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Thu Sep 6, 2012, 10:12 PM

Protesters again take to uptown streets (of Charlotte)

Source: Charlotte Observer via Tacoma WA News-Tribune

For a third consecutive night, protesters streamed out of uptown Charlotte’s Marshall Park Thursday night and into standoffs with waiting police officers.
By Meghan Cooke, Cleve R. Wootson Jr. and Ely Portillo; macooke@charlotteobserver.com
Published: Sept. 6, 2012 at 6:42 p.m. PDT
Updated: Sept. 6, 2012 at 6:43 p.m. PDT

... About 70 protesters marched up Stonewall Street to Tryon Street at 7:30 p.m., where they attempted to turn north into the center city. Police blocked their path.

After a 10-minute impasse, officers allowed the procession to turn up Tryon.

At Trade Street, the march again came to a halt for 25 minutes. A large number of officers poured out of waiting trucks to surround the marchers, who sat down in the intersection.

“I hope this is the last one,” Charlotte-Mecklenburg Police Chief Rodney Monroe told the Observer ...

Read more: http://www.thenewstribune.com/2012/09/06/2284839/protesters-again-take-to-uptown.html

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Reply Protesters again take to uptown streets (of Charlotte) (Original post)
struggle4progress Sep 2012 OP
MADem Sep 2012 #1
JoeyT Sep 2012 #3
MADem Sep 2012 #5
JoeyT Sep 2012 #15
MADem Sep 2012 #27
limpyhobbler Sep 2012 #81
MADem Sep 2012 #84
limpyhobbler Sep 2012 #86
MADem Sep 2012 #114
warrprayer Sep 2012 #139
MADem Sep 2012 #140
Herlong Sep 2012 #147
limpyhobbler Sep 2012 #155
MADem Sep 2012 #158
randome Sep 2012 #159
MADem Sep 2012 #162
limpyhobbler Sep 2012 #160
demosincebirth Sep 2012 #102
MADem Sep 2012 #111
demosincebirth Sep 2012 #115
patrice Sep 2012 #123
demosincebirth Sep 2012 #125
patrice Sep 2012 #132
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onehandle Sep 2012 #2
unc70 Sep 2012 #4
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banned from Kos Sep 2012 #7
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Cleita Sep 2012 #13
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patrice Sep 2012 #109
freshwest Sep 2012 #117
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struggle4progress Sep 2012 #133
MADem Sep 2012 #38
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Politicub Sep 2012 #26
MADem Sep 2012 #30
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davidthegnome Sep 2012 #64
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patrice Sep 2012 #110
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davidthegnome Sep 2012 #99
patrice Sep 2012 #104
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rachel1 Sep 2012 #113
U4ikLefty Sep 2012 #134
struggle4progress Sep 2012 #135
Herlong Sep 2012 #143
davidthegnome Sep 2012 #136
warrprayer Sep 2012 #138
struggle4progress Sep 2012 #141
randome Sep 2012 #153
MADem Sep 2012 #163
struggle4progress Sep 2012 #142
Herlong Sep 2012 #148
struggle4progress Sep 2012 #156
Herlong Sep 2012 #150
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struggle4progress Sep 2012 #157
MADem Sep 2012 #164
Herlong Oct 2012 #165

Response to struggle4progress (Original post)

Thu Sep 6, 2012, 10:24 PM

1. Fucking losers. Marginalized clowns..

Their message: "They all suck so I don't wanna play."

Yeah, that's meaningful. Not.

They can put their little black bandannas and stupid halloween masks where the sun don't shine. They're IRRELEVANT.

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Response to MADem (Reply #1)

Thu Sep 6, 2012, 10:27 PM

3. Yeah, what an awful message.

"He named corporations that he said are “foreclosing on our homes, destroying our environment.”

A terrible thing that should be marginalized. At least according to right wingers.

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Response to JoeyT (Reply #3)

Thu Sep 6, 2012, 10:35 PM

5. Check the TOS and then have a look at your calendar.

Then turn on your TV and tell me who is speaking tonight.

This is DU, not Fuck You.

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Response to MADem (Reply #5)

Thu Sep 6, 2012, 11:20 PM

15. Objecting to banks forclosing on homes

and corporations destroying the environment hurts Democrats? Weird, I thought that was kind of our thing.

Which Democrats are you listening to?

Edited to add: I do note you didn't actually address the point: Those are good things to be passionate about. You might not agree with their tactics, of course. I'm not a huge fan either. But the general point is well meaning.

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Response to JoeyT (Reply #15)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 12:02 AM

27. They are shitting in the punch. "Waaah, we won't vote for anyone! THAT's how we'll FIX 'em!"

That's their message--that they are the COMPLAINERS and Debbie Downers who have NO ROLE in the solutions.

I did address the point--that these people are fucking idiot-losers whose failure to participate in the process of electing people to Congress and the Presidency, in order to CHANGE BAD LAW, makes them whinging, whining, crybaby, attention-sex-worker scolds who can take their stupid little masks and stupid little black bloc bandannas and stick 'em where the sun don't shine--they are useless tools whose "Look at MEEEEEE" street theater changes nothing except perhaps the bank balance of a few cops' kids' college funds. That overtime pay helps the public servants in blue, no question.

It's not about tactics. It's about stupidity and pointlessness. They've chosen to prance around self-importantly telling us that they won't do a damn thing to get involved in the political process--well, whoop-de-doo; who gives a shit about them, then. The people supporting the second term of Obama are the ones making a difference, not those seventy unwashed losers making a pointless spectacle in the streets.

What I hate is that these dumbass tools are associated with the left, when they are, in actual fact and philosophy, more like the Tea Party than the Tea Party.

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Response to MADem (Reply #27)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 04:07 AM

81. Somebody had to protest outside the DNC. It's the all American way. God bless you.

Last edited Fri Sep 7, 2012, 04:39 AM - Edit history (1)

The way you refer to them as unwashed losers reminds me of the way people refered to the protesters at the 1968 DNC. Would you have called the 1968 protesters a bunch of unwashed hippies who need to cut their hair and fall in for Hubert Humphrey volunteer duty?

Or the way Fox "news" refered to the Occupy people... same exact talking point..."unwashed". By the way, how do you know if they are unwashed, and what in God's good name does that have to do with whatever point they are trying to make?

You might be jumping to conclusions to assume they are all non-voters, or even that some won't vote for Obama. Maybe the whole black bloc ninja suit is just something they just do once in a while for special occasions, and then they blend back into "normal" society.

You say they have no role in solutions, but I think there is a legitmate role for street protest to draw attention to issues excluded from the Democratic Party.

Thank you and God bless you. And God bless America.

Al Gore 2016
Ban Fracking Now

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Response to limpyhobbler (Reply #81)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 04:52 AM

84. Oh please. In 68 we were protesting for political action to end a war.

You plainly aren't looking at 68 with ANY clarity at all. I am though--I lived through those times and put my ass out there at more than a few protests.

How in hell do you think a prominent member of VVAW managed to find his way into the Senate? And eventually to run for President....and speak at this year's convention? Because the protesters of 68 DIDN'T VOTE? I don't think so.

This nosepicking anhedonia crew is nothing like the antiwar protesters in the sixties/early seventies, who were intelligent, organized and focused on goals. These idiots can't muster anything even approaching a group, never mind a crowd and are not political at all--they're like gum stuck to your shoe. They are the opposite of political. They're a club of lame ass mask wearing losers with no organization, no focus, no goals, and nothing but complaints without solutions.

"Fuck it all" is neither a tactic nor a strategy. It does seem to be the calling card of tent-dwelling children who grew up accustomed to getting a prize for simply "attending," though.

You might try actually reading what those losers were saying and doing at their little protest before you start lecturing me. See, I read the material, I am not making that shit up. I am not "jumping to conclusions" -- I am summarizing their (lack of) goals, as they themselves eagerly reported.

Don't vote--that was their "message."

Piss Off, Losers--I will vote and encourage others to do so as well.--that's MY message.

And if you can't go along with MY message, you're in the wrong place.

The name of the game here to elect Democrats to office, not suppress the vote like those clueless nitwits.

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Response to MADem (Reply #84)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 05:25 AM

86. I see some parallels between modern protests and historic protests.

Your manner of calling them unwashed was very similar to things that were said in all the historic protest movements.

I looked at the article posted in the OP. I don't see anything in there about them telling people not to vote. I'm reading on a cell phone and sometimes pieces of articles seem to get lost. Or where are you getting that from? I searched the whole article for the word "vote" but my web browser reported no matches. So what in God's good name are you talking about?


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Response to limpyhobbler (Reply #86)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 03:41 PM

114. You cannot discern my "manner" unless you are sitting in the room with me.

They aren't making their point. That's the bottom line.

If they aren't making their point, they're wasting their time--unless, of course, their GOAL is to waste time and involve themselves in a little closed "anhedonia clubhouse."

It's stupid, it's affected, it's pointless. They aren't doing anything but changing the overtime pay of a few cops--so I suppose you might call them GOP "job creators."

Your cell phone is failing you. From the photos at the link (get a load of the signage in the 2nd photo):


Occupy DNC at Trade and Tryon streets say they won't vote for either party. -Ely Portillo
Order News Tribune reprints | Order Associated Press reprints | close


People holding signs supporting the Charlotte-Mecklenburg Police as they watch the Occupy protest at The Square Thursday night September 6, 2012 during the Democratic National Convention final night. DIEDRA LAIRD - dlaird@charlotteobserver. (DIEDRA LAIRD/dlaird@charlotteobserver.com)
Order News Tribune reprints | Order Associated Press reprints | close

Read more here: http://www.thenewstribune.com/2012/09/06/2284839/protesters-again-take-to-uptown.html#storylink=cpy

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Response to MADem (Reply #114)

Sat Sep 8, 2012, 01:06 PM

139. take another look

ummm... maybe it's just me, but it doesn't look like those folks are holding signs supporting the police.

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Response to warrprayer (Reply #139)

Sat Sep 8, 2012, 02:18 PM

140. The people BEHIND the protesters are, to the left. nt

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Response to MADem (Reply #114)

Sat Sep 8, 2012, 03:38 PM

147. Too many people won't vote for either party

 

That's how we got here.

