Sun Jul 22, 2012, 11:27 AM
kpete (38,893 posts)
Tea Party Senator: Keeping Guns From ‘Demented Individuals’ Will ‘Restrict Our Freedoms’
Source: Think Progress
Tea Party Senator: Keeping Guns From ‘Demented Individuals’ Will ‘Restrict Our Freedoms’ By Aviva Shen posted from ThinkProgress Justice on Jul 22, 2012 at 11:10 am Responding to the tragic shooting in Colorado during an appearance on Fox News Sunday, Sen. Ron Johnson (R-WI) said he would oppose gun control efforts that could be used to “restrict our freedoms” and instead suggested arming “responsible” people to combat “sick, demented individuals who want to do harm.” Johnson also argued that any additional measures to restrict large gun magazines that carry 100 rounds of ammunition — similar to the high-capacity clip that the alleged Colorado shooter employed — would infringe on Americans’ Second Amendment rights: JOHNSON: People will talk about unusually lethal weapons, that could be potentially a discussion you could have. But the fact of the matter is there are 30-round magazines that are just common. You simply can’t keep these weapons out of the hands of sick, demented individuals who want to do harm. And when you try to do it, you restrict our freedoms. Read more: http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2012/07/22/561611/tea-party-senator-keeping-guns-from-demented-individuals-will-restrict-our-freedoms/
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112 replies, 11022 views
| Author | Time | Post | |
| kpete | Jul 2012 | OP | |
| randr | Jul 2012 | #1 | |
| primavera | Jul 2012 | #106 | |
| SHRED | Jul 2012 | #2 | |
| fascisthunter | Jul 2012 | #3 | |
| RVN VET | Jul 2012 | #4 | |
| Tejas | Jul 2012 | #33 | |
| TheCowsCameHome | Jul 2012 | #5 | |
| onehandle | Jul 2012 | #6 | |
| bowens43 | Jul 2012 | #7 | |
| Mosaic | Jul 2012 | #8 | |
| Spitfire of ATJ | Jul 2012 | #9 | |
| coalition_unwilling | Jul 2012 | #10 | |
| Paladin | Jul 2012 | #11 | |
| askeptic | Jul 2012 | #21 | |
| Ikonoklast | Jul 2012 | #22 | |
| Paladin | Jul 2012 | #29 | |
| awoke_in_2003 | Jul 2012 | #38 | |
| Paladin | Jul 2012 | #49 | |
| 4th law of robotics | Jul 2012 | #12 | |
| boppers | Jul 2012 | #92 | |
| 4th law of robotics | Jul 2012 | #94 | |
| boppers | Jul 2012 | #95 | |
| 4th law of robotics | Jul 2012 | #96 | |
| boppers | Jul 2012 | #98 | |
| 4th law of robotics | Jul 2012 | #99 | |
| boppers | Jul 2012 | #100 | |
| 4th law of robotics | Jul 2012 | #102 | |
| boppers | Jul 2012 | #108 | |
| 4th law of robotics | Jul 2012 | #110 | |
| The Doctor. | Jul 2012 | #93 | |
| surrealAmerican | Jul 2012 | #13 | |
| wandy | Jul 2012 | #14 | |
| SILVER__FOX52 | Jul 2012 | #15 | |
| Odin2005 | Jul 2012 | #16 | |
| truthisfreedom | Jul 2012 | #17 | |
| adigal | Jul 2012 | #18 | |
| hack89 | Jul 2012 | #19 | |
| adigal | Jul 2012 | #45 | |
| hack89 | Jul 2012 | #47 | |
| primavera | Jul 2012 | #59 | |
| hack89 | Jul 2012 | #60 | |
| primavera | Jul 2012 | #61 | |
| hack89 | Jul 2012 | #63 | |
| lastlib | Jul 2012 | #64 | |
| hack89 | Jul 2012 | #65 | |
| lastlib | Jul 2012 | #82 | |
| primavera | Jul 2012 | #66 | |
| hack89 | Jul 2012 | #67 | |
| primavera | Jul 2012 | #68 | |
| hack89 | Jul 2012 | #69 | |
| primavera | Jul 2012 | #70 | |
| hack89 | Jul 2012 | #71 | |
| hack89 | Jul 2012 | #72 | |
| primavera | Jul 2012 | #76 | |
| hack89 | Jul 2012 | #78 | |
| primavera | Jul 2012 | #79 | |
| hack89 | Jul 2012 | #81 | |
| primavera | Jul 2012 | #83 | |
| DiverDave | Jul 2012 | #111 | |
| hack89 | Jul 2012 | #112 | |
| adigal | Jul 2012 | #74 | |
| Hoyt | Jul 2012 | #77 | |
| 4th law of robotics | Jul 2012 | #26 | |
| adigal | Jul 2012 | #46 | |
| 4th law of robotics | Jul 2012 | #57 | |
| adigal | Jul 2012 | #73 | |
| 4th law of robotics | Jul 2012 | #75 | |
| wordpix | Jul 2012 | #85 | |
| adigal | Jul 2012 | #91 | |
| wordpix | Jul 2012 | #97 | |
| bucolic_frolic | Jul 2012 | #20 | |
| wordpix | Jul 2012 | #86 | |
| lunatica | Jul 2012 | #23 | |
| lastlib | Jul 2012 | #53 | |
| iamthebandfanman | Jul 2012 | #24 | |
| valerief | Jul 2012 | #25 | |
| Coyotl | Jul 2012 | #27 | |
| AtheistCrusader | Jul 2012 | #58 | |
| Loudly | Jul 2012 | #28 | |
| patrice | Jul 2012 | #30 | |
| Botany | Jul 2012 | #31 | |
| primavera | Jul 2012 | #80 | |
| patrice | Jul 2012 | #32 | |
| Politicalboi | Jul 2012 | #34 | |
| Worried senior | Jul 2012 | #35 | |
| Kablooie | Jul 2012 | #36 | |
| ecdab | Jul 2012 | #37 | |
| lastlib | Jul 2012 | #62 | |
| baldguy | Jul 2012 | #39 | |
