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midnight

(26,624 posts)
Wed Sep 26, 2012, 09:35 PM Sep 2012

Illinois Court Permits Religious Pharmacists To Refuse To Dispense Emergency Contraception

Source: Think Progress

An Illinois appeals court upheld a ruling Friday that exempted pharmacists with religious objections from prescribing emergency contraceptives, finding that the medical professionals were protected by state law. The plaintiffs, both individual pharmacists and corporations that own pharmacies, had challenged an order by then-Gov. Rod Blagojevich requiring that pharmacists sell “Plan B,” a brand of the contraceptive also known as the “morning-after pill.”
The court rejected the ACLU’s argument that prescribing emergency contraceptives fell under an exception in the Illinois Health Care Right of Conscience for “emergency medical care,” even though doctors testified that the contraceptive was most effective when taken immediately after unprotected intercourse.
The three-justice panel did narrow the scope of the lower court’s ruling, which had entirely blocked the governor’s requirement to provide contraceptives. The appeals court held instead that the state law merely prohibits enforcement of the order against plaintiffs who claim a religious exemption.
The court’s decision to allow individual pharmacists to claim the protection of the law is not particularly surprising, given the Illinois statute’s broad wording: “No physician or health care personnel shall be civilly or criminally liable to any person, estate, public or private entity or public official by reason of his or her refusal to perform, assist, counsel, suggest, recommend, refer or participate in any way in any particular form of health care service which is contrary to the conscience of such physician or health care personnel.”


I hope I can post this here.....

Read more: http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2012/09/26/909341/illinois-court-permits-religious-pharmacists-to-refuse-to-dispense-emergency-contraception/



