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Thu Sep 6, 2012, 06:25 PM

Judge orders accused Fort Hood shooter to have his beard shaved

Source: CNN

A judge has ordered that the beard of Maj. Nidal Hasan, the Army psychiatrist accused of fatally shooting 13 people at Fort Hood, be forcibly shaved ahead of his upcoming military trial, base spokesman Tyler Broadway said Thursday.

Col. Gregory Gross issued the order, which will likely trigger an appeal that would further delay a case that has dragged on since the 2009 mass shooting.

Hasan's attorney had filed an appeal when Gross threatened to order the shaving, but the appeals court said it wouldn't issue a decision until the shaving was actually ordered. Thursday's order by Gross opens the door for that appeal.

The last time he was in court, Hasan told the judge, "Your honor, in the name of almighty Allah, I am a Muslim. I believe that my religion requires me to wear a beard."

Read more: http://www.cnn.com/2012/09/06/justice/fort-hood-trial/index.html

122 replies, 15214 views

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Arrow 122 replies Author Time Post
Reply Judge orders accused Fort Hood shooter to have his beard shaved (Original post)
alp227 Sep 2012 OP
MADem Sep 2012 #1
1StrongBlackMan Sep 2012 #2
cstanleytech Sep 2012 #3
1StrongBlackMan Sep 2012 #8
slackmaster Sep 2012 #12
1StrongBlackMan Sep 2012 #18
slackmaster Sep 2012 #22
alp227 Sep 2012 #13
1StrongBlackMan Sep 2012 #19
slackmaster Sep 2012 #27
1StrongBlackMan Sep 2012 #36
slackmaster Sep 2012 #39
1StrongBlackMan Sep 2012 #51
slackmaster Sep 2012 #104
LaydeeBug Sep 2012 #119
Hugabear Sep 2012 #82
msanthrope Sep 2012 #89
msanthrope Sep 2012 #88
1StrongBlackMan Sep 2012 #102
jberryhill Sep 2012 #108
jberryhill Sep 2012 #107
4th law of robotics Sep 2012 #46
1StrongBlackMan Sep 2012 #52
4th law of robotics Sep 2012 #90
awoke_in_2003 Sep 2012 #49
1StrongBlackMan Sep 2012 #76
awoke_in_2003 Sep 2012 #83
pasto76 Sep 2012 #74
1StrongBlackMan Sep 2012 #79
Old Troop Sep 2012 #114
S_B_Jackson Sep 2012 #121
cstanleytech Sep 2012 #50
1StrongBlackMan Sep 2012 #53
cstanleytech Sep 2012 #65
1StrongBlackMan Sep 2012 #67
obamanut2012 Sep 2012 #95
jberryhill Sep 2012 #109
gejohnston Sep 2012 #86
obamanut2012 Sep 2012 #96
gejohnston Sep 2012 #111
Freddie Stubbs Sep 2012 #100
jberryhill Sep 2012 #106
Bernardo de La Paz Sep 2012 #4
1StrongBlackMan Sep 2012 #9
alp227 Sep 2012 #15
1StrongBlackMan Sep 2012 #20
alp227 Sep 2012 #32
1StrongBlackMan Sep 2012 #37
pasto76 Sep 2012 #75
1StrongBlackMan Sep 2012 #80
obamanut2012 Sep 2012 #97
slackmaster Sep 2012 #33
Angleae Sep 2012 #87
Bernardo de La Paz Sep 2012 #30
1StrongBlackMan Sep 2012 #38
Bernardo de La Paz Sep 2012 #40
1StrongBlackMan Sep 2012 #54
Bernardo de La Paz Sep 2012 #56
1StrongBlackMan Sep 2012 #58
Bernardo de La Paz Sep 2012 #63
1StrongBlackMan Sep 2012 #66
Bernardo de La Paz Sep 2012 #68
Missycim Sep 2012 #85
Bernardo de La Paz Sep 2012 #41
obamanut2012 Sep 2012 #98
obamanut2012 Sep 2012 #6
1StrongBlackMan Sep 2012 #10
obamanut2012 Sep 2012 #94
nadinbrzezinski Sep 2012 #7
1StrongBlackMan Sep 2012 #11
Bernardo de La Paz Sep 2012 #31
obamanut2012 Sep 2012 #5
Red Mountain Sep 2012 #14
1StrongBlackMan Sep 2012 #23
obamanut2012 Sep 2012 #99
1StrongBlackMan Sep 2012 #16
ProudToBeBlueInRhody Sep 2012 #17
1StrongBlackMan Sep 2012 #25
ProudToBeBlueInRhody Sep 2012 #34
slackmaster Sep 2012 #35
1StrongBlackMan Sep 2012 #55
spayneuter Sep 2012 #44
1StrongBlackMan Sep 2012 #57
glacierbay Sep 2012 #73
emilyg Sep 2012 #84
Quantess Sep 2012 #112
MicaelS Sep 2012 #21
1StrongBlackMan Sep 2012 #26
slackmaster Sep 2012 #29
1StrongBlackMan Sep 2012 #59
slackmaster Sep 2012 #69
1StrongBlackMan Sep 2012 #71
spayneuter Sep 2012 #43
obamanut2012 Sep 2012 #105
spayneuter Sep 2012 #115
4th law of robotics Sep 2012 #47
1StrongBlackMan Sep 2012 #61
4th law of robotics Sep 2012 #93
Fearless Sep 2012 #24
1StrongBlackMan Sep 2012 #28
4th law of robotics Sep 2012 #48
1StrongBlackMan Sep 2012 #60
pasto76 Sep 2012 #77
1StrongBlackMan Sep 2012 #81
spayneuter Sep 2012 #120
4th law of robotics Sep 2012 #91
RobinA Sep 2012 #110
spayneuter Sep 2012 #42
riderinthestorm Sep 2012 #45
1StrongBlackMan Sep 2012 #62
cstanleytech Sep 2012 #70
1StrongBlackMan Sep 2012 #72
cstanleytech Sep 2012 #92
Pterodactyl Sep 2012 #64
pasto76 Sep 2012 #78
Quantess Sep 2012 #101
slackmaster Sep 2012 #103
Green_Lantern Sep 2012 #113
neovente Sep 2012 #116
alp227 Sep 2012 #117
PavePusher Sep 2012 #118
indypaul Sep 2012 #122

