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Tue Sep 18, 2012, 01:27 PM

A Faded Piece of Papyrus Refers to Jesus' Wife

Source: The New York Times

CAMBRIDGE, Mass. — A historian of early Christianity at Harvard Divinity School has discovered a scrap of papyrus that she says was written in Coptic in the fourth century and contains a phrase never seen in any piece of Scripture: “Jesus said to them, ‘My wife …'”

The faded papyrus fragment is smaller than a business card, with eight lines on one side, in black ink legible under a magnifying glass. Just below the line about Jesus having a wife, the papyrus includes a second provocative clause that purportedly says, “she will be able to be my disciple.”

The finding is being made public in Rome on Tuesday at an international meeting of Coptic scholars by the historian Karen L. King, who has published several books about new Gospel discoveries and is the first woman to hold the nation’s oldest endowed chair, the Hollis professor of divinity.

The provenance of the papyrus fragment is a mystery, and its owner has asked to remain anonymous. Until Tuesday, Dr. King had shown the fragment to only a small circle of experts in papyrology and Coptic linguistics, who concluded that it is most likely not a forgery. But she and her collaborators say they are eager for more scholars to weigh in and perhaps upend their conclusions.

Read more: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/19/us/historian-says-piece-of-papyrus-refers-to-jesus-wife.html?pagewanted=all&_moc.semityn.www



I wonder if this has anything to do with the Nag Hamadi discoveries?

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Reply A Faded Piece of Papyrus Refers to Jesus' Wife (Original post)
Octafish Sep 2012 OP
librechik Sep 2012 #1
LiberalEsto Sep 2012 #43
loudsue Sep 2012 #49
Xolodno Sep 2012 #106
librechik Sep 2012 #110
mahatmakanejeeves Sep 2012 #2
Berlum Sep 2012 #7
AnneD Sep 2012 #15
tblue37 Sep 2012 #27
IronicNews Sep 2012 #122
RevStPatrick Sep 2012 #3
MicaelS Sep 2012 #6
LynneSin Sep 2012 #20
Randomthought Sep 2012 #24
LynneSin Sep 2012 #25
ToxMarz Sep 2012 #39
renaissanceguy Sep 2012 #97
NOLALady Sep 2012 #26
siligut Sep 2012 #37
Ghost Dog Sep 2012 #70
malthaussen Sep 2012 #55
IronicNews Sep 2012 #123
siligut Sep 2012 #40
kenfrequed Sep 2012 #119
Bragi Sep 2012 #4
stopbush Sep 2012 #11
Bragi Sep 2012 #13
Blue State Bandit Sep 2012 #42
malthaussen Sep 2012 #57
Bragi Sep 2012 #67
Ghost Dog Sep 2012 #72
kwassa Sep 2012 #95
Bragi Sep 2012 #96
Moonwalk Sep 2012 #78
FiveGoodMen Sep 2012 #79
fascisthunter Sep 2012 #86
GeorgeGist Sep 2012 #100
malthaussen Sep 2012 #120
kenfrequed Sep 2012 #118
azurnoir Sep 2012 #62
Ghost Dog Sep 2012 #74
yellerpup Sep 2012 #28
zeemike Sep 2012 #54
BarackTheVote Sep 2012 #5
mckara Sep 2012 #76
BarackTheVote Sep 2012 #90
mckara Sep 2012 #94
lunatica Sep 2012 #8
Indpndnt Sep 2012 #47
dmallind Sep 2012 #9
KurtNYC Sep 2012 #10
dmosh42 Sep 2012 #12
olddad56 Sep 2012 #16
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ellie Sep 2012 #33
thc420 Sep 2012 #46
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tblue37 Sep 2012 #30
BarackTheVote Sep 2012 #32
mpdog Sep 2012 #36
aquart Sep 2012 #59
Ghost Dog Sep 2012 #77
struggle4progress Sep 2012 #14
Octafish Sep 2012 #60
Bragi Sep 2012 #69
Octafish Sep 2012 #105
newspeak Sep 2012 #107
Octafish Sep 2012 #109
newspeak Sep 2012 #121
Evasporque Sep 2012 #17
onethatcares Sep 2012 #48
Evasporque Sep 2012 #51
Evasporque Sep 2012 #18
olddad56 Sep 2012 #21
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RoccoR5955 Sep 2012 #56
Evasporque Sep 2012 #22
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tblue37 Sep 2012 #31
BarackTheVote Sep 2012 #34
pangaia Sep 2012 #35
Did I Just Type This Sep 2012 #38
malthaussen Sep 2012 #61
Spitfire of ATJ Sep 2012 #41
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adigal Sep 2012 #98
progressoid Sep 2012 #114
Xolodno Sep 2012 #44
WeekendWarrior Sep 2012 #45
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jmowreader Sep 2012 #116
global1 Sep 2012 #53
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Shitty Mitty Sep 2012 #88
Xolodno Sep 2012 #65
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pinto Sep 2012 #71
FiveGoodMen Sep 2012 #80
4th law of robotics Sep 2012 #73
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Ken Burch Sep 2012 #75
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idwiyo Sep 2012 #93
no_hypocrisy Sep 2012 #102
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Arugula Latte Sep 2012 #113
Guy Whitey Corngood Sep 2012 #115
bobthedrummer Sep 2012 #117

Response to Octafish (Original post)

Tue Sep 18, 2012, 01:32 PM

1. "The provenance of the papyrus fragment is a mystery, and its owner

has asked to remain anonymous. " (from the NYT article)

altho I agree it is most likely part of the Nag Hamadi find.

This discovery should cause the Catholic Church (among others) to implode and self destruct. Count on a vast and furious political fight to discredit it.

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Response to librechik (Reply #1)

Tue Sep 18, 2012, 03:35 PM

43. I wouldn't be surprised if the Vatican had more evidence of this

but was keeping it hidden because they are misogynists

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Response to LiberalEsto (Reply #43)

Tue Sep 18, 2012, 04:05 PM

49. It is illogical to me that they would EVER be honest about anything.

There is so much more control to be had, and so much more money to be made, by them, if they keep things JUST THE WAY THEY DECIDED TO MAKE THEM almost 300 years after Jesus of Nazareth died.

