Accused Colorado shooter has "mental illness," defense attorney says

...this shit will continue. If we used the money the NRA spends to keep gun violence easy and unimpeded to create community mental health screening and treatment programs, we would all be better off.

Maybe it is.

Or maybe it's as bogus as the "stand your ground" excuses.

Our prisons are stuffed full of paranoid schizophrenics, drug addicts, people with Narcissistic and Borderline Personality Disorders, etc.

I am taking the term mental illness as equivalent to mental incompetency for the sake of this discussion, but your point is correct; there is a difference.

But the university felt that it was no longer their perview when he dropped out of school.

There is no infrastructure for keeping track of those that have been suspected of violent tendencies. Look at the Virginia Tech shooter - he had a history of mental issues that was tracked by the university, but never escalated to law enforcement.

Even if people are screened, they still can't be prevented from getting a gun because of the NRA screaming that any restrictions on gun purchases are part of "the guvmints" planl take all our guns away so the black president can take over and round us all up in camps.

Until that message is countered effectively - screenings won't mean anything in terms of mentally ill people getting their hands on guns.

... he likes to shoot people.

-- Mal

...IF you're not wearing a uniform at the time..

.... this dude will NEVER see the outside of a prison again. Insane, not insane, faking or breaking. His life is over.

Only in America can you be absolved of killing so many, just because you are mentally unbalanced.

I might be liberal, but I have ZERO compassion for non-humans such as him. It is a waste of resources, to let him inhabit the planet any longer. I fail to see any purpose keeping him alive in some prison/institution for the rest of his life.

His continued presence in the world, only allows other cretins to aspire to his level. More money for the lawyers too.

Next let's discuss what you mean by "liberal". I'd be very interested to hear that definition.

Certainly not mentally ill enough to be incapable of surfing the net and building complex devices. He was capable of understanding and manipulating somewhat complex chemistry. He was able to methodically plot and execute a rather sophisticated plan of attack, even considering when the most people would be in the theater.

He was not non-functioning mentally ill.

Clinically insane people can nonetheless make complex plans, build complex devices, or engage in chemistry.

Inability to understand the consequences of one's actions, or to understand the difference between right and wrong- have no impact on ability to follow through with a complex plan.

I've known one schizophrenic and he said before he was diagnosed he used to see things that weren't there . He's now medicated but he refuses to drive a certain number of miles, cannot drink alcohol because it would mess with his medicine and lives with his mother and he's a 50 year old man.

James Holmes probably saw things in the audience to gun innocent people down. There are MANY schizophrenics like him but it's a shame that American gun laws make it so easy for the mentally ill to obtain these firearms. And there are many people, mostly men, who cannot admit to being mentally ill.

It was far, far more than seeing or imagining 'things' at the cinema. So far we don't even know if it's schizophrenia that his defense is claiming, so there's no way you can state there are many like him.

they suffer from severe, disabling delusions: they see things that aren't there, they hear voices that don't exist, they have extremely disordered, irrational thoughts. It is a crippling disease in that normal relationships are difficult if not impossible, and holding down a job is the same.

Schizophrenics are just as capable of detailed planning and execution as anybody else .

And there are MANY, MANY people just like him, except that THANKFULLY, few of them become violent. My mom wound up in all sorts of predicaments and legal trouble, but I thanked our lucky stars for decades that she never actually hurt anyone other than herself.

Seeing something in a cinema audience does not retrospectively place assault weapons and body armour in your car, carefully parked by the exit. From what we know of his life, he wasn't that disabled; he dropped out of the PhD program, but such programs are difficult.

People who are not violent are not 'just like him'. It was not spur-of-the-moment violence, either; carefully planned, including booby traps to kill neighbours and/or police officers at his apartment.

I don't doubt he has a mental illness. However, he needs to spend the rest of his life in prison or a hospital. I don't care which. There is no cure for shooting 70+ people. And if he ever does get released he will likely be murdered...

for him from those of us who can't tell the difference between illness and evil.

our home and kidnap me. Quite elaborate and well executed.

You are completely clueless when it comes to schizophrenics, so I strongly suggest you stop with this RIGHT NOW. You're just digging yourself a deeper hole, and are too supportive of other folks' anti-disability hate speech. I expect better from you.

The person that committed the large scale shooting in Colorado may be mentally ill. He may not be. In either scenario I believe that he should be confined in a prison or a hospital. In reality I think he would be in danger if he was released. Is that hateful?

DU (and, I'll be fair, society in general) is pretty good at the "wallow in ignorant stereotypes and cliches" aspect of thinking about mental illness, and is rather often in dire need of being educated at length, especially when something heats up the userbase enough that they start saying stupid-even-by-the-standards things.

