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Tue Sep 25, 2012, 06:05 AM

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, Iran President, Slams Homosexuality As An 'Ugly Behavior'

Source: Huffington Post

CNN's Piers Morgan engaged in a heated debate with Mahmoud Ahmadinejad over homosexuality, in which the Iranian president slammed the lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender (LGBT) community as engaging in "an ugly behavior."

Through a translator, Morgan asked Ahmadinejad about what he'd do if one of his children told him he or she was gay. Ahmadinejad fired back, "Do you believe that someone is born homosexual? Homosexuality ceases procreation."

The conversation grew increasingly tense before Ahmadinejad ( who also denounced the controversial film "Innocence of Muslims") even compared LGBT lifestyles to thievery. "Perhaps in a country, they wish to legitimize stealing...if a group recognizes an ugly behavior or ugly deed as legitimate, you must not expect other countries or other groups to give it recognition," he noted.

Ahmadinejad's views aren't particularly surprising, given that homosexuality is a crime punishable by imprisonment and, in more extreme cases, execution in Iran. In May, four Iranian gay men were reportedly executed for sodomy under their nation's Shari'a laws.

Read more: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/24/mahmoud-ahmadinejad-homosexuality-gay-rights_n_1909548.htmlurce

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Reply Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, Iran President, Slams Homosexuality As An 'Ugly Behavior' (Original post)
oberliner Sep 2012 OP
JustAnotherGen Sep 2012 #1
orpupilofnature57 Sep 2012 #2
Pterodactyl Sep 2012 #165
orpupilofnature57 Sep 2012 #174
darkangel218 Sep 2012 #3
oberliner Sep 2012 #4
darkangel218 Sep 2012 #7
oberliner Sep 2012 #8
zellie Sep 2012 #13
MADem Sep 2012 #55
Tunkamerica Sep 2012 #22
Scootaloo Sep 2012 #35
ikl Sep 2012 #43
MADem Sep 2012 #65
Scootaloo Sep 2012 #152
oberliner Sep 2012 #162
Scootaloo Sep 2012 #173
oberliner Sep 2012 #175
King_David Sep 2012 #191
Scootaloo Sep 2012 #192
King_David Sep 2012 #194
Scootaloo Sep 2012 #196
cpwm17 Sep 2012 #206
MADem Sep 2012 #164
oberliner Sep 2012 #77
azurnoir Sep 2012 #126
oberliner Sep 2012 #176
leveymg Sep 2012 #84
oberliner Sep 2012 #87
leveymg Sep 2012 #117
oberliner Sep 2012 #140
leveymg Sep 2012 #142
oberliner Sep 2012 #144
leveymg Sep 2012 #149
oberliner Sep 2012 #177
leveymg Sep 2012 #184
Missycim Sep 2012 #150
oberliner Sep 2012 #178
Missycim Sep 2012 #180
oberliner Sep 2012 #182
Missycim Sep 2012 #183
Ash_F Sep 2012 #153
oberliner Sep 2012 #179
Ash_F Sep 2012 #202
self-realized sadge Sep 2012 #106
oberliner Sep 2012 #112
irisblue Sep 2012 #6
oberliner Sep 2012 #9
darkangel218 Sep 2012 #10
oberliner Sep 2012 #30
Scootaloo Sep 2012 #38
MADem Sep 2012 #59
Ash_F Sep 2012 #133
oberliner Sep 2012 #134
Ash_F Sep 2012 #137
oberliner Sep 2012 #143
Ash_F Sep 2012 #147
oberliner Sep 2012 #181
Ash_F Sep 2012 #203
King_David Sep 2012 #53
MADem Sep 2012 #58
Bad_Ronald Sep 2012 #141
MADem Sep 2012 #188
LeftishBrit Sep 2012 #122
darkangel218 Sep 2012 #135
Dr. Strange Sep 2012 #130
hrmjustin Sep 2012 #132
Bad_Ronald Sep 2012 #139
SaltyBro Sep 2012 #11
zellie Sep 2012 #17
SaltyBro Sep 2012 #24
oberliner Sep 2012 #31
MADem Sep 2012 #60
Tunkamerica Sep 2012 #20
bahrbearian Sep 2012 #26
oberliner Sep 2012 #32
fun n serious Sep 2012 #37
onenote Sep 2012 #42
fun n serious Sep 2012 #56
MADem Sep 2012 #52
snooper2 Sep 2012 #85
LeftishBrit Sep 2012 #119
zellie Sep 2012 #5
SaltyBro Sep 2012 #12
zellie Sep 2012 #15
SaltyBro Sep 2012 #16
zellie Sep 2012 #21
SaltyBro Sep 2012 #23
zellie Sep 2012 #25
SaltyBro Sep 2012 #27
JoeyT Sep 2012 #123
sabrina 1 Sep 2012 #157
sabbat hunter Sep 2012 #50
bahrbearian Sep 2012 #28
ikl Sep 2012 #47
Bluenorthwest Sep 2012 #64
bahrbearian Sep 2012 #76
Bluenorthwest Sep 2012 #79
bahrbearian Sep 2012 #83
Bluenorthwest Sep 2012 #91
bahrbearian Sep 2012 #94
Bluenorthwest Sep 2012 #101
msongs Sep 2012 #14
oberliner Sep 2012 #33
fun n serious Sep 2012 #61
Bluenorthwest Sep 2012 #67
fun n serious Sep 2012 #69
Bluenorthwest Sep 2012 #75
fun n serious Sep 2012 #80
Bluenorthwest Sep 2012 #92
fun n serious Sep 2012 #96
Bluenorthwest Sep 2012 #104
fun n serious Sep 2012 #109
darkangel218 Sep 2012 #18
MADem Sep 2012 #62
4th law of robotics Sep 2012 #98
polly7 Sep 2012 #19
SaltyBro Sep 2012 #29
polly7 Sep 2012 #34
oberliner Sep 2012 #49
polly7 Sep 2012 #54
oberliner Sep 2012 #74
Bluenorthwest Sep 2012 #78
Viking12 Sep 2012 #171
cpwm17 Sep 2012 #207
LeftishBrit Sep 2012 #189
leftynyc Sep 2012 #39
oberliner Sep 2012 #44
4th law of robotics Sep 2012 #99
ButterflyBlood Sep 2012 #187
fun n serious Sep 2012 #36
oberliner Sep 2012 #45
ikl Sep 2012 #51
fun n serious Sep 2012 #57
oberliner Sep 2012 #73
fun n serious Sep 2012 #82
oberliner Sep 2012 #88
azurnoir Sep 2012 #131
oberliner Sep 2012 #138
azurnoir Sep 2012 #158
fujiyama Sep 2012 #204
azurnoir Sep 2012 #205
Bluenorthwest Sep 2012 #93
Comrade Grumpy Sep 2012 #151
DemocratSinceBirth Sep 2012 #116
King_David Sep 2012 #201
mikki35 Sep 2012 #40
oberliner Sep 2012 #46
Bluenorthwest Sep 2012 #90
mikki35 Sep 2012 #190
oldsarge54 Sep 2012 #41
oberliner Sep 2012 #48
pampango Sep 2012 #70
oldsarge54 Sep 2012 #154
slackmaster Sep 2012 #71
oldsarge54 Sep 2012 #155
slackmaster Sep 2012 #163
Pakid Sep 2012 #63
slackmaster Sep 2012 #68
Throd Sep 2012 #105
slackmaster Sep 2012 #114
slackmaster Sep 2012 #66
Nye Bevan Sep 2012 #72
Bluenorthwest Sep 2012 #86
ronnie624 Sep 2012 #97
oberliner Sep 2012 #115
ronnie624 Sep 2012 #124
oberliner Sep 2012 #136
Socal31 Sep 2012 #100
azurnoir Sep 2012 #129
Dr. Strange Sep 2012 #108
Bad_Ronald Sep 2012 #121
Shitty Mitty Sep 2012 #193
King_David Sep 2012 #195
closeupready Sep 2012 #81
slackmaster Sep 2012 #89
closeupready Sep 2012 #103
olegramps Sep 2012 #95
slackmaster Sep 2012 #113
fun n serious Sep 2012 #148
Throd Sep 2012 #102
Cali_Democrat Sep 2012 #107
Dr. Strange Sep 2012 #110
NYC Liberal Sep 2012 #111
wutang77 Sep 2012 #118
Pterodactyl Sep 2012 #166
wutang77 Sep 2012 #170
Pterodactyl Sep 2012 #172
Bad_Ronald Sep 2012 #120
elbloggoZY27 Sep 2012 #125
BVM Sep 2012 #127
SunSeeker Sep 2012 #128
oberliner Sep 2012 #145
darkangel218 Sep 2012 #146
Union Scribe Sep 2012 #159
sarcasmo Sep 2012 #156
fascisthunter Sep 2012 #160
oberliner Sep 2012 #161
Pterodactyl Sep 2012 #167
Politicub Sep 2012 #168
sakabatou Sep 2012 #169
I love weed Sep 2012 #185
ButterflyBlood Sep 2012 #186
fujiyama Sep 2012 #197
oberliner Sep 2012 #198
octothorpe Sep 2012 #199
Marrah_G Sep 2012 #200

Response to oberliner (Original post)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 06:12 AM

1. Not surprised

He is who he is.