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Response to librechik (Reply #1)

Wed Sep 19, 2012, 10:44 AM

106. Nope.

Not a thing will happen. The "scripture" in question is probably not from canonized book...so, to them its not scripture....and will view it as fiction. End of debate on their part.

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Response to Xolodno (Reply #106)

Wed Sep 19, 2012, 12:44 PM

110. lol--you are exactly right.

Notice I said "should" cause them to self destruct--if there were any justice in the world. (oor should I say "if there were a God, He would set things right.)

gawd I hate true believers.

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Response to Octafish (Original post)

Tue Sep 18, 2012, 01:34 PM

2. Take my wife.

Please.

We were walking by the Sea of Galilee the other day. My wife told me the car wasn't running well; there was water in the carburetor. I asked where the car was, and she told me it was in the lake.

http://www.funny2.com/hennye.htm

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Response to mahatmakanejeeves (Reply #2)

Tue Sep 18, 2012, 01:40 PM

7. Ba da boom

ba da bing

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Response to mahatmakanejeeves (Reply #2)

Tue Sep 18, 2012, 02:02 PM

15. Take my wife,...

Please.

I brought a few friends home from the office.

So my wife says to me "Why didn't you call, I would have made extra. All we have is some dried fish, bread and water. If you keep doing this, you need to figure something out!"

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Response to mahatmakanejeeves (Reply #2)

Tue Sep 18, 2012, 02:46 PM

27. So I smiled and walked on out to get it. nt

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Response to mahatmakanejeeves (Reply #2)

Wed Sep 19, 2012, 11:12 PM

122. I SOOOOOOO had the exact same thought.

Funny

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Response to Octafish (Original post)

Tue Sep 18, 2012, 01:34 PM

3. Of course! His wife Mary Magdelene.

 

I thought everybody knew that.
Long before that silly DaVinci Code shit.
I don't think this is from the Nag Hamadi, however...

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Response to RevStPatrick (Reply #3)

Tue Sep 18, 2012, 01:40 PM

6. Hypothesis put forward in 1982 in the book "The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail".

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Response to RevStPatrick (Reply #3)

Tue Sep 18, 2012, 02:26 PM

20. I thought Mary Magdeline was the town whore?

I mean that's how the bible labels women they view as having too much power in their faith.

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Response to LynneSin (Reply #20)

Tue Sep 18, 2012, 02:33 PM

24. she wasn't a whore

until some 6th century pope declared her one. As you said women can't have too much power or any power.

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Response to Randomthought (Reply #24)

Tue Sep 18, 2012, 02:39 PM

25. Agree

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Response to Randomthought (Reply #24)

Tue Sep 18, 2012, 03:26 PM

39. I believe it was Pope Limbaugh

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Response to Randomthought (Reply #24)

Tue Sep 18, 2012, 11:40 PM

97. Exactly. That was a falsehood perpetuated

by the Man-In-Charge, aka, the Pope. The Catholic church unfortunately didn't want women to have power, which is why priests are still not allowed to marry.

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Response to LynneSin (Reply #20)

Tue Sep 18, 2012, 02:43 PM

26. I thought all

single women in the bible were considered whores.

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Response to NOLALady (Reply #26)

Tue Sep 18, 2012, 03:23 PM

37. Or virgins

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Response to NOLALady (Reply #26)

Tue Sep 18, 2012, 05:59 PM

70. That's because it's a fucked-up religion.

(Or, not so much... The Followers... Fucked, I mean... Nicely, I mean).

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Response to LynneSin (Reply #20)

Tue Sep 18, 2012, 04:17 PM

55. Hey, whores make good wives.

An interesting piece of papyrus. The Gospel of Mary Magdalene is one of my favorites, because it contains such tantilizing hints about what was really going on among the disciples back in the day.

Personally, I've always thought the line "upon this rock I will build my church" was a mistranslation or misrepresentation. I think Yeshua was just calling Simon a blockhead.

-- Mal

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Response to malthaussen (Reply #55)

Wed Sep 19, 2012, 11:14 PM

123. Ha. Thank you for defending the Whores. LOL

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Response to RevStPatrick (Reply #3)

Tue Sep 18, 2012, 03:26 PM

40. Yup, and there are living descendents

Cults are built around this idea.

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Response to RevStPatrick (Reply #3)

Wed Sep 19, 2012, 02:41 PM

119. Still... Dan Brown does do a fist bump to the air anyhow

I agree. I thought the DaVinci code was rehash of Holy Blood Holy Grail. Still, I think considering all the crap the Catholic church threw and all the money went to undercutting a book that was fiction that someone has to point out to the church that Brown's fiction is no less fictional than the Bible.

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Response to Octafish (Original post)

Tue Sep 18, 2012, 01:36 PM

4. Interesting, however...

I note the article states:

"(King) repeatedly cautioned that this fragment should not be taken as proof that Jesus, the historical person, was actually married. The text was probably written centuries after Jesus lived, and all other early, historically reliable Christian literature is silent on the question, she said."

I would also note that, like the gospels, this just means people were talking about an alleged religious figure from hundreds of years ago named Jesus.

I would also note that this does not offer any actual evidence that the "historical Jesus" is ever actually existed. We only know what people wrote about him long after he was alleged to have lived.

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Response to Bragi (Reply #4)

Tue Sep 18, 2012, 01:54 PM

11. Jesus was a historical figure? Since when?

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Response to stopbush (Reply #11)

Tue Sep 18, 2012, 02:00 PM

13. Good question

I know the alleged Jesus wasn't officially declared a "god" until the Council of Nicene in 325 AD.

Whether he really existed, however, remains a matter of speculation.

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Response to Bragi (Reply #13)

Tue Sep 18, 2012, 03:34 PM

42. He went by the name "Joshua Ben Joseph"

according to multiple sources.

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Response to Blue State Bandit (Reply #42)

Tue Sep 18, 2012, 04:19 PM

57. Whether your ancestors lived remains a matter of speculation

I defy anyone, and I mean anyone, to provide irrefutable documentary proof that their ancestors were alive in AD 30. Yet clearly, all of us living now had ancestors living then.