| undeterred | Jul 2012 | #40 | |
| alterfurz | Jul 2012 | #43 | |
| hamsterjill | Jul 2012 | #41 | |
| baldguy | Jul 2012 | #44 | |
| primavera | Jul 2012 | #56 | |
| Brigid | Jul 2012 | #42 | |
| Liberal_Stalwart71 | Jul 2012 | #48 | |
| firenewt | Jul 2012 | #50 | |
| Democrats_win | Jul 2012 | #51 | |
| lastlib | Jul 2012 | #52 | |
| primavera | Jul 2012 | #55 | |
| kestrel91316 | Jul 2012 | #54 | |
| calimary | Jul 2012 | #84 | |
| hughee99 | Jul 2012 | #87 | |
| Zoeisright | Jul 2012 | #88 | |
| markpkessinger | Jul 2012 | #89 | |
| Canuckistanian | Jul 2012 | #90 | |
| liberal N proud | Jul 2012 | #101 | |
| Enrique | Jul 2012 | #103 | |
| gopiscrap | Jul 2012 | #104 | |
| Scuba | Jul 2012 | #105 | |
| MrValentine | Jul 2012 | #107 | |
| and-justice-for-all | Jul 2012 | #109 |
Response to kpete (Original post)
Sun Jul 22, 2012, 11:28 AM
randr (4,681 posts)
1. There can be no freedom without responsibility
Response to randr (Reply #1)
Thu Jul 26, 2012, 09:12 PM
primavera (5,137 posts)
106. Are you kidding?
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America is the promised land of freedom without responsibility!
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Response to kpete (Original post)
Sun Jul 22, 2012, 11:29 AM
SHRED (10,106 posts)
2. Does he apply this "logic" to drug laws?
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Of course not because only dopes wage war on weed. -- |
Response to kpete (Original post)
Sun Jul 22, 2012, 11:34 AM
fascisthunter (28,608 posts)
3. Yes, you are a demented person
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therefore, we wouldn't want to restrict your freedoms.
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Response to kpete (Original post)
Sun Jul 22, 2012, 11:35 AM
RVN VET (220 posts)
4. Johnson represents the NRA
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And he's also a bloody fool. This is not a time to let these wankers get away mouthing the talking points of the NRA. This is a time to challenge the bastards and take them to task both for their obvious lack of giving a damn about the victims of the massacre and the insanity of their stance on the "rights" of Americans to purchase, load, and use weapons that are specifically designed to kill human beings.
It would be nice, wouldn't it, if the vast majority of the Country, the horrified 90% or so, actually had a goddam voice in Congress, and in the media, to call these whores and fools to task for advocating open access to the tools of slaughter. |
Response to RVN VET (Reply #4)
Sun Jul 22, 2012, 02:56 PM
Tejas (4,759 posts)
33. So does Harry Reid, so what?
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The OMFG-BIG-BAD-NRA card is old hat.
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Response to kpete (Original post)
Sun Jul 22, 2012, 11:36 AM
TheCowsCameHome (27,696 posts)
5. Demented Individuals / Tea Party. What a perfect fit in the same sentence .
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You can't beat that title.
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Response to kpete (Original post)
Sun Jul 22, 2012, 11:44 AM
onehandle (35,437 posts)
6. National Republican Association shill. nt
Response to kpete (Original post)
Sun Jul 22, 2012, 11:45 AM
bowens43 (14,360 posts)
7. this is your typical NRA gun lover......
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the gun lovers won't be happy until a developmentally challenged 6 year old can walk into the 7-11 and buy an Uzi for 50 cents....
There can be no freedom in an armed society.... |
Response to kpete (Original post)
Sun Jul 22, 2012, 11:46 AM
Mosaic (1,346 posts)
8. Good old liberal media
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Last edited Sun Jul 22, 2012, 11:49 AM USA/ET - Edit history (1) Letting the idiots who talk loudest get the soapbox. Shame on Think Progress. I got tired of their style of journalism. It is self defeating, to only fight the evil, without solutions and answers. Just debating morons in Congress, etc. is not going to solve the real problems we have. It takes more brains to solve problems, not debate talking points of lairs and crooks.
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Response to kpete (Original post)
Sun Jul 22, 2012, 11:54 AM
Spitfire of ATJ (7,366 posts)
9. I love how a thinking person can hear this crap and,.....
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Oh wait,....a lot of them don't bother voting.....