The real outrages claim of this religious right, does not apply to corporations.... They can block employees from their religious rights?
55 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Illinois Court Permits Religious Pharmacists To Refuse To Dispense Emergency Contraception (Original Post) midnight Sep 2012 OP
people who are not willing to do their WHOLE jobs, in this case, dispensing ALL legal drugs, niyad Sep 2012 #1
Exactly.... Dispensing moral judgement should not be allowed.. midnight Sep 2012 #5
I hope they have to put up a sign outside LizW Sep 2012 #2
+1 Dont_Bogart_the_Pretzel Sep 2012 #10
I was thinking the same thing ashling Sep 2012 #30
Akin probably see this as " times of real law and order"... midnight Sep 2012 #44
The woodcut was taken from ashling Sep 2012 #45
Thanks for informing me.... I suppose they are advertising that they have had a break from reality. midnight Sep 2012 #48
Exactly my first thought. xxqqqzme Sep 2012 #38
I have two questions about this. potone Sep 2012 #3
potone this is a really good question about the patients religious freedom.... I too would love to midnight Sep 2012 #7
Excellent point. DeSwiss Sep 2012 #9
Some thoughts ProgressiveProfessor Sep 2012 #14
and what about the town that only has ONE pharmacy? and the next town or village over also niyad Sep 2012 #19
The easy refutation to your strawman is to ask how many of those really exist ProgressiveProfessor Sep 2012 #20
just a few articles about catholic hospitals and women's health care niyad Sep 2012 #23
That's nice, but the topic was Plan B and pharmacies ProgressiveProfessor Sep 2012 #28
A different question: joeglow3 Sep 2012 #35
there is another sweetapogee Sep 2012 #31
What if the WOMAN's religion MANDATED birth control? Canuckistanian Sep 2012 #4
No ProgressiveProfessor Sep 2012 #15
Very scholarly answer Canuckistanian Sep 2012 #24
A pharmacist is not merely a simple retail employee, and neither is a pharmacy a simple retailer. David__77 Sep 2012 #25
That is how the law treats them today ProgressiveProfessor Sep 2012 #27
There is a pharmacist oath. But it is pretty broad and vague. benld74 Sep 2012 #6
Hmmm..... DeSwiss Sep 2012 #8
This video clearly show why it's time to put the breaks on the religious Taliban in this midnight Sep 2012 #41
Just make emergency birth control OTC. Problem mostly solved. Trillo Sep 2012 #11
I thought it was but most places have it behind the counter ProgressiveProfessor Sep 2012 #21
Trillo that doesn't sound like a bad idea.... This birth control option midnight Sep 2012 #40
One could argue some sort of religious accommodation should be made per Federal law ProgressiveProfessor Sep 2012 #12
Seriously, a pharmacist refusing to dispense medications based on their religion... Humanist_Activist Sep 2012 #33
Have another on duty dispense it is what is often cited ProgressiveProfessor Sep 2012 #47
Neither regular contraceptives nor emergency contraceptives are rare medications... Humanist_Activist Sep 2012 #54
Proper response:allow physicians to sell pharmaceuticals in their offices. McCamy Taylor Sep 2012 #13
That has been problematic in the past...and is somewhat banned by law ProgressiveProfessor Sep 2012 #16
How about Doc's selling the medicine at cost only to their customers... midnight Sep 2012 #42
Seems to me as long as the price is fair in the market it should be good ProgressiveProfessor Sep 2012 #46
Yes... And so why shouldn't all birth control be that way... Can you imagine men midnight Sep 2012 #50
Agree with any barrier method or similar technology ProgressiveProfessor Sep 2012 #52
I remember when buying motrin required a script... Now you can buy it without a script... Not sure midnight Sep 2012 #55
What??!! Doctors who do this (and it is legal as I'm sure you know this since you are an MD) riderinthestorm Sep 2012 #17
On the flip side AmyDeLune Sep 2012 #26
No profit - no foul ProgressiveProfessor Sep 2012 #29
ALL Doctors do that joeglow3 Sep 2012 #36
Physicians get free samples HockeyMom Sep 2012 #32
Lets see how fast christx30 Sep 2012 #18
There were stories about muslim grocery cashiers not wanting to touch pork ProgressiveProfessor Sep 2012 #22
Generally a reasonable accomodation is being able to perform the minimal amount of work required... Humanist_Activist Sep 2012 #34
Similarly MountainLaurel Sep 2012 #43
This is 100% wrong, and total bullshit... truebrit71 Sep 2012 #37
Then "religiously motivated" pharmacists must put up sign supernova Sep 2012 #39
That this is a deal with some people absolutely ASTOUNDS me Shitty Mitty Sep 2012 #49
For the 15 millionth time, FIRE THEM! FiveGoodMen Sep 2012 #51
So if a pharmacist converts to Christian Scientist can he sit on his ass and tell people to CBGLuthier Sep 2012 #53

niyad

(112,948 posts)
1. people who are not willing to do their WHOLE jobs, in this case, dispensing ALL legal drugs,
Wed Sep 26, 2012, 09:59 PM
Sep 2012

or, providing complete medical care, NEED TO GET OTHER JOBS. my health and well-being should not be dependent on finding a non=whack job doc or pharmacist.

LizW

(5,377 posts)
2. I hope they have to put up a sign outside
Wed Sep 26, 2012, 10:05 PM
Sep 2012

stating that they pick and choose which drugs they dispense based on their religious judgment of customers' behavior. Then people can decided to take all their business elsewhere.

midnight

(26,624 posts)
48. Thanks for informing me.... I suppose they are advertising that they have had a break from reality.
Thu Sep 27, 2012, 12:19 PM
Sep 2012

xxqqqzme

(14,887 posts)
38. Exactly my first thought.
Thu Sep 27, 2012, 10:53 AM
Sep 2012

There should be a warning sign posted in public view that the pharmacy reserves to right to pass moral judgement on your health care prescriptions.

potone

(1,701 posts)
3. I have two questions about this.
Wed Sep 26, 2012, 10:18 PM
Sep 2012