-- Mal

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Response to malthaussen (Reply #57)

Tue Sep 18, 2012, 05:12 PM

67. There is a suspcious lack of any contemporary records and accounts

There are lots of people whom we know from contemporary accounts were alive in 30 AD. Pontius Pilate, for example, lived and ruled and left a mountain of recorded documentation, but none of it talks about the alleged trial and execution of a famous Jewish rebel named Jesus. Odd, what with the Romans being pretty fastidious record-keepers.

And yet, if I may quote a Freethinker site:

"No one has the slightest physical evidence to support a historical Jesus; no artifacts, dwelling, works of carpentry, or self-written manuscripts. All claims about Jesus derive from writings of other people. There occurs no contemporary Roman record that shows Pontius Pilate executing a man named Jesus. Devastating to historians, there occurs not a single contemporary writing that mentions Jesus. All documents about Jesus came well after the life of the alleged Jesus from either: unknown authors, people who had never met an earthly Jesus, or from fraudulent, mythical or allegorical writings."

http://www.nobeliefs.com/exist.htm

- B

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Response to Bragi (Reply #67)

Tue Sep 18, 2012, 06:16 PM

72. Yes, I have understood for over 40 years that that is so, to the best of our knowledge.

The rest is conjecture.

I've understood that such a man (singled-out and given a rabbinical education) as described, nevertheless, would probably have assumed the rôle of some sort of Jewish rabbi, and it would have been quite unusual for such a man not to have been married by the age of 33 in that milieu at that time (as it is normal for such men to be married to this day).

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Response to Bragi (Reply #67)

Tue Sep 18, 2012, 10:57 PM

95. There is nothing suspicious about it. There are few contemporary records and accounts.

There is no mountain of documentation about anyone from that time. No newspapers, no television, nothing. No historians, really, except Josephus considerably later, as the occupation of historian really didn't exist.

and quoting an atheist site is quoting the most biased possible source. Try peer-reviewed historians, instead.

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Response to kwassa (Reply #95)

Tue Sep 18, 2012, 11:33 PM

96. Well then

I therefore say unto you that no man has the slightest physical evidence to support a historical Jesus; no artifacts, dwelling, works of carpentry, or self-written manuscripts. All claims about Jesus derive from writings of other people. There occurs no contemporary Roman record that shows Pontius Pilate executing a man named Jesus. Devastating to historians, there occurs not a single contemporary writing that mentions Jesus, but for the disputed Josephus. All documents about Jesus came well after the life of the alleged Jesus from either: unknown authors, people who had never met an earthly Jesus, or from fraudulent, mythical or allegorical writings.

Thus spoke I. Have a great day.

- Bragi

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Response to malthaussen (Reply #57)

Tue Sep 18, 2012, 06:51 PM

78. You're joking right? Otherwise this is bizarre logic...as you say, we're evidence of our ancestors..

...having existed. We may not know who they were or what they did, but they existed because we're here. But Jesus, having no descendants, doesn't even have that much evidence.

In the end, however, you're comparing apples and oranges. What people are trying to argue when they say Jesus really existed is not the same as me saying that my great-great-great-great-great grandmother (whose name I don't know, who I know nothing about) existed.

Let's try this. If I told you a story about an ancestor of mine who walked on water and performed other miracles, you probably wouldn't believe me, would you? And you'd want to see some proof of that ancestor having existed--I mean, if my ancestor really did walk on water...wouldn't someone at the time have written about it? This is big news and there were people at that time who could and did write up the big news. Just look at all those who wrote about Spartacus, a slave who caused a lot of trouble.

If all we had of Spartacus were stories written up a hundred years after the fact and claiming that he brought back people from the dead...would that be enough for you to believe he existed? If so, then you'll have to believe that any person written about by people hundreds of years after the fact must have existed, like, say, Helen of Troy or Hercules.

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Response to malthaussen (Reply #57)

Tue Sep 18, 2012, 06:55 PM

79. Mighty far beside the point since no one is assumed to be the descendant of Jesus.

You know you had ancestors because you're here.

That argument does not carry over to the Jesus issue.

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Response to malthaussen (Reply #57)

Tue Sep 18, 2012, 09:40 PM

86. well, my ancestry is documented as far back as 900 years

in one town in Germany, before it was Germany.

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Response to malthaussen (Reply #57)

Wed Sep 19, 2012, 07:41 AM

100. I think God would have left some irrefutable evidence.

--- George

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Response to GeorgeGist (Reply #100)

Wed Sep 19, 2012, 06:39 PM

120. Why would this supposed god-thing leave evidence

... when belief is based on faith?

-- Mal

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Response to Blue State Bandit (Reply #42)

Wed Sep 19, 2012, 02:38 PM

118. Which sources?

Outside of the bible the writings of Josephus were the only account that even suggests he existed and his writings are scant on the subject and there has always been some doubt as to their authenticity on this matter.

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Response to Bragi (Reply #13)

Tue Sep 18, 2012, 04:29 PM

62. wasn't the first council of Nicea where Mary Magdalene was declared a whore?

in fact the first council is Christianity as we know it today was largely created IMO largely as a political tool to consolidate a fracturing Roman Empire

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #62)

Tue Sep 18, 2012, 06:21 PM

74. The Emperor Constantine

delayed and perhaps it could be said softened somewhat the Empire's fall by, in fact, centuries.

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Response to Bragi (Reply #4)

Tue Sep 18, 2012, 02:49 PM

28. If Jesus was historical

then he would have had to been married. He was called Rabbi often, and in his time only married men could become a rabbi.

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Response to Bragi (Reply #4)

Tue Sep 18, 2012, 04:16 PM

54. As with all things like this it is selective in what is believed.

In other things they would point out that it was written hundreds of years after the fact and so cannot be true....but in this case it is proof positive that it is true.
Personal opinion always gets in the way of real scientific discovery.

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Response to Octafish (Original post)

Tue Sep 18, 2012, 01:37 PM

5. A gnostic document from the 4th century?

This Catholic is shaking in his boots.

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Response to BarackTheVote (Reply #5)

Tue Sep 18, 2012, 06:35 PM

76. Thomas Was a Disciple, if I Recall Correctly

The orthodoxy did what it could to consolidate Christendom, which distorted Western religious beliefs.