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Response to kpete (Original post)
Sun Jul 22, 2012, 11:55 AM
coalition_unwilling (14,180 posts)
10. Wisconsin sacrificed Feingold for this Yahoo? Oy vey - n/t
Response to kpete (Original post)
Sun Jul 22, 2012, 12:03 PM
Paladin (8,687 posts)
11. This Teapartier Isn't Saying Anything........
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.....that the "Democrats" in DU's Gun Control/RKBA group don't post on a daily basis.
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Response to Paladin (Reply #11)
Sun Jul 22, 2012, 12:59 PM
askeptic (179 posts)
21. ...and we all know real "Democrats" all think like you
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GMAFB
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Response to askeptic (Reply #21)
Sun Jul 22, 2012, 01:11 PM
Ikonoklast (21,631 posts)
22. Do you agree with the senator from Wisconsin then?
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GMAFB...indeed.
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Response to Ikonoklast (Reply #22)
Sun Jul 22, 2012, 02:49 PM
Paladin (8,687 posts)
29. Prove Me Wrong, Then GFY........
Response to Paladin (Reply #29)
Sun Jul 22, 2012, 04:19 PM
awoke_in_2003 (18,500 posts)
38. Ikonoclast...
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Wasn't responding to your post- he was telling the person that told you to GMAFB to GMAFB. so, you are telling the wrong person to fuck themselves.
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Response to awoke_in_2003 (Reply #38)
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 09:36 AM
Paladin (8,687 posts)
49. My Apologies.
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Since I walked away from the shooting sports, my aim is sometimes faulty......
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Response to kpete (Original post)
Sun Jul 22, 2012, 12:11 PM
4th law of robotics (6,801 posts)
12. Title is a bit misleading
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he didn't say keeping them away from demented individuals would harm our freedoms.
He said the efforts required to keep them away from demented individuals would. This guy had no mental health issues prior to the shooting (none diagnosed anyway). So it's a non-issue anyway. |
Response to 4th law of robotics (Reply #12)
Tue Jul 24, 2012, 01:02 AM
boppers (16,588 posts)
92. He bought a lot of ammunition.
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That's a clear sign of mental illness, right there.
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Response to boppers (Reply #92)
Tue Jul 24, 2012, 08:54 AM
4th law of robotics (6,801 posts)
94. A) no it isn't
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B) 6,000 rounds sounds like a lot to someone who is not familiar with a gun. You can shoot off that many in one day at the range. And you ought to if you just purchased a gun to become familiar with it.
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Response to 4th law of robotics (Reply #94)
Wed Jul 25, 2012, 01:04 AM
boppers (16,588 posts)
95. Uhm, if you take 6,000 rounds to figure out a weapon, I'll be happy to teach you.
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I can probably get you at a decent grouping in under 50.
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Response to boppers (Reply #95)
Wed Jul 25, 2012, 09:05 AM
4th law of robotics (6,801 posts)
96. Ahahahahahaha
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Yeah, I'm sure you take exactly 50 rounds to the range.
Did you learn how to shoot in the Core? |
Response to 4th law of robotics (Reply #96)
Thu Jul 26, 2012, 12:04 AM
boppers (16,588 posts)
98. Idiots take 5 rounds to zero in.
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They get tagged "snipers".
Morons take a bit more. |
Response to boppers (Reply #98)
Thu Jul 26, 2012, 08:59 AM
4th law of robotics (6,801 posts)
99. Truly the worst people in the planet
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are those who practice with their guns until they are proficient.
Geniuses like yourself can just pick up a gun and hit a bullseye on the first shot. /a legend in his own mind. Boppers was captain in the imperial marine core during the kickass-wars. |
Response to 4th law of robotics (Reply #99)
Thu Jul 26, 2012, 12:46 PM
boppers (16,588 posts)
100. No, I've been shooting since I was 6.
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I've been teaching others to shoot since I was 12.
If a person needs 20 rounds to understand their weapon, their sights, etc., then they are probably "self taught", and are basically learning by trial and error. It's not very efficient. |
Response to boppers (Reply #100)
Thu Jul 26, 2012, 12:49 PM
4th law of robotics (6,801 posts)
102. You're the only "expert" I've seen advocating shooting less to become more proficient
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perhaps every other expert on the planet is wrong.
Or . . . perhaps occams razor comes in to effect. |
Response to 4th law of robotics (Reply #102)
Fri Jul 27, 2012, 12:22 AM
boppers (16,588 posts)
108. Except I'm not advocating that.
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I'm pointing out that if your shooting basics are wrong at 10 rounds, another 100 or even 1,000 rounds aren't going to fix that.
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Response to boppers (Reply #108)
Fri Jul 27, 2012, 09:29 AM
4th law of robotics (6,801 posts)
110. So you're argument against firing 1000 rounds . . . ?
Response to 4th law of robotics (Reply #12)
Tue Jul 24, 2012, 03:14 AM
The Doctor. (17,266 posts)
93. But it's true nonetheless...
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If we restrict demented persons' access to guns, then tea party people will indeed have have their 'freedom' to own guns curtailed.
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Response to kpete (Original post)
Sun Jul 22, 2012, 12:11 PM
surrealAmerican (7,478 posts)
13. This Senator's a complete wacko.
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Last edited Sun Jul 22, 2012, 12:13 PM USA/ET - Edit history (1) He's proposing a sort of arms race between the criminally insane and "responsible" gun owners. Who in their right mind would think that would lead to a safer country?