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Response to MADem (Reply #114)

Sat Sep 8, 2012, 05:33 PM

155. Accusations of poor hygene have historically been used to discredit movements.

Judging the manner in which something was said...can't that mean judging the way it is being used? Somebody said around here they could discern the "demeanor" of a police officer based on a quote from the newspaper.

Anyhoo, my cell phone is limiting me. I see those pictures and captions when you paste them, but not in the article. I could take your word for it that some of those demonstrators are against voting. You're right that not voting is stupid. I've been to occupy assemblies and events in 3 different cities and never once did anybody suggest I should not vote or even express anything related to not voting.

That said, I could easily see myself standing there with a "stop fracking" sign or "Stop TPP" or "Stop Keystone" or something like that, and some idiot could walk up next to me with a "stop voting" sign. It doesn't mean everybody there agrees with it.

Nextly, even if they do stupidly advocate not voting, they have a right to protest. So as long as they are non-violent, I think the criticism about them costing money for police overtime is spurious. It's fair for you to raise the issue (unlike the body odor issue). But I think we need to expect that some people are going to protest and it's nothing unusual, considering that our government has largely been bought by big money special interests.

Nobody in those photos has their face covered. They look like fairly clean-cut, good smelling, patriotic Americans. Why use the body odor of a few demonstrators to discredit the views of all demonstrators?

I believe you are refering to the sign in the photo which reads "There is no ballot we can cast to set us free?" What's wrong with that? I just interpret that to mean that if we want major systemic changes, it will take more than voting. Don't delude ourselves into thinking that voting means more than it actually does. Voting is important, but all the really big positive changes in American history have started with movements which never achieved formal political power, if they participated in politics at all.

So the need for fundamental systemic changes seems to be one of their points. I noted some good points that they made, based on these quotes:
“We’re here to send a message to Obama and Romney that enough is enough,” said Occupy Charlotte organizer Michael Zytkow. He named corporations that he said are “foreclosing on our homes, destroying our environment.”
Good points. Why hasn't the government done more on these issues? Why hasn't the political party taken more of a lead on these issues?

Another good point:
Occupy Charlotte member Adam Nuber yelled through a megaphone: “The corporations have bought out your government!” and gestured at the Bank of America tower overlooking the Square.
Somebody has to say this outside the convention, because you can't say it inside.

So it's really unfair I think to lump all the demonstrators together, or to paint a picture of the whole thing as anti-voting, or to play the body odor card, or to say that they don't have any good points.

I don't get the "anhedonia" reference. Looked it up in the dictionary but still don't get it.

an·he·do·nia Pronunciation: \ ˌ an-hē- ˈ dō- nē-ə\ Function: noun a psychological condition: a psychological condition characterized by inability to experience pleasure in acts which normally produce it—

They should be glued to their TV's crying tears of ecstacy while the "leaders" speak? That's not for everybody. Non-violent protest on these issues is a worthwhile activity, in addition to voting.

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Response to limpyhobbler (Reply #155)

Sat Sep 8, 2012, 10:22 PM

158. I was at many of those protests back in the day. We went home and showered.

We were scuffy AND clean, most of us.

Urban camping wasn't needed because we had organization, leadership and focus--not a thousand different issues with no cogent message. We didn't have to struggle to get a few dozen people to show up; we showed up by the thousands, with a unified message that was HEARD, and then we went home. And then we showed up by the thousands again. And we did this without twitter, cellphones, computers or any of that shit. Bulletin boards (the real ones--not the virtual ones) in laundromats and coffee shops, phone trees, tell-a-friend. If you have focus on your cause you can get critical mass.

This effort was lame, a few dilettantes. BYOG--bring your own gripe. They couldn't even get a hundred people to turn out for an event of this significance--that should tell you how poorly organized they are, and how un-motivating they are making their message meaningful to anyone but themselvves.

I am lumping all the protesters together because they lumped themselves together. Two of them were the press-talkers and permit getters, according to most of the media I have seen/read.


As for the corporate protesters, why are they at the DNC convention to "send a message to Obama and ROMNEY?" Mitt sure as hell wasn't in Charlotte. Why don't they get their asses down to Tampa, or up to one of his rallies? I'll tell you why--because the GOP doesn't put up with that shit, and they don't have courage to go with their weak convictions. It's all fun and games with the Democratic Party, AKA tolerant ones, but they're not going to put their well fed asses on the line and get clubbed down in Tampa or at one of Mitt's less friendly venues. Too Much WORK.

I don't see any point in telling people that "No ballot will set you free" and to not vote for anyone. And that was the focus during their little march. If you see a point to that, and I am not saying that you do, it's a good idea to just stow that thought during election season, because I don't think it will be well received here.


I don't know how many times I have to say that they have every right to behave like stupid asses--after all, they had a permit. I am getting a bit sick of this false characterization that I--or anyone here--is saying that they don't.

That said, I have every right to mock their stupid performance.

The "anhedonia" has to do with their inability to find pleasure or anything good in ANYTHING. Everything sucks. Corporations will win--so give up. Don't vote. You're all gonna die. Fuck that kind of whining--I know people who are within a decade of their hundredth birthday who don't gripe like that.

The whole exercise was just dumb. It was a very small fail, as the kids say, because they didn't even have enough people there to make it a major fail.

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Response to MADem (Reply #158)

Sat Sep 8, 2012, 10:55 PM

159. I learned a new word today. Thanks.

And it is very appropriate for some who seem to enjoy casting themselves as eternal victims.

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Response to randome (Reply #159)

Sun Sep 9, 2012, 02:51 AM

162. I'm not close to dead yet, but every year I spend on earth, I find more reasons to like the place.

Life is worth living and not EVERYTHING sucks! HOPE and FORWARD aren't just slogans!

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Response to MADem (Reply #158)


Response to MADem (Reply #84)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 02:38 PM

102. That protest didn't work...did it? Nixon got elected and the war lastd 7 more years.

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Response to demosincebirth (Reply #102)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 03:27 PM

111. It certainly didn't help elect a Dem.

It was one of MANY that eventually ended the war, but not straight away. Three years later John Kerry was testifying before Congress. Later, he started working there as the JR Senator from MA.

And the difference between 68 and these few dozen gripers at the DNC is that the 68 crew had focus. They didn't sit around camping and taking turns to opine about this issue and that. They organized, they chose leaders, they spoke with one voice and they got off their asses and targeted their ire. The protests in 68 did screw the Dems decisively, certainly, but there were other issues at play with the D Team, and the party was doing what it always does--being Democrats who don't always do the lockstep thing.

I don't see any focus or effort with Occupy--it's a big urban camping party and a lot of hot rhetoric and no action. In 68, everyone knew that "those hippies" were out there "protesting the war." With the tent crowd, you have to ask--it's a different gripe every day. They have no leadership, no direction, no discipline, no focus.

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Response to MADem (Reply #111)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 03:47 PM

115. I agree...and in '72 the same goup took over the dem party and and nominated McGovern for pres,

a good liberal, but didn't have a snow balls chance in hell of getting elected. And guess what? We got Nixon in a republican landslide...the rest is history

What they should have done in '68 is get behind Humphrey and back him to the hilt and Nixon would not been elected and the war, I'm sure, would have been over much sooner and probably have saved 15-20 thousand American lives.

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Response to demosincebirth (Reply #115)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 07:08 PM

123. Because Nixon double-crossed the AFLCIO & turned the more well off unions against

the poorer unions.

He split labor along pro-War and anti-War lines and that resulted in McGovern's defeat.

http://books.google.com/books/about/Stayin_Alive.html?id=xz-EINoBGNcC

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Response to patrice (Reply #123)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 09:48 PM

125. Defeat? He/we were clobbered!

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Response to demosincebirth (Reply #125)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 11:52 PM

132. Yeah, I remember going to corporate Christmas parties that year with my spouse.

I was the youngest person there and in my hippie phase, so when my husband's boss "playfully" goaded me into a political exchange, several of the young men at our table gleefully guffawed at my weak defense of McGovern because he was a peace candidate. I had been surprised by the fact that he hadn't even won his own state and didn't really know what to say.

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Response to demosincebirth (Reply #115)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 11:13 PM

131. Can't argue with a thing you have said.

If HHH had just two more weeks of campaigning and maybe a little more scratch to buy ads, he could have turned it. He was a very decent man.

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Response to demosincebirth (Reply #102)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 07:13 PM

124. It didn't work because Nixon negotiated with the enemy to undercut Johnson's

efforts to end the war. Those 7 more years cost several 10s of thousands of American lives and probably about 100 thousand more Vietnamese.

Thom Hartmann plays a recording of Johnson and EVERT DIRKSON talking on the phone about what Nixon was doing and Dirkson calls it treason.

Those years are also mentioned in this book: http://books.google.com/books/about/Stayin_Alive.html?id=xz-EINoBGNcC

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Response to struggle4progress (Original post)

Thu Sep 6, 2012, 10:25 PM

2. Cough. nt

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Response to struggle4progress (Original post)

Thu Sep 6, 2012, 10:28 PM

4. Your point? 70 protestors, good relations w police, ...

This is the kind of non-story trying to stir things up. Tens of thousands already celebrating in the streets.

Ignore it.

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Response to unc70 (Reply #4)

Thu Sep 6, 2012, 10:37 PM

6. I've no doubt the people in the streets are ignoring them.

They just have a need to shit in the punch, even when the punchbowl belongs to the team who are trying to do anything FOR We, the People.

I thought they had a good point when they started out--now I think they're even stupider than the Tea Party....and that's pretty damn stupid.

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Response to MADem (Reply #6)

Thu Sep 6, 2012, 10:39 PM

7. I agree. These people can't help Democrats win with this crap.

 

Why don't they protest Romney?

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Response to banned from Kos (Reply #7)

Thu Sep 6, 2012, 10:41 PM

8. Dems are TOLERANT....even of fools.

The RMoney cops wouldn't smile at 'em, they'd give 'em a beat down.

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Response to MADem (Reply #8)

Thu Sep 6, 2012, 11:16 PM

13. Apparently these are supporters of Bradley Manning, not Occupy. n/t

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Response to Cleita (Reply #13)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 12:03 AM

28. They self-identified as OCCUPY, per "Occupy Charlotte organizer Michael Zytkow"

They even had the idiot bandannas and masks.

“We’re here to send a message to Obama and Romney that enough is enough,” said Occupy Charlotte organizer Michael Zytkow. He named corporations that he said are “foreclosing on our homes, destroying our environment.”

