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yardwork

(61,539 posts)
Thu Aug 9, 2012, 05:05 PM Aug 2012

Temple gunman's extremism grew in military

Source: wral.com

Fayetteville, N.C. — Wade Michael Page's white-supremacist leanings coalesced during his six years in the Army, including time at Fort Bragg, according to a researcher who knew the man who killed six people when he opened fire inside a religious temple over the weekend.

Pete Simi, a professor of criminology at the University of Nebraska at Omaha, said Thursday that he spent nearly three years studying a group of neo-Nazi skinheads in southern California a decade ago and came to know Page very well.

...

Page told Simi that said he had some interaction with skinheads as a youth in Colorado, but he never identified himself with the movement until he was in the military. There, he met like-minded soldiers and began reading supremacist literature.

White serving in a psychological operations unit at Fort Bragg, Simi said, Page got to know Pvt. James Burmeister, who was convicted of targeting a black couple on a Fayetteville street and killing them in December 1995.





Read more: http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/11410975/



Many of us speculated that Page's time in the Army - particularly his experience in Psy-Ops - was relevant. It looks like we were right. The article goes on to state that the Army recognized that they had a problem with white supremacists at Ft. Bragg and kicked a bunch of them out, but not before some friends of Page's committed a racially-motivated murder.

This is really sad. The question for us all is - is it still going on? Are there still cells of white supremacists in our armed forces? If so, what can we do about it?

42 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Temple gunman's extremism grew in military (Original Post) yardwork Aug 2012 OP
The important part -- Nuclear Unicorn Aug 2012 #1
correct pasto76 Aug 2012 #8
I've heard stories of urban gang-bangers enlisting Nuclear Unicorn Aug 2012 #11
Well ... 1StrongBlackMan Aug 2012 #2
If I remember correctly the military came down fairly hard on those idiots. (nt) Posteritatis Aug 2012 #4
As I recall it ... 1StrongBlackMan Aug 2012 #16
The "SS," I'm told stands for "Scout Sniper;" not the infamous Nazi group Nuclear Unicorn Aug 2012 #6
And the SS ... 1StrongBlackMan Aug 2012 #17
I would be reluctant to leap to conclusions based on a single photo Nuclear Unicorn Aug 2012 #20
Okay. But ... 1StrongBlackMan Aug 2012 #21
I wouldn't. JoeyT Aug 2012 #31
This from the article - DURHAM D Aug 2012 #3
He did mention that it was not rampant ... 1StrongBlackMan Aug 2012 #18
everybody seems pretty eager to equate this maniac with the Army. There's a shocker pasto76 Aug 2012 #5
My husband is a vet and I'm proud of who he is and those he served beside. n/t Nuclear Unicorn Aug 2012 #9
Did he use psy ops to kill those people? I don't know. Do you? yardwork Aug 2012 #10
thank you for altering the headline pasto76 Aug 2012 #29
Both headlines were posted directly from the source. The source changed the headline. yardwork Aug 2012 #34
I've seen some of the regulations you have to comply with. AtheistCrusader Aug 2012 #13
exactly my point. What regulations are you speaking of? shaving? saluting officers? be specific pasto76 Aug 2012 #23
It's called a joke. AtheistCrusader Aug 2012 #25
The problem is there were other shithead fuckbags there to indoctrinate him KamaAina Aug 2012 #15
true/ the army is a slice of america. If a type of person is out there, they are in the army too pasto76 Aug 2012 #22
Point taken. KamaAina Aug 2012 #24
he was a shitbag, and not representative of the WHOLE Army fascisthunter Aug 2012 #27
+1 LiberalLoner Aug 2012 #28
Thank you. PavePusher Aug 2012 #35
some more links: Hate groups have uneasy history with military base maddezmom Aug 2012 #7
Thank you for that research and the links. yardwork Aug 2012 #12
To Help: jimspice Aug 2012 #14
The military has everything from neo-Nazis to Crips and Bloods hack89 Aug 2012 #19
There are of course still cells of white supremacists in the military, kestrel91316 Aug 2012 #26
I keep reading about extremist right-wing Christians taking over the military. yardwork Aug 2012 #38
My dad was a career USAF officer from the early 50s to the late 70s. kestrel91316 Aug 2012 #40
This is exactly what I've been reading. yardwork Aug 2012 #42
The military has a huge problem with dominionists too. There's a pretty big overlap between the LeftyMom Aug 2012 #30
No big surprise Blue_Tires Aug 2012 #32
There was an ongoing problem with lax enforcement of recruiting rules during the Bush administration Vurz Aug 2012 #33
I remember that story about the military also lunatica Aug 2012 #39
The army turned my cousin from an Obama supporter into a Bither nutcase... Odin2005 Aug 2012 #36
Can you give us more details on this? yardwork Aug 2012 #37
For one thing, the fundies turned the AF Academy into a fundie indoctrination center for kestrel91316 Aug 2012 #41

Nuclear Unicorn

(19,497 posts)
1. The important part --
Thu Aug 9, 2012, 05:11 PM
Aug 2012
"...the Army recognized that they had a problem with white supremacists at Ft. Bragg and kicked a bunch of them out..."


