Temple gunman's extremism grew in military
Source: wral.com
Fayetteville, N.C. Wade Michael Page's white-supremacist leanings coalesced during his six years in the Army, including time at Fort Bragg, according to a researcher who knew the man who killed six people when he opened fire inside a religious temple over the weekend.
Pete Simi, a professor of criminology at the University of Nebraska at Omaha, said Thursday that he spent nearly three years studying a group of neo-Nazi skinheads in southern California a decade ago and came to know Page very well.
...
Page told Simi that said he had some interaction with skinheads as a youth in Colorado, but he never identified himself with the movement until he was in the military. There, he met like-minded soldiers and began reading supremacist literature.
White serving in a psychological operations unit at Fort Bragg, Simi said, Page got to know Pvt. James Burmeister, who was convicted of targeting a black couple on a Fayetteville street and killing them in December 1995.
Read more: http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/11410975/
Many of us speculated that Page's time in the Army - particularly his experience in Psy-Ops - was relevant. It looks like we were right. The article goes on to state that the Army recognized that they had a problem with white supremacists at Ft. Bragg and kicked a bunch of them out, but not before some friends of Page's committed a racially-motivated murder.
This is really sad. The question for us all is - is it still going on? Are there still cells of white supremacists in our armed forces? If so, what can we do about it?
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)If I understand hubby correctly, a tattoo of the number eighty-eight is a bar to enlistment because the letter H is the 8th letter of the alphabet so 88 = HH = Hiel Hitler. The US military has no use or desire for such monsters.
pasto76
(1,589 posts)the army has no desire for them. Or anybody else who doesnt pull their weight. Unfortunately, they often get in. There are many many tats that will disqualify you.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)Same issue. People the military has no desire to train or accept disguise who they are and join to exploit the services. One of my husband's best friends was openly known to be gay BEFORE Don't Ask, Don't Tell was repealed. He was accepted as a friend and soldier because that is who he was.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)I guess the answer might conflict with the official explanation of the brave, young; but misguided, marines to were photographed posing in front of the "SS" symbol, huh?
Posteritatis
(18,807 posts)1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)the military said they did know what the lightning bolts stood for and told them not to do it again.
But I might be wrong.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)In the form of lighning bolts was merely a coincidence, right?
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)Did the unit or schools teach racists ideas? Did they prevent racial and religious minorities from joining their units?
We can call it poorly thought-out and dumb but unless something more substantial comes out I'm reluctant to call it racist.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Or was someone in the unit (with knowledge of the symbol) able to adopt it because their superiors shared ws views?
Who knows.
JoeyT
(6,785 posts)This is the picture in question:
Can you think of anywhere that flag is being sold that it might be called a "Scout sniper" flag?
A woman found the place that sells the actual flag they're standing in front of:
http://freethoughtblogs.com/rodda/2012/02/10/those-marines-bought-an-ss-flag-without-knowing-what-it-was-seriously-thats-your-excuse/
That article also answers your other questions.
DURHAM D
(32,607 posts)"Page told Simi that the white-power movement "wasn't rampant" in the Army but added that he "didn't have to conceal it" from superiors."
Hope something has been done about this.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)but he also said that given the size of the military, they (ws) could number in the hundreds or even thousands. He went on to say it wouldn't time many with the military-provided training and inclination, to do a late of damage.
pasto76
(1,589 posts)thank you all for doing your part to perpetuate the stigma. To the public, crazy equals army (military since most of you dont know any differently).
there is nothing "relevant" about his experience in psy ops. did he use psy ops to kill these people?
Think carefully before you add to this stigma. you are talking about ME. you are talking about the guys to whom I literally owe my life. You are talking about many thousands of soldiers who have bourne the brunt of a culture that places astronomical demands on them, and that same society stands by and does almost nothing to address our issues.
a soldier embodies VALUES. the army values. There is nothing ARMY about being a skinhead. You are not part of the TEAM - black soldiers saved my ass more than once, and I couldnt care less what color they are.
This guy and others like him are dead weight wearing the same uniform. The problem isnt his time in the army. The problem is he was a shithead fuckbag.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)yardwork
(61,539 posts)I linked directly to a published article, and my comments were carefully considered. I think it is completely fair and appropriate and even essential that we consider whether or not Page's Army experience, notably his training in psychological warfare, is relevant to his massacre of innocent people.
I'm sorry that you take this as a personal insult. It is not intended that way. I have great admiration for the many men and women who serve our country with honor and courage. That doesn't mean that we should turn a blind eye to problems. As a citizen of the U.S. it is my responsibility to ask questions about the military that my tax dollars support. That is not intended with disrespect. Quite the opposite.
pasto76
(1,589 posts)being a veteran, I have a much better idea of what the army is actually like, and my speculations, as are yours for your fields, much more educated than most americans.
yardwork
(61,539 posts)Within minutes of my posting the OP the source - wral.com - changed the headline, so I immediately updated this OP to reflect the new headline.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)It would be wierd if ya'll WEREN'T crazy.
pasto76
(1,589 posts)short one liners like that do exactly what I mean; perpetuate the stigma.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)If I actually meant crazy as in 'lunatic', that post would be a TOS violation.