Many protesters wore black bandanas over their faces, and some wore Guy Fawkes masks, a symbol of rebellion.


Read more here: http://www.thenewstribune.com/2012/09/06/2284839/protesters-again-take-to-uptown.html#storylink=cpy

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Response to MADem (Reply #28)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 12:06 AM

29. That means nothing.

Maybe there are some fringe occupiers there but I don't think that particular protest is backed by Occupy.

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Response to Cleita (Reply #29)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 12:23 AM

33. Come on--the only person quoted was "Occupy." The pictures are captioned "Occupy."

Occupy protest at The Square Thursday night September 6, 2012 during the Democratic National Convention final night. DIEDRA LAIRD - dlaird@charlotteobserver. (DIEDRA LAIRD/dlaird@charlotteobserver.com)
Order News Tribune reprints | Order Associated Press reprints | close

Read more here: http://www.thenewstribune.com/2012/09/06/2284839/protesters-again-take-to-uptown.html#storylink=cpy

They are wearing those idiot Warner Brothers Anonymous-Occupy Guy Fawkes masks that are so popular at these ever-shrinking dustups.

They are the vestiges of Occupy, which is shrinking and failing for want of leadership and direction. Aimless troublemakers with a few talking points of complaint, and ZERO solutions. A great idea squandered by failure to follow through.

More cops than protesters. Pointless little drama.

Occupy the DNC is what they called it--and all they could get was a few dozen people.
http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/09/04/near-the-convention-site-occupy-takes-root/


A protester holds a flag reading “Occupy The DNC” at the encampment in Marshall Park in Charlotte, N.C.


CHARLOTTE, N.C. — Eric Verlo waved an “Occupy the DNC” flag as he stood among the dozens of tents pitched around Marshall Park in uptown Charlotte on Monday in advance of the Democratic National Convention. The flag was not so much a rallying point as a declaration of the Occupy movement’s defiant presence here....

The small Occupy gathering here follows the smaller-than-expected showing in marches at the Republican National Convention last week in Tampa, Fla., and in Charlotte on Sunday.

“I’m a little disappointed,” said Darrell Prince, 36, of Brooklyn, an original member of Occupy Wall Street who was also in Tampa last week. “I feel like there’s certainly enough people who are upset right now. Congress has a 9 percent approval rate.”



People who complain will only be heard for so long, particularly when they continue to be uninterested in offering any solutions save fist waving and mask wearing.

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Response to MADem (Reply #33)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 12:27 AM

36. It's the Julian Assange/Bradley Manning supporters that like those Guy Fawke masks.

I'm not saying they don't populate the Occupy camps too, but this isn't really Occupy. But even so. So what. If anti-war protesters hadn't shown up at the 1968 Democratic convention, there still would be a draft today. We'd probably still be in Viet Nam. Oh, they weren't welcome there either, those dirty hippies, and our clean cut Democrats were so upset that they were upstaging them.

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Response to Cleita (Reply #36)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 12:43 AM

43. Well, they were all wrapped up in the few dozen people with the Occupy permit to march.

No one noticed them, in any event. Their efforts failed because they had no critical mass. Their numbers keep shrinking because they aren't DOING anything, except complaining. Do they have a right to do that? Sure. Anyone has a right to look like a pointless scold in this country--it's one of the great things about the place. But are they doing any good? No. They're patting themselves on the back, but the people making a difference are INSIDE the Convention Center.

On the one hand, you are complaining about media accuracy, and then when the media covers even this pathetic little Occupy-permitted march and encampment (to include the few dozens tents and the Occupy the DNC sign) you say it's not Occupy.

It is Occupy. And it was a flop. They are tone deaf, are always in the wrong place at the wrong time, the only attention they can get is either negative or pathetic, and they blew their chance.

They had a moment when they first fired up, they attracted a lot of good initial attention, they got millions of dollars donated to their cause... and they wasted it. They have nothing to show for all their drama except a few memories of pungent campsites in urban settings. If they had a Ghandi, they'd be in a different situation, but their leaderless structure and their failure to engage in the political process in a meaningful way has doomed them to failure. That organic shit never lasts for long. And if you don't vote, you don't count.

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Response to MADem (Reply #43)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 12:47 AM

45. So what!

They have a right to protest. They are only a failure in your eyes. What do you want that they get maced, kicked and arrested? Is that success to you? And really are the people inside the Convention center making a difference? I didn't hear one word in there about the homeless and the mentally and physically disabled, people that the Occupy movement has tried to help because no one else will.

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Response to Cleita (Reply #45)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 01:59 AM

63. You keep saying that like anyone is suggesting they DON'T have the right to make asses of themselves

and NO ONE in this thread is saying that. NO ONE. Yet you keep repeating it. That kind of propagandizing is just not working because you're not even subtle and can't point to a single person doing anything but ridiculing these morons. Which they have every right to do.

One more time--they have every right to make unmitigated asses of themselves. And we have every right to mock their stupid asses.

You're angry that a bunch of idiots who burned the presidential oath of office, who are urging people to NOT vote (depressing turnout), who are claiming--quite falsely--that both parties are the same (bashing/trashing)--are getting their asses deservedly handed to them on a site called DEMOCRATIC Underground.

You really need to re-read the TOS. You're in the wrong place if you think that kind of shit is "cool" -- particularly during election season.

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Response to MADem (Reply #63)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 02:10 AM

67. I think you are in the wrong place. No body said what they are doing is cool other than asserting

their right to do it. Besides that, you are assuming the protesters are all Democrats. If in fact they are Occupy as you believe, they are not all Democrats any more than Democratic Underground is all Democrats. DU has its share of Greenies, Libertarians, Independents and some Republicans as long as they don't disrupt. Occupy, because it's about the 99% encompasses an even wider spectrum of political thinking. Walking in lockstep behind authority has never been how the Democratic Party operated or Democratic Underground. In the early days of DU we joked about our party being about herding cats because the Bushies were so obedient to authority.

However, if you find out what political persuasion the person was who did the offensive burning, and if they were in fact card carrying Democrats, then you have something to bitch about, not before.

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Response to Cleita (Reply #67)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 02:32 AM

71. You're the one vigorously defending them. And you're not just defending their "right" to protest,

either. What's up with that?

Further, I am not "assuming the protesters are all Democrats." I simply don't want their stupid stink on our team. This isn't about whether the people at the protest were Democrats. They quite obviously weren't--they're too fucking stupid to be Democrats, plainly.


They are Occupy--that's been proven--even though you tried to deny that, too.


The TOS here says very clearly "Vote for Democrats." It doesn't say "Cheerlead assholes who don't like Democrats and who encourage people to not vote."

I have plenty to "b-word" about--and the conduct of these morons and your tortured justification of their shitty, vote suppressing protest are just two items on my "b wording" agenda.

I have been here at DU since the very early days. I lost my first account when I left my job, but I have been here since the beginning and remember the shock of the Bush theft of Gore's presidency. The "rules" that evolved during those days and DU2 are GONE. We have a TOS now and it's pretty simple but it's pretty plain, too--if you're bashing, trashing, undermining, etc., you're assumed to be working for the other team.

That's not my verbiage, either--that's just what the TOS says.

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Response to MADem (Reply #71)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 02:41 AM

73. I'm defending their First Amendment right to protest what they think is

an uncaring administration. I don't see them on DU defying the TOS. It was another DUer that dragged their stuff onto this board. Regardless, DU's TOS has nothing to do with Constitutional rights. You are really off base. btw the oath burners aren't part of either political party. They had signs saying Fuck the RNC and Fuck the DNC. They don't like anybody and most of the protesters had come up from Tampa after protesting the Republicans. I didn't see any cries of outrage here then. They don't like either party. So frankly you don't have a dog in this fight.

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Response to Cleita (Reply #73)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 03:08 AM

74. Nobody is saying they can't protest. You're defending something no one is arguing about.

More to the point, though, you're defending their tactics and strategies of voter suppression. That's what is troubling to me.

I'm not worried about them--I'm more concerned about you.

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Response to MADem (Reply #74)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 03:29 AM

78. What are protesters doing to suppress the vote?

That's a little out there. It's elected officials and courts that are doing voter suppression. They are putting up the ID rules, not the protesters, who have no political clout except to protest and you would deny them that?

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Response to Cleita (Reply #78)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 03:51 PM

116. If you aren't going to bother to read the material, look at the pictures of the protesters

with their OCCUPY tee shirts and "anti-voting" sign, and discern the caption that says the Occupy protesters have said that they will not vote for either party, then I cannot help you.

What's "out there" is that you keep denying what is right in front of you at the link.

Again, with the completely untrue assertion: "....and you would deny them that?" Where were you educated? Why is it that you can't understand a straightforward comment? How many times do I--and others--have to deny this bullshit claim you continue to falsely insist is ANYONE's attitude, here?

They have every right to their stupid protest. That has been said OVER AND OVER and you keep ignoring it.

What is NOT cool is touting their anti-Democratic Party, anti-voting, anti-Obama POV at DU--which is where you dance close to the line.

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Response to Cleita (Reply #45)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 03:14 PM

109. From where I stand, it looks as though Democrats will have more opportunities to offer a hand

to homeless and physically disabled people through Labor than anarchists will, though it appears that poor people's organizers tend to hang out more with anarchists and Libertarians than they do Democrats, neither group of which, with a few exceptions, cultivates "members" who know very damned much about anything, in my experience.

Poor advocates who do hang out with Democrats tend to be social/economic-justice ecumenical types with strong representation amongst liberal Catholics and you don't have to look very far to see how both of those groups are becoming targets amongst "the Left", so, being churchy types, they'll recede to the Right again, with its "Libertarian" and "anarchist" neighbors, who'll co-opt that front for cheap labor, and we'll lose that human rights ground again.

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Response to Cleita (Reply #45)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 03:55 PM

117. You must not have listened to the part of the convention where both the mentally and physically

Last edited Tue Oct 30, 2012, 04:22 AM - Edit history (1)

Disabled and what is helping millions were the focus, with rousing cheers to protect their current and future housing and medical care. Bill Clinton and others were clear about what would happen to the mentally disabled under a Romney and Ryan plan. Which is the Libertarian plan:



I read a thread where someone saying Occupy runs soup kitchens and are the only ones who care about the homeless, disabled, etc. That is the Libertarian Party platform, that they can survive on charity, and the government must go away. Not only that, but Social Security must go away, which is what is keeping millions of people right now from being hungry and homeless.

