Sun Sep 23, 2012, 05:06 AM
bananas (20,174 posts)
Sentinel Exclusive: NASA wants to send astronauts beyond the moon
Source: Orlando Sentinel
Top NASA officials have picked a leading candidate for the agency's next major mission: construction of a new outpost that would send astronauts farther from Earth than at any time in history. The so-called "gateway spacecraft" would hover in orbit on the far side of the moon, support a small astronaut crew and function as a staging area for future missions to the moon and Mars. <snip> NASA Chief Charlie Bolden briefed the White House earlier this month on details of the proposal, but it's unclear whether it has the administration's support. Of critical importance is the price tag, which would certainly run into the billions of dollars. Documents obtained by the Orlando Sentinel show that NASA wants to build a small outpost — likely with parts left over from the $100 billion International Space Station — at what's known as the Earth-Moon Lagrange Point 2, a spot about 38,000 miles from the moon and 277,000 miles from Earth. <snip> Read more: http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-09-22/news/os-nasa-space-outpost-20120922_1_moon-rocks-space-launch-system-nasa-chief-charlie-bolden?pagewanted=all
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34 replies, 3646 views
| Author | Time | Post | |
| bananas | Sep 2012 | OP | |
| MrSlayer | Sep 2012 | #1 | |
| Judi Lynn | Sep 2012 | #2 | |
| longship | Sep 2012 | #3 | |
| LunaSea | Sep 2012 | #4 | |
| Festivito | Sep 2012 | #5 | |
| bananas | Sep 2012 | #6 | |
| itsrobert | Sep 2012 | #12 | |
| Festivito | Sep 2012 | #17 | |
| dipsydoodle | Sep 2012 | #7 | |
| a geek named Bob | Sep 2012 | #8 | |
| Dash87 | Sep 2012 | #9 | |
| Fearless | Sep 2012 | #11 | |
| dipsydoodle | Sep 2012 | #13 | |
| Fearless | Sep 2012 | #14 | |
| Posteritatis | Sep 2012 | #21 | |
| rock | Sep 2012 | #10 | |
| Ratty | Sep 2012 | #15 | |
| Sirveri | Sep 2012 | #19 | |
| Ratty | Sep 2012 | #30 | |
| Sirveri | Sep 2012 | #31 | |
| bananas | Sep 2012 | #32 | |
| bananas | Sep 2012 | #33 | |
| bananas | Sep 2012 | #34 | |
| Ash_F | Sep 2012 | #16 | |
| Posteritatis | Sep 2012 | #22 | |
| Ash_F | Sep 2012 | #23 | |
| daleo | Sep 2012 | #18 | |
| joshcryer | Sep 2012 | #20 | |
| NickB79 | Sep 2012 | #24 | |
| Posteritatis | Sep 2012 | #25 | |
| NickB79 | Sep 2012 | #26 | |
| Ash_F | Sep 2012 | #27 | |
| bananas | Sep 2012 | #29 | |
| bananas | Sep 2012 | #28 |
Response to bananas (Original post)
Sun Sep 23, 2012, 05:17 AM
MrSlayer (21,361 posts)
1. Cool.
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We could be there already if we weren't wasting so much money on wars and shit.
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Response to bananas (Original post)
Sun Sep 23, 2012, 05:19 AM
Judi Lynn (77,649 posts)
2. Whoa! Interesting, isn't it? Rec. n/t
Response to bananas (Original post)
Sun Sep 23, 2012, 05:25 AM
longship (17,714 posts)
3. A stop on the Interplanetary Superhighway
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Which is very cool and awesome.
Interplanetary Transport Network links Lagrange points throughout the solar system just like a subway system. The Earth-Moon L2 point is just one stop in that system. |
Response to bananas (Original post)
Sun Sep 23, 2012, 06:44 AM
LunaSea (1,606 posts)
4. Anyone else thinking 2nd term ambassadorial post?
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Response to bananas (Original post)
Sun Sep 23, 2012, 07:34 AM
Festivito (12,284 posts)
5. I wonder how they intend to effect communication.
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Signals won't go through the moon.