First, are pharmacists normally considered to be "health care personnel?" I would not have thought that they would fall into that category. Secondly, why is this Illinois stature not being contested on the grounds that it enables pharmacists to violate their patients' own right to religious liberty, as well as infringing upon physician's rights to provide the medical care that they deem necessary for their patients, including any prescribed medications? I would appreciate it if somebody with more knowledge than I possess of the Illinois law and its history would enlighten me concerning this issue. Thank you in advance.

midnight

(26,624 posts)
7. potone this is a really good question about the patients religious freedom.... I too would love to
Wed Sep 26, 2012, 10:36 PM
Sep 2012

be enlightened about this....

 

DeSwiss

(27,137 posts)
9. Excellent point.
Wed Sep 26, 2012, 10:49 PM
Sep 2012

That would also mean that if any of their ''patients'' suffers a healthcare problem as a result of their refusal to provide them with legal pharmaceuticals ordered by their doctors, then they're legally and financially liable just like any doctor and/or hospital would be when they fuck up.

- How nice.....

ProgressiveProfessor

(22,144 posts)
14. Some thoughts
Wed Sep 26, 2012, 11:13 PM
Sep 2012

They are a retail goods provider. They get to choose what they carry. No pharmacy carries everything out there all the time. I have had to wait a day or two for large chain stores to have what I need. The government does not tell merchants what they have to carry in terms of products or merchandise.

The patients' rights are not being violated since they are free to go where they choose. Pharmacies, while regulated, do not have exclusive territories or other kinds of state protection that would open them to mandates. This cuts both ways, as I will get to later. Some have argued that with the state license comes responsibilities, including a minimum list of drugs that must be carried. No state is currently taking that approach directly.

The physician gets no say in this and has no rights to be violated. They give prescriptions to the patient and where they get them filled is not under the control of the doctor.


Despite all of the above there is much that can be done...


Medical insurance plans can require that to be a preferred provider/plan participant that conditions are met. I want to recall at least on state in the NE is doing that.

People can choose to go to pharmacies that do not use religious beliefs to govern the goods they sell. There are no restrictions stating what pharmacy you must go to. Its really competitive out there with all the major chains, Wal-Mart etc. If a mom and pop shop gets stupid like that, they can easily be driven out of business over this, the more publicly the better.

Chains can make it clear that they expect their employees to sell everything they carry or at least get someone else on duty to handle it. While one can argue that the Federal law requiring religious accommodation where practical may apply, it is not overriding. Condition of employment kicks in here as well.

In then end its all about the Benjamins. Use that power and the stupidity will go away.

niyad

(112,948 posts)
19. and what about the town that only has ONE pharmacy? and the next town or village over also
Wed Sep 26, 2012, 11:41 PM
Sep 2012

has only one pharmacy, also run by the zealots? it isn't as easy as you try to make it sound.

or, how about the areas that only have one hospital, a catholic one?

ProgressiveProfessor

(22,144 posts)
20. The easy refutation to your strawman is to ask how many of those really exist
Thu Sep 27, 2012, 12:07 AM
Sep 2012

these days. And if you think Catholic hospitals are bad, you should try a 7th Day Adventist one.

Seriously, there is no viable legal structures out there to address a scenario where there is no Wal-Mart/Costco/Sams Club/CVS/Wallgreens/Rite Aid/etc within the range of a tank of gas and the local pharmacy is run by religious nuts who won't stock birth control and/or Plan B. Blago tried with a clearly illegal executive order in Illinois. However, do such scenarios really exist today? While I do not like religious people controlling my health, is it really happening is a valid question.

Today the only legally viable way right now to get rid of such knuckleheads is to identify them and run them out of business. It has the added benefit of showing the religious nuts that the people have power and they need to serve the clientele or lose their shirts. Its a pretty powerful incentive for them to do the right thing.,



ProgressiveProfessor

(22,144 posts)
28. That's nice, but the topic was Plan B and pharmacies
Thu Sep 27, 2012, 02:29 AM
Sep 2012

I noted that you really had 1 article used twice and the third was rehash of the first. There were a few anecdotes and no single case of where the unavailability of Plan B lead to an unwanted full term pregnancy.



