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Thu Sep 27, 2012, 09:39 PM

Conn. man kills masked boy, finds out it's his son

Source: AP

NEW FAIRFIELD, Conn. (AP) — A man fatally shot a masked teenager in self-defense outside his neighbor’s house during what appeared to be an attempted late-night burglary and then discovered it was his son, state police said.

Police identified the dead boy as 15-year-old Tyler Giuliano, who was shot at about 1 a.m. Thursday in New Fairfield, a town along the New York line just north of Danbury.

A woman who was alone in the house believed someone was breaking in and called the teen’s father, who lives next door, and he grabbed a gun and went outside to investigate, police said.

The father confronted someone wearing a black ski mask and black clothing and then fired his gun when the person went at him with a shiny weapon in his hand, police said.


Read more: http://www.boston.com/news/nation/2012/09/27/conn-man-kills-masked-boy-finds-out-his-son/YNkibrc1bn4NXiu0k30OHN/story.html

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Reply Conn. man kills masked boy, finds out it's his son (Original post)
oberliner Sep 2012 OP
lonestarnot Sep 2012 #1
onehandle Sep 2012 #2
Lasher Sep 2012 #112
4th law of robotics Sep 2012 #116
aikoaiko Sep 2012 #225
onehandle Sep 2012 #241
valerief Sep 2012 #242
onehandle Sep 2012 #244
Waltons_Mtn Sep 2012 #3
Chemisse Sep 2012 #41
Shadowflash Sep 2012 #4
MADem Sep 2012 #5
bluedigger Sep 2012 #6
Orrex Sep 2012 #7
Soylent Brice Sep 2012 #20
AlbertCat Sep 2012 #21
Dokkie Sep 2012 #190
peacebird Sep 2012 #54
a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #8
uppityperson Sep 2012 #23
a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #25
ChillZilla Sep 2012 #76
OregonBlue Sep 2012 #86
obamanut2012 Sep 2012 #92
savalez Sep 2012 #122
obamanut2012 Sep 2012 #164
savalez Oct 2012 #259
a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #105
Canuckistanian Sep 2012 #202
a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #208
Spitfire of ATJ Sep 2012 #9
geek tragedy Sep 2012 #12
Spitfire of ATJ Sep 2012 #19
Happyhippychick Sep 2012 #10
geek tragedy Sep 2012 #11
Happyhippychick Sep 2012 #18
oldbanjo Sep 2012 #38
Happyhippychick Sep 2012 #45
bw3517 Sep 2012 #48
Happyhippychick Sep 2012 #55
deutsey Sep 2012 #52
obamanut2012 Sep 2012 #60
LisaL Sep 2012 #120
AlbertCat Sep 2012 #22
loli phabay Sep 2012 #26
geek tragedy Sep 2012 #34
obamanut2012 Sep 2012 #57
4th law of robotics Sep 2012 #93
AlbertCat Sep 2012 #193
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Prometheus Bound Sep 2012 #123
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OregonBlue Sep 2012 #88
4th law of robotics Sep 2012 #94
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Shitty Mitty Sep 2012 #224
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LisaL Sep 2012 #194
cheapdate Sep 2012 #13
TheCowsCameHome Sep 2012 #15
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Matariki Sep 2012 #254
truthisfreedom Oct 2012 #271
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Response to oberliner (Original post)

Thu Sep 27, 2012, 09:42 PM

1. Bizarre.

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Response to oberliner (Original post)

Thu Sep 27, 2012, 09:43 PM

2. Guns' inevitable targets are family members. nt

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Response to onehandle (Reply #2)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 01:52 PM

112. No, that's not true.

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Response to onehandle (Reply #2)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 02:13 PM

116. Because every family contains at least one son

 

who attempts to burglarize the neighbors house then takes a stab at the dad when he comes to investigate?

What world do you live in?

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Response to onehandle (Reply #2)

Sat Sep 29, 2012, 09:34 AM

225. inevitable doesn't mean what you think it means.

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Response to onehandle (Reply #2)

Sat Sep 29, 2012, 12:43 PM

241. The 'multiple' gungeoneers who are 'suddenly' responding to this post are wasting their time.

You're all on ignore.



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Response to onehandle (Reply #241)

Sat Sep 29, 2012, 01:03 PM

242. But they LIVE for this.

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Response to valerief (Reply #242)

Sat Sep 29, 2012, 01:11 PM

244. Clearly. nt

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Response to oberliner (Original post)

Thu Sep 27, 2012, 09:48 PM

3. Kills son in self defense?

The boy was attacking his own father or his father saw someone he could legally shoot and blasted away at him?

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Response to Waltons_Mtn (Reply #3)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 05:22 AM

41. That's what I was wondering. It didn't make sense.

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Response to oberliner (Original post)

Thu Sep 27, 2012, 09:52 PM

4. Oops.

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Response to oberliner (Original post)

Thu Sep 27, 2012, 09:54 PM

5. Smells like Shakespeare to me, that drama. nt

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Response to oberliner (Original post)

Thu Sep 27, 2012, 09:54 PM

6. Pretty good disguise. n/t

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Response to oberliner (Original post)

Thu Sep 27, 2012, 10:00 PM

7. Thank god the man was armed, or this could have ended in tragedy

Oh, wait a minute...

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Response to Orrex (Reply #7)

Thu Sep 27, 2012, 10:49 PM

20. precisely. n/t

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Response to Orrex (Reply #7)

Thu Sep 27, 2012, 10:54 PM

21. Yep!

How's that letting brave armed citizens with guns do police work workin' out for ya, huh?

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Response to AlbertCat (Reply #21)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 06:53 PM

190. Have you been living under a rock

 

Had the police arrived before the father, the son, the dad, the neighbor and the family dog will all be sleeping with the fishes right now. Police in the day of age are the most trigger happy SOB you can find. As a black man, I dread the day that I would have to call the police for a weapon involved incident.

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Response to Orrex (Reply #7)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 08:45 AM

54. +1

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Response to oberliner (Original post)

Thu Sep 27, 2012, 10:02 PM

8. that really sucks...

 

Damn...

Please give all of your loved ones a hug tonight...

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Response to a geek named Bob (Reply #8)

Thu Sep 27, 2012, 11:06 PM

23. Thank you. Best reply so far. eom

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Response to uppityperson (Reply #23)

Thu Sep 27, 2012, 11:08 PM

25. You're welcome,

 

Stay safe, be well, and enjoy the family and friends.

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Response to a geek named Bob (Reply #8)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 10:42 AM

76. Wow, someone cares about a father accidentally killing his own son

 

Thanks for that. Very tragic.

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Response to ChillZilla (Reply #76)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 11:57 AM

86. Accidentally killing his own son? This was no accident.

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Response to OregonBlue (Reply #86)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 12:28 PM

92. How do you know that?

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #92)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 03:04 PM

122. He pointed it at him and shot.

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Response to savalez (Reply #122)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 05:47 PM

164. Link to where he meant to kill his son?

I've read several articles and updates, and all I've seen it that the young man was dressed in black, wearing a mask, and attempting to break into his aunt's home at 1 am. I was not aware the authorities have stated the father knew it was his son when he shot. I would like to read about his confession to the cops.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #164)

Mon Oct 1, 2012, 12:26 PM

259. Link to where he dropped the gun and it accidentally went off.

OregonBlue said, "Accidentally killing his own son? This was no accident." You replied, "How do you know that?". I responded with, "He pointed it at him and shot."

As far as I know there are only a few instances when a shooting can be considered an accident. Pointing a loaded gun at someone and pulling the trigger is not one of them.

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Response to ChillZilla (Reply #76)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 12:56 PM

105. I guess I'm just weird that way. n/t

 

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Response to a geek named Bob (Reply #8)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 09:12 PM

202. Yeah

You can lay blame where you want, but somewhere a father is missing his son.

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Response to Canuckistanian (Reply #202)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 11:23 PM

208. exactly

 

How about we all try to put aside the differences, and think a few good thoughts to this family...

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Response to oberliner (Original post)

Thu Sep 27, 2012, 10:02 PM

9. Wouldn't it be something if he was peeping in on her getting undressed?

And the "shiny weapon" was a bottle of hand cream?

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Response to Spitfire of ATJ (Reply #9)

Thu Sep 27, 2012, 10:12 PM

12. With a ski mask? Nt

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #12)

Thu Sep 27, 2012, 10:42 PM

19. So he couldn't be recognized.

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Response to oberliner (Original post)

Thu Sep 27, 2012, 10:08 PM

10. My sympathies extend to the mother of this child. The father should get life in prison.

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Response to Happyhippychick (Reply #10)

Thu Sep 27, 2012, 10:11 PM

11. For what crime? The kid burglarized the house of a woman and was armed. nt

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #11)

Thu Sep 27, 2012, 10:27 PM

18. Is he a cop? No. This vigilante shit is not good. And we don't know the kid was armed.

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Response to Happyhippychick (Reply #18)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 03:56 AM

38. Until some laws are changed you should have the right to

protect yourself, I've lived here for 14 years and there is a family who's members are arrested ever two years for stealing, none have gone to jail. They were told by their lawyer that short of killing someone they would never have to serve time. The law in this County helps them.In the last two years they have been arrested for having a Meth Lab. They had gun in their house while on probation for a felony, the County Cops hid the guns from the State Cops.

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Response to oldbanjo (Reply #38)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 07:31 AM

45. He should be able to protect himself but it wasn't HIS house. It was the neighbor.

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Response to Happyhippychick (Reply #45)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 08:08 AM

48. Didn't it say that

 

the neighbor called him and asked for his help? You should be able to protect others, especially when asked to do so.