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Response to kpete (Original post)
Sun Jul 22, 2012, 12:16 PM
wandy (1,530 posts)
14. Another gem from the Teapublican alternate reality......
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If their were only some kind of "drug test" that could determine if a person was a "sick, demented individual who want to do harm" a considerable amount of our gun problems would be gone.
Yes guns would still be involved in roberys and crimes of passion. If only people like James Holmes could somehow not pass the required sanity test......... Unfortunately even in the alternate reality of a Moose, this just isn't passable. |
Response to kpete (Original post)
Sun Jul 22, 2012, 12:20 PM
SILVER__FOX52 (535 posts)
15. This guy is a clown.
Response to kpete (Original post)
Sun Jul 22, 2012, 12:27 PM
Odin2005 (48,255 posts)
16. So he is implying the 'baggers are dememnted, which is true.
Response to kpete (Original post)
Sun Jul 22, 2012, 12:38 PM
truthisfreedom (17,677 posts)
17. I hope they all speak up. All of the teabaggers.
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America should see them for what they are.
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Response to kpete (Original post)
Sun Jul 22, 2012, 12:44 PM
adigal (4,703 posts)
18. Gret read on daily Kos yesterday - it is an AMENDMENT.
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Last edited Sun Jul 22, 2012, 12:44 PM USA/ET - Edit history (1) Was added, and not part of the original constitution. This is not some holy right, untouchable.
This amendment leads to many, many murders. |
Response to adigal (Reply #18)
Sun Jul 22, 2012, 12:47 PM
hack89 (21,258 posts)
19. The entire Bill of Rights are AMENDMENTs!!!
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you need to read some history for christ's sakes. The BoR was added to ensure that American's civil liberties were recognized and protected.
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Response to hack89 (Reply #19)
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 08:53 AM
adigal (4,703 posts)
45. I have a history minor, thank you
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Some of the amendments are no,longer applicable, like this one. It is not written in stone. That is my point. The amendments make the constitution flexible.
And you need to learn some manners. |
Response to adigal (Reply #45)
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 09:09 AM
hack89 (21,258 posts)
47. They are no longer applicable when the American people make that decision.
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So far they have not. And I doubt they ever will in your life time.
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Response to hack89 (Reply #47)
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 02:22 PM
primavera (5,137 posts)
59. The "American people" haven't made that decision
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Five extremist, right-wing, activist judges, whose opinions you and all the rest of us have appropriately ridiculed for many years, dismissed the plain wording of the constitution and 200 years of legal precedent in order to make the decision you attribute to "the American people." All it takes for a sane interpretation of the Second Amendment to be restored is the replacement of just one of those barking mad, rabid, foaming at the mouth supreme court judges with someone sane for "the American people" to reach a different decision.
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Response to primavera (Reply #59)
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 02:26 PM
hack89 (21,258 posts)
60. Good luck with that - I think you will be disappointed. . nt
Response to hack89 (Reply #60)
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 02:29 PM
primavera (5,137 posts)
61. That's alright, I'm getting used to it
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Very little occurs in this country that isn't disappointing, it's hard to not get used to it.
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Response to primavera (Reply #61)
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 02:31 PM
hack89 (21,258 posts)
63. Don't you take any pleasure in how we have drastically slashed violent crime?
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at least you are the safest you have ever been - that certainly is a encouraging thing, don't you think?
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Response to hack89 (Reply #63)
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 02:35 PM
lastlib (3,769 posts)
64. I'm sure those people in Aurora are orgasmic over it....
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(
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Response to lastlib (Reply #64)
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 02:38 PM
hack89 (21,258 posts)
65. If the world has to be perfect for you to be happy
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then you will never be happy.
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Response to hack89 (Reply #65)
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 04:37 PM
lastlib (3,769 posts)
82. I don't ask for happy, I just ask for SANE!!!
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Fercryin'outloud, PEOPLE are DYING--needlessly. Can't we just STOP KILLING??!?
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Response to hack89 (Reply #63)
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 02:52 PM
primavera (5,137 posts)
66. To some extent, but what does that have to do with guns?
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I've read any number of articles on the decline in violent crime in the US in recent years and most of them seem to consider the fact that we now have so much of our population in prisons as being the cause behind that. Not one scholar or study has attributed the decline in violent crime to more people having more guns. Given that the price we as a society pay for being physically safer is that we employ police state tactics and incarcerate more of our population than any other country on earth, I confess, my enthusiasm for even that "boon" is somewhat lukewarm.
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Response to primavera (Reply #66)
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 03:05 PM
hack89 (21,258 posts)
67. But if more guns don't result in more violence
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then there is hope that there are other avenues to reduce gun violence besides an unrealistic hope that the 2A will be reinterpreted to your liking.
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Response to hack89 (Reply #67)
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 03:09 PM
primavera (5,137 posts)
68. They don't need to result in more violence
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30,000 bullet-riddled corpses per year is quite enough, thank you. Besides, the majority of gun deaths aren't committed by violent criminals, but rather by ordinary people whose disputes get out of hand and, thanks to guns, result in a fatality.
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Response to primavera (Reply #68)
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 03:17 PM
hack89 (21,258 posts)
69. Really - so that recent spat of gang related killings in Chicago
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were just ordinary people letting their disputes get out of hand?
