere to Catholic principles.

We've had birth control over the counter for 2 decades, abortion on demand (albeit with a conscience clause) and other things. Italians are very secular - though there are weird things like crucifixes in schools - especially in the north.

I didn't have one classmate who was religious (of any kind). Even the weekly one-hour class in catechism had fewer students in it than the alternative class in modern popular music.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to DeSwiss (Original post)

Sun Oct 14, 2012, 08:42 PM

54. Awesome! The Great Grifting Church finally has to chip in a bit.

Evil f@#$ers! They've ripped millions off throughout the centuries.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to DeSwiss (Original post)

Mon Oct 15, 2012, 05:55 AM

55. k&r n/t

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to DeSwiss (Original post)

Mon Oct 15, 2012, 08:36 AM

57. Wow, In ITALY of all places?!?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to DeSwiss (Original post)

Mon Oct 15, 2012, 02:00 PM

61. I can see how that would make a lot of people very happy.

I imagine that should this ever be adopted in the U.S., it would allow the largest and most powerful churches with the most money to more directly involve themselves in politics-- a lot of big-money ads and campaigns would get a lot more views than they already do, and the direct involvement of preaching politics would crest; and many of the smaller churches' community assistance programs would disappear. I can see how that would make a lot of people very happy.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink

Reply to this thread