HomeLatest ThreadsGreatest ThreadsForums & GroupsMy SubscriptionsMy Posts
DU Home » Latest Threads » Forums & Groups » Main » Latest Breaking News (Forum) » Hobby Lobby sues governme...
Introducing Discussionist: A new forum by the creators of DU

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 08:29 PM

Hobby Lobby sues government over healthcare mandate

Source: (Reuters)


(Reuters) - Hobby Lobby, an arts and crafts retailer founded by evangelical Christians, sued the Obama administration on Wednesday to stop a mandate under the federal healthcare reform law to provide drugs such as the morning-after pill to employees through their health insurance.

The lawsuit, filed in District Court in the Western District of Oklahoma, seeks a permanent injunction against the government on behalf of Hobby Lobby and other companies that have religious convictions against abortion.

"These abortion-causing drugs go against our faith," said David Green, founder and chief executive officer of Hobby Lobby Stores Inc, in a call with reporters. "We simply cannot abandon our religious beliefs to comply with this mandate."

The U.S. Justice Department did not respond to a request for comment on the lawsuit on Wednesday.

Hobby Lobby is facing a January 1 deadline to comply with the mandate. Should it refuse, it would face a penalty of $1.3 million per year, under the 2010 Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act, a lawyer representing the company said.



Read more: http://in.reuters.com/article/2012/09/12/us-usa-health-hobby-lobby-idINBRE88B1OI20120912



one more for the list!

60 replies, 7644 views

Reply to this thread

Back to top Alert abuse

Always highlight: 10 newest replies | Replies posted after I mark a forum
Replies to this discussion thread
Arrow 60 replies Author Time Post
Reply Hobby Lobby sues government over healthcare mandate (Original post)
trailmonkee Sep 2012 OP
Bigredhunk Sep 2012 #1
NYC_SKP Sep 2012 #2
freshwest Sep 2012 #3
RazBerryBeret Sep 2012 #31
tanyev Sep 2012 #43
naaman fletcher Sep 2012 #59
catchnrelease Sep 2012 #4
Sherman A1 Sep 2012 #5
PatrynXX Sep 2012 #6
WestWisconsinDem Sep 2012 #7
bucolic_frolic Sep 2012 #8
marble falls Sep 2012 #9
TwilightGardener Sep 2012 #10
pstokely Sep 2012 #30
47of74 Sep 2012 #45
rgbecker Sep 2012 #11
quaker bill Sep 2012 #12
JesterCS Sep 2012 #42
quaker bill Sep 2012 #47
Javaman Sep 2012 #13
Odin2005 Sep 2012 #14
OmahaBlueDog Sep 2012 #15
rock Sep 2012 #60
Javaman Sep 2012 #16
They_Live Sep 2012 #21
ladym55 Sep 2012 #27
Dont_Bogart_the_Pretzel Sep 2012 #48
Le Taz Hot Sep 2012 #40
Le Taz Hot Sep 2012 #53
They_Live Sep 2012 #17
caseymoz Sep 2012 #25
They_Live Sep 2012 #50
caseymoz Sep 2012 #58
caseymoz Sep 2012 #54
oldsarge54 Sep 2012 #18
wiggs Sep 2012 #19
ladym55 Sep 2012 #28
wiggs Sep 2012 #38
blackspade Sep 2012 #20
madrchsod Sep 2012 #22
caseymoz Sep 2012 #23
onehandle Sep 2012 #24
azureblue Sep 2012 #26
ladym55 Sep 2012 #29
trailmonkee Sep 2012 #33
Hayabusa Sep 2012 #32
Dyedinthewoolliberal Sep 2012 #34
jmowreader Sep 2012 #35
JRLeft Sep 2012 #36
pstokely Sep 2012 #37
Le Taz Hot Sep 2012 #39
wildeyed Sep 2012 #41
47of74 Sep 2012 #44
sammytko Sep 2012 #46
greymattermom Sep 2012 #57
AverageJoe90 Sep 2012 #49
They_Live Sep 2012 #51
greymattermom Sep 2012 #56
CrispyQ Sep 2012 #52
hedgehog Sep 2012 #55

Response to trailmonkee (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 08:34 PM

1. Hobby Lobby Blows

They took out a full page ad in our paper (Telegraph Herald) sometime within the past 6 months (Easter?). It read: "One Nation UNDER GOD." There was some other bullshit to it too (something about praying for judges or something). I knew then they sucked (and blew).