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Response to oberliner (Original post)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 06:14 AM

2. And that's why this guy shouldn't have a gun . n/t

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Response to orpupilofnature57 (Reply #2)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 10:17 PM

165. Or a bomb!

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Response to Pterodactyl (Reply #165)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 06:41 AM

174. Or a pea-shooter !!!!

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Response to oberliner (Original post)


Response to darkangel218 (Reply #3)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 06:25 AM

4. I would think no liberal/progressive would like their current leadership

Their government's human rights record is atrocious.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #4)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 06:32 AM

7. Human rights are atrocious in alot of other places

As for example in Palestine.

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Response to darkangel218 (Reply #7)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 06:35 AM

8. Absolutely right

All over the world, unfortunately.

Hopefully there will come a day when homosexuals are not treated like criminals in their own country.

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Response to darkangel218 (Reply #7)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 06:40 AM

13. Ahhh...

 

Like the repetitive killing of innocent "collaborators" ?

Like the abuse of women who've had acid throw in the faces?

Where kids are forced to wear suicide belts to blindly murder innocent Jews?

Those kind of atrocities ??

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Response to darkangel218 (Reply #7)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 08:12 AM

55. You should start a thread about that then, instead of engaging in false comparisons and

suggestions about what people "like" because they point out what Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said on the Piers Morgan show...

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Response to oberliner (Reply #4)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 06:55 AM

22. after this post be dragons

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Response to oberliner (Reply #4)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 07:32 AM

35. So are several other nations'

Like China. And Burma. And Colombia. And Belarus. And Tajikistan. And uganda.

Oberliner doesn't post any articles about China, Burma, Colombia, Belarus, Tajikistan, or Uganda.

Benjamen Netanyahu doesn't want to turn a bunch of Chinese, Burmese, Colombians, Belorussians, Tajiks, or Ugandans into flying hamburger, though.

Interesting confluence, really. I'm sure it's totally coincidental.

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #35)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 07:59 AM

43. Homosexuality

 

I have been reading DU for quite few years and just started posting and you are correct.
I notice oberliner only seems to go after those he sees,and feels as not being friendly enough to his most favorite state.

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #35)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 08:34 AM

65. Perhaps Oberliner's interest does not extend there--have you ever asked?

I used to live in Iran so I have an interest in that nation. I never lived in Burma or Belarus.

Your suggestions are out of line if that's your only "evidence." Particularly since the OP has said, repeatedly, that he opposes war with Iran.

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Response to MADem (Reply #65)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 03:58 PM

152. He can say whatever he likes.

Here, let me give you an example.

"I do not think Eurasia should go to war with Eastasia. However, we have to acknowledge that Eastasia is full of barbarians who want to destroy us all. Eastasia, it is well-known, harbors war criminals and sends spies into our government here in Eurasia. Eurasia is absolutely right in everything they say about Eastasia, and I support whatever it takes to keep Eurasia safe from those Eastasian savages. But I do not endorse war with Eastasia, even though they are incorrigible cannibals and zoophiles. Those who criticize Eurasia are Antisurasiers, Eurasia has an absolute, unquestionable right ot defend itself against all who would come. And it's well-known by all that Eastasia has pledged several times to eradicate Eurasia. But I don't think there should be war."

Wink wink, nudge nudge.

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #152)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 07:26 PM

162. No winking, no nudging

I am one hundred percent opposed to war with Iran. I do not feel that Iran is "full of barbarians" - in fact, I find your characterization deeply offensive.

You have been critical of comments made by Netanyahu. That doesn't mean you want to bomb Israel over them or think Israel is full of barbarians.

The Iranian president has made comments that are condemnable and should be condemned.

There is no justification here for going to war. But there is also no justification for ignoring or dismissing offensive remarks made by the president of Iran in a widely seen interview with a major US news outlet.

I would think that any liberal/progressive would agree with that.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #162)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 01:49 AM

173. You're not terribly good at this.

You have been critical of comments made by Netanyahu. That doesn't mean you want to bomb Israel over them or think Israel is full of barbarians.


No, it doesn't. But then - maybe you haven't noticed - but there's no coordinated effort to propagandize Americans about the eminent and existential threat to the entire world that Israel poses for its nuclear program, there are no other nations literally campaigning in the United States to win our government's support for the mass murder of Israelis, nor does every scrap of shit that falls out of that fascist fuckwidget Avigdor Lieberman's mouth end up smeared across every news site by a media eager to justify going to war against Israel.

Now, what i'm thinking... I'm thinking that someone who is "one hundred percent opposed to war with Iran" would logically have posted things critical of those who actually want such a war. Not unreasonable, right? I mean if you oppose the war, you would oppose the warmongers. I could also reasonably expect someone who is "one hundred percent opposed to war with Iran" to not spend a lot of time posting stuff intended to damn the nation in question.

Similarly, I would expect someone who is "deeply committed to LGBT rights" to chime in on the subject pretty frequently. I mean hey, right over there, is a whole group dedicated to the subject. And it pops up pretty much everywhere else, too.

Funny how neither of these seem to be the case with regards to your posting habits.

I would think that any liberal/progressive would agree with that.


I think liberals and progressives would have stuff to say about liberal / progressive issues. You don't, yet you seem pretty quick on the draw on setting rules for us to play by. You're just an awfully complicated fellow, aren't you?

Has there been a point in the last six years where Ahmedinejad has said something that didn't make him a giant asshole? Honestly, has there? Or for that matter, has he said anything in the last five years, that he hadn't already said in that first one?

Yes, there is justification for dismissing and ignoring it. it's the same justification for dismissing and ignoring Fred Phelps or Rush Limbaugh when they do the exact same asshole act. You know it's coming, you know they've got nothing else, and you know that it's a grab for your attention. "Ahmedinejad said something assholish" isn't news, it's just a bland statement of accepted fact. Yet, you seem compelled to give us minute-by-minute updates on what an asshole he is.

I suppose that much like another poster, and their constant posts about what a steaming heap of absolute shit Julian Assange is, you have absolutely no agenda, no ulterior motive, and are just a dispassionate, uninterested informant.

My advice? Go pad your post count in the LGBT forum before heaping praise on yourself for how committed to the cause you are. Post some shit critical of the warmongers screaming for war against Iran, before clapping your own back about how much you are against the idea of such a war. And make some input on actual progressive issues before you try to set rules for progressives to follow.

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #173)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 07:14 AM

175. There's nothing to be "good at"

The president of Iran has made loathsome comments on a major US news channel about homosexuals that ought to be condemned.

That's what the OP is about.

Good luck with whatever it is you are carrying around in your head.

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #173)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 03:08 PM

191. Strange on DU to find someone

Berating another member for criticizing a hateful homophobic bigot ..

The president if Iran is a hateful bigoted homophobic jerk asshole and has support on DU ?
( that is a question )

And I don't need to "pad my count in the LGBT forum.

Ahmadinejad is a fucking hate filled bigoted homophobic jerk ... And good for Oberliner for pointing this out.

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Response to King_David (Reply #191)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 03:21 PM

192. David, haven't I talked you you about making things up?

Ahmadinejad is a fucking hate filled bigoted homophobic jerk


Sure.

... And good for Oberliner for pointing this out.


And my point is, Oberliner isn't giving us anything we didn't already know. He's not "pointing out" that Ahmedinejad is an asshole. You say the name, people go, "oh, the asshole." Constant updates on what an asshole he is are kind of unnecessary, after six years of repetitive assholery.

I'm not berating him for criticizing Ahmedinejad. I'm berating him for being a warmonger. I'm berating him for being disingenuous about it as well.

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #192)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 09:12 PM

194. Making up things ?

For what you are so condescending ?