Instead, the people inside the convention center know and work with these folks daily. These are the people doing the work, and not tearing down what works. The numbers I quote with links below show the many millions they serve and how they are helped by Democratic policies, which have been hampered by Republicans for decades. I want to point out for those who are not familiar with these programs, that some overlap and some do not.

We are talking about well over a hundred million people getting the essentials of life right now. Not everyone needs these. How many millions of people is Occupy serving at the soup kitchen?

I wanted to see the similarities and contrasts with the Occupy movement, Libertarian and Democratic Parties. Here is some info:

In 2012, over 56 million Americans will receive $778 billion in Social Security benefits.

http://www.ssa.gov/pressoffice/basicfact.htm

Medicaid is the nation’s largest health program in terms of number of recipients, serving 56 million to Medicare’s 48 million.

http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/health/diseasesconditionsandhealthtopics/medicaid/index.html

More than a third of Americans lived in households receiving government assistance in 2010.

http://money.cnn.com/2012/02/07/news/economy/government_assistance/index.htm

More than 46.6 Million Americans Participated in SNAP in June 2012

http://frac.org/reports-and-resources/snapfood-stamp-monthly-participation-data/

The Libertarian Party Platform on Welfare:

http://www.lp.org/issues/poverty-and-welfare

The Libertarian Party Platform on Health care:


http://www.ontheissues.org/celeb/Libertarian_Party_Health_Care.htm

More Libertarian, Ron Paul, Tea Bagger ideas that Democrats do not believe in:

Libertarians believe that taxes should be abolished along with all the programs and departments that taxes fund. Libertarians don’t believe in Medicare. Libertarians don’t believe in Social Security. Libertarians don’t believe that there should be fire departments, police departments, public transportation, grants for education, unemployment, disability, food stamps, and every other type of government system and assistance that you can think of.

Libertarians wish to eliminate taxes in order to eliminate all of the above programs and more. Libertarians believe that without these taxes, individuals will have more money in their pockets and will be able to afford all of these things. If someone is unable to provide themselves or their family with school, health care, or food, people need to rely on family members, church, or a private charity.

Libertarians believe that government’s role in the market should be to protect property owner’s rights. There should be no FDA, equal employment opportunities, unions, minimum wage, payroll taxes, safe food handling requirements, consumer protections, regulations that protect against financial conflicts of interest and fraud, and business licenses.

Libertarians believe that business owners should have the right to deny entry to minorities and/or women and/or people with disabilities, if that is how business owners wish to run their businesses.


http://deni-edwards.hubpages.com/hub/Defining-a-Libertarian-Ron-Pauls-Political-Platform

Which is essentially what the Occupy social program being touted here is, so they can make a soup kitchen for those they find on the streets, then go home when they feel like it, because at the end of the day. they do have homes and food, and can stop camping out. That there are those who are not getting services, is not the fault of the Democrats, but Republicans.

It is they who cut the funding, because like Libertarians, they do not believe in taxing and paying for those who fall through the cracks, just let them line up for the soup kitchen. The people who get the experience of feeding someone who is homeless, go home afterward.

Those who are determined to change the basis of society, which Occupy says it wants to do, are not in waiting for the future, but involved right now as the needs of the people cannot wait. People die when the government shuts down these services, while others argue.

Social Security and Medicaid keeps millions of people Occupiers will never meet, and have no idea exist, off the streets. Yet they disapprove of those who are doing the work to keep them alive and well, because it's a 'statist' thing. Because it's not ideologically pure enough. Compromises are made, too, which those who know people in the system know keep people alive now. People in need of a place to live, medical care and food to eat don't deserve to have to wait for people to visit and serve them food, they need it everyday, they need a healthy living place and the security of knowing that it's going to keep coming. They need the government to do it, not individuals.

But those of us who are Democrats know that taking care of millions of people is not something should be dependent on private charitable acts. That a social infrastructure needs to be in place for people that the vast majority of people do not know, have never met and whose needs are not temporary and cannot be taken care of during a few days visiting them and some that most people do not want to spend any time with, period.

The solutions were inside the convention, and just by a show of the numbers I posted here prove that Democrats are and do and will continue to help many more people than Occupy ever will. Occupy refuses to accept the many thousands of public workers, unions, the Democratic Party and the concept working inside the evil government and voting.

So do Libertarians, as they have a plan to end all government so there will be no votes needed. All back to the good old boys and corporations to say how our lives will be led. The Libertarian conquest of Occupy is complete and their vision is just fine for those who can afford to stand tall and mock the people doing the work.

Ironic how Occupy telling people to not vote for Obama and Democrats reflects exactly and facilitates the goals of Romney and Ryan, the Libertarian party and the GOP/Koch brothers plans for the poor, elderly, disabled and homeless.

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Response to freshwest (Reply #117)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 06:13 PM

120. Though some of the poor and disadvantaged do want to bash heads with cops, I'd bet MOST do not.

I know that from talking to homeless, and the poor and street-people around our Occupy, whenever there was a proposal afoot to do something that could bring the police down on us.

These are people who are quite familiar with the police, some are of the type who will cut their own nose off to spite the police's face, but by far most of them don't want to have anything to do with authoritarian legal powers. They're already quite familiar with what it can do to their lives and they don't want any more of that, if they can avoid it.

They were also quite a-political and almost completely un-informed about any of the social and economic issues and ideologies that focus so many of our lives. They were interested in one thing and one thing only: survival and, for many of them, I'm not at all certain at what price.

To the extent that they are involved in a movement of any kind, they are vulnerable to anyone who knows more about anything and who has even modest resources that they are willing to put at their disposal.

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Response to freshwest (Reply #117)

Sat Sep 8, 2012, 12:11 AM

133. Thanks for this. The Occupy folk seem to me to have collapsed into nebulous mush some time ago

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Response to Cleita (Reply #29)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 12:31 AM

38. I'm sorry, but you're whistling in the dark, here. There was an "Occupy the DNC" protest planned

for Charlotte--and I've provided links and pics in this thread to prove that. The Occupy people even got permits and the police were very helpful. The police allowed them to camp and gave them porta potties. Still, only a few Professional Complainers showed up. Most people were all down with the HOPE train, not the Complain train.

The protest was a failure. Occupy is shitting the bed, because they don't have any solutions, just gripes. It's their own damn fault. They started out as THOUSANDS with a valid beef, and now they're just dozens. Why? Because all they do is whine. They have no leadership, they have no focus, they have no direction, they have no abiding motivation, and they allow assholes like those black bloc jerks and other assorted Pissers in the Punch to co-opt their spotlight and make them look like a bunch of moronic weasels.

I had high hopes for them at the outset. Now I see them as like the Tea Party, slightly less meanspirited, but every bit as dumb as a box of Tea Party rocks. They had such an opportunity to make a real difference, but they blew it totally.

People look to leaders with solutions, not malodorous whiners in masks.

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Response to MADem (Reply #38)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 01:08 AM

49. So it was Occupy. I was given misleading information.

It's not surprising to me considering the source, but it still doesn't make it wrong for them to exercise their democratic right to protest. Just because it's our side that is being protested doesn't make it wrong or illegal. I applaud them. It may be the last hope they have. If you want to vent that vitriol do it to the Tea Party, not a bunch of disenfranchised poor people who are trying to get their President's attention.

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Response to Cleita (Reply #49)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 01:17 AM

53. No one is saying that they don't have a "democratic right to protest." That's a fake assertion.

They have every right to make fools of themselves if they'd like.

This is a free society, though, and we're ALSO free to comment on the quality of the protest, too.

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Response to MADem (Reply #53)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 01:19 AM

55. So this is DU the progressive message board where other DUers can

come and call their fellow progressive fools. I stand corrected.

I can see why so many real liberal Democrats have left here.

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Response to Cleita (Reply #55)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 01:51 AM

61. Anyone who thinks burning the Presidential oath of office is anything but a dumb-ass, stupid protest

is an absolute fool. Anyone who advocates not voting or claiming that both candidates are the same is a screaming nitwit. Particularly when they're engaging in these moronic activities outside the Democratic Convention.


The idea here at DU is to support Democrats for political office--not protest that elections suck, no one should vote, or burn oaths as a nitwitty protest--like these Occupy DNC idiots are doing.

Or maybe you're unclear on the concept?

Here's a refresher link for you: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=termsofservice

The money quote is under the whole "Vote for Democrats" paragraph: Everyone here on DU needs to work together to elect more Democrats and fewer Republicans to all levels of American government. If you are bashing, trashing, undermining, or depressing turnout for our candidates during election season, we'll assume you are rooting for the other side.


This is DEMOCRATIC Underground, you know. Not Dumbass Idiots who burn the Presidential Oath of Office and Tell Everyone to Not Vote Underground.

If you think that sort of forum would get a lot of participants, you're free to go find some servers, hire a few admins, and fire it up. You wouldn't have to worry about me applying for membership, certainly.

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Response to MADem (Reply #61)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 01:57 AM

62. You don't approve. Fine. You don't have a right to call them names.

Your children or grandchildren might be doing just those things some day and you won't be able to do anything about it. Maybe you might even want to ask them what they are trying to prove, but would you call them fools, morons, etc.?

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Response to Cleita (Reply #62)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 02:06 AM

65. Yes, I DO have every right to call them names. They are stupid people doing a very stupid thing.

I have every RIGHT to point it out. Don't you dare tell me that I must be silent in the face of abject lunacy on the part of these morons.

And what the fuck do children or grandchildren have to do with anything? That's as silly a discussion point as your claim that people are saying these buffoons have no right to protest (when no one has said that).

You need to learn to argue cogently if you want to engage people on the internet. I KNOW that my family members have been well-educated, and wouldn't do such a stupid, pointless, dumbass and moronic thing as tell people "Fuck it, burn the oath of office, give up, don't vote."

Smart people engage in the political process and become part of the solution. Stupid people stand on the sidelines and whine. These protesters are in the "stupid" group.

I know what they're trying to do--they are making it very clear (reading is fundamental).

They want people to NOT VOTE.

They think all parties are the same.

They are opposed to the entire poltical process--they are pointless gripers and nothing more.

They weren't burning the Presidential oath of office to keep warm, you know.