Pardon my bluntness, but you don't know what you are talking about. We understand the demographics of crime very well. Here is a good place to start: http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2010/crime-in-the-u.s.-2010/offenses-known-to-law-enforcement/expanded/expandhomicidemain |
Response to hack89 (Reply #69)
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 03:21 PM
primavera (5,137 posts)
70. Lol - read your own reference!
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"Of the murders for which the circumstance surrounding the murder was known, 41.8 percent of victims were murdered during arguments (including romantic triangles) in 2010. Felony circumstances (rape, robbery, burglary, etc.) accounted for 23.1 percent of murders. Circumstances were unknown for 35.8 percent of reported homicides."
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Response to primavera (Reply #70)
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 03:23 PM
hack89 (21,258 posts)
71. And drug disputes are not arguments? Got it. nt
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Last edited Mon Jul 23, 2012, 03:26 PM USA/ET - Edit history (1) |
Response to primavera (Reply #70)
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 03:27 PM
hack89 (21,258 posts)
72. Did you also look the demographic data?
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age, race, etc. ?
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Response to hack89 (Reply #72)
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 03:52 PM
primavera (5,137 posts)
76. Yes, I did. And?
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Please, by all means, continue to dazzle me with your insight. It's so thoughtful of you to keep furnishing the data to support my point of view and undermine your own. I really must thank you for saving me the trouble of having to look these numbers up for you.
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Response to primavera (Reply #76)
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 04:03 PM
hack89 (21,258 posts)
78. So do you believe that gun violence is uniformly distributed across America
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because it is just ordinary people losing their cool?
I believe that violent crime is geographically concentrated in poor urban areas - at list of the most violent places in America is a list of poor urban areas. The perpetrators and victims are predominately young men. |
Response to hack89 (Reply #78)
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 04:12 PM
primavera (5,137 posts)
79. New topic, I see
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The assertion I made, for which you were so kind as to provide hard data, was not that there are no patterns to gun-related violence, but rather that the linkage proposed by gun enthusiasts between increased gun ownership and reductions in crime rates was spurious at best, because the number of gun homicides committed in the course of a felony is greatly outnumbered by the number of gun homicides that occur in ordinary, i.e., non-criminal, disputes. As your own numbers show, that is clearly the case.
Whether gun violence is even distributed, that's a different and much more complex question, for which there are numerous, hotly contested hypotheses, most centering on prevailing economic and social conditions. I do not presume to be well enough informed on those hypotheses to have any opinion that would be meaningful, but I do not doubt that you are correct that there are patterns. |
Response to primavera (Reply #79)
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 04:22 PM
hack89 (21,258 posts)
81. I don't believe that more guns means less gun violence
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there is no data to support that.
I can prove, however, that more guns did not cause more gun violence. I am sure you can appreciate the difference. Hence my comment that there are other means to reduce gun violence. |
Response to hack89 (Reply #81)
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 04:46 PM
primavera (5,137 posts)
83. Sure, I'll go along with that
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There certainly are a great many causes underlying gun violence, if I have given a different impression, I apologize for the misunderstanding. And I agree entirely that those underlying contributors need to be addressed as well. My main concern about guns is that, at 30,000 deaths per year, we simply aren't ready for prime time; that, for whatever reasons, our culture cannot be trusted to handle guns responsibly, anymore than an infant can be trusted with a hand grenade.
I'm less sure whether more guns directly cause more gun violence or not - it's honestly kind of hard to tell when there are so many guns out there already. I mean, if the number of guns in American increases from 250 million to 300 million, would you necessarily expect to see an increase in gun violence? Either way, it's still one hell of a lot of guns - we've already got ten times the number of guns in the country needed to carry out the annual bloodbaths we are witnessing. With the country so inundated already with guns, and having been so inundated with guns for so long, I would imagine that it would be difficult to find data in this country that would demonstrate a correlation one way or another between the number of guns on the streets and the number of gun deaths. For that, I can only look to the experience of other countries that, through stricter gun control laws, have succeeded in gradually reducing the number of guns and, perhaps more importantly, in instilling in their populations' gun owners a profound sense of personal responsibility for their decision to keep and bear arms that is so conspicuously absent in this country. Those countries can now boast per capita gun death rates that are but a tiny fraction of what ours is. Admittedly, those other countries have very different prevailing economic and cultural conditions, so the extent to which their experience is directly comparable is open to dispute. But the vast difference between their gun death rates and ours suggest that, at the very least, it's worth examining closely, and perhaps emulating. |
Response to hack89 (Reply #81)
Fri Jul 27, 2012, 12:34 PM
DiverDave (3,687 posts)
111. No?
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How about Japan?, Australia?, New Zealand?
England...The list goes on. Less guns DOES equal less gun deaths. How is that so hard to understand? |
Response to DiverDave (Reply #111)
Fri Jul 27, 2012, 12:40 PM
hack89 (21,258 posts)
112. I think you missed the context of this sub-thread
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we are discussing the drastic decline of gun violence in the past 30 years - a 50% decrease in firearm murders and manslaughter deaths. At the same time there was a drastic increase in gun ownership.
