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Sun Sep 30, 2012, 12:57 PM

California becomes First State in Nation to Ban 'Gay Cure' Therapy for Children

Last edited Mon Oct 1, 2012, 09:54 AM - Edit history (1)

Source: nbc news

Updated at 12:34 p.m. ET: California has become the first state in the nation to ban therapy that tries to turn gay teens straight.

Gov. Jerry Brown announced Sunday that he has signed Senate Bill 1172, which prohibits children under age 18 from undergoing “sexual orientation change efforts.” The law, which goes into effect Jan. 1, prohibits state-licensed therapists from engaging in these practices with minors.

Governor Brown today reaffirmed what medical and mental health organizations have made clear: Efforts to change minors' sexual orientation are not therapy, they are the relics of prejudice and abuse that have inflicted untold harm on young lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender Californians Clarissa Filgioun, board president of Equality California, said in a press release.

Kate Kendell, executive director of the National Center for Lesbian Rights, added: “Governor Brown has sent a powerful message of affirmation and support to LGBT youth and their families. This law will ensure that state-licensed therapists can no longer abuse their power to harm LGBT youth and propagate the dangerous and deadly lie that sexual orientation is an illness or disorder that can be ‘cured.’”

The bill was sponsored by Sen. Ted Lieu, D-Torrance, who said bogus and unethical practices by mental-health providers to try to change a young person’s sexual orientation have resulted in irreparable psychological and emotional harm to patients.

Read more: http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/09/30/14159337-california-becomes-first-state-in-nation-to-ban-gay-cure-therapy-for-children



Here is the Gentleman who Sponsored the bill: California State Senator (D-Torrance) Ted Lieu:





Link to his Campaign Website (He is up for relection): http://tedlieu.com/index.php

Link to his Official State Website: http://sd28.senate.ca.gov/

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Reply California becomes First State in Nation to Ban 'Gay Cure' Therapy for Children (Original post)
trailmonkee Sep 2012 OP
hrmjustin Sep 2012 #1
SunSeeker Sep 2012 #6
hrmjustin Sep 2012 #7
SunSeeker Sep 2012 #9
sarcasmo Sep 2012 #33
Shuhered Oct 2012 #122
Deep13 Sep 2012 #2
SoapBox Sep 2012 #3
AsahinaKimi Sep 2012 #10
Jack Rabbit Sep 2012 #18
AsahinaKimi Sep 2012 #19
Tikki Sep 2012 #11
slackmaster Sep 2012 #4
Iliyah Sep 2012 #5
ZombieHorde Sep 2012 #8
xchrom Sep 2012 #12
Teamster Jeff Sep 2012 #13
trailmonkee Sep 2012 #14
Major Nikon Sep 2012 #23
tblue37 Sep 2012 #49
Shuhered Oct 2012 #124
dkf Sep 2012 #15
Fuddnik Sep 2012 #16
Ash_F Sep 2012 #17
secondwind Sep 2012 #20
MercutioATC Sep 2012 #21
trailmonkee Sep 2012 #22
MercutioATC Sep 2012 #28
trailmonkee Sep 2012 #29
CreekDog Oct 2012 #57
MercutioATC Oct 2012 #63
CreekDog Oct 2012 #64
MercutioATC Oct 2012 #66
CreekDog Oct 2012 #68
MercutioATC Oct 2012 #71
CreekDog Oct 2012 #73
MercutioATC Oct 2012 #74
obamanut2012 Oct 2012 #87
trailmonkee Oct 2012 #99
obamanut2012 Oct 2012 #86
Starry Messenger Oct 2012 #60
primavera Oct 2012 #119
Major Nikon Sep 2012 #24
MADem Sep 2012 #25
trailmonkee Sep 2012 #27
trailmonkee Sep 2012 #31
MADem Sep 2012 #35
obamanut2012 Oct 2012 #88
dsc Sep 2012 #30
MercutioATC Sep 2012 #32
Posteritatis Sep 2012 #34
MercutioATC Sep 2012 #37
Posteritatis Sep 2012 #44
CreekDog Oct 2012 #58
FloridaJudy Oct 2012 #61
CreekDog Oct 2012 #62
CreekDog Oct 2012 #59
MercutioATC Oct 2012 #69
CreekDog Oct 2012 #70
MercutioATC Oct 2012 #72
obamanut2012 Oct 2012 #92
obamanut2012 Oct 2012 #91
4th law of robotics Sep 2012 #38
MADem Sep 2012 #36
MercutioATC Sep 2012 #40
MADem Sep 2012 #46
Gormy Cuss Oct 2012 #108
CreekDog Oct 2012 #65
obamanut2012 Oct 2012 #93
dsc Sep 2012 #39
ck4829 Sep 2012 #42
trailmonkee Sep 2012 #51
obamanut2012 Oct 2012 #94
hunter Sep 2012 #45
MercutioATC Sep 2012 #47
hunter Sep 2012 #48
Manifestor_of_Light Oct 2012 #126
obamanut2012 Oct 2012 #90
Hassin Bin Sober Sep 2012 #41
Occulus Sep 2012 #53
obamanut2012 Oct 2012 #95
CreekDog Oct 2012 #107
Occulus Oct 2012 #109
Jamastiene Oct 2012 #112
CreekDog Oct 2012 #56
Jamastiene Oct 2012 #76
MercutioATC Oct 2012 #78
obamanut2012 Oct 2012 #96
Occulus Oct 2012 #104
Jamastiene Oct 2012 #111
Odin2005 Oct 2012 #81
FarawayBlue Oct 2012 #83
obamanut2012 Oct 2012 #97
valerief Oct 2012 #100
obamanut2012 Oct 2012 #85
Heywood J Oct 2012 #89
lunatica Oct 2012 #98
Occulus Oct 2012 #110
La Lioness Priyanka Oct 2012 #101
Kali Oct 2012 #103
dbackjon Oct 2012 #106
Chemisse Oct 2012 #113
devilgrrl Oct 2012 #120
devilgrrl Oct 2012 #121
jmowreader Oct 2012 #123
sakabatou Sep 2012 #26
Warren DeMontague Sep 2012 #43
valerief Sep 2012 #50
MADem Sep 2012 #52
Paladin Oct 2012 #84
La Lioness Priyanka Oct 2012 #102
Third Doctor Oct 2012 #54
ronnie624 Oct 2012 #55
William769 Oct 2012 #67
Socal31 Oct 2012 #75
Jamastiene Oct 2012 #77
Shuhered Oct 2012 #79
cbayer Oct 2012 #105
Odin2005 Oct 2012 #80
marmar Oct 2012 #82
Politicub Oct 2012 #114
David Zephyr Oct 2012 #115
kat22 Oct 2012 #116
Warren DeMontague Oct 2012 #117
libodem Oct 2012 #118
sarcasmo Oct 2012 #125