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Response to MADem (Reply #65)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 02:12 AM

68. You may find out your children might be some of those people you call morons. Just sayin'

Maybe not in Charlotte today, but sometime.

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Response to Cleita (Reply #68)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 02:20 AM

69. No. Education cures that kind of stupidity--really. nt

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Response to MADem (Reply #69)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 02:26 AM

70. Or it makes them think that parents are full of shit. n/t

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Response to Cleita (Reply #70)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 02:33 AM

72. Only if their parents send them to shitty schools. nt

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Response to banned from Kos (Reply #7)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 03:15 AM

75. I don't necessarily think it's a bad thing

for the drooling RW knuckle draggers to know, that ....
hey we got our own "crazies" on the far Left you know.

Who occupied Wall St. and changed the national
conversation about the economy to a more sane frequency.

What's not "fair and balanced" about that?

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Response to struggle4progress (Original post)

Thu Sep 6, 2012, 11:12 PM

9. Occupy is a total failure. What a bunch of anti-Democratic losers.

And stinky, too.

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Response to Pterodactyl (Reply #9)

Thu Sep 6, 2012, 11:13 PM

11. These aren't Occupy.

I don't know why the OP is trying to make it look like that.

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Response to Cleita (Reply #11)

Thu Sep 6, 2012, 11:16 PM

12. You sure about that? The article quotes Occupy Charlotte.

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Response to Pterodactyl (Reply #12)

Thu Sep 6, 2012, 11:18 PM

14. Same OP on another OP said so.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=220975

See post #25. And even if they are Occupy. They have the same right to protest as anyone else.

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Response to Cleita (Reply #14)

Thu Sep 6, 2012, 11:27 PM

16. Of course they have the right to protest. Doesn't mean they are not stupid.

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Response to Pterodactyl (Reply #16)

Thu Sep 6, 2012, 11:29 PM

17. As long as you get it,

you are entitled to think they are stupid.

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Response to Cleita (Reply #14)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 12:24 AM

34. You're confusing an event in Charlotte with one in Chicago

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Response to struggle4progress (Reply #34)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 12:29 AM

37. I'm not confusing anything including the fact that you keep

spaming and trying to get DUers to fight among themselves. C'mon admit it. That's what you like to do. Hmmmm?

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Response to Cleita (Reply #37)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 12:46 AM

44. I sadly remember Nixon, Reagan, Bush I, and Bush II -- and for the next 60 days, my main objective

is to fight to get Mr Obama re-elected, because another Republican president now would be a disaster for all of us

So for a while, I wouldn't be seen dead singing Kumbaya with various political nitwits -- including, but not limited to, those who don't vote or those who say Obama's as bad as Bush

Spam, of course, is a ToS violation here, so if you think someone is spamming the board, you should alert -- though in my experience, outraged cries of "Spam! Spam!" generally signify nothing more than someone disliking what they hear

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Response to struggle4progress (Reply #44)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 12:53 AM

46. Really, that's what you are going to do, fight for his reelection?

Then why aren't you using your time to go after the Romney/Ryan camp instead of criticizing some poor and disenfranchised Americans who are trying to get their President's attention? And you do know that all your posts are archived for all to see?

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Response to struggle4progress (Reply #44)

Sat Sep 8, 2012, 03:55 PM

149. That's nuts

 

Harriet Tubman would realize that.



here is you sign line.

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Response to Cleita (Reply #37)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 10:10 PM

129. Thank you for fighting a good fight.

I spent a lot of Labor Day around a friend's husband who was like some are here.

If anyone mention anything at all that the Dem Leadership should seriously think about, to improve the lot of the poor and the increasingly disappearing middle class, and it was this outpouring of hostility. "You want Romney to win. You want to demolish the Movement." And on and on.

No I just want to be able to vote my conscience. And to have my conscience and the conscience of the Dem Leadership be on the same page.

What was really antagonizing about all this is the guy doesn't have a job, and his wife supports him. It's not like anything that is happening affects him - he has been mooching for the last six years of his life. She gets up at 5:30 Am in the morning so she can keep a paycheck coming into the household, and so they have insurance.

If his life has been all that great up to now, it is only because of her. Not Obama, not Bill Clinton, his prosperity, slim as it is, is because of his wife. If she dies before she reaches 66 years of age, he's going to have to face the reality that many of us are facing. Little in the way of job prospects; yet somehow we're expected to find work and survive until the Social Security kicks in at 66.


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Response to Cleita (Reply #14)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 02:55 PM

105. If they were TeaBagger racist nuts, would you still be vigorously

defending their right to protest?

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Response to Common Sense Party (Reply #105)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 02:59 PM

106. Actually, I would be and have done so in the past.

They have a right to their voice. We don't have to listen. When I do object is when they start to take over our rights like the Tea Party backed voter suppression going on in our government that I object. The voter suppression, incidentally isn't being done by protestors, but by Governors, legislators and courts in those states involved.

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Response to Cleita (Reply #106)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 03:04 PM

107. Good. Thank you for your consistency.

I think the Occupiers have as much a right to protest as the silly geezers with Earl Grey bags dangling off their hatbrims.

And I consider both groups to be equally impotent and feckless.

What I don't care for is when either group veers off into vandalism or lawbreaking.

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Response to Common Sense Party (Reply #107)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 03:06 PM

108. Usually, the vandalism and lawbreaking seems to come from

disruptors who aren't part of the group, but infiltrate it to deliberately cause trouble, or often when the police start it, like macing those girls in NYC for no reason at all.

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Response to Cleita (Reply #11)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 09:51 PM

128. Yeah, I don't know why Ocean Pacific would do such a thing.

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Response to Pterodactyl (Reply #9)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 03:21 AM

76. Please stop embarrassing yourself

Occupy manifested brilliantly to save this planet,
and any number of species, including our own,
from utterly destroying ourselves.

They changed the whole freaking conversation,
in the USA and abroad, about economic justice and
basic financial principles of not shitting on your own
dinner plate.

Think of a butterfly's wing beating in China, and
you're likely to get my drift.




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Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #76)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 07:20 AM

91. "They changed the whole freaking conversation".

So did 'Star Wars'. BFD.

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Response to randome (Reply #91)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 03:56 PM

118. Star Wars action figures still fetch a nice price on EBay, I'm told.

Zuccotti Park is where people meet to go to lunch, nowadays.

It was a great idea. It was shittily executed.

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #76)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 02:08 PM

98. In the beginning, I thought so too

I'd go so far as to say that they have altered the conversation, yes. Now, however, they seem intent to "shit in the punch" as another poster put it.

There was momentum, there was global empathy and almost a global revolution of thought which I had some faint hope might lead to greater enlightenment. Most of them though, decided to go home and work within the system for change. The problem is that while the problems they protest are huge and the challenges many... as far as I am aware the only logical solutions require working within the system, by voting or running for office.

If this group is part of the current Occupy movement, then I no longer have anything in common with occupy.

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #76)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 09:48 PM

126. Wow. Sleeping in tents saved the planet.

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Response to Pterodactyl (Reply #126)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 10:38 PM

130. Your toxic sarcastism is duly noted ~nt

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #130)

Sat Sep 8, 2012, 11:53 AM

137. : )

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Response to Pterodactyl (Reply #9)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 04:47 AM

83. How can you tell they are stinky?

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Response to limpyhobbler (Reply #83)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 09:49 PM

127. Because I've talked to them and inadvertantly smelled them.

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Response to Pterodactyl (Reply #9)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 06:21 PM

121. That's not a valid characterization. How involved have you personally been with an Occupy?

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Response to struggle4progress (Original post)

Thu Sep 6, 2012, 11:12 PM

10. Newsflash!

People have a right to protest even a President that we like.

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Response to Cleita (Reply #10)

Thu Sep 6, 2012, 11:31 PM

19. Absolutely!

Thank you for posting that, Cleita. I was beginning to despair about the other postings here. It is the other side that seeks to close debate and sees other opionions as dangerous and illigitimate.

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Response to Proletariatprincess (Reply #19)

Thu Sep 6, 2012, 11:33 PM

20. For one thing the protestors are not being correctly

identified many times by our sloppy media. However, no matter who they are, they still have that right.

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Response to Cleita (Reply #10)

Thu Sep 6, 2012, 11:36 PM

22. Could you link me to where in this thread someone said that they didnt have that right?

Personally I think if any protest needs to be done it should be done more towards congress as there is a large majority in congress who deserve it far more.

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Response to cstanleytech (Reply #22)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 05:58 PM

119. Personally, I think all of their almost exclusively hierarchical focus is evidence of a failure of

authentic horizontalism, or of a horizontalism that was capable of producing only one type of collaboration, i.e. anti-authoritarianism, which would also explain their failures in developing their own leaders, which process could still be in the works, I suppose, so that we might eventually see somekind of anti-authoritarian authority, I guess. This is one of the reasons their masks have never worked for me either. If you define the oppression as dishonesty, and apparently that's a mighty big IF amongst this group, how does refusal to put your name and identity on what you're doing solve for dishonesty? It DOESN'T. It works AGAINST honesty.

None of that works for me, because it doesn't recognize the potentiality of its own slavery to anything but a single monolithic concept destruction of power by acquisition of power, i.e. fascism. I think that drive is latent in "lower" economic class persons, but because of their economic need, it tends to be suppressed, so it is vulnerable to the support of those who have the material luxury of indulging the same tendencies and are driven by similar motivations, anger and frustration from other sources, who have the use of more exotic tools like computers and the internet, but are driven also by more purely political motivations, such as the legalization of cannabis and/or LGBTQ rights, which have roots also in the Libertarian & anarchist spectrum.

Authentic freedom is capable of choosing to do something really new or choosing to conform to chosen aspects of the status quo.

I don't think we are looking at a group that is capable of that kind of freedom . . .

. . . yet, I hope.

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Response to Cleita (Reply #10)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 03:22 AM

77. hear here!! nt

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Response to struggle4progress (Original post)

Thu Sep 6, 2012, 11:29 PM

18. Question for Struggle For Progress

 

About 70 protesters? Should I be concerned.



Would she?

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Response to Herlong (Reply #18)

Thu Sep 6, 2012, 11:37 PM

23. Not a sprint

 

a relay.