Response to alp227 (Original post)

Thu Sep 6, 2012, 06:28 PM

1. Good for the judge.

The guy was fine with being clean shaven before he decided to shoot up the joint. Playing the Religion Card now is horseshit.

He's lying about his religion, too. That "beard" thing is not a mandate, any more than a prohibition about mixing fabrics, or burning offerings on altars, is a mandate of christian religions.

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Response to alp227 (Original post)

Thu Sep 6, 2012, 06:28 PM

2. Why?

How is his bearded face going to affect his trial?

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #2)

Thu Sep 6, 2012, 06:37 PM

3. Why?

How is him being required to be clean shaven going to affect his trial?

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Response to cstanleytech (Reply #3)

Thu Sep 6, 2012, 07:19 PM

8. It won't ...

but it will infringe on HIS practice of HIS religion.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #8)

Thu Sep 6, 2012, 07:23 PM

12. Between his trial and his execution, he'll have plenty of time to re-grow the beard

 

And practice his religion.

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #12)

Thu Sep 6, 2012, 07:28 PM

18. Or ...

the military can administratively discharge him for, at the very least, insubordination, then try him, then execute him as so many wish.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #18)

Thu Sep 6, 2012, 07:34 PM

22. If that happens he'll still be able to re-grow the beard

 

I'm sure he'll be executed. I don't approve of capital punishment, but it's a fact that he'll be put to death.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #8)

Thu Sep 6, 2012, 07:23 PM

13. The law is the law, and military courts forbid beards.

End of story. No religious exemptions.

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Response to alp227 (Reply #13)

Thu Sep 6, 2012, 07:31 PM

19. So military law ...

trumps the U.S. Constitution?

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;


When'd that happen. I must have missed that one, too.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #19)

Thu Sep 6, 2012, 07:41 PM

27. All rights are subject to regulation through due process of law

 

Even the ones explicitly enumerated in the Bill of Rights.

The Army decided that facial hair could interfere with the duties of soldiers, and the courts have upheld that position.

He wasn't forced to enlist. When you enlist, you temporarily give up a lot of your basic freedoms.

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #27)

Thu Sep 6, 2012, 07:54 PM

36. That doesn't cut Constitutional muster ...

First, under strict scrutiny analysis, the regulation must be related a legitimate government purpose (i.e., as you have correctly identified, interference with the duties of a soldier might be one of them) AND there must be no less offensive alternative than the regulation.

Second, as posted in this thread, that argument fails because the military already makes excepts for soldiers (i.e., Sikhs) that ARE performing the duties of a soldier ... how can they refuse a Constitutional exception for someone, in prison, and therefore not performing the duties of a soldier?

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #36)

Thu Sep 6, 2012, 08:00 PM

39. That all sounds great in theory, but in reality all rights are subject to restriction

 

Whether you can present a coherent argument against the restriction or not.

Second, as posted in this thread, that argument fails because the military already makes excepts for soldiers (i.e., Sikhs) that ARE performing the duties of a soldier ... how can they refuse a Constitutional exception for someone, in prison, and therefore not performing the duties of a soldier?

Sounds reasonable, but the exception for Sikhs is established policy. I believe there is also such an exception for Orthodox Jews. There is no such policy for Muslims that I am aware of.

Perhaps Hassan can take the issue to the courts after his murder trial.