Response to trailmonkee (Original post)

Sun Sep 30, 2012, 12:59 PM

1. Will it stand up in the courts?

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Response to hrmjustin (Reply #1)

Sun Sep 30, 2012, 01:20 PM

6. It should. This sort of "therapy" is child abuse.

I am unaware of any laws banning child abuse being struck down.

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Response to SunSeeker (Reply #6)

Sun Sep 30, 2012, 01:21 PM

7. you never know with the wrong judge.

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Response to hrmjustin (Reply #7)

Sun Sep 30, 2012, 01:26 PM

9. Yeah, emphasis on wrong. nt

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Response to SunSeeker (Reply #6)

Sun Sep 30, 2012, 04:42 PM

33. +1

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Response to hrmjustin (Reply #1)

Tue Oct 2, 2012, 12:45 PM

122. Gay Identity Reassignment is Child Abuse

As a physician, I ALWAYs make it a point for parents and kids to know that there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with them. I use the term gay, homosexual and lesbian freely and it helps for people to hear the words spoken as a normal word, not some abomination or synonym for stupidity ( which I correct with steel tone as well, when young whippersnappers deign to say so at my office). People just need a little guidance sometimes to do the right thing. Every state, including Minnesota, home to that Nutburger with Fries Michelle Bachmann, should have this law in place by now. It is 2012 people.

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Response to trailmonkee (Original post)

Sun Sep 30, 2012, 01:00 PM

2. outstanding

Gay is not a disease and even if it were, therapies have to be based on medical science and not prayer.

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Response to trailmonkee (Original post)

Sun Sep 30, 2012, 01:09 PM

3. I love my state!

And thanks to Ted and Jerry.



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Response to SoapBox (Reply #3)

Sun Sep 30, 2012, 01:30 PM

10. Agree..

Way to lead the way, California!

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Response to AsahinaKimi (Reply #10)

Sun Sep 30, 2012, 02:26 PM

18. You know what is said about California . . .

As California goes, so goes the country.

Is the Family Research Council in panic mode right now?

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Response to Jack Rabbit (Reply #18)

Sun Sep 30, 2012, 02:29 PM

19. This is something that has to happen..eventually

everywhere.

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Response to SoapBox (Reply #3)

Sun Sep 30, 2012, 01:31 PM

11. We have some of the most progressive thinking and acting legislators...

and some backward heading ones, too.

But at this time we are moving forward and in some cases moving forward exponentially....


Tikki

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Response to trailmonkee (Original post)

Sun Sep 30, 2012, 01:10 PM

4. My state's government passes a lot of stupid, pointless laws. This is not one of them.

 

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Response to trailmonkee (Original post)

Sun Sep 30, 2012, 01:11 PM

5. Hehehehehe, love Cali!

Torrance, my neighboring city!

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Response to trailmonkee (Original post)

Sun Sep 30, 2012, 01:22 PM

8. The first of 50, I hope. nt

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Response to trailmonkee (Original post)

Sun Sep 30, 2012, 01:37 PM

12. Du rec. Nt

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Response to trailmonkee (Original post)

Sun Sep 30, 2012, 01:58 PM

13. One of the worst things you can do to a kid

is convince him/her that something is "wrong" with them. They will carry that feeling with them their whole life.

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Response to Teamster Jeff (Reply #13)

Sun Sep 30, 2012, 02:00 PM

14. I liken it to killing the spirit... sounds kind of heavy, but how else can you describe it?

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Response to trailmonkee (Reply #14)

Sun Sep 30, 2012, 03:38 PM

23. Menticide

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Response to Teamster Jeff (Reply #13)

Sun Sep 30, 2012, 07:38 PM

49. Especially when it is something that they have no choice about and cannot change, nt

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Response to Teamster Jeff (Reply #13)

Wed Oct 3, 2012, 04:08 PM

124. Totally True, Jeff

Kids have enough obstacles growing up. It is a form of abuse to take a child in the formative years of growth and heap onto that an unfair evaluation which is proven time and again to have lifelong detrimental effects. Kids need to know to love themselves and to recognize that they are being loved (ostensibly) in the one sanctuary where they deserve to feel safe, in their own home. I hope my state (Iowa) recognizes the benefit of such legislation soon.

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Response to trailmonkee (Original post)

Sun Sep 30, 2012, 02:06 PM

15. So now they will farm them out to Arizona or something I bet.

 

Parents who go this far won't stop here.

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Response to dkf (Reply #15)

Sun Sep 30, 2012, 02:20 PM

16. Dr. Bachmann will open a clinic on the Nevada border.

Go down on two corn dogs, and call me in the morning.