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Response to bw3517 (Reply #48)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 08:49 AM

55. I''m sure the man who just killed his son doesn't believe this any longer.

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Response to Happyhippychick (Reply #45)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 08:40 AM

52. I read in another article that the neighbor was the dad's sister. n/t

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Response to Happyhippychick (Reply #45)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 09:01 AM

60. It was his sister's home

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Response to Happyhippychick (Reply #45)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 02:53 PM

120. The neighbor is his sister.

Are you saying he has no right to protect his own sister?

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #11)

Thu Sep 27, 2012, 10:59 PM

22. The kid burglarized the house

And now... try reading with comprehension...

A woman who was alone in the house believed someone was breaking in and called the teen’s father

Why didn't she dial 911? Why didn't the father call 911?

Does she call her neighbors if her house is on fire?

And jumping to conclusions like yours got the father to kill his son.

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Response to AlbertCat (Reply #22)

Thu Sep 27, 2012, 11:15 PM

26. i dont know this town but were i live it can take the popo forever to arrive

 

Especially in bad weather. My wife would call my neighbours first the 911 but i dont know all the circumstances here.

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Response to AlbertCat (Reply #22)

Thu Sep 27, 2012, 11:56 PM

34. Because he's the closest person available.

Police could take 30 minutes to get there.

Jeebus, this needs to be explained?

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Response to AlbertCat (Reply #22)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 08:57 AM

57. Two reasons

1. Where I live, the cops take 20-40 minutes to get here, and

2. One article said the neighbor is actually a relative.

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Response to AlbertCat (Reply #22)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 12:28 PM

93. Sounds like victim blaming

 

what was she doing being at her own home at that hour anyway?

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Response to 4th law of robotics (Reply #93)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 07:47 PM

193. Sounds like victim blaming

Oh please!

I merely asked the most obvious of questions.

Which victim did you think I was "blaming".... the father or the son?

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Response to 4th law of robotics (Reply #93)

Sat Sep 29, 2012, 07:04 PM

250. I've found the sarcasm tag is needed

more often than it should be necessary.

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Response to AlbertCat (Reply #22)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 12:29 PM

95. The neighbor is his sister, who lives alone

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Response to AlbertCat (Reply #22)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 03:25 PM

123. I tell my neighbours if something's wrong at night, call the police and then call me.

The police here are great, but they may take 10 minutes to arrive, when I can be there in 30 seconds.

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Response to Happyhippychick (Reply #10)

Thu Sep 27, 2012, 10:14 PM

14. Sympathies should go out to everyone. A father who killed a prowler who just happened to be his own

son?

This is just a horrible story.

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Response to madinmaryland (Reply #14)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 11:58 AM

88. Yes, this was a tragedy but it was an avoidable tragedy.

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Response to OregonBlue (Reply #88)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 12:28 PM

94. Yes. The son could have not tried to break in to that woman's house

 

He won't do that again.

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Response to 4th law of robotics (Reply #94)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 02:08 PM

113. "He won't do that again"

That's pretty fucking cold.

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Response to Occulus (Reply #113)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 02:12 PM

115. I don't have a lot of sympathy for idiots who get killed while breaking and entering

 

someone's home in the night.

And on top of that he's traumatized his family with his actions.

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Response to 4th law of robotics (Reply #115)

Sat Sep 29, 2012, 09:20 AM

224. +1

I don't understand the reasoning behind NOT expecting someone to get shot when they're BREAKING AND ENTERING someone's house, especially at NIGHT.

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Response to Happyhippychick (Reply #10)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 04:17 PM

140. The mother should have been keeping an eye on her son.

Why was this child roaming around the neighborhood at 1 AM, dressed in a cat burglar outfit and breaking into home?

That's what parents are for--to monitor their child's behavior.

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Response to marshall (Reply #140)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 07:55 PM

194. I haven't seen anything to indicate he actually has a mother to monitor his behavior.

He was adopted by the teacher.

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Response to oberliner (Original post)

Thu Sep 27, 2012, 10:14 PM

13. Horrible story.

I'll bet the NRA crazies won't be highlighting this story alongside all of the "70 year-old grandma shoots a burglar" stories that they love to put into mass circulation on the internets.

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Response to cheapdate (Reply #13)

Thu Sep 27, 2012, 10:19 PM

15. You're right...

..on all counts.

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Response to cheapdate (Reply #13)

Thu Sep 27, 2012, 11:22 PM

28. That's for damn sure. High percentage of Leadership loved by Tbaggers.

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Response to oberliner (Original post)

Thu Sep 27, 2012, 10:20 PM

16. why didn't she call the police??

Instead she called a neighbor? At 1am. A teacher....?? My husband has traveled a lot over the years, and --- I think I'll wait until the details come out. Just doesn't add up.



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Response to bluemarkers (Reply #16)

Thu Sep 27, 2012, 11:58 PM

35. Neighbor would get there much faster. duh. nt

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #35)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 07:38 AM

46. doesn't make sense duh

being at home alone or with young kids, I would have never called a neighbor

"Hey can you step outside and double check for me - I think someone's trying to break in my house.... 'k thanks"

Call the police first - turn on lights - Breaking into an occupied home at night isn't really commonplace

eta: though with the way the police are lately, they would have shot the kid too.

and I feel badly for the families as well. Just waiting for more info

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Response to bluemarkers (Reply #46)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 08:11 AM

49. How exactly do you act

 

when you are frightened? She did what she thought was best and it just so happened to turn out poorly. Hindsight is 20/20.

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Response to bluemarkers (Reply #16)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 05:05 PM

152. She was the sister of the shooter, the aunt of the boy shot


She likely called her brother because he is close by and she was afraid.

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Response to oberliner (Original post)

Thu Sep 27, 2012, 10:21 PM

17. I am going to note this in the gun thread I am currently arguing against

 

guns and bullets kill.
the nra kills

and as someone else said, I feel for the boys mother and all. And how ironic it is.

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Response to oberliner (Original post)

Thu Sep 27, 2012, 11:07 PM

24. I wonder if this man will give up his guns now?

He's killed his own son, by mistake I hope, and he has to live with it. I would like to know if he will ever touch a gun again.

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Response to oberliner (Original post)

Thu Sep 27, 2012, 11:19 PM

27. This is only about five miles from me. The woman is his aunt...

who lives next door to her brother, the boy's father. Local news saying that no one knows what he was doing out of the house at that hour and dressed as he was. Saying nothing about what he was supposedly carrying, either. There's a lot more to this story than we've heard thus far.

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Response to MANative (Reply #27)

Thu Sep 27, 2012, 11:41 PM

32. like an epic tragedy

Thanks for those extra details.

I'm hoping he really was burglarizing her house--how heartbreaking would it be if it turned out to be something else, like surprising her with a gift on her porch or something nice like that?

I've never been able to get a story out of my head from years and years and years ago about a father who shot his 4-year-old son in their living room in the middle of the night; the little boy had sneaked out of bed to go look at the Christmas tree they'd just put up.

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Response to renate (Reply #32)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 06:38 AM

43. That story is incredibly sad

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Response to MANative (Reply #27)

Thu Sep 27, 2012, 11:55 PM

33. Very tragic.

Is New Fairfield where Lake Candlewood is located? I remember it as a small suburban type town, pretty quiet. Been to that area a few times (I live in Plymouth).

Wonder what was going on there. Have to tune into WTNH tomorrow.

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Response to Jennicut (Reply #33)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 08:15 AM

50. Yes, that's the place.

Lovely town.

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Response to oberliner (Original post)

Thu Sep 27, 2012, 11:24 PM

29. WTF?

So the asshole had to shoot a gun at the guy??? What happened to real men, not pansies?
What a fucking idiot. So tragic.

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Response to Megahurtz (Reply #29)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 08:59 AM

58. "Pansies"?

Very nice slur.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #58)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 03:34 PM

125. Should I Have Said Coward Instead?

Sure - why not? It's quacking like a duck, isn't it?

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Response to Megahurtz (Reply #125)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 05:49 PM

165. Woudln't that be better than using a gay slur?

You are able to edit the slur from your post.

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Response to Megahurtz (Reply #29)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 12:30 PM

96. Real men engage in fist fights with strangers at night?

 

Or the let their female neighbors be robbed and do nothing.

What is the appropriate "real man" approach?

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Response to 4th law of robotics (Reply #96)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 03:31 PM

124. A Real Man Approach....

What is the appropriate real man approach?

How about not shooting a gun at the guy for one thing. Some kid (did you see his photo?) supposedly lunges with a shiny object at a grown man, how about ducking? How about grabbing the kids arms? How about kicking his ass?

I don't even believe the story anyway. I think the dad is lying IMO. So the son sees his dad knowing he is caught in the act and lunges at him with an object in order to injure him? Yeah right. And I have a bridge to sell too.

This story reeks from miles away. I think that it's very possible the dad fucked up and is conspiring with his sister to cover his own ass.

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Response to Megahurtz (Reply #124)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 03:46 PM

129. So someone tries to stab you and you . . . duck?

 

Um . . . k.

How about grabbing the kids arms? How about kicking his ass?


Friggin A man! Get all Rambo on his ass. Or chuck norris. Disarm him with your mad ninja skilz then give him the ol' five point hit of death! Because MOVIES!



I don't even believe the story anyway. I think the dad is lying IMO. So the son sees his dad knowing he is caught in the act and lunges at him with an object in order to injure him? Yeah right. And I have a bridge to sell too.


So you think it's more likely he murdered his son in cold blood then convinced the neighbor to be complicit in the murder?

Sure . . .

This story reeks from miles away. I think that it's very possible the dad fucked up and is conspiring with his sister to cover his own ass.


Because that happens. In real life.

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Response to 4th law of robotics (Reply #129)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 04:03 PM

135. And So

you are saying you would have pointed a gun at this guy and shot him? AND on top of it aim to kill???
Go right ahead, but you will have to deal with the consequences.