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Response to mckara (Reply #76)

Tue Sep 18, 2012, 10:08 PM

90. There are two gospels of Thomas

the first is a childhood narrative that has Jesus creating live doves out of clay and an especially crazy scenario where Jesus turns a schoolmate into a pillar of salt for bullying him. The other gospel of Thomas is a collection of supposed sayings of Jesus, many found in the gospels, but then you have ones like 114:
Simon Peter said to Him, "Let Mary leave us, for women are not worthy of Life."
Jesus said, "I myself shall lead her in order to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males. For every woman who will make herself male will enter the Kingdom of Heaven."


There's a reason why these gnostic gospels aren't in the canon.

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Response to BarackTheVote (Reply #90)

Tue Sep 18, 2012, 10:56 PM

94. Hardly the Reason...

The gnostic gospels reflected the Christian similarities to Mahayana Buddhism, which, if left intact, negated the necessity of the Church orthodoxy. The following passage is more to the point as it threatened the existence of Church authority:

(113) His disciples said to him, "When will the kingdom come?"
<Jesus said,> "It will not come by waiting for it. It will not be a matter of saying 'here it is' or 'there it is.' Rather, the kingdom of the father is spread out upon the earth, and men do not see it."

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Response to Octafish (Original post)

Tue Sep 18, 2012, 01:47 PM

8. I just mentioned this to a work mate and she fucking went off on me!

Wow!

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Response to lunatica (Reply #8)

Tue Sep 18, 2012, 03:51 PM

47. I don't understand people like that, at all. I find it fascinating, not threatening in any way.

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Response to Octafish (Original post)

Tue Sep 18, 2012, 01:49 PM

9. This is especially strange as the Copts were, and remain, monophysites

So how I wonder do they identify to whom the wife was married - Jesus as man or Jesus as God?

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Response to Octafish (Original post)

Tue Sep 18, 2012, 01:51 PM

10. If John 2.1 is not describing the marriage of Jesus then why is his mother there?

She is not a disciple but she seems to take responsibility at THIS wedding. She instructs servants and tells Jesus when the wine has run out.

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Response to KurtNYC (Reply #10)

Tue Sep 18, 2012, 01:59 PM

12. It could have been referring to another "Jesus", like the baker's son, instead of the carpenter's so

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Response to dmosh42 (Reply #12)

Tue Sep 18, 2012, 02:09 PM

16. or maybe Jesus Alou, who played ball for the SF Giants in the 60s.

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Response to olddad56 (Reply #16)

Tue Sep 18, 2012, 02:56 PM

33. !

That was awesome.

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Response to olddad56 (Reply #16)

Tue Sep 18, 2012, 03:43 PM

46. Fabulous...

.280 lifetime batting average...

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Response to thc420 (Reply #46)

Tue Sep 18, 2012, 05:01 PM

66. wwjb

what would Jesus bat?

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Response to KurtNYC (Reply #10)

Tue Sep 18, 2012, 02:21 PM

19. Um...

John 2:2--"Jesus and his disciples were also invited to the wedding." Since when does one need to clarify that the bridegroom was invited to the wedding? After the miracle, "the head waiter called the bridegroom and said to him..." (2b)--the author is clearly introducing a new character. Earlier, when told by Mary that they had run out of wine, Jesus' first reaction is, "Woman, how does your concern affect me?" (2:4); if he WAS the bridegroom, the wine running out would definitely have affected him, So, my point is, your theory has some holes in it.

Also, what? In the year 2313, someone writes that Barack Obama had three wives, you're gonna believe that? If you don't believe documents that were written in the first century, then why do you give greater credence to ones that were written in the 300s? Not exactly primary documents.

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Response to BarackTheVote (Reply #19)

Tue Sep 18, 2012, 02:50 PM

30. No, someone will probably write that he was born in Kenya.

They's assume it to be so because of the innumerable contemporary references they will find to his Kenyan birthplace and citizenship--in print, online, and in copies of broadcast media programming.

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Response to tblue37 (Reply #30)

Tue Sep 18, 2012, 02:53 PM

32. +1 my point, exactly

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Response to BarackTheVote (Reply #19)

Tue Sep 18, 2012, 03:21 PM

36. 3wives

 

Of course he had three wife's.. A daughter A nun and a Moldy goat...

I hope I don't get my head cut off for that...

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Response to BarackTheVote (Reply #19)

Tue Sep 18, 2012, 04:22 PM

59. Yup.

Also, people were so desperate for anything relating to Jesus that there was a thriving market in forgeries and relics.

Robert Eisler's book The Messiah Jesus and John the Baptist puts together a description of the historical Jesus from biblical comments and forgeries of the Roman arrest warrants. Not a pretty fellow, it turns out. The image of Jesus the Western World has been using is related more to a statue of Zeus by Praxiteles (?) I think.

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Response to aquart (Reply #59)

Tue Sep 18, 2012, 06:44 PM

77. Yup. Such (incorrigibly mischivious monkeys) we are. Eg.:

James is described as one of the first disciples to join Jesus. The Synoptic Gospels state that James and John were with their father by the seashore when Jesus called them to follow him. James was one of only three apostles whom Jesus selected to bear witness to his Transfiguration....

SPAIN: ... According to ancient local tradition, on 2 January of the year AD 40, the Virgin Mary appeared to James on the bank of the Ebro River at Caesaraugusta, while he was preaching the Gospel in Iberia. She appeared upon a pillar, Nuestra Señora del Pilar, and that pillar is conserved and venerated within the present Basilica of Our Lady of the Pillar, in Zaragoza, Spain. Following that apparition, St James returned to Judea, where he was beheaded by King Herod Agrippa I in the year 44.

The 12th-century Historia Compostellana commissioned by bishop Diego Gelmírez provides a summary of the legend of St James as it was believed at Compostela. Two propositions are central to it: first, that St James preached the gospel in Iberia as well as in the Holy Land; second, that after his martyrdom at the hands of Herod Agrippa I his disciples carried his body by sea to Iberia, where they landed at Padrón on the coast of Galicia, and took it inland for burial at Santiago de Compostela.