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Response to trailmonkee (Original post)

Sun Sep 30, 2012, 02:25 PM

17. Good for Cali

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Response to trailmonkee (Original post)

Sun Sep 30, 2012, 02:37 PM

20. Woot Woot!!! Thank you Gov. Brown

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Response to trailmonkee (Original post)

Sun Sep 30, 2012, 03:05 PM

21. As much as I loathe the "Gay Cure" theory, I disagree with this ban.

 

The whole "Gay Cure" thing is bullshit and we all know it.

I still can't support the government banning it as a practice. Some will compare it to the prefrontal lobotomies and electroshock treatments of the past and decry it as a not only regressive, but harmful course of "treatment". I can empathize.

That said, "equal rights for all people in this country" is still viewed differently by different people, and those people are all part of our electorate and entitled to a voice. As much as I disagree with them, some of my fellow Americans believe that homosexuality is an ill that can be "cured". As much as I disagree with them, I support their right to "fix" this "ailment" within the confines of their own community. I believe that legislatively depriving them of that right is wrong.

This is a "rubber meets the road" issue. Crusades aside, we all want to be able to express our personal and religious views without government intervention. I don't believe that people who have a different view should be legally banned from pursuing their beliefs.

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Response to MercutioATC (Reply #21)

Sun Sep 30, 2012, 03:38 PM

22. remember the smothering therapy?

I see this ban more like that, it's not an opinion, it's a potentially harmful quack therapy that is being tested and used on minors.

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Response to trailmonkee (Reply #22)

Sun Sep 30, 2012, 04:11 PM

28. Where do you OBJECTIVELY draw the line?

 

Yes, there are historic forms of treatment for perceived mental disease that cause physical and/or mental harm to the degree that they have been banned or, at least , left the mainstream.

There are people who claim that a "Gay Cure" treatment program is medically safe. They may further claim that the program is protected as a religious rite.

There are others who claim that the whole concept of "curing" somebody who is gay is abusive and should be legislatively banned.


Both groups have some validity to their argument. Where should we draw the line?

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Response to MercutioATC (Reply #28)

Sun Sep 30, 2012, 04:13 PM

29. when it is not a medically proven treatment and there is a consensus that it is abusive.

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Response to MercutioATC (Reply #28)

Mon Oct 1, 2012, 12:40 AM

57. you make it sound so theoretical, like their are no victims

like it's abstract to you.

say your grandchild or niece or nephew was going through this, wouldn't you consider it child abuse?

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Response to CreekDog (Reply #57)

Mon Oct 1, 2012, 01:24 AM

63. If you're deciding public policy, you HAVE to be clinical.

 

If my kid murdered somebody, I still wouldn't want him to spend his entire life in jail...but that's no way to decide public policy.

There are people who believe that circumcision is abuse. Even if I personally believed that circumcision was abusive, I still believe that the parents have the right to decide whether or not to have their child circumcised.

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Response to MercutioATC (Reply #63)

Mon Oct 1, 2012, 01:33 AM

64. Nice try at misrepresenting the source of opposition to this "treatment" -not just personal opinion

The American Psychiatric Association has condemned psychiatric "treatment" which is "based upon the assumption that homosexuality per se is a mental disorder or based upon the a priori assumption that a patient should change his/her sexual homosexual orientation." It states that, "Ethical practitioners refrain from attempts to change individuals' sexual orientation." It also states that political and moral debates over the integration of gays and lesbians into the mainstream of American society have obscured scientific data about changing sexual orientation "by calling into question the motives and even the character of individuals on both sides of the issue."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversion_therapy

if you're going to misrepresent opposition to this fake treatment as just a personal pique of some liberal activists, I'm going to call that a lie.

if you don't know any of the background to why it is being banned, then your opinion that it should remain legal is worthless.

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Response to CreekDog (Reply #64)

Mon Oct 1, 2012, 01:47 AM

66. I'm simply stating that one person's authority is not necessarily another's.

 

The APA has a medical opinion regarding conversion therapy. Millions of people hold their religious beliefs as more important than the APA's opinion.

It's my personal opinion that conversion therapy is both misguided and harmful. However, I (personally) do not put it in the same class as, say, clitoridectomy...something which I believe should be banned by law. There's a line between the freedom to raise one's child in the manner one feels appropriate and preventing harm to children. It's only my opinion, but I believe that banning a parent's right to enroll their child in conversion therapy has more pitfalls than it's worth.

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Response to MercutioATC (Reply #66)

Mon Oct 1, 2012, 01:52 AM

68. So Christian Scientists should be allowed to deny their cancer stricken children medical treatment?

yes or no?

or are you clueless about that issue also?

again, your lack of understanding that doctor's licenses and approved medical treatments are NOT CONFERRED by religious authorities, but by medical, professional and/or governmental authorities.

STOP trying to marginalize opposition to this as somehow fringe or unofficial and a matter of personal preference.

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Response to CreekDog (Reply #68)

Mon Oct 1, 2012, 02:22 AM

71. I believe that we're viewing the issue differently.

 

Whether it's indoctrinating homophobia, instilling intolerance, or stamping out independent thought, I believe that organized religion is a detrimental force. Yes, it's a great way to organize people and it has it's accomplishments, but it's a net negative.

That said, those who choose to adhere to such superstitions still get the same rights as the rest of us in this society. I admit that it gets dicey when it comes to what one can and can't do when raising a child, but I personally draw the line at physical harm. If I believed that parents should be legally barred from inflicting any emotional pain on their children, there'd be a LOT of people that should be in jail.

Given that we have to allow for a lot of leeway concerning peoples' particular religious kinks, I (personally) view this as more of a "circumcision" issue and less of a "torture" issue.

Just my view, feel free to hold a differing one.

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Response to MercutioATC (Reply #71)

Mon Oct 1, 2012, 03:09 AM

73. You didn't answer the ONLY question I just asked --about Christian Science

hmmm.

so you are in favor of allowing Christian Scientists withholding medical treatment from their cancer stricken kids, or withholding medical treatment from their kids who are experiencing a medical emergency.


at least that gives your other issue some context.