I said that those stats prove that more guns does not automatically mean more gun violence. |
Response to primavera (Reply #61)
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 03:41 PM
adigal (4,703 posts)
74. Most honest post on this thread! Nt
Response to primavera (Reply #59)
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 04:01 PM
Hoyt (12,122 posts)
77. Exactly. That's why NRA, other right wing gun groups, and right wing owners are out to beat Obama.
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Guns are far more important to them than our society.
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Response to adigal (Reply #18)
Sun Jul 22, 2012, 02:42 PM
4th law of robotics (6,801 posts)
26. Like the first amendment
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I think some would take issue if we decided to alter that one.
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Response to 4th law of robotics (Reply #26)
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 08:54 AM
adigal (4,703 posts)
46. Of course, but that is still relevant. We hope.
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But a well armed militia is not.
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Response to adigal (Reply #46)
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 02:18 PM
4th law of robotics (6,801 posts)
57. Seems rather arbitrary
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can't we just trust the government to allow what speech is necessary and censor what isn't?
Why set it in stone? |
Response to 4th law of robotics (Reply #57)
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 03:40 PM
adigal (4,703 posts)
73. Freedom of speech is still relevant
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The militia the second amendment talks of is not.
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Response to adigal (Reply #73)
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 03:45 PM
4th law of robotics (6,801 posts)
75. Why? What are you worried about?
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The big government boogieman shutting down the internet or reading your mail?
Just pass-word encrypt, you'll be fine. It's not like mass protests work anymore. Maybe that made sense back in the day but now they are meaningless. |
Response to adigal (Reply #18)
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 08:06 PM
wordpix (12,478 posts)
85. so is the First that guarantees freedom of speech, right to petition, freedom of press, so
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Last edited Mon Jul 23, 2012, 08:10 PM USA/ET - Edit history (1) your point is.....????
The Amendments are just as important as the Constitution, which provides the framework for our gov. The issue here is "the right to bear arms shall not be infringed" linked to the "militia" statement. The RWers have hijacked the statement to mean any militia they want to form, not to fight a tyrant like King George in the 1770s and 1780s, but whoever THEY call a tyrant and whatever THEY determine is a tyrannical government. Plan to hear the words tyrant and tyranny thrown around a lot over the next few months by the Reich Wing. That gives them "license" to do whatever they want with their militias, in their little warped Fox News minds. |
Response to wordpix (Reply #85)
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 11:08 PM
adigal (4,703 posts)
91. Amendments can be changed or removed
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Just look at the word. The 18th amendment was modified/removed/undone, however you want to put it. The 2nd amendment is no longer relevant.
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Response to adigal (Reply #91)
Wed Jul 25, 2012, 10:55 AM
wordpix (12,478 posts)
97. good luck trying to get the 2nd amendment repealed
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Personally, I like the amendment b/c one day I might want to own a gun to protect myself against a tyrannical gov. That's what the amendment's for.
It's the lack of gun control I don't like. |
Response to kpete (Original post)
Sun Jul 22, 2012, 12:52 PM
bucolic_frolic (708 posts)
20. Where are GOP on the cost of health care for these victims?
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Treating gunshots ain't cheap.
How much cost went to health insurance companies? How much cost went to hospitals? How much to taxpayers? Putting aside the human tragedy for a moment, and maybe it's too early, but who pays for this financially? It's a cost, for or against ACA, or private insurance, it's a cost that someone has to bear. |
Response to bucolic_frolic (Reply #20)
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 08:12 PM
wordpix (12,478 posts)
86. "too bad if you can't afford it" is their policy so I don't think they'll change it for this tragedy
Response to kpete (Original post)
Sun Jul 22, 2012, 02:29 PM
lunatica (28,842 posts)
23. He probably strokes his weapons often
Response to lunatica (Reply #23)
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 01:39 PM
lastlib (3,769 posts)
53. He even fellates it at night....
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(....doesn't want it to go unsatisfied.....)
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Response to kpete (Original post)
Sun Jul 22, 2012, 02:30 PM
iamthebandfanman (6,744 posts)
24. and yet ill still go to jail for 7 days
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Last edited Sun Jul 22, 2012, 02:31 PM USA/ET - Edit history (1) if i get caught with a doobie!!
Ahhh, republican freedom... aint it grand |
Response to kpete (Original post)
Sun Jul 22, 2012, 02:37 PM
valerief (35,676 posts)
25. These assholes can spew all kinds of crazy-ass shit and as long as they say it in
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an authoritative way, the idiocracy will believe them!
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Response to kpete (Original post)
Sun Jul 22, 2012, 02:45 PM
Coyotl (5,155 posts)
27. Everyone has a right to a musket and a few lead balls in their pocket
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In 1791, the Second Amendment to the United States Constitution, part of the United States Bill of Rights, protects the right of the people to keep and bear arms.
Soooo, IF your weapons would a.) be made by a gunsmith b.) have rudimentary rifling c.) be a single-shot weapon d.) be loaded through the muzzle, and e.) fire by means of a flintlock I see no problem. BUT, nowhere does it say you can walk around with your damn musket already loaded. |
Response to Coyotl (Reply #27)
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 02:22 PM
AtheistCrusader (14,181 posts)
58. And the First Amendment only applies to moveable block-type manual press.
Response to kpete (Original post)
Sun Jul 22, 2012, 02:47 PM
Loudly (1,177 posts)
28. He means restrict our freedom to go to war with the police and the army.
Response to kpete (Original post)
Sun Jul 22, 2012, 02:52 PM
patrice (47,374 posts)
30. These fuckers mistake lack of consequences for freedom. How realistic is that? Actions have
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consequences; that's THE truth and if you can't live with the truth, YOU ARE NOT FREE.