The translation of his relics from Judea to Galicia in the northwest of Iberia was effected, in legend, by a series of miraculous happenings: decapitated in Jerusalem with a sword by Herod Agrippa himself, his body was taken up by angels, and sailed in a rudderless, unattended boat to Iria Flavia in Iberia, where a massive rock closed around his relics, which were later removed to Compostela.

An even later tradition states that he miraculously appeared to fight for the Christian army during the battle of Clavijo,

The Battle of Clavijo was a legendary battle, supposedly fought on May 23rd of 844 near Clavijo between the Christians led by Ramiro I of Asturias and the Muslims led by the Emir of Córdoba. Saint James the Great, known to Spaniards as Santiago Matamoros (the Moor-slayer), is reputed to have aided the vastly outnumbered Christian army. Some aspects of the historical Battle of Monte Laturce (859) were incorporated into this legend, as Claudio Sánchez-Albornoz demonstrated in 1948.

The legend as it survives was first written down in the twelfth century. A forged grant to the Church of Santiago de Compostela by which Ramiro reportedly surrendered a part of the annual tribute owed him by all the Christians of Spain also dates from the mid-twelfth century... - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Clavijo


and was henceforth called Matamoros (Moor-slayer). Santiago y cierra España ("St James and strike for Spain") has been the traditional battle cry of Spanish armies.

A similar miracle is related about San Millán. The possibility that a cult of James was instituted to supplant the Galician cult of Priscillian (executed in 385) who was widely venerated across the north of Iberia as a martyr at the hands of the bishops rather than as a heretic should not be overlooked. This was cautiously raised by Henry Chadwick in his book on Priscillian; it is not the traditional Roman Catholic view... - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James,_son_of_Zebedee#Spain


That kind of shit.

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Response to Octafish (Original post)

Tue Sep 18, 2012, 02:00 PM

14. The Inside Story of a Controversial New Text About Jesus (The Smithsonian)

According to a top religion scholar, this 1,600-year-old text fragment suggests that some early Christians believed Jesus was married—possibly to Mary Magdalene
By Ariel Sabar
Smithsonian.com, September 18, 2012
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history-archaeology/The-Inside-Story-of-the-Controversial-New-Text-About-Jesus-170177076.html?c=y&page=1

Longish but worth a look

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Response to struggle4progress (Reply #14)

Tue Sep 18, 2012, 04:24 PM

60. Thank you very much, struggle4progress!

It is an outstanding read:

The question the discovery raises, King told me, is, “Why is it that only the literature that said he was celibate survived? And all of the texts that showed he had an intimate relationship with Magdalene or is married didn’t survive? Is that 100 percent happenstance? Or is it because of the fact that celibacy becomes the ideal for Christianity?”

Read more: http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history-archaeology/The-Inside-Story-of-the-Controversial-New-Text-About-Jesus-170177076.html#ixzz26r4ITW1c

Absolutely fascinating, in every way.

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Response to Octafish (Reply #60)

Tue Sep 18, 2012, 05:38 PM

69. Pick me, I know the answer to this one!

Q: Why is it that only the literature that said he was celibate survived?

A: Because everything else was suppressed, burned, condemned as heresy, and made illegal.

That was easy.

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Response to Bragi (Reply #69)

Wed Sep 19, 2012, 09:41 AM

105. 1984, right?

He who controls the past controls the future.

Sort of the original Philip Zelikow.

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Response to Octafish (Reply #60)

Wed Sep 19, 2012, 11:55 AM

107. fascinating!!!

I began reading about the nag hamadi texts in the eighties. I believe it's in the book of thomas (the twin) that mentions peter asking jesus, why do you allow her (mary) to kiss you on the mouth? and, a section where jesus says (after peter) basically says mary cannot be a disciple (from my memory "I will make her male"). there is also a book of mary; however, it was not found at nag hamadi.

reading some of the gnostic texts, it seems that peter was jealous and a misogynist. and he becomes the church head. now, what I have read is that there was a division between peter and jesus' brothers on being the head of the church.

what it all boils down to is at nicea, a bunch of guys DECIDED what texts (teachings) were in and what were excluded. and, it didn't bode well for women, some women who had lead parts in the church. also, what was argued was jesus godhood, mother mary's virginity and an argument about original sin.

rome under constantine (a sun god worshipper) embraced christianity. it was a useful religious tool for rome. if you have read anything about pontious pilate, you'd know that he wouldn't have any second thoughts about crucifying a jew. after all, he crucified so many. the story smells about pontius washing his hands (as if he had a conscience) then blaming it on the jews. but, I think, if rome was to embrace the religion, you can't have the government murdering your god.

and, as someone said above, jesus is referred as a rabbi more than once; and rabbis married. it matters little today, because the faithful followers believe what they are told to believe and if jesus appeared today the church leaders would probably say "we've got a good thing going here, we don't need you."

I, do not know if jesus really existed; after all I wasn't there. I also have a problem with josephus and some of the early church leaders (especially altering texts-eusebius(sp)). however, I do have a fascinating book about the parallels of buddhism and the teachings of jesus-how some of the parables are identical; and how buddhism flourished five hundred years before jesus.

my belief is the influence of rome was a strong influence on the direction of christianity; and what redeeming message (especially if it had buddhist influence) may have been perverted to follow the influence of roman (sun god) perceptions.

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Response to newspeak (Reply #107)

Wed Sep 19, 2012, 12:38 PM

109. Satori or Salvation? What's the diff?

Thank you, newspeak for reminding me. Is the book you refer to "The Gospel According to Zen: Beyond the Death of God" edited by Robert Sohl and Audrey Carr? It is outstanding in every way.

In searching for it, I rediscovered the following:



Jesus, the Political Insurgent?

Decoding the Coders of Christ

by Rev. WILLIAM E. ALBERTS
CounterPunch JUNE 14, 2006

The real conspiracy surrounding Jesus is not the cover-up of his marriage to Mary Magdalene, but his theological transformation into the "bridegroom" of the Christian Church (Mark 2: 18-22). Jesus was a Jew not a Christian. He was not about dying so that believers everywhere could inherit eternal life, but about liberating the Jews in his land from Roman occupation. His crucifixion was not about resurrecting the dead but about reviving the living. His sacrifice was not about heaven or hell for all people in the future, but about release and renewal for the Jewish people in this life. The great conspiracy is the early Christian Church turning his model of liberation from an oppressive state into one of accommodation to the state.