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Response to CreekDog (Reply #73)

Mon Oct 1, 2012, 03:13 AM

74. Again, you jump to conclusions.

 

No, I don't support denying children necessary medical attention. I don't view this issue in the same light.

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Response to MercutioATC (Reply #74)

Mon Oct 1, 2012, 08:06 AM

87. You are ageeing that children should be forced to have harmful untheical treatment

This is psychological and emotional TORTURE and ABUSE. Period.

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Response to MercutioATC (Reply #71)

Mon Oct 1, 2012, 08:38 AM

99. i see it as prisoner of war type torture

But it lasts a lifetime...

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Response to MercutioATC (Reply #63)

Mon Oct 1, 2012, 08:04 AM

86. Equating a juvenile KILLING someone to a minor being forced into "gay therapy"?!

And yes, that is what you did, you just called it deciding policy.

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Response to MercutioATC (Reply #28)

Mon Oct 1, 2012, 12:59 AM

60. I draw the line at child torture.

Which this is now banning.

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Response to MercutioATC (Reply #28)

Tue Oct 2, 2012, 09:58 AM

119. Disagree

If, in fact, "both groups had some validity to their argument," then you'd be right that some middle ground might be appropriate. But I strongly disagree that this is the case. I think Americans need to be watchful of their tendency to believe that there must surely be two sides to every debate and therefore the truth must always lie somewhere in the middle. This fallacy blinds Americans to the reality that, in many instances, one side is simply wrong - 100% wrong. I'm sorry, but the world isn't flat, never has been, never will be. The universe does not revolve around the earth. The Holocaust did occur. And homosexuality is not an illness for which one needs to be "cured." There is no rational evidence, repeat, none, to support such a conclusion. Not merely some, but all evidence supports the irrefutable conclusion that homosexuality is a perfectly natural phenomenon occurring throughout the natural history of our own species and countless other species. The "other side of the argument" has absolutely nothing upon which to base its position other than small-minded prejudice and primitive superstition of the same variety that gave us the Salem Witch Trials. It has no place in an enlightened civilization and deserves no legitimization whatsoever.

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Response to MercutioATC (Reply #21)

Sun Sep 30, 2012, 03:44 PM

24. Some people's beliefs include cliterectomies, which is banned in the US

So if you're against this ban you should be against that one also. Mental abuse can be just as devastating as physical abuse, if not more so.

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Response to MercutioATC (Reply #21)

Sun Sep 30, 2012, 03:55 PM

25. It is torture, plain and simple. If an adult wants to be tortured, fine.

But children should not be abused by doctors or "therapists" with shaming, electric shocks, and other aversion practices that just don't work.

This has less to do with "religion" and everything to do with abusing little kids in the NAME of religion.

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Response to MADem (Reply #25)

Sun Sep 30, 2012, 04:01 PM

27. religion aside, it is quakery because they are basing it on the idea that you learn to be Gay...

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Response to trailmonkee (Reply #27)

Sun Sep 30, 2012, 04:30 PM

31. sorry Quackery... completely different than quakery :)

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Response to trailmonkee (Reply #27)

Sun Sep 30, 2012, 04:51 PM

35. Yes, I agree that it is quackery.

I think the strongest argument, though, is that it is abusive and torturous. Let adults make the choice to be brutalized if they'd like, but don't foist that kind of crap on children.

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Response to MADem (Reply #25)

Mon Oct 1, 2012, 08:07 AM

88. THis, and it also goes against the AMA and APA

Which doesn't view being gay as something that is abnormal, nor something that can be "changed."

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Response to MercutioATC (Reply #21)

Sun Sep 30, 2012, 04:26 PM

30. It isn't a full ban but only a ban on doing it to children

If the person wishes to have the therapy when he or she is an adult then he or she can.

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Response to dsc (Reply #30)

Sun Sep 30, 2012, 04:39 PM

32. Yeah, but now we're getting into the rights of a parent.

 

Again, I think the whole "gay cure" thing is bullshit and probably harmful at some level. However, that's my opinion.

Any way you look at this, it's a complete argument of the fundamental gay rights issue from a medical/psychological standpoint. If a minor is involved, throw in parental rights issues.

This is a clusterfuck that I believe is best left alone. As long as nobody is mandating "treatment" like this, people shouldn't be legally barred from seeking this course of action or selecting it for their children.

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Response to MercutioATC (Reply #32)

Sun Sep 30, 2012, 04:50 PM

34. What rights? Parents don't have the right to abuse their children. (nt)

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Response to Posteritatis (Reply #34)

Sun Sep 30, 2012, 04:59 PM

37. "Abuse" is your word, not theirs.

 

They don 't view it as abuse.

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Response to MercutioATC (Reply #37)

Sun Sep 30, 2012, 05:27 PM

44. Most abusers don't. (nt)

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Response to MercutioATC (Reply #37)

Mon Oct 1, 2012, 12:41 AM

58. sending them to a quack who will try to beat or shock the gay out of them?

or guilt them into not being gay anymore?

can't believe i'm reading this here, though thankfully most DUers are trying to reason with you.

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Response to CreekDog (Reply #58)

Mon Oct 1, 2012, 01:03 AM

61. Or make them feel they're somehow "defective"

Even if physical coercion isn't used?

That's psychological abuse, not therapy in my view.

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Response to FloridaJudy (Reply #61)

Mon Oct 1, 2012, 01:09 AM

62. it should be as allowed as a prohibited medical procedure

because it's a danger to the patient and has no medical benefit.