It make you feel good ?

Re-read your posts .

(Hint : they do not make me feel inferior )

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Response to King_David (Reply #194)

Thu Sep 27, 2012, 12:49 AM

196. It's not my objective to make you feel inferior

Just to point out that you're wrong.

Namely, your claim that I'm berating Oberliner for "calling out a homophobic bigot." I'm not. In fact, Oberliner and I actually share more or less the same views on Ahmedinejad.

Where we differ is that Oberliner thinks every asshole utterance the guy makes is newsworthy, and I think Oberliner's motives for that are sketchy. That's what we're going on about here.

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #173)

Sat Sep 29, 2012, 11:04 PM

206. I agree completely

This is part of the anti-Iran propaganda campaign. There are many other countries in the world that behave worse than Iran. But not coincidentally, Iran is being threatened with unprovoked war by a war-mongering country that the war lovers love.

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #152)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 10:06 PM

164. Very easy to accuse. Much more difficult to have an actual discussion. nt

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #35)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 10:11 AM

77. Are any of their leaders being interviewed on CNN this week?

If one was and they made a similar comment, I would certainly hope it would be posted here and roundly condemned.

I find this reaction very bizarre.

One would think a world leader making hateful remarks against homosexuals on a major American cable news program would be something that we could all get behind condemning.

Again I do not support anyone turning the people of any other country into "flying hamburger" - this is a position I have repeatedly made clear.

When the president of Iran gives an address to the UN in a widely covered speech and is then interviewed extensively on CNN where he makes bigoted comments about homosexuals (and odd statements about the veracity of the Holocaust) - are these remarks not worth noting and/or condemning?

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Response to oberliner (Reply #77)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 01:26 PM

126. perhaps the question of why these other leaders are not being interviewed on CNN

should be asked, why was Iran's leader interviewed and asked questions we already know the answers to?

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #126)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 07:15 AM

176. That is a good question

It is shameful the way certain conflicts around the world are almost completely ignored by the Western media, especially the US media.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #4)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 10:20 AM

84. The more isolated and threatened the regime, the worse things are for normal people, including gays.

That's a rule of life that I wish the neocons would acknowledge. But, I think they're more interested in starting another war than anything else.

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Response to leveymg (Reply #84)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 10:26 AM

87. Or the normal people overthrow their repressive regimes

We have seen this happen across the region - where isolated and threatened dictatorships (i.e. Libya) were deposed and replaced with democratically elected leaders.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #87)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 12:41 PM

117. The Iranian regime, whatever you may think of it, has a much broader base of support than any

opposition group or constellation of groups within Iran.

Sorry. Same size does not fit all.

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Response to leveymg (Reply #117)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 02:34 PM

140. There's no way of knowing that

People are not allowed to freely express their opposition to the regime in Iran without consequences.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #140)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 02:40 PM

142. That's been the working consensus for a long time, which is why Hillary didn't push regime change

in Iran three years ago.

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Response to leveymg (Reply #142)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 02:44 PM

144. Why don't they hold a national referendum to find out?

Perhaps President Carter or someone from the Carter Center could monitor them.

Given the opportunity, perhaps the Iranian people would want to ditch the "Supreme Leader" concept and choose a more democratic model.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #144)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 03:48 PM

149. ROFL. Same reason the US didn't hold a national referendum in 1955 on adopting Communism.

That just won't happen under present near-war circumstances and conditions.

An absurd question.

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Response to leveymg (Reply #149)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 07:16 AM

177. When would be a convenient time?

I'm sure you'll let the Iranian people know when they can go ahead and take action.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #177)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 08:07 AM

184. Some time after the thaw.

You're deluding yourself if you think Iran is ripe for regime change.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #144)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 03:52 PM

150. I would like to see that

 

but there is no chance in Hell of that happening.

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Response to Missycim (Reply #150)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 07:17 AM

178. Lots of "no chance in Hell" events have happened recently

Who would've thought the regimes in Egypt and Libya would've fallen?

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Response to oberliner (Reply #178)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 07:28 AM

180. Dont get me wrong

 

I would love to see the people rise up and throw down their leaders but they are too entrenched. Syria and Egypt are/were led by single brute dictator, Iran on the other hand is more dominated by religion. there's no single person to rally against. IMHO.

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Response to Missycim (Reply #180)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 07:41 AM

182. Fair points

Though in 2009, many Iranians did attempt to rally against The Supreme Leader (who has held absolute power there since 1989). There were calls for his death - but the crackdown was severe enough to silence those demonstrations.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #182)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 07:51 AM

183. A silly as this sounds, I think only a mass, peaceful

 

revolution will be the only chance to change that govt.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #144)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 04:16 PM

153. A national referendum would be like the US changing its constitution

A referendum making constitutional changes favoring liberal reformists would need more support than the current 60-40 conservative/liberal split(detailed in post 147). It would at least need to be 60-40 in the other direction. That actually wouldn't even force a constitutional change in the US, given our system, but Iran is different. On the bright side, it is trending that way, but sabre-rattling and hyperbole from world leaders and media figures won't help the liberals. It always pushes people into the arms of conservatives.

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Response to Ash_F (Reply #153)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 07:23 AM

179. The Iranian constitution has only existed since 1979

That's just over 30 years.

The US made some serious changes to the constitution much later in the game than that.

Abolishing slavery, instituting Due Process and Equal Protection clauses, right to vote for women and African-Americans, income tax, etc.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #179)

Thu Sep 27, 2012, 03:29 PM

202. Actually, Iran has changed it's constitution too.

In the late 80's. To make it even more conservative, sadly.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #4)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 11:30 AM

106. Why don't we worry about our OWN human rights record first, Zippy?

 

'Mkay? Because Gitmo is torturing people as you type and sip your no-foam latte.

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Response to self-realized sadge (Reply #106)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 12:27 PM

112. I think it's possible to do both

I don't think we have to wait until the US has a pristine human rights record before condemning bigoted remarks made by other world leaders.

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Response to darkangel218 (Reply #3)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 06:31 AM

6. I , for sure, don't like his views on LGBT people

this is being asked in a neutral voice, since I am not Oberliner, "You really dont like Iran, do you Oberliner"....is there something meant by that sentence?
Again, this is in a non critical voice, just asking for very early morning clarification

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Response to irisblue (Reply #6)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 06:36 AM

9. Probably due to some recent posts

I've posted several articles with respect to Iran lately that do not present their leaders in a favorable light.

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Response to irisblue (Reply #6)


Response to darkangel218 (Reply #10)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 07:19 AM

30. "He's not concerned so much with the LGBT rights"

That is a ridiculous BS statement.

Fighting for LGBT rights around the world is a cause that is very important to me.

I am completely opposed to any unnecessary war - I do not support an Israeli attack on Iran.

I am, however, very critical of the Iranian government, as I would think any progressive or liberal would be.

They have been ruled be an unelected dictator with ultimate authority and zero accountability for over thirty years. Their record on human rights in general, and LGBT rights in particular, is abysmal (as any number of human rights groups have pointed out), and their leaders' tendency to make provocative statements is detrimental to regional peace and stability.

Criticism of Iran does not equal support for Israel (or anyone else) attacking it, nor does it mean excusing human rights violations committed by Israel or any other country.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #30)


Response to oberliner (Reply #30)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 08:18 AM

59. Well said--I love the Iranian people, I just don't think much of their unfortunate dictatorship. nt

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Response to oberliner (Reply #30)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 02:07 PM

133. So critical you constantly post far right-wing spin?

The "wiped off the map" lies for one thing. Another thing.

This:
"They have been ruled be an unelected dictator with ultimate authority and zero accountability for over thirty years."

...is also not true, on all 3 points. The Ayatollah is appointed by an assembly that is directly voted on. The president is directly voted on. The constitution can be amended through referendum, and it has. Iran is a parliamentary government with ~12 parties in 2 coalitions, conservatives and reformists. In the last election, conservatives lost ground yet still hold an advantage. Iran is still, unfortunately, a very right-wing country. But at least it is trending toward the left.

This however:
"Perhaps in a country, they wish to legitimize stealing...if a group recognizes an ugly behavior or ugly deed as legitimate, you must not expect other countries or other groups to give it recognition,"

...is not a right wing lie. Remember, in the US, conservatives compare homosexuality to pedophilia and bestiality in their speeches so they would not attack this. You were right on this one. Keep fighting for LGBT rights.

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Response to Ash_F (Reply #133)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 02:20 PM

134. "The Ayatollah is appointed by an assembly that is directly voted on."