This round of things is tamer than after Virginia Tech, at least, but it doesn't change the fact that a great many people here don't have the first fragment of a clue about mental illness or its physical, mental or legal aspects, and if they're offended at having things explained by those who do, I don't feel inclined to share their offense.

and its the internet. People who have moving dramatic stories are a dime a dozen and no one knows or needs to know if it is true. And simpy saying "my cousin had the same thing" seems to devolve logic and reason- creating the presumpton that all behaviors in a spectrum have to coincide with the familiar example that the speaker and the speaker only has access to. Its not really helpful when trying to convey an idea or make a point unless your point is to nail yourself to a digital cross.

People with personal experience with the mentally ill are far more qualified to comment on it than those who have only seen it on tv or read about it on the internet.

I suspect you are one of the latter.

I have read nearly everything there is on the subject of schizophrenia while trying to deal with my mom. I know a thing or two about it.

If you are telling the truth. It's the Internet. Anyone can say anything. It makes personal statements like yours worthless. Impeaeative facts that are applicable to all parties are more useful. And any personal attack or assumption is either useless or done for a posters amusement. At some point we could have a pissing contest over who has more experience with the mentally ill. I still think the shooter should remain in a Prison or a hospital for the rest of his life.

It's not worth one more minute of your time.

Kestrel is a long time and very respected member of DU. If you don't want to hear what he has to say then put him on ignore or go the fuck away.

I want to hear what everyone has to say. Unfortunately, as stated, personal references to an individual experience are not helpful in sorting out broader issues. In my opinion. You, perhaps, disagree? My point being that I believe the shooter should spend the rest of his life in jail or a hospital.

ORLY??????

If you don't want to hear about personal experiences as they relate to societal issues, I suggest you terminate your internet connection. Either that, or contact the Admin re whatever TOS violation said references of mine seem to violate in your warped little mind.

I'm not going to STFU in the meantime.

I'm a Michigan fan myself. I think the shooter should spend the rest of his life in prison or in a hospital.

and most the people on here pontificating about it have ZERO experience. They just spew nonsense and hate.

I'm here to set the record strait and correct falsehoods. If you have a problem with that, you need to go play elsewhere. I am not about to let lies and misinformation about the mentally ill go unchallenged.

I'm not going to STFU. And you can take your attitude and go pound sand.

including delusions of grandeur and possibly hallucinations. The individual had violent episodes in the past, unfortunately, but was able, but just barely, to hold down a job. And this was probably schizo-affective disorder combined with a couple of other conditions.

I also did mental hospital legal services when I was in law school. There I tried to help seriously mental ill individuals, including schizophrenics, find less restrictive placements. What I saw squares completely with what you write.

You are straight on, kestrel, and those that don't understand should walk a mile in your shoes.

FunkyLeprechaun was the first to mention schizophrenia, in #10. There's nothing about it in the article. It's pure speculation, based on no decent knowledge of the case, that schizophrenia is involved. In particular, the speculation that "James Holmes probably saw things in the audience to gun innocent people down" does not hold water, because this massacre was planned over weeks. If this is due to schizophrenia, then any hallucinations were over those weeks, and right before he left his apartment, when he carefully booby-trapped the apartment, and took a small arsenal with him. I have pointed this out, but you seem to, instead, insist that only you are qualified to diagnose Holmes, with schizophrenia, from our laughably small amount of information about him.

I have said nothing in this thread that is 'clueless' about schizophrenics, and you are jumping to a series of unwarranted conclusions about DUers in this thread. Ignore your anger and posts in the thread, and evaluate what others have actually said, before you throw accusations around.

based on his level of planning and forethought.

So we're both OK, then?

that the planning is impossible for a schizophrenic.

That sort of thinking is naive and dangerous.

but which would need the delusions or hallucinations to continue over the course of some weeks. The problem is that you are misreading what I said. Drop your anger, and your insults, and go back and read what I wrote.

it is not out of the question and is in fact quite likely.

You are just showing your ignorance of this field and bigotry against the disabled. Of course we have not all been granted access to his case file, we are speculating. But it is interesting to see which folks actually understand mental illness and those who have no clue. This is an area where so many have a lot to learn.

But your speculation is based on a lawyer's claim of mental illness. If you understand mental illness, you also understand you'd need a lot more than a claim by a lawyer whose job is to help his client with the law, and who doesn't have medical qualifications. We have not heard what any psychiatrist who has actually talked to Holmes has said.

I have not shown any bigotry. I think it's rude of you to suggest that. I don't think I have shown any ignorance either - no-one has been able to point out anything I've say that is 'ignorant'.