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Response to MercutioATC (Reply #37)

Mon Oct 1, 2012, 12:41 AM

59. you don't think it's abuse, well that's interesting

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Response to CreekDog (Reply #59)

Mon Oct 1, 2012, 01:55 AM

69. It's interesting that you can't distinguish between the words "they" and "I".

 

I didn't state MY opinion, I stated that THEY don't view it as abuse. If you're going to debate, please pay attention.

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Response to MercutioATC (Reply #69)

Mon Oct 1, 2012, 02:11 AM

70. good luck marginalizing the APA as some sort of personal opinion

somehow equal in medical expertise to that of a priest or other religious authority.

you don't seem to know anything about this issue anyway.

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Response to CreekDog (Reply #70)

Mon Oct 1, 2012, 02:31 AM

72. ...and you seem to be way too invested in it to form rational thoughts.

 

Hey, we disagree. I don't have a problem with that.

Our society gives status to all sorts of irrational mindsets. Is this process harmful to kids? Yes, probably 90+ percent of the time. I don't personally feel that it's more abusive than a lot of other things that we allow people to legally do to their kids.

It's just my opinion. If you want to get all ninja about it, knock yourself out.



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Response to MercutioATC (Reply #72)

Mon Oct 1, 2012, 08:14 AM

92. Do you or do you not agree with the APA on this?

Oh wait, you don;t, or you wouldn't be posting what you are posting.

So, all the homophobic parents and clergy and "psychologists" are just loving the kids wanting to Shock Away Teh Gay, and the evil APA wants to take away parental rights to abuse and torture their kids, 'cause it isn't abuse to them, they love their gay kids they want to mentally destroy, and only conditionally love.

Gotcha!

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Response to MercutioATC (Reply #37)

Mon Oct 1, 2012, 08:10 AM

91. Abusers never do

Do you actually believe what you're posting???

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Response to Posteritatis (Reply #34)

Sun Sep 30, 2012, 04:59 PM

38. Well they do

 

just not in this manner in the state of CA at the moment.

Still free to chop off the ol' foreskin though. Because of religion dontchaknow.

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Response to MercutioATC (Reply #32)

Sun Sep 30, 2012, 04:56 PM

36. Parents don't have the right to allow a "therapist" or a religious person to

abuse their child--CPS would and should be called. That's what is happening in these "deprogramming" and "pray away the gay" misadventures.

Parents get into hot water for withholding basic, lifesaving medical care from their children and the courts don't fret one whit when the children are snatched away from the fundy home to receive that chemo or radiation therapy. I see this as the flip side of that issue. Parents do not have the right to torture their children in the name of God or in an attempt to "cure" them of something that isn't a disease.

It's like trying to torture them to make them not have freckles or brown eyes. It's just a stupid thing. Anyone who thinks it is a good idea is a bad parent.

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Response to MADem (Reply #36)

Sun Sep 30, 2012, 05:06 PM

40. YOU believe that. THEY don't.

 

...and, honestly, both the courts and myself are going to say that they have some rights in raising their child. The term "abuse" has a legal definition that varies by state law. Unless legal abuse is occurring, the parents are free to do what they feel best. As long as they adhere to the law, I have to support their right to make decisions for their minor children, as much as I may personally disagree with those decisions.

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Response to MercutioATC (Reply #40)

Sun Sep 30, 2012, 05:40 PM

46. Who's "they?" The parents who get the visit from CPS and have their parental rights abrogated?

Like the parents of Adolph Hitler Campbell? http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/31/adolf-hitler-campbell-custody-battle-nazi-names-new-jersey_n_1561046.html

If the courts decide that children are being psychologically or physically abused or tortured, they're going to vote for the children, and not for the whackadoodle views of their nutty and bigoted parents.

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Response to MADem (Reply #46)

Mon Oct 1, 2012, 01:33 PM

108. +1

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Response to MercutioATC (Reply #40)

Mon Oct 1, 2012, 01:36 AM

65. Stop it, the American Psychiatric Association has CONDEMNED it

Don't try to make the harm out to be some figment of a minority of liberal imagination.

Don't try to marginalize substantial, informed and clinical opinions on the subject as just the personal choices of individuals on a controversial issue. It's not controversial to medical professionals PERIOD.

It's quackery and it's harmful and that's what medical professionals consider it.

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Response to MercutioATC (Reply #40)

Mon Oct 1, 2012, 08:16 AM

93. Case law for paremts being allowed to tirture and abus etheir kids?

Or have a right to give them discredited and unethical medical "treatments"? Links to where the courts have said the AMA and APA can be overruled by ethics boards? Links?

Bet you can find plenty links saying abusers don't think they are abusers.

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Response to MercutioATC (Reply #32)

Sun Sep 30, 2012, 05:05 PM

39. children are not cattle

the fact is this treatment at best is life altering and there is literally no evidence at all that the treatment is more effective in children than in adults much less that it is effective in children but not in adults. Thus there is no earthly reason that kids should have this forced upon them by the parents which is what occurs. The child has rights and among those is not to be tortured in the name of voodoo.

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Response to MercutioATC (Reply #32)

Sun Sep 30, 2012, 05:18 PM

42. Why not let parents submit kids to trepanning or unmodified electroconvulsive therapy?

What if a parent wants to do one of those backwards treatments?

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Response to ck4829 (Reply #42)

Sun Sep 30, 2012, 09:10 PM

51. good examples

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Response to ck4829 (Reply #42)

Mon Oct 1, 2012, 08:18 AM

94. It should be allowed

Because parents should have a say in how they raise their kids, and they don't see these things as abusive and harmful, so they aren't, and what the hell does the AMA and APA know anyway?



I think that sums up that poster's talking points in this thread.

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Response to MercutioATC (Reply #32)

Sun Sep 30, 2012, 05:36 PM

45. What's a comparable religious practice???

We sent our kids to First Communion and Confirmation classes.

They hated it at times, but I don't figure we damaged them. As tends to happen in my family, it's possible this made them into greater skeptics and heretics than they might otherwise have been.