Wow.

Right-wing spin indeed.

All the best!

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Response to oberliner (Reply #134)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 02:32 PM

137. I know it is painful to accept

...but a large number of Iranians are very conservative, and actually voted for these people. It should serve as a warning to us of what could happen if we keep going to the right.

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Response to Ash_F (Reply #137)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 02:41 PM

143. The Iranian people did not vote for the Supreme Leader

And they have no political recourse if they decide they would like to replace him (as was made evident in 2009).

I am amazed that you appear to be claiming that Iran is any kind of democracy.

There have only been two Supreme Leaders in the history of post-revolution Iran.

Two in 33 years.

The first one only being replaced upon his death.

The current one having held the position for the past 23 years.

Does that sound like a democracy to you?

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Response to oberliner (Reply #143)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 03:33 PM

147. First of all, I challenge you to disprove anything in post #133

Because it disproved what you wrote in the previous post. 2009 was not to replace the Ayatollah, but to elect the President. And I do think he won, though I was supporting the reformists. Polls by multiple Western organizations reflected a 60-35 split between conservatives and reformists on the presidential candidates. So unless you think organizations such as The New America Foundation and the International Peace Institute are stooges for Ahmadinejad, then your wows and amazement have no point.

In parliament, it's more like 60-40 now with more independents going left, so yay. I expect further gains in 2016 but still a conservative majority. All major conservative parties are very far right so none are going to switch. There will be a conservative president in 2013

To answer the question of whether I think Iran is a democracy. That is not a yes or no question. It needs to be more democratic than it is. The current Supreme Leader/Guardian Council/Assembly relationship is a huge obstacle to true democracy for one thing. It creates a closed loop political system that is hard for candidates to break into. The office of supreme leader should not even exist. I would rather see something akin to a European parliamentary system(The US system is also closed loop for other reasons, though less severe).

But using statements like "absolute power" "dictatorship" and "un-elected" is just ignorant. It reminds me of people who could not accept that Obama won it here and thought it was some kind of conspiracy. Or the "Bushitler" posters we had on this site until 2008. In order to have a constructive discussion, you have to accept the facts, even if they are sometimes ugly.

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Response to Ash_F (Reply #147)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 07:37 AM

181. It's very easily done

And the very first sentence you wrote here is factually incorrect, which makes me wonder where you are getting your info from.

I wrote that the Iranian people would have no political recourse if they wanted to replace the Supreme Leader as was made evident in 2009.

You respond by saying that "2009 was not to replace the Ayatollah, but to elect the President" which demonstrates either ignorance or willful misrepresentation.

Maybe you weren't following the news at that time so let me share with you a few
articles from that period:

Protesters cry: 'Death to Khamenei'

Excerpts:

Eyewitnesses described fierce clashes near Revolution Square in central Tehran after some 3,000 protesters chanted "Death to the dictator!" and "Death to Khamenei".

Iranian state TV later confirmed police had used batons and other non-lethal weapons against what it called unauthorised demonstrations. General Ismail Ahmadi Moghadam said: "We acted with leniency but I think from today on, we should resume law and confront more seriously. The events have become exhausting, bothersome and intolerable. I want them to take police cautions seriously because we will definitely show a serious confrontation against those who violate rules."

Witnesses said between 50 and 60 protesters were seriously beaten by police and pro-government militia and taken to Imam Khomeini hospital in central Tehran. People could be seen dragging away those injured by baton strikes.

Tehran University was cordoned off by police and militia while students inside the university chanted "death to the dictator", witnesses said. Police and militia barred people from entering

. In Towhid Sq. a friend was hit by batons in the head and he's now in hospital. I don't know if the western governments are going to just sit there and watch us being hit and killed or if they will actually make a difference."

"If this goes on I don't think there will be more demonstrations in coming days. Today they showed a really brutal force and we Iranians know that they will do even worse because the are capable of that. There won't be mass demonstrations unless Mr.Moosavi or Karroobi come into streets themselves. That will make it different. But as for now I think they have silenced people.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/protesters-cry-death-to-khamenei-1711553.html

From CNN:

Chants of "Death to Khamenei" broke a state-imposed, and a self-imposed absolute prohibition on criticizing a leader believed to be wielding the wisdom and authority of God himself.

But right now, the massive network of Iran's intelligence agents, Revolutionary Guard, paramilitary Basij, and police of all sorts, are cracking down.

Sources say they are also going house to house, through email accounts and web postings, through cell phone calls and SMS text messages (when the system is allowed to stay up) and even to taxi agencies whose drivers hoisted Mir Hossein Moussavi posters during the election campaign.

They are rounding people up and, as it was chillingly put to me, in Iran's prisons "we have room for all of them." In addition protestors are being paraded "confessing and repenting" on Iranian state TV.

http://articles.cnn.com/2009-06-25/world/iran.election.amanpour_1_iranian-revolutionary-guard-corps-ayatollah-ali-khamenei-clerical-establishment?_s=PM:WORLD

There are numerous videos showing the "Death to Khamenei" chants posted on Youtube and elsewhere.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #181)

Thu Sep 27, 2012, 03:31 PM

203. It was a presidential election /nt

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Response to darkangel218 (Reply #10)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 08:11 AM

53. So we should ignore LGBT rights

And just move along?

That is what you are saying ?

When would it be "convenient"for you to challenge a backward ignorant bigoted idiot small minded jerk like Ahmadinejad ?

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Response to darkangel218 (Reply #10)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 08:17 AM

58. WTF??? "Imo, preventing another unecessery war is more important than lgbt rights in Iran."

You can't walk and chew gum at the same time?

Why do you think the posts of some DUer will "cause" war? That, in itself, is just not logical at all.

Hyperbole, much?

I find the "lgbt rights in Iran" a matter of supreme concern, especially when they start hanging CHILDREN from drott cranes in the village square, and when the puppet-leader of their country comes to USA to rant at the UN and uses the international airwaves to spread his hate about a group of people who have done no harm to anyone.

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Response to MADem (Reply #58)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 02:36 PM

141. That was an amazing statement. I had to read it three times to make sure I wasn't...

 

misreading/misunderstanding it.

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Response to Bad_Ronald (Reply #141)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 10:32 AM

188. It stunned me, too. nt

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Response to darkangel218 (Reply #10)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 12:49 PM

122. Oberliner posts a lot on the I/P forum; that's why many of his posts relate to Israel

And he does not like Netanyahu, or support war.

Neither do I.

To say that criticizing Iran is the same as wanting a war with them, is rather like the Bushies' arguments that criticizing the Bush government and its war is the same thing as supporting the terra-ists.

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Response to LeftishBrit (Reply #122)


Response to darkangel218 (Reply #10)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 01:35 PM

130. oberliner is not concerned so much with the LGBT rights?

Imo, preventing another unecessery war is more important than lgbt rights in Iran.


So, wouldn't that be YOU who is not concerned so much with the LGBT rights?

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Response to darkangel218 (Reply #10)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 02:00 PM

132. both are important thank you. n/t

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Response to darkangel218 (Reply #10)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 02:34 PM

139. "Imo, preventing another unecessery war is more important than lgbt rights in Iran"

 

Wow! Just wow. So, the only way to prevent a war with Iran is to not condemn Ahmadinejad when he spews his hateful bile against LGBTs?

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Response to darkangel218 (Reply #3)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 06:38 AM

11. I notice the anti-Iran hold has been strong here lately

Seems reminiscent of the lead up to the Iraq war/occupation.

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Response to SaltyBro (Reply #11)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 06:48 AM

17. No

 

Not anti-Iran.......anti rw Neanderthal oppressive Iranian government.

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Response to zellie (Reply #17)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 06:59 AM

24. Would you be willing to go to war

to change their "Neanderthal oppressive" government? Is regime change a worthy cause to go to war?

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Response to SaltyBro (Reply #24)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 07:26 AM

31. Criticism of Iran's government does not equate support for going to war

Despicable statements like this from a world leader/figurehead ought to get attention and ought to be condemned internationally.

Certainly on a liberal/progressive board such as this one.

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Response to SaltyBro (Reply #11)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 08:23 AM

60. I notice that a lot of people can't read contextually at all.

Saying that one thinks Iran's human rights record on gays SUCKS does NOT mean--and has never meant--that one is supportive of war. I don't remember George Bush standing up and crying for the "gays of Iraq." Never. Not once.