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Response to Festivito (Reply #5)
Sun Sep 23, 2012, 07:40 AM
bananas (20,174 posts)
6. It's actually a halo orbit around L2.
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It will have constant line-of-sight communications with earth.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halo_orbit |
Response to bananas (Reply #6)
Sun Sep 23, 2012, 11:34 AM
itsrobert (9,070 posts)
12. If it didn't, a relay system could be deployed
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n/t
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Response to itsrobert (Reply #12)
Sun Sep 23, 2012, 03:05 PM
Festivito (12,284 posts)
17. Adding a costly risky addition.
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L2 is brilliant. L2 orbit can relay backside of the moon progress. I love it.
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Response to bananas (Original post)
Sun Sep 23, 2012, 07:53 AM
dipsydoodle (32,681 posts)
7. Doesn't matter what it costs
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You just print the stuff over there. Don't you ?
Never the mind the alternative good uses to which those funds could be put. |
Response to dipsydoodle (Reply #7)
Sun Sep 23, 2012, 09:25 AM
a geek named Bob (2,715 posts)
8. ...here we go...
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alternative good uses?
What about light weight alloys? Semi-permeable membranes (which were uses for smaller and cheaper dialysis machines)? Better weather forecasting? Using a computer smaller than a house? You're welcome! How about that satellite communication network? All for pennies on the tax dollar... |
Response to dipsydoodle (Reply #7)
Sun Sep 23, 2012, 09:29 AM
Dash87 (1,579 posts)
9. The further we explore, the more we learn about the universe and our own world.
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If you had a problem with the defense budget instead, then I would agree with you.
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Response to dipsydoodle (Reply #7)
Sun Sep 23, 2012, 11:32 AM
Fearless (12,399 posts)
11. A revamped space program would create jobs
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Just as it did in the 1960's. It won't be 500k jobs, but it will be some. Never mind the indirect job growth through subsidiaries and contractors. Plus new groundbreaking research. And who knows, statistically rare Earth metals could be found out there. Additionally, I'd gladly divert funding from some useless military project and reinvest it in American jobs, invention, and innovation.
Columbus was originally rejected money by Italy. That's why he went to Portugal. That turned out pretty well Portugal (albeit pretty badly for the natives). |
Response to Fearless (Reply #11)
Sun Sep 23, 2012, 11:35 AM
dipsydoodle (32,681 posts)
13. But it wouldn't correct the inequalities which exist in the USA
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which are the highest in the developed world.
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Response to dipsydoodle (Reply #13)
Sun Sep 23, 2012, 12:14 PM
Fearless (12,399 posts)
14. Neither would increased drilling safety procedures
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But they're still a good idea.
The money wouldn't be thrown away. It would be part of essentially a government funded work program many of which jobs will have benefits. |
Response to dipsydoodle (Reply #13)
Mon Sep 24, 2012, 02:01 PM
Posteritatis (17,300 posts)
21. Zeroing out NASA's budget wouldn't either. (nt)
Response to bananas (Original post)
Sun Sep 23, 2012, 11:14 AM
rock (7,418 posts)
10. We cannot allow a LaGrange Point Gap!
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With apologies to Dr. Stangelove.
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Response to bananas (Original post)
Sun Sep 23, 2012, 01:06 PM
Ratty (1,837 posts)
15. I've always ridiculed a return to the moon as pointless and expensive
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But have always been behind sending people to Mars. What would this staging area do exactly that couldn't been done in Earth orbit at the ISS? It would take less fuel to send a constructed ship on its way to Mars but would that savings in fuel be worth the construction cost? As I understand it it doesn't take much more fuel to send a ship to the Langrange point than it does to put it into orbit. But what about the construction costs? Would it be reusable? Do we build a Mars ship and then shutdown and mothball the thing when budgets get tight and political will fades?
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Response to Ratty (Reply #15)
Mon Sep 24, 2012, 05:44 AM
Sirveri (4,249 posts)
19. You go to the moon to harvest the He3 deposits for fuel in nuclear fusion reactors.
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Either that or you can manufacture it via tritium manufacturing and the decay cycle, however that has a 5 year lead time.