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Response to Herlong (Reply #18)


Response to Herlong (Reply #144)

Sat Sep 8, 2012, 03:21 PM

145. I am fired up and I am ready to go!

 

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Response to Herlong (Reply #145)

Sat Sep 8, 2012, 03:24 PM

146. Sorry struggle

 

I am an African American in the mist of this "struggle" and I am fired up and I am ready to go!

70 people didn't bother Harriet Tubman, and it sure as hell won't bother me!

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Response to struggle4progress (Original post)

Thu Sep 6, 2012, 11:34 PM

21. Not terribly overwhelming

Seventy people in protest? Now if we compare that with how many watched the President and Vice President speak tonight...

While I won't go so far as to say the protesting is irrelevant (they do, after all, point out and protest important issues) I will say that they could have chosen a better time or strategy. Perhaps a little advertising or even word of mouth would help them gain enough people to get the attention that any such movement needs to accomplish anything meaningful.

We'll see, I'm not prepared to write off such movements as I think they may very well play a vital role in our future.

That said... President Obama did something tonight he also did four years ago. He inspired me and gave me hope. That man represents, in so many ways, the kind of America I want to live in and want my children to live in.

They want a President that will confront the corporate oligarchy? One that will try to maintain and improve environmental standards? Well, we already have one. I'm looking forward to four more years of Obama and Biden.

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Response to davidthegnome (Reply #21)

Thu Sep 6, 2012, 11:47 PM

24. Really? A better time?

Protests are done to get the attention of authorities you don't agree with. You do it when they are in town. May I refer you to the anti-war protests at the Democratic convention in Chicago in 1968. They weren't welcome there either but it was the opening salvo that eventually ended that war and the draft. I mean should protesters serve tea and crumpets instead when its convenient? You may not agree with the protesters but they have a right to show up when the time is better for them, not you.

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Response to Cleita (Reply #24)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 12:18 AM

31. I am not arguing that they should not protest.

I did not - and will not dispute that they have that right, of course they do.

If that was the best time that they could find for everyone (except for whatever potential people may have joined them had they not been watching the convention...) then that was the best time for them, fair enough. I would not ask them to choose a time more convenient for me.

Instead, I would suggest that a protest of 70 people - at any time - is unlikely to garner significant support or sympathy from politicians, the public or the media. It may well have earned this report precisely because of the staging time, but with such few members, no one from the President to a young punk like me is going to take them very seriously. Are they really trying to get him to come out and speak? For a million people, perhaps he would have. For seventy... he's the President, there were millions of people watching the Convention live.. I believe his priorities are in proper order.

1968 is well before my time, but from what I do know of that history, there was passion... logic... and a large number of people prepared to challenge and sacrifice for their goals. This strikes me as something very different.

If they are actually hoping to accomplish something... there are better methods for doing so. If I gathered a small group of fellow students and protested outside a government or corporate building, they would sneer and laugh up their sleeves. If I gathered a large number, they'd start getting nervous, enough, perhaps, to confront us or at least acknowledge the issue.

It's not a matter of being unwelcome, it's a matter of being, ultimately, insignificant.

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Response to davidthegnome (Reply #31)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 12:21 AM

32. Wow, I'm speechless especially about the part of being

insignificant when exercising your right to democracy. One person protesting is not insignificant. Remember Ghandi. He started out as one person.

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Response to Cleita (Reply #32)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 12:32 AM

40. The difference being...

Gandhi is not there to lead *them*. Their rights are not insignificant - their actions are. The (very) few people that care about this particular group - other than themselves are unlikely to have much impact. Most will see this as an annoying publicity stunt, rather than an honest attempt to make a difference.

If I punch a nail with my fist, it's not going into the board, all I accomplish is hurting my hand. I need to use something heavier, harder - like a hammer.

Frankly, if I'm going to exercise my rights, I will do so in a manner that I believe may actually accomplish something other than annoying a few people on the internet. Regardless of my personal views, I would not join a protest against Romney on convention night if I had only sixty nine people to stand with me. I would wait until I had thousands, which could perhaps in time grow into millions. Then I would have a hammer.

It is true that you have to start somewhere... but first impressions make a huge difference.

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Response to davidthegnome (Reply #40)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 12:34 AM

41. First impressions are important at a debutante ball.

You go ahead and do what you have to do to actually accomplish something and leave the protesters to actually put themselves and often their futures on the line so you can have a better one.

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Response to Cleita (Reply #41)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 12:38 AM

42. So, 70 people grabbing for headlines...

are putting themselves and their future on the line? Please. If I kick a bull in the ass, I'm putting myself on the line - if I shout at people, most of whom either don't care or can't hear me anyway.. then all I'm doing is shouting - worse, I'm shouting ineffectively.

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Response to davidthegnome (Reply #42)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 12:59 AM

47. You know that protesters, who were bloodied and arrested gave you civil rights. Some died.

Of course if you are white you won't care. Protestors made sure you never had to go fight in a war you didn't want to fight in. Many of them were arrested and it affected their futures, but you don't have to go to Iraq or Afghanistan. Protestors went on strike, often were beaten and sometimes killed so you could have better wages and job benefits. Protesters helped break the glass ceiling so women could get better jobs with better pay, or they would still be working in offices for half of what men make. But if you aren't a woman you won't care, but I bet the women in your life do.

Many of the the privileges your little entitled ass enjoys today is because protesters shouted, were often ineffective, were often beaten, arrested and sometimes killed because some other entitled asshole didn't like it.

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Response to Cleita (Reply #47)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 01:11 AM

51. I think you're getting carried away

Logic, history... common sense... all of these would suggest that some of those Protestors were and ARE... actually white. Your generalization is absurd as well as racist and sexist.

Having studied history, I'm familiar with the events you're referring to, but you seem to have had a different history book. Yes, there were people who struggled, bled, were imprisoned or even killed for many of the rights we have today. They did not however, come from one race or gender. They come from every possible background you could imagine and they accomplished great things by working together despite their differences.

As for my entitled little ass... well, I would ask... what do you know of my entitled little ass? I've been beaten for the sake of my beliefs a few times. I've suffered quite a lot - I could give you a lengthy history of the suffering this poor little gnome has faced, yet I suspect you would not believe or not care.

I am a white male, so is my Father and so were my Grandfather and Great Grandfather... all democrats. My Father was one of those Vietnam war Protestors, my Grandfather was wounded in battle during World War II. My Great Grandfather was one of the first who dared struggle to help form a union - a man who worked in mines from sunup to sundown.

If my white little ass is entitled, it's because of the sacrifices and struggles of those who have gone before me. You are comparing apples and oranges. The differences in the situations you're talking about are quite vast.

As for your contempt, I find it mildly amusing.

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Response to davidthegnome (Reply #51)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 01:17 AM

54. When you make fun of and make derogatory comments about what is a

a civic right of the public to gain the attention of their rulers so to speak like they are some kind of unwashed lower classes, it speaks a lot of whom you are you entitled jerk. It always is a last resort, not a party. You may have studied history, but I lived it. I'm probably the same age as your grandfather and I was one of those protesters back then. I was always scared. We didn't do it because it was a picnic. We did it because it was the only way to get the attention of those who could do something about it.

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Response to Cleita (Reply #54)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 01:26 AM

57. Lots of projecting going on here...

You know, I don't recall having implied a single thing about anyone being unwashed, of a lower class, or even being entitled, or a jerk. What I do recall is pointing out quite truthfully that what they're doing has no impact and is therefor insignificant. Perhaps not insignificant to you, but insignificant in the grand scheme of things. I did not resort to personal attacks simply because I disagreed with them, I won't do that here either.

I know nothing of your history or your age, so I will do you the kindness you did not do me - I will not judge you based on a brief conversation on an internet forum.

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Response to davidthegnome (Reply #57)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 01:31 AM

58. Whatever junior. Have a nice life.

You will remember my words when they come back to bite you in the future and they will.

You really don't realize how offensive your words have been. If you find mine offensive, well that's payback.

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Response to Cleita (Reply #58)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 01:39 AM

60. Actually

I'm pretty sure this conversation here was brief and not terribly effective for either side of our debate. I may remember this as one of those reasons I should find a forum where people are more civil... or actually bother to argue about the points they read rather than resorting to personal attacks.

I assure you, your words won't come back to bite me. My skin is thick enough to survive the assault, to not be terribly wounded either now or in the future.

I'll certainly try to have a good life. You too and whatnot.

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Response to davidthegnome (Reply #60)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 03:49 AM

80. Yeah, personal

attacks are not cool. Unless a freeper gets on and spouts brainwashed garbage and then all bets are off!

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Response to Cleita (Reply #47)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 06:27 AM

88. Yes, and those who were bloodied were INSIDE the Convention Hall

fighting for privileges YOUR entitled ass enjoys today.

Does the name John Lewis ring any bells for you? No?

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Response to cali (Reply #88)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 01:13 PM

96. Yes, they were because I know some of them who were there

were outside the convention hall in 1968 like Jesse Jackson. And in 1968, people like those on this thread had the same reaction of disgust. Remember the Chicago eleven? Many went on to serve their country in politics. Yet there are people who would be in Afghanistan today because there still would have been a draft. There would have been no Gov. Granholm or Lillie Ledbetter if it hadn't been women who paved the way for women's rights. There would have been no President Obama if it weren't for people who died in the Civil Rights movement. People in the south would still be segregated. There would have been no people of color or women in higher office. That's just a fact.

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Response to Cleita (Reply #47)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 08:41 AM

93. Very well said.

No real change has ever come in America without people protesting in the streets, outside of the political parties. Political parties may follow behind people's movements, but they don't usually lead them.



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Response to Cleita (Reply #24)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 03:45 AM

79. I WAS going to just read this one but...

Chiming in now. The problem with Occupy is that they DID NOT have any solutions to the problem. When people gave Occupy alternative, they dismissed them and said pretty boldly "We Hate Both Parties of Power". Okay, if that's the case, start your own. Join the Green or Libertarian Parties. Do something beside WHINE and DISRUPT.

But instead, that is what they did. For some reason, they felt that others (i.e.-other tax paying citizens) did not have the rights to enjoy their community, township, city, county or regional park without stepping over people, camping out for weeks on end, who need a shower or bathing. As a sitting Park Commissioner in my local community, no they did not.

Most parks have POSTED operational hours. The PUBLIC and ALL OF THE PUBLIC are expected to abide by them or receive ordnance violation, THIS INCLUDES OCCUPY, IMHO.