Anyone who makes that claim is not thinking very clearly at all. Anyone who insinuates that there is a connection between the continued and long standing wish for equal rights in Iran, where children are murdered for the "crime of being gay," and a sudden desire for war is engaging in speculation that is unfettered by any logical thought.

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Response to darkangel218 (Reply #3)


Response to darkangel218 (Reply #3)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 07:04 AM

26. I think he likes the Drums of War

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Response to bahrbearian (Reply #26)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 07:28 AM

32. I am completely opposed to war

I am also very critical of the current Iranian leadership and believe they ought to be roundly condemned when making bigoted comments such as this one.

If any other world leader had made such remarks in a CNN interview I would imagine the reaction would be more in line with what would be expected from a liberal/progressive board.

Somehow with the Iranian president, the reaction is different.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #32)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 07:37 AM

37. They are not like us.

And we can not expect them to be.

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Response to fun n serious (Reply #37)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 07:58 AM

42. That's the best you have? Don't criticize them because they're not like us?

Is there any behavior by any foreign government that you would condemn (and condemnation is not the same thing as calling for military reprisal) or would you excuse anything they did because "they're not like us"?


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Response to onenote (Reply #42)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 08:12 AM

56. What?

I condem most of what they believe in. I'm also tired of people dying tying to change them.

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Response to darkangel218 (Reply #3)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 08:10 AM

52. I love Iran, myself--lived there for many years.

I think Mahmoud is the biggest asshole on the planet--a nasty, vicious tool of the ulema. I don't think much of them, either.

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Response to darkangel218 (Reply #3)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 10:25 AM

85. I think it's an okay country (landscape/cities) with shitty ass stupid fundie government

Just what would happen in the fundies like Michele Bachman got in power..

No reason for us to bomb them but we can still call their fundie structure out for being losers.

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Response to darkangel218 (Reply #3)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 12:42 PM

119. No one to the left of Attila the Hun likes the Iranian government

That's not the same as being against the people of Iran.

One can criticize a government without being against the entire country or supporting a war with them.

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Response to oberliner (Original post)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 06:29 AM

5. Time for some non hypocrisy

 

When this nut job calls to "eliminate" Israel off the face of the world , the endless responses are "he didn't REALLY say that" and who cares what he says.

Now again he talks about LGBT community....previously it was we ' don't have this problem' and now it's "ugly behavior". Guess he really is misquoted and who "really" cares what he says.

Every hundred years there is some psychotic who rises to power and the world looks the other way.

"Those who don't remember the past..."

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Response to zellie (Reply #5)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 06:39 AM

12. So what is your solution?

Do you think Iran should be invaded or bombed or occupied?

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Response to SaltyBro (Reply #12)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 06:45 AM

15. Don't have one yet...

 

But being a Paulinian and burying your head in the sand sure isn't one of them.

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Response to zellie (Reply #15)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 06:46 AM

16. So being anti-war is now called "Paulian"?

Way to pigeonhole peace lovers.

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Response to SaltyBro (Reply #16)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 06:54 AM

21. Good post

 

And being concerned the rise of a madman is now called a 'war monger'

Way to pigeonhole peace lovers indeed.

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Response to zellie (Reply #21)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 06:56 AM

23. How many mad men are in the world?

Shall we go to war with them all?

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Response to SaltyBro (Reply #23)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 07:02 AM

25. Great post

 

I don't know...

How many run a despotic regimes that are giving the finger to the world and the IAEA and are trying to obtain nukes threatening the stability of the ME ?

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Response to zellie (Reply #25)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 07:05 AM

27. Wow.

Had to check which site I was on when I read stuff like that.

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Response to zellie (Reply #25)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 12:56 PM

123. At least two.

"How many run a despotic regimes that are giving the finger to the world and the IAEA and are trying to obtain nukes threatening the stability of the ME ?"

Time to declare war on George Bush!

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Response to zellie (Reply #15)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 05:40 PM

157. What is a 'Paulinian' and to whom are you referring?

Most sane people in this world oppose a war with Iran. Iran's crazy leader is THEIR business. If someone wants to start another war, let them do it but don't count on using this country's military for yet another failed illegal invasion of a sovereign nation. If you choose to label sane, anti-war-with-Iran, which is most rational people here and elsewhere, with epithets, that will only reflect on you, just FYI.

There are plenty of insane leaders in this world, some of whom we finance and arm. Why the focus on just this one? Is he threatening to invade the US? If not, we have no business even talking about the insanity of starting another war and anyone who does support such a disaster, has zero credibility with most sane people in this world.

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Response to SaltyBro (Reply #12)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 08:09 AM

50. you can denounce

a country or leader without wanting to go to war with them.


Iran promotes terrorism via hizbollah, its support of the current Syrian government. It is extremely anti-semetic (its BS 'reserved' seats for jews in its rubber stamp parliament not withstanding)


I hope the people of Iran rise up and overthrown the mullahs that rule that nation, but none of this means I want to go to war with them

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Response to zellie (Reply #5)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 07:05 AM

28. The Past , Like the Drum Beats of War with Iraq ?

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Response to zellie (Reply #5)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 08:03 AM

47. Hypocrisy?

 

I remember Hilary Clinton saying that Iran should be obliterated a few years ago,was that OK?

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Response to ikl (Reply #47)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 08:32 AM

64. That is false, she said IF Iran nuked another nation, we'd respond without quarter.

Very different from the words you typed up to put in her mouth.

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Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #64)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 10:03 AM

76. What would she do if Israel Nuked Iran ? Israel does have Nukes.

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Response to bahrbearian (Reply #76)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 10:15 AM

79. Do you have a quote from her? I don't. The other poster was lying about what she

said, and I pointed that out. Changing the subject does not make that other post into a true statement, it was false and still is.

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Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #79)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 10:20 AM

83. I have your quote "she said IF Iran nuked another nation, we'd respond without quarter"

has she said anything about Israel nuking another country? I'm just asking.

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Response to bahrbearian (Reply #83)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 10:36 AM

91. I don't know, dear, I'm not talking about Israel as you want to for some reason

I was just correcting the slander placed in the mouth of our Sec of State who never, ever said the bullshit that other poster claimed she said. Why does the dishonesty of that post not matter to you? I'm just asking. I always say that when you want to hang a person for their words, it is important to use their actual words, not words you make up and put in to their mouths as reason to hang them. So Clinton did not say what the other poster claimed she said.
Why are you defending a mendacious and utterly false statement from that other poster, the very sort of lie that is often told to fan emnity and make trouble for the world? I'm just asking.

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Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #91)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 10:47 AM

94. Ok Cup Cake ,, Hypocrisy is OK?

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Response to bahrbearian (Reply #94)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 11:20 AM

101. My only point is that the other poster was making a false statement.

She never said what that poster claimed she said. Lying is never acceptable.
And 'so hypocrisy is ok' is you putting words into my mouth, just like the other put words into Clinton's. Where do you learn that rude behavior?

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Response to oberliner (Original post)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 06:42 AM

14. blasphemy! shall we riot and kill innocent people over this? nt

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Response to msongs (Reply #14)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 07:29 AM

33. Inciting violence

Remarks like this could incite homosexuals to violence against Iranians around the world, could they not?

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Response to oberliner (Reply #33)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 08:23 AM

61. IF homosexuals were ignorant bigots than, yes.

But I don't believe they are. Look, I am still trying to fight bigotry and hatred in my own country. I'm relentlessly fighting equality for all here in the USA. Until that is accomplished I am too tired to worry about what another country believes. Do you know how long its goingt to take the Middle East to accept homosexuality? Good God! We have work to do here first.

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Response to fun n serious (Reply #61)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 08:39 AM

67. GLBT activists are aware of the international nature of our struggle.

'I'm too tired' to think about those who are in prison for being who they are? Disgusting thing to say. Too 'tired' to so much as object to vicious libels? Can't even say you find the words aborhent, just too sleepy headed tired exhausted from the mall and happy hour?

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Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #67)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 08:55 AM

69. What do you suggest?

I said I condemn most of what they believe in. There is not much more I can do except condem it. In the US however, there is a lot I can do about bigotry. Educate and vote for instance.

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Response to fun n serious (Reply #69)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 10:03 AM

75. Start with specifics. If you condemn 'most' of the anti gay rhetoric, which parts do

you not condemn? I also suggest that claiming you are 'too tired' to care about the plight of others is a sad commentary on your state of mind and lack of empathy so much so that it seems as if you are defending hateful rhetoric out of some lethargy that I find repellent.
So if all you can do is condemn such rhetoric, why don't you do that instead of claiming you condemn 'most of' it? If all you have are your words, why are you not making use of them with great specificiity? Instead, you advocate for apathy toward others because you are 'too tired'. I reject that sort of apathy.