The guy should not have bolted over there with a gun to begin with.

You know what else happens in real life? A dad shooting his adopted son in cold blood.

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Response to Megahurtz (Reply #135)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 05:51 PM

169. It was the father's sister's house

And, as the article noted, the son was dressed in black and masked. At 1 am.

Real men do help their sister, when their sister lives alone and someone is attempting to break in.

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Response to Megahurtz (Reply #135)

Sat Sep 29, 2012, 11:00 AM

229. In the circumstances described in the article?

 

Yeah.

In that case he made it a him or me choice. Given that why should I choose him?


Go right ahead, but you will have to deal with the consequences.


In the US there are no legal consequences for legitimate self defense.

Nor should there be.


The guy should not have bolted over there with a gun to begin with.


The guy should never have tried to break in to that house. Or lunged at someone holding a gun with a knife.

You know what else happens in real life? A dad shooting his adopted son in cold blood.


All the time. This is a daily occurrence. That's why it made the news.

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Response to Megahurtz (Reply #135)

Mon Oct 1, 2012, 04:56 PM

266. It appears you don't don't know anything about the mechanics or legalities or morality....

 

of lawful self-defense shootings, do you?

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Response to Megahurtz (Reply #124)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 03:50 PM

130. I want to know how long between the call & the shooting. Also, what else occurred? Lights turned on?

Did she exit the house, say toward the street, or in the direction opposite that where she thought the invader was?

WHY on earth didn't the woman ALSO call the cops? If it was serious enough to call someone with a gun to come over, why was it not also considered serious enough to at least get the police to back-up your neighbor with the gun?

Odd.

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Response to patrice (Reply #130)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 04:07 PM

136. Yes

it's very odd, that's why I suspect BS. She should have dialed 911 if she thought there was an intruder.

If I was an investigator I would be sniffing around real good on this one.

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Response to patrice (Reply #130)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 05:53 PM

170. The neighbor is her brother

And the town has no police or sheriff, only a state trooper who patrols a wide area. In my area, we do have sheriff deputies, but even in good weather during daylight, it takes 20+ minutes for them to get here.

Also, police WERE called.

And, the worst thing she could have done is leave the safety of her house.

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Response to Megahurtz (Reply #124)

Mon Oct 1, 2012, 12:35 PM

260. I guess not everyone is a kung-fu expert like you.

It's pretty clear you've never faced someone with a knife, and everything you said is bullshit pulled from some Steven Seagal movie.

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Response to oberliner (Original post)

Thu Sep 27, 2012, 11:28 PM

30. Unreal.

I seriously hope this man gets haunted the rest of his life by what he did. What a fucking dickhead.

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Response to Megahurtz (Reply #30)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 08:16 AM

51. Way to take the sympathetic approach.

 

"Don't be yourself - be someone a little nicer." ~Mignon McLaughlin

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Response to bw3517 (Reply #51)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 03:40 PM

126. I Really Don't Have Much Sympathy

for this dad for a reckless "accident" that could have easily been avoided. I have sympathy for the dead son, which is where the sympathy should be directed.

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Response to Megahurtz (Reply #126)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 11:54 PM

209. The dead son who was apparently attempting to commit a crime in the middle of the night...

 

and instead of surrenduring, appears to have attempted to attack his father?

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Response to oberliner (Original post)

Thu Sep 27, 2012, 11:33 PM

31. Darwin's law at work here

It is tragic. Pity is appropriate. But something like this would never, ever happen to me or anybody I know. There's the smell of a special kind of stupid in this episode.

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Response to oberliner (Original post)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 12:43 AM

36. Another article says that the woman next door was the man's sister and

the kid's aunt. Whatever really happened or why the kid was there, I feel for everyone in that family tonight...

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Response to oberliner (Original post)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 01:12 AM

37. I'm fairly heartless here. Guy grabs gun and shoots first, without a warning or questioning?

I feel bad for the mother, and for the victim. But the father? Not even a little.

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Response to dorksied (Reply #37)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 03:56 PM

133. Yes. We need to know more about what happened in the confrontation.How long from encounter to death?

Where the shooting occurred? especially relevant to other entrances and exits from the house?

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Response to oberliner (Original post)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 04:06 AM

39. statistically

this fits in pretty well.

a case study by Arthur Kellerman M.D. found that keeping a gun in the home carries a homicide risk 2.7 times greater than not keeping one.


A little bit about Dr Kellerman from his wiki :
Dr. Arthur L. Kellermann, M.D., M.P.H., F.A.C.E.P. (born 1955) was recently named the Director of RAND Health. He was the founding chairman of the department of Emergency Medicine at Emory University in Atlanta, Georgia, USA, and founding director of the Center for Injury Control at Rollins School of Public Health, a collaborating center for injury and violence prevention of the World Health Organization. His writings include more than 200 scientific and lay publications on various aspects of emergency cardiac care, health services research, injury prevention and the role of emergency departments in the provision of health care to the poor.

Kellermann co-chaired the Committee on the Consequences of Uninsurance of the Institute of Medicine of the United States National Academies, of which he is an elected member. Kellermann holds career achievement awards for excellence in science from the Society for Academic Emergency Medicine, and the Injury Control and Emergency Health Services Section of the American Public Health Association. As a 2006-2007 Robert Wood Johnson Foundation Health Policy Fellow, he joined the Professional Staff of the United States House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform in Washington, D.C. In 2007 he was presented with the John G. Wiegenstein Leadership Award by the American College of Emergency Physicians, their highest award.

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Response to oberliner (Original post)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 04:06 AM

39. statistically..

this fits in pretty well.

a case study by Arthur Kellermann M.D. found that keeping a gun in the home carries a homicide risk 2.7 times greater than not keeping one.


A little bit about Dr Kellermann from his wiki :
Dr. Arthur L. Kellermann, M.D., M.P.H., F.A.C.E.P. (born 1955) was recently named the Director of RAND Health. He was the founding chairman of the department of Emergency Medicine at Emory University in Atlanta, Georgia, USA, and founding director of the Center for Injury Control at Rollins School of Public Health, a collaborating center for injury and violence prevention of the World Health Organization. His writings include more than 200 scientific and lay publications on various aspects of emergency cardiac care, health services research, injury prevention and the role of emergency departments in the provision of health care to the poor.

Kellermann co-chaired the Committee on the Consequences of Uninsurance of the Institute of Medicine of the United States National Academies, of which he is an elected member. Kellermann holds career achievement awards for excellence in science from the Society for Academic Emergency Medicine, and the Injury Control and Emergency Health Services Section of the American Public Health Association. As a 2006-2007 Robert Wood Johnson Foundation Health Policy Fellow, he joined the Professional Staff of the United States House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform in Washington, D.C. In 2007 he was presented with the John G. Wiegenstein Leadership Award by the American College of Emergency Physicians, their highest award.

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Response to iamthebandfanman (Reply #39)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 11:57 PM

210. statistically..

 

kids shouldn't run around attempting to commit crimes in the middle of the night.

And Kellermann has been pretty well exposed as, if not an outright fraud, a terrible statistician.

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Response to oberliner (Original post)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 06:13 AM

42. Sympathies to the victims mother.....she lost a son and has a complete moron for a husband

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Response to oberliner (Original post)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 06:58 AM

44. Lovely

Wives killed, children killed by parents, children killing each other, and the occasional madman killing everything in the line of fire. Yes, each of these are part of a "well regulated militia". Justice Scallia said so. OVER TURN DC VS HELLER.

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Response to oberliner (Original post)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 08:01 AM

47. Why the mask? Was he planning on assaulting the woman, and did not want to be identified?

Contrary to comic strip depictions, burglars seldom wear masks.

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Response to Tom Ripley (Reply #47)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 09:01 AM

59. And, the woman was his aunt, which makes it even creepier

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Response to Tom Ripley (Reply #47)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 04:10 PM

138. He would still be innocent until proven guilty. You don't execute people for what they MIGHT do.

Under the right circumstances, almost any of us MIGHT do a lot of things that'd be a problem of one degree or another if we got away with whatever. Shall we just detain people for what they might do, or shall we just go ahead and execute them, whenever there's an opportunity for plausible deniability?

I expect people are pretty comfortable with killing others for what they might do, because if it were otherwise, the war on an innocent and sovereign nation, known as Iraq, which killed some 5K innocent American soldiers and some 100K even MORE innocent Iraqis, would not have happened.

If it is established that the boy actually was somekind of direct mortal threat, there's still the question about a knife relative to a gun, but at least that kind of information could establish that, in this instance, it was more than what he MIGHT do.

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Response to patrice (Reply #138)

Sat Sep 29, 2012, 08:37 AM

221. So, the father should have allowed himself to be stabbed and attacked

And hope for the best he didn't die??? You do understand a knife is considered a deadly weapon, and using one in a break in or attack is aggravated, and no different than using a gun? And, it isn't like the movies, where Indiana Jones shoots the guy with the sword, nor is it like a video game, where a knife is less powerful than a gun.

If people didn't stop people from "doing what they might do," we would have an awful lot of folks allowing themselves to be killed, mugged, raped etc. It is called self defense, and it is legal. You are making self defense sound like The Minority Report.

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Response to oberliner (Original post)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 08:42 AM

53. Thank god that gun was lying around!!! Otherwise, he wouldn't have his

freedumbS.

He might have his son, of course, but his freedumbS are more important.

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Response to valerief (Reply #53)

Sat Sep 29, 2012, 08:38 AM

222. And, it appears he would also have his throat cut

And maybe his sister's, too.