How about not being allowed to smoke near a burn barrel, because you aren't allowed to smoke near any equipment?
I know a lot of people from all branches of military service, some from combat zones, some from office buildings. I've never met an actually crazy one yet.
KamaAina
(78,249 posts)disgracing your uniform as they did so.
pasto76
(1,589 posts)KamaAina
(78,249 posts)But the Army should be (and is, apparently) taking steps to see that white supremacists and the like don't recruit other soldiers to their cause.
fascisthunter
(29,381 posts)PavePusher
(15,374 posts)I'd have said that a lot less diplomatically.
maddezmom
(135,060 posts)Hate groups have uneasy history with military base
Milwaukee Journal Sentinel
Published: August 7, 2012
A billboard along the main road into Fort Bragg, N.C., in the mid-1990s read: "Enough! Let's start taking back America." Below the slogan was the telephone number for the National Alliance, a white-supremacist group.
Wade Michael Page, who killed six on Sunday at the Sikh Temple of Wisconsin, must have driven by that billboard dozens of times while stationed at the base back then. It was paid for by an active-duty soldier at Fort Bragg who served as a recruiter for the hate group.
Page was at Fort Bragg in 1995 when two neo-Nazi soldiers from the 82nd Airborne killed a black couple in nearby Fayetteville, according to a former soldier who served with him.
At the time, Page was assigned to a unit that specialized in Latin American affairs. Many members were fluent in Spanish, but Page wanted only to learn German, said Fred Allen Lucas, 43, who served with him in A Company, 9th Psychological Operations Battalion.
Once, while on temporary duty in Germany, Page got drunk and started goose-stepping down the street Nazi-style.
more:http://www.stripes.com/mobile/news/us/hate-groups-have-uneasy-history-with-military-base-1.185075
Sikh temple shooter promoted extremist views during his Army years
OAK CREEK, Wis. The gunman in the Sikh temple shooting here was steeped in white supremacy during his Army days and spouted his racist views on the job as a soldier, according to some who served with him.
Its kind of amazing he was able to stay in, especially given what was going on around base at the time, said Fred Lucas, a former soldier who served with Page at Fort Bragg, N.C., in the 9th Psychological Operations Battalion.
¬snip¬
Page, a soldier from 1992 to 1998, did little to hide his white-supremacist beliefs, Lucas said, but he could not have predicted that Page would act out violently.
Among the open signs of Pages extremism were his tattoos. Officials at Fort Bragg where 21 soldiers were identified as white supremacists after a skinhead soldier was convicted of murdering a black couple in 1995 conducted tattoo inspections to track down anybody with extremist markings. Yet a tattoo on Pages left shoulder referencing the 14-word mantra of skinheads apparently went unnoticed.
The credo reads: We must secure the existence of our people and a future for white children.
Page drove a Volkswagen Thing, a boxy vehicle resembling a Nazi staff car, that he had repainted from orange to red. With white trim and black tires, it mirrored the colors of the Nazi flag, Lucas said.
more: http://www.stripes.com/mobile/news/sikh-temple-shooter-promoted-extremist-views-during-his-army-years-1.185085
Exclusive: Interview With Professor Who Extensively Studied Alleged Wisconsin Mass
Last edited Tue Aug 7, 2012, 09:43 AM USA/ET - Edit history (2)
Center for the Study of Hate and Extremism Advisory Board member and University of Nebraska at Omaha Criminology professor Pete Simi had extensive long term contact with alleged Wisconsin mass killer Wade Michael Page when he was conducting a multi-year study of the hate rock music scene in Southern California. Page was a prominent figure in the hate rock world who had links to different hate groups. Dr. Simi recently co-authored (with Robert Futrell, University of Nevada, Las Vegas) the book American Swastika: Inside the White Power Movement's Hidden Spaces of Hate. His research on extremist movements has been funded by the National Institute of Justice, Department of Homeland Security, and the Harry Frank Guggenheim Foundation. The interview was conducted this morning by Center director Prof. Brian Levin, who has also studied hate rock and was formerly the Associate Director of the Southern Poverty Law Center's Klanwatch and Militia Task Force in the 1990s. Both will appear on MSNBC's Hardball with Chris Matthews this evening at 7PM EST
When did you first meet Wade Page and what was he generally like at that time?
I met Page in 2001 while I was conducting fieldwork studying white supremacist groups in Southern California. Page had recently moved to Orange County, California and was living with another research subject I already knew. Wade was immediately friendly and didn't seem to have any problems with me hanging around doing research. He actually seemed to enjoy talking about his beliefs and at times I think he hoped to convert me. There were times when he was a little quiet and awkward but other times he seemed to loosen up and would joke around a lot. He definitely had a drinking problem and would pass out regularly. His heavy drinking made it hard for him to get to work.