It is safer today, as in the past, to believe that Jesus died for the sins of the world than to join in seeking to rid the world of political, corporate and military sins that deny other people their birthright of freedom and fulfillment. Safer because many Christian denominations have allowed themselves to be integrated into and "blessed" and co-opted by the ruling status quo. The real deception of traditional Christianity is its reinterpretation of salvation as an individual matter, apart from institutionalized political and economic realities that greatly determine who, in the gospel words of Jesus, may actually "have life, and have it in its fullest." (John 10:10)

Ironically, Jesus himself seems to be the greatest threat to Christian Churches: his risky model of intervention-of speaking truth to power structures and acting it out-on behalf of oppressed persons. This risk appears to partly underlie institutionalized Christianity’s most deceptive conspiracy: that of immortalizing Jesus in order to immobilize his dangerous model of liberation. The threat his cross poses as a model is removed by turning it into a monument and worshipping it. Vicarious identification with his struggle may be substituted for involvement in similar, hazardous ethical struggles today. Here the power is in the prayer. The stature is in the statue. The right is in the rite.

The personal appeal of saving one’s own soul for all eternity replaces the more caring and challenging commandment to love one’s neighbor as oneself. A gospel of personal redemption may also protect one from seeing how one’s own institutionalized blessings may be another’s curse-gained at another’s expense.

CONTINUED...

http://www.counterpunch.org/2006/06/14/decoding-the-coders-of-christ/



PS: Gnosticism, Zoroastrianism, Buddhism, Islam, Judaism, Christianity, etc etc etc share much -- in particular, the Golden Rule.

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Response to Octafish (Reply #109)

Wed Sep 19, 2012, 11:10 PM

121. sorry octofish, i've been gone all day

the book is "the original jesus-the buddhist sources of christianity," by elmar gruber and holger kersten.

I also enjoy reading matthew fox, he was a catholic priest at one time. his "prayers of the cosmos, meditations on the aramaic words of jesus." it's a small, short book, but quite the mind blower. translating from aramaic, has a total different meaning than what's in the KJV. "our father who art in heaven" instead it's "O birther father-mother of the cosmos, you create all that moves in light (aramaic translation)." KJV "thy will be done on earth, as it is in heaven"-aramaic "your one desire then acts with ours, as in all light, so in all forms."

i've always been fascinated with the beginnings of religious beliefs.

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Response to Octafish (Original post)

Tue Sep 18, 2012, 02:18 PM

17. many fragments from 4th c. exist....

many had thousands upon thousands of papyrus fragments...and it would take a long long time to sift through....and some...for fear have been kept hidden. As in the 4th Century the Christians purged....destroyed all non-cannonical writings and murdered the Gnostics and other heretics....Alexandria was mobbed and the city of intellect was all but destroyed by christian monks commanded by Bishop Cyril...the great dark brutal age began and lasted over a thousand years....it is no wonder writings like this are rare and kept hidden.

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Response to Evasporque (Reply #17)

Tue Sep 18, 2012, 04:00 PM

48. are you saying

that somehow religion caused people to kill others?

Wow, that's a stretch.

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Response to onethatcares (Reply #48)

Tue Sep 18, 2012, 04:10 PM

51. no not at all...

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Response to Octafish (Original post)

Tue Sep 18, 2012, 02:20 PM

18. Humanity could only hope for a new christianity to emerge...soon...

One based in reason and ALL the teachings and sayings of Jesus...not just the selected hand picked ones.

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Response to Evasporque (Reply #18)

Tue Sep 18, 2012, 02:32 PM

21. how about a new spirituality that wasn't based on any particular religion.

Like people just getting in touch with that Spirit within themselves and not depending on the legend of Jesus or the preaching or any of his sales people.

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Response to olddad56 (Reply #21)

Tue Sep 18, 2012, 02:33 PM

23. like UUs....? nt

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Response to olddad56 (Reply #21)

Tue Sep 18, 2012, 04:18 PM

56. It already has...

It's called the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. It's spreading quite quickly.
http://www.venganza.org/
May you be touched by his noodly appendages.

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Response to Octafish (Original post)

Tue Sep 18, 2012, 02:33 PM

22. What will really freak people out is if this fragment comes from....

The Vatican....smuggled out...

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Response to Octafish (Original post)

Tue Sep 18, 2012, 02:50 PM

29. The rest of it has been deciphered!!!

The first two parts read:

‘My wife …'”

“she will be able to be my disciple.”

and the third part reads...

"and still I can hang with you guys to watch the game this weekend".

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Response to Javaman (Reply #29)

Tue Sep 18, 2012, 02:52 PM

31. BTW, weren't the Dead Sea Scrolls found in a man cave? nt

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Response to tblue37 (Reply #31)

Tue Sep 18, 2012, 02:59 PM

34. Thou shalt not vaccuum whilst the game is playing

neither shalt thou nag, neither shalt thou delay in providing the chips and dip. --The Book of Man, chapter 1, verse 1. To Nick Nolte we pray for forgiveness--aaaaamen!

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Response to tblue37 (Reply #31)

Tue Sep 18, 2012, 03:03 PM

35. I like it, I like it.. :>))

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Response to Octafish (Original post)

Tue Sep 18, 2012, 03:24 PM

38. This is not all too surprising

 

There is no mention of or explanation as to why Jesus DIDN'T have a wife. During the era in which Jesus lived, it would have been unheard of for him not to be married. There is little to no mention of any of the disciples wives as well, but they most assuredly traveled with their families, which was the customs of that era. The fact that a reason is not provided for Jesus being unwed is never mentioned and it most certainly would have been addressed if he were not married, is a clear indicator to most scholars that he most likely was married. Harvard Divinity School has done a lot of research on this point and the final "proof" is open to interpretation.