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Response to Sirveri (Reply #19)
Mon Sep 24, 2012, 08:05 PM
Ratty (1,837 posts)
30. When you show me a reactor
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That can create energy from He3 maybe I'll listen
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Response to Ratty (Reply #30)
Tue Sep 25, 2012, 04:44 AM
Sirveri (4,249 posts)
31. It's not exactly an old concept, but here you go.
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Last edited Tue Sep 25, 2012, 04:45 AM USA/ET - Edit history (1) http://www.technologyreview.com/printer_friendly_article.aspx?id=19296
Lab experiments suggest that future fusion reactors could use helium-3 gathered from the moon. http://www.asi.org/adb/02/09/he3-intro.html That 1 million metric tonnes of He3, reacted with deuterium, would generate about 20,000 terrawatt-years of thermal energy. The units alone are awesome: a terrawatt-year is one trillion (10 to 12th power) watt-years. To put this into perspective, one 100-watt light bulb will use 100 watt-years of energy in one year. http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/space/moon-mars/1283056 2. SECOND GENERATION: While useful for studying fusion, reactors operating with deuterium-tritium fuel are impractical for commercial use. Among other things, the reaction produces large amounts of radiation in the form of neutrons. Substituting helium-3 for tritium significantly reduces neutron production, making it safe to locate fusion plants nearer to where power is needed the most, large cities. This summer, researchers at the University of Wisconsin Fusion Technology Institute in Madison reported having successfully initiated and maintained a fusion reaction using deuterium and helium-3 fuel. http://www.wired.com/science/space/news/2006/12/72276?currentPage=all Nestled among the agency's 200-point mission goals is a proposal to mine the moon for fuel used in fusion reactors -- futuristic power plants that have been demonstrated in proof-of-concept but are likely decades away from commercial deployment. |
Response to Ratty (Reply #15)
Tue Sep 25, 2012, 12:53 PM
bananas (20,174 posts)
32. This fits into Mars missions in several ways
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You wrote, "As I understand it it doesn't take much more fuel to send a ship to the Langrange point than it does to put it into orbit."
It takes a lot of fuel to send a ship to the Lagrange point, it takes a lot of fuel to send anything out of low earth orbit, that's one reason we've been stuck in low earth orbit for so long. So NASA is planning a re-usable interplanetary ship which will park way up at the L2 Lagrange point for crew boarding, resupply, and maintenance. The L2 gateway will provide a habitat for workers performing maintenance on the interplanetary ship. Both craft will be built in low earth orbit and moved to L2 using solar electric propulsion. We've never moved a large ship with electric propulsion before, and there are always surprises when you do anything new. This will also be the first deep-space habitat for long durations beyond the Van Allen belts. So in several ways the L2 gateway can be thought of as an early prototype or technology demonstration for the interplanetary ship. Making the L2 gateway an international project will help defray costs and keep it from being mothballed when budgets get tight. |
Response to bananas (Reply #32)
Tue Sep 25, 2012, 01:02 PM
bananas (20,174 posts)
33. Beyond-the-moon base stirs up buzz
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Last edited Tue Sep 25, 2012, 01:18 PM USA/ET - Edit history (2) http://cosmiclog.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/09/24/14072181-beyond-the-moon-base-stirs-up-buzz?lite
Beyond-the-moon base stirs up buzz By Alan Boyle
NASA / Boeing via NASASpaceflight.com An artist's conception shows a deep-space transfer vehicle flying near a exploration gateway platform at right. A concept that calls for building a deep-space outpost beyond the moon's orbit has stirred up some positive buzz from space pioneers — including Apollo 11 moonwalker Buzz Aldrin. Over the weekend, the Orlando Sentinel reported that top NASA officials have chosen the construction of a space exploration platform at a gravitational balance point known as EML-2, or Earth-moon Lagrange point 2, as the agency's next major mission. The outpost would be held in an orbit 277,000 miles away from Earth, and 38,000 miles beyond the moon. <snip> Aldrin has long urged NASA to set up a similar "floating launching pad" at a different balance point between Earth and the moon, called EML-1 or L1, and this weekend he said that platforms at L1 or L2, plus fueling depots for spaceships, would serve as appropriate "intermediate steps" for voyages to Mars and other worlds. "It's part of my unified space vision," he told me during an international gathering of spacefliers and mission managers at Seattle's Museum of Flight. <snip> |