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Response to oberliner (Original post)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 08:55 AM

56. Somethings not right with the fathers story...

"The father confronted someone wearing a black ski mask and black clothing and then fired his gun when the person went at him with a shiny weapon in his hand, police said. "

What kid would react that way when hearing his dads voice? First thing any kid would say is, "dad, it's me".

I think the dad shot before the kid did anything. I think he never "confronted" his son.

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Response to Javaman (Reply #56)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 09:03 AM

61. Why was the kid outside his aunt's house at 1 am trying to break in?

Dressed in a mask and black clothes? I think that is getting lost because of the shooting. That is very odd and rather creepy.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #61)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 12:13 PM

90. My thought was the kid might be a druggie and trying to rob her. nt

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Response to raccoon (Reply #90)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 12:37 PM

98. I concur. If the story is accurate (and that's a big if) it sounds just like addict behavior.

 

I've seen it too many times myself.

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #98)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 04:16 PM

139. Still doesn't justify summary execution. There has to be authentic danger to life or health. nt

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Response to patrice (Reply #139)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 04:24 PM

143. Shooting to stop a violent attacker is not "summary execution"

 

There has to be authentic danger to life or health. nt

Not true. There has to be a reasonable belief that a violent attack that could endanger life or health is imminent.

There is no reasonable way for a person who is being attacked to distinguish between "authentic danger" and whatever you are imagining doesn't qualify as that.

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #143)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 04:36 PM

147. I will take that as an assent, then, that we should shoot people for what they MIGHT do, BEFORE

we have any estimation as to the chances that they can/will in fact do it.

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Response to patrice (Reply #147)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 05:04 PM

151. It really does depend on whether someone is rushing at you with an apparent weapon

...which is what the father claims.

If he's lying, that's different.

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Response to FiveGoodMen (Reply #151)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 05:24 PM

160. Yes, like the Trayvon Martin case, how far away was this threat? Was he rushing? Even if he was

rushing, could the father have gotten out of the way?

I always wonder why one or two warning shots wouldn't stop whatever was going on.

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Response to patrice (Reply #160)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 05:30 PM

161. Yeah, I'm not taking a side on this case. I don't know enough of what really happened.

But it's only summary execution if the father saw a burglar, said to himself "screw this guy", and fired.

If he thought he was defending himself, he may have been wrong, may have overreacted, maybe shouldn't have been there in the first place, but that isn't execution.

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Response to FiveGoodMen (Reply #161)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 05:34 PM

163. I'm not either, unlike some in this thread, NOT ENOUGH INFORMATION. And yet we are to believe

that the kid was shot because he needed shooting, so don't ask any questions.

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Response to patrice (Reply #163)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 05:51 PM

168. We don't have any hard information other than what's in the news story

 

Please be patient.

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Response to patrice (Reply #160)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 05:50 PM

167. I'm sure that will all come out in George Zimmerman's trial

 

It's a red herring with respect to the present discussion.

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Response to patrice (Reply #160)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 06:08 PM

174. You never, ever fire a warning shot

And are taught not to, whether you are a civilian gun owner, a cop, or military. You should only fire if you are in immediate danger of grievous bodily injury or death, or are protecting someone from same; warning shots can harm bystanders; that is considered brandishing and is a felony (the latter is for civilians only).

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #174)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 06:25 PM

185. Funny how people who preach personal responsibility are so slavish about rules WHEN IT SERVES

their purposes.

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Response to patrice (Reply #185)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 06:47 PM

189. ???

I have no idea what you are talking about, because all I did was tell you why classes teach to never fire a warning shot, and what the laws are if you do so.

I really don't believe I deserved your response. Very odd.

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Response to patrice (Reply #160)

Sat Sep 29, 2012, 11:31 AM

238. Warning shots? Put down the Hollywood.

 

One could only wonder what you would be saying if the father had fired those warning shots and inadvertently killed his sister or another innocent far away from where this took place.

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Response to patrice (Reply #147)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 05:08 PM

154. When someone comes at you with a deadly weapon...

...you do not have to wait for them to kill you before commencing your defense.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #154)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 05:31 PM

162. That is an intentional mischaracterization. Not all threats are to kill & you don't think anyonehas

a personal responsibility to differentiate the likelihood of one type threat as compared to another type of threat. All threats are to kill, so that's another vote for killing people for things that they may or may not do and those things apparently do not have to meet any criteria of likely danger.

Sounds like very ir-responsible fire-arm "rights" to me.

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Response to patrice (Reply #162)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 06:25 PM

184. Not in that situation, no

First off, I do not own a gun, so I never have to confront that sort of dilemma.

However, someone in a ski mask prowling outside of a house at 1 AM who comes at you with a knife in their hand is not some sort of ambiguous situation in need of pondering over a glass of brandy at the fireside. That "type of threat" is an assault with a deadly weapon. It is not some recent development in defense of self defense. It is not a "likelihood", it is an assault in progress.

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Response to patrice (Reply #147)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 05:49 PM

166. I don't believe "should" is accurate. It's legally justifiable to shoot people if you REASONABLY...

 

...believe they pose a deadly threat.

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Response to patrice (Reply #147)

Sat Sep 29, 2012, 12:02 AM

211. How much damage do you insist I take before allowing me the possiblity of being at severe risk?

 

My belief is that I don't have to actually let someone injure me before I may defend myself.

You are free to choose for yourself, of course.

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Response to Javaman (Reply #56)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 09:07 AM

63. Kid coulda been high.

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Response to Brickbat (Reply #63)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 09:26 AM

64. Just so weird

The boy was dressed all in black and was masked, trying to break into his aunt's house at 1 am. WHY? Rape, theft, for fun"?

I'm not condemning a woman for calling her brother up for help, nor for a brother for thinking he's helping his sister. I am also curious if the cops had been called. Where I live, depending on weather and time of day, it takes LEOs 20-40 minutes to get to our area.

I don't know if the father just shot, or if his son tried to attack him, or what. I do know that this is an odd and tragic event, and not as cut and dried as some are making it.




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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #64)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 09:34 AM

65. I live out in the woods too, and you're right, when you need someone there NOW, it can take the

sheriff half an hour to get here. I've had incidents here at the house where it's been up to me to solve the problem -- not a neighbor, not a LEO. It changes one's perspective.

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Response to Brickbat (Reply #65)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 09:39 AM

67. I live in a suburb of a major city, and if the police get here in 20 minutes you're lucky

 

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Response to Brickbat (Reply #65)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 09:45 AM

68. Exactly

It doesn't make one a gun nut or a vigilante, or anything like that. It's just a different reality.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #64)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 08:34 PM

197. I have been high and dressed in black many times, but never while also wearing a ski mask and...

lurking outside someone's house.

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Response to Javaman (Reply #56)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 11:47 AM

80. Exactlamente

 

The desire to be Rambo is one of the key reasons the Delicate Flowers (Tom Tomorrow's term for gun nuts) keep their Precious.

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Response to oberliner (Original post)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 09:05 AM

62. It appears that the young man made some very poor choices

 

Tragic story.

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #62)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 09:49 AM

69. Either that, or you can fertilize the lawn with the father's official story...

Hopefully more facts will get uncovered and we'll have the full picture...

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #62)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 10:20 AM

70. Since we don't know what really happened

And that you're accepting the father's story unconditionally, I think it's safe to say that it appears you probably don't have the basic proper judgement and mental acuity to be trusted to own a firearm yourself.

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Response to brentspeak (Reply #70)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 10:32 AM

73. Given that no arrests have been made and no charges filed

 

I'm inclined to agree with the police officers' assessment of what happened until their investigation turns up something different.

...I think it's safe to say that it appears you probably don't have the basic proper judgement and mental acuity to be trusted to own a firearm yourself.

With your demonstrated inability to read simple English without distorting it to match your prejudices, it appears you probably don't have the basic proper judgement and mental ability to be trusted with any tool more complicated than a spork.

Please make it a plastic one for your own safety and that of others around you.

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #73)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 11:49 AM

81. Funny stuff

 

Standard post #34 from gun-lovers: "Can't trust the cops, gotta defend yourself"

Standard post #35 from gun-lovers: "Gotta trust the cops, no arrests have been made"

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Response to bongbong (Reply #81)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 11:54 AM

84. And of course we also have the typical knee-jerk reactions from cop haters and gun haters...

 

"The guy used a gun, so he must be guilty of murder,"

"The cops are in on the Conspiracy to protect the shooter,"

"Gun owners are evil people who murder their own children..."

And then there is laughing at one's own jokes.

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #84)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 11:57 AM

87. More funnies

 

> And then there is laughing at one's own jokes.

I'm not laughing at "my own joke", I'm laughing at the double standards and inconsistent/contradictory "arguments" that Delicate Flowers in the DU Gun Lobby post.

You might want to read my post before responding to it in the future.

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Response to bongbong (Reply #81)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 12:03 PM

89. The truth will come out sooner or later

 

And you will be on the wrong side of it as usual.

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #89)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 12:16 PM

91. Dopes

 

> And you will be on the wrong side of it as usual.

Just like the people in that theatre in Aurora were on the wrong side?

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Response to bongbong (Reply #81)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 04:26 PM

144. That's what I was just going to say. "Lawn order is all fucked up in this country. Arm yourselves!"

suddently becomes "Trust DOJ et al and whatever," when it serves a political purpose.

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Response to patrice (Reply #144)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 06:07 PM

173. Yep

 

When you shine a light at NRA Talking Points, they evaporate like the meaningless lies they are.

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Response to patrice (Reply #144)

Mon Oct 1, 2012, 06:10 PM

269. If it's lawn order you want, the appropriate weapon would be a mower

 

Which is also the perfect way to defend against a sward.

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #269)

Mon Oct 1, 2012, 06:34 PM

270. he, he, old joke from the '60s, but I'm gonna have to go look "sward" up, you got

me on that one!