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #39)

Thu Sep 6, 2012, 09:43 PM

51. No disrespect intended; but ...

My theory IS the Constitutional analysis (i.e., the law) of such controversies.

I agree that "in reality all rights are subject to restriction" ... but such restrictions are subject to Constitutional analysis.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #51)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 11:23 AM

104. Defending one's rights against infringement takes more resources than most can muster

 

If you are willing to work for free, perhaps you can assist me in preparing a suit against the state of California for infringing on my right to own a machine gun. I'll have to file in forma pauperis because I need some expensive dental work.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #51)

Mon Sep 10, 2012, 01:03 AM

119. It's actually not, enlisted service members VOLUNTARILY GIVE UP SOME RIGHTS, whether YOU

think that's Constitutional or not. They give up their right to Free Speech, and agree their appearance will adhere to military code.

Can an enlisted member sport a brink pink mohawk? It's free expression, right? HOW MANY OF THEM DO YOU SEE? I am an Army brat, and I can tell you right now that you are wrong.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #36)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 12:59 AM

82. Military also allows some Special Forces types to grow beards

Many of the Special Ops forces need to be able to blend in with the population, so they are allowed to grow beards and have longer hair.

So there ARE exceptions the military is willing to make.

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Response to Hugabear (Reply #82)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 06:54 AM

89. What Special Forces Op is this dude participating in? nt

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #36)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 06:42 AM

88. First, strict scutiny analysis doesn't apply to the UCMJ. Read Parker v. Levy and Quarles.

The authority for the UCMJ derives from Article 1, sec. 8, clause 14, and therefore, while soldiers do not lose all constitutional protections, they can be restricted. For example, in the military I can own literature from the KKK, but I cannot be a member of the KKK.

Second, application of 10 USC 774 allows him to wear religious items as authorized by his Secretary, but Army Reg 670-1 is pretty clear--no beards except for medical reasons.
http://www.apd.army.mil/pdffiles/r670_1.pdf

Third--having a beard would prejudice him with the members who will hear his court martial, and who are well-aware of regulations. They would know he was in violation of code.

Fourth--downthread, you want to know why he can't be discharged, then tried. Well, that would violate his constitutional rights--the military court does have jurisdiction over you once you have left the service, even for acts you did while in service. (Quarles.)

He gets shaved. Better that the judge commits a 1st amendment violation which won't overturn a criminal conviction, than a violation that would, such as a DP or EP one.

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Response to msanthrope (Reply #88)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 11:08 AM

102. I accept most of what you have written ...

Not that I agree or do not have counter-arguments, but because I would be parsing and because I am tired of discussing this.

Thanks.

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Response to msanthrope (Reply #88)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 11:42 AM

108. Your reason number three strikes me as the important one


The judge here is actually attempting to reduce the possibility of prejudicial effect that would be caused by letting him keep the beard.

It seems to me the Defendant is attempting to lay a trap for appealable error.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #36)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 11:40 AM

107. Easy - because exceptions are discretionary, not mandatory

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #19)

Thu Sep 6, 2012, 08:35 PM

46. Actually, yeah

 

the military puts lots of restrictions on your rights.

You want to freely express yourself? Be sure to tell your drill sergeant that it's your right to say what you want and dress how you want and if he says anything about it he's oppressing you and that hurts your feelings.

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Response to 4th law of robotics (Reply #46)

Thu Sep 6, 2012, 09:47 PM

52. "Laughingly" ...

The drill sargeants lawful options do not include forcible holding your close shut, or forcibly dressing you.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #52)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 09:47 AM

90. But they do get to restrict your right to free expression

 

that's part of the deal.

You were never in the military or knew anyone who was, were you?

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #19)

Thu Sep 6, 2012, 09:09 PM

49. If you are a member of the military...

the answer is "Yes, it does"

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Response to awoke_in_2003 (Reply #49)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 12:29 AM

76. No ... it doesn't. n/t

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #76)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 01:25 AM

83. Yes, it does...

I took the oath to defend the Constitution, and fully understood that it didn't apply to me. Those is uniform answer only to the UCMJ. That is just the way t is.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #19)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 12:24 AM

74. Yes, it does.

I do NOT have free speech, freedom of expression in uniform. My 4th amendment rights do not exist in uniform.

All branches are under UCMJ. I can speak specifically of the Army. If you are not in the army, you should not speculate so wildly about its own laws, rules and regulations.

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Response to pasto76 (Reply #74)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 12:33 AM

79. No, it doesn't ...

You continue to have a 1st amendment to say whatever you wish ... You do not, however, have a right to say what you want AND remain in the military.

This is the distinctive point.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #19)

Sat Sep 8, 2012, 07:08 PM

114. Actually, the UCMJ

limits many of the rights enjoyed by American civilians.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #19)

Tue Sep 11, 2012, 12:55 AM

121. In voluntarily joining the US Military,

Maj. Hassan freely chose to limit some of his freedoms and to be governed according the the US Constitution and the Uniform Code of Military Justice.