Free? Tea Thugs do not even know the meaning of freedom. They know NOTHING about being free. They should not be allowed to use the word. |
Response to kpete (Original post)
Sun Jul 22, 2012, 02:53 PM
Botany (36,040 posts)
31. Good we need more dumb asses w/ guns who think "jeebus God" wants them to be packing
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Last edited Sun Jul 22, 2012, 02:56 PM USA/ET - Edit history (1)
These bright bulbs are on basic t.v. 24/7 (Red Jacket) being shown as normal.
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Response to Botany (Reply #31)
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 04:19 PM
primavera (5,137 posts)
80. "Available in various color schemes"
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I love it - an assault rifle to match every outfit and social occasion! Hmm, I'm going to a formal dinner tonight, I think I'll go with the burgundy paisley assault rifle. It so brings out my eyes, don't you think?
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Response to kpete (Original post)
Sun Jul 22, 2012, 02:54 PM
patrice (47,374 posts)
32. Anyone who has been around Tea Party culture lately knows it's been taken over by a branch of
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the Libertarians who are "Libertarians" for one reason and one reason only; it's an excuse to do any and all of the drugs they want.
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Response to kpete (Original post)
Sun Jul 22, 2012, 02:57 PM
Politicalboi (9,481 posts)
34. Now take out the word "guns"
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And put the word 'VOTE'. I wonder if he would be concerned.
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Response to kpete (Original post)
Sun Jul 22, 2012, 03:04 PM
Worried senior (541 posts)
35. I apologize to everyone
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that the citizens of my state saw fit to elect this person.
He is an embarrasment to those of us who didn't. |
Response to kpete (Original post)
Sun Jul 22, 2012, 03:05 PM
Kablooie (8,854 posts)
36. This argument isn't crazy!
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Because it wins every time.
There seems to be no way to ever win when the right brings up second amendment rights. It's the one right that trumps every other right in the constitution. Nothing is as important as the ability to destroy the lives of other citizens. That and the ability to destroy lives of other country's citizens are the foundations of our society today. Our country is so deeply insane that there's no way we will ever escape. |
Response to kpete (Original post)
Sun Jul 22, 2012, 03:20 PM
ecdab (835 posts)
37. The level of acceptance of people being slaughtered is depressing
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It's outrageous that somebody can carry around an AR-15 rifle, much less walk into a crowded theater and open fire. What about the people killed in that theaters freedom to simply live. Is that somehow a lesser freedom than the right to own a fancy weapon?
But like every other issue in American politics, it's about the money. As long as our election system is dictated by the raising and expenditure of cold hard cash, groups with a financial interest and the money to expend to protect that interest (in this particular case the NRA) we will see those well moneyed groups imposed their will on the balance of society because elected officials need their money and advertising assistance more than they need to enact sound policy in order to retain their positions. |
Response to ecdab (Reply #37)
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 02:30 PM
lastlib (3,769 posts)
62. It's also about the gun makers' PROFITS!!!
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Those are sacrosanct to the right-wing!
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Response to kpete (Original post)
Sun Jul 22, 2012, 04:38 PM
baldguy (30,489 posts)
39. Is he admitting that Teabaggers are demented?
Response to kpete (Original post)
Sun Jul 22, 2012, 05:57 PM
undeterred (33,222 posts)
40. That's our sick, demented Senator Dumbass.
Response to undeterred (Reply #40)
Sun Jul 22, 2012, 06:38 PM
alterfurz (1,053 posts)
43. RoJo the Clueless Clown
Response to kpete (Original post)
Sun Jul 22, 2012, 06:08 PM
hamsterjill (4,301 posts)
41. Just what could an armed responsible person have done in that theater?
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I'm so sick of the CHL defense! What could anyone with a gun have done in that theater? It was dark, there was smoke and/or tear gas. The suspect had body armor.
Even if some "responsible" person had possessed a gun, he/she would not have been effective. Shooting a gun in that atmosphere would likely have resulted in the death of more innocent people. I'm sorry but every redneck with a CHL on my Facebook page is "yee-hawing" about what he would have done in there with a gun, and it's just not that simple here. |
Response to hamsterjill (Reply #41)
Sun Jul 22, 2012, 06:41 PM
baldguy (30,489 posts)
44. They could have killed 3-4 more bystanders.
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Last edited Sun Jul 22, 2012, 06:43 PM USA/ET - Edit history (1) They wouldn't have been able to take out the shooter, though.
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Response to kpete (Original post)
Sun Jul 22, 2012, 06:25 PM
Brigid (10,550 posts)
42. OK, Senator Ron Johnson . . .
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You can be sitting in the next movie theater or other public place somebody decides to use as a shooting gallery.