It's based on the observable facts of the case.

When you deal extensively with untreated schizophrenia, you can usually spot its victims a mile away based on what they say and do.

But do carry on with the bigotry. Wouldn't want to poke a hole in your little balloon.

and those who do that to people with that particular group of diseases should themselves be executed.

Thank you for labeling the mentally ill as "non-humans". On behalf of my family and my now-deceased paranoid schizophrenic mother, I wish you a schizophrenic family member of your own so you can gain some insight into this terrible DISEASE which causes people's thinking to become disordered by paranoid delusions.

Mental illness is a disability just like paraplegia, or intellectual impairment, or being an amputee. You comment is anti-disability HATE SPEECH and you need to apologize immediately or I won't rest until you and your ilk are banned.

horrible and the paranoid delusions were so extensive, and they were smart, and that seemed to make all of the delusions even more grand.

made decades of my and my sister's lives miserable (my dad died 32 years ago so he got away from it fairly early on). I never married, in large part because I didn't want a husband to have to deal with her, and didn't know for a long time if I might also wind up like that.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT and said: very nasty. No one is a fan of this guy (shooter) but fer fucksake...
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Differing opinion is allowed, agreed or not. I understand where the poster is coming from. Put him in the hospital the rest of his life. NEVER let him out. Not death. But, some dems agree with the death penalty. I do not.
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: It is not "anti-disability hate speech". It's an opinion on our legal system. I don't remember anyone using the 'cancer defense' after killing a room full of people.
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given

And to juror #5: It is indeed hate speech. Calling someone non-human because they are afflicted by a very disabling DISEASE is hate speech. You are showing your pathetic ignorance with the comparison to cancer with respect to killing. Cancer does not make you delusional.

NO ONE CHOOSES TO BE SCHIZOPHRENIC. IT JUST HAPPENS. AND IT RUINS THEIR LIFE, AND THE LIVES OF ALL THEIR LOVED ONES, WHETHER THEY KILL BECAUSE OF IT OR NOT.

Editting to add: Sometimes Cancer can make you hallucinate though. My friend father was dying of throat cancer and he would see animals everywhere. He would say things like " I know I am just seeing things again, but there is a squirrel sitting on your head" did you know there is a moose standing next to you?" and he would laugh and laugh.

that made him crazy. Lots of these same DUers would no doubt be clamoring for his being tortured to death on live TV, among other things, if he hadn't killed himself.

There's no indication that the poster believes Holmes to be mentally ill. And there's no evidence yet that Holmes's defense team is claiming schizophrenia.

My guess is that he's got severe enough schizophrenia to make Norman Bates seem like a balanced individual.

Sooooo.

If he is mentally ill, send him to the psych hospital for the rest of his life. Maybe they can clear up his head enough that he can start functioning again.

On the other hand, if he's not psychotic, and chose of sound mind to kill all those people from his free will, then we need to do this to him...

...i.e. has enough of a grasp of reality to be able to stand trial.

http://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-procedure/the-m-naghten-rule.html

by killing.
Wasting resources has nothing to do with this.
BTW many governments in the world today do not have death penalties.
At some point in his life he may recant his actions.
We are asked to forgive him, that's the hardest thing to do.

Do we have the luxury of "forgiving" someone who develops a brain tumor and one day suddenly has a seizure and wrecks his car and somebody dies in the accident?? Of course not. No forgiveness is necessary because the PERSON has done nothing wrong that they could have avoided doing. The disease is "responsible".

As for our pathetic mental healthcare system in this country, the ones who make it inadequate and unavailable are the only ones needing forgiveness, and they still aren't doing anything to deserve it. Perhaps someday we will have compassion for the mentally ill and provide them safe, secure situations where they can be medicated and so enjoy life, but we aren't even remotely there yet. Then and only then will I forgive.

But yes, you are correct, " The disease is responsible" and our mental health-care is woefully inadequate.
For some, medications won't work and they need to be given a safe and secure environment.

Par for the course with your anti-disability hate speech.

A cretin is someone born with congenital hypothyroidism. If they don't die very early in life, they wind up severely mentally retarded.

Are you also one of those morons who equates mental illness with intellectual underdevelopment??

You need to leave DU. This sort of attitude belongs on Storm Front, where you can gloat over how Hitler killed the "mental defectives" before he went after the Jews.

Is evil. Plain and simple. Don't kill people that pose no harm. Ever. Don't believe me please refer to the 115,000 dead civilians in Iraq.

But if he knew that what he was doing was wrong it will make no difference at all.

schizophrenics who act on their delusions by becoming violent.

MK Ultra'll do that to a person.

Fucking reptiles!