I don't bear any antipathy to other religions with similar practices, not even the Later Day Saints.

I think the big difference here is that when parents send their kids to "gay cures" they are singling them out in a very negative manner from the larger social community for something that is in all likelihood innate and largely random. A religion that claimed all red-head kids were potential witches, and sent them away to special psychologically abusive anti-witch training would be equally rotten.

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Response to hunter (Reply #45)

Sun Sep 30, 2012, 05:43 PM

47. Actually, raising children in any "faith" is comparable in my opinion.

 

If you raise children in the Catholic faith and they're gay, they learn that they're an abomination to god and bound for hell. I don't see how trying to "cure" them is really any different.

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Response to MercutioATC (Reply #47)

Sun Sep 30, 2012, 06:53 PM

48. Well, not so much in my family or community.

People started coming out in my parent's generation, and my grandparents were the generation that was accepting it. Think Hollywood and San Francisco.

But if this new law stops any conservative Catholic parents from sending their suspect kids to "gay cure" therapy, what's the problem? Where does the law go wrong?

Should the state avoid stepping on the toes of religion? I don't believe that.

What do you think about parents who withhold lifesaving medical care from kids for religious reasons?


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Response to MercutioATC (Reply #47)

Thu Oct 4, 2012, 01:41 AM

126. ALL Christians tell children they are going to hell, because they are

breathing and alive, no matter if they are straight or gay. God is a crooked prosecutor; he wants to send you to hell for existing, because a priori, before you are aware of good and bad, you are a sinner. That's extremely abusive. Original sin is a lie based on a fairy tale.

Raising a child in ANY Christian Church is abusive because you have to believe in Original Sin to be a Christian. It is the starting premise. And the cure for this magic affliction, substitutionary atonement, is unnecessary. An unnecessary and unproven cure for a made up problem, invented by church officials to keep the people shamed, scared to death, giving them their money and time so they won't go to Hell, and obedient.

Read Healing the Shame That Binds You, by John Bradshaw, Ph.D.

http://www.amazon.com/Healing-Shame-Binds-Recovery-Classics/dp/0757303234/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1349328493&sr=1-1&keywords=healing+the+shame+that+binds+you

An excerpt:
Shame is a natural feeling that, when allowed to function well, monitors a person's sense of excitement or pleasure.
But when the feeling of shame is violated by a coercive and perfectionistic religion and culture—especially by shame-based source figures who mediate religion and culture—it becomes an all-embracing identity. A person with internalized shame believes he is inherently flawed, inferior and defective. Such a feeling is so painful that defending scripts (or strategies) are developed to cover it up. These scripts are the roots of violence, criminality, war and all forms of addiction.

What I'll mainly describe in the first part of this book is how the affect shame can become the source of self-loathing, hatred of others, cruelty, violence, brutality, prejudice and all forms of destructive addictions. As an internalized identity, toxic shame is one of the major sources of the demonic in human life. Endquote
===============

And yet people give Christianity a pass, although its doctrines spoken by its ministers destroy millions of people as children, break their will to do anything on their own, and deprive the world of millions of creative works of art and creative acts.

For further reading, read The Drama of the Gifted Child by Alice Miller. She calls this brutal authoritarian child rearing style the "poisonous pedagogy". It produces tyrants like Adolf Hitler. The parents are always right, no matter how unreasonable their demands, and the children must protect the feelings of the parents.
John Bradshaw expanded on Alice Miller's work in many books.


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Response to MercutioATC (Reply #32)

Mon Oct 1, 2012, 08:10 AM

90. Parents don;t ahve a right to abuse and torture their kid

Including having fake "medical" treatments, which this is, as much as praying over a child instead of giving them insulin is.

I trust the AMA and APA over you.

You really are advocating and defending Gay Therapy for children, and it has NO PLACE on DU.

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Response to MercutioATC (Reply #21)

Sun Sep 30, 2012, 05:11 PM

41. "we all want to be able to express our personal and religious views without government intervention"

Too fucking bad.

Want to express your quackery?

Don't do it as a SATE LICENSED professional. Keep the voodoo in the church where it belongs.

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Response to MercutioATC (Reply #21)

Sun Sep 30, 2012, 11:54 PM

53. Advocating that this "therapy" is acceptable for any reason, in any context, is DEEPLY homophobic

and you should be fucking ashamed of yourself for doing so.

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Response to Occulus (Reply #53)

Mon Oct 1, 2012, 08:19 AM

95. This This This

I am shocked this talk is allowed by a poster.

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Response to Occulus (Reply #53)

Mon Oct 1, 2012, 01:20 PM

107. it's twisted logic, saying that this abuse of a child must be allowed to protect parental rights



something seriously wrong with that rationalization.

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Response to CreekDog (Reply #107)

Mon Oct 1, 2012, 01:55 PM

109. His behavior on this thread should get him banned.

There, I said it.

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Response to Occulus (Reply #109)

Mon Oct 1, 2012, 03:44 PM

112. You are not alone in thinking it either.

That poster is atrocious.

Thank you for saying how many of us feel.

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Response to MercutioATC (Reply #21)

Mon Oct 1, 2012, 12:38 AM

56. ugh

it's child abuse. it's not supporting freedom to support the right to harm a child by practicing one's quack theories on them.

some will commit suicide specifically because of this bogus, unapproved "treatment".

and you think it's a matter of rights, which is incredible, since you don't seem to think the child has any.

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Response to MercutioATC (Reply #21)

Mon Oct 1, 2012, 04:45 AM

76. So, I guess you think we should allow female genital mutilation as well?

I am appalled that you defend something that has proven to cause way more harm that good on people who do NOT want it pushed on them. You seem fine with it. Some people are Grade A "assholes" in my book.