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to trailmonkee (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 08:34 PM

2. First of all, they suck. Second, they don't even sell hobby stuff.

So they double suck.

I went to one a month ago, big bog store filled with craft shit, hardly any hobby stuff (in the old school hobby sense).

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to NYC_SKP (Reply #2)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 08:37 PM

3. All made in China, probably. Maybe) a money laundering operation (like Komen for the GOP?).

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to NYC_SKP (Reply #2)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 10:59 PM

31. Ha!

That's what my kids said when I took them to a Hobby Lobby a couple months ago. "where's the Hobby stuff? This is like JoAnn Fabrics..." funny!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to NYC_SKP (Reply #2)

Thu Sep 13, 2012, 08:48 AM

43. Third, they play contemporary Christian Muzak in their stores.

At least the one by me has the three times I've ever been in there.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to NYC_SKP (Reply #2)

Fri Sep 14, 2012, 12:24 PM

59. I was in there the other day

 

Buying yarn for my daughter for something or other. Walking through the store all I could think of was "who the fuck buys this crap?"

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to trailmonkee (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 08:39 PM

4. Thanks for posting this info

Wow, I'm glad to learn about this. I had heard a new Hobby Lobby is opening in my area and was looking forward to having a new source for art supplies. Oh well, no way I'm giving them any of my $$$.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to trailmonkee (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 08:44 PM

5. Good for them

They have made a business decision to sue the government regarding this provision of the Health Care Act. I can likewise make a business decision to shop elsewhere when looking for the products they carry. Enough people do that and perhaps they may review their business decision.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to trailmonkee (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 08:44 PM

6. tend to like Hobby Lobby

because they have great storage boxes. but everything they sell is made by the super cheap chinese spots. and they don't seem to treat their employees well enough anyway. I may have to stop going then.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to trailmonkee (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 08:44 PM

7. eff the "Christian taliban"

 

That's all these yahoos are. And it's nothing more than a warehouse-sized store filled with crippity-crap.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to trailmonkee (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 08:44 PM

8. Absolutely Ridiculous

If they don't want to use the morning after pill, don't use it.

They only hire Fundies anyway, so who among their employees would use it?

Carving up the laws to suit these strict convictionists is making everything
as complicated as the IRS Tax Code!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to trailmonkee (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 08:46 PM

9. No problem. I will no longer shop at Hobby Lobby.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to trailmonkee (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 08:47 PM

10. Like the chicken place, they are not open on Sunday.

Isn't Sunday when people might pursue...I don't know, HOBBIES?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to TwilightGardener (Reply #10)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 10:53 PM

30. Sunday is for the Lawd

nt

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to pstokely (Reply #30)

Thu Sep 13, 2012, 11:28 AM

45. And for NASCAR

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to trailmonkee (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 08:54 PM

11. 1.3 Million is a small price to pay to keep from letting employees take birth control pills.

These "Christians" ought to be happy they can remain faithful so cheaply.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to trailmonkee (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 09:10 PM

12. Could my business be exempt from war taxes please

War taxes go against my faith.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to quaker bill (Reply #12)

Thu Sep 13, 2012, 08:33 AM

42. youd save a shit load. 80 cents of every dollar in tax is DoD money =p

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to JesterCS (Reply #42)

Thu Sep 13, 2012, 06:31 PM

47. Quakers have been objecting to all war and the preparations for war

on a religious basis for 350+ years. If the length of our history objecting has any bearing, we have been at it +/- 10X as long.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to trailmonkee (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 09:15 PM

13. Timing is everything....

I stopped into a hobby lobby for the first time in years to look around. I got a little nostalgic when looking at the various airplane models. They had some good prices on some art materials and thought I should check them out when I need to replenish.

Not anymore.