Others in the original Occupy Movement that wanted to enact change have left, to do so. They might vote for President Obama, Jill Stein of the Green Party or Gary Johnson. Either way, they will VOTE and encourage others to take advantage of THEIR CONSTITUTIONAL right.

Now, do they have a right to protest....sure. Should those protest be on public streets....sure. Do they have the right to look like a fool...yep. Do they have the right to tell people not the vote...yep...BUT should the public-at-large listen to the ones that are left. Heck no~

People need to vote and be involved in the system we have, then seek to change it. Not undermine and destroy it. That is what the Republican Party wants to do.

And whoever stand with those fools....don't stand with me!

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Response to LovingA2andMI (Reply #79)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 01:30 PM

97. Well, I'm old enough to remember the protests of the sixties and partook

in many of them. The reason they were effective was because they didn't abide by operational hours or authorities shoving them around. Also, the media paid attention and reported on them. Remember how ineffective the war protests of 2001 were, that were huge worldwide, when Bush marched us to the wars we didn't want? The protesters were the same ones who protested in the sixties, only middle aged and elderly by then and they were put into free speech zones, kettled and other obstructions those who made the rules threw in front of them, something they wouldn't have put up with in the sixties The media ignored them. The administration ignored them and got us involved into two horrific wars and we are still there more than a decade later.

I think those seventy "fools" in Charlotte were effective. The burned the oath of office like people burned the flag and their draft cards in the sixties. It's meant to shock. The news reported on them, not very accurately, but they did and they got us fighting about them. They did their job whether you like it or not. Protests that effect real change are always at an inconvenient time, place and they shock.

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Response to Cleita (Reply #97)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 02:33 PM

100. No, they were NOT effective

What is burning the Oath of Office going to do? In fact, the only reason I heard about them "burning paper" was from reading this thread. Now that I know this, it makes their actions even more suspect.

As for the protest, who covered it? Yes, some local papers (as noted above) and journalists in the internet age that are seeking a story, any story to make their quota or receive hits on the internet. Otherwise, again until I read this thread....nothing, nana, zilch in actual coverage. Maybe because most in the media knew, as clearly displayed, they were just "media seekers needing attention".

Again, those who really desired change with Occupy left by April of this year. Why? Because the useless small group of complainers were stopping a real discussion, analysis and a plan of action needed to truly enact change. Some have joined Jill Stein's Presidential Campaign with the Green Party and others, Gary Johnson's Libertarian cause. Others have came back to support President Barack Obama reelection. Neither of the Occupiers that knew that change takes more than complaining and burning papers, are still out there in small numbers, on city streets....complaining!

Worst for me (and you too if you're a true believer in Democracy) these "paper burners" are telling, no better yet HIGHLY ENCOURAGING people NOT TO VOTE. Yes, give up the RIGHT people fought and died for to prove that you too can be a "paper burner complainer" who forgot that bathing is a part of America's normal society, if you desire respect of others. What a mess and shameful in my STRONG opinion.

When and if (and there are some) groups of Occupy that are complaining work on constructing ways to enact the change they desire, I'll listen. Until then, the "attention seeking paper burners" will be rightfully ignored.

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Response to LovingA2andMI (Reply #100)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 02:35 PM

101. Well, I can't argue with ignorance.

You are entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts. Have a nice life.

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Response to Cleita (Reply #101)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 02:44 PM

103. Yes, the U.S. CONSTITUTION gives me a right

To my opinion and my version of the facts, which looking at the responses of this thread, most agree with in part or whole. Even if they did not, the facts are that those who wanted to enact true change in Occupy are doing it elsewhere. Burning papers? That's above their intelligence level.

Meanwhile, let's hope the "complaining paper burners" don't start burning papers in the Public Park my taxable dollars help construct to build for families, the community and its' stakeholders can enjoy. If so, let local law enforcement personnel and/or park rangers issue "the paper burners in a public park" an ordnance violation attached to one heck of a fine!

Also, my day is very lovely, thank you very much!

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Response to LovingA2andMI (Reply #79)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 06:24 PM

122. Daaayyyuuummm! Where have you been?



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Response to struggle4progress (Original post)

Thu Sep 6, 2012, 11:48 PM

25. I support this President and this party.

 

But my heart will always be with the far left.

Taking this country farther to the left is the only thing that will save it.

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Response to struggle4progress (Original post)

Thu Sep 6, 2012, 11:54 PM

26. The rent-a-mob strikes again!

70 people isn't worth reporting.

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Response to Politicub (Reply #26)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 12:08 AM

30. The cop made me laugh--a real "Andy of Mayberry" conversation, there....

Charlotte police Maj. Dale Greene stepped into the crowd to talk to protesters stopped at Tryon and Stonewall. A woman asked why his hand was on his gun.

“Because I don’t want you touching my pistol,” Greene said with a smile. She walked away, also smiling.


Read more here: http://www.thenewstribune.com/2012/09/06/2284839/protesters-again-take-to-uptown.html#storylink=cpy

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Response to MADem (Reply #30)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 01:10 AM

50. Oh, what a cute little story.

An authority figure flaunting her fire arm to unarmed citizens.

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Response to Cleita (Reply #50)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 01:13 AM

52. You really don't read contextually at all, do you? nt

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Response to MADem (Reply #52)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 01:20 AM

56. Bilious crap? No. n/t

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Response to Cleita (Reply #56)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 01:39 AM

59. No--I'm talking about some pretty basic reading, here.

Here's what you said in post fifty--and it's ALL WRONG:

Oh, what a cute little story.

An authority figure flaunting her fire arm to unarmed citizens.


First--the cop was male, not female (as you erroneously indicated) .

Second, HE wasn't "flaunting her (his) fire arm" in the slightest. In fact, he was doing the OPPOSITE of "flaunting."

He was responding in a very convivial and lighthearted fashion to a goading protester who ascribed motives to his shielding his weapon from being taken from him.

Third, his demeanor was entirely pleasant (which you likely skipped over as it didn't validate your wrongheaded impression of the interaction), as he diffused the situation and made the goader laugh.

These people protesting were total losers--they're changing the world by burning a copy of the presidential oath of office? Please. Fucking schmucks. And you actually think these dorks are COOL? That this kind of shit is meaningful? Sure, they have the "right" to protest, and they have the "right" to bang their thick heads against a telephone pole if they'd like, too...but is what they are doing smart? Important? World-changing? I think not. I think they're just idiots. Lame losers with no ideas save "Waaaah--I don't like those guys....or those guys....or these guys over here!!! Waaaaaah!!!!"

Read the highlighted bits, carefully, now this time--no "fight the power" and no "evil pigs" to rail against--it's just Andy and a few more qualified Barneys on bikes at that little protest:


But relations between police and protesters remained mostly cordial, with some march organizers conferring with police commanders on the direction of the march.

Charlotte police Maj. Dale Greene stepped into the crowd to talk to protesters stopped at Tryon and Stonewall. A woman asked why his hand was on his gun.

“Because I don’t want you touching my pistol,” Greene said with a smile. She walked away, also smiling.


The marchers later walked back down Stonewall to the speaker’s platform across from the NASCAR Hall of Fame. There some burned two small pieces of paper – copies of the presidential oath of office.


Read more here: http://www.thenewstribune.com/2012/09/06/2284839/protesters-again-take-to-uptown.html#storylink=cpy

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Response to MADem (Reply #59)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 01:59 AM

64. I thought it was funny too.

Smart cop.

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Response to davidthegnome (Reply #64)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 02:08 AM

66. He clearly stayed awake in the "Defusing hectoring and goading civilians" lecture.

Good thing. Be nice if there were more like him.

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Response to struggle4progress (Original post)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 12:26 AM

35. I'm am glad to read of these protests and would be disappointed if there were none.

Corporations have far too much power over our lives. I know we're all consumers and I love to consume as much as the next guy, but I don't want corporations educating my children, dictating my health care, and controlling everything I do. Government is of, by and for the people, not corporations. Both parties need to get this message, but the corporate media isn't giving it. These kids in the streets have a message, try listening to them!

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Response to mountain grammy (Reply #35)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 12:31 AM

39. The protesters are fine. They are exercising their rights.

They seem to be getting along fine with the police. The only ones upset about this are some armchair keyboarders with too much time on their hands.

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Response to Cleita (Reply #39)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 01:00 AM

48. Upset is too strong of a word

I'm annoyed and perhaps a little sad - as I am every time I see wasted potential. Truly upset though? No. If it had been a larger group with a reasonable solution to any of the problems they complain about... had they a leader, any sort of structure, organization, or better ideas to solve problems... well, that would be a different matter.

Protesting the war in Vietnam was one thing, the solution was obvious... bring them home, end the damn thing. Protesting the power of the corporate oligarchy, or our environmental standards... is quite different, as without a solution you may as well be punching a nail with your fist.

They're awful good at complaining... but as for actually doing anything about the problem? When it comes to having solutions? I see nothing but complaining. These people are not Gandhi and they are not the Vietnam war protestors. They are a nuisance to "armchair keyboarders with too much time on their hands" (I admit, it's about 1 AM, no class until 9, so I've got too much time on my hands). They may inspire other "armchair keyboarders with too much time on their hands." They may even encourage debate among such as to the value of their actions.

What they aren't doing? Anything useful.

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Response to davidthegnome (Reply #48)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 04:08 AM

82. Perfect ^^^^

Right on point and the exact reason many who initially supported the Occupy Movement, have LEFT! The rest just seek to disrupt because they have nothing else to do!

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Response to davidthegnome (Reply #48)


Response to struggle4progress (Original post)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 06:13 AM

87. I'm happy to see people are still allowed to protest.

I wonder how long that will hold up.

Between the cops and fellow citizens' contempt it's a wonder it happens at all. Maybe we can have a nice Democratic vote to ban them altogether soon.

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Response to Kurovski (Reply #87)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 07:19 AM

90. In this particular case

They have earned that contempt. Sorry, but anyone who burns a copy of the Presidential oath of office... on the night of a convention for a man who has been a pretty decent President... well, someone who does that has earned my contempt. I have the same contempt for those who burn holy books, or even Harry Potter (I know some who have done this) simply because it is offensive to them. Also, if they are (as I have read) telling people not to vote, they strike me as a part of the problem and not the solution.