 

joeglow3

(6,228 posts)
35. A different question:
Thu Sep 27, 2012, 10:23 AM
Sep 2012

What does it say about us as a nation when it appears no single group or entity is willing to step up and provide healthcare like Catholics?

sweetapogee

(1,168 posts)
31. there is another
Thu Sep 27, 2012, 07:46 AM
Sep 2012

solution to the problem. Simple really, go to pharmacy school, get your pharm D and get a reputation for selling anything to anyone no questions asked. It's a great job and pays well. I know as my daughter is currently working on her pharm D. Her university has a 98% sucessful placement rate for graduates. Those 2% who are unemployed are those who refuse to relocate for whatever reason (silly or not silly).

Canuckistanian

(42,290 posts)
4. What if the WOMAN's religion MANDATED birth control?
Wed Sep 26, 2012, 10:25 PM
Sep 2012

Could she counter-sue, claiming her religious freedoms were violated?

Don't answer that. We all know what it is.

ProgressiveProfessor

(22,144 posts)
15. No
Wed Sep 26, 2012, 11:16 PM
Sep 2012

There is no requirement that a retail goods provider accommodate every one who comes in the door. Pharmacies are not in state allocated protected territories. A patient can go to any one she chooses.

By the same token, if there is a business that is refusing to meet customer needs due to religion, that should be broadcast from the rooftops and the local bookies will start taking bets on how long before it goes out of business

David__77

(23,310 posts)
25. A pharmacist is not merely a simple retail employee, and neither is a pharmacy a simple retailer.
Thu Sep 27, 2012, 01:55 AM
Sep 2012

The state has every right to impose requirements on them. Pharmacists may not dispense drugs without proper license. How is this not gender discrimination? Refusing to dispense a medicine that only a woman would use...

ProgressiveProfessor

(22,144 posts)
27. That is how the law treats them today
Thu Sep 27, 2012, 02:24 AM
Sep 2012
The state has every right to impose requirements on them.

There are specific rules for the operation of the pharmacy, but the law does not require the stocking of all available drugs nor any particular subset. Doing so would be more than sticky, very hard to administer, and the state would incur a broad variety of liabilities. To the best of my knowledge, no state requires it directly.

Pharmacists may not dispense drugs without proper license.
Obviously true, but how does that impact this discussion?

How is this not gender discrimination? Refusing to dispense a medicine that only a woman would use...
What to carry is a business decision. A store does not have to stock products equally for both sexes if its not appropriate to their business model. That does not mean it is discrimination. I can't buy mens briefs at Lane Bryant...is that gender discrimination? Without a must carry mandate at a minimum, if a pharmacy does not carry a particular product, its not discrimination.

I don't like zealots controlling my health issues, including Bloomberg. Given the large number of pharmacies and the minimal chance of this happening, I am still looking for a practical problem here. When those zealots turn up, it will be easy to gleefully drive them out of business.

midnight

(26,624 posts)
41. This video clearly show why it's time to put the breaks on the religious Taliban in this
Thu Sep 27, 2012, 11:39 AM
Sep 2012

country...

Trillo

(9,154 posts)
11. Just make emergency birth control OTC. Problem mostly solved.
Wed Sep 26, 2012, 10:50 PM
Sep 2012

There's no good reason to pay "professionals" to dispense something they can refuse to dispense on non-professional grounds.

Maybe the local gas stations will pick OTC emergency birth control as a "convenience" item, right alongside the aspirin.

midnight

(26,624 posts)
40. Trillo that doesn't sound like a bad idea.... This birth control option
Thu Sep 27, 2012, 11:30 AM
Sep 2012

should be that convenient.