After he gets out of the military, he can let that beard sport as wild as he wants until then, he may not.

On Edit: US Army regs with regards to permissible haircuts and facial hair.
http://www.apd.army.mil/pdffiles/r670_1.pdf see page 27

(2) Male haircuts will conform to the following standards.
(a) The hair on top of the head must be neatly groomed. The length and bulk of the hair may not be excessive or
present a ragged, unkempt, or extreme appearance. The hair must present a tapered appearance. A tapered appearance
is one where the outline of the soldier’s hair conforms to the shape of the head, curving inward to the natural
termination point at the base of the neck. When the hair is combed, it will not fall over the ears or eyebrows, or touch
the collar, except for the closely cut hair at the back of the neck. The block-cut fullness in the back is permitted to a
moderate degree, as long as the tapered look is maintained. In all cases, the bulk or length of hair may not interfere
with the normal wear of headgear (see para 1–8a(1)(a), above) or protective masks or equipment. Males are not
authorized to wear braids, cornrows, or dreadlocks (unkempt, twisted, matted, individual parts of hair) while in uniform
or in civilian clothes on duty. Hair that is clipped closely or shaved to the scalp is authorized.

(b) Males will keep sideburns neatly trimmed. Sideburns may not be flared; the base of the sideburn will be a cleanshaven,
horizontal line. Sideburns will not extend below the lowest part of the exterior ear opening.

(c) Males will keep their face clean-shaven when in uniform or in civilian clothes on duty. Mustaches are permitted;
if worn, males will keep mustaches neatly trimmed, tapered, and tidy. Mustaches will not present a chopped off or
bushy appearance, and no portion of the mustache will cover the upper lip line or extend sideways beyond a vertical
line drawn upward from the corners of the mouth (see figure 1–1). Handlebar mustaches, goatees, and beards are not
authorized. If appropriate medical authority prescribes beard growth, the length required for medical treatment must be
specified. For example, “The length of the beard will not exceed 1⁄4 inch” (see TB MED 287). Soldiers will keep the
growth trimmed to the level specified by appropriate medical authority, but they are not authorized to shape the growth
into goatees, or “Fu Manchu” or handlebar mustaches.

AR

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #8)

Thu Sep 6, 2012, 09:28 PM

50. Except he didnt ask for a waiver when he signed up and instead agreed to abide by the military rules

and regulations regarding being clean shaven.

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Response to cstanleytech (Reply #50)

Thu Sep 6, 2012, 09:49 PM

53. Americans ...

do not have to ask permission to exercise our Constitutional rights ... sometimes we have to sue to secure them; but we do not have to ask.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #53)

Thu Sep 6, 2012, 11:18 PM

65. Then try looking at it as a contract. When he signed up he agreed with the contract

and clearly he had no problems with shaving for years before he committed the murders so the whole "its against my religion" kinda falls flat.

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Response to cstanleytech (Reply #65)

Thu Sep 6, 2012, 11:21 PM

67. Okay ...

I'm done!

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #53)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 10:25 AM

95. You do in the military

And, actually, you do in some other professions, too.

Ridiculous line of reasoning. It's the military. AND he is a prisoner.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #53)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 11:45 AM

109. If I sign a contract with you....


Under which you paid me $500 for being silent for 24 hours.

And then, on the appointed day, I sing the National Anthem and recite the Constitution.

You can sue my ass for not being silent.

Among the rights you have is the right to contract.

Under our contract, I did NOT have the right to sing or speak that day, and I owe you the $500 back.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #8)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 03:55 AM

86. because uniform regulations make no allowances for religion.

uniform regulations make no allowances for that. Just like there are DoD regulations that say you can't cross a picket line to work as a scab or protest in uniform.
Based on my experiences with the British Air Force, the Brits would be more lenient. I knew an RAF officer that was a Sikh, and the turban was a nonissue to them.

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Response to gejohnston (Reply #86)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 10:28 AM

96. Sikhs can now get advance permission to join and wear their turban

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #96)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 01:55 PM

111. good news to know

sometimes learning your information is outdated is a good thing.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #8)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 10:46 AM

100. If he were really serious about practicing his religion, he wouldn't have shot 42 people

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #8)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 11:40 AM

106. He voluntarily joined the Army and abided by regulations

He is still in the military, and will be judged by a panel of officers.

If he is allowed to keep the beard, he could later claim ineffective assistance of counsel, on the ground that his lawyer advised him to keep the beard, but having the beard was prejudicial to him.

It is not unusual for criminal defendants to ask and receive odd things, and then turn around and claim that they did not receive a fair trial as a consequence of the very thing they themselves asked for or did.

Some defendants use this as a strategy.

Regardless of what this defendant may be planning, he is of exceptional intelligence and knowledge in the area of psychology. That he would use this intelligence and knowledge to engage in some form of manipulation of the process and those in it, does not strike me as unusual at all.