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Response to Jamastiene (Reply #76)

Mon Oct 1, 2012, 05:04 AM

78. No, I don't.

 

I view clitoridectomy and this as different issues.

To be clear, I'm not "fine" with it. I personally believe that it's abhorrent. I also believe that others have different beliefs and that they feel as strongly as I. I have the right to teach my child that sexual orientation doesn't make one "good" or "bad"and that being gay or straight is like being black or white...it's a difference that really doesn't matter. If I believe that I have this right, I also have to admit that people with differing viewpoints have the right to teach their children according to their beliefs. I don't like it, but I do believe that a parent has the right to tell their kids that Jews are evil. I believe that they have the right to tell them that being gay is an "abomination before god".

I don't agree and I believe that we'd all be a lot better off if we got past silly issues like this, but I (with serious personal reservations) support a parent's right to raise their child with the belief system of their choice.

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Response to MercutioATC (Reply #78)

Mon Oct 1, 2012, 08:20 AM

96. You are fine with that

As you have stated over and over and over in this thread,

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Response to MercutioATC (Reply #78)

Mon Oct 1, 2012, 11:56 AM

104. "To be clear, I'm not "fine" with it."

Stop contradicting yourself.

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Response to MercutioATC (Reply #78)

Mon Oct 1, 2012, 03:20 PM

111. "silly issues" "abomination before god" Really?

Your posts tell me all I need to know about you. You are truly disgusting. You can overuse quotation marks all you want. The fact that you are fine with children being put through a fully discredited system that has been proven to be harmful to a person's mental health is horrendous.

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Response to MercutioATC (Reply #21)

Mon Oct 1, 2012, 07:38 AM

81. You do not have a right to ABUSE YOUR KIDS.

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Response to MercutioATC (Reply #21)

Mon Oct 1, 2012, 07:48 AM

83. The law isn't about religious views

 

but about state licensing standards. But basically I agree with you. If the want to circumvent the law, they can just do the therapy as a religious "healing". Laws like this smack of legislating values and don't really solve any problems. We should leave that kind of stuff the of religious right.

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Response to FarawayBlue (Reply #83)

Mon Oct 1, 2012, 08:23 AM

97. uh huh

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Response to FarawayBlue (Reply #83)

Mon Oct 1, 2012, 09:52 AM

100. Well, in other states, the licensing issues sure are putting a halt to abortion clinics

from operating!

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Response to MercutioATC (Reply #21)

Mon Oct 1, 2012, 07:55 AM

85. Evolution is a theory, this isn't a theory

It's hate wrapped up in the trappings of junk science and unethical medicine, no different than the "theories" of Eugenics and The Master Race, or how Blacks are 't as intelligent as Whites.

I find your post appalling, and it has no place here. None.

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Response to MercutioATC (Reply #21)

Mon Oct 1, 2012, 08:08 AM

89. Right. I can tell you exactly where that "respect religious beliefs on child treatment" goes.

London — Walter Zepeda was possessed by the devil.

His parents, devoutly religious members of a Pentecostal church that believes in such manifestations, knew that much to be true...

So Diego Zepeda-Cordera called his friend Alex Osegueda, a fellow member of the Missionary Church of Christ and a man of equal devotion, to help him rid his son of the evil. They had no idea the seven days of forced confinement it took to drive away the devil would also, literally, drain the life out of Walter.

He lost nine litres of fluid as he lay strapped with men's ties to metal chairs in the basement apartment he shared with his family in this western Ontario city. Ultimately he died of dehydration.

Where's your respect for not "legislatively depriving them of that right" and "express our personal and religious views without government intervention"?

http://pbdba.lfpress.com/cgi-bin/publish.cgi?p=228720&s=societe
That appeared to be the case in Aylmer in 2001, when the Children's Aid Society seized seven children from an Aylmer family.

The parents -- who had been investigated a year earlier for failing to get medical help for a child scalded by boiling water -- had this time hit their children with belts, electrical cords and the wire handle of a fly swatter, according to the children.

During the investigation, child welfare workers seized a Church of God parenting guide in the home that told parents children as young as six months should be beaten with a rod.



Does the "rubber meet the road" there for you? Or do you "empathize" with the dead and beaten?

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Response to MercutioATC (Reply #21)

Mon Oct 1, 2012, 08:25 AM

98. I can only surmise that you're a homophobe

Don't you get it that this practice is based on hatred and fear? You support the so called 'equal rights' of people who do harm to others on the basis of religion, when in reality they're doing harm on the basis of their own ignorant fears and prejudices.

How do you feel about the witch hunts in Salem? They were a community. Is killing women on the basis of believing them to be witches a right you would uphold?
Based on your comments you probably think it is.

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Response to lunatica (Reply #98)

Mon Oct 1, 2012, 02:24 PM

110. He's a homophobe, all right

He actually had the nerve to tell us in the GLBT group that (direct, unaltered quote here) "You people really need to lighten up a bit."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/113720160#post31

MercutioATC is as homophobic as they come.

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Response to MercutioATC (Reply #21)

Mon Oct 1, 2012, 10:57 AM

101. children cannot consent to this therapy, and the state has a right to protect children

this is not preventing grownup from conversion therapy

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Response to MercutioATC (Reply #21)

Mon Oct 1, 2012, 11:27 AM

103. WRONG

it is dangerous and even life-threatening abuse and quackery

the State is right to protect its minor citizens in this manner. Hopefully the law will be adopted widly by every other state (although I fear as mentioned elsewhere, some states may capitalize on making it an import practice. I am thinking of the bible-boot camps that people I know got sent to in places like Texas)

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Response to MercutioATC (Reply #21)

Mon Oct 1, 2012, 12:28 PM

106. So you are in favor of Child Abuse?

Because this is what it is.

Leads to suicide in many.


Glad to know you are for the death and explotation of minors.