How could anyone who carries out such horrific acts not be mentally ill?

Somehow my comment took all sorts of tangents that had little to do with my intended point.

I really have no desire to get into a war of words over this.

My opinion is still that someone who carries out such a violent act as this, has no useful purpose in this world. Why should he take up hospital or jail space? Why should taxpayers be forced to basically treat and keep alive someone who has destroyed the lives of so many. And be clear, he has destroyed an incalculable number of lives. Not enough money to fund important social programs, but enough to medicate and "treat" him in an institution for perhaps the next 60 years.

And for what point? Are people like this usually destined for bigger and better things in life?

Thankfully the Nazi in Wisconsin saved us the trouble of hearing how he was mentally unstable.

Perhaps those who took issue with my comments should realize that I am not try to make comparisons between the mentally ill and non-humans. I merely meant the latter in reference to someone capable of such monstrous acts, who then stand behind a made up mental illness.

And I guess if someone who led the life this guy apparently led up until recent months, can mask this illness for his whole life, and then just snap, it is something I guess we should all be concerned about. Could someone we think is perfectly sane, have a mental illness buried deep inside?

The morality of executing because of behavior due to illness aside... the appeals process automatically kicks in because of the severity of the sentence, and usually takes several years to resolve one way or another. This costs a lot of money.


In sheer monetary terms, putting him to death is more costly.

character.

I would next like to ask what "useful purpose" you think the intellectually impaired serve??

"made up"?

And FYI, yes, someone we think is perfectly sane can indeed have a mental illness buried deep inside, and then suddenly have a psychotic break that shocks everyone around them. That DOES happen. I have personal experience with that.

means to live in a humanistic, liberal society (and its opposite):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Action_T4

I'm not being sarcastic when I tell you that I sincerely hope that you never have the experience of seeing a friend or loved one go into a death spiral because of a serious psychiatric disorder. I thought I knew what it was about until I had that experience beginning nearly one year ago. There is no deeper feeling of helplessness than watching someone you care about implode and refuse treatment.

As for people who are severely disturbed not having a "useful purpose in this world," I suggest that you read the story of Dr. Marsha Linehan, who invented the most effective therapy for what is now called Borderline Personality Disorder after spending years in mental hospitals with no hope for a decent life.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/23/health/23lives.html/?pagewanted=all

She never killed anyone, but like most people who have major mental health problems she did a lot of harm to herself.

mentally ill at all, let alone a schizophrenic immediate family member.

He has NO IDEA what he's talking about, and is completely devoid of any understanding of what it is like.

I have not known anybody who was schizophrenic or deteriorated rapidly in such sense, so I definitely cannot speak to what it's like. Again, I am not sure how it's being interpreted that I felt most people who are schizophrenic deserve death, or not to be treated.

As for whether this killer is faking it, there are many who have speculated whether that's the case, since the day after the shootings. People are arguing over whether the guy was just really smart, or a genius, but there is little question that he was quite intelligent.

To me, he is just evil. Whether he is insane is not relevant to the way I view him. I guess according to other posters, that taints me. I just feel somewhere along the way, the insanity defense has become a means of avoiding what in cases such as this, might be a likely death sentence. In Arizona, JL went from an almost certain "insanity" defense, to suddenly being 100% Sane, and able to make a plea bargain. The fact that the families, and especially Gabby, did not wish to endure a lengthy & traumatic trial, where I would have certainly expected to hear how JL was insane, and should therefore remain behind bars.

I guess like guns, this is another issue which causes division amongst Democrats. I have no doubt that guns are a big problem, and the power of the NRA, along with our own fractures, makes it almost impossible to change, at least for now. The repubs have their wall up, and come hell or high water, you ain't gonna raise the taxes on our wealthy "owners," nor are you gonna take away ANY guns from the citizens, who by gum are guaranteed full access via the Constitution. Which to them, aside from that, is just "a piece of paper."

You also seem stuck on the whole "intelligent therefore can't be mentally ill" thing. If you can't be swayed by the mountains of evidence pointing out that it's not a one-or-the-other thing, I don't know what could convince you.

Also, if you think insanity defenses are a get-out-of-punishment-free card, you don't know that much about those, either.

You need to spend some time educating yourself before going back to opining on stuff like this.

...mentally ill. The only thing he MIGHT be trying to "fake" would be mental incompetence, which could make him unfit to stand trial and result in him being kept locked up in a government psychiatric hospital instead of a prison.

It makes no difference to the rest of us - He's been removed from society and is no longer a danger to anyone other than himself.

Here is some basic information about insanity defenses. This is applicable in Colorado.

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/M%27Naghten+Rule

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%27Naghten_rules