The judge is focused on providing a fair trial and reducing appealable errors.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #2)

Thu Sep 6, 2012, 06:39 PM

4. He is still in the military. It's a military court.

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Response to Bernardo de La Paz (Reply #4)

Thu Sep 6, 2012, 07:20 PM

9. So violating ...

the military code of conduct is punishable by forced compliance; rather than, discharge?

When'd that happen?

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #9)

Thu Sep 6, 2012, 07:24 PM

15. Discharge him, when he's suspected in a mass murder? He's gotta go thru trial!

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Response to alp227 (Reply #15)

Thu Sep 6, 2012, 07:33 PM

20. Discharge ...

Not release from custody!

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #20)

Thu Sep 6, 2012, 07:48 PM

32. But Hasan still has to abide by military court requirements,

as he's being tried for a military crime, even if discharged.

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Response to alp227 (Reply #32)

Thu Sep 6, 2012, 07:55 PM

37. Not under the U.S. Constitution. n/t

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #37)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 12:26 AM

75. US constitution does not govern miltary trials. try and wrap your head around that.

in some cases, stuff like, the defendant not being allowed to see, hear, or know evidence against him is normal.

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Response to pasto76 (Reply #75)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 12:38 AM

80. I beg to differ ...

The U.S. Constitution is the over-arching frame work for all law in the U.S.

Though I have not practiced before a military court, I am well versed in Constitutional law.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #80)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 10:31 AM

97. You need to talk to a JAG, because you are mistaken

About how military hearings and military courts work.

That was the whole point about Mary Surratt and her codefendants: civilians cannot be tried by a military court, but they were.

Military personnel do NOT have the same rights under military law as civilians have under civilian law.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #20)

Thu Sep 6, 2012, 07:49 PM

33. He'll be discharged after his conviction and before his execution

 

You may rely on it.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #20)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 03:57 AM

87. Discharge from the military would mean no trial.

The military couldn't try him, he wouldn't be in the military and because they've already charged him, the judge would have no choice but to dismiss the charges. The federal courts couldn't take it up because he's already been charged at the federal level.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #9)

Thu Sep 6, 2012, 07:43 PM

30. Since logic. Has to be tried before can be found guilty of a crime worthy of punishment & discharge.

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Response to Bernardo de La Paz (Reply #30)

Thu Sep 6, 2012, 07:59 PM

38. Not true ...

the defendant can be tried in abstencia; or can be tried without stepping into the court room.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #38)

Thu Sep 6, 2012, 08:07 PM

40. He is still military and subject to its rules and regulations. His protestations of faith are a sham

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Response to Bernardo de La Paz (Reply #40)

Thu Sep 6, 2012, 09:53 PM

54. A sham????

Says you!

Who are you to question someone else's sincerity of their faith?

We are trending dangerously close to the extremism that we abhor.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #54)

Thu Sep 6, 2012, 10:00 PM

56. A sham. He shaved before he went psycho. He can shave now without religious exemption. nt.

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Response to Bernardo de La Paz (Reply #56)

Thu Sep 6, 2012, 10:27 PM

58. Okay ...

what you did yesterday shall bind you to today ... without regard for what you did in the intervening period. Right?

Does not not matter that between the time he did the shooting and now, he has not shaved ... and that apparently was not a problem until he was to appear in court>

Doesn't the military's sudden insistence lead you to believe that this is more about the exercise of authority?

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #58)

Thu Sep 6, 2012, 10:52 PM

63. The military is all about the exercise of authority. Duh.

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Response to Bernardo de La Paz (Reply #63)

Thu Sep 6, 2012, 11:19 PM

66. Exercise of authority? ...

Or, to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States of America from all enemies, foreign and abroad?

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #66)

Thu Sep 6, 2012, 11:22 PM

68. Exercise of authority (military discipline) is how it protects and defends. Now just let it rest.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #66)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 03:43 AM

85. You mean

 

Foreign and domestic.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #38)

Thu Sep 6, 2012, 08:08 PM

41. It is true. He has to be tried, whether in absentia or not.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #38)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 10:33 AM

98. Absentia

Which attorneys generally know how to spell.

And, that is unconstitutional, as you well know. Precedence for that.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #2)

Thu Sep 6, 2012, 06:48 PM

6. He is breaking regs -- why should he get a pass?

About time. Shave away.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #6)

Thu Sep 6, 2012, 07:21 PM

10. See Response #9 n/t

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #10)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 10:20 AM

94. He is a service member in a military prison

Just like a prisoner in a civilian prison, he has to abide by regs. Military personnel are not allowed to wear beards, except for some Sikhs that have been given prior approval before formal enlistment.

Military personnel. Prisoner. He doesn't get to choose what he wants to do.