If I understand hubby correctly, a tattoo of the number eighty-eight is a bar to enlistment because the letter H is the 8th letter of the alphabet so 88 = HH = Hiel Hitler. The US military has no use or desire for such monsters.

pasto76

(1,589 posts)
8. correct
Thu Aug 9, 2012, 05:19 PM
Aug 2012

the army has no desire for them. Or anybody else who doesnt pull their weight. Unfortunately, they often get in. There are many many tats that will disqualify you.

Nuclear Unicorn

(19,497 posts)
11. I've heard stories of urban gang-bangers enlisting
Thu Aug 9, 2012, 05:24 PM
Aug 2012

Same issue. People the military has no desire to train or accept disguise who they are and join to exploit the services. One of my husband's best friends was openly known to be gay BEFORE Don't Ask, Don't Tell was repealed. He was accepted as a friend and soldier because that is who he was.

 

1StrongBlackMan

(31,849 posts)
2. Well ...
Thu Aug 9, 2012, 05:14 PM
Aug 2012
This is really sad. The question for us all is - is it still going on? Are there still cells of white supremacists in our armed forces?


I guess the answer might conflict with the official explanation of the brave, young; but misguided, marines to were photographed posing in front of the "SS" symbol, huh?
 

1StrongBlackMan

(31,849 posts)
16. As I recall it ...
Thu Aug 9, 2012, 06:17 PM
Aug 2012

the military said they did know what the lightning bolts stood for and told them not to do it again.

But I might be wrong.

Nuclear Unicorn

(19,497 posts)
20. I would be reluctant to leap to conclusions based on a single photo
Thu Aug 9, 2012, 06:25 PM
Aug 2012

Did the unit or schools teach racists ideas? Did they prevent racial and religious minorities from joining their units?

We can call it poorly thought-out and dumb but unless something more substantial comes out I'm reluctant to call it racist.

 

1StrongBlackMan

(31,849 posts)
21. Okay. But ...
Thu Aug 9, 2012, 06:29 PM
Aug 2012
Did the unit or schools teach racists ideas? Did they prevent racial and religious minorities from joining their units?



Or was someone in the unit (with knowledge of the symbol) able to adopt it because their superiors shared ws views?

Who knows.

JoeyT

(6,785 posts)
31. I wouldn't.
Fri Aug 10, 2012, 12:43 AM
Aug 2012

This is the picture in question:



Can you think of anywhere that flag is being sold that it might be called a "Scout sniper" flag?

A woman found the place that sells the actual flag they're standing in front of:

http://freethoughtblogs.com/rodda/2012/02/10/those-marines-bought-an-ss-flag-without-knowing-what-it-was-seriously-thats-your-excuse/

That article also answers your other questions.

DURHAM D

(32,607 posts)
3. This from the article -
Thu Aug 9, 2012, 05:15 PM
Aug 2012

"Page told Simi that the white-power movement "wasn't rampant" in the Army but added that he "didn't have to conceal it" from superiors."

Hope something has been done about this.

 

1StrongBlackMan

(31,849 posts)
18. He did mention that it was not rampant ...
Thu Aug 9, 2012, 06:21 PM
Aug 2012

but he also said that given the size of the military, they (ws) could number in the hundreds or even thousands. He went on to say it wouldn't time many with the military-provided training and inclination, to do a late of damage.

pasto76

(1,589 posts)
5. everybody seems pretty eager to equate this maniac with the Army. There's a shocker
Thu Aug 9, 2012, 05:18 PM
Aug 2012

thank you all for doing your part to perpetuate the stigma. To the public, crazy equals army (military since most of you dont know any differently).

there is nothing "relevant" about his experience in psy ops. did he use psy ops to kill these people?