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Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #75)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 10:17 AM

80. I condemn all anti- gay rhetoric.

When I said Most, I was speaking of their entire ideology, not just their bigotry against homosexuals. When I said I was too tired.. I stand by that. I am tired and sick of trying to convince people of other nations especially those in the Middle East. I mean it would take centuries to get them to accept homosexuality. I rather fight the ilks of michelle Bachman's 'pray away the gay' Rhetoric Here in the USA.

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Response to fun n serious (Reply #80)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 10:41 AM

92. Ah, so you still refuse to specify which parts of their rhetoric you agree with. Got it.

If you are 'too tired' that's your problem. The rest of us do not have that issue, we are a world community, and we can both walk and chew gum at the same time.
And again, you refused to specifiy which portions of his ideology you agree with, and you have been asked a few times. That says more than your blather, your silence is loud and specific....

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Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #92)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 10:59 AM

96. My silence is loud and specific?

LOL. Look, I just don't believe in Bombing the hell out of people all over the world. I'm anti-war of all nations. Last night he said 3000 Americans died on 9-11. Does that mean 1 million people must die in Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan? NO. That I agree with.

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Response to fun n serious (Reply #96)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 11:26 AM

104. So again

you claim that those who criticize this hate rheroric 'believe in bombing' which is not supported by any post in this thread. Characterizing others falsely is not cool. No one here is advocating war, yet you keep claiming that we are. That is dishonesty plain and simple. I have zero respect for your tactics here.

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Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #104)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 11:41 AM

109. Thats ok by me

I don't know enough about you to say I don't respect you and I won't judge you by a few posts.

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Response to oberliner (Original post)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 06:51 AM

18. Hate should never be fueled like this.

We are so close to yet another war front, and possibly ww 3. Everyone should look at the bigger picture and think rationally, rather then get caught up in hate and preemptive strikes agendas.

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Response to darkangel218 (Reply #18)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 08:27 AM

62. Who is flinging the "hate" here? A guy named MAHMOUD, that's who.

And who is making insinuations about the motives of the thread starter, here? Over and over again, in this thread? Without evidence, and despite the repeated declarations of the thread starter that he objects to war.

I think someone owes the thread starter an apology.

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Response to darkangel218 (Reply #18)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 11:16 AM

98. In the 30s

 

would you have complained about all those stories coming out of Germany about their treatment of Jews because "we just had a major war in Europe, why inflame another?"

If they don't want to inflame hatred against them they could stop saying and doing things that are hateful.

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Response to oberliner (Original post)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 06:51 AM

19. If 'some' get their wish and Iran is attacked,

do you believe Iran's gay people would somehow miraculously escape the carnage?

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Response to polly7 (Reply #19)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 07:05 AM

29. Shhh!!!!

You're destroying another flimsy argument these folks have to justify another costly and ridiculous war/occupation.

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Response to SaltyBro (Reply #29)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 07:30 AM

34. No, I'd really appreciate an answer.

It's obvious what's happening towards Iran, just as it was pre-Iraq invasion, but I'd really like to know if Oberliner is in favour of removing a Gov't by military might which does not discriminate between straight, gay, young, old, fit, ill, etc.

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Response to polly7 (Reply #34)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 08:06 AM

49. I support those who oppose anti-homosexual bigots

One would think this would be a widely held position on this site.

I am not in favor of the US invading Iran because of their discriminatory government.

I am, however, in favor of worldwide international condemnation of these remarks.

At the very least, on a liberal/progressive board such as this one, that ought to be a no-brainer.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #49)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 08:12 AM

54. Of course people are disgusted by any bigoted remarks by any leader,

but to pretend this isn't being used to ramp up the reasons to invade is ........... bullshit.

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Response to polly7 (Reply #54)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 10:02 AM

74. Countries should not be invaded just because their leaders are bigots

If that were the case, it would be bombs away all over the world.

However, diplomatic pressure can and should be brought to bear on leaders who make bigoted remarks.

At the very least they should be publicly shamed and condemned for such comments.

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Response to polly7 (Reply #54)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 10:11 AM

78. The same 'leader' said much of the same stuff last time he came to the UN

Good people around the world loudly condemned him then, as they are now. It was not used then to 'ramp up' anything and so your logic that claims any criticism of a bigot shouting hateful rhetoric is a call for war is mendacious.
I criticized him last time as well. Did you also attack his critics then, claiming any truth spoken was a call for invasion? For an invasion that did not happen? Did you run about making the same claims on the various other occasions this self same bigot made similar international statements?
A bigot is a bigot, agents for bigots are also bigots, they just work cheaper.

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Response to polly7 (Reply #54)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 11:34 PM

171. Fail. The Americans pounding the war drum hold the same bigoted, anti- values as the Iranian leader.

The fact that we find all of them disgusting doesn't lead to the conclusion that we support war. Google "non sequitur"

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Response to Viking12 (Reply #171)

Sat Sep 29, 2012, 11:09 PM

207. Many of us weren't born yesterday

This hysterical anti-Iran campaign is being used to soften the public up for an unprovoked war against Iran. We've seen this disgusting game before, and we're not all buying it.

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Response to polly7 (Reply #54)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 12:54 PM

189. The American hawks want to invade Iran because its government persecutes gays?

Frankly I'd say that's probably one of the few things that they like about the Iranian government!

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Response to SaltyBro (Reply #29)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 07:43 AM

39. Is your answer

to any and all criticism of Iran to accuse the poster of being a warmonger? Are we not allowed to discuss what life is like for the gays and women over there? Or should we just ignore your hysterical hyperbole?

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Response to polly7 (Reply #19)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 08:00 AM

44. Iran should not be attacked

Hopefully the people of Iran could take steps to rid themselves of this anti-democratic government and vote in leaders who are less bigoted against homosexuals and who are more respectful of human rights.

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Response to polly7 (Reply #19)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 11:16 AM

99. Who is arguing we go to war with Iran to free their gays?

 

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Response to polly7 (Reply #19)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 10:04 AM

187. Who is this "some" who is advocating attacking Iran?

I haven't seen a single post in this thread advocating an attack on Iran. Not a single one.

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Response to oberliner (Original post)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 07:35 AM

36. I watched last night

I thought he made a good point about 9-11. He said, yes. I mourned about the 9-11 attack I don't think anyone should die however to respond by killing about a million people in Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan is also not rational. About 3000 Americans died that tragic day. Another 5-6 thousand Americans serving in a war for that attack. Compare that to hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqi's. Many children slaughtered or forced to see their family beg for life only to be left orphan.
Frankly most if not all Muslims, Christians and Jews are against Homosexuality. I was not one bit surprised. Before we get them to accept homosexuality or any other human right we must first come to terms that they are not like us, they have a completely differant belief system. Very differant. Honor before shame for example, while we process our thinking under guilty and innocent.

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Response to fun n serious (Reply #36)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 08:00 AM

45. "Frankly most if not all Muslims, Christians and Jews are against Homosexuality"

Do you have evidence to support this?

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Response to oberliner (Reply #45)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 08:09 AM

51. Who supports Gays

 

None of the three major religions support Gay rights,but few of their offshoots do, and these are so far 'Unitarian Universalist, Presbyterian, some Quaker churches, several Jewish sects, and most of Buddhism'

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Response to oberliner (Reply #45)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 08:16 AM

57. Yes.

The evidence is in their own teachings. The Bible, Torah, and the Quran all believe in the same God. The God of Abraham.

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Response to fun n serious (Reply #57)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 10:00 AM

73. Right - but isn't the degree of secularism different in different faiths?

And the relationship between those who identify with a particular faith and their relationship with these texts.

I'd be curious to know what percentage of people who identify as Muslims, Jews, Christians for instance would consider themselves to be secular.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #73)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 10:20 AM

82. Hard to know.

They could identify themselves as secular but are they?

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Response to fun n serious (Reply #82)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 10:28 AM

88. Yes, I agree

I know that there is in the Jewish community a fairly sizable percentage of people who consider themselves to be "Jewish Atheists" or something along those lines - I wonder if this is a phenomenon that is somewhat unique to Judaism or if this is something that occurs in similar percentages across other faiths.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #88)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 01:44 PM

131. well I have never heard anyone refer to themselves as an atheist Catholic

or Lutheran, Buddhist, or Muslim the difference would be that as I am told being a Jew is matter of not only religion but ethnic designation as well and as this conversation has taken place in another DU group in fact between you and I and has come up quite a few time prior I am surprised you would make such a statement

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #131)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 02:33 PM

138. I have

In fact, it's something I heard quite frequently: Lapsed Catholic or Recovering Catholic.