Response to Ratty (Reply #15)
Tue Sep 25, 2012, 01:12 PM
bananas (20,174 posts)
34. NASA response: see page 26 of the chapter "Habitation and Destination Capabilities"
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Last edited Tue Sep 25, 2012, 01:13 PM USA/ET - Edit history (1) http://nasawatch.com/archives/2012/09/nasa-ready-to-a.html
<snip> NASA PAO has provided this verbose, stock-phrase rich, non-denial-denial response to the Orlando Sentinel article: "NASA is executing President Obama's ambitious space exploration plan that includes missions around the moon, to asteroids, and ultimately putting humans on Mars. There are many options - and many routes - being discussed on our way to the Red Planet. In addition to the moon and an asteroid, other options may be considered as we look for ways to buy down risk - and make it easier - to get to Mars. We have regular meetings with OMB, OSTP, Congress, and other stakeholders to keep them apprised of our progress on our deep space exploration destinations. This concept is a part of the Voyages document that we mentioned in an earlier Update posted on NASA.gov in June: http://go.nasa.gov/NASAvoyages ." Refer to page 26 of the chapter titled, "Habitation and Destination Capabilities." |
Response to bananas (Original post)
Sun Sep 23, 2012, 02:54 PM
Ash_F (1,744 posts)
16. $17.7 billion for NASA; 1.6 trillion for the military
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Our NASA budget is 1% of our military budget.
The irony of it all is that someday our massive army probably wont stand against some other nation's more technologically advanced military, as has happened so many times in history. |
Response to Ash_F (Reply #16)
Mon Sep 24, 2012, 02:02 PM
Posteritatis (17,300 posts)
22. It bugs me that some people still seem to think NASA's budget's similar to the DoD's. (nt)
Response to Posteritatis (Reply #22)
Mon Sep 24, 2012, 02:16 PM
Ash_F (1,744 posts)
23. Oh also, some of that 17.7 billion is for the military portion of NASA. /nt
Response to bananas (Original post)
Sun Sep 23, 2012, 11:46 PM
daleo (19,947 posts)
18. Radiation would be a concern that far out
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It's an interesting idea.
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Response to bananas (Original post)
Mon Sep 24, 2012, 06:00 AM
joshcryer (39,760 posts)
20. Thank you President Obama.
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Ending Cx was the best thing to ever occur to manned space.
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Response to bananas (Original post)
Mon Sep 24, 2012, 02:23 PM
NickB79 (9,414 posts)
24. Better put in Braile control systems, because they'll all go blind halfway through the mission
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Last edited Mon Sep 24, 2012, 02:24 PM USA/ET - Edit history (1) http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2039777/Nasas-mission-Mars-Scientists-fear-future-astronauts-blind.html
A mission to Mars may be high on NASA's wish list but the agency will have to solve a serious problem first.
Scientists fear astronauts could go blind after discovering an eye condition that erodes the vision of those who have spent months in space. The illness has already been found among some astronauts who have spent months aboard the International Space Station and now doctors fear future explorers could go completely blind by the end of a long mission, such as a trip to Mars which could take several years. Hopefully they can find a solution to this, but until they do, long-term space exploration by humans is not in the cards. |
Response to NickB79 (Reply #24)
Mon Sep 24, 2012, 02:26 PM
Posteritatis (17,300 posts)
25. Or it's the Daily Mail being vague and alarmist, like they are with everything under the sun.. (nt)
Response to Posteritatis (Reply #25)
Mon Sep 24, 2012, 02:38 PM
NickB79 (9,414 posts)
26. Multiple news sources have reported on this. Google is your friend
Response to NickB79 (Reply #26)
Mon Sep 24, 2012, 02:42 PM
Ash_F (1,744 posts)
27. Many mariners were lost at sea.
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It doesn't mean human progress should be halted. Obviously it is problem on NASA's radar, among many others.
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Response to Ash_F (Reply #27)
Mon Sep 24, 2012, 06:05 PM
bananas (20,174 posts)
29. Interesting similarity, mariners got scurvy from vitamin C deficiency
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and as I pointed out downthread, folate deficiency is likely the cause of the vision problems in astronauts.