Service members can be charged and convicted for not obeying regs, btw, not just discharged.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #2)

Thu Sep 6, 2012, 07:09 PM

7. He is still in the army

as such military discipline applies... that includes clean shaven... that is why. If this was a civilian trial, whatever.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #7)

Thu Sep 6, 2012, 07:22 PM

11. See Response #10, Reference Response #9 n/t

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #11)

Thu Sep 6, 2012, 07:45 PM

31. Endless repitition does not make your point clearer or stronger. It makes it less convincing.

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Response to alp227 (Original post)

Thu Sep 6, 2012, 06:47 PM

5. good -- about time

He is not allowed to wear that beard. Against regs.

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Response to alp227 (Original post)

Thu Sep 6, 2012, 07:24 PM

14. And if.....?

http://www.google.com/imgres?hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=8bm&sa=X&rls=org.mozilla:en-USfficial&biw=1664&bih=889&tbm=isch&prmd=imvns&tbnid=F5G7GhZaVGLvsM:&imgrefurl=http://www.ndtv.com/article/world/sikh-soldier-completes-us-army-training-with-turban-on-65640&docid=sJRb_mph4IhggM&imgurl=&w=295&h=200&ei=fC9JUIq8HqqM2gXv5ICQBw&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=465&vpy=180&dur=34&hovh=160&hovw=236&tx=173&ty=46&sig=118056779401259670177&page=1&tbnh=153&tbnw=226&start=0&ndsp=26&ved=1t:429,r:1,s:0,i9


He's making an issue of it and the Judge sees it as a challenge to his authority.

It is.......but there are larger implications.

We're better than that....or we damn well better be if we want to pick our fights.



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Response to Red Mountain (Reply #14)

Thu Sep 6, 2012, 07:34 PM

23. Thank You ...

Sometimes ... rage blinds; even justifiable rage.

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Response to Red Mountain (Reply #14)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 10:36 AM

99. Sikhs ask for prior approval before formal enlistment

Because Sikh men HAVE to wear the beard and turban and ceremonial knife. It is a fundamental article of their faith, unlike Islam, which doesn't require a beard.

The military, at ant=y time, can say no, you cannot join.

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Response to alp227 (Original post)

Thu Sep 6, 2012, 07:24 PM

16. Don't get me wrong ...

I recognize the anger and sentiment surround this trial.

What he did deserves to be punished ... but that punishment, should never include forcing someone to violate their conscience.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #16)

Thu Sep 6, 2012, 07:28 PM

17. Could it be argued his "conscience" led to him shooting and killing?(n/m)

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Response to ProudToBeBlueInRhody (Reply #17)

Thu Sep 6, 2012, 07:38 PM

25. And other than ...

evidence of aggravation to be applied to sentencing, how is what led him to act, pertinent to his trial?

He is not being tried for what he thought; but rather, what he did.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #25)

Thu Sep 6, 2012, 07:51 PM

34. It's all manipulation.

One way or another, in his twisted mind of extremist thought, the same reason he doesn't want to shave his beard is the same reason he killed people.

I condemn ALL extremist religion, and refuse to kowtow to murderers who pervert religious beliefs to gain some sort of legal foothold.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #25)

Thu Sep 6, 2012, 07:51 PM

35. If people were tried only based on what they did and not what they thought, the term "hate crime"...

 

...would have no meaning.

Motivation is always relevant in criminal trials. Malice aforethought may be the only thing that makes killing a murder as opposed to manslaughter. Premeditation is the difference between two degrees of murder.

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #35)

Thu Sep 6, 2012, 09:58 PM

55. Bingo! ...

Doesn't that go to aggravating elements of a crime; rather than, whether the crime was committed?

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #25)

Thu Sep 6, 2012, 08:11 PM

44. I'd like to see him shaved and have his hands removed.

 

Why are you defending this piece of shit?

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Response to spayneuter (Reply #44)

Thu Sep 6, 2012, 10:11 PM

57. Because ...

I support the U.S. Constitution.

But don't get me, or my argument twisted. I am not defending him from being tried for the crimes for which he is accused. Hell no!

He is accused of killing and wounding a bunch of people ... He should be tried for that. Does the fact that these people were soldiers matter? Does the fact that he is an Islamist matter? I don't really know, but I hope not, though it appears at the root of many of those arguing.

My defense is rooting in my refusal to sit back and watch some butt chapped "Judge" trample on someone's Constitutional rights, even under these F'd up circumstances.

And face it ... this is all about a pissing match where one side is relying on legitimate/organizational authority and the other side is protected by the U.S. Constitution.

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Response to spayneuter (Reply #44)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 12:17 AM

73. To be fair

 

He's not defending the heinous acts Hassan committed, he's saying that Hassan should be allowed to keep his beard if it's in accordance with his religion. I personally think he should have to shave it.

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Response to spayneuter (Reply #44)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 01:27 AM

84. tHANK YOU.

 

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Response to spayneuter (Reply #44)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 03:21 PM

112. His defense lawyer gets paid, but otherwise,

I do not see any reason to support this P.O.S. at all.