Think carefully before you add to this stigma. you are talking about ME. you are talking about the guys to whom I literally owe my life. You are talking about many thousands of soldiers who have bourne the brunt of a culture that places astronomical demands on them, and that same society stands by and does almost nothing to address our issues.

a soldier embodies VALUES. the army values. There is nothing ARMY about being a skinhead. You are not part of the TEAM - black soldiers saved my ass more than once, and I couldnt care less what color they are.

This guy and others like him are dead weight wearing the same uniform. The problem isnt his time in the army. The problem is he was a shithead fuckbag.

yardwork

(61,539 posts)
10. Did he use psy ops to kill those people? I don't know. Do you?
Thu Aug 9, 2012, 05:23 PM
Aug 2012

I linked directly to a published article, and my comments were carefully considered. I think it is completely fair and appropriate and even essential that we consider whether or not Page's Army experience, notably his training in psychological warfare, is relevant to his massacre of innocent people.

I'm sorry that you take this as a personal insult. It is not intended that way. I have great admiration for the many men and women who serve our country with honor and courage. That doesn't mean that we should turn a blind eye to problems. As a citizen of the U.S. it is my responsibility to ask questions about the military that my tax dollars support. That is not intended with disrespect. Quite the opposite.

pasto76

(1,589 posts)
29. thank you for altering the headline
Thu Aug 9, 2012, 09:15 PM
Aug 2012

being a veteran, I have a much better idea of what the army is actually like, and my speculations, as are yours for your fields, much more educated than most americans.

yardwork

(61,539 posts)
34. Both headlines were posted directly from the source. The source changed the headline.
Fri Aug 10, 2012, 10:39 AM
Aug 2012

Within minutes of my posting the OP the source - wral.com - changed the headline, so I immediately updated this OP to reflect the new headline.

pasto76

(1,589 posts)
23. exactly my point. What regulations are you speaking of? shaving? saluting officers? be specific
Thu Aug 9, 2012, 06:33 PM
Aug 2012

short one liners like that do exactly what I mean; perpetuate the stigma.

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
25. It's called a joke.
Thu Aug 9, 2012, 07:29 PM
Aug 2012

If I actually meant crazy as in 'lunatic', that post would be a TOS violation.

How about not being allowed to smoke near a burn barrel, because you aren't allowed to smoke near any equipment?

I know a lot of people from all branches of military service, some from combat zones, some from office buildings. I've never met an actually crazy one yet.

 

KamaAina

(78,249 posts)
15. The problem is there were other shithead fuckbags there to indoctrinate him
Thu Aug 9, 2012, 05:31 PM
Aug 2012

disgracing your uniform as they did so.

 

KamaAina

(78,249 posts)
24. Point taken.
Thu Aug 9, 2012, 06:37 PM
Aug 2012

But the Army should be (and is, apparently) taking steps to see that white supremacists and the like don't recruit other soldiers to their cause.

maddezmom

(135,060 posts)
7. some more links: Hate groups have uneasy history with military base
Thu Aug 9, 2012, 05:18 PM
Aug 2012

Hate groups have uneasy history with military base

Milwaukee Journal Sentinel
Published: August 7, 2012
A billboard along the main road into Fort Bragg, N.C., in the mid-1990s read: "Enough! Let's start taking back America." Below the slogan was the telephone number for the National Alliance, a white-supremacist group.

Wade Michael Page, who killed six on Sunday at the Sikh Temple of Wisconsin, must have driven by that billboard dozens of times while stationed at the base back then. It was paid for by an active-duty soldier at Fort Bragg who served as a recruiter for the hate group.

Page was at Fort Bragg in 1995 when two neo-Nazi soldiers from the 82nd Airborne killed a black couple in nearby Fayetteville, according to a former soldier who served with him.

At the time, Page was assigned to a unit that specialized in Latin American affairs. Many members were fluent in Spanish, but Page wanted only to learn German, said Fred Allen Lucas, 43, who served with him in A Company, 9th Psychological Operations Battalion.

Once, while on temporary duty in Germany, Page got drunk and started goose-stepping down the street Nazi-style.

more:http://www.stripes.com/mobile/news/us/hate-groups-have-uneasy-history-with-military-base-1.185075

Sikh temple shooter promoted extremist views during his Army years

OAK CREEK, Wis. — The gunman in the Sikh temple shooting here was steeped in white supremacy during his Army days and spouted his racist views on the job as a soldier, according to some who served with him.

“It’s kind of amazing he was able to stay in, especially given what was going on around base at the time,” said Fred Lucas, a former soldier who served with Page at Fort Bragg, N.C., in the 9th Psychological Operations Battalion.