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Response to brentspeak (Reply #70)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 12:33 PM

97. Do you think it's more likely the father just murdered his son for no reason

 

then made up the whole story and got his neighbor to be an accomplice in this filicide?

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Response to 4th law of robotics (Reply #97)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 12:51 PM

101. That makes more sense than a dope-head teenager making stupid decisons and getting himself killed

 

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #101)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 12:58 PM

107. You're thinking too small

 

I can't prove it yet because they're hiding something but I suspect this goes all the way to the top.

This took place in Connecticut right? You know who else shares that time zone? That's right. The president of the united states.

Not seeming so simple and obvious anymore is it?

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Response to oberliner (Original post)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 09:37 AM

66. The father adopted Tyler when Tyler was in his fifth grade class

When the boy's grandmother could no longer care for him.

Just some additional info I just read online. May or may not have something to do with anything.

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Response to oberliner (Original post)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 10:22 AM

71. Odd, I don't see the gungeon crowd here...

... touting the glories of guns. How peculiar.

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Response to primavera (Reply #71)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 10:27 AM

72. That's because the only people who tout the glories of guns are people who don't like guns

 

They do it sarcastically.

Honest people who sincerely support the right to keep and bear arms understand that owning and using a gun carries tremendous moral responsibility.

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #72)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 10:38 AM

74. They certainly had me fooled

Recognition of tremendous moral responsibility is something I have rarely seen in the gun community. All I ever hear are declarations of one's right to keep and bear arms and how gun-related tragedies are freak aberrations and the fault of other people. "Responsibility" is a word that virtually never enters into such conversations. I wish it did.

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Response to primavera (Reply #74)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 10:40 AM

75. That's because you read selectively, and have a strong bias against people who own and use guns

 

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #75)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 10:48 AM

77. It's certainly possible

I will make more of a point to keep my eyes peeled for those threads in which gun owners express their outrage at the 30,000 gun deaths each year and seek to apply their creativity to finding ways to make guns safer and out of the hands of persons unwilling/unable to handle them safely and responsibly. Just to be on the safe side, though, I won't hold my breath.

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Response to primavera (Reply #77)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 11:52 AM

82. I have made several concrete suggestions for that dozens of times on DU, and they rarely get noticed

 

Here's a sample:

- Make the NICS background check system available to non-federal firearms licensees who have used guns to sell. That way anyone who sells a gun to someone who turns out to be prohibited from owning it can be presumed to have known about the buyer's prohibited status.

- Federal tax credits for people who buy robust gun storage devices, such as safes.

- Teaching the basics of firearm safety in public schools. Just a single one-hour lesson can open up a young person's eyes - I have done this myself.

- Federal incentives to the states to improve reporting of mental incompetence adjudications, misdemeanor convictions, and other events that make a person ineligible to have a firearm.

- Actively disarm people who are put under restraining orders for domestic violence.

I've posted all of these ideas and many more on DU repeatedly. When I do get replies, they usually consist of "Yeah, but..." and silly accusations that I'm a paid NRA shill.

It's pretty frustrating, actually. If you post something rational and logical on DU, you can expect to be ignored.

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #82)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 12:54 PM

103. I know you have, slackmaster

Which is why I always take your posts seriously, and even agree with many of them. But I tend to think of you as the exception rather than the rule. Perhaps I do other gun right proponents an injustice, though. I will keep my eyes open.

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Response to primavera (Reply #103)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 12:55 PM

104. Thank you. I ALWAYS appreciate a courteous, rational discussion with people even if we disagree.

 

On any subject, not just guns.

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #82)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 04:33 PM

146. +1 & What about SYG? which may be relevant in this case . . . nt

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #82)

Sat Sep 29, 2012, 12:00 PM

240. Those are all very good suggestions. But the gun issue, like this case, is a hot-button issue.

There is so little information in this story that we are left to speculate on the motivations and details. The better our imagination, the more lurid it becomes. Sloppy reporting or short budgets, whatever the reason, there is no analysis or detail.

It would appear this happened in the heat of the moment, when reactions and not reflection rules. We may never know what really happened, or the intentions of any of the parties involved were.

The story heading naturally brings the reader to an emotional level because of the concern people have for their families. Gun accidents and crimes and other fatalities are a daily event in a nation of over 300 million people. We just got a small view through a tiny portal into one of them.

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Response to primavera (Reply #77)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 11:52 AM

83. Great job

 

It's SOOOOOO easy to get the Delicate Flowers (Tom Tomorrow's term for gun-nuts) all riled up.

Just post something along the lines of "Your Precious is not a flowers-and-candy dispensing rainbow unicorn!".

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Response to oberliner (Original post)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 11:00 AM

78. As noted upthread, I am a local where this happened...

I don't live in New Fairfield, but in an adjacent town, and I do shop and do business there frequently. The real estate agent from whom we bought our home is based only a few blocks from where this tragedy took place. New Fairfield is a very small town (population-wise), but geographically quite large, and has no full-time town police department. Instead, they have a "resident trooper" from the CT State Police. Therefore, response is usually a bit slower than with a regular PD, so that easily explains, in addition to them being relatives living directly next door, why the woman called her brother instead of 911. Absolutely no mystery and no surprise in that.

Local investigators are still not saying anything, as of the press conference held about an hour ago, about why the kid was out at 1:00 a.m., dressed in black, with a ski-mask on, or why he was apparently trying to break into his aunt's house, which, again, is next door to his own home. The father is a well-respected teacher at the middle school, and the boy was a sophomore in high school. There is apparently a big trend locally with young teens sneaking out of the house at all hours for mischief purposes. Have no idea what, if anything, this may have had to do with what happened in this situation. Whatever happened, a young teen is dead, his father, from what I've heard from other townies, is distraught to the point of being suicidal, and the town is in shock. The whole situation is horrid on more levels than I care to count. If anyone is interested, I'll share what I hear when updates occur.

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Response to MANative (Reply #78)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 11:02 AM

79. Thanks for the info

Definitely a lot of questions remain unanswered at this point.

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Response to MANative (Reply #78)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 11:55 AM

85. Solutions

 

> Whatever happened, a young teen is dead, his father, from what I've heard from other townies, is distraught to the point of being suicidal

There's an easy solution for preventing multitudes of similar incidents in the future.

Don't buy a gun.

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Response to bongbong (Reply #85)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 02:16 PM

118. Just call the cops!

 

That way no one would have died here.

Because cops are unarmed and would never shoot someone dressed in all black that lunges at them with a weapon when confronted committing a crime.

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Response to 4th law of robotics (Reply #118)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 03:00 PM

121. Who are you responding to?

 

Ah, the old "cops are worthless" Strawman. It's Standard Strawman #28 in the NRA Talking Points Manual

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Response to bongbong (Reply #121)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 03:43 PM

127. Ah the old pretend they said cops are worthless strawman

 

It's Standard Strawman #28 in the Brady Campaign Talking Points Manual

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Response to 4th law of robotics (Reply #127)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 04:20 PM

141. LOL

 

You wanna link to a Delicate Flower saying "don't depend on cops to help you"?

From this thread or the 1,442 other gun threads that feature such a post?

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Response to bongbong (Reply #141)

Sat Sep 29, 2012, 11:02 AM

231. I have a fire extinguisher and smoke detectors in my house

 

because the fire department can't be counted on in every incidence to get there in time.

This proves: THE FIRE DEPARTMENT IS WORTHLESS!

Ha! Weak arguments rely on strawmen.

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Response to 4th law of robotics (Reply #231)

Mon Oct 1, 2012, 12:48 PM

261. LOL

 

> Ha! Weak arguments rely on strawmen.

Exactly. Your analogy is filled with fail. Fire extinguishers don't equal guns by any stretch of the imagination.

Keep Trying! You Delicate Flowers NEED your guns to gather up enough bravery to walk out the door!

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Response to bongbong (Reply #261)

Mon Oct 1, 2012, 12:53 PM

262. Keep displaying that winning wit

 

that drove Americans away from your cause by the millions.

See, that's why all you have are snarky comments and smilies. Because you know you lost. Not a little bit. Not after a fair fight that could have gone either way. Your side lost entirely and permanently and will never again be taken seriously in American politics. Your great victories have included getting Democrats to lose certain key victories. Even parading around the still warm bodies of some gun massacre illicit only an eyeroll from the general populace.


So enjoy your snark. Because you unequivocally lost.

Have a nice day.

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Response to 4th law of robotics (Reply #262)

Mon Oct 1, 2012, 12:55 PM

263. More laughs

 

> hat drove Americans away from your cause by the millions.

Wow! I'm responsible for all that?



BTW, that's NRA Talking Point #23 you're parroting - "America hates gun control!" Nice job with your echo chamber.

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Response to 4th law of robotics (Reply #118)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 04:53 PM

149. K, but someone is carrying a gun, ergo, there is a probability that something COULD happen that the

cops are going to be part of one way or another anyway.

Why not give one's self and your neighbor that extra LEGAL insurance for whatever goes down outside in the dark? especially since, with gun involvement, the probabilities are at least 50:50 that you're going to need the cops anyway.

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Response to patrice (Reply #149)

Sat Sep 29, 2012, 11:04 AM

232. Because it takes time to call the cops

 

It's pretty easy for someone to be murdered in the minute or so it takes to find your cellphone, call the cops, and describe what's happening.

If a dog was chewing on your leg would your first response be to kick him off or call animal control? Why not call the pros first?

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Response to patrice (Reply #149)

Sat Sep 29, 2012, 11:18 AM

236. "When you have only seconds, the police are minutes away."

And, it is generally NOT the fault of LEOs that this is true. Budget cuts are eliminating patrols and shuttering sub stations and Statie barracks. Some small towns, such as New Fairfield, don't have a police force or presence.