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Response to Did I Just Type This (Reply #38)

Tue Sep 18, 2012, 04:25 PM

61. He was also a good catch

He was a scholar, and his family was well-off enough to own a vacation property. What self-respecting stereotypical Jewish mother wouldn't want her daughter to marry him?

-- Mal

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Response to Octafish (Original post)

Tue Sep 18, 2012, 03:30 PM

41. A lot of Christians can't accept the idea of Jesus having a wife.

Much less having sex with her.

They want their Jesus to be as flaccid as they are....

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Response to Spitfire of ATJ (Reply #41)

Tue Sep 18, 2012, 09:43 PM

87. Sex? With MY Jesus?

Blasphemy I say!!!

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Response to Shitty Mitty (Reply #87)

Tue Sep 18, 2012, 09:54 PM

89. He's not that good, actually....

....people have been let down on a second coming for centuries...

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Response to Spitfire of ATJ (Reply #89)

Wed Sep 19, 2012, 07:16 AM

98. Ok, comment of the year!!! Nt

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Response to Shitty Mitty (Reply #87)

Wed Sep 19, 2012, 02:15 PM

114. I gave my love to Jesus...

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Response to Octafish (Original post)

Tue Sep 18, 2012, 03:38 PM

44. Non-Starter.....

They could find official Jewish and Roman records that state that Jesus was married and it won't matter. Why? Its not "canon" (officially declared authentic scripture). So the Catholic, Orthodox, Coptic and by preponderance Protestant religions can completely ignore this. The Ecumenical Councils and their official decree's incubated themselves well from any challenges to the official line.

The only way their "might" be an uproar is if an older copy of Matthew, Mark, Luke or John is unearthed stating Christ is married. And that's a big maybe. As it is the Gospel of Thomas (not the Gnostic one) is considered to be older than Matthew and contains nothing but the sayings of Jesus, but is rejected.

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Response to Octafish (Original post)

Tue Sep 18, 2012, 03:41 PM

45. Probably a hoax

Especially since there's no historical evidence that the man ever really existed, and a lot of evidence that the myth of Jesus was merely a continuation of earlier religious myths.

Why a large portion of the world continues to cling to the whole Jesus myth slays me. But to each his own.

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Response to WeekendWarrior (Reply #45)

Tue Sep 18, 2012, 08:33 PM

84. Josephus, the Roman historian wrote of him -- although that could be a hoax too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_on_Jesus

The extant manuscripts of the writings of the 1st century Romano-Jewish historian Flavius Josephus include references to Jesus and the origins of Christianity. Josephus' Antiquities of the Jews, written around 93–94 AD, includes two references to Jesus in Books 18 and 20 and a reference to John the Baptist in Book 18.

The overwhelming majority of modern scholars consider the reference in Book 20, Chapter 9, 1 of the Antiquities to "the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James" to be authentic and to have the highest level of authenticity among the references of Josephus to Christianity. Almost all modern scholars consider the reference in Book 18, Chapter 5, 2 of the Antiquities to the imprisonment and death of John the Baptist to also be authentic.

Scholars have differing opinions on the total or partial authenticity of the reference in Book 18, Chapter 3, 3 of the Antiquities to the execution of Jesus by Pontius Pilate, a passage usually called the Testimonium Flavianum. The general scholarly view is that while the Testimonium Flavianum is most likely not authentic in its entirety, it is broadly agreed upon that it originally consisted of an authentic nucleus with a reference to the execution of Jesus by Pilate which was then subject to Christian interpolation. Although the exact nature and extent of the Christian redaction remains unclear there is broad consensus as to what the original text of the Testimonium by Josephus would have looked like.

. . . .

The detail in the Bible about, for example, the disciples, the fact that Judas was probably a zealot, etc. Judas Isacariot is believed by some to be another way of saying Judas the Zealot.

The New Testament Gospels were, of course, written based on some original book that we do not have.

Unless there is new scholarship debunking the authenticity of Josephus' histories and writings about Jesus, I believe that Jesus was known to and spoken of by his contemporaries.

I have heard a theory that perhaps John the Baptist and Jesus were the same person, but I haven't seen much discussion of it.

Some people are troubled by the similarity in the story of the virgin birth and some of the other stories about Jesus and mythology. That doesn't necessarily mean that the stories about Jesus are false. Similar things happen, are noted, and become archetypes that develop into myths. On the other hand, we cannot know what is true in history of that period and what is not.

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Response to JDPriestly (Reply #84)

Tue Sep 18, 2012, 10:25 PM

92. Thanks for that

I followed one of the links and I'm left thinking the material in Josephus' Books may just be interpolations inserted by later Christians.

See http://www.standpointmag.co.uk/node/2507/full

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Response to JDPriestly (Reply #84)

Wed Sep 19, 2012, 12:54 PM

111. The references in question have been debunked time and again

as a forgeries, written long after the fact. And it's already suspect that this is the ONLY mention of Jesus by a contemporary. You'd think that someone who allegedly had an impact on so many lives would have been written about a bit more at the time he was alive, rather than years after he was gone.

And the virgin birth stories aren't mere similarities. They are point by point recreations of the same basic myth -- virgin birth, crucifixion, resurrection. The only thing changed were minor details and the names of the deity involved.

Jesus's "teachings" are merely a rehashing and refinement of previous Jewish philosophy.

There is no empirical or contemporary evidence the man ever existed, let alone the "god." Belief in him is merely a product of blind faith and organized indoctrination.

Ask any child if he believes in Santa Claus and he will tell you, quite fervently, that yes, he surely does. Jesus is merely the "adult" version of Santa Claus.

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Response to Octafish (Original post)

Tue Sep 18, 2012, 04:07 PM

50. I'm waiting for mention of his Bass boat and Mossberg over/under.

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Response to Octafish (Original post)

Tue Sep 18, 2012, 04:12 PM

52. Married or not...

I don't see how it makes any real difference. What effect does being married have on his central message? ...none that I can see.

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Response to sdfernando (Reply #52)

Wed Sep 19, 2012, 02:29 PM

116. It ruins the Jesus rep

Jesus was supposed to have walked the earth healing lepers and feeding the multitudes. receiving no earthly pleasures for himself. That's where the Protestant work ethic thing comes in: give up the joys of this world to have joy in Heaven.