F them.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to trailmonkee (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 09:18 PM

14. FUCK, I didn't know they were Talibornagain nutjobs.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to trailmonkee (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 09:18 PM

15. Hey - I opposed the war in Iraq, but I still paid my taxes

The law is the law -- you can't just pick and choose the ones you like.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to OmahaBlueDog (Reply #15)

Fri Sep 14, 2012, 01:46 PM

60. Nor can your religion

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to trailmonkee (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 09:19 PM

16. here is the customer service link to let them know how you feel...

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Javaman (Reply #16)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 09:39 PM

21. Thanks for that...

here's my letter to them-


Hobby Lobby sues government over healthcare mandate.

This was very disappointing to read. Why do you feel that you have to impose your own religious will on your employees' private life? If some one needs to take birth control pills, for whatever reason (including controlling hormone imbalance), it is none of your business. Do you require your employees' to pass some kind of religious test or questionnaire prior to being hired? I like some of the products that you sell, but it is not worth it when you start shoving your FAITH in my FACE. I have my own personal belief system, and I keep it to myself (and my family), if that's okay with you.
I suppose you won't be needing the hundreds of dollars that I spend in your store each year. Sad, too, because unlike you I like your employees. By the way, if you are going to force more women to have babies, are you going to give everyone a wage increase to help them care for their infants, or just fire them?

Please rethink forcing your faith on everyone else. It is offensive.

Thanks for your time. I hope you make the right decision in this matter.

Sincerely,
*****

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to They_Live (Reply #21)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 10:28 PM

27. Well done.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to They_Live (Reply #21)

Thu Sep 13, 2012, 07:01 PM

48. Perfect!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Javaman (Reply #16)

Thu Sep 13, 2012, 05:00 AM

40. Done.

Thanks!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Le Taz Hot (Reply #40)

Fri Sep 14, 2012, 09:59 AM

53. Update:

I wrote them a letter and this was their canned response:

Thank you for your email, we appreciate your comments. We respect your right to free speech, and we value you as a customer. We hope that you will respect our rights in the same way. Hobby Lobby is a company that was built on Biblical principles, and we believe that we cannot abandon our religious beliefs to comply with this mandate.

We do not wish to control the actions of our employees, but we also cannot go against our beliefs and provide coverage for abortion-inducing drugs. We will still cover preventive birth control for our employees.


If you would like more information, I can give you a website you can visit that might help answer your questions or concerns. The website is www.becketfund.org/hobbylobby

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to trailmonkee (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 09:20 PM

17. if only

there were some system where employers did not have to provide insurance, and individuals could purchase their own.
hmmmm. That might solve the problem of imposing your religious beliefs on some one else's private life.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to They_Live (Reply #17)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 10:03 PM

25. But you see, they'd block that.


It's one big reason why single payer doesn't go through here. They are not going to let the state pay for abortions and birth control.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to caseymoz (Reply #25)

Fri Sep 14, 2012, 09:25 AM

50. I'm hoping this lawsuit

will help bring about single payer. Employers need to not be making health care decisions regarding their employees.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to They_Live (Reply #50)

Fri Sep 14, 2012, 11:50 AM

58. Oops! post below should be attached here.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to caseymoz (Reply #25)

Fri Sep 14, 2012, 11:34 AM

54. I don't think it'll work.


The SCOTUS made a Ministerial exception earlier this year, but it doesn't apply. I really think, beyond Alito and Thomas, there's no way Scalia and the rest are going to give religions a blanket exception from Federal regulations. And if Scalia's other rulings are any indication, he's definitely not going for it.

However, don't worry about Single Payer. We'll get it, as the ACA has more and more problems that have to be addressed. People won't want to go without coverage once they have any of it. So, it's just a matter of time now.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to trailmonkee (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 09:27 PM

18. Any one with a legal license

Want to sue hobby lobby on behave of the employees for freedom from relgion? Isn't that implied in the first amendment? Same logic as everyone is allowed a gun in the 2nd. Conservitives should take this up.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to trailmonkee (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 09:29 PM

19. This drives me nuts. The argument by Hobby Lobby and catholic hospitals that they should

be able to direct how an employee spends his/her compensation should be easy to put to sleep...but dems and pundits refuse to point out how ridiculous it is.