Rural residents sometimes have a 20-60+-minute wait for law enforcement to arrive, and even urban areas can have a decent wait, because of traffic, 911 being overwhelmed, and RIFing.

This story is a true Greek Tragedy, but I cannot fault the father for wanting to protect his sister, especially since THE NIGHT BEFORE there had been a home invasion where a woman was raped and robbed in their area. I think, and hope, everyone of us would want to protect our family, and understand why this guy picked up his gun and went to investigate, and maybe stop his sister from being raped or killed before the State Troopers got there.

And, 911 had been called, so I hope posters PLEASE quit saying 911 hadn't been contacted. I don't know how that "fact" started.

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Response to MANative (Reply #78)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 12:40 PM

99. Thank you so much for the info -- please do keep us updated

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Response to MANative (Reply #78)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 04:43 PM

148. The fact that she didn't call 911 could also mean she didn't think it that serious. If she had

thought there was a chance that it's go very bad, even if the police were slow, she'd have wanted them there eventually to deal with whatever really bad thing happened. She didn't do that and that seems to suggest she didn't think whatever was happening would likely result is serious violence.

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Response to patrice (Reply #148)

Sat Sep 29, 2012, 08:41 AM

223. She did call 911 -- I have no idea why so many posters say she didn't

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Response to oberliner (Original post)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 12:48 PM

100. Why did she call the neighbor instead of calling the police?

This is Connecticut not the tundra.

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Response to Fearless (Reply #100)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 12:53 PM

102. Obviously she and the police are all part of a conspiracy to murder that poor child

 

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #102)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 01:08 PM

108. In holding to emotional ties to the gun issue you missed my point entirely.

I did not say she was responsible. I said, she lacked common sense.

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Response to Fearless (Reply #108)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 01:16 PM

109. Do you think the police could have gotten to her house more quickly than her next-door neighbor?

 

We don't know the extent of her relationship with the man. Maybe she knows him well and trusts him. It's good having neighbors like that.

I've had my next-door neighbor call me when she thought she saw someone rummaging through my trash. It turned out to be my cat.

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #109)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 01:35 PM

110. They would have had better firearm usage, that much is clear.

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Response to Fearless (Reply #110)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 01:40 PM

111. You believe the police would NOT have shot a masked person lunging at them while clutching...

 

...a shiny object at night?

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Response to Fearless (Reply #110)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 02:15 PM

117. A) that is very often not the case

 

remember the cops in NYC who shot, what was it, 8 bystanders recently?
B) the cops would have done the exact same thing if someone had lunged at them with a weapon.

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Response to 4th law of robotics (Reply #117)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 06:22 PM

182. In this case it couldn't have ended worse.

Your point is moot.

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Response to Fearless (Reply #182)

Sat Sep 29, 2012, 11:06 AM

233. Sure it could have

 

The dad could have been stabbed to death in front of his sister then the kid gets gunned down by the cops.

So yeah, that would be worse. Not so?

Also what do you think the cops would have done if someone lunged at them with what appeared to be a weapon? Consider that the news is full of stories of people being gunned down by the cops after reaching for a wallet in clear daylight.

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Response to Fearless (Reply #110)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 05:03 PM

150. It isn't necessarily about the cops using firearms, but also about their LEGAL capacity to deal

with whatever happened in a dangerous situation.

If you think someone could get seriously hurt, you'd want to protect your own legal situation by getting the cops there as soon as possible, even if it is too late, you're may be going to need them anyway, so you'd call them after you call your neighbor with the gun.


Not calling the cops suggests that one doesn't think the threat to one's self is likely and serious enough to need recourse to law.

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Response to patrice (Reply #150)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 05:10 PM

157. Why do you believe she didn't call the cops?


There is no information to the effect that she did not call the police.

Where are you getting this idea that she didn't call the police?

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #157)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 05:18 PM

159. True. When the police call was made is a question. That information isn't in the story. nt

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #157)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 06:17 PM

177. The cops were called

I don't understand why people keep saying they weren't.

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Response to patrice (Reply #150)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 05:54 PM

171. People who aren't cops have a legal right to defend themselves in a dangerous situation

 

If you think someone could get seriously hurt, you'd want to protect your own legal situation by getting the cops there as soon as possible, even if it is too late, you're may be going to need them anyway, so you'd call them after you call your neighbor with the gun.

That's why self-defense classes always teach you to call the police immediately after you have been in a fight involving the use of deadly force.

All self-defense classes, including ones that teach the use of empty hands as well as those that teach weapons.

Not calling the cops suggests that one doesn't think the threat to one's self is likely and serious enough to need recourse to law.

Obviously in the story we're discussing someone did call the police.

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #171)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 06:19 PM

180. No one's disputing that. The question is: do they have a personal responsibility to assess how

much danger they are in, or is all danger equally likely to result in their death or significant harm, especially given significant disparity in, as in this case, a gun compared to a knife (or even way less than that in many instances).

Not disputing gun-owning rights here, just gun-owning responsibilities. How is it that courts of law MUST abide by "innocent unless proven guilty" but anyone owning anykind of gun may summarily decide "guilty" on very little more than their own say so?

Increased power entails increased responsibility to get it right, don't you think? And if that's not the case, then why would gun-owners or anyone else, for that matter, have many rights at all, since there is no basis for a basic right upon which many other rights depend, that being a right to safety beyond who shoots first/best in an appropriate plausibly deniable situation?

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Response to patrice (Reply #180)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 06:44 PM

187. Sometimes you don't have a lot of time to make that assessment

 

Increased power entails increased responsibility to get it right, don't you think?

Of course it does.

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Response to Fearless (Reply #110)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 06:16 PM

176. I disagree with you there

Cops are notoriously bad shots and bad at gun safety, including the several LEOs I have in my extended family.

Regardless of all of that, the neighbor was her brother, and the Staties were called. That area has no police or sheriff, just a State Trooper who patrols a wide area.

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Response to Fearless (Reply #110)

Sat Sep 29, 2012, 12:09 AM

212. Just like in NYC, amirite? n/t

 

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Response to Fearless (Reply #100)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 12:57 PM

106. Read my post above - #78

The neighbor is her brother, and there is no full-time police dept. in New Fairfield.

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Response to Fearless (Reply #100)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 04:08 PM

137. Trooper was probably home and asleep

said upthread New Fairfield has a Resident State Trooper for coverage. Thats 40hrs a week on duty in the area and many more at home watching football, sleeping etc. while on call. And when he/she is away somebody from the regional barracks has to come out. Many times it might e quicker to get a cop from neighboring Brookfield to drive over.

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Response to Fearless (Reply #100)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 06:12 PM

175. The neighbor is her brother

And, the cops WERE called. I don't get why so many posters are saying they weren't called.

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Response to oberliner (Original post)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 02:09 PM

114. This is a very sad story. nt

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Response to yeswecanandwedid (Reply #114)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 06:18 PM

179. Yes

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Response to oberliner (Original post)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 02:19 PM

119. I don't believe the kid really attacked his father.

Not saying it's impossible, just unlikely. He would have known it was his father but his father would not have known it was him. This looks like a case of "shoot first, ask questions later"

Whatever happened, it's a very tragic story.

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Response to Ash_F (Reply #119)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 03:46 PM

128. why not shoot attackers in the leg or something. why shoot to kill?

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Reply #128)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 03:53 PM

131. I don't know how easy that is but I bet the dad wishes he didn't shoot at all now. /nt

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Reply #128)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 04:21 PM

142. Every firearm class I've taken has stressed aiming for center of mass, but to shoot only...

 

...when you are sure that you have no other way to STOP an attack.

You NEVER shoot to kill. Shooting someone with intent to kill is murder.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Reply #128)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 05:07 PM

153. +++1 Even if you miss, you express serious intent that will mean something significant to yourtarget

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Reply #128)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 05:17 PM

158. Another thing to consider is that shooting someone in the leg could still quickly kill them.

...if it hits the femoral artery. So I don't know if you can consider aiming at someone's leg any less severe an act of violence. I am no firearms expert but you should probably not shoot at someone at all unless you intend to kill them.

Even firing a warning shot could go wrong. I have read at least one story in my town where it has.

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Reply #128)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 06:22 PM

181. You never shoot to wound

A civilian should NEVER shoot a gun unless they are in imminent danger of death or grievous bodily harm. "winging" someone is: dangerous to yourself and bystanders, almost impossible to do, and also can be a felony.

You don't shoot to wound, you shoot to kill, because you only pull that trigger if you are in fear of death, rape, etc., or are (in many states) protecting someone else. In my state, shooting someone for taking property (excluding home invasion) will get you prison time.

Gun ownership comes with great responsibility, and everyone should take a safety class, as well as a CCW class, even if you don't want the permit. It's very educational.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #181)

Sun Sep 30, 2012, 06:34 PM

257. No, you do NOT "shoot to kill", you shoot to stop the threat.

 

If the threat stops short of death, you stop shooting (or, possibly, don't shoot at all).

Sometimes it takes the death of a criminal attacker to stop a threat. This is sad and regretable, but the alternative would be worse.

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Response to PavePusher (Reply #257)

Sun Sep 30, 2012, 06:47 PM

258. My CCW instructor said if you pull your gun, you are committing to killing

someone, not wounding, so if the threat you have if not one that means you will shoot to kill, then your gin should not be drawn and aimed. He was a ten-year Army sniper. The attorney who taught the morning session said the same basic thing.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #258)

Mon Oct 1, 2012, 04:45 PM

265. If you walk into a courtroom with that, the prosecution will be very happy with you.

 

I suggest you read some Massad Ayoob, if you have not already done so.

'Willing to kill if needed' and 'intent on killing' are very different things both morally and legally.