No one, not a single person here... has suggested they don't have the right to protest, that we should ban protests, or that we have contempt for all protestors. I admire those who did their part in the 60s and the 70s... I admire those who today find the courage and the will to get up and protest war - I have marched with them.

I do not admire this group.

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Response to davidthegnome (Reply #90)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 07:36 AM

92. They didn't burn him in effigy.

The system is super-duper fucked. I think even Obama is going to get the message.

The rest of the arguments here sound a bit "Amy-Vanderbilt-ish", to my ear.

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Response to Kurovski (Reply #87)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 09:51 AM

94. True! The protests agains the protesters on this blog is chilling..

A couple of hundred years ago, the right to assemble was considered so important it was written into our Constitution. The establishment simply will not pay attention to the issues affecting the people until the people shove these issues into the face of the establishment. Women's right to vote, Civil Rights and the Vietnam War are just 3 examples of the many times change has happened because people got into the streets. The corps have the money, but we outnumber them.

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Response to mountain grammy (Reply #94)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 09:59 AM

95. More like protestations or complaints than actual protests, but I take your meaning.

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Response to struggle4progress (Original post)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 07:13 AM

89. The only worthwhile form of political expression in America is to work through the Democratic Party.

Everybody else smells like shit.

Just kidding. But that's my sarcastic reaction to some of the posts up above.

People should protest loudly over important issues that are excluded from the Democratic party.

You can protest Obama's policies but still vote for him to keep the gop out, as many many many many people will do.

Thank you, God Bless You, God Bless this Thread, and God Bless America.

Al Gore 2016
Ban Fracking Now


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Response to limpyhobbler (Reply #89)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 03:25 PM

110. +100000 It's ALL a verb. People should think more in probabilities and act with more ISSUE integrity

I think that has to begin with recognizing that power is not an objective in and of itself at all times.

Sometimes, you act in such a manner as to let, or make it necessary, other players to play their cards.

What's happening is a verb(s), a process(es), event(s).

I could go for Gore in 2016 or whomever he picks. Have not fully decided about retiring the electoral college, but I'd like to hear more about that.

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Response to patrice (Reply #110)

Sun Sep 9, 2012, 01:15 AM

161. I do hope Vice President Gore will consider running for President in 2016

It seems like he would make climate change a top priority.

He's got a great qualification that nobody else can claim: he's actually ran for President and won.

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Response to struggle4progress (Original post)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 02:29 PM

99. When it comes down to it...

There are few things I find more despicable than burning writing material to make some kind of political point. Throughout history, many tyrants have done this, now though, it seems people do it to grab some attention. It may be effective in the short term - people will get pissed off so they might sit up and listen... but they will not listen long if you don't have much to say.

So what does this group have to say? Obama... come out, we want to talk about the environment and the corporations that are destroying this Country? You know, he might possibly have been more inclined to care about what they had to say if they hadn't burned a copy of the Presidential oath of office... an oath he has taken and I am sure holds to be sacred - or at the very least, takes very seriously.

They don't have to burn him in effigy, burning the oath makes it very clear what their sentiments are.

The ridiculous thing is that I actually agree with them on several points. Yes, I despise the corporate oligarchy and think it has far too much power in this Country. Yes, I think our environmental standards require vast improvement if we are to do our part in slowing climate change. I'd be thrilled if Politicians paid more attention to these issues... however, I believe they are being acknowledged and addressed by the democratic party overall. Yes, things are happening slowly, it's going to take years of work, voting, campaigning, maybe arm wrestling some of the more stubborn imbeciles in office... but ultimately, we can accomplish what we need by working within the system. It is not so broken that it can't be fixed.

I can't think of any large protest movement in history that succeeded without some kind of solution, without a plan. In some cases the solutions were obvious, in others they were not. Generally there were leaders who rose to the occasion and brave people willing to sacrifice for what they believed in.

Perhaps this is why this is no longer a large protest movement. There is no plan, no solution that I have yet seen.. nor a leader to unite them and express their ideas to the public.

That said - I will never stand side by side with assholes who burn writing material for moronic reasons.

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Response to struggle4progress (Original post)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 02:49 PM

104. I need this organized group to address the point that their course of action will result in more

harm to their putative goals than a more collaborative approach.

If they don't think that harm is a higher probability than solutions, they need to make their case for why they think that.

Failing support for some form of problem solving, I can only conclude that they cannot agree amongst themselves what the solutions are, i.e. they are anathema to themselves, so their efforts aren't about solutions.

What then are their efforts about? The most obvious answer to that question is power.

If I am wrong in that answer, I need someone to demonstrate why I am wrong, otherwise, all I see is fascism masquerading as anarchy.

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Response to struggle4progress (Original post)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 03:33 PM

112. Not much of an absolutist here, but I will fight tooth and nail ANYONE who says "Don't vote."

Not voting is what created the mess we are dealing with.

Being ignorant about the issues and uninvolved is enabled by not voting.

Not voting is PURE Slavery, not just for your own ignorant self, but for millions of people who are affected by that LIE.

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Response to struggle4progress (Original post)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 03:35 PM

113. K&R n/t

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Response to struggle4progress (Original post)

Sat Sep 8, 2012, 03:48 AM

134. The contempt directed toward Occupy is telling

First they try to co-opt us, then they ignore us, and now we are the enemy.

I also love how the 60's protest were "good" but these protest are "bad".

Congrats on showing your true (partisan lock-step) colors.

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Response to U4ikLefty (Reply #134)

Sat Sep 8, 2012, 05:55 AM

135. There's no definite agenda, and there's no definite strategy -- so it's a bust

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Response to struggle4progress (Reply #135)

Sat Sep 8, 2012, 03:12 PM

143. Damn

 

Last edited Sat Sep 8, 2012, 04:07 PM - Edit history (1)

You're wrong.

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Response to U4ikLefty (Reply #134)

Sat Sep 8, 2012, 09:47 AM

136. You are with Occupy then?

I ask because of your use of "us".

There ARE good and bad protests. Unless you think that the Tea Party has many valid points..? They have as much right, of course, to protest as anyone else, even if they are assholes.

I'll tell you what made this a "bad" protest, from my point of view. Burning a copy of the Presidential oath of office. Their lack of leadership, organization or solution is actually secondary to that, for me. There are few things I value more than books, particularly those that have some sort of historical relevance. Now this may be a copy of the Presidential oath of office and not a copy of a holy book, but for me, there is precious little difference.

If you want to associate yourself with a group that uses the tactics of tyrants, that's your business. The protests of the 60s (so I would imagine) were both good and bad, as people were hurt, imprisoned and worse. I'm sure there were people back then who were more interested in a good fight, or a good time, than in actually being there to protest.

Somehow, I don't think that people who have contempt for this group are generally partisan, marching in lock-step. I assure you, it's quite possible to be an individual and not hold Occupy in high regard.

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Response to struggle4progress (Original post)

Sat Sep 8, 2012, 12:47 PM

138. Hippie Punching









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Response to warrprayer (Reply #138)

Sat Sep 8, 2012, 02:19 PM

141. The protesters were pretty well treated IMO. Lots of possible arrests weren't made

For example, it is flat-out illegal in North Carolina to demonstrate while your face is covered. That law seemed strange to me, until I understood it was directed against violent secret societies like the Klan -- and now, I think it is a good law. Under the law, all the following are illegal:



http://l.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/Vu6fVqiN4nqWyFxbgKGhNw--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Y2g9MTkzMztjcj0xO2N3PTMwMDA7ZHg9MDtkeT0wO2ZpPXVsY3JvcDtoPTQwNjtxPTg1O3c9NjMw/

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Response to struggle4progress (Reply #141)

Sat Sep 8, 2012, 04:10 PM

153. The 'Unmask the DNC' sign is the most ironic one. Held by a masked protester.

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Response to randome (Reply #153)

Sun Sep 9, 2012, 12:57 PM

163. Unintentional irony is not dead! I'm betting that sign waver thought that contribution was profound

too! Yeah, man--I'll tell 'em!!!!

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Response to warrprayer (Reply #138)

Sat Sep 8, 2012, 02:21 PM

142. Here's an example of asshat for you:

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Response to struggle4progress (Reply #142)

Sat Sep 8, 2012, 03:40 PM

148. Why not vote, struggle for progress?

 

If if you don't vote, why are on a board the says voting is something you should do?

P.S. You don't represent me.

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Response to Herlong (Reply #148)

Sat Sep 8, 2012, 06:00 PM

156. I vote; I encourage others to vote; and I regularly register people to vote

This week I've registered 14 people in the course of other campaign work

I think the folk who pretend to be progressives and encourage others not to vote are idiots

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Response to struggle4progress (Reply #142)

Sat Sep 8, 2012, 04:02 PM

150. Thank you for that post

 

Now I can alert on you. You kinda suck.

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Response to Herlong (Reply #150)

Sat Sep 8, 2012, 04:06 PM

151. I think you're not seeing struggle4progress' point.

I believe he is saying that a sign that says 'Obama Is Murder' shows the intent of agitators to advocate for anarchy, not help Democrats.

Although it would be interesting to see how many more presumptive posts you can put on this thread, I thought I'd take a chance and suggest that you might be mistaken.

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Response to randome (Reply #151)

Sat Sep 8, 2012, 04:08 PM

152. And this is helpful

 

how?

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Response to Herlong (Reply #152)

Sat Sep 8, 2012, 04:12 PM

154. Perhaps to point out that people who say 'Obama is murder' are not helpful.

I'll stop trying to put words into anyone else's meanings at this point. If struggle4progress wants to respond to you, that's his/her move to make.

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Response to Herlong (Reply #152)

Sat Sep 8, 2012, 06:02 PM

157. warrprayer calls me an asshat in #138. so i thought i'd indicate who the real asshats are

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Response to Herlong (Reply #152)

Sun Sep 9, 2012, 01:09 PM

164. Saying people "suck" isn't very helpful, and that is what you did.

Further, you completely misinterpreted S4P's point. Utterly!

You didn't acquit yourself very well in this thread, both in your treatment of other DUers OR in your ability to comprehend the written word.

Embarrassing, that.

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Response to MADem (Reply #164)

Fri Oct 5, 2012, 02:37 AM

165. MADem is correct

 

I was lost in the heat of the argument, not seeing the forest for the trees and have berated myself ever since.

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