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Response to kpete (Original post)
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 09:33 AM
Liberal_Stalwart71 (13,853 posts)
48. Look, this is the guy that WI voted for over Russ Feingold in 2010. Next time, VOTE!!!
Response to kpete (Original post)
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 01:11 PM
firenewt (252 posts)
50. There is no way to reason with insane people like him. He has his head so far up his ass, it is a
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medical impossibility to remove it. Our only hope for this condition is he will suffocate from all that shit.
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Response to kpete (Original post)
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 01:14 PM
Democrats_win (5,992 posts)
51. Tea party banner: Today WE are Jimmie Holmes.
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In fact the Tea Pary House plans to visit him in jail. You know, becaus the Tea party is all about doing the opposite of Obama.
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Response to kpete (Original post)
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 01:32 PM
lastlib (3,769 posts)
52. So, I guess we're to be reduced to shooting it out with the crazies.....
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...who have most of the guns.....
This strategy is not going to end well....... |
Response to lastlib (Reply #52)
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 02:12 PM
primavera (5,137 posts)
55. A new arms race
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We've already got gun nuts claiming that they need assault style weapons to adequately defend themselves from the other crazies with bigger and badder guns. Once everyone has an assault rifle, we'll need machine guns, then flame throwers, then grenades... where does it stop? When everyone is dead, I guess. Well, on the bright side, at least the other species on the planet will be better off once we've all blown ourselves to bloody bits.
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Response to kpete (Original post)
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 01:49 PM
kestrel91316 (45,387 posts)
54. Because, you know, gunfights in the street a la the Wild West will work so well in our cities
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and suburbs..........
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Response to kpete (Original post)
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 05:35 PM
calimary (30,588 posts)
84. And what about YOU restricting OUR freedoms - our freedom to be safe in our own public cinemas?
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Our freedoms to be safe from armed nutcases like your friend Holmes there, dirtbag? Since it's so damn important to you, senator, why aren't YOU stepping up and showing leadership on this, and "policing yourselves" like your type of idealogue always gets a hard-on for? I'd love to be able to tell a jerk like this - "you should deal with this problem - unless you want the rest of us to do it for you!" Of course, if the polls are to be believed, most Americans side with him, and not me. Which I Do NOT Get. At ALL.
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Response to kpete (Original post)
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 08:15 PM
hughee99 (10,106 posts)
87. How do you write a law that keeps guns out of the hands of
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undiagnosed demented individuals?
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Response to kpete (Original post)
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 09:04 PM
Zoeisright (7,828 posts)
88. The demented person in that story is that idiot Johnson.
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Fuck him.
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Response to kpete (Original post)
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 09:11 PM
markpkessinger (3,121 posts)
89. Keeping guns from the deranged would, by definition, exclude many teabaggers! n/t
Response to kpete (Original post)
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 09:32 PM
Canuckistanian (42,195 posts)
90. 'Demented individuals' are a major consitituency to Sen. Johnson
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When they can find their way to a voting booth.
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Response to kpete (Original post)
Thu Jul 26, 2012, 12:49 PM
liberal N proud (43,696 posts)
101. Getting killed by those 'Demented Individuals’ doesn't?
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Response to kpete (Original post)
Thu Jul 26, 2012, 12:50 PM
Enrique (22,617 posts)
103. in the sense that every law restricts our freedoms
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for these people to live up to their rhetoric, they should be anarchists.
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Response to kpete (Original post)
Thu Jul 26, 2012, 12:51 PM
gopiscrap (2,400 posts)
104. Demented? How about the asshole senator look in the mirror!
Response to kpete (Original post)
Thu Jul 26, 2012, 12:52 PM
Scuba (26,717 posts)
105. I'm so ashamed that he "represents" Wisconsin....
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Despite Bashing Government Aid, Ron Johnson Employs Prison Inmates With State-Run Health Care
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/10/08/ron-johnson-health-insurance_n_756385.html Johnson's companies used prison workers http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/news/104605089.html#!page=25&pageSize=10&sort=newestfirst Ron Johnson Benefits from Prison Labor -- WI Sen http://www.dailykos.com/story/2010/10/08/908859/-Ron-Johnson-Benefits-from-Prison-Labor-WI-Sen |
Response to Scuba (Reply #105)
Thu Jul 26, 2012, 09:15 PM
MrValentine (9 posts)
107. Do me a favor
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I would like it if everyone registered at Ar15.com and posted their opinions about Mitt Romney to the area of the forum called "General Discussion." I joined the site without knowing much about it and thought of it as a political discussion forum used by people from the center and center-right. However, when I said that I was to the left of Mitt Romney on many issues and criticized his debacle in Britain, I was banned from the site ... even though I did not violate their code of conduct. I had enjoyed debating people respectfully and commenting on popular topics, but I was targeted by the idiotic administrators of the site. I would greatly appreciate if all of you made at least one account with that far-right website and then made your voices known on their forum. The moderators on the site harass people into leaving the site if they have even the slightest disagreement with them.
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Response to kpete (Original post)
Fri Jul 27, 2012, 01:07 AM
and-justice-for-all (14,763 posts)
109. I get so sick of hearing these bullshit lines...
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"Keeping Guns From ‘Demented Individuals’ Will ‘Restrict Our Freedoms’. I have the right to not be shot by some one with a gun, I have the right to no carry a fucking gun.
There will come a time when the gun is no longer considered "freedom" but an imprisonment of fear and a tool of terror and suffering. Unfortunaly I will not live to see that day. |