¬snip¬

Page, a soldier from 1992 to 1998, did little to hide his white-supremacist beliefs, Lucas said, but he could not have predicted that Page would act out violently.

Among the open signs of Page’s extremism were his tattoos. Officials at Fort Bragg — where 21 soldiers were identified as white supremacists after a skinhead soldier was convicted of murdering a black couple in 1995 — conducted tattoo inspections to track down anybody with extremist markings. Yet a tattoo on Page’s left shoulder referencing the 14-word mantra of skinheads apparently went unnoticed.

The credo reads: “We must secure the existence of our people and a future for white children.”

Page drove a Volkswagen Thing, a boxy vehicle resembling a Nazi staff car, that he had repainted from orange to red. With white trim and black tires, it mirrored the colors of the Nazi flag, Lucas said.

more: http://www.stripes.com/mobile/news/sikh-temple-shooter-promoted-extremist-views-during-his-army-years-1.185085

Exclusive: Interview With Professor Who Extensively Studied Alleged Wisconsin Mass

Last edited Tue Aug 7, 2012, 09:43 AM USA/ET - Edit history (2)

Center for the Study of Hate and Extremism Advisory Board member and University of Nebraska at Omaha Criminology professor Pete Simi had extensive long term contact with alleged Wisconsin mass killer Wade Michael Page when he was conducting a multi-year study of the hate rock music scene in Southern California. Page was a prominent figure in the hate rock world who had links to different hate groups. Dr. Simi recently co-authored (with Robert Futrell, University of Nevada, Las Vegas) the book American Swastika: Inside the White Power Movement's Hidden Spaces of Hate. His research on extremist movements has been funded by the National Institute of Justice, Department of Homeland Security, and the Harry Frank Guggenheim Foundation. The interview was conducted this morning by Center director Prof. Brian Levin, who has also studied hate rock and was formerly the Associate Director of the Southern Poverty Law Center's Klanwatch and Militia Task Force in the 1990s. Both will appear on MSNBC's Hardball with Chris Matthews this evening at 7PM EST

When did you first meet Wade Page and what was he generally like at that time?

I met Page in 2001 while I was conducting fieldwork studying white supremacist groups in Southern California. Page had recently moved to Orange County, California and was living with another research subject I already knew. Wade was immediately friendly and didn't seem to have any problems with me hanging around doing research. He actually seemed to enjoy talking about his beliefs and at times I think he hoped to convert me. There were times when he was a little quiet and awkward but other times he seemed to loosen up and would joke around a lot. He definitely had a drinking problem and would pass out regularly. His heavy drinking made it hard for him to get to work.

Who was Page affiliated with and what types of activities was he involved in?

When I first met Page he was new to Southern California but he'd been around the white supremacist movement for a while. In Southern California he was spending time with a lot of different groups and was very involved in the white power music scene playing guitar in bands and trying to help promote shows. He had contacts with the National Alliance, Hammerskin Nation, different Klan groups, Volksfront and various other groups active in the white supremacist movement.

more: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/brian-levin-jd/exclusive-interview-with_b_1751181.html
In 1992 Fort Bragg was also a recruiting centre for white hate groups including the National

¬snip¬

But at the time Fort Bragg was also a recruiting centre for white hate groups including the National Alliance, once regarded as one of the most effective such groups and also among the most extreme because it openly glorified Adolf Hitler. The Military Law Review at the time reported that National Alliance flags were openly hung in barracks and, out of uniform, soldiers sported neo-Nazi symbols and played records about killing blacks and Jews.

"White supremacists have a natural attraction to the army," the Military Law Review said. "They often see themselves as warriors, superbly fit and well-trained in survivalist techniques and weapons and poised for the ultimate conflict with various races."

In 1995, two soldiers with the 82nd Airborne murdered a black couple in Fayetteville, the city neighbouring Fort Bragg, in a racially motivated attack.

Others serving at the base during the 1990s were arrested for hoarding ammunition in preparation for an attack on businesses, including media organisations, owned by African Americans and Jews. Soldiers were also arrested as members of skinhead gangs involved in assaults.

more:http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/aug/07/wade-michael-page-wisconsin-shooting?newsfeed=true

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021087302#post4

yardwork

(61,539 posts)
12. Thank you for that research and the links.
Thu Aug 9, 2012, 05:26 PM
Aug 2012

I knew that this would not be a popular thread when I posted it. I'm not going to be intimidated into not asking questions about a military that I help support and pay for. It's my obligation as a citizen to ask questions. More of us need to ask questions.

jimspice

(2 posts)
14. To Help:
Thu Aug 9, 2012, 05:29 PM
Aug 2012

Our friends at the Sikh Temple of Wisconsin obviously have a lot on their minds right now. To ease their burden somewhat, the Interfaith Conference of Greater Milwaukee has stepped forward to accept online donations to the temple’s Victims Memorial Fund at http://www.SikhHelp.org/. Contributions are processed securely online through the ICoGM PayPal account, and all proceeds will be transferred directly to the temple. The ICoGM is a tax exempt 501(c)(3) organization, so your donation may be claimed as a charitable contribution for tax purposes.

