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Wed Aug 1, 2012, 06:59 AM

Syrian rebels execute pro-Assad militiamen in Aleppo

Source: Yahoo / Reuters

AMMAN (Reuters) - Footage showing the apparent execution of four men loyal to President Bashar al-Assad and piles of bodies of government militiamen in a police station suggest that rebels are using the same tactics for which the Syrian leader's own forces have been condemned.

A video on YouTube shows four purported militiamen being led into a crowded yard before a prolonged barrage of gunfire is unleashed as people chant "God is Greater". As the smoke clears, a crumpled pile of bodies can be seen by a wall.

The execution appeared to have been carried out in a schoolyard at an undisclosed location in Aleppo. It took place as Assad's forces attacked residential neighborhoods with artillery and from the air to try to drive out the rebels.

In the video, which could not be independently confirmed, the men were identified as members of the pro-Assad "shabbiha" militia from the Berri family. At least two of them were in their underwear as they were led down a flight of stairs and lined up in front of a wall.

Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/syrian-rebels-execute-pro-assad-militiamen-aleppo-102829158.html

25 replies, 3489 views

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Arrow 25 replies Author Time Post
Reply Syrian rebels execute pro-Assad militiamen in Aleppo (Original post)
dipsydoodle Aug 2012 OP
leveymg Aug 2012 #1
joshcryer Aug 2012 #4
nanabugg Aug 2012 #22
Dokkie Aug 2012 #8
customerserviceguy Aug 2012 #2
Scootaloo Aug 2012 #3
joshcryer Aug 2012 #6
LanternWaste Aug 2012 #18
hobbit709 Aug 2012 #5
DetlefK Aug 2012 #7
Igel Aug 2012 #11
Comrade Grumpy Aug 2012 #14
DetlefK Aug 2012 #16
bettydavis Aug 2012 #9
Igel Aug 2012 #12
riderinthestorm Aug 2012 #15
The Magistrate Aug 2012 #10
dipsydoodle Aug 2012 #19
The Magistrate Aug 2012 #20
dipsydoodle Aug 2012 #21
joshcryer Aug 2012 #23
The Magistrate Aug 2012 #25
joshcryer Aug 2012 #24
JustABozoOnThisBus Aug 2012 #13
Steerpike Aug 2012 #17

Response to dipsydoodle (Original post)

Wed Aug 1, 2012, 07:05 AM

1. And, helping these guys take over Syria is "humanitarian"? How so?

And the more we "help", the worse it's going to get there.

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Response to leveymg (Reply #1)

Wed Aug 1, 2012, 07:21 AM

4. Yeah, the "militiamen" have never excuted anyone.

Raining down munitions on parts of a city = practical warfare not execution of innocents.

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Response to joshcryer (Reply #4)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 07:59 PM

22. Men in underwear named as militiamen. Sounds like picking men up in the desert and

 

naming them al-quaeda.

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Response to leveymg (Reply #1)


Response to dipsydoodle (Original post)

Wed Aug 1, 2012, 07:17 AM

2. The Who said it all

"Meet the new boss, same as the old boss."

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Response to dipsydoodle (Original post)

Wed Aug 1, 2012, 07:18 AM

3. The "Good Guys," ladies and gentlemen

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #3)

Wed Aug 1, 2012, 07:25 AM

6. The French executed many nazi's. This sort of thing is expected in warfare.

The Mussolini's aren't going to have much of a chance.

Note: I do denounce these war crimes, but since the opposition is considered, even by those here on these very forums, as belligerents, they have no protections themselves. I've heard it said many a time that they're "terrorists." So, while they may be committing war crimes they have no protections against war crimes against them. "Unlawful combatants." Kill 'em en masse.

There's a reason they're going to these extremes. It's 1) to send a message and 2) to recruit others.

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Response to joshcryer (Reply #6)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 01:25 PM

18. I was thinking the same thing.

I was thinking the same thing. When we place any armed conflict into the context of history, we are forced to realize that what may or may not be done in one particular conflict is rarely indicative of the ultimate agenda of that conflict. The French Marquis in WW2 as you alluded to, the Belgian White Lady in WW1, the Soviet partisans fighting in German occupied Russia were all very, very guilty of assassinations, executions, kidnappings, etc. Each aforementioned group now considered by the historical record as "heroic" in their actions and deeds.

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Response to dipsydoodle (Original post)

Wed Aug 1, 2012, 07:23 AM

5. Show me any bloody change in government in history where that didn't happen.

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Response to dipsydoodle (Original post)

Wed Aug 1, 2012, 08:12 AM

7. The only sensible thing to do.

"How could you? These are human beings you are talking about!"
I know. But this is war over there.