An employee gets compensation/wages for work. Some of it is pay...some of it is health insurance. Some of it is retirement insurance. Hobby Lobby would never be able to tell an employee that she can't use her PAYCHECK to pay for the morning after pill...or for a stiff cocktail after work....or a red high heels....or a subscription to Atheist Monthly. The employee earned the money and the employee gets to decide how to spend it.

Similarly...the employee earned health care coverage and the employee gets to decide whether or not to see a doctor...get a physical...ignore the new red mole on her elbow...or get preventative pregnancy measures. It is NOT up to the employer to decide which available health care service the employee needs or uses. Hobby Lobby is NOT buying birth control pills and giving it to their employees. They are providing insurance...that's all. And it's compensation for work. How the employee uses it specifically is none of the employer's business.

Do all my past employers get to decide how I spend my 401K when it's available? Do I get to direct how my employees spend their money on the weekends?

I don't get this Hobby Lobby argument and I don't get why journalists and dems don't take this away as an issue.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to wiggs (Reply #19)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 10:37 PM

28. I agree.

This issue is absolute bull puckey. I find myself yelling at the pund-idiots when they expound on the "freedom of religion" of the Catholic Church or nutty employers like Hobby Lobby. When an employer imposes his religious beliefs on his employees, that is not "freedom of religion," that's being an obnoxious bully.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to ladym55 (Reply #28)

Thu Sep 13, 2012, 01:24 AM

38. company towns used to require employees to spend money at company

town stores. This reeks of the same mentality.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to trailmonkee (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 09:39 PM

20. I had no idea.

Another nutjob business to avoid.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to trailmonkee (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 09:58 PM

22. i always wondered why they were not open on sunday...

way over priced and they still make money on the final discount price. i guess i won`t be going there anymore

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to trailmonkee (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 10:02 PM

23. Not a religious freedom issue.


They want the right to interfere in dealings between their employees and a third party. That is fundamentally not religious. It has nothing to do with preserving their faith or their worship, which is the only thing the First Amendment concerns itself with.

A religious conviction that contraception is very, very wrong and that no lie is too big interfere with it is not a religious practice.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to trailmonkee (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 10:03 PM

24. Good to know. No money for them from us hobbyists with some disposable income. nt

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to trailmonkee (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 10:21 PM

26. Hobby Lobby

is discriminating against its employees by forcing them to adhere to the tenets of their religion, and by denying the religious beliefs of its employees. What would happen if HL forced all of its employees to say Hail Mary's in the morning? Or fired them for eating pork? Same thing. They are using religion to regulate the human reproduction process.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to trailmonkee (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 10:48 PM

29. My only visit to Hobby Lobby ...

I was wary from the get-go because (a) it made a big deal ABOUT BEING CLOSED ON SUNDAY (ahh, but do you pay your employees a living wage?) and (b) my fundy friends were all ecstatic THAT WE GOT A HOBBY LOBBY!!!

I was in search of guest towels to cross stitch for Christmas presents ... and I was getting desperate. (Apparently many others had this awesome idea, so supplies were depleted everywhere I went.) I thought, Hobby Lobby looks really BIG! Surely THEY will have little guest towels I can use!!!

Well, Hobby Lobby WAS big and difficult to navigate and filled with cloying housewifey kinds of knick-knacks. I finally found cross stitch supplies ... WAY in the back. I could cross stitch BIBS or BABY BLANKETS or APRONS!!!! Lucky me. No towels of any kind ... and no empty racks even indicating that they carried towels. I guess it wasn't 1950s fake domestic ... they weren't interested. So I left ... quickly, with no intention of ever returning.

Fake June Cleaver fantasy stores do nothing for me. Figures that they are fake fundy jerks.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to ladym55 (Reply #29)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 11:25 PM

33. te-heee....

love your story... thanks

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to trailmonkee (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 11:07 PM

32. Damn it, Hobby Lobby

you had finally gotten the model in that I was looking for, and now you pull this crap. Lucky I didn't special order it.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to trailmonkee (Original post)

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 11:44 PM

34. Well

now I know where NOT to buy my artsy/craftsy stuff..............