Not exactly sure the nuances of the terminology.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #138)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 05:56 PM

158. well "lapsed and /or recovering" can have a very differnt meaning from atheist

the former 2 can simply mean leaving the Catholic church do to differences over the churches policies with regards to abortion and birth control but not becoming a nonbeliever as being an atheist would indicate

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #131)

Sat Sep 29, 2012, 01:42 PM

204. Buddhism isn't a religion in a typical sense

Buddha isn't worshiped as a God and many Buddhists would be fine categorized as atheist.

Also many Jews carry on the cultural traditions and rituals of Judaism, but still consider themselves secular Jews, agnostic, or atheist.

It's rarer to find Christian churches with that sort of flexibility among its members, and it's virtually impossible among Islam and its followers, since its followers are probably the most rigid and dogmatic.

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Response to fujiyama (Reply #204)

Sat Sep 29, 2012, 01:51 PM

205. Buddhism is different in many respects

the first being that it does not as the Abrahamic religions do require adherence to any specific deity, that said I've never known any Buddhist to call themselves atheist either, however virtually all of the Buddhists that I know are SE Asian or Tibetan and most have spent time in monasteries as either a monk or a nun during their adult lives , that is also different from the Catholic version as Buddhist monks and nuns are not required to give a life long commitment

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Response to fun n serious (Reply #82)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 10:43 AM

93. Do they have secular laws? Then they are secular...

nt

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Response to oberliner (Reply #45)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 03:53 PM

151. You could look at the various referenda in this country.

Being anti-gay seems to be a fairly popular position.

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Response to fun n serious (Reply #36)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 12:35 PM

116. That's About The Silliest Assertion I Have Ever Seen On DU

Just because a person identifies with a religion doesn't mean he or she identifies with all that religion's dogmas...

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Response to fun n serious (Reply #36)

Thu Sep 27, 2012, 01:45 PM

201. What Rubbish !

Homophobia should never be acceptable.

There should never be any "coming to terms" or understanding of homophobic small minded asshole jerks like this Iranian leader.

And shame on anyone excusing the inexcusable ...

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Response to oberliner (Original post)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 07:47 AM

40. Your point being???

This is very weird, reading this stuff on DU. What is the point of this? You cannot seriously be suggesting that the US declare WAR on Iran because they have a 14th century mentality on homosexuality? OK, say we did, and we won - I don't think they're gonna miraculously see the light about homosexuality when every Muslim extremist nutjob goes right on spouting hate about it. Did we 'fix' Iraq? Did we 'fix' Afghanistan? Last time I looked, the Taliban is still out there chugging along, just with far less cell phone use...

At this point, it would be nearly impossible to stopper up a country who already has at least some nuclear capability. If they wanted to stop it, they should have stopped it before the first nuclear facility went on-line. Pakistan has had nuclear bombs for quite a few years now. Their government is not stable, has not been for a long time. There's a hard-core element there that hates us, hates Israel. The only thing different is they're not saying 'Israel must be eliminated' every other day...for years.

This beating the drum rhetoric - homosexuality, threatening Israel, threat of nuclear bomb capability - sounds an awwwwfffullll lot like, 'We don't want the confirmation of our suspicions to be a mushroom cloud.' Granted, at least here there is solid evidence of nuclear material being present in the country, and I haven't even heard nary a mention of 'yellowcake from Niger' or 'WMD's! But the systematic demonization is the same. Iran is a sovereign country with very different ideas and a very different way of life that does not kowtow to us or Israel. I, for one, hope it stays that way. I hope they're not stupid enough to think there would be no retaliation for the destruction of an entire country in the name of holy bigotry.

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Response to mikki35 (Reply #40)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 08:02 AM

46. International leaders ought to be condemned for making remarks like this

Is that not something you can support?

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Response to mikki35 (Reply #40)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 10:31 AM

90. This was a televized interview, on CNN with Piers Morgan.

It is so dishonest of you to protray discussion of the vicious shit this bigot said as calling for war, which no one here has done and none would. We loudly oppose war, but you do not loudly oppose the words of this bigot who chose to go on CNN and speak hateful rhetoric against a minority group.
If you can not soundly condemn what this bigoted fool said, you are in the wrong. There is no excuse for this shit. And this shit happends each time this bigot comes to the UN, he attacked gay people last time as well, and good people condemned him for it. Bad people found ways to excuse it.

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Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #90)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 12:55 PM

190. Your point being??????

What was dishonest? I never once remotely stated or even hinted that this man is not a vicious bigot calling for war and that his hateful warmongering (among other hateful stupidities) should not be roundly condemned. It is - all the time - by me and everyone with half a firing neuron. My point is - he's been saying ALL OF THIS SHIT FOR YEARS. His message has never changed. 'Israel is bad. Israel is the anti-christ. Israel should not be allowed to exist.' Now, he's ranting about homosexuals, and he's demonstrated his 'bravery' and 'righteousness' by attacking those of his own citizens too weak to defend themselves. What a guy. Did I miss something? Has the guy DONE anything else besides talk? Constantly? There are words for people with big mouths and nothing else, who reserve direct action solely for those with no chance at defense - my guess is this guy would slot right in there.

He's trying to incite others. Looks like he did. You should congratulate him on his unqualified success! You should also learn to reserve your emotional condemnations for those who might deserve it, rather than those who simply have a different approach to the same conclusion.

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Response to oberliner (Original post)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 07:50 AM

41. Anyone Consider

How much the leader of Iran sounds like a Republican? Birther, anti-gay, anti-liberal, and wants a war.

Sounds familiar?

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Response to oldsarge54 (Reply #41)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 08:03 AM

48. Yes - and he ought to be rhetorically savaged as brutally as far RW Republicans

And other far RW leaders around the world.

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Response to oldsarge54 (Reply #41)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 09:11 AM

70. Religious fundamentalists do sound a lot alike even when they hate each other as enemies.

While they profess to hate each other, the fundamentalists here and 'there' feed off each other. Outrageous statements and actions from one side are fodder for outrageous statements and actions from the other side. And on and on and on.

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Response to pampango (Reply #70)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 05:06 PM

154. ah yes

but the weird thing is that at this time they are saying the same thing. Scary.

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Response to oldsarge54 (Reply #41)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 09:19 AM

71. All authoritarian extremists sound like that, regardless of where they are politically

 

They just choose different subjects to be extreme about.

Authoritarian extremists should all be taken out and shot.

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #71)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 05:12 PM

155. Sad to say

the point I am making is that the extremist from Iran sounds so much like Republicans here, or at least on yahoo. And taking the extremist out to be shot a little extreme, anyway?

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Response to oldsarge54 (Reply #155)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 08:23 PM

163. My statement was simply hyperbole

 

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Response to oberliner (Original post)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 08:29 AM

63. Tell me again why right-wing Christen's

don't like right-wing Muslims. They seem to share an lot of the same stupid ideas.

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Response to Pakid (Reply #63)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 08:40 AM

68. Who is Christen?

 

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #68)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 11:26 AM

105. I used to date Christen, but she didn't seem too political.

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Response to Throd (Reply #105)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 12:33 PM

114. The one I dated spelled it Kristin, and she was a Byzantine Catholic

 

Her family didn't care much for me.

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Response to oberliner (Original post)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 08:37 AM

66. Well, he seems to be a rather unpleasant fellow

 

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Response to oberliner (Original post)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 09:54 AM

72. Fuck him. And fuck anyone who defends him. (nt)

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #72)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 10:25 AM

86. I'll second that, loudly.

nt

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #72)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 11:14 AM

97. No one is defending him.

Just reminding people of how establishment media use propaganda to manufacture consent for the government's aggressive policies in the Middle East. We saw the same phenomenon on a more intensive level during the preparations for the Invasion of Iraq. It's always best to be aware of how the State uses propaganda to manipulate public opinion, no matter what one's beliefs are about a given issue.

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Response to ronnie624 (Reply #97)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 12:34 PM

115. He decided to appear on CNN and do an interview

No one forced him to go on Piers Morgan.

He also was free to say that he has no problem with homosexuality and that he accepts the historical truth of the Holocaust, but he decided to go in another direction.