Try...just try to imagine you had just shot and killed a bunch of people. And after that... you claim that your rights are infringed because they want you to shave your beard??!

That is deeply offensive.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #16)

Thu Sep 6, 2012, 07:33 PM

21. What conscience?

He killed 13 people and wounded 32 others. People like that have no conscience.

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Response to MicaelS (Reply #21)

Thu Sep 6, 2012, 07:41 PM

26. Conscience being another ...

term for the practice of his religion.

And please don't go to the "killing Americans/infidels is the practice of Islam" thing.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #26)

Thu Sep 6, 2012, 07:43 PM

29. WADR to his choice of religion, he's using the beard issue to delay the administration of justice

 

He's stalling.

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #29)

Thu Sep 6, 2012, 10:31 PM

59. Maybe ...

But should we err, constitutional, on the side of caution ... especially when the only thing lost by doing so is time?

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #59)

Thu Sep 6, 2012, 11:37 PM

69. I don't care much about what happens to Hassan as long as he's kept out of circulation

 

It would be nice to get him killed at the lowest possible cost or incarcerated for life, but those aren't going to happen.

I have accepted this.

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #69)

Thu Sep 6, 2012, 11:50 PM

71. Wow ...

But okay.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #26)

Thu Sep 6, 2012, 08:09 PM

43. Why not?...it's in their Holey Book.

 



They're just as homicidal as the crazies in the Xian bible.

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Response to spayneuter (Reply #43)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 11:33 AM

105. Nothing in Islam says he has to have a beard

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #105)

Sun Sep 9, 2012, 07:26 PM

115. Not that it matters to me, but the Xian bible has prohibitions against shaving...one

 

thing most contemporary TRVE BELIEVERS don't much care about any more, along with the abominations of eating shellfish and wearing clothes made of different materials. Where is the line beyond which some random religion's sacrament doesn't have to be respected? Marijuana and Peyote are important elements of some religions, which unfortunately for them, don't have a hell of a lot of political power. What if I invent a church that mandates walking in public with my penis hanging out and urinating on things that are yellow in color? Is there some rational reason to prohibit that?

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #16)

Thu Sep 6, 2012, 08:42 PM

47. If only his conscience were as staunchly against murdering innocents in cold blood

 

as it is against removing a few hairs.

Oh well, priorities.

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Response to 4th law of robotics (Reply #47)

Thu Sep 6, 2012, 10:38 PM

61. This argument ...

is not about him ... It's about US.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #61)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 09:54 AM

93. Yes and it says that to US it doesn't matter what sky fairies you worship

 

you will be held to the exact same standards as everyone else.

And I can live with that.

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Response to alp227 (Original post)

Thu Sep 6, 2012, 07:36 PM

24. People need to chill the fuck out

And by people I mean the judge. Beards don't matter. Forcibly shaving a prisoner DOES matter. It's a BIG fucking deal.

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Response to Fearless (Reply #24)

Thu Sep 6, 2012, 07:42 PM

28. Again ...

Sometimes ... rage blinds; even justifiable rage.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #28)

Thu Sep 6, 2012, 08:44 PM

48. If this is part of the military code he agreed to

 

and which all soldiers in the US military are held to should he be exempt because he claims his religion forbids it?

How is treating everyone the same discrimination but making exemptions for certain religions not?

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Response to 4th law of robotics (Reply #48)

Thu Sep 6, 2012, 10:36 PM

60. Research the term "accommodations" ...

in the context of discrimination.

It might open your eyes.

Hint: treating people "the same" is not the same as treating people fairly/equitably.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #60)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 12:29 AM

77. laughing here. "Accomodations" in the Army. As only the uninitiated can say...

I invite all of to enlist and actually serve this country. There is better than a 99% chance most of you commenting on this are not veterans.

Enlist, and then try and exercise your assumptions, speculations and "accomodations" once you are actually IN uniform. Then come back and tell us how it all went.

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Response to pasto76 (Reply #77)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 12:44 AM

81. I have no doubt ...

that the practice differs is extra-judicial; but that does not change the constitutional application.

"accommations" are allowed in the military, just as in civilian life, on a continuing basis. (see: beard allowances and Sikhs)

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #81)

Mon Sep 10, 2012, 06:37 PM

120. One fuckup doesn't justify all the others.

 

You're arguing for a particular exception for a particular religion, most of us are saying fuck the guy, he's no better than some asshole who takes a job as a pharmacist then refuses to dispense certain medications because it damages the tender sensibilities of his idiotic faith.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #60)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 09:54 AM

91. People who are not legal experts and have no knowledge of the military say one thing

 

people who are legal experts and do have a knowledge of the military say another thing.

I'll go with the later.

Hint: treating people "the same" is not the same as treating people fairly/equitably.


So the law shouldn't be blind? It should make exceptions for people based on their religion?