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to trailmonkee (Original post)

Thu Sep 13, 2012, 12:03 AM

35. I guess it's a good thing I don't need any plaques with Bible quotes on them, huh?

They call it "Hobby Lobby" because "Cutesy Christian Trinkets Lobby" wouldn't fit on the side of the building.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to trailmonkee (Original post)

Thu Sep 13, 2012, 12:41 AM

36. Where in the Bible does it condemn birth control?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to JRLeft (Reply #36)

Thu Sep 13, 2012, 12:42 AM

37. Or being open on Sundays?

nt

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to trailmonkee (Original post)

Thu Sep 13, 2012, 04:49 AM

39. They opened one about a year ago

in the largest city south of us. I've been meaning to go in there to look for macrame' stuff. This just saved me a 45 minute drive. Fug 'em. Thanks for posting.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to trailmonkee (Original post)

Thu Sep 13, 2012, 08:30 AM

41. Hobby Lobby? Really?

I almost never shop there, but I will be certain to never shop there from now on.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to trailmonkee (Original post)

Thu Sep 13, 2012, 11:19 AM

44. Sigh.

Another place not to shop.

Any suggestions on where to shop now?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to trailmonkee (Original post)

Thu Sep 13, 2012, 02:15 PM

46. Isn't most of their crap made in China - home of the forced abortion?

Shouldn't they not import that stuff if they are so anti choice?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to sammytko (Reply #46)

Fri Sep 14, 2012, 11:45 AM

57. That's really important

and should be part of this Biblical, birth control campaign.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to trailmonkee (Original post)

Thu Sep 13, 2012, 08:24 PM

49. Never bought anything from Hobby Lobby that I can recall........

And definitely won't, now that I've read this.
These losers need to stop fucking whining so much. If they disagree with birth control, that's their choice.....what ISN'T, is forcing their belief system on those working there.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to trailmonkee (Original post)

Fri Sep 14, 2012, 09:34 AM

51. UPDATE..here's the reply that I received from Hobby Lobby

from my letter to them (post #21)
It seems the are okay with birth control pills, but not "morning after" type drugs or "sterilization". I still think it is none of their beeswax.

Thank you for your email, we appreciate your comments. We respect your right to free speech, and we value you as a customer. We hope that you will respect our rights in the same way. Hobby Lobby is a company that was built on Biblical principles, and we believe that we cannot abandon our religious beliefs to comply with this mandate.

We do not wish to control the actions of our employees, but we also cannot go against our beliefs and provide coverage for abortion-inducing drugs. We will still cover preventive birth control for our employees.

If you would like more information, I can give you a website you can visit that might help answer your questions or concerns. The website is www.becketfund.org/hobbylobby

Vince Parker

Hobby Lobby Stores, Inc.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to They_Live (Reply #51)

Fri Sep 14, 2012, 11:44 AM

56. You should reply

That HOB LOB employees should not be allowed to eat pork or shrimp, and name a few other Biblical principles.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to trailmonkee (Original post)

Fri Sep 14, 2012, 09:45 AM

52. Hobby Lobby & Walmart are the only two local stores that sell

fabric & notions.

I never shop Walmart & finding out HL thinks they have a say in what I do with my body? Well, I won't be shopping there anymore either. And I will certainly let them know why!

on edit: I wrote a snail mail letter to Mr. Green himself. I'm sure he won't read it, but someone, somewhere will note that one woman was so pissed she took time to write. I read once that a snail mail letter has the weight of 10,000 complaints.

Here's the address if anyone else would like to chime in:


Mr. David Green
Hobby Lobby Stores, Inc.
7707 S.W. 44th Street
Oklahoma City, OK 73179

I'm really bummed about this! It's so nice to just bop over & get a few notions that I need.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to trailmonkee (Original post)

Fri Sep 14, 2012, 11:36 AM

55. Next up: chiropractic schools ask to deny vaccinations!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink

Reply to this thread