Ahmadinejad is as capable of propaganda to manipulate public opinion as anyone else. Probably moreso considering the lack of freedom of press in his country.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #115)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 01:09 PM

124. I don't see how any of that is relevant.

This claim, however, is obviously false:

Ahmadinejad is as capable of propaganda to manipulate public opinion as anyone else. Probably moreso considering the lack of freedom of press in his country.

By no stretch could Iranian state media wield the same power to shape public opinion on a global scale as Western media giants.

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Response to ronnie624 (Reply #124)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 02:29 PM

136. OK

If he gives an interview and makes comments, that is his decision - the "Western media giants" aren't forcing him to come on their programs.

And it's amazing that you would think that obviously true statement is false.

State-controlled media absolutely wields much more power in shaping public opinion on a global scale.

In most of the world, this is the only media that it is possible to consume.

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #72)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 11:18 AM

100. This. Exactly this.

I tried to spread the word about the hateful Prop 8 here in CA as much as possible. I also love our Freedom of Speech, and the general freedom to fall in love with who you wish.

Now it seems like bringing up anything negative about Iran or the "protesters" is met with an instant and predictable backlash, which I am not sure would have been the case the year I joined this board. Things have changed.

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Response to Socal31 (Reply #100)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 01:31 PM

129. yes indeed things have changed

when you joined DU the Us's willingness to enjoinder Israel in an attack against Iran was not a campaign issue in the 2008 elections, however unfortunately that is no longer the case

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #72)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 11:39 AM

108. +1

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #72)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 12:46 PM

121. +10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

 

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #72)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 06:54 PM

193. With a telephone pole

.

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #72)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 11:34 PM

195. +1

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Response to oberliner (Original post)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 10:19 AM

81. Does it seem to anyone else he subscribes to the choice paradigm

of homosexuality, that homosexuality is not the totality of who you are - orientation, gender nonconformity, romantic orientation - but instead, it's merely a sex act?

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Response to closeupready (Reply #81)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 10:30 AM

89. I don't know what he really thinks, but he's pandering to the Sin Paradigm

 

Which plays well with fundamentalists.

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #89)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 11:24 AM

103. Good point.

nt

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Response to oberliner (Original post)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 10:53 AM

95. I have read that homosexuality is prevalent in Islamic countries, especially among young males.

This has been attributed to strict separation of the young males and females. Perhaps in his case it may be that he protests to loudly. It has also been noted that the stringent condemnation of it has prevented effective information concerning AIDs prevention.

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Response to olegramps (Reply #95)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 12:31 PM

113. Back in the 1980s I had a job with several gay male co-workers who had worked for EDS in Iran...

 

...before the Islamic revolution of 1979.

They told me they had no difficulty finding dates among the local population in Isfahan and Tehran.

ETA I think it's safe to assume that the real incidence of homosexuality is rather consistent across cultures.

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #113)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 03:40 PM

148. Absolutely! nt

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Response to oberliner (Original post)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 11:23 AM

102. "if a group recognizes an ugly behavior or ugly deed as legitimate...

...you must not expect other countries or other groups to give it recognition,"

Same goes for fundamentalist whackos killing and burning over a crappy, no-budget movie they haven't even seen.

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Response to oberliner (Original post)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 11:38 AM

107. So he holds the same position as most Republicans.

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Response to Cali_Democrat (Reply #107)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 11:43 AM

110. Yep.

And as such, we should criticize the hell out of them.

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Response to oberliner (Original post)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 11:49 AM

111. Fuck Ahmadinejad and fuck all bigots.

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Response to oberliner (Original post)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 12:41 PM

118. I love the Iranian people, can't stand there leadership

 

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Response to wutang77 (Reply #118)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 10:21 PM

166. "Their" not "there"

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Response to Pterodactyl (Reply #166)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 10:52 PM

170. Grammar Mullah

 

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Response to wutang77 (Reply #170)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 11:46 PM

172. I prefer grammar czar.

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Response to oberliner (Original post)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 12:44 PM

120. Tell me again why condemning this man's homophobia & bigotry is tantamount to advocating war with...

 

...Iran? Someone please explain that to me. Someone please explain that one to me good because from where I'm sitting, condemning an ugly, hate-mongering shit stain like this for his wanton bigotry should be the least anyone with any sense of justice should do.

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Response to oberliner (Original post)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 01:25 PM

125. Really Bad Manners.

 

I really wonder who pulls the strings and writes the hate speeches for the Iranian President?

Also, why does the United Nations or United States allow him into this Country?
















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Response to oberliner (Original post)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 01:28 PM

127. The band who Rocked The Ayatollahs with Pink Floyd, Now Take On Romney With Simon and Garfunkel

[link:|

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Response to oberliner (Original post)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 01:29 PM

128. He's just like the religious right in the U.S., except he is not constrained by the Consitution.

Otherwise, he's got very similar social values to Akin, Ryan and the rest of Tealiban.

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Response to oberliner (Original post)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 02:50 PM

145. Any other world leader makes these comments - and the reaction would be condemnation

Somehow with the Iranian president making them, the thread goes in another direction.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #145)


Response to oberliner (Reply #145)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 06:56 PM

159. I was baffled by how this thread played out.

By the responses I was starting to think I'd missed the invisible-type in your OP calling for carpet bombing Iran or something.

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Response to oberliner (Original post)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 05:32 PM

156. Ryan agrees.

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Response to oberliner (Original post)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 07:11 PM

160. you should have a war with Iran all by yourself

and take all the extremist right wing pro-Israelis with you. Fanning the flames of war and it's an obvious pattern observed here by your posts regarding Iran, Israel's boogeyman.

Gee... I wonder what religious extremists in Israel say about gays too?

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Response to fascisthunter (Reply #160)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 07:18 PM

161. I oppose war with Iran

And I especially oppose the sabre-rattling of the extremist right wing pro-Israelis.

My profound hope is that the current Israeli government is voted out of office and replaced by a coalition that is pro-peace and ready to get serious about ending the occupation.

There is a great deal of bigotry against homosexuals by religions extremists in Israel. Thankfully, however, the government is not controlled by those extremists, and Israel, is in fact, relatively progressive with respect to gay rights relative to other countries in the region.

It is startling to me that one cannot simply condemn the bigoted statements made by the Iranian president in this CNN interview without bringing other topics into the conversation.

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Response to oberliner (Original post)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 10:22 PM

167. The government of Iran sucks.

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Response to oberliner (Original post)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 10:22 PM

168. Kind of like Ryan

Anyone see his remarks today about how gay marriage isn't a human value?

It is to me and many of my friends.

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Response to oberliner (Original post)

Tue Sep 25, 2012, 10:28 PM

169. *eye roll*

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Response to oberliner (Original post)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 08:09 AM

185. Sad.

 

The people that don't want anyone to criticize Iran for this & other outrages so as to not "fan the flames of war" define the term "useful idiots".

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Response to oberliner (Original post)

Wed Sep 26, 2012, 09:59 AM

186. Did I somehow miss the bit in this thread that calls for bombing or invading Iran?

I'm reading all these posts accusing the OP of this and don't see it anywhere. For that matter I don't see any one in ANY posts advocating this. ::

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Response to oberliner (Original post)

Thu Sep 27, 2012, 12:59 AM

197. He's a nasty piece of work

I find many of the responses to you in this thread disturbing, in that it shows a real inability for a lot of posters to condemn human rights violations abroad by repressive regimes, for fear of looking like they support an invasion. I understand the frustration in how human rights violations have been used (and sometimes even exaggerated) in the past for propaganda purposes to help take the country to war. But such politicization should not silence the speaking out of and against such atrocities taking place. Such an action is neither liberal or progressive in any sense. It's simply cowardly and pathetic.

I appreciate you posting this news, because it's important to realize how awful A-Jad is and how poorly gays and lesbians are treated in the middle east. And I don't think you, me or anyone else on this board needs to offer a fucking disclaimer opposing invasions, everytime we state these facts.

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Response to fujiyama (Reply #197)

Thu Sep 27, 2012, 08:16 AM

198. Thanks

I very much appreciate this response.

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Response to oberliner (Original post)

Thu Sep 27, 2012, 08:45 AM

199. If a leader of US/France/Canada/Germany/UK/Japan/ETC said this in an interview, it would

have been reported and most likely posted here on DU. The difference is that no one would claiming that we should ignore the comments, or that those discussing it have an ulterior motive.

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Response to oberliner (Original post)

Thu Sep 27, 2012, 08:49 AM

200. sigh

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