Who was Page affiliated with and what types of activities was he involved in?
When I first met Page he was new to Southern California but he'd been around the white supremacist movement for a while. In Southern California he was spending time with a lot of different groups and was very involved in the white power music scene playing guitar in bands and trying to help promote shows. He had contacts with the National Alliance, Hammerskin Nation, different Klan groups, Volksfront and various other groups active in the white supremacist movement.
more: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/brian-levin-jd/exclusive-interview-with_b_1751181.html
In 1992 Fort Bragg was also a recruiting centre for white hate groups including the National
¬snip¬
But at the time Fort Bragg was also a recruiting centre for white hate groups including the National Alliance, once regarded as one of the most effective such groups and also among the most extreme because it openly glorified Adolf Hitler. The Military Law Review at the time reported that National Alliance flags were openly hung in barracks and, out of uniform, soldiers sported neo-Nazi symbols and played records about killing blacks and Jews.
"White supremacists have a natural attraction to the army," the Military Law Review said. "They often see themselves as warriors, superbly fit and well-trained in survivalist techniques and weapons and poised for the ultimate conflict with various races."
In 1995, two soldiers with the 82nd Airborne murdered a black couple in Fayetteville, the city neighbouring Fort Bragg, in a racially motivated attack.
Others serving at the base during the 1990s were arrested for hoarding ammunition in preparation for an attack on businesses, including media organisations, owned by African Americans and Jews. Soldiers were also arrested as members of skinhead gangs involved in assaults.
more:http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/aug/07/wade-michael-page-wisconsin-shooting?newsfeed=true
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021087302#post4
yardwork
(61,539 posts)I knew that this would not be a popular thread when I posted it. I'm not going to be intimidated into not asking questions about a military that I help support and pay for. It's my obligation as a citizen to ask questions. More of us need to ask questions.
jimspice
(2 posts)Our friends at the Sikh Temple of Wisconsin obviously have a lot on their minds right now. To ease their burden somewhat, the Interfaith Conference of Greater Milwaukee has stepped forward to accept online donations to the temples Victims Memorial Fund at http://www.SikhHelp.org/. Contributions are processed securely online through the ICoGM PayPal account, and all proceeds will be transferred directly to the temple. The ICoGM is a tax exempt 501(c)(3) organization, so your donation may be claimed as a charitable contribution for tax purposes.
If you prefer to donate the old fashioned way, check or money order can be sent via snail mail to:
Victim Memorial Fund c/o Sikh Temple of Wisconsin
7512 S. Howell Ave.
Oak Creek, WI 53154
You can also help spread the work by Liking and Sharing the SikhHelp.org Facebook page at http://www.facebook.com/SikhHelp
hack89
(39,171 posts)it does a pretty good job of weeding them out but a young man with a clean record can slip through the cracks if they stay on the straight and narrow while on active duty.
kestrel91316
(51,666 posts)because the higher ups find them useful idiots in wartime I'm sure. And there are also likely cells of radical fundies. Heck, the fundies are filling the officer ranks of the USAF and have been trying to drum a friend's husband out on some BS over a verbal argument with a civilian. The husband is PAGAN. They don't like that, but can't get rid of him for that so they tried to trump up this other BS.
yardwork
(61,539 posts)I've read articles quoting older servicemen who say that things started changing drastically in the 2000s.
kestrel91316
(51,666 posts)He was less religious than my cats. If he were alive, I suspect he would be completely appalled by the religious influence on his employer.
yardwork
(61,539 posts)LeftyMom
(49,212 posts)groups, though there are token minorities who are prominent dominionists, they're nearly homeopathic in their concentration in the overall group.
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)The superiors at Bragg knew this was a problem even before McVeigh became a household name
Vurz
(7 posts)I remember reading a report on the laxity being shown on recruiting rules during the Bush administration. This isn't a link to that article, although is mentions some of the problems they were having : http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-report/browse-all-issues/2006/summer/a-few-bad-men
lunatica
(53,410 posts)If I recall correctly they were having a hard time recruiting volunteers when the wars got uglier than they thought with the televised beheadings of Americans and other civilians. It wasn't some secret but I think most people didn't know about it. I'm sure I learned about it right here on DU.
Welcome to DU
Odin2005
(53,521 posts)...who takes anything from Alex Jones as gospel truth, he was also stationed at Ft. Bragg when he wasn't serving in Iraq. There must be a nasty clique of RW nuts acting as a bad influence of new servicemen.
yardwork
(61,539 posts)I read about white supremacists in the military. I read about extremist right-wing Christians in the military. What's going on?
kestrel91316
(51,666 posts)quite a while, though some heroic lawsuits seem to have brought that to an end. But the products of that place are now well up in the ranks. The dominionists want to control the nukes. That's what the whole thing is about. And they want a military coup a la The Handmaid's Tale.