And I will re-iterate and expand a bit: You are shooting to stop a threat. You aim center-of-mass because it is the easiest target, and safest target (for the shooter and any bystanders). It is also the likeliest to incapacitate the attacker the fastest. If the threat stops, you stop shooting. If this results only in the wounding of the attacker, fine. If it results in the death of the attacker, that was their own choice to make and they chose poorly. If the shooting only wounds the attacker, but causes them to stop the attack, you do not continue to shoot until the attacker is dead. That will be murder almost anywhere.

Is that clearer?

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Response to Ash_F (Reply #119)

Sat Sep 29, 2012, 06:54 AM

216. Why do you believe he would have known it was his father?

We don't know the circumstances of what exactly happened nor in what time frame. The kid may certainly not have known it was his father. It was dark. The father may have come upon him suddenly, the kid panicked, and attacked what he may have believed was just some strange man who had caught him trying to break into the house. Maybe the kid was on drugs and that further muddled rational thinking.

Then again, maybe he DID know it was his father and attacked him anyway or was attempting to feign an attack in order to get away and not be identified. We don't know the relationship between the kid and his father, and we do know that the kid was unfeeling enough to decide to break into his aunt's house to burglarize rather than some stranger's and crass enough also to choose the house next door to his own. Who knows what the kid was thinking. Clearly, he didn't think rationally in choosing to rob not only the house next door to his own but his own aunt's.

In any case, in the heat of the moment I think it is certainly plausible that the kid didn't know it was his father, did know it was and tried to attack him anyway or did know it was his father and attempted to feign an attack as a means to get away without being identified. Personally, I don't think the kid was thinking at all rationally and lashed out at a man he didn't realize in the instant and in the dark and in the panic of the moment that the man was his own father.

As for "shoot first, ask questions later", if some black clad and masked burglar that I've just caught breaking into my sister's house comes at me with what I believe is a knife or other shiny weapon which certainly could be a gun, I'm certainly not going to risk my life in asking any questions first. Frankly, I think that anyone who thinks that to be prudent or even possible for the average person in such a terrifying and life threatening circumstance is blowing smoke.


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Response to TorchTheWitch (Reply #216)

Sat Sep 29, 2012, 01:36 PM

245. There are plenty of cases where someone defended themselves with a gun without shooting.

Last edited Sat Sep 29, 2012, 02:37 PM - Edit history (1)

In fact, that is cited as the most common scenario. I think your scenario is possible but I also think the more likely one is that the father simply chose to shoot right away. I bet he wishes he had taken that extra second now.

Have there been any reports on what the weapon might have been(the kids)? That would be pretty key.

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Response to Ash_F (Reply #245)

Sat Sep 29, 2012, 04:15 PM

248. the weapon was a knife that was still in the kid's hand when police arrived

For whatever reason his son lunged at him brandishing a knife. I have a hard time believing that the kid knew it was his father that caught him and that he panicked and attacked. I can't fault the father for shooting who he thought was a stranger burglar who lunged at him with a knife especially if they were at close range to one another. I also understand him believing it was likely the same person who burglarized and raped a woman in the neighborhood the night before.

I never can understand why the conclusion of any shooting is that the shooter must have been "trigger happy". I don't happen to believe that every person that uses a gun must be some kind of nut that desperately wants to shoot someone. It's perfectly reasonable that an unknown person clad in black, wearing a ski mask who tries to burglarize a loved one's home and lunges at them with a knife should be met with deadly force. And I DO fault someone who is stupid enough to burglarize a home while clad in black and wearing a ski mask who lunges at someone with a knife to not expect to be met with deadly force. I think it's bizarre in the extreme to assume that someone who tries to knife me to death has more of a right to their life than I have a right to my own. Frankly, I'd really like to know why anyone expects that someone who is seconds away from killing me should be dealt with delicately.

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Response to oberliner (Original post)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 03:55 PM

132. What I Want to Know is......

Why does almost everyone on this thread blindly believe the story given by the dad and his sister?

The guy could be totally lying. The story sounds so off to me, that my opinion is that he is lying. He had no business going outside and over to his neighbor's house brandishing a gun anyway, that's what 911 is for! What is this? Shoot first and ask questions later? Kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out? Their concocted story stinks.

The dad should be charged and so should his sister. I don't think this is going to end up going down very well.

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Response to Megahurtz (Reply #132)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 04:28 PM

145. I tentatively believe it, because I have no other source of hard information about the event

 

He had no business going outside and over to his neighbor's house brandishing a gun anyway, that's what 911 is for!

When you need help within seconds, the police are only tens of minutes away.

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Response to Megahurtz (Reply #132)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 05:10 PM

156. It's at least as possible that he could have shot his sister, isn't it? Even if one just has to

carry a gun, you'd think the realization that you could shoot your sister would temper your trigger finger a little.

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Response to patrice (Reply #156)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 06:45 PM

188. Everyone who owns a gun should understand the basic rules of safe gun handling

 

That includes being sure of your target and the backdrop before you fire.

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Response to oberliner (Original post)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 03:57 PM

134. Ugh. I was really hoping this wasn't true when I saw the title. . .

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Response to oberliner (Original post)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 05:10 PM

155. Local news update...

The boy was armed with a knife, and cops say he lunged at his father when he was confronted about trying to break into his aunt's house. He was shot "multiple times." There is still a lot missing from this story, IMO.

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Response to MANative (Reply #155)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 06:24 PM

183. Thanks for the update -- which makes me very sad

Because the young man was armed with an actual deadly weapon. That would be aggravated breaking and entering here, which is a huge felony.

That's one little piece of the puzzle.

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Response to MANative (Reply #155)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 07:03 PM

191. I saw this on WVIT tonight.

The father was a teacher in New Fairfield at the elementary school there and lots of kids seemed to really like "Mr. G."

I wonder what the mental state of this boy was. It is just so sad. And the father was on alert because a woman in town had someone break into her house a day before, robbery and assault. I agree, we need to know more.

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Response to oberliner (Original post)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 05:55 PM

172. I raed there had been a robbery and rape in the area the day before

This was, however, in a comments section. Has anyone read or heard this in news media?

I am not saying Tyler did that, but it would make his aunt even more terrified about having someone try to break in at 1 am.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #172)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 07:09 PM

192. I don't think they said what the nature of the assault was.

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Response to Jennicut (Reply #192)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 10:09 PM

206. Glad to know the comment wasn't just made up crazy stuff

You never know!

Thanks so much for the local info and updates.

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Response to oberliner (Original post)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 06:18 PM

178. one of many reasons i would not want a Gun

the kid was still OUTSIDE the house. i would have called the police. even if it was a relative i wouldn't want them out to confront the person if the suspicious person is still outside.

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Response to JI7 (Reply #178)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 06:27 PM

186. Law enforcement was called

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Response to oberliner (Original post)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 08:20 PM

195. What was this shiny weapon, a screwdriver, putty knife,

knife gun, Pez dispenser, a box of Skittles or did he have anything?

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Response to doc03 (Reply #195)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 08:38 PM

198. Apparently it was a knife.

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Response to LisaL (Reply #198)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 08:49 PM

199. I think I read all the posts on this and I didn't

see anything other than the guy claimed he came after him with a shiny weapon. I suspect the shooter may have even planted a weapon after the shooting to cover his own ass.

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Response to doc03 (Reply #199)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 08:55 PM

200. Well I read other articles not just what on the thread.


"Lieutenant J. Paul Vance said that Tyler was found with obvious gunshot wounds and was holding a weapon. Police later specified that the "weapon in possession of the deceased at the time of this incident was determined by troopers to be a knife.""

http://abcnews.go.com/US/police-masked-teen-killed-dad-knife/story?id=17349516#.UGY4sq7wGSo

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Response to doc03 (Reply #199)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 09:02 PM

201. Masked teen killed by his father had a knife, Connecticut police say

When police officers arrived, Tyler was lying dead in the driveway with a knife in his hand, and his father, in T-shirt and shorts, was sitting on the grass.

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Response to doc03 (Reply #199)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 10:06 PM

204. Then you didn;t read all teh posts, because it was a knife

A couple posters in this thread are from the area, and the authorities have said Tyler was armed with a knife.

You are saying the father planted a weapon on his son, when he didn't even know it was his son until the cops arrived?

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Response to oberliner (Original post)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 08:28 PM

196. The father knew it was someone's son before he fired.

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Response to slampoet (Reply #196)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 09:14 PM

203. Adolf Hitler was someone's son, too

 

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Response to slampoet (Reply #196)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 10:07 PM

205. And the woman he knew he was trying to protect was his sister

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Response to oberliner (Original post)

Fri Sep 28, 2012, 10:13 PM

207. Very sad

I wonder if the dad was related to Joe Horn of Texas?

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Response to Catherine Vincent (Reply #207)

Sat Sep 29, 2012, 12:14 AM

213. That's some sick, vile crap.

 

For one thing, the son here apparently attacked his father with a knife.

Reading comprehension: yours is awful.

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Response to PavePusher (Reply #213)

Sat Sep 29, 2012, 09:38 AM

226. Joe Horn Got Plenty Of Support From DU Gun Enthusiasts.


I remember those threads concerning Joe Horn---talk about "some sick, vile crap"......

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Response to Paladin (Reply #226)

Sat Sep 29, 2012, 09:39 AM

227. What crime was Joe Horn charged with?

 

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #227)

Sat Sep 29, 2012, 10:53 AM

228. And Your Point Is.....? (nt)

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Response to Paladin (Reply #228)

Sat Sep 29, 2012, 11:10 AM

235. He did nothing wrong, so there is nothing wrong with "supporting" him

 

Whatever that means.