"James Lind is viewed as the founding father of Epidemiology" http://justhistory.hubpages.com/hub/James-Lind-who-discovered-a-cure-for-scurvy
James Lind who's experiment discovered a cure for scurvy What was scurvy? Scurvy was an illness that was prevalent amongst sailors on ships. The symptoms of the disease are exhaustion and feeling extremely unwell followed by spots which ooze and bleeding sores, especially on the gums. Sailors who caught scurvy were not fit enough to work and on long voyages the ship and the crew were put in danger as there were not enough fit men to crew her. Although the disease had been recognised since the time of the Romans, a cure was not found. James Lind, a naval surgeon of board the 60 gun HMS Salisbury was responsible for one of the most important medical developments of the eighteenth century. Born in Edinburgh in 1816 he trained as a doctor before entering the Royal Navy as a surgeons mate. There had been theories, especially that of John Woodall in the seventeenth century that Citrus fruit might be a cure for scurvy. <snip> James Lind Alliance James Lind is remembered today with the formation in 2004 of the James Lind Alliance, which brings carers, patients and medical experts together to address uncertainties in research and the effects of medical treatment- echoing James Lind’s experiments onboard HMS Salisbury. Today Epidemiology is a science where the causes of disease are investigated and solutions or cures found wherever possible using both statistical and environmental data. James Lind is viewed as the founding father of Epidemiology. |
Response to NickB79 (Reply #26)
Mon Sep 24, 2012, 05:52 PM
bananas (20,174 posts)
28. New research indicates it's folate deficiency, giving us another health spin-off from NASA
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Last edited Mon Sep 24, 2012, 06:15 PM USA/ET - Edit history (1) "While it’s not likely that you’ll encounter an astronaut in your waiting room anytime soon, these findings may have clinical import to those on Earth as well."
http://www.sciencebasedhealth.com/ContentPage.aspx?WebpageId=485
Folic acid, B12 & Vision in Astronauts | Omega-3s & Brain Volume Visual Changes Post-Space Flight May be Due to Altered Folic Acid & B12 Metabolism About 20% of astronauts who’ve been on International Space Station (ISS) missions have developed ophthalmic changes after flight, including optic disc edema, globe flattening, choroidal folds, hyperopic shifts, and cotton wool spots. But why are some but not other astronauts affected? NASA researchers in collaboration with several universities have conducted experiments on ISS since 2006 to answer this question. The investigative team found biochemical differences in crewmembers with vision issues, which strongly suggest that their folate and vitamin B12 dependent 1-carbon transfer metabolism was affected before, during, and after flight. One-carbon metabolites, including homocysteine, were 25-45% higher (P, 0.001) in those with ophthalmic changes than in those without them, and crewmembers with vision issues had consistently lower serum folate during flight. Pre-flight levels of homocysteine and cystathionine, and in-flight levels of folate, correlated with changes in refraction observed after flight (1). The researchers believe that common polymorphisms in enzymes of this pathway (e.g. MTHFR 677C/T) interact with the shift in cranial fluids encountered at “zero” gravity in space to cause these ophthalmic changes. While it’s not likely that you’ll encounter an astronaut in your waiting room anytime soon, these findings may have clinical import to those on Earth as well. One of the most studied polymorphisms in this pathway is MTHFR 677C/T, which has an allele frequency of 30% in many ethnic groups. Heterozygotes (C/T) have a 30% decrease in the activity of the enzyme MTHFR and homozygotes (T/T) a 60% decrease in this critical enzyme. Evidence suggests that individuals with these polymorphisms may require more folic acid to maintain their status of this B-vitamin. While Americans are getting more dietary folic acid than ever due to food fortification, getting some extra folic acid via a multi-vitamin supplement may be a good idea considering the high frequency of the polymorphisms, and that elevated homocysteine is a risk factor for ischemic stroke, inter-cranial aneurysms, migraine headaches, and possibly occlusive retinal vascular disease and some types of glaucoma. Many could also benefit from supplemental B12 due to the difficultly of its absorption in older people. <snip> |