What the fuck are you doing on a Progressive website?

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Response to MercutioATC (Reply #21)

Mon Oct 1, 2012, 08:55 PM

113. I would agree with you if there were not children involved.

Kids can't choose their religious community, and don't have the power to defend or protect themselves from it.

If they want to undergo this 'treatment' as adults, then fine for them - it's their choice. But this is a ban on doing this to teenagers, which is child abuse, in my opinion.

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Response to MercutioATC (Reply #21)


Response to MercutioATC (Reply #21)


Response to MercutioATC (Reply #21)

Tue Oct 2, 2012, 01:19 PM

123. I am going to disagree with you here

The Gay can't be prayed away.

Way too many people have sent their gay kids to this treatment. When it fails, as it always does, the kids are led to believe they are at fault for rejecting God, and many commit suicide.

The truth is that you can no more cure a gay person of being gay than you can cure me of having size 9 feet. Claiming that you can screws the kid - he is going to be as gay as he was, but now he's more depressed about it. It screws the parents - they think that by sending their gay kid to this they'll get back a nice normal Republican boy who will get married and give them adorable grandkids, and it won't. It also screws the parents' bank account - praying away the gay isn't cheap.

This is as harmful as prescribing apricot pits for cancer or any of the other quack cures of the 1800s, and should be banned everywhere.

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Response to trailmonkee (Original post)

Sun Sep 30, 2012, 03:59 PM

26. Huzzuh!

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Response to trailmonkee (Original post)

Sun Sep 30, 2012, 05:24 PM

43. My wife just mentioned this, so I knew DU would be talking about it.

Obviously I support it from a philosophical standpoint, and I support it legally, too. I have no doubt, however, that it will face vigorous legal challenges; the Heritage Foundation, the AFA, The Judith Reisman types are undoubtedly lawyering up as we speak.

It raises some interesting legal questions, that's unavoidable.

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Response to trailmonkee (Original post)

Sun Sep 30, 2012, 08:47 PM

50. Next thing you know they'll want to take away the kids' guns.

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Response to valerief (Reply #50)

Sun Sep 30, 2012, 10:52 PM

52. You win the thread with that comment! nt

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Response to valerief (Reply #50)

Mon Oct 1, 2012, 07:53 AM

84. Well Put.


The sort of bloodless, uber-rational opposition on display here is exactly the approach our resident Gun Enthusiasts use to promote their right wing viewpoints on firearms policy.

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Response to valerief (Reply #50)

Mon Oct 1, 2012, 10:57 AM

102. lol

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Response to trailmonkee (Original post)

Mon Oct 1, 2012, 12:10 AM

54. Thank god.

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Response to trailmonkee (Original post)

Mon Oct 1, 2012, 12:23 AM

55. Definitely going in the right direction.

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Response to trailmonkee (Original post)

Mon Oct 1, 2012, 01:50 AM

67. Recommended.

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Response to trailmonkee (Original post)

Mon Oct 1, 2012, 04:25 AM

75. The only people who believe you can "pray the gay away"

.....are extreme hypocrites who get caught with a meth pipe and a male prostitute in their car.

Why is this even an issue?

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Response to trailmonkee (Original post)

Mon Oct 1, 2012, 05:02 AM

77. I wonder how soon North Carolina puts another amendment to our state's constitution

on the ballot to make sure it is never banned here. I wish my state wasn't so hateful and homophobic. I fucking hate my state sometimes.

Glad to see at least one state has the compassion and intelligence to end this horrible, life threatening practice against children. Props to Senator Lieu and the state of California.

K&R&L

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Response to trailmonkee (Original post)

Mon Oct 1, 2012, 06:16 AM

79. Good LAW

As a gay man living in Iowa, and over the age of 40, this is good news. I take care of a variety of people and kids just do NOT need any further stigma attached to their already tumultuous adolescent years. My Father, may he rest in peace, was supportive of my stress when I came out to him. After assuring me that he still loved me, he did offer me some 1-800 number to call for a cure to my gayness. In 1987, at age 23, I never made the call ( mostly just because instincts told me that it would be ridiculous). I served in the Navy and was out to everyone--my language skills in Arabic likely helped not get thrown out. I did my job and demanded the same respect I gave to others. I love being gay and all the advantages it accords on lifestyle. One can make a tremendous difference in lives through foundations, monetarily help with youth who often have little or no support once they come out. Friendships are true and long-lasting as well in the gay world owing to the safety in numbers idea.

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Response to Shuhered (Reply #79)

Mon Oct 1, 2012, 12:28 PM

105. Welcome to DU and thanks for this great post.

Thank you for all you have done.

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Response to trailmonkee (Original post)

Mon Oct 1, 2012, 07:37 AM

80. +1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000!!!

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Response to trailmonkee (Original post)

Mon Oct 1, 2012, 07:40 AM

82. Enchante !!!!





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Response to trailmonkee (Original post)

Mon Oct 1, 2012, 09:19 PM

114. K&r

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Response to trailmonkee (Original post)

Mon Oct 1, 2012, 11:59 PM

115. Jerry Brown, Best Governor in American History.

Easy.

K&R.

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Response to trailmonkee (Original post)

Tue Oct 2, 2012, 12:34 AM

116. the other way around

Would the opponents of this bill consider the opposite therapy in which straight kids are turned gay? I think not.

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Response to kat22 (Reply #116)

Tue Oct 2, 2012, 01:03 AM

117. Excellent point, which highlights the abusive nature of the so-called "therapy"

it's abuse to try to force someone to change their orientation, change who they are. Pure and simple.

Welcome to DU.

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Response to trailmonkee (Original post)

Tue Oct 2, 2012, 02:28 AM

118. May the rest of the country follow

Soon!

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Response to trailmonkee (Original post)

Wed Oct 3, 2012, 08:51 PM

125. Kick!

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