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Response to Fearless (Reply #24)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 12:35 PM

110. This

Who the hell cares about an other person's beard except as an exercise of institutional power? Which is wholly irrelevant in this case because the man is incarcerated and already subject to institutional power. The guy murdered a bunch of people and will be tried, as he should be. It disgusts me as an American and a human to see this use of power for the sake of power. The objection people have is not about this particular man. Leave aside the religion, military and even Constitutional issues. The government using its power to force a guy to do something as meaningless to the process as shaving his beard is just creepy. I used to think we were better than this, but that was a long time ago.

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Response to alp227 (Original post)

Thu Sep 6, 2012, 08:08 PM

42. I wonder why he didn't use the defense that his "religion" requires him to kill infidels?

 

(it does)...and I am not particularly picking on Islam, I find ALL religion to be vile, delusional and contrary to the good of humans. http://www.godisimaginary.com/i7.htm

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Response to alp227 (Original post)

Thu Sep 6, 2012, 08:26 PM

45. Having the beard will prejudice his trial. The military is going to be scrupulous in this case

and ensuring Hasan has every possible chance of a fair trial.

His peers in the military will judge him. Since its against military regs for a soldier to have a beard, Hasan having a beard will send the wrong message (that he's now a religious extremist) to his peers and that he won't follow standard regulations.

When you join the military you sign away a great deal of your rights, including the right to keep your own grooming standards. You must adhere to the standard in the military or face disciplinary procedures. Hasan knows that. He abided by that for many years without a problem.

Wearing a beard now will be prejudicial to his case and the Army is going to avoid the appearance of that at all costs, including forcible shaving.

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Response to riderinthestorm (Reply #45)

Thu Sep 6, 2012, 10:42 PM

62. I would probably agree ...

His beard would prejudice his "jury"; but not more than dark skin or internal genitalia in most jurisdictions.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #62)

Thu Sep 6, 2012, 11:44 PM

70. "I would probably agree" I doubt that.

Of course I could be wrong but seeing your posts in this thread on the subject I do not believe that my conclusion is wrong.

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Response to cstanleytech (Reply #70)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 12:05 AM

72. Why is it so difficult ...

to believe that I would agree that the prosecution's strategy would be to shave Hasan, even forcibly, in order to limit any claim that his appearance prejudiced the jury? That's standard strategy. I've argued jury prejudice, literally hundreds of time ... and I know how to defend the claim.

But I fear, their solution to one problem (i.e., jury bias) will create a much bigger problem (i.e., violation(s) of the Constitution).

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #72)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 09:54 AM

92. Why? Because you have used pretty much the same argument with everyone in this thread who

doesnt share your opinion so thats why I doubt you when you said "I would probably agree".

Edit: And btw http://law.freeadvice.com/government_law/military_law/military_us_constitution.htm

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Response to alp227 (Original post)

Thu Sep 6, 2012, 11:06 PM

64. "My religion requires me to wear a beard."

Yeah, guess what Nidal? Your religion also requires that you don't go around murdering your comrades in the name of Allah.

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Response to Pterodactyl (Reply #64)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 12:30 AM

78. Right. PLenty of regular church goers were denied access to religious services during our deployment

DUTY and MISSION come first. Beards are forbidden in a court martial. End of debate.

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Response to alp227 (Original post)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 10:58 AM

101. This creep gunned down 13 people and he is whining about his beard?

He has A LOT OF NERVE to being acting that way. He does no favors to muslims, either.

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Response to Quantess (Reply #101)

Fri Sep 7, 2012, 11:10 AM

103. Let's just refer to him as a "barbarian"

 

Literally.

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Response to alp227 (Original post)

Sat Sep 8, 2012, 05:18 PM

113. there is a good reason for making him shave the beard..

When he committed the crime he didn't have the beard but now he knows that with the beard witnesses will have difficulty identifying him.

He doesn't care about his religion, he just wants to screw with the prosecution's case.

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Response to alp227 (Original post)

Sun Sep 9, 2012, 07:48 PM

116. why is the judge making a big deal aboit it? does it really matter?

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Response to neovente (Reply #116)

Sun Sep 9, 2012, 08:53 PM

117. Military law makes it a big deal.

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Response to alp227 (Original post)

Mon Sep 10, 2012, 12:33 AM

118. Hopefully they use a rusty spoon...

 

and a high-alcohol-content after-shave.

Fuck that murderous pig-fucker.

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Response to alp227 (Original post)

Tue Sep 11, 2012, 05:00 PM

122. This POS is still in the military

and as such must obey lawful orders of his superior officers. He is
under the jurisdiction of the authority that convened his courts martial
and as such must first obey those orders then appeal them if he feels
they are wrong. He cannot, due to his faith, pick and choose what
orders he will or will not obey any more than he can select the menu
at the mess hall. My only problem with this matter is why has it taken
this long to bring him to trial?

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