Remember WWJD? Jesus wouldn't have fun and neither should you.

If it turns out Jesus had fun occasionally, that's going to put a crimp on things. If Jesus hadSEX that will ruin the whole faith.

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Response to Octafish (Original post)

Tue Sep 18, 2012, 04:14 PM

53. A Dumb Question Here - Jesus As A Name - Was It A Common Name At That Time.....

or was it a unique name? Did other people go around with the name Jesus? Just asking.

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Response to global1 (Reply #53)

Tue Sep 18, 2012, 04:20 PM

58. It was very common. But not many were documented as "Jesus said to them" ?

There might have been other notable Jesus's at the time but I've never heard of any.

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Response to Kablooie (Reply #58)

Tue Sep 18, 2012, 04:40 PM

64. Barabas, the man who Pilot released, was also named Jesus.

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Response to Kablooie (Reply #58)

Tue Sep 18, 2012, 05:37 PM

68. So My Question Is - Could This Faded Piece of Papyrus That Mentions Jesus's Wife....

be some other Jesus?

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Response to global1 (Reply #68)

Tue Sep 18, 2012, 09:45 PM

88. Doesn't it say something about someone being a disciple?

That'd probably narrow it down a bit.

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Response to global1 (Reply #53)

Tue Sep 18, 2012, 04:45 PM

65. Very common...

...There are two references to him in Josephus, but one is either a forgery or "heavily edited". The other reference is more or less, stating yes their was someone named Jesus called Christ (basically acknowledging the existence of the Jewish Sect). But aside from that, he mentions 20 other people named Jesus, so yeah...pretty common name.

Then you add the fact that the sect didn't really take off until it was declared persona non grata, there might have not been any mention of it.

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Response to Xolodno (Reply #65)

Wed Sep 19, 2012, 08:28 AM

103. Joshua

The name is still common.

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Response to Octafish (Original post)

Tue Sep 18, 2012, 04:38 PM

63. Posted to for future viewing.

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Response to Octafish (Original post)

Tue Sep 18, 2012, 06:01 PM

71. Thought this was historically interesting. Sorry to see so much belittling snark here about it.

It's a piece of historical research. Not advocacy for or against any point of view, not advocacy for or against any religious belief. It's about research and peer review. The only agenda I can see in this is that it's one more attempt to fill in our historical record.

To conflate it as something else belittles that effort.

(ed for spell)

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Response to pinto (Reply #71)

Tue Sep 18, 2012, 07:01 PM

80. The claim has implications.

People will react to those implications.

How could it be otherwise?

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Response to Octafish (Original post)

Tue Sep 18, 2012, 06:18 PM

73. They shouldn't publish stuff like this. It may be offensive to Christians

 

who will riot and kill people if their sensibilities are upset.

She should be censored and possibly tried for inciting violence.

/you can't yell fire in a crowded theater!

//and if it was needed.

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Response to 4th law of robotics (Reply #73)

Tue Sep 18, 2012, 07:17 PM

82. Yeah. But you're not a true believer.

True believers should be treated with great respect.

... A man is a good retainer to the extent that he earnestly places importance in his master. This is the highest sort of retainer. If one is born into a prominent family that goes back for generations, it is sufficient to deeply consider the matter of obligation to one’s ancestors, to lay down one’s body and mind, and to earnestly esteem one’s master. It is further good fortune if, more than this, one has wisdom and talent and can use them appropriately... - Hagakure: Book of the Samurai: http://judoinfo.com/pdf/hagakure.pdf

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Response to Ghost Dog (Reply #82)

Wed Sep 19, 2012, 08:30 AM

104. that`s right... bring up the samurians!

what next? the believers in Zoroaster?

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Response to 4th law of robotics (Reply #73)

Wed Sep 19, 2012, 07:47 AM

101. I'm sure the Pope will issue a fatwa (nt)

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Response to Octafish (Original post)

Tue Sep 18, 2012, 06:28 PM

75. "Ratzi" will definitely not want to go there.

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Response to Octafish (Original post)

Tue Sep 18, 2012, 07:08 PM

81. The parchment is true, and furthermore, it was not a happy union

That's why he spent so much time fishing with his buds.

TlalocW

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Response to TlalocW (Reply #81)

Tue Sep 18, 2012, 07:21 PM

83. She'd have crucified him if she knew he could just make fish from nothing

 

and loaves.

/too soon?

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Response to 4th law of robotics (Reply #83)

Wed Sep 19, 2012, 01:05 PM

112. A friend told me that

INRI is an acronym for the Latin punchline, "Take my wife... please!"

TlalocW

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Response to Octafish (Original post)

Tue Sep 18, 2012, 09:35 PM

85. because he did have a wife... sorry priests

your celibacy was crap all along. Time to move on.

PS... he was an Occupy Liberal

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Response to fascisthunter (Reply #85)

Wed Sep 19, 2012, 07:20 AM

99. Your last comment was amazingly accurate!

He would be out there protesting with us!

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Response to Octafish (Original post)

Tue Sep 18, 2012, 10:09 PM

91. So..the chances that Dan Brown and the "DaVinci Code" were on target just got better. Who knew?

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Response to Octafish (Original post)

Tue Sep 18, 2012, 10:49 PM

93. K&R

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Response to Octafish (Original post)

Wed Sep 19, 2012, 08:15 AM

102. That's it! Priests are free to marry now!!

Or will The Vatican maintain its marriage ban to keep property "in the Family"?

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Response to Octafish (Original post)

Wed Sep 19, 2012, 12:03 PM

108. "Jesus- pls take out the garbage before you go fishing XOXOX" (nt)

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Response to Octafish (Original post)

Wed Sep 19, 2012, 02:09 PM

113. Not only did JC have a wife, she was a regular on "Real Housewives of Nazareth."

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Response to Octafish (Original post)

Wed Sep 19, 2012, 02:16 PM

115. Isn't Piece Papyrus the chairman of the RNC?

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Response to Octafish (Original post)

Wed Sep 19, 2012, 02:31 PM

117. That myth has been around since The Queen of Heaven cult 6,000 years or more-His Bride is the Church


K&R.

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