A light guerilla-force, no heavy weapons, no military vehicles, no air-support. Their only strategic advantage is their mobility and they are already slowed down by the basic need not to further endanger fellow refugees.

What are they supposed to do with prisoners?
Let them go?
Detain them? Where? Unlike Assad they don't have police-stations, military-bases or prisons. They don't have any static installations at all.
And they sure have no spare ressources to waste on prisoners.

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Response to DetlefK (Reply #7)

Wed Aug 1, 2012, 03:00 PM

11. Works both ways.

A US squadron gets a group of Iraqi insurgents to surrender, but gets word that they're going to have to be airlifted out because their retreat route is cut off. Can't take them, can't set them free, leave a pile of bodies. Given that all empathy is for the enemy, it's got to be declared a war crime and instead of asking, "What were they supposed to do with prisoners?" we demand that our side enforce the Geneva Conventions and punish them.

You go into a house with militants in Afghanistan and you have them outgunned, but it's you and your 5 patrol buddies. If you wait you suspect reinforcements will show up, and you need to get out of there. You can't take 15 people prisoner and hike back 10 miles to base with them. If you let them free they'll snipe at you all the way back to base. So you shoot your prisoners in self defense and out of convenience.

The response would be, "US out of Iraq! US out of Afghanistan." No need to be there. Leave.

The rebels didn't count the cost of their uprising. They are really pissed that the West didn't come in to bail them out. Sorry. Not my problem. The ant hill's kicked over, the fire ants are swarming, and it's a mess.

Same standards for both sides, with demerits for Assad's being a dictator (albeit one that prominent (D) called a reformer and partner for peace just a few short political years ago) and bonus points for an established government's need to maintain order.

Assad Jr isn't good, but he was no Assad Sr. He's quickly being shaped and moulded into one.

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Response to DetlefK (Reply #7)

Wed Aug 1, 2012, 03:40 PM

14. You're advocating for the summary execution of prisoners? Cute.

The FSA actually is detaining prisoners in facilities they have seized. CNN's Nick Robertson was at one of them today.

There is no excuse for executing prisoners, even if they are inconvenient. That goes for all sides.

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Response to Comrade Grumpy (Reply #14)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 08:13 AM

16. I do not dispute that it's inhuman, cold and a war-crime.

Of course it's better to maintain some kind of civility in war: If I treat my prisoners well, the other side might treat me well if I become their prisoner. If I don't pillage, then maybe they won't pillage and so on.

The problem with these prisoners of the FSA is the indiscriminate shelling of the syrian military. There aren't enough installations to hold all of these prisoners and the FSA can't risk being bogged down to defend a specific house.
Then there are other problems like transporting prisoners, recruiting and arming prison-guards, providing medical supplies and food. The FSA doesn't have the capacities and the resources for all of that.

This leaves only two options: release or execution.
Release harbors its very own difficulties as these prisoners are either soldiers who decided to kill their own people in the name of the regime, or they are members of an alawite militia, fighting for their lives as they fear ethnic cleansing once the Assad-regime goes down. If you release them, 9 in 10 will come back to fight you.

Considering all these arguments, execution is the rational thing to do.
But we are humans and we should cling to our humanity especially in the worst of times. That's why execution is at the same time the wrong thing to do.

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Response to dipsydoodle (Original post)

Wed Aug 1, 2012, 10:42 AM

9. do not be fooled....we have no idea who is who in this thing

they could be Assad loyalists executing men thinking about defecting and making it look like it was rebels. That could be a pile of would-be defectors, we know nothing. We can't trust pictures or video anymore. This is why you avoid armed conflict AT ALL COSTS because you can't put the paste back in the tube...god help them all. What a frickin mess.

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Response to bettydavis (Reply #9)

Wed Aug 1, 2012, 03:22 PM

12. Sorry.

The moment we could no longer trust videos or pictures (according to some)) just happened to be when they started showing "our" side was also the bad guy.

Before that, even when it was pretty clearly proven that the video or picture wasn't what it was claimed to be we could still trust videos and pictures.

It's picking the data and data sourced based upon what we want to show. If it supports us, it's true, whatever its reliability. If it undermines us, it's false, whatever it's reliability.

You're right, we have no idea who's in this video. It's largely a PR war from where we sit, and we have no control over the sources and no way to validate the content or origin of what we're given. Then again, this has been true straight along. But to say this 3 months ago was to be tarred a staunch Assad supporter.