ProgressiveProfessor

(22,144 posts)
12. One could argue some sort of religious accommodation should be made per Federal law
Wed Sep 26, 2012, 10:52 PM
Sep 2012

The counter argument is condition of employment.



 

Humanist_Activist

(7,670 posts)
33. Seriously, a pharmacist refusing to dispense medications based on their religion...
Thu Sep 27, 2012, 09:20 AM
Sep 2012

And nothing more is failing at their job of being a pharmacist. What reasonable accomodation could possibly be made here?

ProgressiveProfessor

(22,144 posts)
47. Have another on duty dispense it is what is often cited
Thu Sep 27, 2012, 12:11 PM
Sep 2012

However, according to some the larger issue is even having it available.

 

Humanist_Activist

(7,670 posts)
54. Neither regular contraceptives nor emergency contraceptives are rare medications...
Thu Sep 27, 2012, 07:19 PM
Sep 2012

they are relatively common hormone therapies that regulate periods and prevent pregnancy. My fiancee takes an intravenous BC shot every 3 months, and she picks up the prescription at a local grocery store and then goes to the doctor's office to get it administered. I would imagine that it is much more rarely used than oral contraceptives, yet a local chain of grocery stores carry it on a regular basis. Granted, we are near a medium sized city, so that could be it, but what pharmacies stock should be based on supply and demand, NOT on religious objections or arbitrary judgments.

McCamy Taylor

(19,240 posts)
13. Proper response:allow physicians to sell pharmaceuticals in their offices.
Wed Sep 26, 2012, 10:53 PM
Sep 2012

That way they and their patients can be sure to get the care they need. Too bad if it cuts into drugstores' profits.

ProgressiveProfessor

(22,144 posts)
16. That has been problematic in the past...and is somewhat banned by law
Wed Sep 26, 2012, 11:21 PM
Sep 2012

In the bad old days docs would only write scripts to the captive pharmacy which sold them at inflated prices. We do not want that again.

midnight

(26,624 posts)
42. How about Doc's selling the medicine at cost only to their customers...
Thu Sep 27, 2012, 11:41 AM
Sep 2012

This way people get the care they want...

ProgressiveProfessor

(22,144 posts)
46. Seems to me as long as the price is fair in the market it should be good
Thu Sep 27, 2012, 12:07 PM
Sep 2012

Bear in mind that Plan B is sold without a script these days.

midnight

(26,624 posts)
50. Yes... And so why shouldn't all birth control be that way... Can you imagine men
Thu Sep 27, 2012, 05:56 PM
Sep 2012

asking for a script for condoms?

midnight

(26,624 posts)
55. I remember when buying motrin required a script... Now you can buy it without a script... Not sure
Sat Sep 29, 2012, 06:53 AM
Sep 2012

if you use that pill... But it has been used frequently by many...

 

riderinthestorm

(23,272 posts)
17. What??!! Doctors who do this (and it is legal as I'm sure you know this since you are an MD)
Wed Sep 26, 2012, 11:30 PM
Sep 2012

have been notoriously extortionate. This already happens all the time and its a racket. I can't even begin to dissect your post. You must know about this as an MD. Its common practice!





"When a pharmacy sells the heartburn drug Zantac, each pill costs about 35 cents. But doctors dispensing it to patients in their offices have charged nearly 10 times that price, or $3.25 a pill.

The same goes for a popular muscle relaxant known as Soma, insurers say. From a pharmacy, the per-pill price is 60 cents. Sold by a doctor, it can cost more than five times that, or $3.33.

At a time of soaring health care bills, experts say that doctors, middlemen and drug distributors are adding hundreds of millions of dollars annually to the costs borne by taxpayers, insurance companies and employers through the practice of physician dispensing.