If you prefer to donate the old fashioned way, check or money order can be sent via snail mail to:

Victim Memorial Fund c/o Sikh Temple of Wisconsin

7512 S. Howell Ave.

Oak Creek, WI 53154

You can also help spread the work by “Liking” and “Sharing” the SikhHelp.org Facebook page at http://www.facebook.com/SikhHelp

hack89

(39,171 posts)
19. The military has everything from neo-Nazis to Crips and Bloods
Thu Aug 9, 2012, 06:24 PM
Aug 2012

it does a pretty good job of weeding them out but a young man with a clean record can slip through the cracks if they stay on the straight and narrow while on active duty.

 

kestrel91316

(51,666 posts)
26. There are of course still cells of white supremacists in the military,
Thu Aug 9, 2012, 07:53 PM
Aug 2012

because the higher ups find them useful idiots in wartime I'm sure. And there are also likely cells of radical fundies. Heck, the fundies are filling the officer ranks of the USAF and have been trying to drum a friend's husband out on some BS over a verbal argument with a civilian. The husband is PAGAN. They don't like that, but can't get rid of him for that so they tried to trump up this other BS.

yardwork

(61,539 posts)
38. I keep reading about extremist right-wing Christians taking over the military.
Sat Aug 11, 2012, 10:46 AM
Aug 2012

I've read articles quoting older servicemen who say that things started changing drastically in the 2000s.

 

kestrel91316

(51,666 posts)
40. My dad was a career USAF officer from the early 50s to the late 70s.
Sat Aug 11, 2012, 11:46 AM
Aug 2012

He was less religious than my cats. If he were alive, I suspect he would be completely appalled by the religious influence on his employer.

LeftyMom

(49,212 posts)
30. The military has a huge problem with dominionists too. There's a pretty big overlap between the
Thu Aug 9, 2012, 10:17 PM
Aug 2012

groups, though there are token minorities who are prominent dominionists, they're nearly homeopathic in their concentration in the overall group.

Blue_Tires

(55,445 posts)
32. No big surprise
Fri Aug 10, 2012, 03:17 AM
Aug 2012

The superiors at Bragg knew this was a problem even before McVeigh became a household name

Vurz

(7 posts)
33. There was an ongoing problem with lax enforcement of recruiting rules during the Bush administration
Fri Aug 10, 2012, 03:51 AM
Aug 2012

I remember reading a report on the laxity being shown on recruiting rules during the Bush administration. This isn't a link to that article, although is mentions some of the problems they were having : http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-report/browse-all-issues/2006/summer/a-few-bad-men

lunatica

(53,410 posts)
39. I remember that story about the military also
Sat Aug 11, 2012, 11:15 AM
Aug 2012

If I recall correctly they were having a hard time recruiting volunteers when the wars got uglier than they thought with the televised beheadings of Americans and other civilians. It wasn't some secret but I think most people didn't know about it. I'm sure I learned about it right here on DU.

Welcome to DU

Odin2005

(53,521 posts)
36. The army turned my cousin from an Obama supporter into a Bither nutcase...
Fri Aug 10, 2012, 10:50 PM
Aug 2012

...who takes anything from Alex Jones as gospel truth, he was also stationed at Ft. Bragg when he wasn't serving in Iraq. There must be a nasty clique of RW nuts acting as a bad influence of new servicemen.

yardwork

(61,539 posts)
37. Can you give us more details on this?
Sat Aug 11, 2012, 10:45 AM
Aug 2012

I read about white supremacists in the military. I read about extremist right-wing Christians in the military. What's going on?

 

kestrel91316

(51,666 posts)
41. For one thing, the fundies turned the AF Academy into a fundie indoctrination center for
Sat Aug 11, 2012, 11:49 AM
Aug 2012

quite a while, though some heroic lawsuits seem to have brought that to an end. But the products of that place are now well up in the ranks. The dominionists want to control the nukes. That's what the whole thing is about. And they want a military coup a la The Handmaid's Tale.

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