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Response to Igel (Reply #12)

Wed Aug 1, 2012, 03:57 PM

15. Spot on.

"You're right, we have no idea who's in this video. It's largely a PR war from where we sit, and we have no control over the sources and no way to validate the content or origin of what we're given. Then again, this has been true straight along. But to say this 3 months ago was to be tarred a staunch Assad supporter."


Ain't that the damn truth. We don't know what's going on. Syria is the crucible for so many other forces internally and externally that proceeding without having the truth is going to produce nasty blowback - on us especially but on innocent civilians in Syria the hardest.

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Response to dipsydoodle (Original post)

Wed Aug 1, 2012, 11:14 AM

10. Welcome To the Wonderful World Of Revolution And Civil war, Sir

Mr. Guevara, whom you adopt as avatar, presided over a number of executions of persons who opposed his revolution....

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Response to The Magistrate (Reply #10)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 03:15 PM

19. That is not an accurate statement

re. Che Guevara.

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Response to dipsydoodle (Reply #19)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 04:05 PM

20. Do Not Try And Pretend To Me, Sir

The revolution which over-threw Batista certainly executed some prisoners, and definitely executed numerous opponents after it took power. Not a complaint, mind: in many instances they were people badly needed shooting. But do not try and pretend it did not occur. Doubtless it was done out of love for the people, as a revolutionary ought be animated, but it was done....

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Response to The Magistrate (Reply #20)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 06:29 PM

21. a number of executions of persons.......

How many people did Che Guevara kill?

It is indisputable that Guevara personally shot individuals during wartime and a "revolution". Jon Lee Anderson, the author of the definitive 800 + page biography "Che Guevara: A Revolutionary Life" notes several (around 10) documented examples of men who were shot personally by Guevara or on his command for a number of "crimes" during the guerrilla phase in Cuba - including desertion, stealing rations, raping a peasant, being an informer (chivato) etc. Anderson also notes the 55 executions at La Cabana that were carried out in instances where Guevara had the final appellate say on whether to suspend or lessen the death sentences handed down by the 3 man revolutionary tribunals (whether Che personally "killed" these he refused to pardon I guess could be a matter of debate).

So the answer is probably close to 10 personally during war time (not including battles which would probably be another 10-20 in an array of battles). As for those killed on his orders - after the Cuban revolution between 55 (Anderson) and several hundred (other biographers) War Criminals were executed at La Cabana in cases where Che had the final say on whether to pardon them.

As for whether the death penalty was justified, remember that 20,000 Cubans had been killed with many more tortured during the former U.S.-backed Batista dictatorship, and Che was in charge of exacting "revolutionary justice" for the victorious side in a revolution.

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20091230060828AACW1gh

None of those referenced above would be classed as innocents. A simple search will confirm the killing of innocents by Syrian rebels and hence your comparison is odious.


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Response to dipsydoodle (Reply #21)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 08:11 PM

23. There's no way to know if all La Cabaņa people were guilty.

Che signed off on all of those executions. I highly doubt every single one of them was innocent. In times like these people find it politically viable or lucrative to make up charges against other people (either to get their position or get them out of the way).

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Response to dipsydoodle (Reply #21)

Fri Aug 3, 2012, 01:57 AM

25. Thank You For Confirming My Point, Sir

Nobody but you has said anything about anyone being innocent, and my comment on Guevara specifically stated my view that most he was responsible for killing probably were worth shooting. As to the people referenced in the original post, you have no idea who they were or what the actual reason for their killing may be, and for you to state categorically they 'were innocent' would be as worthless as it would be for someone else here to state categorically they 'were murderers' properly dealt with by revolutionary justice.

In circumstances of revolution and civil war, people are killed, often for reasons that seem extraordinarily flimsy in retrospect, though of course, the dead remain dead....

"The dead know only it is better to be alive."

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Response to The Magistrate (Reply #20)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 08:16 PM

24. His middling in the Congo likely killed more innocents.

Either directly or indirectly. The Cuban affair I suspect some were killed to climb the ladder or get rid of someone that they didn't want (it's impossible for a tribunal to get it right 100% of the time, just as Salem Witch Trials, etc).

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Response to dipsydoodle (Original post)

Wed Aug 1, 2012, 03:25 PM

13. Meet the new boss. nt

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Response to dipsydoodle (Original post)

Thu Aug 2, 2012, 01:04 PM

17. well

I predict that we will finance enough carnage to overthrow the dictator and then a Muslim Government will form and they will use the money and weapons we gave them against us...

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