Most common among physicians who treat injured workers, it is a twist on a typical doctor’s visit. Instead of sending patients to drugstores to get prescriptions filled, doctors dispense the drugs in their offices to patients, with the bills going to insurers. Doctors can make tens of thousands of dollars a year operating their own in-office pharmacies. The practice has become so profitable that private equity firms are buying stakes in the businesses, and political lobbying over the issue is fierce. "

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/12/business/some-physicians-making-millions-selling-drugs.html?pagewanted=all

AmyDeLune

(1,846 posts)
26. On the flip side
Thu Sep 27, 2012, 02:20 AM
Sep 2012

my old (now retired) doctor, seeing I had no insurance, gave me a physicians sample of antibiotics for my strep throat instead of writing me a $60.00 prescription for the same number of pills.

 

HockeyMom

(14,337 posts)
32. Physicians get free samples
Thu Sep 27, 2012, 08:33 AM
Sep 2012

When I had no insurance and went to a clinic, the doctor gave me free antibiotics from his sample closet. The problem with this for the Morning After Pill the woman would have to go to a clinic or doctor.

OTC at a supermarket would be the best place. Even rural areas have supermarkets. You can now get many meds that used to be sold only with a script on a supermarket shelf.

christx30

(6,241 posts)
18. Lets see how fast
Wed Sep 26, 2012, 11:32 PM
Sep 2012

repubs run to the courts to hold a Jehovah's Witness liable for refusing to give blood or blood products. Or a Hindu at a grocery store refusing to sell beef. Or a Muslim or Jew refusing to sell pork. That whole "If my religion forbids it, then no one can have it" thing can cut many ways.

ProgressiveProfessor

(22,144 posts)
22. There were stories about muslim grocery cashiers not wanting to touch pork
Thu Sep 27, 2012, 12:11 AM
Sep 2012

There were also lawsuits about jobs that required uniforms that did not accommodate mulsim hijabs or scarfs. Have not seen anything about it in a while. There is a Federal law that requires reasonable accommodation, but that is not overriding.



 

Humanist_Activist

(7,670 posts)
34. Generally a reasonable accomodation is being able to perform the minimal amount of work required...
Thu Sep 27, 2012, 09:25 AM
Sep 2012

For employment. For example, headwear is allowed if it doesn't create a hazard, health or safety wise. Likewise with handling pork, if you work at a sausage factory and you are Jewish or Muslim, well you will have to get your hands dirty, aren't you?

MountainLaurel

(10,271 posts)
43. Similarly
Thu Sep 27, 2012, 11:43 AM
Sep 2012

Muslim cab drivers in large cities have refused to pick up passengers with guide dogs and other working dogs. Big no-no there.

supernova

(39,345 posts)
39. Then "religiously motivated" pharmacists must put up sign
Thu Sep 27, 2012, 11:16 AM
Sep 2012

announcing that they do not accommodate women who need birth control, Plan B, or anything that gets up their noses. That way honest, hard-working women who need these medicines and products can freely go elsewhere.

Make no mistake, these fake pharmacists can walk the plank as far as I'm concerned.

But, there is such a thing as truth in advertising. If you advertise yourself as a FULL SERVICE(TM) pharmacy, and no one knows you are not until we go to the counter and ask for Plan B, then you are lying to the public about what you are.

These low-lifes live to lecture women about their sexuality, and now they have the law on their side. Make them state publicly what they are.

edit: I know all about this shit because it happened to me. At Target. At 39! I still get enraged at that hick prick who thought his "exemptions" were more important than MY birth control. Fuck him. Fuck him with a hot chainsaw!

Shitty Mitty

(138 posts)
49. That this is a deal with some people absolutely ASTOUNDS me
Thu Sep 27, 2012, 03:03 PM
Sep 2012

For fuck's sake, it's TWO-THOUSAND-FUCKING-TWELVE, not 2012 BC!!

CBGLuthier

(12,723 posts)
53. So if a pharmacist converts to Christian Scientist can he sit on his ass and tell people to
Thu Sep 27, 2012, 06:42 PM
Sep 2012

just pray it away?

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