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #235)

Sat Sep 29, 2012, 11:34 AM

239. That's Just Sad, Slack. (nt)

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #235)

Sat Sep 29, 2012, 01:37 PM

246. He killed two guys who were no threat to him. And got away with it.

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Response to Comrade Grumpy (Reply #246)

Sun Sep 30, 2012, 12:23 PM

253. What he did is legal in Texas. The two thieves he killed knew they were risking their lives.

 

They made some poor choices.

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Response to Catherine Vincent (Reply #207)

Sat Sep 29, 2012, 08:23 AM

218. Except the situations aren't remotely the same, are they?

No.

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Response to oberliner (Original post)

Sat Sep 29, 2012, 01:13 AM

214. I am appalled at all the people who are implying that the son deserved it

because he was allegedly burglarizing his aunt's house.

Burglary is not a capital crime in any state that I know of.

And the father is probably one of those hotheads like the one who killed the Japanese exchange student trick or treater in Louisiana a few years back or the off-duty cop who killed a Labrador retriever that ran after him while he was out jogging in a suburb of Portland a few more years back.

Even if he was burglarizing, stuff is just...Stuff. It can be replaced. But this man will have to live with the fact that he was an impulsive vigilante wannabe who learned the hard way that "shoot first and ask questions later" is not a good idea in real life.

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Response to Lydia Leftcoast (Reply #214)

Sat Sep 29, 2012, 02:39 AM

215. Aye if he was a decent father

He would have let his masked son cut his throat, but no....

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Response to Riftaxe (Reply #215)

Sat Sep 29, 2012, 08:33 AM

220. Woudl it have been better for the father to have been stabbed to death?

No one who is denouncing the dad is answering that.

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Response to Lydia Leftcoast (Reply #214)

Sat Sep 29, 2012, 08:07 AM

217. Not one reply in this entire thread suggests that burglary calls for summary execution

 

Please read the story, and read the replies more carefully.

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #217)

Mon Oct 1, 2012, 01:36 PM

264. Yeah, But You Fixed That With Your Reply #253.


Thanks for nothing.

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Response to Lydia Leftcoast (Reply #214)

Sat Sep 29, 2012, 08:31 AM

219. There had been a breakin and rape the night before, in the same area

His sister lived alone, and called him at 1 am to say someone was trying to break in. The man went out and, from what I've read, almost literally ran into a masked burglar armed with a knife and dressed in black, trying to get into his sister's home. The armed, masked man lunged, the father shot.

Theft of property isn't a capital crime, and it is illegal in my state to shoot someone for stealing. That does not extend to home invasions and someone attacking you with a deadly weapon. THAT is why the man shot, because he was attacked by a knife-wielding masked man.

Did the kid deserve to die? I never said that. However, if ANYONE does what he did, you have to expect certain outcomes. It wasn't as if the young man was breaking into a car to jack the radio, was it? He was masked and armed and trying to break into a home at 1 am, in the same area where the night before a woman had been raped during a break in, and the home being broken into was his aunt's, where she lived alone.

If he had done that to a cop, he also would have been shot.

And, the cops had been called. People who keep saying they hadn't been called are mistaken.

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Response to Lydia Leftcoast (Reply #214)

Sat Sep 29, 2012, 01:08 PM

243. You seem to be trying to turn back-flips to avoid....

 

The father confronted someone wearing a black ski mask and black clothing and then fired his gun when the person went at him with a shiny weapon in his hand, police said.

...and the later posts that confirm police discovery of a knife in the hand of the dead son.

So the fact is, no-one was shot for burglary.

He was shot for making a lethal attack on his father.

Tragic? Yes.

Avoidable? Yep. Don't wear masks, scare the shit out of innocent people and then attack them with lethal weapons.

But this man will have to live with the fact that he was an impulsive vigilante wannabe who learned the hard way that "shoot first and ask questions later" is not a good idea in real life.

Utterly false premise. Did you do that on purpose, or just misread the facts about this incident?

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Response to PavePusher (Reply #243)

Sat Sep 29, 2012, 04:01 PM

247. I stand by my statement that

"shoot first and ask questions later" is a bad idea.

All sorts of people have been killed because someone with a gun jumped to conclusions.

Maybe if a person has a gun, they're more likely to project their aggressive feelings and believe that everyone else is dangerous, too.

I used to be a mod in the Gun Dungeon many years ago, and far from persuading me that guns were wonderful, my observation of that crowd (I rarely participated) persuaded me that most of the ardent gun advocates were either absurdly scared of the rest of the world or aggressive he-man wannabes who projected their own meanness onto other people and considered everyone else to be a potential threat.

It is an aspect of this society that Europeans and Japanese (who experienced REAL tyrannies in living memory) cannot understand.

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Response to Lydia Leftcoast (Reply #247)

Sat Sep 29, 2012, 06:42 PM

249. A person with a knife attacked a man, who then defended himself with a firearm.

 

That is not at all "shoot first and ask questions later" or "jumped to conclusions" and your attempt to so distort it is extremely dishonest and classic avoidance behavior.

Maybe if a person has a gun, they're more likely to project their aggressive feelings and believe that everyone else is dangerous, too.

Right... and maybe if a person who is the intended victim of a knife attack simply smiled and offered to hug the attacker everything would be rainbows and kittens? Naw, I'm not buying it.

...most of the ardent gun advocates were either absurdly scared of the rest of the world or aggressive he-man wannabes who projected their own meanness onto other people and considered everyone else to be a potential threat.

There's certainly some projecting going on there, but not in the direction you assert. Some stereotyping too, if mine eyes do not deceive me...

It is an aspect of this society that Europeans and Japanese (who experienced REAL tyrannies in living memory) cannot understand.

I lived in central Africa for 3 years, Japan for 3 years and England for 7 1/2 years. They can "not understand" all they want (although many actually do), that has no bearing on the subject. One of the reasons we keep and respect our right to arms is to prevent that tyranny from ever taking hold, and to fight it off if it does. (If you think it can't be done... wel, then you haven't paid attention to recent international events.)

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Response to PavePusher (Reply #249)

Sat Sep 29, 2012, 11:09 PM

251. According to the Hartford Courant article: "Opened fire...shot multiple times"

And people with your gun-worshipping attitude are one reason why I asked not to be assigned to the Gun Dungeon again.

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Response to Lydia Leftcoast (Reply #251)

Sun Sep 30, 2012, 12:08 PM

252. What is your point?

 

If you tried any harder to ignore "attacked with a knife", your reality distortion field is going to collapse.

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Response to PavePusher (Reply #252)

Sun Sep 30, 2012, 05:00 PM

255. Because if you're threatened you don't try to avoid it first--

you just open fire and fill the possible threat with bullets?

That's our country's foreign policy in a nutshell!

But there's no convincing a gun worshipper, so I'll bid farewell to this thread. You go ahead and feel righteous.

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Response to Lydia Leftcoast (Reply #255)

Sun Sep 30, 2012, 06:31 PM

256. I certainly don't feel "righteous", as this was an utter tragedy.

 

But feel free to project as you wish.

Have a great day, and don't let reality get in your way.

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Response to Lydia Leftcoast (Reply #255)

Mon Oct 1, 2012, 05:00 PM

267. P.S. Someone attacking another person with a knife is NOT a "possible threat"....

 

it is a lethal attack in progress, i.e. an "actual threat".

Words have meanings.

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Response to Lydia Leftcoast (Reply #251)

Sun Oct 14, 2012, 10:14 PM

272. It's Simple I place the knife in his hand.

 

For some reason I think this kind was a peeping tom.

Of course he could have been the rape guy they say, but his own aunt??

Fishy to say the least.

Anyhow I am sure the Dad now wishes he wasn't so gung ho about shooting people first and asking questions later.

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Response to oberliner (Original post)

Sat Sep 29, 2012, 11:00 AM

230. New article from Hartford Courant with some good info

Including, as many of us said, 911 HAD been called, and the officers arrived very soon after the shooting.


http://www.courant.com/community/new-fairfield/hc-new-fairfield-shooting-0928-20120927,0,3870995.story

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Response to oberliner (Original post)

Sat Sep 29, 2012, 11:08 AM

234. Ugh, that's just awful. American Beauty redux. nt

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Response to oberliner (Original post)

Sat Sep 29, 2012, 11:21 AM

237. "When you have only seconds, the police are minutes away."

And, it is generally NOT the fault of LEOs that this is true. Budget cuts are eliminating patrols and shuttering sub stations and Statie barracks. Some small towns, such as New Fairfield, don't have a police force or presence.

Rural residents sometimes have a 20-60+-minute wait for law enforcement to arrive, and even urban areas can have a decent wait, because of traffic, 911 being overwhelmed, and RIFing.

This story is a true Greek Tragedy, but I cannot fault the father for wanting to protect his sister, especially since THE NIGHT BEFORE there had been a home invasion where a woman was raped and robbed in their area. I think, and hope, everyone of us would want to protect our family, and understand why this guy picked up his gun and went to investigate, and maybe stop his sister from being raped or killed before the State Troopers got there. It is very for all of us, including myself, to say, "But, I would have..."

And, 911 had been called, so I hope posters PLEASE quit saying 911 hadn't been contacted. I don't know how that "fact" started.

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Response to oberliner (Original post)

Sun Sep 30, 2012, 12:42 PM

254. There's more to this story, I'll bet.

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Response to Matariki (Reply #254)

Mon Oct 1, 2012, 08:08 PM

271. I'm with you. I have no comment until the entire story is exposed.

Everybody just be good to everybody else. And let's stop the war on drugs.

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Response to oberliner (Original post)

Mon Oct 1, 2012, 06:09 PM

268. What chance are you willing to take...

some masked person comes at you with a weapon....how much time do you have to react? What measures do you undertake to determine friend or attacker?

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